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Buffalo Bill's Nipple Ring · Like a Virgin

0:04
Speaker 1: That's my hannibal lector it's kind of like, UM, it's
0:10
Speaker 1: me getting my cold brew. Everyone. It's spooky season, and
0:19
Speaker 1: all month long we are, you know, revisiting some of
0:23
Speaker 1: our favorite spooky movies, trying out some new ones, also
0:27
Speaker 1: looking at some you know, larger thematic scary vibes. UM.
0:33
Speaker 1: But today we're diving into I think one of the
0:36
Speaker 1: most iconic psychological thrillers of all time that UM, I
0:41
Speaker 1: watched for the first time last year and Fran just
0:44
Speaker 1: watched for the first time, Silent to the Lambs, starring
0:46
Speaker 1: Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins. UM. It has it has
0:51
Speaker 1: everything and thrills, the chills, thrills, chills, stressing, cannibalism, UM,
0:57
Speaker 1: skin suits, nipple piercing, really good. And you know, obviously
1:02
Speaker 1: we're going to look back on it through a contemporary
1:06
Speaker 1: lens and talk about what we liked about it, what
1:09
Speaker 1: didn't like about it. UM. You know how it's sort
1:11
Speaker 1: of I think spawned the true crime genre that exists today. UM.
1:16
Speaker 1: And also it's a part of a maybe problematic or
1:19
Speaker 1: maybe not UM portrayal of gender devian people. We get
1:23
Speaker 1: into it, yes, because this is like a version of
1:26
Speaker 1: the show where we get yesterday's pop culture, today's takes,
1:29
Speaker 1: I'm rosed on you, and I'm fran Toronto. So in
1:32
Speaker 1: these in these bonus episodes this month, we will only
1:36
Speaker 1: be covering the main topic, so you'll get your news
1:39
Speaker 1: as normal on Thursday. You know, this is kind of
1:43
Speaker 1: a rare occurrence on the pod in that the cultural
1:47
Speaker 1: object that I am quote unquote introducing you to is
1:50
Speaker 1: one that is not actually super formative for me because
1:54
Speaker 1: I had never even seen Silence of the Lambs until
1:58
Speaker 1: a year ago. It was it was somehow a cultural
2:01
Speaker 1: blind spot for me. But I watched it last year,
2:05
Speaker 1: totally loved it, and um, now you've and I watched
2:09
Speaker 1: it last night and we're going to dive into it. Obviously.
2:11
Speaker 1: You know, this is one of those movies that sort
2:14
Speaker 1: of you can't exist in pop culture and not know
2:19
Speaker 1: about this film. Yeah, it was definitely a movie that
2:22
Speaker 1: swept the Oscars, was a moment in the culture. Was
2:27
Speaker 1: highly polarizing, controversial, but prestige and has you know, has
2:32
Speaker 1: been referenced and rebooted. And you know, Hannibal Lecter is
2:37
Speaker 1: such a looming figure. He's one of the most celebrated
2:42
Speaker 1: horribly villains of all time, things like with faba beans
2:46
Speaker 1: and a nice kiante, like those are just things that
2:49
Speaker 1: we say, like they're part of the lexicon of pop
2:52
Speaker 1: culture that is Clarice um, you know all of that.
2:56
Speaker 1: It puts the lotion on its skin. It's there's just
2:59
Speaker 1: this movie of the looms very large in the cultural consciousness.
3:03
Speaker 1: And it's also very queer. Um well often we often problematically,
3:09
Speaker 1: so I mean it's very queer and that it depicts
3:12
Speaker 1: queerness in a pathologizing kind of depiction of queerness. I guess,
3:16
Speaker 1: you know, it has a queer villain, and it has
3:21
Speaker 1: some things to say about transness, and it is part
3:26
Speaker 1: of a canon of films with gender deviant villains. Yeah.
3:33
Speaker 1: So if for anyone who out there who has never
3:36
Speaker 1: seen Silence of the Lambs, for all the True Virgins,
3:40
Speaker 1: Silence of the Lambs is a film that is based
3:43
Speaker 1: on a novel. It is about Clarice Sterling, who's a
3:47
Speaker 1: young FBI agent in training. She's still at schools sensibly
3:51
Speaker 1: lesbian um and she gets pulled into work on a
3:57
Speaker 1: case with Hannibal Lecter, who is a professor, a doctor, doctor, psychiatrist,
4:03
Speaker 1: doctor who is in you know, a maximum security um
4:09
Speaker 1: psychiatric facility for murder, because there is a killer on
4:15
Speaker 1: the loose who Lector used to treat and he's asked
4:19
Speaker 1: for Clarice specifically, and she needs to work with him
4:25
Speaker 1: to help them find the missing girl who's been captured
4:29
Speaker 1: by Buffalo Bill. Has been captured by Buffalo Bill, who
4:31
Speaker 1: is a gay cross dressing serial killer who skins his
4:38
Speaker 1: victims alive so that he can wear their flesh, which
4:42
Speaker 1: is like J. K. Rowling could not have invented a
4:45
Speaker 1: better gender deviant villain. I'm sure she will borrow from
4:49
Speaker 1: it in future. She has, she has, she released a
4:53
Speaker 1: book recently where there's a trans um killer. I mean,
4:58
Speaker 1: when you watched it a year ago, how did you
4:59
Speaker 1: feel about it? Like what was your loved it? And
5:02
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure you will have a lot of
5:05
Speaker 1: thoughts about the queerness, and I'm sure that's a point
5:10
Speaker 1: where we we'll we'll really dig into and and possibly
5:15
Speaker 1: disagree on. I really liked it. I love you know,
5:19
Speaker 1: I love horror movies in general. I think I lean
5:23
Speaker 1: towards things that are like a little bit more fantastical
5:26
Speaker 1: or scary, but I love a psychological thriller, and Silence
5:29
Speaker 1: of the Lambs is the psychological thriller. I would say,
5:35
Speaker 1: I like to throw you down a hole, but I'd
5:36
Speaker 1: have to fatten you up first. You have to. That's
5:38
Speaker 1: one of the things I liked was, you know, there's
5:40
Speaker 1: fat representation because, as it's explained, Buffalo Bill only kidnaps
5:44
Speaker 1: plus size women because there's more skin for him to work.
5:48
Speaker 1: And then he starves. He starves them so they get
5:50
Speaker 1: all a little loose and flabby. He puts them on
5:52
Speaker 1: a crash diet. He's got a he's got a peloton
5:55
Speaker 1: down there in the whole. He's got them away watchers prescription. Um,
6:02
Speaker 1: you don't get prescribed weight watchers. You get driving here
6:05
Speaker 1: against your will by your mom. Like what happened to
6:06
Speaker 1: me in middle school. Oh my god, yeah, oh god,
6:09
Speaker 1: we're taking that out. No, no, no no, keep it in,
6:11
Speaker 1: keep it in, keep it in. Um okay, okay, okay, okay.
6:15
Speaker 1: I will say, um. The thing that you talked about
6:18
Speaker 1: right at the top, about how Silence of the Lambs
6:20
Speaker 1: like is kind of omnipotent in a lot of like
6:23
Speaker 1: thriller culture. I think it's part of the reason why
6:26
Speaker 1: I was kind of like bored. When I watched it,
6:29
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say yeah, I thought a lot of it
6:33
Speaker 1: was like slow, unappealing. Like I didn't think that Anthony
6:38
Speaker 1: Hopkins was that scary. I thought for me, like Jody
6:41
Speaker 1: was the best part of the movie. But I don't
6:43
Speaker 1: I want to say that that's on a taste level,
6:46
Speaker 1: Like I'm not trying to say that I think the
6:47
Speaker 1: movie is like bad, right, Like but what I was, no, no, no, no,
6:53
Speaker 1: I don't think the movie is bad. Um, it's just
6:55
Speaker 1: not my taste. But I think that the thing you're
6:57
Speaker 1: talking about, the omnipotence, is actually the reason I didn't
7:00
Speaker 1: enjoy the movie. I was watching it and being like
7:04
Speaker 1: my brain was kind of being like, oh, that's kind
7:06
Speaker 1: of cliche, like, oh, I've kind of seen that before.
7:08
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, I've like already watched so many movies
7:11
Speaker 1: that I've done this before, but Silence of the Lamps
7:13
Speaker 1: was the first one a lot it is the blueprint,
7:16
Speaker 1: and because it's yes, and because it was the blueprint,
7:21
Speaker 1: watching something like was actually like not scary at all,
7:25
Speaker 1: and like it's like I I know, yeah, yeah yeah,
7:28
Speaker 1: and like again it's it's only because I'm watching it
7:32
Speaker 1: and not that I'm having this experience of the film,
7:35
Speaker 1: but I think the you know, transphobia and queer phobia
7:38
Speaker 1: of it all that that we're gonna get into later
7:41
Speaker 1: is the kind of icing on the cake of why
7:44
Speaker 1: the totality of the movie was just kind of like
7:46
Speaker 1: met for me. But I do think the climax is
7:48
Speaker 1: really good. I think the dramatic tension is obviously masterful.
7:52
Speaker 1: I don't really understand the best actor wins, but like, yeah,
7:58
Speaker 1: that's just that's just something that I have to disagree with. Yeah,
8:01
Speaker 1: I think I think they are both incredible performances. Anthony Hopkins,
8:08
Speaker 1: I think like every second he's on screen, you can't
8:10
Speaker 1: look away from him, and he is just so I
8:16
Speaker 1: don't think there had been this kind of figure in
8:19
Speaker 1: a movie at this point in pop culture of this
8:21
Speaker 1: like um, like the elevated villain, you know, like the
8:26
Speaker 1: stoic good manners even spoken, you know, he wasn't a
8:30
Speaker 1: caricature of a monster, even though he does very monstrous things.
8:33
Speaker 1: He's literally a cannibal um. And I think that dichotomy
8:40
Speaker 1: is sort of what makes him such a compelling villain,
8:44
Speaker 1: is you know, he wants to eat you, but with
8:46
Speaker 1: fava beans and a nice kiante, right or right? Yeah,
8:49
Speaker 1: that actually that line perfectly distills like I think him
8:52
Speaker 1: as a character. For me, it almost like made him boring,
8:57
Speaker 1: like like that was like again like that the experience
8:59
Speaker 1: I was having a of the film, But like, I
9:02
Speaker 1: think it's worth noting that, like they went out to
9:04
Speaker 1: so many other prestige actors before landing on Anthony Hopkins,
9:07
Speaker 1: who had like a lot of credits but wasn't as
9:09
Speaker 1: big as um Sean Connery who was the first person
9:12
Speaker 1: to to be tapped for the role al Pacino. Robert
9:15
Speaker 1: de Niro, Dustin Hoffman, Daniel day Lewis, and even Forest
9:19
Speaker 1: Whittaker audition for this role, which, like Forest, would have
9:21
Speaker 1: been amazing. I'm sure, but yeah, I I don't know.
9:24
Speaker 1: I feel like that, but I don't think it could
9:27
Speaker 1: have been anyone but Anthony Hopkins. He just does it
9:30
Speaker 1: so perfectly. I think Dustin Hoffman would have been good,
9:32
Speaker 1: but that's because I can't really see him because he's
9:35
Speaker 1: never played a role like this. And I would say
9:38
Speaker 1: that his role in I would say him as Hook
9:40
Speaker 1: is actually maybe a little but he's not like a
9:43
Speaker 1: cannibal in Hook and I think a lot of effeminate,
9:46
Speaker 1: villainous even sure maybe yeah that's a that's a bit
9:50
Speaker 1: of elite. But you know, I do believe that Silence
9:53
Speaker 1: of the Lambs is very much an outlier in horror
9:58
Speaker 1: being given. You know, may and stream critical acclaim it
10:02
Speaker 1: was unprecedented. Also something Jaws was like the only one.
10:06
Speaker 1: Maybe yeah. Also it was a huge commercial success and um,
10:10
Speaker 1: something that I learned recently about part of what contributed
10:15
Speaker 1: to that is that it came out at the beginning
10:17
Speaker 1: of the year, and it had a whole year until
10:23
Speaker 1: Awards season, and so it came out and then later
10:27
Speaker 1: that year was already released on home video. So it
10:31
Speaker 1: was something that so many people were able to watch
10:34
Speaker 1: as the fervor around it really built up, so that
10:39
Speaker 1: by the time the Oscars came around, it had reached
10:43
Speaker 1: this critical mass of consumption and it was just the
10:48
Speaker 1: something that everyone had seen and it was like unavoidable,
10:52
Speaker 1: like to you know, talk about it it being a
10:56
Speaker 1: good movie, like it was a great movie. It was both,
10:59
Speaker 1: you know, a critical success and a commercial one, and rarely,
11:03
Speaker 1: if ever, do those things overlap. Today, you know, we
11:08
Speaker 1: have this idea of like the popcorn movies and then
11:11
Speaker 1: the serious films, and this is one of the few
11:14
Speaker 1: times that those two have come together in this kind
11:17
Speaker 1: of way. Yeah, there are certain VHS tape covers that
11:19
Speaker 1: are like on the shelves of Blockbuster that are now
11:23
Speaker 1: singed into your memory from like browsing when I was
11:26
Speaker 1: like eight or ten or whatever, and Silence of the Lambs,
11:28
Speaker 1: like that cover is deaf with the mom with the moth. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
11:32
Speaker 1: it's very like it has a punked um. You know,
11:35
Speaker 1: it's immediately something that a punked um. What is that?
11:39
Speaker 1: It's like a photography term where like you take a
11:41
Speaker 1: photo and the photo just works because all of the
11:45
Speaker 1: different components of it are like coming together. Like it's
11:47
Speaker 1: kind of like it's kind of like the Oprah's Aha
11:50
Speaker 1: moment of like an image, you know what I mean.
11:52
Speaker 1: You're like, this image just works, and there's something to
11:55
Speaker 1: it that I can't necessarily describe, but it's just like
11:58
Speaker 1: you're like, I can't forget it. You know. Do you
12:00
Speaker 1: know who they went out to for Jennie Foster's role
12:02
Speaker 1: before she got it? Um, Michelle Fiverer, Okay, Meg Ryan
12:09
Speaker 1: and Laura Dern. Laura would have been amazing Yeah. And
12:14
Speaker 1: I wonder if you know, looking at these looking at
12:17
Speaker 1: these lists of all the people who passed on it,
12:20
Speaker 1: I think probably what you know I've just been talking
12:22
Speaker 1: about is probably part of the reason is these actors
12:26
Speaker 1: didn't want to quote unquote lower themselves to be in
12:30
Speaker 1: this like paperback adaptation, you know, mainstream popcorn movie, horror movie. Um,
12:38
Speaker 1: that ended up being a huge, you know, commercial and
12:41
Speaker 1: critical success and really made the careers of Jodie Foster
12:46
Speaker 1: and and like Athoney Hopkins may be to a lesser
12:49
Speaker 1: except definitely career defining, career defining. This is the role
12:51
Speaker 1: that he will always be remembered for, certainly not Westworld. Yeah,
12:55
Speaker 1: and to your point, um, Sean Connery when he read
12:57
Speaker 1: the script, he was like, this is like revolting or something,
13:00
Speaker 1: and he turned it down, and Michelle Fifer turned it
13:02
Speaker 1: on specifically because she was like, I can't do this
13:04
Speaker 1: subject matter like it's two it's two issue. Um can
13:07
Speaker 1: I can I say? When we were watching the movie,
13:10
Speaker 1: I think, honestly, here's here's here's what I'm actually how
13:13
Speaker 1: I'm actually feeling a little bit about the movie is
13:15
Speaker 1: that like I, um, I'm again, I'm not trying to
13:18
Speaker 1: say it's like bad or anything, or like take it
13:21
Speaker 1: down a peg. No, no, I actually am trying to
13:23
Speaker 1: take it down a peg because, like I think, when
13:25
Speaker 1: I was watching it, is like, this is an amazing movie.
13:28
Speaker 1: I don't really feel that it belongs in the canon
13:32
Speaker 1: of greatest movies of all time, because it is frequently
13:36
Speaker 1: ranked in the greatest movies of all time kind of
13:40
Speaker 1: lists that critics and cinefils always make, like this is
13:43
Speaker 1: always up there. I feel like I'm seeing it everywhere.
13:46
Speaker 1: And when I watched it, I was like, the greatest
13:49
Speaker 1: movie of all time is like timeless, and like this
13:51
Speaker 1: is not timeless at all, Like it has it lacks
13:55
Speaker 1: a relevancy in the conceit of the murders and like
14:01
Speaker 1: the kind of reveal of this skin suit and like
14:04
Speaker 1: all these different things. I was like, it just doesn't
14:06
Speaker 1: feel um. It didn't feel at all like something I
14:10
Speaker 1: could give myself to um in terms of like the
14:14
Speaker 1: dramatic tension, you know what I mean. Like I was
14:16
Speaker 1: just kind of distracted by it. But but and this
14:19
Speaker 1: is not me being shady. Isn't that just kind of
14:22
Speaker 1: the nature of how you watch movies as you are
14:24
Speaker 1: very distracted and this movie is very slow and introspective. Yeah,
14:29
Speaker 1: um no, yeah, yeah, yeah, I am very easily bored.
14:33
Speaker 1: That is totally true. I think, Um, part of what
14:37
Speaker 1: I'm responding to is like the Riddler energy that, like
14:41
Speaker 1: Anthony Hopkins was giving Jodie Foster, like when he was
14:45
Speaker 1: just like, you know, being like of low bills in
14:49
Speaker 1: any agram for fucking I don't know, bubble butt or whatever.
14:53
Speaker 1: It's like it's like I actually like don't care about
14:55
Speaker 1: the instagrams, Like I don't care about like the puzzles.
14:57
Speaker 1: I think. So, I think that's so clever. I just
15:00
Speaker 1: I didn't there were too many angiograms and anagrams, too
15:03
Speaker 1: many anagrams, too many of the kind of like riddles
15:06
Speaker 1: and clues, and I was just like, but that's the
15:08
Speaker 1: whole point of the movie. Yeah, but it wasn't like
15:10
Speaker 1: true that's not how true crime works, Like, but what
15:13
Speaker 1: do you mean by that? Because in a lot of ways,
15:17
Speaker 1: this movie is kind of one of the origins of
15:20
Speaker 1: our contemporary fascination Withdrew crime, because I think because the
15:25
Speaker 1: things that the clues revealed, like the fact that Hester
15:29
Speaker 1: whatever her faces is like an anagram for the rest
15:33
Speaker 1: of her or something like that. I was like, it's
15:35
Speaker 1: just it wasn't compelling to me, Like it wasn't like
15:38
Speaker 1: mine shattering lee, Like it wasn't a mind shattering twist.
15:42
Speaker 1: Like that's kind of how I was and being such
15:44
Speaker 1: like a kind of Debbie Downer about this, Like I actually,
15:47
Speaker 1: I think you're look. I think the thing is this
15:49
Speaker 1: is not a movie about twists, and you know it's
15:53
Speaker 1: funny because it is about twists. The skin suit is
15:55
Speaker 1: a big reveal, Yeah, but it's not a movie where
15:57
Speaker 1: it's like there's one singular gag that it's all built.
16:00
Speaker 1: I think the skin suit is one singular gag that
16:02
Speaker 1: the movie. I don't. I don't think so. I think
16:04
Speaker 1: this movie, more than anything, is about the relationship between
16:07
Speaker 1: Clarice and Hannibal actor. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, obviously, and that's no.
16:13
Speaker 1: But but that's the most interesting part of it and
16:16
Speaker 1: the most enduring part of it. So I think you're
16:18
Speaker 1: kind of a little bit judging it against the movie
16:22
Speaker 1: that you kind of were expecting it to be, rather
16:25
Speaker 1: than the movie it actually is. Yeah. I think so too.
16:28
Speaker 1: Um My main takeaway honestly is that I want Buffalo
16:31
Speaker 1: Bill's nipple ring. I think it was really good. Yeah,
16:34
Speaker 1: I see, this is how I keep saying, I want
16:36
Speaker 1: to get my nipples reaps. And it was cool. It
16:39
Speaker 1: was like, okay, perfect, perfect nipple ring. Let's talk about
16:58
Speaker 1: the Buffalo Bill, because I think you're going to have
17:03
Speaker 1: a different take on this than I am. Maybe you won't,
17:07
Speaker 1: but I don't have a problem with Buffalo Bill. I
17:12
Speaker 1: think Buffalo Bill's iconic um and one of the things
17:17
Speaker 1: I appreciate about this movie that gets lost and abstracted
17:20
Speaker 1: a lot in the way that we talk about it
17:23
Speaker 1: more broadly in pop culture. The Thomas Harris's novel and
17:28
Speaker 1: the film are very specific in saying that Buffalo Bill
17:35
Speaker 1: is not trans. Yeah, he's a man. He's a man.
17:38
Speaker 1: And Thomas Harris has said multiple times, both when his
17:45
Speaker 1: book came out, when this movie came out, and in
17:47
Speaker 1: year's past that he wanted to make it very clear
17:50
Speaker 1: that Buffalo Bill wasn't trans, and he has said I
17:55
Speaker 1: think in years since like that he still feels like
17:58
Speaker 1: he let down trans people in the way that Buffalo
18:01
Speaker 1: Bill is depicted, and I think more so the way
18:04
Speaker 1: that culture reacted to Buffalo Bill and the way that
18:07
Speaker 1: Buffalo Bill has kind of become this symbol of like
18:12
Speaker 1: what transphobic people think about trans people. Um. But I
18:18
Speaker 1: did really appreciate that nuance in the movie, even though
18:23
Speaker 1: it's obviously a very dated kind of nuanced because the
18:26
Speaker 1: way that they like quote unquote decide that Buffalo Bill
18:29
Speaker 1: are approved, that Buffalo Bill isn't trans is that he
18:32
Speaker 1: doesn't want surgery. He doesn't kind of fit the bill
18:35
Speaker 1: of of you know, trans people who have like a
18:38
Speaker 1: sort of diagnosable um, you know, like illness of being trans.
18:44
Speaker 1: It is a little trans medicalist. Yeah, I think that.
18:47
Speaker 1: I think the word pathologizing is the right word for
18:50
Speaker 1: how this, um, how Buffalo Bill's character goes down, um
18:55
Speaker 1: in the same in the same way like most horror
18:57
Speaker 1: films pathologized like people with disabilit at ease, right or
19:00
Speaker 1: like we've also we've probably seen other kind of trans
19:03
Speaker 1: villainy reveals and stories in horror films of your and
19:07
Speaker 1: so you know, to your point, like, yes, I I
19:11
Speaker 1: think when I watched the Buffalo Bill character, I was like,
19:14
Speaker 1: this is like, to me, scary, really well done. The
19:17
Speaker 1: use of the fucking Horses song was amazing. Um. I
19:21
Speaker 1: think the sequence when he's like dancing is great so good.
19:24
Speaker 1: It's I think was my favorite like part of the film,
19:27
Speaker 1: like the reveal of that and the nipple ranging all
19:28
Speaker 1: that stuff, Like I actually really loved it. So I, um,
19:32
Speaker 1: before I kind of like give my take, I actually
19:35
Speaker 1: I'm curious. So are you saying so you said the
19:37
Speaker 1: book specifically says Buffalo Bill is not trans. Do you
19:41
Speaker 1: think the movie blurs those lines? Are you think the
19:43
Speaker 1: movie also says no? The movie also says that the
19:46
Speaker 1: movie also says that you don't think there's like a
19:49
Speaker 1: kind of okay. So the movie also says that despite that,
19:53
Speaker 1: culturally people can inflate the experience of like trans people
19:57
Speaker 1: with like serial killer cross dresser. Yes, because if you
20:01
Speaker 1: look at it on its face, Buffalo Bill is someone
20:03
Speaker 1: who wants to um possess and wear femininity in like
20:08
Speaker 1: a very literal way. He wants to skin these women
20:11
Speaker 1: and turn them into clothing that he can wear, which
20:14
Speaker 1: is something that it's a it's a trope that exists.
20:19
Speaker 1: Um when you talk about trans people and why turfs
20:22
Speaker 1: and transwobs hate trans people, especially trans women, is because
20:26
Speaker 1: they think that they are co opting um and appropriating
20:31
Speaker 1: femininity to wear as a costume in order to gain
20:35
Speaker 1: access to women's spaces and brutalize them, right, And that
20:38
Speaker 1: is a discussion that did not exist, at least in
20:41
Speaker 1: the mainstream in and so I think my the way
20:45
Speaker 1: I kind of felt when I was watching it. First
20:48
Speaker 1: of all, it must be said that like you and
20:50
Speaker 1: I would love to write a serial killer thriller where
20:54
Speaker 1: a trans woman is the big bad, you know what
20:57
Speaker 1: I mean, like or trans person is the big bad.
20:59
Speaker 1: Like that would be an amazing movie. Um. Second of all,
21:03
Speaker 1: there's nothing that I or you can really say that
21:05
Speaker 1: hasn't already been said in like the Disclosure documentary if
21:08
Speaker 1: you haven't watched it, they talked about silence of Lambs
21:10
Speaker 1: briefly in a really distinct way. I am someone who
21:14
Speaker 1: doesn't like go to old movies and be like canceled
21:18
Speaker 1: it's so problematic, like this movie is so transphobic or
21:21
Speaker 1: like whatever. Um, because, as I said, like the discussions
21:25
Speaker 1: just weren't like that in ninety one. This is like,
21:29
Speaker 1: to some extent, as good as it got for trans
21:31
Speaker 1: people on screen, or rather gender deviant people on screen,
21:34
Speaker 1: which is like a more accurate term here. And um,
21:38
Speaker 1: I think all I'm trying to say is that because
21:41
Speaker 1: of the now dated conversations around cross dressing in the film,
21:50
Speaker 1: I don't really feel like it's one of the greatest
21:52
Speaker 1: movies of all time. Like that's like really what I'm
21:55
Speaker 1: trying to say and why I'm being a little bit
21:57
Speaker 1: of a sour puss about it. But like I do,
22:00
Speaker 1: like I want to see trans Billains, Like that's like
22:03
Speaker 1: my tea. Like I want to see like even like
22:06
Speaker 1: this Dahmer series that came out or whatever. I'm like,
22:08
Speaker 1: and he's like a gay serial killer or whatever. It's
22:10
Speaker 1: like I want to watch that, like I do. Like
22:12
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but like I do want to watch that,
22:15
Speaker 1: And I mean the difference, the difference for me is
22:18
Speaker 1: that's based in reality and this is a fantasy that
22:21
Speaker 1: is like fully a lot of how I felt it
22:23
Speaker 1: about it too, But just as quick as I I
22:26
Speaker 1: unfortunately watched the entire series. I know you did, and
22:29
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't um you know, judge you harshly
22:34
Speaker 1: for that, because I think there is a direct line
22:37
Speaker 1: from Silence of the Lambs to Dahmer Silence of the
22:40
Speaker 1: Lambs move all the movies that came after it that
22:43
Speaker 1: were inspired by it, The Rise of True crime podcasts.
22:48
Speaker 1: All of these things have led to something like Dahmer existing,
22:52
Speaker 1: and a lot of people want to consume that type
22:54
Speaker 1: of media. Yeah, the show really tries to justify itself
22:58
Speaker 1: and justify the real life harm that this show is
23:02
Speaker 1: enacting on the real life families of the victims that
23:06
Speaker 1: are in this story, like literally in this story. Um,
23:08
Speaker 1: and there's a lot about it, like on Twitter or
23:10
Speaker 1: like in reviews that you can read about. Um. That's honestly.
23:14
Speaker 1: What's unfortunate is like the rest of the series actually
23:16
Speaker 1: was like some of Ryan Murphy's like better thriller drama
23:21
Speaker 1: and Recent Memory, Like it's better than a lot of
23:23
Speaker 1: like recent American horror stories series, but it's just the
23:26
Speaker 1: wrong franchise. Like it doesn't make sense. It's so cliche
23:30
Speaker 1: and expected for him to do something like this. But
23:32
Speaker 1: like even the title, like the title is Dahmer Colin
23:36
Speaker 1: Monster Colin the Jeffrey Dahmer's Story, Like what the fund
23:39
Speaker 1: is that? It's like he was like, Oh, I want
23:42
Speaker 1: to make it a true I want it to be um,
23:45
Speaker 1: a fucking American horror story series. But like that's too
23:49
Speaker 1: like dangerous and like the victims won't like that. So
23:52
Speaker 1: I'm gonna invent a new franchise called Monster because it
23:55
Speaker 1: doesn't exactly fit into like the American crime story series either,
23:58
Speaker 1: Like it just totally it does not make any sense.
24:01
Speaker 1: I feel like they're in the in the rest of
24:04
Speaker 1: just to like air out a handful of complaints now
24:05
Speaker 1: that I have about this series, because like I just
24:08
Speaker 1: need to say something. But like there are a handful
24:11
Speaker 1: of like virtuous like cop narratives. The show tries to
24:16
Speaker 1: also be a very black story and tries to center
24:19
Speaker 1: the victims and tries to show their side of the story.
24:23
Speaker 1: And Niss Nash is like a really good hero in
24:26
Speaker 1: um how the arc of this series moves, but it's
24:29
Speaker 1: like you can't, Like I was telling you, I was
24:34
Speaker 1: telling you that there's like this scene specifically where um
24:38
Speaker 1: uh you know, Niss Nash is like she lives in
24:40
Speaker 1: this apartment complex where Doahmer killed a bunch of people,
24:42
Speaker 1: like some of his most gruesome murders and their people.
24:45
Speaker 1: As the story you know, um comes to light in
24:48
Speaker 1: the series, there are um looky loose who come and
24:51
Speaker 1: like take photos of the murder house, and nice Nash
24:53
Speaker 1: is like people died here, like these are our real
24:56
Speaker 1: lives and you're standing here taking photos and I'm like,
24:59
Speaker 1: this is is actually what the show is doing. That's
25:03
Speaker 1: insane And it's a complete lack of self awareness. Literally
25:06
Speaker 1: like I'm sorry, Like Bryan Murphy is like farting and
25:08
Speaker 1: then like eating his own farts like it it actually
25:11
Speaker 1: makes no sense, but it's just like this is like
25:15
Speaker 1: when we can when we consume culture like this, especially
25:18
Speaker 1: culture that's like ultimately in the hands of like white creators,
25:22
Speaker 1: the question of intent actually does become really important, but
25:26
Speaker 1: also like warped and tricky because we don't really know
25:29
Speaker 1: the intent of like how everyone is supposed to be,
25:32
Speaker 1: like seen in this series, and whether Dahmer is supposed
25:35
Speaker 1: to be, whether you're supposed to There are a few
25:38
Speaker 1: moments where like you sympathize for Dama and I'm like,
25:41
Speaker 1: what the fuck is this? Like what is this? And
25:44
Speaker 1: there is I will say the sixth episode, which is
25:47
Speaker 1: one of the best episodes of TV I've seen this year, unfortunately,
25:51
Speaker 1: UM tells the story of this black death victim, a
25:56
Speaker 1: black gay death victim of Damers, and the story is
26:01
Speaker 1: kind of almost like a bottle episode that follows him
26:04
Speaker 1: around and how he comes into Dahmer's orbit. And this
26:09
Speaker 1: is unfortunately also the episode where you have like a
26:12
Speaker 1: hair of sympathy for Dahmer because he almost builds a relation.
26:16
Speaker 1: This is the only victim that he ostensibly builds a
26:19
Speaker 1: relationship with, which is completely fabricated, not real at all.
26:22
Speaker 1: But um. Most of the episode is in a s
26:25
Speaker 1: l and the actor um Rodney Burford, who's from Deaf You,
26:29
Speaker 1: which is like one of my favorite Like I loved
26:32
Speaker 1: that show so much if you haven't watched it, Um
26:34
Speaker 1: a first time actor, deaf actor cast in a death
26:37
Speaker 1: role and I was like, this is like, like so
26:40
Speaker 1: amazing to watch. I just like hate that it's um
26:43
Speaker 1: in service of something that is like so horrible. Um.
26:47
Speaker 1: The ninth episode is directed by gregor Acki, which is
26:49
Speaker 1: kind of cool. I know to interview him once and
26:53
Speaker 1: I like almost pissed ship and came all at the
26:57
Speaker 1: same time. He's one of my cultural blind spots. I
26:59
Speaker 1: don't really which we should do. We should do an episode,
27:02
Speaker 1: we should um watch Doom Generation and talk about it. Oh, um,
27:06
Speaker 1: like back to our like John Wayne Gayzy episode. Um.
27:09
Speaker 1: There is towards the end of the series, the Ryan
27:13
Speaker 1: Murphy kind of like cuts from Dahmer and introduces John
27:18
Speaker 1: Wayne Gaycey as a kind of like cultural character and
27:22
Speaker 1: moment during this time, because I guess like his murder
27:25
Speaker 1: was maybe happening, his like story was happening around the
27:28
Speaker 1: same time that Dahmer's story was coming out, or maybe
27:30
Speaker 1: john Wyn Gayzy was inspired by Dahmer's or something like that.
27:33
Speaker 1: I mean, there was kind of this era of serial
27:36
Speaker 1: killers in the seventies eighties. Yeah, and it was really
27:41
Speaker 1: it was almost as if like Ryan Murphy was like
27:44
Speaker 1: pitching John Wayne Gaycy's show, Like it was like a
27:46
Speaker 1: completely backdoor pilot. Yeah, it wasn't. It was a backdoor
27:50
Speaker 1: pilots exactly what it was. There's also a virtuous landlord
27:53
Speaker 1: narrative in this series that was like super annoying. And
27:57
Speaker 1: I feel like, at the end of the day, the
27:59
Speaker 1: show is still centering dam and centering dams parents, and
28:02
Speaker 1: it's like these are actually the narratives that we care
28:06
Speaker 1: the least about, that deserves the least amount of storytelling,
28:09
Speaker 1: But clearly the narratives that the people making the show
28:12
Speaker 1: care the most about and the most interesting. They are
28:15
Speaker 1: the most interested in the pathology of the serial killer
28:18
Speaker 1: and that is something that our culture wants and is
28:23
Speaker 1: as as I said, you can trace it directly back
28:26
Speaker 1: to Silence of the Lambs, because this whole movie is
28:28
Speaker 1: about prothologizing a serial killer. To me, the thing that
28:46
Speaker 1: Silence of the Lambs does well, that unfortunately dam Were
28:50
Speaker 1: also does kind of well. But that you say is
28:53
Speaker 1: the engine of the movie is the relationship and intimacy
28:57
Speaker 1: built with a serial killer that s real killer is
29:00
Speaker 1: not just this you know, oogie boogie monster lurking in
29:04
Speaker 1: shadows who you don't see until the end of the movie.
29:05
Speaker 1: Like the serial killer can be right at the beginning,
29:08
Speaker 1: um at some points helping and assisting the um prospects
29:14
Speaker 1: of moral good, um being a kind of almost accomplice
29:19
Speaker 1: in the heroes, like I guess like main goals. Yeah, yeah,
29:26
Speaker 1: I mean, as I was saying before, the Silence of
29:28
Speaker 1: the Lambs is about It's not really about Buffalo bill
29:34
Speaker 1: If it's not about um, you know, Frederica Bimmel, it's
29:37
Speaker 1: about Clarice and Hannibal Lecter. I mean, it's right there
29:41
Speaker 1: in the title, the Silence of the Lambs. Can you
29:44
Speaker 1: still hear the lamb screaming? It's a which is something
29:47
Speaker 1: that Hannibal Lector says to Clarice. It's about their relationship.
29:51
Speaker 1: And that is the most compelling thing about this movie.
29:54
Speaker 1: It's about a woman who has to dive into the
29:57
Speaker 1: absolute depths of evil in order to save someone. And
30:03
Speaker 1: what does she find there, what does she lose in
30:06
Speaker 1: the process, what does she learn about herself in the process? Um,
30:12
Speaker 1: And how does that change you? And like was it
30:15
Speaker 1: worth it? Was it worth it to save this life
30:18
Speaker 1: for her? That now she is forever connected to this
30:21
Speaker 1: man and you kind of end the movie not knowing
30:26
Speaker 1: you know what is what is the cost of her
30:29
Speaker 1: you know, descent into hell basically, you know, with this
30:35
Speaker 1: man who she you know through um having him help
30:40
Speaker 1: her solve this case, escapes and it's at large in
30:43
Speaker 1: the world. Again, like was it worth it to save
30:46
Speaker 1: one life? And I don't know if you know this,
30:48
Speaker 1: but something else that really enriched the kind of like
30:51
Speaker 1: arc of that relationship was the fact that Jodie Foster
30:54
Speaker 1: and Anthony Hopkins never spoke on set. Did you know
30:57
Speaker 1: that they literally never spoke on I mean, Anthony Hopkins
31:00
Speaker 1: is only in the movie for like fifteen minutes, you know,
31:03
Speaker 1: but like I like fifteen minutes total. But like it is,
31:06
Speaker 1: it is kind of crazy. You know. This kind of
31:09
Speaker 1: goes back to when we were discussing Pearl. I love
31:13
Speaker 1: a character study movie, um, and I think this film
31:19
Speaker 1: does that so well. You know, so much of this
31:23
Speaker 1: movie is about Clariss's place, um in the FBI and
31:31
Speaker 1: what it's like to be a woman in her field.
31:34
Speaker 1: And you know, she spends the first half of the
31:37
Speaker 1: movie kind of being dismissed or used or sexualized by
31:41
Speaker 1: the men around her. And then the one man who
31:44
Speaker 1: respects her is a serial killer, the one man who
31:47
Speaker 1: takes her seriously, and it makes her very important. It
31:50
Speaker 1: makes her the only person who can solve this crime
31:54
Speaker 1: and save the day. And that was what I found
31:58
Speaker 1: really fascinating about it. Like, I don't get why Clarice
32:02
Speaker 1: is so special, Um, I don't get why Hannibal Lecter
32:05
Speaker 1: is obsessed with her. And I don't think there's an
32:09
Speaker 1: answer for those things. I don't think the film wants
32:11
Speaker 1: you to find out. I think it just wants you
32:13
Speaker 1: to keep asking those questions. Um, And those are the
32:17
Speaker 1: kind of movies I like. Uh. Jodie Foster very specifically
32:20
Speaker 1: took this role because she said she had the utmost
32:23
Speaker 1: respect for um FBI agents. Did you know that she's
32:27
Speaker 1: the utmost respect for FBI agent she she took she
32:30
Speaker 1: decided to take on the role because she really respected
32:32
Speaker 1: what the How do we feel about the FBI? And
32:35
Speaker 1: in the context of you know, hating hating force, I
32:42
Speaker 1: love the FBI putting themselves in mortal danger. I think
32:46
Speaker 1: if that, if they want to do that, I'm I'm,
32:48
Speaker 1: you know, go off, queen. And I also think, you know,
32:51
Speaker 1: women of the FBI representation matters rose like. I think
32:54
Speaker 1: that I think that, you know, Jennie Foster really went there.
32:58
Speaker 1: I think at one time in my life, I want
33:00
Speaker 1: to be an FBI agent. You would be amazing, You
33:03
Speaker 1: would be so good. But I think I would be
33:06
Speaker 1: so if I was Clarice. I mean I would have
33:09
Speaker 1: run off with Hannibal Lector and we would be, you know,
33:12
Speaker 1: like a cannibal power. Yeah. I think that's also something
33:15
Speaker 1: we should talk about, is the cannibalism of it all.
33:18
Speaker 1: You know, it's I mean also going back to Dahmer,
33:21
Speaker 1: who you know, ate his victims because he wanted to
33:25
Speaker 1: feel close to them, He ate their hearts. What what
33:29
Speaker 1: is it with cannibalism. I'm not saying I want to
33:32
Speaker 1: eat human flesh because I'm a cannibal, or like because
33:35
Speaker 1: I want to like sure, you know, like be close
33:39
Speaker 1: to someone or like maintain their essence. I'm more approaching
33:43
Speaker 1: it from curiosity. Well, I mean, not to blow up
33:46
Speaker 1: your spot, but like, and I'm a biter. I was
33:49
Speaker 1: just about to say, you're a biter. I'm got there
33:52
Speaker 1: before I am a biter. I have I have been
33:55
Speaker 1: told in sexual scenarios before that I bite a little
33:58
Speaker 1: too hard. I've experienced it on a sexual capacity, but
34:03
Speaker 1: you have bitten me. Well, we could make it a
34:05
Speaker 1: sexual capacity. Um. Yeah, I'm a scratch rum a biter,
34:08
Speaker 1: I'm a hair puller. Um anyways, and I both I
34:12
Speaker 1: like both inflicting and receiving pain. But I also want
34:15
Speaker 1: to say that I actually think people eating my body
34:19
Speaker 1: when I die would be the best case scenario for me.
34:22
Speaker 1: I would love that instead of cremation or anything or yeah, well,
34:26
Speaker 1: because I don't really want to be buried, um, cremated shore,
34:32
Speaker 1: but I would love for my body to do something useful.
34:36
Speaker 1: I would love for it to nourish people, like if okay,
34:38
Speaker 1: if this was yellow Jackets, Um, and you needed to
34:42
Speaker 1: eat me to survive. I want you to eat me.
34:45
Speaker 1: If our plane goes down, Bran, I want you to
34:48
Speaker 1: eat you know that is a circumstance where and I
34:50
Speaker 1: would eat someone. Yeah, and I know, and I know
34:54
Speaker 1: that I'm the one who's gonna get eaten because I
34:56
Speaker 1: think you're more of a survivalist. You would give up immediately,
35:00
Speaker 1: no offense. Yeah that's actually absolutely true. Yeah, yeah, you
35:04
Speaker 1: would literally like day one of Yellow Jackets. He'd be
35:07
Speaker 1: like goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye, goodbye. Or would I end
35:15
Speaker 1: up being the like deer queen? M I could? I
35:18
Speaker 1: think I think you had the willpower. I think if
35:21
Speaker 1: I had the will but I think if I could
35:22
Speaker 1: manipulate other people into like surviving for me. But I
35:28
Speaker 1: think you're too smart for I think you're like existence
35:30
Speaker 1: in this scenario is a scam and I don't know.
35:33
Speaker 1: Actually goodbye and the drama. Okay, that's that's but you
35:36
Speaker 1: would definitely become the dear queen more than I would sure. Um.
35:40
Speaker 1: But all that is to say is that when I die,
35:44
Speaker 1: um could be any day now, I would love for
35:49
Speaker 1: I would love nothing more than for you to feast
35:51
Speaker 1: on my flesh. Fran, thank you. I will keep that
35:54
Speaker 1: in mind. Rows and Phoebe if you want to take
35:57
Speaker 1: a bite to this sour okay and date. This has
36:07
Speaker 1: been another special Halloween bonus f um. We will be
36:12
Speaker 1: doing spooky topics this entire month, but you can continue
36:16
Speaker 1: to send us suggestions if you want through Instagram, d
36:19
Speaker 1: m s or wherever you find us. You can leave
36:21
Speaker 1: us a review on Apple Podcasts or rating on Spotify.
36:24
Speaker 1: It helps us so much. I'm your co host Fran
36:27
Speaker 1: Toronto and you can find me at Friends Squish Go
36:29
Speaker 1: wherever you want on social and I'm Rose Damn You.
36:32
Speaker 1: You can find me at Rose Damn You wherever you want.
36:34
Speaker 1: And come back this Thursday because we'll be back with
36:37
Speaker 1: another regular episode with news and main topic. You can
36:41
Speaker 1: subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen. And this
36:43
Speaker 1: is an I Heeart radio production. Our producers Phoebe w Inter,
36:46
Speaker 1: with support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Just Crane Chitch
36:49
Speaker 1: and Nikki. You tour until next week. See you later, Virgins. Bye,