Latest / Low to Grow / Charlie Rogers on Reinvention, Cycling Crashes & undefinable Life Design

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Charlie Rogers on Reinvention, Cycling Crashes & undefinable Life Design · Low to Grow

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Either lean left and lean my whole body into the tarmac and
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scrape it across the ground, or I could hit the crash barrier
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that's going over this bridge and go over the edge.
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And I chose the latter by understanding and integrating
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energy as a equal motivation to the pursuit of goals and the
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pursuit of thereby income is something that I think is
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really, really powerful. Quick note before we start, if
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you have enjoyed this podcast and want to support our
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incredible guests, please follow Low to grow podcast on Instagram
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and TikTok. Welcome to Low to grow, the
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podcast transforming life's toughest moments into
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opportunity for growth. I'm Annie A Forbesander, 30,
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technology founder who's entrepreneurship journey brand
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parallel to a mental health awakening.
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In every episode, I sit down with inspiring individuals and
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delve into how they managed to turn their personal or
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professional challenges into opportunities for growth.
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If you're facing uncertainty in your life, feeling down, or
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simply need a kick of inspiration to keep moving
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forward, this is your space for the honest and uplifting
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conversations that you will want to hear.
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Hit follow so you never miss an episode and let's dive in.
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Today I am so excited to have Charlie Rogers, the brains and
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the man behind the Undefinables community.
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It's a space dedicated to people who do not just fit into one box
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and honestly maybe folks who don't want to fit into one box.
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Charlie coaches multi passionate individuals by using his life
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design frameworks, intimate community spaces and also
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meaningful transitions, helping these individuals to build lives
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by actually honoring instead of suppressing various parts of it.
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Charlie is a workshop facilitator, A nonprofit
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community builder supporting more than 40 members, and he
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also has a newsletter with over 1500 engaged readers.
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Now, just this year, in 2026, Charlie published his debut book
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called Undefinable Life Design, where he shares a practical and
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energizing model for how you can turn your many interests into a
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sustainable and aligned life, both financially and
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emotionally. If you are someone who refuses
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to shrink your potential or to choose between your passions,
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Charlie is a person that you want to be listening from.
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Charlie, it's a pleasure to have you on the Lottery Podcast.
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Who do you want to be listening to our conversation today?
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Likewise, Annie. It's great to be here too.
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I'd love for those who see themselves as more than one
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thing, those who are living beyond conventional labels, The
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undefinables amongst us. Perhaps they call themselves
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more potential lights. Perhaps they call themselves
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generalists, or perhaps they call themselves something else
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entirely. Or they maybe don't even have a
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label. I'd love for them to be
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listening today and to hear what we've got to share.
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I absolutely adore the fact that you call your community of of
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people that are definables. I actually really got to know
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your community and also your own story when I came to one of your
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community events about finding the golden thread.
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When did you first realize that you yourself didn't fit into a
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single box? And I said, how did that shape
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everything that came after? So for me, there's lessons from
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childhood around wanting to be an entrepreneur and think
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differently about how I build a business.
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And there's times at school where I started a talk shop when
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I was 15, starting school selling like candy from our own
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house back in those days. And there was a time of starting
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a clothing brand thereafterwards as well.
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So they were the kind of inklings, the beginnings of
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thinking I was seeing the world a little bit differently.
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And I think it really came to a head when I chose my A levels.
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I chose economics, history and biology, which are some random
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combination and was often advised against.
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People would say, you know, where's that going?
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What's that leading to? What's the point in you choosing
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those? Why aren't you picking a path
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already? And why aren't you thinking
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about how they could perhaps become part of a medicine degree
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or a business degree? And it's like, I just find them
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interesting and I want to explore them more deeply.
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So choosing them was definitely a starting point for kind of
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leaning in to my undefineableness.
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And then when I chose my university path as well, that
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was another double down on that as well because I from that
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point decided that I wanted to choose and prioritize love for
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as being my only choice, even though it offered me the lowest
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grade offers. Most people have a firm and a
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secondary choice. I chose.
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It's my only one. And that's because in my mind, I
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wanted the whole experience of going to university, the
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societies, the people, the sports, the whole academic
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experience, beyond just purely sitting behind a screen and
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writing some essays at the time. So for me, I wanted the broader
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experience. And I think that that then
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became another kind of undefinable step towards veering
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off the traditional path. One that really veered me off
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while I was at uni was that I decided to take on a year in
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enterprise. Most people do a placement year
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where they worked for a company for 12 months.
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In fact it's actually was mandatory within Loughborough.
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But for me, I decided to turn down an offer from Deloitte and
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instead go and work for myself for the year, while also funding
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that journey by working part time, 2 1/2 days a week as well.
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So that then led to this whole start of my first business
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called postie redesign. Parcel boxes, like attached to a
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house to receive deliveries from you.
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That business I closed in lockdown, so that was March 2020
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and my final year of university and then started my second one
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house hack. I didn't know the time.
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That was just a passion project between housemates and lockdown.
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But that became my second business.
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It turned into a profitable business and we enjoyed the
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journey, had a lot of fun along the way.
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And then over the next year and a half, two years, we were self
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funded, able to travel around the UK and make an actual living
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from it. But then I got to a point where
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I felt that I outgrew it and I wanted to move on to the next
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thing. So I closed that business.
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The second one had a portfolio career for a while where I
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figured things out. And then I moved back home and
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decided to really sit with what I want to spend the rest of my
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life doing and why on Earth was my own golden thread.
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And that really focused me on the future of careers and the
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future of work. Since the start of 2023, I've
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really kind of narrowed myself down to that being the core
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focus I've already spent my time on.
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And that's, that's everything that's happened since, which is,
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yeah, you know, a beauty and a blessing.
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It's a beauty and a blessing indeed.
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And I also really like how you work with a lot of people that
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have many interests. And from your kind of
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description of all the entrepreneurial activities and
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initiatives that you started, I think that very bold move of
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turning down Deloitte and choosing to work for yourself
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that year. I think that's, you know, all
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the hallmarks of a serial entrepreneur.
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I found it really interesting that you decided to go kind of
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away from building a product based business to now focusing
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on working with people and enabling people that have many
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interests to really, I guess to the same process that you were
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able to do in the past few years, which is find that golden
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thread through your life and then build your life around it.
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Charlie, I'm also quite curious, how do you manage to stay
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motivated over all of those entrepreneurial activities and
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even your work right now with the undefined IT was leading a
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business or being an entrepreneur.
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That can be quite a lonely journey sometimes.
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Yeah. So this is something that I
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actually talk about in my upcoming book as well.
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I talk about it being that there are different fuels of
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motivation. So for me, one of them is the
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purpose, the second is profit, and the third is play.
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And how do I bring them all into everything that I do?
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The community is a great example of this for me in the sense that
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it's always intended to be a nonprofit.
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It doesn't pay me directly, and that's on purpose because I want
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it to be something that can sustain us.
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Everyone as a member contributes to it.
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And so there's also a line here that I have to draw where if
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it's not-for-profit, how do I stay motivated on the money
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side? How do I actually make a living
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from this that can build wealth for myself and my family in the
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future? And so there came to a head
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where I had to decide that, OK, I'm going to split the the kind
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of brand into underfundable communities, being focused on
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those in the age of discovery between 22 and 35, providing the
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intimate spaces. And that being all about the way
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we have a community events that we do, we do retreats, we do
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monthly workshops and we do celebrations throughout the
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year. And that's the scope of the
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community and that's what it's all about.
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And yes, I might lead it, but everyone contributes.
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But then on the for profit side created Undefinable Life Design
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as the brand. And that's where I host the
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workshops and do the one to one coaching.
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And it's also where I'm writing the book.
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And so me staying motivated is allowing myself to turn up as
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the sort of playful version of myself in the community where I
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know that this isn't paying me. Even though there might be
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sometimes clients within it who I work on a coaching basis or
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they might come to some of the workshops or you read the book.
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I am selfishly motivated to build the community in the sense
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that it deepens my understanding of the persona and it creates
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advocates of what I'm building elsewhere.
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But it also then allows me to have it as a place that I can
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play and show up as my full self.
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In fact, there was a retreat back in May where that kind of
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came to a head where I felt like I was having to wear a mask of
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being the one that handled the answers.
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Because in the community then was several clients.
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There's my partner, there's friends.
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There's a lot of levels to that, that blur and blend.
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And that's part of the beauty of life.
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But it's also can be a little bit overwhelming to have so many
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of your connections in one place because you don't know how to
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shop for all of them. And I found that when I shared
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that with everyone and said to them, like, this is a struggle
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that I've had and I was just naming it, it allowed me then to
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kind of show up as a more integrated version of myself.
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And to say, look, just own the challenges that I'm in and
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realize that there are other people there that might be a
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client, yes, but they can also see me for a fellow friend and
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community member too. And so even though we're
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blurring the different labels, it allows myself to feel a sense
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of relief when I turn up those events too.
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There's also the element of being able to delegate to like
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bring other people in to support with some of the community
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building and the retreat leading and the workshops.
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That allows me to spend my focus on the for profit side and
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making a career and living out of what I'm doing too.
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So I'd say there's a delegation where possible.
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There's an understanding of where to blur and where to set
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boundaries. And then for me, it's enabling
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myself to stay motivated by sort of having enough income coming
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in, but also hitting that purpose every time I deliver
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something to. That initial struggle that you
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had of trying to show up in different ways to different
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people in your life at one particular retreat, I think that
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actually quite resonated with me.
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And I think the fight, fight, you were able to share your
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vulnerability with everyone and then also allow people in
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different parts of your life to see aspects of you that maybe
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they weren't Privy to before. I think that's quite a yeah, I
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think that's quite a supportive move to do, has always been
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quite a core part of your life. Can you talk about, you know,
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some of the failures or maybe learnings from your time as a
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sportsperson and how that really affects the work that you do
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now? For sure, yeah, it's definitely
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integrated into how I see the world.
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And if you want to continue talking, you'll probably see
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some lenses come out from the sport aspect too.
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I started running when I was 14. I joined as one of the worst
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ones there at my club at school. And by the time I left at 18,
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I'd continued showing up and just got better and better and
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became vice captain at that point.
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And I was like, oh, this is something that I know I can get
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better at things. It proves that I can go from
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being not very competent to being actually competent at
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something. And that was the first sort of
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siege of being able to reinforce this idea that if I commit, I
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can get better at it. And I applied that first from
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that 14 to 18 in sport. But also then I applied it to my
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academics and went from ACC in AS levels and resettled my exams
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and my final year of school and got a star a A at the end of it
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as well. So I went from okay, I can get
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good at sport, so I can get good at academics and then now I can
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get good at anything I put my mind too.
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So it really enabled me to think bigger and to trust myself as
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well. That then only continues to show
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up through the sport over time. So I went to Loughborough for
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when I was 18 to 22, and that was an environment where they're
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all GB athletes and you go from being OK, I'm vice captain, I'm
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pretty good at this club, to being one of the worst ones
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again. They start normalizing 100 mile
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weeks. You get used to them talking
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about nutrition, double days, doing 1012 runs a week.
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That's pretty normal. Going on the track and being,
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yeah, the bottom third again, but over time worked on it, how
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to coach and got better throughout those four years.
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Got to my final year and then actually had COVID happened.
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So I was actually the fittest I'd been.
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I was excited to go and race on the track and, you know, put it
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all out there and have all the shining lights.
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But actually they all got cancelled that year and they all
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got cancelled for the following year because close contact to
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running means that it's a bit harder to organize those races.
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They were few and far between and when the races did come up,
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everyone was snapping them up like they were everything to to
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be had as well. And so over the following year I
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kind of focused more on business.
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And then end of sort of summer of 2021, I got COVID myself and
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just like, oh, I feel pretty bad.
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Haven't really left the house in like 2 weeks.
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And now my fitness has just gone off the Cliff edge.
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I'm like, what do I do with my time?
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How do I commit to a new goal that's worthwhile?
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I had on my list like do an Iron Man and that was like a 10 year
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aspirational bucket list goal. I was like, what am I waiting
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for? Let me just sign up for it.
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So I signed up for the following year in summer 2022 and I moved
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to London this September 21 and I was like, right, OK, time to
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join a Tri club. I'm obviously quite good at
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running but had to pick up cycling and swimming.
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So it became a way of expanding myself beyond the labour, the
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runner to become a triathlete in this way.
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And I saw myself being able to, yeah, expand the identity that I
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had. And that was really powerful.
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And I sort of saw how running could become a great basis for
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cycling, particularly on hills where your power to weight ratio
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is very important. And my likeness as a runner was
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useful in that regard as well. I trained really hard over the
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winter, was my own coach. I applied the principles of
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running to triathlon. And then I got out to May, went
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out to a training camp in Majorca with the club, was
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really excited by it. I've been on this aluminium bike
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all winter and they handed me this carbon bike which if you
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don't know is a lot lighter than the aluminium bike.
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And so I was flying up the hills and was really enjoying myself
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getting some good club bests on the hill climbs.
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And then on the days where we had 150 K day on the bike and
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got about 100K in, did all of the ascent and then was feeling
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really happy myself, maybe a bit too proud of sort of how fast I
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was. So decided Decided to take the
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descents a little too quickly and there were about 3
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switchbacks in quick succession, which kind of that day the the
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rain had been falling and the leaves were on the ground and it
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was getting a bit slippy. But you know, I was a bit
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overconfident at the time. So I took the corners at 63
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kilometers an hour. And then by the third turn I
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sort of realized, oh, these brakes aren't breaking hard
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enough. And I kind of had a decision to
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make, which was I could either lean left and lean my whole body
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into the tarmac and scrape it across the ground, or I could
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hit the crash barrier that's going over this bridge and go
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over the edge. And I chose the ladder.
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I'm not sure how much of A choice that was given.
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It's more of a subconscious one, but.
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Neither were great options were they were.
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Not great options at all. Maybe there's also hit the
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brakes harder, I don't know but I tried and the bike was shaking
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so I definitely did my best to slide myself down but hit the
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crash barrier and went over. There's like a 10 foot drop and
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then this river with rocks below.
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And I remember just like going over, you kind of go through
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that period of feeling like it's surreal, like what's what's
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going on here? And then you go over and I
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basically like pick myself up from the side of this Cliff and
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pull myself up the side of the road.
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And by the time I'm up it, I'm like, whoa, OK, the adrenaline's
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worn off and everything hurts now.
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And so then I lie down and I have a team with me because I'm
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out training on a training camp, so they'll stop.
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Everyone throws jackets on me. I'm like, like, I know 20
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jackets keep me warm or so. Yeah.
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They call the the ambulance and put like a tin, a foil wrapped
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around me as well from a medical bag somewhere.
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And they bring up top of this mountainside, pray to wait like
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an hour or so for it. When my friends jumps in the
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back of the ambulance with me and they drop me up on morphine,
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take me to hospital and they do all these X-rays on my arms and
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the scouts come back and they say the only thing I've broken
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is my little finger. How lucky.
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How lucky indeed. Everything else is like bruised
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and it will heal in time. It did hurt a lot at that time
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and I have got some scars down my arms from the barbed wire on
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that client as well that still exists to this day.
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But they said to me the same day they were like if you can prove
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you can walk, you can go home. And I was like, well you've drug
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me up enough, I can walk if I'm nothing's broken, sure.
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So what with some pain and then went home the same day back to
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the hotel and then felt sorry myself for the next week where I
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sat by the poolside. Whatever.
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I went out on a nice rides and then I had to make a choice.
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OK, I've got his Iron Man in what is now a month and a half's
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time. Do I, you know, wait and get fit
17:56
again and just cross a line or do I to instead decide to defer
18:02
it by year and train properly and do it to the best of my
18:06
abilities? And I sat with that thought for
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quite a while because I was like, maybe if I just push
18:11
through, maybe I can just do it. You know, I'm here to finish a
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goal. I'm just about the achievement.
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But then I found that actually deferring a year was the harder
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thing to do because it required me to recommit for another 12
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months and to actually take on the challenge of training again,
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but going even deeper into the the world of triathlon and
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endurance sport. And so I did that.
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I decided to fur buy a year and then I did a half Iron Man that
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September. Has had a few months to get fit
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again, Actually qualified for world champs as well, which was
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pretty cool. And so then I felt confident
18:49
myself. Last night let me invest in a
18:50
pro coach. I worked with a silver medalist
18:53
at the Commonwealth Games and they gave me a training plan.
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I put 15 to 20 hours a week into it every week for nine months
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from September through till June, July the following year of
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2023. And that's where I did my Iron
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Man. And you know, this is the the
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race I've been preparing for for what is now 2 years at that
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point. And I'd had these time estimates
19:15
in my mind, I won in the sub 10 hours because it's a nice, nice
19:18
time. I'd pick the hardest race
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basically out there, which was Iron Man UK like had about, was
19:24
it 2703 thousand meters elevation on the bike and hilly
19:29
run and swim as well. And so, you know, I was
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thinking, you know, what if, what if I can keep pushing these
19:35
different times that I want to get further and further.
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And so when I did the race, I got 11 hours, 3 minutes, which
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by all measures is pretty good. I put me 7 in my age group and I
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think like yes, overall or something, which is pretty good
19:50
for a first Iron Man. But at the time when I crossed
19:53
that line, beyond just feeling my whole body start to cramp
19:56
because of lack of salts, I also was thinking, wow, OK, you know,
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I haven't achieved my goal. Like what was the point?
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It doesn't really feel that good because I've weighed the
20:04
expectations so highly. It felt like I had a yes no
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outcome to the race rather than having a sort of, it's just a
20:11
great experience anyway and a bonus if I achieved my time.
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I'd very much formatted it in a way of I want it to be this
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success. And it wasn't that success, but
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it was a different version. I then did the Iron Man, 70
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points, three world champs that summer.
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I had a great time, would also train that year.
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I managed to qualify for representing GB at the age group
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European Trath on the following year in 2024.
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So then got a running coach again, committed to doing the
20:38
London Marathon because I got my best times that year with
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triathlon and went to London Marathon.
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I applied the same mindset, obviously haven't learned
20:46
anything by this point and was like, oh, let me try and get sub
20:49
two hours 30 in my my marathon, which by all measures is a great
20:53
time again. And and I went to the race
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trained all sort of all year for it.
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And I crossed the line in two hours, 40, and the first half of
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the race was one hour 1449. So like bang on the exact like
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half marathon time I need. And then the second-half, you
21:14
could look at my pace graph on Strawberry.
21:16
It's rather amusing. It just drops off at like 30 K
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and then I have to like pick it up again.
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And the last sort of like 5K is just increasing again.
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But there's this big nose lie between 30 and 35 Ki.
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Remember in that race when I was just running down the sort of
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home straight from Monument across back to to Westminster
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and Oh yeah, I was just getting overtaken all the time because
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I've obviously started faster. So everyone's kind of beyond me
21:42
with faster average speeds. And this felt like I was going
21:45
backwards. And there's all these crowds
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like cheering at you, sort of shouting and there's no, it's
21:49
the most busy experience you ever you ever have.
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And it was rather overwhelming as well, but made it to the sort
21:55
of last home straight and yeah, cross the line by getting faster
21:59
all the time. And yeah, the two hours 40 I got
22:02
there, like it took me a little while to reframe that.
22:05
At first I was like disappointed that I got on a stitch and I'd
22:08
hit the runners wall as everyone does in that first marathon.
22:11
But after I'd say a few days a week, I was like, actually, you
22:14
know, I'm proud of how I showed up.
22:15
I'm proud of the fact that I finished that race.
22:17
I could have just dropped out and been like, oh, I'm just feel
22:19
bad. No, OK, I won't do it.
22:21
But I still actually crossed the line.
22:23
And I think that that then helped me unlearn that mindset a
22:26
little bit. And so when it came to the
22:29
European Championships for the triathlon that summer, I then
22:32
approached a bit differently. I was like, you know what, I'm
22:34
actually just going to enjoy that race.
22:36
I'm going to have fun. I've already done the hard part
22:38
of qualifying, so it doesn't really matter where I finish.
22:41
It's more about just showing up, getting a nice GB vest, putting
22:44
it on socials and being, look, I'm a credible guy.
22:46
So like, that's why I went along to France, to Vichy and actually
22:49
out there. I even managed to on the bike
22:53
and slipped around the corner and the bike went underneath me.
22:55
I had to pick it up again with these bent handlebars and
22:58
finished the race in a very slow way because I wouldn't want to
23:00
risk falling over again this pouring rain.
23:03
But I was happy. I was like, yeah, I had fun and
23:05
it was good and I enjoyed it. And I felt like this is a
23:08
reframe for me. It's no longer about a time or a
23:11
place. It's more about the experience
23:13
and the adventure. So following that race, there's
23:16
one more. I went and signed up for an
23:19
Ultramarathon, which on paper sounds like I'm just following
23:22
the same path here. But actually when I got to the
23:26
ultra marathon and done the training at the start of this
23:28
year and went out to it in May to France and to Strasbourg, I
23:33
actually had a very different mindset again.
23:35
I was like, okay, I'm gonna listen to my body.
23:36
I'm gonna integrate both the achiever, the one that wants to
23:40
compete and to push hard with the one that understands my
23:43
emotion and can integrate it more.
23:45
And that's been the theme of 2025 is emotional integration.
23:49
And so when I got like 87 K into that ultra marathon when I was
23:54
running down the hill and came to the aid station while it's
23:57
getting dark, I found myself out of out of breath.
24:01
And I was like, oh, wow, OK, I need to speak to like a first
24:04
aid. People always spoke to them and
24:06
they're like, you've just been pushing the last section too
24:07
hard. Just sit down for a bit, chill
24:09
out and you'll be fine. And I remember with my support
24:12
team sitting there and I literally stayed there for like
24:14
an hour and a half in the that's.
24:17
A long time. Which is a long time in a race.
24:19
Yeah. Yeah, you got a cut off of like
24:21
24 hours. And I had again a broad time of
24:24
16 to 20 hours. In my mind, I wanted to achieve
24:26
it him, so to wait an hour and a half is a long time in a race.
24:30
But got my food in, chatted to people.
24:33
I went from looking like a ghost at the beginning to like
24:35
actually having my color back. And I put my head torch on and
24:39
ascended the last climb and then brought it home in like 18
24:42
hours, 45 or so. So I still achieved my aim and
24:46
managed to cross the line by overtaking a guy in the last 100
24:50
meters as well. So I still had fun.
24:51
I still had the competitive element, but I think what was
24:53
different here and what I now carry forward with me is the
24:56
ability to integrate the emotion and to take that as part of who
25:01
I am so I can have a more adventure focused aspect to
25:05
sport rather than it being purely about achievement too.
25:08
And a more well-rounded enjoyment of all the sport and
25:11
training that you're doing. The story out that you describe
25:15
for someone who goes from a really focused, almost single
25:18
minded determination to achieve a very specific result to
25:22
someone who's they got a few punches or even actually have an
25:26
internal change to reframe it as you were saying, to actually
25:29
enjoying the process and also celebrating the wings that you
25:31
were able to do. I'm going to ask you a question
25:34
because I think to a certain degree, I think I have a similar
25:37
personality type to you in terms of I can be very single minded
25:41
once I have a goal that I want to work towards and that's all
25:44
that I want to do. And sometimes I lose track of
25:46
enjoying the process or enjoying that more emotional aspect as
25:49
well. How did that reframe actually
25:51
come about for you? Was it something that came to
25:53
you internally by your own introspection, or did you have
25:57
help from other people around you?
25:59
How did that whole journey come about for you?
26:01
I would try this back to the last two years.
26:04
I would say the beginning of 2024.
26:07
My theme of 2024 was emotional thawing, and I knew that by
26:10
that. The second week of January, I
26:12
was reflecting that I write my newsletter and I push it out
26:16
weekly. And in that weekly newsletter I
26:18
was like, this year is about emotional thawing, like I
26:20
already know it. And it only became more true.
26:23
I became more aware of how I show up in are the social
26:27
situations, how I can be more emotional.
26:30
And in fact, I remember speaking to a friend and I was describing
26:34
one of the stories that I'd had from a past relationship.
26:36
I gave it the same robotic answer that I'd always given in
26:39
the fact that I'd shared the story so many times that it no
26:42
longer felt like it connected to me.
26:44
I was just sharing it to speak about it and connect with them,
26:48
but wasn't actually revealing a vulnerability of me.
26:50
And they called me out for hours, like, oh, OK, yeah,
26:53
that's fair play. I'm not actually being very open
26:56
or emotional here. I'm just repeating and parroting
26:58
what I've said before. And that I think started a
27:01
process of understanding that for me, I need to, I want to
27:05
show up more as who I am and more integrated version of
27:09
myself that can answer those questions more authentically.
27:12
And so that times by being my partner, Jess as well, who I'm
27:17
sure she might be saying this is a more emotional based person
27:20
for her to like bring that out and me as well.
27:22
And for us to have a lot of great chats and a meaningful
27:25
dialogue over the last two years is definitely being a source of
27:29
that reflection and a source of that kind of not seeing emotion
27:33
as the enemy. And I think if I think about
27:35
Khachogi, he often would describe you have to become a
27:38
master of your emotions and you cannot be a subject to it.
27:41
And it's often placing emotions as being the thing that leads
27:45
you to do the wrong thing and to be responsive in ways that you
27:49
don't intend. If you lean purely on a logic
27:52
basis, you just end up thinking that emotions are things to be
27:56
avoided because they limit me in achieving things.
28:00
But what I've learned in the last two years is that they are
28:02
valuable signals to understanding yourself and
28:05
situations. I wouldn't necessarily quite
28:08
lean as hard onto emotions always, right?
28:10
I don't think that's necessarily true.
28:11
But they are powerful signals for understanding who you are,
28:15
where you are, and what's important to you.
28:17
And so by listening to them and tuning into them, you are able
28:21
then to hear what you need. And so when you ask me about how
28:26
do I like motivate myself, like I can find there, I'm more able
28:31
to connect to myself and understand what's missing.
28:33
And that becomes really powerful as well because I can then make
28:37
tweaks and changes and I can show up wholly as myself by
28:43
listening to the body at the same time as pursuing things
28:47
relentlessly with the mind as well.
28:48
The way I frame in the book, it's actually my chapter that I
28:51
added in this final version of the book is about the body first
28:56
listening to the signals, being able to integrate them into
28:58
decisions, and then also updating your baseline.
29:01
So when I think about sport, for me, I also see it as, like, I
29:05
mean, I want to do every week for the rest of my life because
29:08
it's a great baseline for me. It's showing up elsewhere.
29:10
And so by listening to signals, I can be like, what other
29:12
baseline changes do I want to make?
29:14
Do I want to make sure that I have a date night every week?
29:17
Do I want to make sure that I'm always eating certain foods
29:20
every week? Yeah, OK, I can do that.
29:22
But I can only do that if I can hear my body asking for it.
29:25
And I feel with that mindset, you can apply both a logic and
29:29
an emotion to it, and it becomes really strong.
29:31
Reading emotions as signals, I think that's quite a useful
29:35
thing to do. I also think that a lot of the
29:37
times young people, and it could be people who are 20s, thirties,
29:41
it's difficult to be able to accurately read what your
29:44
signals or your emotions are trying to tell you.
29:47
How have you found that yourself?
29:49
And I said, what advice would you give to someone who maybe
29:51
are trying to read more into their emotions and understand
29:54
what that signal is, but they find sometimes they're not
29:57
making the right decisions from what they are feeling?
30:01
Great question. Depends a lot on the individual.
30:04
I'd say the key element here to look for is the frequency of the
30:07
emotion. So if the emotion and the
30:10
frequency is high, you're feeling it very often, then it's
30:13
worth pursuing it and applying some logic and reflection and
30:17
journaling to understand it. If it's a one off, OK, cool, we
30:21
could probably ignore it, it's probably OK.
30:23
But if it's also really irrational, that's something
30:28
worth exploring in a different way where it might be an
30:31
emotional trigger. That's worth exploring with a
30:33
therapist by looking into your past patterns and how this thing
30:35
that's seemingly innocent that someone does or environment that
30:39
you're in that doesn't, it shouldn't affect you in this
30:41
way, but it does. That's something that's worth
30:44
diving into your past about. And like for me, an example
30:47
there is around like sometimes I don't like being in corners of
30:51
rooms or having people stand up while everyone else is sitting
30:54
down. I find that really weird.
30:56
And I can't say I have the words to describe why that is.
30:58
I don't know if there's probably a child experience of one person
31:00
standing up, other people sitting down.
31:02
But because I know that it's like a kind of weird quirk about
31:06
myself where I can kind of get a bit anxious of someone standing
31:09
up and everyone else sitting down.
31:11
And I'm like, oh, OK, can you just do you mind sitting down
31:13
there? Is that OK?
31:14
And now I feel able to ask that of someone and it not be a weird
31:18
thing versus because before I'd be like, oh I'm just brush it
31:21
off. I'm the one being weird.
31:23
But actually here if I can go, hey man, I'm not really sure why
31:25
I feel this way. But having one person stand out
31:27
where everyone sits down, it feels a bit uncomfortable for
31:29
me. Like would you mind sitting down
31:30
with the rest of us? That's so interesting because
31:32
that reminds me of a classroom, like a standard classroom where
31:35
the teacher stands up the front and everyone else has sat down.
31:38
So yeah, very, very interesting. Maybe it comes from that, maybe
31:41
I've got a teaching experience to reflect on or dive into your
31:44
therapy. I'm not sure yet.
31:45
But at least by understanding what causes it, I can then
31:49
request a change that doesn't make me feel uncomfortable.
31:51
But also if I then got deeper in therapy I'm sure I could unknown
31:55
some as patterns too. Well, as you were speaking, I
31:57
was also thinking, you know, one of the things that I noticed,
31:59
we're growing up and interacting more with people in older
32:03
generations than I am, It's actually realizing that no
32:05
request is weird. I feel like it might seem weird
32:08
or unjustified in your own head, or sometimes I can overthink
32:11
things before asking this. What?
32:13
But then what I've actually learned through experience in
32:15
many groups is actually, if you ask for something, generally the
32:18
group is quite happy to let that happen.
32:20
And I think people are generally more accommodating than they can
32:24
seem to be. I want to pick up on something
32:26
that you mentioned because writing a first book, that is no
32:29
small feat. I am excited to read a book, but
32:32
I wanted to ask you now for you, what was the most humbling or
32:37
transformative part of that process for you?
32:39
I laugh because it's kind of, it's obvious in my mind.
32:42
I think it's when you think your first draft is your final
32:45
manuscript. And then of like 20 community
32:48
members that I asked for feedback.
32:50
I start with those that are closest to me, which are the
32:52
community members, and then work further out.
32:54
Then I have those that are interested in being undefinable
32:57
but know me less, and then those that are advocates or relate to
33:01
it that don't yet know me, and then those who are complete
33:03
strangers. So each part of the drafting
33:05
processes goes wider and wider. And that first draft at the end
33:10
of February this year when I had it, I feel so proud of this.
33:13
This is so good. This is not a best work.
33:15
And then when I put it out to 20 community members and they gave
33:20
me feedback on it, I was like, oh, you're like, no, fair
33:23
enough. That feedback's good.
33:24
Let me see what I can do to integrate it.
33:25
I worked then with Rob Fitzpatrick for a month with
33:29
with him where he went through and I sort of understood his
33:32
like write useful books methodology where we work
33:36
together on how we could use beta reading to improve a book
33:39
and to reduce drop off and to make it engaging.
33:42
And yeah, when I looked at the book, I was like, oh, OK,
33:44
there's definitely more I can do here.
33:46
And now I'm on version 4I look back at V1 and I'm like, oh God,
33:52
yeah, this is a way better book now.
33:54
And I can see my initial ideas there and looking back, you can
33:58
see how that the genesis of what has become now.
34:02
But by having a central metaphor and framing and almost spine of
34:07
the book that I've got going through at it now, it goes from
34:09
being a collection of essays to being now like a hearing world
34:13
and narrative that brings someone on a journey of how to
34:16
design their life. That transformation is huge
34:19
because it's sometimes the work that people don't do is they
34:23
assume their first draft is the best and they're like, as an
34:26
author or a creator, you're thinking, wow, yeah, I know what
34:29
I'm doing, I'm going to create this.
34:31
But actually by being humble and by being honest and open and
34:34
taking the feedback on, I've created a 10 times better
34:38
outcome that I am now deeply proud of and I believe I'll be
34:41
proud of in 10 years time as well.
34:44
Even by working with like a cover illustrator now to see the
34:47
books like front cover and back cover and being like, wow, this
34:50
is so cool. I could have just used Canvas as
34:52
a self published author, but actually by having someone that
34:55
I pay to do it and they understand what I'm building and
34:58
for them to bring back to me and bring it to life, I'm like, wow,
35:00
this is awesome. And then working also with my
35:03
old running coach who happens to also be an illustrator, which is
35:06
really cool. The metaphor here is about what
35:09
I call the undefinable ascent and it's about climbing a
35:12
mountain of your own design and how you how you assemble that.
35:16
He is the perfect person for that.
35:17
He's a runner and he's a legislator and we have that
35:20
connection. So now seeing that come together
35:22
is really powerful as well. I'd say the value of feedback
35:27
and iteration throughout the process and how your first draft
35:31
is a long way from your final version.
35:33
But yeah, now having the final version, I think I can
35:36
appreciate that. What's your advice to someone
35:38
who wants to write the first book?
35:41
Get in the habit of writing first.
35:43
I started with 1000 words a week back in 2021.
35:49
That was my my goals for a year. That's that's very achievement
35:52
orientated. Yeah, I set his goals that would
35:53
like achieve them. Like anything.
35:56
I was like learn German that year and I was like, OK, let me
35:59
get a German person to teach me it.
36:01
And I got the calls each week and I was like all about
36:03
routine, you know, routine, habit stacking.
36:05
I was on like a 900 day meditation streak or whatever.
36:08
But like by consistently writing first, I had like 30,000 words
36:13
by September 21 that I could then by March 22 turn into a
36:19
newsletter. And I was like, oh, OK, I've got
36:21
the 1st 12 to 20 posts kind of half written already, so I can
36:25
then adapt that into a newsletter.
36:26
And then when I had the cadence to begin pushing out there into
36:30
the world, one newsletter, I was like, OK, now I keep evolving
36:32
the topics. It becomes about something else.
36:34
And then now it became about undefinedable life design.
36:37
And that wouldn't have happened had I not hit publish the first
36:41
time around and not consistently push my work out into the world.
36:45
So I'd say if you want to write a book, write a newsletter
36:48
first, because you'll get in the habit of pushing using content
36:51
out regularly, and you'll get in the habit of realizing that your
36:53
first draft isn't your best version.
36:56
And you'll get your ideas on paper, which is half the work
36:59
when it comes to formatting it in a coherent narrative for
37:02
other people to enjoy and find value from.
37:05
What do you think about people who use AI for content creation?
37:09
I think it's, it depends how you use it.
37:11
This is the the challenge in today's world.
37:14
If you're using it to first draft what you're doing and it's
37:17
clear that the AI is just taking the world's average and pulling
37:21
it into what you do, That I believe is a problem.
37:25
I think as a thinking partner and in my case, an editor for
37:29
the book, it's great in that I can take my first draft.
37:32
I've written mine myself and I can say, OK, here's some
37:35
feedback that I've got from people.
37:36
Can you summarize their feedback into key themes and then suggest
37:41
as we go through chapter by chapter, paragraph by paragraph,
37:43
OK, how would you improve it based on this?
37:45
OK, great. I think that points good.
37:47
That point not so good. So I think as a thinking partner
37:50
and an editor, it can be really valuable and very powerful
37:54
because you imagine if I was in this process and doing it
37:57
published, then I would have a person on the end of a e-mail
38:01
who would say to me as my editor, have you tried this?
38:03
Have you tried that? I would work with other people
38:05
in that way. But I believe that if you rely
38:07
on it for creativity and the first draft and the original
38:11
ideas, that's your problem, because you're then just pulling
38:15
ideas from the ether that already exists from other
38:17
people's language and background, rather than drawing
38:21
what is your own uniqueness as well.
38:22
So I believe it can be an amplifier for what you're
38:25
already doing. It'd be really powerful for
38:27
that. Or if you rely on it too
38:29
heavily, you can just begin to sound like everyone else.
38:33
Charlie, I want to ask you because I think your experiences
38:35
as an athlete and also an entrepreneur, these are typical
38:40
personality types where perseverance and grit, so
38:44
repeated trying on a daily basis really pays off in the longer
38:47
term. Have you ever given up on
38:50
anything in your life that you've started before?
38:55
Giving up depends a lot on the length of time through which you
38:59
view the horizon. So you could say I gave up my
39:02
first business in the sense that I took it to having a ready to
39:07
fat manufacture like product design and I had prototypes that
39:11
worked on a wall that could receive deliveries.
39:14
I had about 203 hundred people on a new seller who could
39:17
potentially be open to buying the product.
39:19
I had a team of three of us who were building it together and I
39:23
was bootstrapping it. But then I decided do I want to
39:27
sell parcel boxes for the next 5 years?
39:29
And I asked that question and realized, or I have to go on a
39:33
crowdfunding journey to achieve that, I'd have to stand as the
39:36
parcel box person. But believe it or not, I'm not
39:39
that passionate about parcel boxes, but I love the team
39:41
building. I love the entrepreneurial
39:43
journey there. And so designed to close that
39:45
business, you could label a failure with a smaller time
39:48
horizon, but with a wider one. I would describe that as a
39:51
success in the then unknowingly started the genesis of the
39:54
following month house hack, which again is a profitable
39:58
business that made money the them by the end of the following
40:02
year. Decided to close that as well,
40:03
which again, if you had narrowed on that horizon, you might say
40:07
that that's a failure to like why didn't you adapt that for a
40:09
post COVID world and bring it out from being virtual to being
40:13
in person? And I was like I didn't want to
40:14
do that. I feel like it's legacy and what
40:16
it stood for was the virtual hackathons that we built.
40:20
And so then being able to transition into a portfolio
40:24
career and figure things out for a for a year and a bit or so
40:28
thereafterwards. There's many failures within
40:30
that as well, but I'd say also you can view the repeated
40:36
attempts at achieving times in sport and not achieving them as
40:40
failures to. But overall, I'd say I gave
40:46
everything my best shot that I wanted to.
40:49
I think that that's the only thing you can do.
40:51
And yes, you might set metrics and outcomes and milestones that
40:55
are nice numbers to be had, but if you've given it the best
41:00
effort you could to achieve that thing and you're content with
41:03
how you showed up. When I look at the London
41:05
Marathon, this is the key example of OK, I didn't achieve
41:08
a time, but I didn't quit the race.
41:10
I still finished the race and pushed through to the end
41:13
regardless of the time, even though I was getting overtaken,
41:16
even though my body was screaming at me, even though the
41:18
whole streets were overwhelming with crowd.
41:20
And I feel like they are failures to some in the I'm not
41:25
hitting a self intended goal, but in a lot of ways successes
41:30
to me because they teach me a lesson and they show
41:33
perseverance and I think that they are the bigger qualities
41:37
over success and failure. Your journey is also a journey
41:42
of someone who has periodically reinvented themselves and almost
41:47
have different personas and also different or focuses in their
41:51
life over that time. One question then.
41:53
So if we have a listener or maybe somewhere in my 20s or
41:56
30s, they have many interests and they are trying to reinvent
41:59
themselves, but they sometimes felt scattered in how they're
42:01
doing it. What do you think is 1 simple
42:05
shift that they can do this week to feel more aligned internally?
42:08
Beginning the process of building your purpose, Acropolis
42:12
as I call it, which the starting point of reflecting and writing
42:17
down what all your many interests are and then grouping
42:19
them into higher level categories.
42:21
So when I say being a runner, being a triathlete, being a
42:26
cyclist, being a hiker, what am I really saying here?
42:30
Am I saying that I like endurance sports?
42:32
Am I saying I like adventure sports?
42:34
Like when you identify the category with which your
42:37
interests exist in, you give yourself permission to both grow
42:41
but also gain deeper expertise within that area so you can stay
42:44
focused while also appreciating how you have room to evolve.
42:49
So when I think about how I took on triathlon after starting
42:53
running, I had 1/3 of the sport that I'm pretty good at and that
42:56
helped a lot with the racing and it helped a lot with being able
43:00
to build on that success. There are a lot of other parts
43:03
of life where there are synergies and overlaps between
43:06
being good at one thing makes you good at other things.
43:09
So say you might be good at an instrument, is there room to add
43:12
another instrument that still fits within a similar skill set?
43:15
This probably is. If that's something that you
43:16
want to do. Understand the categories that
43:18
draw to you and labeling them in the right way can be really
43:22
powerful for then allowing yourself to offer that freedom
43:26
of exploration and living while also deepening your proficiency
43:31
in certain areas that you can then commit to for a long enough
43:34
time to go deep in. To then be able to give back to
43:37
the world and to show up in a way that you can then recombine
43:41
those categories together and create propositions and offers
43:44
as well. But I said the starting point is
43:46
understanding that your interests fit within bigger
43:49
categories that offer you room to grow.
43:51
Wonderful. And I think for anyone who's
43:53
listening, I think more, well, I think a lot more can be learned
43:56
either by going along to one of your gatherings or reading the
43:59
book when it does come out. Charlie, it's been a pleasure to
44:01
have you on the podcast today. Let me end by asking you below
44:05
to grow podcast staple, which is what is one thing that you think
44:08
will allow more people to have better mental health?
44:11
I think by understanding and integrating energy as a equal
44:15
motivation to the pursuit of goals and the pursuit of
44:19
thereby, income is something that I think is really, really
44:23
powerful. It's something that I've
44:26
included as a distinct part of my book in that it has four
44:29
parts, and one of the parts is on the energy toolkit.
44:32
But I think that that's fundamental to enjoying life and
44:37
to having better mental health is that you need to be able to
44:41
appreciate what gives you energy and what takes it away and how
44:45
you can shape your environments. You can pace your progress.
44:48
You can think pretty clearly about being intentional with
44:51
your energy. And that for me is is pretty
44:54
huge. And amongst that, if I had to
44:56
give a more practical point, is join communities.
45:00
Get around people who share the same values as you, not that
45:04
they have the same labels. I'm not saying join a run club
45:06
because we're all runners here. I'm saying find communities of
45:10
people that have a similar world perspective and value the same
45:14
thing as you do, even if they come from completely different
45:16
backgrounds and they're interested in completely
45:18
different things. Sit with them, share ideas,
45:21
relate to them, learn from them. Because it's the people that you
45:26
meet and the ones that you get to connect with that make this
45:29
whole journey a lot more meaningful.
45:30
So then for the undefinable community, what are the core
45:33
values? Just testing me.
45:36
So respectful curiosity is the top one.
45:39
And where you ask with the intention to learn and you
45:42
listen fully to the answers. There's emotional bravery where
45:46
you're willing to confront difficult experience that you
45:48
have and share them openly. There's collective
45:51
responsibility where you leave people, places, and projects in
45:55
a better way than you found them.
45:56
There's purposeful action where you think in decades, act in
45:59
hours, and ship ideas before they're ready.
46:02
And then there's being seriously silly, which, you know, you do
46:06
all these hard things, you think about all the serious stuff, but
46:09
you're also not afraid to laugh along the way.
46:11
Wonderful night to end on. Thank you very much for coming
46:14
on to Lotto Grow. Thank you Annie for having me.
46:16
I really appreciate it. Thank you for listening.
46:19
You excited for the next episode?
46:21
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46:25
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46:27
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46:30
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time.