Latest / The Mental Health Evolution / Ep 44: They Knew and They Profited Anyway with Matthew Bergman

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Ep 44: They Knew and They Profited Anyway with Matthew Bergman · The Mental Health Evolution

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) This podcast is part of the Frederick podcast
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network.
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Learn more at listenfrederick.com.
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Welcome to Mental Health Evolution, a podcast about
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what's changing in mental health and why it
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matters.
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I'm your host, Rachel Harrison, inviting you into
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honest conversations with people from all perspectives in
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the field, clinicians, tech founders, investors, insurance companies,
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and all the folks in between.
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Let's explore what's working, what's not, and what's
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next.
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Welcome back, everyone, to the Mental Health Evolution
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podcast, where we talk about how the landscape
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is rapidly evolving in the mental health industry.
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Today, we are joined by Matthew Bergman, founding
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attorney of the Social Media Victims Law Center.
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Social media is everywhere in our clients' lives,
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and the mental health consequences are impossible to
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ignore.
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Rates of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation among young
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people have climbed alongside the rise of these
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platforms, and for years, the companies behind them
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have faced almost no legal accountability.
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That is starting to change.
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This past March, a Los Angeles jury made
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history by finding Meta and YouTube negligent in
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the design of their platforms and awarding $6
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million in damages to a young woman whose
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mental health was seriously harmed by her use
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of Instagram and YouTube starting at age 6.
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It was the first verdict of its kind
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in the United States, and it opens the
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door to thousands of similar cases still pending
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across the country.
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Matthew has spent the last four years building
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the legal case that made this moment possible.
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And today, we are going to talk about
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what happened, why it matters, and what it
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means for young people and families that clinicians
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work with every day.
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As always, before we talk to our guests,
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we would like to bring up some relevant
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articles related to our topic today.
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These may be helpful for listeners who want
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to learn more and dive deeper.
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As usual, they will be linked in our
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show notes.
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And the first article is from NPR.
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It's called Research Points to How Companies Could
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Make Social Media Less Addictive for Teens.
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This is from March of 2026, and it
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was published just days after the verdict.
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And it looks at the research what it
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actually shows about how social media platforms are
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designed to keep young people hooked.
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It covers the science behind compulsive use and
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documents the mental health consequences, including higher rates
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of depression, suicidal behavior, and sleep disruption in
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kids who develop addictive patterns of use.
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It also looks at what design changes companies
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could realistically make to reduce harm, which gets
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at the heart of what the KGM case
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was about.
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The second article from NBC News is titled
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Jury Finds Meta and YouTube Negligent in Landmark
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Lawsuit on Social Media Safety from March 2026.
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And this is the main news report on
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the KGM verdict.
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The jury found both meta and YouTube negligent
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in the design of their platforms and ruled
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that this negligence was a substantial factor in
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harming the plaintiff's mental health.
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The six million award included punitive damages, meaning
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the jury found the companies acted with reckless
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disregard.
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It also includes Matthew's statement on what the
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verdict means for thousands of other cases still
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working their way through the courts across the
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country.
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And lastly, the article we'd like to talk
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about is called Social Media Victims Law Center.
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It's from the Social Media Victims Law Center
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Social Media Addiction Lawsuit Update.
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And this is talking about the case again
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and includes Matthew's full statement after the verdict
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and lays out in plain language the legal
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theory his firm has built over the past
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four years that social media companies should be
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held accountable not for what people post but
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for how the platform themselves were designed to
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maximize engagement at the expense of user safety.
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It's a useful primer to take a look
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at before hearing from him directly.
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All of these pieces point to the same
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fundamental question.
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When a company builds a product, it knows
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can harm children and profits from it anyway.
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Who is responsible?
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Matthew has spent the last four years making
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the case in courtrooms that the answer is
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the company.
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So, Matthew, thank you so much for being
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here.
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It's a pleasure to be here.
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I'd love to hear a little bit about
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you and how you got interested in this
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work specifically.
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What led you here?
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I have been a product liability lawyer for
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the last 30 years, primarily representing asbestos victims.
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And I learned a lot from that representation,
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from that experience.
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I had a lot of success and I
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also had a lot of defeats and learned
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equally from both and was interested in approaching
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something that was more that would really change
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the world.
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It would not simply provide redress for past
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wrongs but actually do something proactive.
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That coincided with the Francis Haugen revelations on
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social media and what the platforms know their
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products are doing to kids.
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I coincided with the Surgeon General's first report
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on the youth mental health crisis.
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And finally, we saw a little glimmer of
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hope in a Ninth Circuit opinion that suggested
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that perhaps we could use product liability as
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a way to bring these cases forward.
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Up until, and this was in October of
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2021, virtually every attempt to hold social media
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companies accountable legally was dismissed out of hand
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under Section 230.
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And some of the most egregious situations like
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back page promoting child prostitution was held to
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be immune from any liability, sale of drugs,
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violence and bullying and things like that.
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So there was really no way to move
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forward against these companies.
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We decided to apply our experience as product
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liability lawyers and take a different approach and
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that's how we started.
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Awesome.
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Thanks for that.
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And can you explain a little bit about
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what the Social Media Victims Law Center does?
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Yeah, we represent mostly parents of children who
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are injured.
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They were either through a severe mental health
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injury, a suicide, children that have been sexually
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abused and children that have attempted to take
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their lives.
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And we represent them in product liability actions
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in states and federal courts around the country.
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We have approximately 2,000 families that we
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are currently representing.
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That's a big number.
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Yeah.
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Well, there are a lot of, unfortunately, that's
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true because the impacts of social media on
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young people in particularly have been cataclysmic.
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Yeah, they certainly have.
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You mentioned this Section 230 as a near
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impenetrable legal shield for tech companies.
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Can you explain more about that and how
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that came to be?
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Yeah, Section 230 was enacted in 1996 with
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the express purpose of protecting kids and providing
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a very kind of narrow window of immunity
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for social media companies.
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There wasn't social media back then, but for
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internet companies because they wanted to grow the
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internet.
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And essentially, it provided that a internet service
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provider, back then they were called bulletin boards,
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can't be held liable if somebody posts defamatory
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material on the platform, which seemed like a
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fairly reasonable step at the time.
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This was at a time when Netscape was
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the largest browser.
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Social media didn't exist.
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There was no Google.
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And it was really thought that no one
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envisioned that this statute would be interpreted so
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broadly by courts well beyond the language or
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the congressional intent and essentially provide carte blanche
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immunity to social media companies for just about
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anything they did.
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And to be clear, this was immunity that
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no other company has.
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Every other company in America has a duty
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of reasonable care.
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The social media companies did not.
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So in the absence of any legal liability,
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they were unconstrained to design social media apps
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for the sole intention of maximizing engagement and
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resulting advertising revenue by deliberately designing them to
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be addictive.
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Yeah.
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And I think that's certainly been exposed at
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this point.
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But it sounds like this has been the
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law that has been difficult to get any
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kind of legal action around.
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That's very true.
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I mean, as I said, some of the
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most egregious situations involving children that were sexually
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abused by predators that were connected to them
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on social media or victims of terrorism were
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held to have no rights whatsoever against social
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media companies, even when the companies knew that
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the material that was being posted was so
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dangerous.
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So we adopted a different approach.
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We said, OK, well, you can't sue them
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for bad content moderation, but you can sue
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them for negligent design and product liability.
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So it's not the content that is hosted.
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It's the design that is designed to be
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addictive.
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It doesn't matter what content is shown to
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a kid.
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The algorithm picks whatever content is most likely
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to trigger a dopamine response in that child's
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adolescent cortex.
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And it doesn't matter what it is.
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Now, we know from the standpoint of neurology
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and psychology that material that is discordant psychologically,
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shocking, disturbing, triggers a greater dopamine response than
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material that is benign or uplifting.
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And so the algorithm selects material to show
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kids not what they want to see, but
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what they can't look away from.
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And the platforms also utilize gamification and other
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techniques to exploit adolescents' need for social acclimation
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with features like the likes and the streaks
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and the hearts and these features that just
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become so benevolent in spurring this addictive relationship
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with social media that kids have.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So can you walk us through the KGM
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case a little bit about who this young
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woman is and what happened to her and
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why this was the right case to take
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to trial?
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KGM is a, now she's a 20-year
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-old young woman from Northern California.
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She got on social media when she was
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nine years old and developed an addictive relationship
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with social media that manifested in body dysmorphia
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and mental health harms.
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The case was picked by the court as
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representative.
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It was not the worst outcome that we
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have.
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Thank God Kaylee's still with us and, you
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know, hanging in there.
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But it was specifically picked by the court
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with the idea that it be representative of
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so many others.
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So, you know, Kaylee could have been any
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of our daughters or any of our nieces.
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And the trial proceeded against YouTube and Meta
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under the, you know, the entire defense was
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basically blame the victim and blame her mom.
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And, you know, the fact that Kaylee's parents
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separated when she was very young, that she
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had a difficult upbringing.
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She had some mental health challenges.
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All of these were used as alternative causes
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by the companies to blame the victim, blame
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the mom.
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And it didn't work because we were able
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to, for the first time, make public exhibits
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and internal documents that show that the companies
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know not only that their platforms are addictive,
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not only that they have adverse mental health
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consequences on adolescents, but that kids like Kaylee,
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particularly with kids who are more vulnerable, more
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infirm, are more likely to develop addictive and
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mental health harms from social media than kids
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from a more, a less challenged upbringing.
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So that enabled Mark Lanier, who tried the
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case so brilliantly, to be able to argue
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in closing that just like the cheetah that
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preys on the sick and the weak gazelles,
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these social media companies prey on vulnerable kids
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and they do.
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I mean, that just, that's, it's heavy.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, it does.
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And, and it, and, you know, it's not
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surprising, you know, we, in the law, we
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have a concept of, you know, it's called
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the thin-skulled plaintiff or the eggshell plaintiff.
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You know, that if somebody is vulnerable, it
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doesn't mean that a person has a lower
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duty of care.
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If somebody drives drunk and plows into a
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individual who's a hemophiliac and that person bleeds
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to death, the person is no less responsible
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than if the person, you know, had, had
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not been a hemophiliac and it just, you
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know, rip open their, their femur.
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And, you know, we know that, you know,
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vulnerable people, vulnerable kids are always the most
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likely to be hurt.
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You know, most sex abuse victims are vulnerable
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kids.
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The incidence of sickness and disease among people
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of low SES is higher.
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And so this is not a surprise and
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it's not an excuse.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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I think, I mean, that sat heavy with
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me that the victim blaming was not ultimately
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upheld, right?
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Because we have a long history of that.
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We do.
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We do.
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And, you know, somebody is sexually abused and,
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you know, it's her fault because she provoked
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the person.
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She should have worn a short dress or
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some other obnoxious argument.
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You know, they say, well, you know, most
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kids on social media don't have adverse mental
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health harms.
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That's probably true.
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You know, if, if a airplane only crashes
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one flight out of a thousand, it's a
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dangerous airplane.
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If a car, if car brakes don't only,
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you know, don't, you know, seize up one
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time out of a hundred, there's a recall
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of the car.
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The test on, you know, whether the majority
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of kids on social media are not suffering,
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you know, severe mental health harms is not
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the appropriate test.
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The test is, is it reasonably safe?
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And is the, the risk of harm outweighed
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by the utility that the platform provides?
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That's a basic principle of product liability.
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So, you know, if you, you know, I
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always think, you know, if you had a
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cancer drug that, you know, that you'd give
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to people who were terminally ill and, you
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know, in five cases, 50% of the
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people got better, you know, 40% of
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the people stayed the same and one, 10
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% of people got worse.
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On a risk utility test, we might very
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well decide from a societal benefit that the,
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that the, that the, that the benefit of
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a medication that can, you know, save five
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people justifies that risk because the benefit is
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so high.
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With respect to social media, I think we
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all have to ask, what's the real benefit
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here?
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I mean, why is that, you know, why,
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you know, I mean, sure, there's some good
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things that can happen with social media, but
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is it really that essential, that beneficial to
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young people that we're willing to accept, you
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know, the carnage that is being inflicted on
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them as, as a cost of doing business?
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And, you know, I would say no.
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Well, and I think about, you know, as
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a clinician, it's clear, I think, to all
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of us that we see higher rates of
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depression, anxiety, suicidality, all of that in kids
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and teens than ever before.
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Like it just, you know, and that is
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a, an introduction of social media has been
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a piece of that for sure.
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And a new thing that being a kid,
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I know sometimes I say, I'm really glad
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I didn't have to navigate that at a
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young age, you know.
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Me too.
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Yeah.
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You know, you're absolutely right.
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I mean, the mental health crisis started among
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young people, started in 2012.
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That's when the front-facing cell phone came
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out.
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Yeah.
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And significantly, there was a lot of bad
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stuff on the internet that kids could get
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into prior to 2012.
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It just wasn't being fed to them algorithmically.
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And, you know, so, you know, we hear
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from our friends on the other side, you
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know, well, it's correlation is not causation.
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You know, that's, that's all well and good.
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But every reputable research study that has come
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out since then has established a very strong
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cause and effect relationship between social media and
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this youth mental health crisis.
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And the research is now establishing not only
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is a social media addiction behavioral, but it
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has pronounced neurologic components in that brain development
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among adolescents varies based upon frequency of social
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media use.
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So it is really much more an addiction
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like nicotine than we had previously thought.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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You have described this verdict as a watershed
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moment.
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And I'm curious for people who are seeking
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care, for clinicians, people who work with the
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teen mental health crisis, what is this verdict
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change in practical terms?
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What does it allow?
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It's the beginning.
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You know, I mean, I'd paraphrase Winston Churchill.
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It's, you know, it's not the beginning.
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It's not the end.
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It's not the beginning of the end.
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Maybe it's the end of the beginning.
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It is, I think, the beginning of a
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new dialogue, kind of recognizing, hopefully, that it
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is now irrefutable that social media has a
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pernicious impact on kids.
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I think we're seeing among clinicians, you know,
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simply more and more focus on social media.
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You know, when we started doing this work,
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there were, you know, a lot of treaters
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were not asking about social media.
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A kid would come in with, you know,
19:00
a mental health outcome, and it just wasn't
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on the list of things to ask.
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And, you know, that was an issue in
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the KGM trial, even.
19:08
The treater hadn't charted it, and they called
19:11
the treater back, and the treater said, of
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course I knew it was social media.
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You know, and so it was, you know,
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kind of an impactful moment.
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But I think, you know, treaters need to
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always ask about it, always inquire about it,
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frequency of social media use, what platforms are
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being used.
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And, you know, particularly, you know, and now
19:30
with respect to AI, but, you know, when
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everyone sees, you know, anxiety, depression, eating disorder,
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suicidality, I think a very important question to
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ask early on is social media.
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The extent to which social media platforms actively
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promote suicide is appalling.
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And the addictive relationship that kids have with
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social media, I think from a treater standpoint,
19:56
is highly problematic.
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Because, you know, kids are spending seven hours
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a day online, that's time they're not exercising,
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hanging out with their friends, talking on the
20:06
phone, going for a walk, doing their homework,
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watching TV.
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You know, I mean, you know, we used
20:11
to think watching TV was so bad for
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us, right?
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And so, you know, we really, you know,
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I think it really needs to be front
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and center of what anybody treating adolescents is
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aware of.
20:24
I love that.
20:25
I love that.
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One of our treaters is a specialist in
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adolescent medicine.
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And she says, yeah, we call it TikTok
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Instagram anorexia.
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That's what we call it in the office
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among the practitioners.
20:39
So, yeah, yeah.
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That's a very inspirational thought.
20:42
And I think a good thing for anyone
20:44
in this industry to be thinking about.
20:46
We are just about out of time.
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And so with this case, with the work
20:51
that you do, I'm curious for our listeners,
20:54
is there any last maybe word of wisdom,
20:58
thoughts that you'd like to share with the
21:00
audience before we sign off for the day?
21:04
Simply be afraid and be very afraid of
21:07
what kids are encountering online.
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Recognize that not because they're bad kids, but
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because they're kids, they're not going to tell
21:15
parents or everything that they're encountering online.
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I don't think that, you know, there's kind
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of contrary strategies.
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One, you know, you want parents and treaters
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need to be an open book so that
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they can, their kids feel comfortable talking about
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unpleasant, un-difficult, embarrassing things that are happening
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online.
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On the other hand, I don't think that
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parents and treaters can trust these platforms that
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are explicitly designed to thwart parental authority to
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protect their kids, and that can't really trust
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that their kids are going to share with
21:49
them the full extent of what they're confronting
21:51
online.
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I agree.
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Thank you for that.
21:54
Thank you for the work that you're doing.
21:56
Thank you for finding a workaround.
21:58
And I look forward to seeing how this
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impacts not just the mental health industry, but
22:04
our society, and maybe some of these companies
22:07
having to take a little more accountability for
22:10
what's happening.
22:11
So I really appreciate you coming on today.
22:14
I'm happy to be part of your program
22:17
and look forward to talking some point in
22:19
the future.
22:20
Sounds good.
22:21
For our listeners, if you want more information
22:23
or to dig in, we'll have all the
22:25
articles and information about this law firm in
22:30
our show notes.
22:31
And we will be back next week to
22:33
talk about more about the changing landscape in
22:36
the mental health field on the Mental Health
22:39
Evolution podcast.
22:40
Thanks for being here.
22:42
Thanks for listening to the Mental Health Evolution
22:44
podcast.
22:45
Join the conversation, find us on socials, send
22:48
us your thoughts, and tell us what you're
22:50
seeing in your corner of the mental health
22:52
world.
22:53
Until next time, stay curious and keep evolving.