Latest / The Scene Projects / Jay 'PodVader' Soderberg on Podcast Evolution, Community Building, and Monetization Strategies

Transcript

Jay 'PodVader' Soderberg on Podcast Evolution, Community Building, and Monetization Strategies · The Scene Projects

• 0:22
  Welcome in to Real Biz.
• 0:24
  I am your host Bubba Starts, and with me today, a podcast OG and a man that needs no
• 0:30
  introduction, Jay Podvader Soderbergh.
• 0:33
  Jay, welcome to the show.
• 0:34
  Thanks, Bubba.
• 0:35
  Glad to be here.
• 0:36
  Yeah.
• 0:37
  I, you know, I don't do the lengthy introductions.
• 0:41
  I I just, at this point, we are two men in this podcasting space that is on shifting sands and
• 0:48
  someone who's been around the industry as long as you have, knows more than I would say
• 0:53
  probably anyone out there what that means.
• 0:56
  Before we get into the conversations, of how the, you know, podcasting world is changing and
• 1:01
  changes that are happening in your world, I just wanna give you an opportunity to kinda
• 1:05
  give us a little bit of your backstory, and then we'll pick it up from there.
• 1:09
  Yeah.
• 1:10
  I mean, it was so long ago, that I that I got my start here in podcasting, literally day one
• 1:17
  of podcasting pretty much.
• 1:20
  I was pulled into an office at ESPN where I'd been working in radio for at least eight years
• 1:26
  at that point and was told, we need to start doing this thing called podcasting.
• 1:31
  I said, what's a podcast?
• 1:33
  And they said, we don't know either, but you're gonna find out.
• 1:36
  And sure enough, I did.
• 1:39
  During the course of that, putting my fingerprints on over 27 original podcasts
• 1:45
  either directly or indirectly at ESPN creating their whole platform before I left to become
• 1:53
  the head of content at Blog Talk Radio and work with this thing called dynamic ad insertion,
• 1:59
  which at the time, nobody wanted it.
• 2:02
  They hated it.
• 2:03
  Podcasters, especially the indie podcasters, especially hated it.
• 2:08
  They're like, what?
• 2:08
  I don't want those ads.
• 2:11
  Not realizing that it was pretty much the only way from advertising that they were going to
• 2:15
  make ads based on the size of their shows.
• 2:18
  And for the bigger shows, the corporate podcasters, as I like to call them, it was a
• 2:23
  great way to benefit from that huge back catalog that you had.
• 2:27
  And so selling that in the very early days of dynamic ad insertion and blazing that path was
• 2:33
  a lot of fun.
• 2:35
  And then Spreaker took over the company and blew out all the old BlogTalk Radio people.
• 2:42
  I ended up doing some consulting.
• 2:44
  I worked a little bit back in sports with the Locked On network.
• 2:48
  Unfortunately, COVID came around and changed the world, and that blew up, my world a little
• 2:55
  bit.
• 2:55
  And then ended up at the Cumulus Podcast Network and worked there for the last five
• 2:59
  years helping drive their strategy and evolving with the medium, getting involved more in
• 3:06
  video, and learning everything there is to know about video and also learning what you need to
• 3:14
  know about video to be successful in podcasting.
• 3:18
  Because audio to me is still prime, in this medium, and it is still king in this medium, in
• 3:25
  my opinion.
• 3:27
  And for those that continue to chase after that video, that shiny object, be careful what you
• 3:33
  wish for because, when the advertisers start understanding the consumption of podcasting
• 3:40
  video versus the consumption of podcasting audio, the ad dollars will switch back to where
• 3:47
  they belong.
• 3:49
  Yeah.
• 3:50
  And I think we're seeing a massive shift in that.
• 3:52
  Obviously, YouTube is going through some big changes in what they consider a view any longer
• 3:57
  on content, and I think that speaks a bit to, things that you're saying that these
• 4:03
  advertisers are not seeing the ROI that, these companies are charging an exorbitant amount for
• 4:10
  as they're looking to cut cost.
• 4:12
  And I think there was a a balloon, right, during COVID.
• 4:15
  Podcasts, I think, became even more popular, than they were.
• 4:19
  People were consuming more, right, working less, and and looking for other things to do.
• 4:24
  And we're kind of back on the backside of that now.
• 4:27
  Right?
• 4:28
  That that that wave has crested, and now we're kind of figuring it all out again.
• 4:33
  And while I do everything is video, I record everything on video, we are still very
• 4:38
  conscious of our audio only listeners.
• 4:41
  And and in many ways, our audio listeners are our biggest fan base.
• 4:45
  So we wanna make sure that, yes, we are using video for the purpose of it and getting the
• 4:50
  value of that, but in no way only creating for video.
• 4:55
  It has to be consumable on an audio level.
• 4:58
  And I think that really speaks to just the the conversations.
• 5:02
  I think that's what podcasts have always been, an opportunity to just sit down.
• 5:06
  And and to me, I grew up listening to, you know, talk radio with with my, grandfather.
• 5:13
  It was always AM radio in his truck when we were cruising around, and it was just
• 5:17
  conversations there.
• 5:18
  And, being a huge sports fan as well and consuming a lot of sports radio, that's always
• 5:24
  how I've approached my own podcast is it has to be consumable on an audio format and not just
• 5:31
  sharing video clips and dying on that hill.
• 5:34
  No.
• 5:35
  And I think the best compliment I ever received for podcasts that I was working on was a
• 5:40
  gentleman who was listening to one of our recordings of the Fantasy Focus podcast back in
• 5:46
  the day.
• 5:47
  And when we were done, he said, look.
• 5:49
  I'm not into fantasy football at all.
• 5:52
  I'm not into sports at all, but I can sit and listen to this show five days a week twenty
• 5:58
  four seven.
• 6:00
  So, I mean, I was like, hey.
• 6:02
  That's fantastic.
• 6:03
  Because that's the whole point of podcasting.
• 6:06
  It's the conversation that makes you feel like you're a part of it even though you're not.
• 6:10
  You're literally the guy at the bar eavesdropping in on that super interesting
• 6:16
  conversation that's happening right next to you.
• 6:20
  And that's and that's the kind of feeling that you're not gonna get from video.
• 6:24
  From video, I've gotta make sure that I keep staring at this camera, which I don't do
• 6:29
  because I'm an audio guy.
• 6:31
  I grew up in audio.
• 6:32
  I can't remember to keep staring at the video so that I'm talking to you who's watching right
• 6:37
  now.
• 6:37
  Now, again, I've been involved in this medium for over twenty years now.
• 6:42
  I understand the evolution of the medium.
• 6:46
  I understand the value of video.
• 6:48
  I understand the opportunity that sits here for podcasting as more and more people are getting
• 6:54
  smart televisions, and they're getting apps like Roku and Tubi.
• 7:00
  And there's a place that this content can live on on the television as well, and television
• 7:07
  requires moving pictures.
• 7:09
  People want to see some sort of movement, which is why I'm gonna start using my hands here so I
• 7:15
  can, provide some movement.
• 7:17
  But at the end of the day, when it comes to a podcast, what are we doing most of the times
• 7:22
  when we're listening to a podcast?
• 7:23
  We're driving.
• 7:25
  We're doing chores.
• 7:27
  It's an experience that we can do multiple things at the same time.
• 7:32
  I can't watch a podcast while I'm driving to work.
• 7:37
  I can't watch a podcast while I'm taking the kids to the soccer game.
• 7:42
  I can't watch a podcast while I'm supposed to be watching my kids playing in that sport out
• 7:48
  there on the field.
• 7:49
  I can listen to one, though, while I'm watching the game, and I can do both things at the same
• 7:54
  time listening.
• 7:56
  And I think that's a super important point.
• 7:59
  On top of that, I've seen the consumption stats.
• 8:02
  I know.
• 8:03
  And that's the little that's the little secret that nobody is talking about right now.
• 8:08
  The consumption of video is not the same as the consumption of audio for podcasting at all.
• 8:15
  I've seen it.
• 8:16
  I know it.
• 8:16
  It's inverse as a matter of fact.
• 8:18
  Industry standard for completion percentage on audio is 75.
• 8:24
  Industry standard for video completion is 20%.
• 8:28
  YouTube has come out and said publicly, 20% is good on their platform.
• 8:34
  We would freak out if we only had 20% completion on the audio side.
• 8:39
  So these are the things that I hoping people start to understand.
• 8:45
  And the whole point about the view, like, what's a view, what's an engaged view, it's
• 8:49
  completely irrelevant.
• 8:50
  The view is the worst, most nonsensical metric in all of data.
• 8:55
  It doesn't correlate with any other metric that YouTube gives you, and YouTube gives you a
• 9:00
  phenomenal amount of data of your viewers on their platform.
• 9:05
  They give you new viewers.
• 9:06
  They give you returning viewers.
• 9:08
  The one number that you want to keep attention to when it comes to your audience are the
• 9:13
  uniques.
• 9:15
  Ignore the view.
• 9:16
  It's a worthless metric.
• 9:18
  Engaged views, probably just as worthless.
• 9:21
  The only thing that you can tell by a large view number is that you have a large audience.
• 9:27
  That's it.
• 9:28
  But the actual audience that you wanna be looking at are your uniques and your returning
• 9:32
  viewers because those that is the core of your audience.
• 9:37
  New users, you're hoping that you're working that algorithm to start working for you, and
• 9:42
  there's ways that you can work the algorithm to increase those, and there's metrics to look at
• 9:46
  to see if it's working.
• 9:49
  Yeah.
• 9:49
  Yeah.
• 9:50
  I think the the focus is first that you have to have good content.
• 9:53
  Right?
• 9:54
  You you have to be a good personality and someone that, people would want to listen to or
• 9:59
  to watch, you know, regardless of the of the medium that you're on.
• 10:04
  You have to be likable, I think, as a start.
• 10:07
  And then beyond that, can you be interesting, or can you have interesting guests and have
• 10:12
  interesting conversations to keep them coming back?
• 10:15
  I I didn't divest a lot of time in in building my platform over the last few years and now
• 10:21
  several platforms underneath the scene projects banner by chasing views and by chasing the
• 10:27
  algorithm.
• 10:27
  Is there more that we could do to, you know, invest into learning and not necessarily gaming
• 10:34
  the algorithm, but with our content, making sure that we are feeding and continuing to feed
• 10:40
  that beast in the way that it wants to be fed.
• 10:43
  Right?
• 10:43
  I'm not throwing a carrot to a bear.
• 10:45
  But we are I I was always really focused on community, and I think that's something that
• 10:51
  you're speaking to with the metrics that you're measuring, those unique and returning viewers
• 10:56
  and visitors to you you know, either it's your YouTube channel or your podcast downloads or
• 11:01
  whatever it may be, that that's the community that you are driving.
• 11:05
  Those are the people that are going to support you.
• 11:07
  And outside of just being monetized, which is a moving goalpost anyway, these are people that
• 11:13
  would be valuable to advertisers outside of a dynamic ad insertion.
• 11:18
  Right?
• 11:18
  To allow you to say, hey.
• 11:20
  We have 300 people, and it may be even a small number, but they tune in every single week.
• 11:26
  They come back, consume our content, and that that can be valuable to a myriad of businesses
• 11:32
  if you have the wherewithal and a little bit of sales drive and know how to get out there and
• 11:37
  to provide that value to any number of advertisers, not just the big five, you know,
• 11:43
  that are out there, you know, on on every podcast that would seem.
• 11:47
  Well, this is this goes back to the whole the riches are in the niches.
• 11:50
  Right?
• 11:50
  So 300 football watchers is not necessarily valuable to an advertiser.
• 11:57
  Right?
• 11:57
  Because millions of people are watching football, and millions of people are doing
• 12:01
  podcasts on football.
• 12:03
  But 300 yacht owners is super valuable because there aren't a lot of yacht owners, and the
• 12:10
  ones that they do own yachts usually have big pockets.
• 12:14
  And those are the people that the advertisers obviously want to get to.
• 12:18
  So understanding what your core audience is, understanding who this podcast is for, all
• 12:26
  helps in terms of how do you end up selling it to a potential advertiser at the end of the day
• 12:33
  to help make your business work and understanding what it's going to take to help
• 12:38
  that advertiser spend their money with you.
• 12:42
  I think one thing that a lot of podcasters I've spoken to over the years get wrong is they
• 12:48
  think when they sign up an agreement with a podcast network, for instance, they're getting
• 12:52
  paid to podcast.
• 12:54
  No.
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  No.
• 12:55
  No.
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  No.
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  You're not getting paid to podcast.
• 12:57
  You're getting paid because there's an advertiser that believes your podcast can make
• 13:02
  them money by selling their product.
• 13:05
  So if you don't sell their product to your audience, you will no longer be making any
• 13:11
  money, which is why these ginormous contracts that end up getting signed by some of the
• 13:17
  bigger podcasters are quite fascinating.
• 13:21
  I read an article not not only a couple weeks ago by, Steve Raises on LinkedIn who mentioned
• 13:27
  that a lot of these contracts are being signed knowing that they're not going to make that
• 13:31
  money back.
• 13:32
  But there are reasons, strategic reasons why these contracts are being sold.
• 13:38
  One, so that you understand that you are a player in this party known as podcasting so you
• 13:45
  can attract more podcasters.
• 13:47
  And the more podcasters that you bring in, the more likely is you're going to make up that
• 13:52
  revenue that you're going to lose on that one big contract with the other podcasts that are
• 13:57
  part of your network.
• 13:59
  And two is exactly that, bringing in more podcasters into the network.
• 14:05
  Because, ultimately, if I've sold, you know, Joe Rogan for, you know, however much money it
• 14:12
  was, $500,000,000 or whatever the number happens to be.
• 14:16
  I know I'm not gonna make that back in advertising.
• 14:19
  However, if I have Joe Rogan on my network, I can tell people I have Joe Rogan on my network,
• 14:24
  and you probably want to be part of the Joe Rogan network.
• 14:28
  That's where I'm going to end up making back all of that money.
• 14:32
  And by signing those podcasters to lesser deals or perhaps not even signing them to a a minimum
• 14:38
  guarantee deal, maybe I convince them that the revenue share is enough for them.
• 14:45
  You know, we're gonna make you x amount of dollars no matter what.
• 14:48
  So if you just take this on a rolling monthly basis, we're gonna be in good shape.
• 14:55
  Both of us are gonna make money.
• 14:58
  And I think that's the part that ends up getting missed in the conversations with some
• 15:03
  of these podcasters out there.
• 15:05
  Yeah.
• 15:05
  They they don't understand.
• 15:07
  In the business world, you would call a Joe Rogan deal a loss leader.
• 15:10
  You know that the ROI is not going to be there on that deal specifically, but it has a
• 15:15
  different function.
• 15:17
  Right?
• 15:17
  It's never going to make up a $500,000,000 in ad revenue on its own, but it's going to build
• 15:23
  that brand authority, you know, and for a Spotify, when they were first getting into
• 15:28
  podcasting, a great move on their part because Joe I mean, not only does he have a large fan
• 15:32
  base, but he is the ear of a lot of people around him that have their own podcast as well.
• 15:37
  Right?
• 15:37
  It's not just signing Joe.
• 15:39
  It's like, hey.
• 15:40
  Can you get Theo and and everybody else in your circle, Bert, and everybody to bring their
• 15:45
  stuff over here as well.
• 15:47
  And maybe there's some, like you said, some lesser exclusive deals that they're able to
• 15:51
  work or just having them in that circle.
• 15:54
  I think it's important.
• 15:55
  Now, Jay, you came from the world of radio and how I've always looked at my podcast and what
• 16:01
  we do is is some more similar to how a radio or TV network maybe runs without the overhead of
• 16:08
  the broadcast, you know, a 100,000 watt tower or, you know, a a a TV satellite to broadcast
• 16:15
  that onto.
• 16:15
  But I've always brought that mentality to where I'll go find the advertisers on my own space.
• 16:20
  And and and a lot of what you're kind of addressing here and I think from the
• 16:24
  independent side, what a lot more independent podcasters can do is you're not trying to chase
• 16:29
  a single check from a a big podcast network.
• 16:32
  You're it's learning how to cash maybe smaller checks and to treat yourself as someone who is
• 16:38
  capable of selling the product and aligning yourself with brands out there that makes sense
• 16:44
  for you.
• 16:45
  How is it the same in podcasting and how you look at it compared to your days in radio?
• 16:53
  This well, the similarities mainly lie in the in the content.
• 16:56
  Right?
• 16:57
  Ultimately, back in the day in radio, when radio was awesome I'll just throw that little
• 17:03
  shot out there.
• 17:05
  When radio was awesome, it was all about the community.
• 17:08
  Right?
• 17:08
  Everybody listened.
• 17:10
  Everybody tuned in to that DJ, to that show because it was a moment that you had to tune
• 17:16
  in.
• 17:16
  You had to listen because you didn't want to miss what was next.
• 17:21
  You sat in your car when you got to your destination the middle of a bit or in the
• 17:26
  middle of an interview because you couldn't miss what was next.
• 17:30
  And with radio, once it went out there, it was out there and it was gone forever.
• 17:35
  You didn't ever got to hear it ever again.
• 17:37
  With podcasting, the difference is that everything on the Internet lives forever.
• 17:41
  So you can always go back and get it and listen to it however you want, whenever you want.
• 17:46
  I think the other part about podcasting that's slightly different than radio and is a super
• 17:51
  advantage for podcasting.
• 17:53
  And this is what we've told people back in those early days is don't damn one of your
• 17:58
  tributaries.
• 18:00
  Create a revenue river that is fed by numerous revenue opportunities.
• 18:06
  Don't just accept programmatic digital ad insertion.
• 18:11
  Don't just accept host spread ad placements in your podcast.
• 18:16
  Create a subscription network for those returning viewers and for those p ones that you
• 18:23
  have on your podcast.
• 18:24
  Create merchandise that you can, benefit from.
• 18:28
  There's plenty of different opportunities out there where you can create merchandise at
• 18:35
  you're you're not gonna make a ton of money off of it.
• 18:38
  You're gonna take less of a percentage off of what gets sold, but you don't have to worry
• 18:43
  about building an inventory that's gonna sit and rot in a warehouse somewhere.
• 18:48
  You can sell it on demand just like your podcast is on demand.
• 18:52
  Once you get to a certain number of people that are demanding more and more merchandise, then
• 18:57
  you can worry about how do I make how do I do create a warehouse worth of merchandise that's
• 19:02
  rotting away somewhere?
• 19:06
  All of these things are super important to an independent podcaster, because you probably
• 19:12
  aren't going to be of the size where advertising is gonna be the sole thing that's
• 19:16
  gonna bring in most of your revenue.
• 19:18
  You might find that you're gonna be more popular on a subscription basis with people
• 19:23
  that are gonna donate to you.
• 19:25
  I'm a huge fan of Adam Curry.
• 19:27
  When I was learning what a podcast was way back in the day, it was Adam Curry and Leo Laporte.
• 19:33
  Those were the two people that I was listening to the most about how to create a podcast, what
• 19:38
  a podcast was.
• 19:39
  And Adam Curry has always pushed the value for value model, which is it's not it's not
• 19:46
  donations.
• 19:47
  It's not, it's not a subscription.
• 19:50
  It's a if you're listening to this show and you have a certain value in mind of what this show
• 19:56
  is worth to you, well, then please send in that amount.
• 20:01
  And if you feel like the value is zero, then you're not going to send anything.
• 20:05
  And then I'm not going to continue creating this content because you valued it at zero.
• 20:11
  Ultimately, the value that you are producing will come back to you from your audience, and
• 20:17
  your audience is going to tell you how valuable that content is.
• 20:22
  It can be a scary proposition for somebody who's just starting off, and their name isn't
• 20:27
  Adam Curry.
• 20:29
  But at the end of the day, you're going to know, can I do this as a profit, or can I do
• 20:35
  this as a hobby?
• 20:37
  And that's what the independent podcaster has to realize is you might come to a point where
• 20:43
  the podcast really is only for you, because you just get so much enjoyment from doing it.
• 20:49
  You have to do it, versus I need this to be my life source.
• 20:55
  I need this to put food on the table.
• 20:57
  I need this to pay the bills.
• 20:59
  If that's the case, if that's the kind of thing that you need, then you need to change your
• 21:05
  mindset and create content that is going to become more sellable and more sellable to an
• 21:12
  advertiser.
• 21:14
  Yeah.
• 21:14
  And I dove into this, not exactly in the very beginning knowing that it needed to be, putting
• 21:21
  food on the table.
• 21:23
  But within six months where it was like, okay.
• 21:25
  I enjoy this enough that I could do this the rest of my life.
• 21:29
  And and and there was that this crack, right, that that we've kinda been in over the last
• 21:33
  two, three years where it's very obvious that the media landscape has changed.
• 21:38
  People are not consuming it, really, you know, from just satellite or from, you know, cable
• 21:43
  TV, and we no longer have just three big networks.
• 21:46
  Everyone is streaming fast and Roku and and all the things are happening that if you can find
• 21:52
  where you fit in and and and treat your podcast as a business or your multiple podcasts like we
• 21:59
  have here as a business, that there will be a maybe not millions of dollars like some people
• 22:05
  are out there making, but you can, make a a decent living and survive yourself and do
• 22:11
  something that is incredibly rewarding to you.
• 22:14
  And that was really the allure to me, to be able to I love having conversations.
• 22:18
  I love meeting new people.
• 22:20
  This gives me the opportunity to do it from my home in the small town in South Dakota that I
• 22:25
  live in and to connect with all kinds of people.
• 22:27
  I've interviewed rock and roll hall of famers, NFL, you know, former NFL guys.
• 22:32
  We get a chance to work alongside, you know, the Minnesota Vikings with some of our coverage
• 22:38
  that we're doing and to interview some some of the most amazing people on the planet that
• 22:42
  without a podcast, I would have never had those opportunities.
• 22:45
  This conversation today, Jay, doesn't happen unless I dive all into it and am just really
• 22:52
  focused on getting better at the craft.
• 22:55
  And that also means the business side of that.
• 22:58
  We're very fortunate to have some advertisers on a few of our programs.
• 23:02
  We're not yet big enough, and now that that goalpost has moved on the monetization side to
• 23:07
  be garnering large checks from, you know, dynamic ad insertion and a lot of these things.
• 23:12
  So it it was how is it going to make money?
• 23:14
  Whether that's on the content production side and working more as a promotional piece for
• 23:19
  businesses out there, or it's, you know, why we dipped heavily into sports because people are
• 23:24
  consuming sports content and people are passionate about sports teams.
• 23:29
  Okay.
• 23:29
  Well, we'll start a a show about the team that you like, and we'll put your name all over it.
• 23:34
  I I don't necessarily care too much myself about what I'm talking about as long as I'm
• 23:39
  talking and there's a check at the end of it.
• 23:42
  It all goes back to that why.
• 23:44
  As long as you understand what the why is, then you're going to create the perfect piece of
• 23:50
  content every single time.
• 23:52
  And if you don't understand what your why is, you're not.
• 23:56
  You're not going to connect.
• 23:57
  You're not gonna make those goals because you're you don't have a mission statement
• 24:01
  that's guiding you towards what that goal is.
• 24:05
  So if you don't know what your why is, you should not be podcasting.
• 24:09
  If you do know what your why is, you can create strategies as to how do you get to the answer
• 24:16
  to your why.
• 24:17
  And that's how you're gonna end up building a successful podcast.
• 24:20
  It sounds like, Bubba, you've you've done exactly that, and you're on the right path.
• 24:25
  Well, I appreciate you saying so.
• 24:27
  It's taken a lot of spaghetti on the wall to find that path, though.
• 24:30
  We we've we've developed probably over 15 podcasts in the last two years, and some shows
• 24:36
  have had different iterations of of what they are.
• 24:39
  And and I was never worried about and I think a lot of people and a lot of podcasters early on
• 24:46
  either get a little I I don't wanna say even burnt out, but discouraged that they're not
• 24:52
  getting the viewership and they're not things aren't taking off.
• 24:55
  This is a long game that you are getting into and playing unless you are already someone
• 25:00
  extremely famous and people are paying attention to you, it's gonna be very hard to
• 25:04
  build that community around you.
• 25:06
  I was fortunate enough because of my involvement in our, you know, local and
• 25:10
  regional music scene that at least I had a network of people to interview that were
• 25:15
  interesting and had people that were going to consume that on their own.
• 25:19
  Right?
• 25:20
  And being a a musician myself, I was very comfortable being in front of a camera or on a
• 25:25
  stage in front of a microphone, you know, behind a microphone that I had a lot of
• 25:31
  advantages to someone who's, you know, working behind a desk all day as a podcast fan and
• 25:35
  goes, I wanna start a podcast.
• 25:36
  Right?
• 25:37
  So I had some a leg up on a lot of those people, but I've still had to spend two years
• 25:43
  getting these reps in, doing over a thousand interviews in the last two years to really hone
• 25:49
  in on what my skill is.
• 25:51
  And and I found that, you know, from from the life that I have lived, the amount of emotional
• 25:56
  intelligence that I bring to every conversation, that life experience that I bring
• 26:01
  with me to be able to just get on a level with anyone, whether they're a a hall of fame
• 26:06
  athlete or they are a small business owner, I can find that common ground.
• 26:11
  And, you know, that works for me.
• 26:14
  That may not work for the next podcast.
• 26:16
  You have to work to find it.
• 26:17
  Don't expect your first iteration of what you, you know, what you thought you were going to do
• 26:23
  and your podcast was going to be all about.
• 26:25
  It it may not be it.
• 26:27
  And you have to be willing if you want to be in this and your why is to be a successful
• 26:32
  podcaster, you have to be willing to change and willing to be adaptable.
• 26:36
  Well, that's the beauty of podcasting is you do have that ability to adapt to what your
• 26:42
  audience is telling you what they want.
• 26:45
  Now if that's not what you want, you have to make that ultimate decision.
• 26:50
  Like, well, I don't wanna do that.
• 26:52
  Well, your audience is telling you what they want.
• 26:55
  If you wanna do what you're still doing and your audience is telling you that's not what we
• 26:59
  want, you're gonna have to come you're you're gonna have a come to Jesus at some point.
• 27:05
  I've worked with a whole slew of different types of podcasters.
• 27:08
  I've worked with very unfamous people, and I've worked with some very famous people.
• 27:13
  And they've all had varying degrees of success, and it all, of course, came back to the why.
• 27:18
  I've worked with some very famous people that have huge audiences, huge potential audiences
• 27:24
  that did podcasts that got under 100 downloads an episode.
• 27:29
  And the whole reason was because, one, they didn't know their why.
• 27:33
  Two, they weren't delivering content that was of any value.
• 27:37
  And three, because they were delivering content in a manner where they thought they were
• 27:42
  getting paid, they didn't have any authenticity to what it was that they were doing, and the
• 27:48
  audience can sniff that out in seconds.
• 27:51
  If they can tell that you're not passionate about what it is that you're talking about,
• 27:56
  they will be like, nope.
• 27:58
  This isn't for me.
• 27:59
  I can tell you're reading off of a card.
• 28:01
  I can see you reading off of a card.
• 28:05
  You know?
• 28:06
  It's like, hello.
• 28:10
  Yeah.
• 28:10
  It's it's all it all goes back to you.
• 28:12
  You have to be passionate about what it is that you're talking about.
• 28:15
  You have to know what your why is, and you have to listen to your audience and deliver to your
• 28:20
  audience exactly what it is that they want.
• 28:23
  When you do all those things, you're gonna be on the right path.
• 28:26
  Audience growth, is, as you said, a very long game.
• 28:30
  It's going to happen slowly.
• 28:32
  It's gonna happen naturally, but that is the best type of growth because those people are
• 28:38
  with you forever.
• 28:40
  They're not gonna break away from you.
• 28:42
  As long as you're loyal to your audience, your audience is going to be fiercely loyal back to
• 28:47
  you, and that is what's ultimately gonna help you grow because, like you said, it comes back
• 28:52
  to community.
• 28:53
  Everyone's gonna start bonding.
• 28:55
  Everyone's going to know exactly what the show is about.
• 28:57
  Everyone's gonna know exactly what this community is about, and they're going to bond
• 29:02
  over that.
• 29:03
  And that is a bond that no price.
• 29:06
  There's no price on that bond.
• 29:08
  And as long as you remain loyal to them and you serve them exactly what it is they want, they
• 29:15
  will be loyal and help you in the long run.
• 29:18
  Yeah.
• 29:18
  And I think there's some really great examples of that and a further monetization are live
• 29:23
  events, you know, bringing your your podcast and your community together in person, which I
• 29:29
  think, you know, regardless of how you feel about their content, you know, the legion of
• 29:34
  skanks have it down to a t.
• 29:37
  Right?
• 29:37
  A podcast like kill Tony in that world that started out with maybe 10 people in the
• 29:44
  audience and no views and nothing on its own is now selling out, you know, multiple nights in a
• 29:49
  row at Madison Square Garden and continues to grow and build because, one, you're creating
• 29:54
  good content, and two, you're very conscious of what what it is that your audience likes and
• 30:00
  giving them more of that.
• 30:01
  Right?
• 30:02
  And I think that's incredibly important.
• 30:04
  I I I love, you know, those two in particular because they are different.
• 30:08
  They are not just an interview basis to it.
• 30:11
  It's entertainment.
• 30:12
  The the entertainment value of it is exceptional.
• 30:16
  And I think it's really amazing to see what guys who nobody knew their names, you know,
• 30:21
  ten, fifteen years ago have slowly built up and built up to that.
• 30:26
  Now granted, they have relationships with some of the biggest podcasters in the world, which
• 30:31
  no doubt helps on that to get a little bit, but anyone is one step away from that relationship
• 30:37
  building.
• 30:38
  And the more you're getting out and the more people you're connecting with, you never know
• 30:42
  when that big break in this world is going to be that viral moment.
• 30:46
  So keep going.
• 30:47
  Right?
• 30:48
  You know, keep podcasting and and keep going because you never know.
• 30:51
  And even a Joe Rogan, you know, kinda steps back and and he he recounts the story quite a
• 30:56
  bit on his podcast that, like, I didn't know the podcast was successful till, like, five
• 31:01
  five years in.
• 31:02
  And then finally, you know, I'm at one of my shows and going, like, who listens to the
• 31:05
  podcast?
• 31:06
  And and the crowd goes nuts, and he's like, oh, people are listening.
• 31:09
  Right?
• 31:10
  Because I I think when you're invested in just the creation process and letting things play
• 31:15
  out how they're going to, you're you're going to find that community.
• 31:18
  Because not everyone is going to follow you on your social media and and respond and comment
• 31:22
  on everything that you're doing and give you a five star rating as much as you may ask for it
• 31:27
  in the world as well.
• 31:30
  You are you're gonna find your people, and your people are going to find you.
• 31:35
  Jay, I wanna get into a little bit of what your future is going to look like.
• 31:40
  Obviously, just being part of a, you know, downsizing of the podcast division over at
• 31:46
  Cumulus, a a a, you know, casualty of that, if we shall say.
• 31:52
  You are now yourself kind of back at square one in your podcasting journey.
• 31:57
  And and I'm interested to know, you know, with all of this experience that you have not only
• 32:03
  in the industry, you know, behind the microphone, but also in the business of it,
• 32:08
  what are your takes on how the industry, is moving now and what you're gonna do to get back
• 32:14
  into the pool.
• 32:16
  Yeah.
• 32:16
  I think everything for me is on the table.
• 32:20
  As you mentioned, back to square one.
• 32:22
  The beauty of being back to square one in podcasting, though, is that I know exactly what
• 32:27
  it takes.
• 32:28
  I know what what needs to be done.
• 32:30
  I know where I know where the bodies are buried, to put it in another way.
• 32:36
  I can help people in all facets.
• 32:39
  I've worked with independent podcasters.
• 32:41
  I've worked with famous podcasters.
• 32:42
  I've worked with corporate podcasters.
• 32:45
  I know the strategies that work for all three of those types of podcasters.
• 32:50
  I can help people in any manner or facet in that sense.
• 32:54
  So, I've done some consulting in the past.
• 32:58
  I will gladly do consulting in the future.
• 33:00
  You can reach me, on my LinkedIn, on Podvader on LinkedIn.
• 33:04
  Podvader is everywhere.
• 33:05
  But you if you wanna reach me, that's probably the best way to get me.
• 33:09
  Linkedin.com/podvader.
• 33:13
  And and you can DM me there or ask or ask to, be one of the followers or whatever LinkedIn's
• 33:20
  verbiage is.
• 33:21
  I don't even know anymore.
• 33:23
  Every every social media platform got their got their own verbiage.
• 33:27
  But I'm but but I'm on I'm on x.
• 33:30
  I'm on Facebook.
• 33:31
  I can't believe I called it x.
• 33:33
  I I usually still call it Twitter.
• 33:35
  But I'm I'm I'm there too.
• 33:37
  You can follow me there.
• 33:38
  I don't I'm not I haven't been that active because I haven't been allowed to be that
• 33:43
  active, but I'm probably gonna be a little bit more active these days.
• 33:47
  And, honestly, you know, the corporate world is is sort of I I think some of the things that
• 33:55
  are happening in the corporate side of podcasting, there's a little bit of there's a
• 34:01
  lot of wishes, I think, that are happening, and not a lot of those wishes are obviously based
• 34:07
  in reality.
• 34:08
  And I think that I come from a space where I'm a 100% based in reality.
• 34:14
  I look at the metrics.
• 34:16
  I look at the stats.
• 34:18
  I dive deep into the data, which keeps me grounded into exactly what is working and what
• 34:24
  isn't working.
• 34:26
  And I'm not saying that video isn't working.
• 34:28
  What I'm saying is your video strategy has to be different than what your audio strategy is.
• 34:35
  And, oh, by the way, that was figured out many, many years ago because we have television
• 34:42
  stations and radio stations.
• 34:44
  They're not the same station.
• 34:46
  They're different mediums, and they're different mediums, for a reason because people
• 34:51
  interact with them in a different manner.
• 34:54
  So you can work with them in a different manner.
• 34:57
  You can sell them in a different manner.
• 35:00
  Video is obviously visual.
• 35:02
  I can create an ad that happens right now that I can continue talking about what it is that
• 35:08
  I'm talking about that doesn't get interrupted.
• 35:11
  But there's still an ad there, and somebody's going to see it, and somebody's still going to
• 35:15
  be impressed by it.
• 35:16
  And because you didn't interrupt this conversation to play that ad, they're actually
• 35:21
  probably more likely to go and look into what that product is all about that my host just
• 35:28
  told me, hey.
• 35:29
  This is important to me for you to go and support the show.
• 35:33
  There's a lot of old things that we've forgotten as podcasters that we don't do
• 35:38
  anymore.
• 35:39
  We don't we forgotten the call to action.
• 35:41
  We forgotten to remind our audience that, hey.
• 35:45
  Yeah.
• 35:46
  Ads suck, but they're here for a reason.
• 35:48
  They're here to help me continue to create this content that you want.
• 35:53
  So the more that I can impress on the audience that you're helping me out by purchasing these
• 35:58
  products is key to the success of the podcaster, especially from a business point of
• 36:05
  view.
• 36:05
  But that goes beyond just the independent podcast.
• 36:08
  That goes for the corporate podcasters as well.
• 36:11
  They seem to have forgotten what advertising is all about.
• 36:14
  They seem to think that they're going to get advertisers just to make money, not
• 36:18
  understanding that at the end of the day, you gotta sell that product.
• 36:22
  And if your content's not selling that product, then you have a problem in your chain.
• 36:27
  So make sure that your podcasters are selling the product.
• 36:31
  And how are they selling that product?
• 36:33
  They're telling their audience that the product is important to them to help keep this content
• 36:37
  coming for them.
• 36:39
  And on top of that, we talked about some of those other podcasters that you mentioned, how
• 36:45
  they've made friends with some of the biggest podcasters in the world.
• 36:50
  Well, that's part of podcasting.
• 36:51
  That's part of your evolution as a podcaster too.
• 36:54
  It's not just about building your own community.
• 36:57
  It's about becoming part of the larger podcasting community.
• 37:01
  And as you make those friends, moving along the channel, they can help you build your audience
• 37:08
  at the same time.
• 37:09
  So that when you do bump into Joe Rogan and you find out that you have a lot of common
• 37:13
  interests and that he does take a liking to you and enjoys your content just as much as you
• 37:18
  enjoy his, he'll recommend your show to his audience, and he obviously has a ginormous
• 37:25
  audience.
• 37:26
  So I'm not saying, like, everybody's gonna go become best friends with Joe Rogan.
• 37:31
  But at the end of the day, you are gonna become friends with somebody at some point, and that's
• 37:36
  the beauty of podcast conferences like Podcast Movement, which is coming up in September.
• 37:42
  And so I'll be much more involved in a lot of these things.
• 37:45
  And I think that's part of it.
• 37:48
  Corporate corporate podcasting has gone to a back to the old days of, like, well, you are my
• 37:54
  enemy, and I have to fight against you.
• 37:56
  And I've I can't share any information with you because the but that's not what podcasting is
• 38:01
  all about.
• 38:01
  Podcasting is all about sharing and helping others in the rising tide lifting all boats.
• 38:07
  That doesn't happen a lot in the corporate side, And I think that's part of the problem
• 38:12
  for the corporates.
• 38:14
  They don't understand how to be successful in this medium because they think it's all about,
• 38:19
  you know, building their walled castle and keeping the enemy out.
• 38:24
  Whereas in podcasting, it's about bringing everybody in, and everybody helps contribute to
• 38:30
  the success of everything.
• 38:32
  Yeah.
• 38:33
  They they kind of missed the point.
• 38:35
  They backed up the dump trucks of money and all the brake trucks, right, and unloaded into it,
• 38:41
  you know, over the last, I would say, five years.
• 38:44
  And now they're seeing almost no ROI or obviously less or or, you know, you wouldn't
• 38:50
  be, you know, losing your gig.
• 38:52
  Right?
• 38:52
  And it it's sad that someone who could help them get out of the quagmire that they're in,
• 38:58
  they're pushing to the side, but no doubt that they'll be they'll be fine.
• 39:04
  Cumulus isn't going anywhere with with their large footprint, But I think that you are are
• 39:10
  going to get back out and to be extremely successful, and I hope that you have an
• 39:14
  opportunity to help a lot more people with your consulting and starting a new podcast.
• 39:19
  I'm really excited to see the this next version of Podvader out there after having spent the
• 39:26
  last five years not doing podcasts and not, you know, being more behind the scenes, getting you
• 39:32
  back out there and the insights and the knowledge that you've gained being a part of
• 39:37
  that, the big part of that corporate world now on these shifting sands and bringing that back
• 39:43
  to the to the podcasters.
• 39:46
  Huge shot to Podcast Movement.
• 39:47
  They gave me a scholarship ticket to go down to their event in Grapevine, Texas last year.
• 39:52
  Had a great time.
• 39:53
  Got to meet Adam Curry.
• 39:55
  And it was really listening to his was probably, what, a year and a half in at that
• 40:00
  point.
• 40:00
  And listening to his, you know, talk was all about build a small community.
• 40:05
  That community will will support you and and will grow with you.
• 40:09
  And, really, don't worry about the views.
• 40:12
  Don't worry about these CPM models and these shifting sands that you're standing on with all
• 40:17
  of these these moving goalposts or whatever other analogy I can come up within the next
• 40:21
  five seconds.
• 40:23
  It's about building community.
• 40:25
  And I literally kinda was like, okay.
• 40:27
  Thank you.
• 40:27
  Took my headphones off, put them back in the bin, and said, see you later.
• 40:32
  I I had a great time, and I connected with a lot of, you know, industry folks there and
• 40:37
  others.
• 40:38
  But I realized that that was a little bit of the confidence that I needed in myself to say,
• 40:43
  hey.
• 40:43
  You're on the right path on the way that you are building this thing.
• 40:47
  Just keep going.
• 40:48
  It's not gonna happen overnight, there's a lot of work ahead of you.
• 40:51
  Just go get back to work.
• 40:54
  Yeah.
• 40:55
  I think, you know, Adam created podcasting.
• 40:59
  He is the pod father.
• 41:01
  And his vision, I still think, remains strong and the strongest for the podcasting community
• 41:08
  as a whole.
• 41:10
  I think if you follow what he says and what he recommends, you're not gonna go wrong, because,
• 41:17
  ultimately, you're going to build your community.
• 41:20
  And like we said, community helps each other.
• 41:23
  And they're gonna prop you up.
• 41:25
  They're gonna be loyal to you.
• 41:26
  They're going to help you when you need help the most and vice versa.
• 41:30
  You're gonna help others in your community, and others in your community are gonna help others
• 41:36
  in the community.
• 41:36
  It's just that's the way that we as humans survive.
• 41:42
  Never mind podcasting or anything else.
• 41:45
  Just as human beings, like, being part of a community is part of our nature.
• 41:51
  It's what helps us to live and breathe and survive in this world.
• 41:56
  And if we can remember that, then we're gonna be just fine.
• 42:00
  And if we can you know, not to take it too far down, but if we can remember that, we can sort
• 42:06
  of forget this whole red state, blue state thing and sort of understand that the real
• 42:13
  truth lies in the middle.
• 42:15
  Sorta like content.
• 42:16
  When I talk about creating content, I wanna get as many different perspectives as I can because
• 42:22
  that's gonna give me the real truth.
• 42:24
  We can understand that and and come to that point.
• 42:28
  We used to have that.
• 42:29
  We don't seem to have that anymore.
• 42:31
  It's only my idea is the only idea.
• 42:33
  No.
• 42:33
  It's not.
• 42:34
  By the way, some of the things I said today, I'm sure there's somebody out there that's
• 42:38
  like, he is full of it.
• 42:40
  Like, there's no what now.
• 42:42
  He doesn't know what he's talking about.
• 42:44
  My opinion is way different than his.
• 42:47
  And that's a 100% okay.
• 42:49
  And by the way, your opinion and your strategies might work just as well as mine.
• 42:55
  I'm not saying that I know all the answers because I don't.
• 42:58
  But at the end of the day, I've been here for a while.
• 43:02
  I know what works.
• 43:03
  I know what doesn't work, and I can help you find that way if that's what you're looking
• 43:10
  for.
• 43:11
  I think that's a great place to cut it off, Jay.
• 43:15
  Had an awesome conversation with you.
• 43:17
  Just really appreciate your time.
• 43:19
  Like I said, really looking forward to this next iteration of of Podvader, getting back out
• 43:25
  there and and getting back into the podcasting world.
• 43:28
  Looking forward to following whatever the new show is or or possibly shows that you're doing.
• 43:32
  Whether, maybe you'll get back into sports.
• 43:34
  Who knows?
• 43:36
  I mean, I'm not against it.
• 43:38
  That's for sure.
• 43:39
  I do love my sports.
• 43:40
  I do love my Patriots, and, you know, we're looking at a very interesting upcoming NFL
• 43:47
  season for sure.
• 43:48
  Well, we'll
• 43:49
  have to get you back on the sports network at some point and and talk some football with you,
• 43:53
  man.
• 43:53
  I would absolutely love that.
• 43:55
  Everybody check out Jay.
• 43:57
  Go find him on LinkedIn, linkedin.com/podvader.
• 44:01
  Jay Soderberg, thank you so much for joining me today, giving me a little bit of your time, and
• 44:06
  thank you for being part of the scene.
• 44:08
  Bubba, thank you.
• 44:10
  Gladly come back anytime.