Latest / The Diary of a CFO / From 6x National Champion to Fortune 500 Chief Audit Officer - Lori Kaczynski on Leadership and Resilience

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From 6x National Champion to Fortune 500 Chief Audit Officer - Lori Kaczynski on Leadership and Resilience · The Diary of a CFO

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More than 2 trillion payments flow through Atlanta
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every year, with an estimated 70 % of all U .S.
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credit card transactions touching the city. Yet...
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Most of business conversation is still centered
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on places like New York and San Francisco. This
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is a limited series where I'm sitting down in
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person with CFOs and senior finance leaders right
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here in Atlanta to learn about how they build
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their careers, what's working, what's different
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about doing it here, and get a better understanding
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of the humans behind the big titles. Let's get
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into it. Here with me today is Lori Kaczynski.
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Lori is a Senior Vice President, Chief Audit,
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Risk, and Compliance Officer at Graphic Packaging
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International. a Fortune 500 company headquartered
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right here in Atlanta, where she leads the company's
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global internal audit, compliance, and enterprise
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risk management functions. With more than 20
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years of experience across industries and company
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sizes, Lori is a powerhouse in the Atlanta business
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community, chairing the advisory board of Kennesaw
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State University School of Accountancy and serving
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on the board of Sheltering Arms Early Education
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and Family Centers. She's been named one of the
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Atlanta Business Chronicle's Women Who Mean Business.
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Now let's get to it. Welcome to the show, Lori.
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Thank you. I'm happy to be here. I'm really excited
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to engage with you and learn from each other.
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Oh yeah, especially me because your background,
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your story and so many things we talked about
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off record. What brought you to Atlanta? Well,
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I was minding my own business and living in Northwest
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Canada and a gentleman came along who was an
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American and he happened to live in Atlanta at
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the time. He waited until I became single and
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then asked me to move. Wow. Patience. Yeah. He
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was extremely patient, extremely kind. I was
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a little too busy for him, but he waited and
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it all turned out brilliantly. So happy to be
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here. Yeah. So how was life back then? What were
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you doing? Oh, I had, I actually went to college
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as a mature student. Okay. My father had a seventh
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grade education. My mother had a 12th grade education.
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And I was born in a small town. The closest cities
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were about eight hours a drive. And the town
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had 5 ,000 people in it. And it's named after
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a fur trapping location. So the middle of nowhere
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kind of upbringing. And just based on their backgrounds,
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there was no coaching about college, no discussion
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about those kinds of careers or professions or
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business. And so but I knew I wanted something
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different than what I'd seen growing up. And
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I just didn't know how to get there and had no
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coaching. So I did some hourly jobs. was offered
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sort of management types of roles, retail, you
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name it, a variety of financial services location
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where we would process mortgages and car loans
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and things. Then I met my husband, had to wait
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for my green card. And once I got my green card,
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I applied to Kennesaw State University. But I
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applied to be a marketing major. So pivoted a
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bit along the way. But yeah, I had three brothers
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and sisters. I think... grew up with very little.
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It was a household where it was who gets the
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next pair of shoes this year, and we all had
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to live with what we had. Wow, that's amazing
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to where you are now, you know, an executive
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at a fortune ,500 company, but then you were also a
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competitive skater at some point. Yeah, well,
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there's lots of ice and snow there. So it kind
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of lends itself to that. But, you know, my brothers
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and sisters and I were in very close age proximity
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and I was the youngest. So you just go wherever
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they go. And so there was hockey and figure skating
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and speed skating. And certainly I... Had no
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choice. That's where we were. So I put skates
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on at one year of age and just started skating.
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But I speed skated for a long time. I thought
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and my goal was to get to the Olympics. That
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was also maybe another way to change my life
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and pivot from my origin story. But some things
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changed along the way that we'll talk about in
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a minute. But I love physical activity. And I
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like moving and I like being outdoors. So that
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was all things that lend itself to it. I naturally
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have a lot of strength. So it was a great sport
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for me and loved doing it. But I also am a very
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hard worker and that fits well with, you know,
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sports. I sort of fell into it, but I loved it.
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And I did it all the way up until something pivoted
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and I couldn't continue anymore. But I won six
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national championships and one North American
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championship as well. I had a national record
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for a certain distance as well. Did short track
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like Apollo Ono does, if you remember him from
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the Olympics. And I also did long track, which
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is what Eric Hyden and some of the other great
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skaters have done. But I had to pivot. And you'll
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notice my story has a lot of pivots. Yeah, let's
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talk about that first pivot first, because six
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national championships, amazing, okay? And especially
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when you said you started skating from the time
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you barely walked, like one year old. The African
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me is like, whoa, okay? We see ice, we go the
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other way. So what caused the first pivot for
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you? Yeah, so when I was 18, 19... Driving home
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for Christmas, I had moved to a small city and
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was driving home for Christmas, and we hit some
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black ice on a very wide curve. Happened to be
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driving a vehicle that was a little bit more
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top -heavy than most because we were going to
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bring some belongings back to our apartment.
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And the way the vehicle hit the snowbank, it
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just had snowed a lot. It was a high bank. The
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nose of the... Bumper went into the snowbank,
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and we flipped four times in four different directions
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for 100 feet. And they could measure what the
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vehicle did in the snow. And my leg was severely
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injured. And speed skating involves a lot of
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legs. So I had to sort of decide that that wasn't
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going to be an option anymore. And then it was
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about rehabilitation, to be honest. Back then,
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they didn't have all the amazing surgery options
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they have today. It was kind of stick everything
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back together and pray that I could walk. So
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it was a long time. I was on crutches for a very,
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very long time and then had a cane for two years.
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So, you know, at that point, it was about just
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getting well again. Wow. Now from this, like
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I can only imagine like what went through your
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mind. At that point, because you were still eyeing
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like the Olympic championship, like that was
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still where you wanted to go. What kept you going
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through all this? You know, the great thing about
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sport is it gives you resilience because you're
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not going to win every race. You're going to
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get disqualified sometimes. You're going to get
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pushed out of the race by somebody else or, you
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know, your edge on your skate. Edges are very
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important when you're skating on ice. you know,
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isn't strong that day or you skate over something
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on the ice and you fall, you've probably seen
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figure skaters have that happen at the Olympics.
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And so you learn to just be resilient. And I
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think my upbringing created that as well. I was
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a child of divorce as well. So, you know, at
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about the age of 12, they separated. The age
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of 14, I was sort of raising myself a little
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bit. They were loving, amazing parents. I have
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nothing to complain about. But distractions happen,
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right, when people's worlds fall apart. And I
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think that just creates a person that wants more,
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wants to find a place where you're safe and secure.
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And that kept you going, right? Because then
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you came here eventually and then you started,
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you wanted to do marketing. Why marketing first
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and how did you switch to accounting? Yeah, I
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always had loved numbers. I think I told you
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one of my hourly jobs was working for a financial
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services firm. found math interesting and easy
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and I like logic however I also wanted to do
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something that had a little bit more people interaction
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and I thought marketing could combine those skills
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and then I started at Kennesaw State University
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And I found that some of the classes, it seemed
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very intuitive to me. And I guess I like a challenge
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and a level of complexity in my life. I always
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tell every boss I've ever worked for, keep me
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challenged and slightly confused and I'll stay
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here. And so I really enjoyed the accounting
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classes and they came naturally for me. I'd had
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one hourly job where I sort of did all the company,
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well, actually two, where they figured out my
8:57
skill set and I had done payroll and bookkeeping
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in the past. past. So it was kind of a natural
9:02
transition. But I also had some fabulous, Kennesaw
9:05
State is known for in their accounting school
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for the quality of their professors. They care
9:11
more about teaching in many ways and the students
9:15
than their research, which, you know, you could
9:17
argue for both. But I had some fabulous professors
9:22
that just said, you're a natural at this. This
9:24
is where you need to be. And I trusted. their
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advice. And here I am today, still friends with
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some of those teachers. One of my teachers is
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actually the head of the School of Accountancy
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right now. Oh, wow. That is so cool. But you're
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still involved with Kennesaw State. Like since
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you left, you stayed connected. Yes, absolutely.
9:43
Absolutely. I think I find it very interesting.
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the interconnectivity between research, academia,
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and the application of how we use that knowledge
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and those skill sets in the real world. And Kennesaw
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State has a multi -billion dollar impact on the
10:02
community here in Metro Atlanta. And it's very
10:04
important to them and it's very important to
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the community. And so making sure that we are
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producing accounting students that the businesses
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find very useful and could be like you one day
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and be the next CFO. So it gives you the opportunity
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to talk. Talk about the curriculum at the university.
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What are we teaching them? Why are we teaching
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them that? What are the new graduates not have
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that they need to have? So, right, an interesting
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topic now is AI. Yes. Because how does that change
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what they're teaching? And so I'm assuming our
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next board meeting will cover that. But it's
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just been a wonderful, wonderful connection for
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me. And I actually started a scholarship there.
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for accounting students that maybe come from
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a background like mine didn't have the means
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didn't have the coaching to get there with ease
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um and i'm very excited about that so we give
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it out every year i think it's been going for
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six or seven years now and then i'm also on their
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um athletics association board which is very
11:04
interesting because the tuition students pay
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funds the athletics programs and so it gives
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you a whole new view of the university and how
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it works and the president chairs that board
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so it's very very fun And then they have a center
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for internal audit that I'm also on that board
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and really gives me a lot of fun, a lot of interest.
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I don't have millions to hand back at this point
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in my life yet, but they honored me by inducting
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me into their business school, Hall of Fame recently,
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just because of all the time and effort I've
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done in giving back, mentoring programs. They
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have a women's program. I've mentored in that
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before as well. So I think just living with gratitude
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and giving back to your community helps you get
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these connections and make friendships. Like
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I think you will be now on my list. Yes, yes.
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love it and i love how it's it's coming like
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a full circle for you right with like the scholar
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the scholarship program you mentioned definitely
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on the athletics i would have never qualified
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i still won't qualify for anything athletic because
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i grew up the trebuchet would like food so oh
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always that way always happy um to hear that
12:17
and understand the part when you said the application
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of what we learn in school because I feel like
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coming out of college I didn't feel well equipped
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for what was waiting for me yeah um I wasn't
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well equipped like and that was back then we're
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just gonna I'm 35 years old so back then I will
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come on and I wouldn't feel ready so I'm curious
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to hear from you like what do you think are the
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gaps that we that whether it's universities or
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employment like What are the gaps that we need
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to fill rather quickly to allow people to be
12:51
more ready when they come out of college? Absolutely.
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I've always believed, and I think we talked about
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this a little bit in advance of this, you have
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to have strong soft skills. And those are the
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hardest things, I think, to teach people if they
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naturally don't have them. But you need to actually
13:07
be able to speak verbally and be able to communicate
13:11
effectively at every level in the organization,
13:14
not just at the top. And then you have to be
13:17
able to write well and make sure people can understand
13:20
it. You don't want things to be misconstrued,
13:23
right? In finance, we tell a story of how the
13:26
business is performing or how safe it is, how
13:29
the controls are working. And so I think those
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soft skills are very, very important. I think
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AI is going to change what's in the curriculum
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in the schools. I think AI is going to change
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some of how we in finance work. Right now, it
13:45
appears to me that the tech companies that already
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have technology on their side, as well as the
13:51
extremely large companies, are probably taking
13:53
leapfrogs, where some of us are taking little
13:56
smaller steps. But I don't know of anybody right
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now who's not trying to use AI in some way every
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day in their work that they're doing. And so
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for those of you who aren't, I think you should
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be. Until you experiment, you don't know what
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it can do. And I think the more you experiment,
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the more it learns. only gives you better answers
14:15
over time. So I also have always believed we
14:20
don't give accounting students enough IT types
14:24
of skill sets so that you can understand the
14:27
systems, right? You know, we used to talk for
14:29
the last 15 years about everything going digital,
14:32
right? That was every white paper you read was
14:35
about the digital transformation and the digital
14:37
journey. So if you don't understand all of that,
14:40
it's very hard to do your job because everything
14:42
is interconnected now. If it's not interconnected
14:45
now, we have a manual control or a manual process
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that creates more risk of human error. And then
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AI is going to be very tricky with what I do
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as an internal auditor. And even for the external
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auditors, how do we prove to the SEC, the PCOB,
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that AI was tested well enough and the human
15:04
looking at it actually had the requisite skills
15:06
to make sure it gave the right. answer. So there's
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lots of things I think what we have in front
15:10
of us that are going to change. I believe people
15:14
will always be involved. I don't think you can,
15:18
especially in our career lines, I don't think
15:20
you can trust that AI will give the right answer.
15:23
You have to have the skill set above it. So I
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think coming forward for academia as well as
15:29
for us in business is how do we bring people
15:31
up with the level of experience to look at the
15:34
answer that AI has given them and know that it's
15:36
right or have the detailed skills like you've
15:39
seen them, CFOs and CEOs that can look at a man.
15:42
management report and say, this has to be wrong.
15:44
And you see other people in the room go, I don't
15:47
understand. How did you pick that up so quick?
15:49
It's because of those years of understanding
15:51
the business. But I mean, I think this wasn't
15:55
sort of built into your question, but I encourage
15:57
everybody, be naturally curious. If you want
16:02
to learn about that business and understand how
16:04
it all works, you will be a better employee.
16:07
You'll do better in finance. Even if you're just
16:10
closing the books, that knowledge of the business,
16:13
you will catch things. And in my line of work,
16:15
what I always say to all the finance people within
16:17
the organization is you're the final stop for
16:20
making sure the financial statements are accurate
16:22
and complete and tell the truth story and are
16:25
transparent. And so raise your hand. Don't be
16:29
shy. And I think finance people are the people
16:33
who are going to keep the shareholders safe.
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Yes, I agree. And I like how you say our line
16:38
of work, because I feel like within our line
16:41
of work, we understand each other. And then you
16:44
go out and you're like your CPA, you do taxes,
16:46
like people really don't understand the breadth
16:49
of what it is that we do. So I'm curious to hear
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when people hear you a chief audit officer, like
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what do they think you do versus what you actually
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do? My daughter's 24. My husband's my age. And
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I think only in the last five to 10 years have
17:04
they learned what they think I do. You're right.
17:07
It is a hard job to understand. You can't say
17:09
I'm here to protect the shareholders, right?
17:11
That's a very abstract comment. So in explaining
17:16
it, sometimes people look a little... Bored,
17:19
I'm going to be honest. But it, for me, has been
17:22
a very, very exciting career. Because I don't
17:26
audit with an enforcement mindset. I believe
17:29
auditing is best when you're the business partner
17:32
to the CFO, business partner to the chief accounting
17:35
officer. They're going to tell you stuff, right?
17:38
If you are their friend and their trusted advisor
17:40
and they know that you're not going to do anything
17:43
unexpected with the information they share with
17:46
you, they are going to tell you about their problems,
17:48
and then they will start coming to you. Really,
17:51
internal audit, the way I view it, is an internal
17:53
service to the organization as well as that back
17:56
third line to protect all the shareholders who
17:59
rely on those financial statements. But internally,
18:02
we do advisory services as well. And the only
18:06
way we get to do those fun projects is because
18:09
they actually respect us and we work with them
18:12
at all times. So that's why those soft skills,
18:14
we're circling back there, are so important.
18:17
I do not hire an internal auditor who can't have
18:20
good verbal communication skills. And be able
18:23
to transition those verbal skills between an
18:25
hourly worker on a plant floor and sitting in
18:29
front of the CFO. And that's early on. So I look
18:32
for that when I hire them. And actually, my hope
18:36
is that then they could go into the business
18:37
and actually do business roles because they also
18:40
have those soft skills. And I like how you said
18:43
you don't use an enforcement mindset as opposed
18:48
to a business partnering mindset. Can you give
18:51
us an example of what you would have done differently
18:53
if you were going as an enforcer, right? There's
18:56
a situation I go in with my enforcement hat versus
18:59
I go in the same situation but with a business
19:02
partner hat. Yeah, I have worked once in an audit
19:06
shop that was a little bit more of an enforcement
19:08
mindset, and that was when I changed my mind
19:10
about how it should be done. And what happens
19:13
is it feels to the organization like we're doing
19:16
something to them. It feels like we're forcing
19:19
something on them. And then when you interview
19:23
them, a lot of what we do is verbal, to be honest.
19:25
We back it up with real data, but they will explain
19:31
more. It will help you understand more, and you
19:33
will then become a better auditor because they're
19:35
willing to explain and give you the details.
19:37
The other way you see it, so in that example,
19:40
done well, the business finance head will call
19:45
me and say, hey, I think I'd like you to go look
19:49
at the inventory at XYZ location. I need your
19:53
help. And so that doesn't happen at every audit
19:56
shop, and it happens to us regularly. We add
20:00
projects all the time that weren't anticipated.
20:03
Our audit committee and board love it because
20:05
then they know we have an open exchange of information
20:08
with management. We still have to do our Sarbanes
20:11
-Oxley testing and make sure every control is
20:13
working and provide management's opinion on how
20:17
well their controls are performing. I work a
20:21
lot with the external auditors, but you can do
20:25
all of that. in a very amenable way where everybody's
20:29
getting along and everybody trusts each other
20:31
and building that trust is so important right
20:34
because now i feel like everybody in the finance
20:36
organization We want them to be business partner.
20:39
We want everybody to be at that business partner
20:41
because when you go to school, you kind of taught
20:44
the enforcement mindset of audit, like give me
20:47
this paper, this paper, this paper. Let me check
20:49
that all three matches are matching a certain
20:51
way or who reviewed it. Like you tend to think
20:55
that's how it should be, right? But I like how
20:58
you said you change your mind and really use
21:01
that business partner. And they're curious to
21:03
see how you help. the rest of your team embrace
21:06
that mindset. Yeah, I mean, three of the audit
21:10
shops that I've led, I built. So it was easier
21:13
in that situation to hire for the skills that
21:17
we and the company deem appropriate. I'm big
21:20
on, and you've probably heard this from other
21:22
people you've spoken with or may believe it yourself,
21:25
but I am big on culture fit. I always tell people
21:29
when I'm interviewing them. This is a fit discussion.
21:32
You need to ask me questions and make sure you're
21:35
comfortable working with and around me and make
21:37
sure you like our company and our culture. Because
21:40
if you're not happy, you're going to leave. And
21:42
we want somebody who wants to be here and stay
21:44
here and is excited about the role and excited
21:47
about what we do as a company. And I'm going
21:50
to interview you for the same things. I think
21:52
fit is really important. And that means everything
21:55
from culture to aptitude to, you know, the people
21:58
you're working with. This last audit shop I've
22:04
built, it's been miraculous. They are all best
22:07
friends. And it is so nice to see that on the
22:11
unfortunate side, that means they're a little
22:13
less eager to go off and work in the business
22:15
roles because they really enjoy working together.
22:17
But we've just somehow created this hardworking,
22:20
focused, kind. culture where we each care about
22:26
each other and know each other very well. So
22:28
proud of them all. So proud of them. Good for
22:31
you. And very inspiring, too, and says a lot
22:34
about you as a leader. Now, being in your line
22:37
of business, particularly, you have to tell things
22:40
people don't want to hear. Like, that's a part
22:42
of audit, whether external or internal, that
22:45
we don't always talk about. Like, how do you...
22:48
do that like how are you able to say stop doing
22:52
this to somebody that's like a big head because
22:55
you may be hurting the company in this way or
22:58
that way like what helps you build that courage
23:00
and keep that relationship afterward I call it
23:04
political or organizational savvy okay at the
23:08
top of the the pile I guess and what that means
23:12
to me is you have to understand who all the players
23:16
are what motivates them, who the key influencers
23:19
are in the organization. And you have to be able
23:22
to know that there are going to be times you
23:24
take risk, to your point about your question,
23:26
but that's what your job entails. That's what
23:29
I'm accountable and responsible for working for
23:31
a public company is to call the audit committee
23:34
chair when I need to call the audit committee
23:35
chair. I often set expectations with the CFOs
23:39
that I've worked with of no surprises unless
23:42
I have to, right? Meaning... almost every time
23:46
i let the cfo know what i'm going to talk to
23:48
the audit committee chair about before i do it
23:50
or as i'm doing it there have been times i can't
23:54
and those are tough conversations but to me this
23:58
job requires high integrity i think all finance
24:00
jobs do but i think this job requires the kind
24:04
of integrity where you will put your job on the
24:06
line to do the right thing and say the right
24:09
thing to the right people but that's where the
24:11
savvy of the organizational politics can kind
24:14
of come in. If you've built these trusted relationships
24:17
and business partnerships that I was talking
24:19
about earlier, they know you're not doing it
24:22
because you want to be mean or vindictive. They
24:24
know that you're doing it because it's your job.
24:27
And at the end of the day, they respect you for
24:29
that. I've had board chairs call me and ask me
24:32
to investigate high -ranking people and keep
24:35
it secret, not even tell the general counsel.
24:38
Right. It's a job. I always tell my bosses, it's
24:41
a lonely job unless you have a lot of chief audit
24:44
executive friends, because there's times where
24:46
you just want to call somebody and say. What
24:49
are you doing about this? And that gives you
24:51
that glorious, and I will tell you, in Atlanta,
24:54
Metro Atlanta, it is a large, large, sprawling
24:58
city. But when it comes to the finance community,
25:01
we are all so supportive of each other. And it's
25:03
the same way for the chief audit executives here.
25:05
We have enough large public companies that we
25:08
can really, we have a, I volunteer time at our
25:12
Institute of Internal Auditors. local chapter
25:16
here in Atlanta. It's a very active chapter.
25:18
We have some between 2 ,500 to 3 ,000 members.
25:22
We provide 39 events throughout the year to train
25:25
the auditors and get them together and have them
25:28
network together. So we've also tried to set
25:31
up a community where that happens. But I have
25:33
a Rolodex of chief audit executives that live
25:36
right here in the community. I've also found
25:39
those Round tables, I'm sure you found that as
25:42
a CFO, those round tables that you belong to
25:44
in your career that have peer jobs that do the
25:47
same thing, they are limitless when things are
25:50
changing or there's disruption. We all use consultants
25:53
in finance, and I find making them your friend,
25:56
not just your consultant, especially the lead
25:59
partner, is very helpful because you can have
26:02
great knowledge transference. You can actually
26:05
share information both ways. The more transparent
26:08
I am with them, I find the more they'll share
26:10
information where I'm not even paying for it,
26:13
right? The great consultants come in and say,
26:16
well, what are the problems you're having today
26:17
and how do I help instead of selling? So I usually
26:20
tell them that right off when I meet them. But
26:23
yeah, I think all of that's important. And when
26:26
we do argue and argues. probably the word they
26:31
feel sometimes with a client. I call them customers,
26:34
actually. I don't know if my shareholders like
26:37
that, but I like it because what it means is
26:40
we can do this together. We can solve the problems
26:42
together. That you have to say, no, this finding
26:46
will stand and it is a high risk. And the business
26:49
is trying to tell me it's not a high risk. But
26:52
that's where that trusted partnership again shows
26:54
up, where there is debate. we can faithfully
26:58
discuss about what's best for the company and
27:01
alignment. That's another time when you can use
27:03
your third -party consultant. So if we're talking
27:06
about something very technical and I feel like
27:08
I need backup, I will sort of say, can you just
27:11
come to this meeting with me and speak up and
27:15
give them other facts about other companies so
27:17
they get a real -life benchmark in the discussion
27:19
to help them understand. But we also, in internal
27:23
audit, you can't raise every finding and can't
27:25
raise every finding as if it's, you know, the
27:27
ceiling's broken and we're being drowned and
27:30
they're all high and critical. And it's not as
27:33
bright a line as you would think in internal
27:35
audit for some of our operational audits. So
27:38
to me, you know, this saying I sometimes say
27:42
to people is you can win the war, but you'll
27:44
lose the battle. If I'm trying to audit a whole
27:47
function on a whole variety of topics and I'm
27:51
willing to, you know, fight for a long time over
27:54
two or three findings when I audit them all year
27:57
round, every year, it's not going to be a productive
28:01
relationship. And so we have to figure out where's
28:03
the middle ground and how come, why don't we
28:05
agree on the risk? The other thing I use, Von
28:09
Mises is a philosopher, and I've used this, I
28:12
simplify what he says in today's language. But
28:17
when people don't want to change, and I use this
28:19
in internal audit all the time, when people don't
28:22
want to change, there's usually three reasons.
28:24
Number one, They aren't uncomfortable with the
28:28
current situation. Number two, they don't see
28:31
a path to a future state. And number three, they
28:33
don't have a future state in mind. And so when
28:37
we have challenges like that, I use that model
28:39
to figure out why are they pushing back? Maybe
28:43
they don't think anything's wrong today. Or maybe
28:45
they do agree, but they don't see a way because
28:47
they don't have the money. the right talent in
28:49
the organization to actually cause the change
28:52
to occur, or they don't even see what the final
28:55
vision could be. And it's usually more than one
28:58
of them. It's usually two with one being primary.
29:00
And once I figure out what that is, I can actually
29:03
speak much more caring. and kind with my audit
29:09
customer to figure out what is the solution and
29:12
how do we get there. The other thing I say all
29:13
the time is we are all smart people. That's how
29:15
we got here. I know we can find a solution for
29:18
this. So let's just work on it together. Nice,
29:20
nice. And I like how you said, so two things
29:23
that you said that really resonated with me is
29:25
one, having your network. of, you know, other
29:29
chief audit officers. I do have my, I call them
29:31
my CFO friends as well because he helps. Because
29:34
it is lonely because there's only usually one
29:35
you in the whole C -suite inside your organization.
29:39
The other thing was a consultant. It's crazy
29:42
how, and it reminds me even, you know, family
29:45
-wise, right? You can say the same thing. Somebody
29:48
else say the same thing to your kids and they
29:50
listen to the other person. I feel sometimes
29:53
that's how consultants are. It helps bring perspective
29:57
so it's not just you. So that's a great, great
30:00
way to use them. Yeah, absolutely. And I hire
30:04
my consultants with the same thing in mind as
30:07
with employees and partners is are they a culture
30:12
fit? Are they going to dig a hole and leave a
30:15
hole? Are they going to dig a hole and then help
30:17
us work on the hole in a kind -spirited way,
30:20
right? Yes. I use a multitude of firms, and the
30:23
reason I do that, it's really about the people.
30:26
This is an internal service to the organization
30:28
and an external service to the external auditors
30:31
and the shareholders. And if I've got the right
30:34
people, we can make all of this work. Having
30:36
the right people and how you hire them. Now,
30:39
I wanted to take a break here because going back
30:41
to the work you do at Kennesaw State, right?
30:43
Because when we come through the ranks, like
30:47
when we go through school, We think that what
30:50
will help us at some point is what we learn,
30:52
like all the technical aspects. But when you
30:54
were describing how you hire people, you mentioned
30:56
soft skills, you mentioned your culture. These
30:59
are totally different, especially as you get
31:02
higher and higher in your career. So what would
31:05
you advise somebody that's just starting in their
31:08
career to think about as they progress? Like
31:12
what are the things that you... probably learned
31:14
the hard way like most of us did, to help them
31:16
bridge that gap. Because yes, your technical
31:18
skills will be the strongest thing on your resume
31:20
and will help you when you start your career.
31:22
But then as you get to the VP role and C -suite
31:25
role, it's completely different. Yeah. I always
31:29
say the technical skills will get you there,
31:31
but the soft skills will get you where you want
31:34
to be. That's my mantra that I tell people and
31:38
coach people with all the time. You do have to
31:40
have the technical foundation to have the respect
31:43
to be a partner. But the soft skills and how
31:47
you do that is much more important as you start
31:52
to choose your path or pivot as you go along.
31:56
So I think what you're saying is exactly spot
31:59
on. I think I... figured that out on my own,
32:03
unfortunately. I wish I'd had a few more sponsors
32:06
throughout my career and life. I think I have
32:09
now, but early on because I was new to the country,
32:14
new to a business world, right? So I had to figure
32:19
that one out on my own. It was like, boy, I work
32:21
really hard. I'm the one in the office the longest,
32:24
especially while I was at PricewaterhouseCoopers.
32:27
And I'm working really hard, but not always being
32:30
noticed for what I'm doing. And I like to be
32:34
humble as well. So it's hard. It was hard for
32:38
me to learn to say, look at what I did, right?
32:42
I would just do the work and expect people to
32:44
notice. And it's not that you have to tell them.
32:47
It's sort of a change to being able to articulate
32:49
the value you bring more than what you did. And
32:53
you do have to do that. And I think it's probably
32:57
more so for women that we have to do it. I think
33:04
anyone can have imposter syndrome. I just think
33:08
most of the women I know have some level of imposter
33:10
syndrome because of the generation we came from,
33:14
right? My mother was a homemaker. So certainly
33:17
this is an all new ground that I've experienced.
33:20
And I think I tell people, you know, it's okay
33:24
not to know things, but also believe in yourself
33:26
and be confident in what you do and the skills
33:29
you have. But that is that technical basis as
33:32
well, right? And it's only later on that I learned
33:35
it's all that communication. And you talked about
33:38
the network. There's some chief audit executives.
33:40
I hug them when I see them. This is not a, you
33:42
know, nice to meet you, shake your hand relationship.
33:46
And I now made it a thing to figure out who I'm
33:49
going to add to my hug federation this year.
33:52
But there are some that I can consider absolutely
33:54
dear friends. I've gone to events with and really
33:58
enjoyed. There is a chief audit executive I belong
34:02
to that's all Fortune 500 women across the nation,
34:06
about 60 large. You have to be Fortune 500, 60
34:09
large public companies. And at first, when they
34:13
asked me to join 10, 15 years ago, I'm like,
34:16
why? The topics we were discussing were the same
34:19
as any other roundtable I belong to. But what
34:22
I found is the women would actually share documents.
34:26
They'd share deep inside thoughts. they would
34:30
really try to help lift you up and have us all
34:33
grow together. 30, 25 years ago in this industry,
34:39
it wasn't like that. I am so proud of that change.
34:43
It used to be there was only really one woman
34:45
sort of nearing the top. And so sometimes I saw
34:50
behaviors where we weren't nice to each other.
34:52
And we've pivoted that. It's really, I think
34:56
there's enough room for all of us. And if we
34:57
help each other, we can get there. And what's
35:00
interesting is just the way this group of 60
35:04
women share. I can have my CFO ask me a question.
35:08
I generally, after all these years, know an answer.
35:11
But I'm like, let me go get a real -time answer.
35:13
I can email those 60 chief audit executives,
35:16
and I've got 20 responses by 5 p .m. Nice. Like,
35:21
it's amazing. That's the one roundtable where
35:25
I get that response. So I can literally call
35:27
him that night and say, here's the answer from
35:30
20 public companies real time today. That is
35:34
an amazing network. And it's amazing to see what
35:38
people can do when we work together and pull
35:40
together. And we don't have to share industry
35:43
knowledge or we don't even have to share. The
35:46
things we're not supposed to share from an antitrust
35:48
standpoint, we can share sort of our technical
35:50
things, right? And how we get things done. So
35:53
it is. That's the other thing I learned in my
35:57
career. Because of my background, people were
36:00
saying, I remember hearing it in college, too.
36:02
You have to network. You have to network. I'm
36:03
like, what is networking? And how do I unlock
36:06
this box? Where's the key? And I never, ever
36:10
understood what it was. And then one day my husband
36:14
is very charismatic. And one day he said to me,
36:16
I just have so much fun connecting people. When
36:19
I meet somebody and they have a need and I find
36:21
somebody else who has the need and I'm like,
36:22
oh, I'm just supposed to find people with needs
36:27
and connect them. That I can do. And he didn't
36:31
say that to try and help me. It was just one
36:33
of those moments where you have this beautiful
36:35
realization. An aha moment. Yeah, aha moment.
36:41
used that ever since with other people. And it's
36:45
really like that. I used to think, well, you
36:48
mean I'm supposed to go to somebody and ask them
36:50
for something? Why are they going to help me?
36:52
And what I've discovered, if you just talk to
36:54
people, you'll find common ground. And then you
36:57
find common needs. And then you share. And it's
37:00
really remarkable. And it makes you not feel
37:03
alone in that CFO role. Yes. And I love how you
37:06
talked about having that support group, right?
37:09
Because First, when I asked you initially the
37:12
question and you were going over, yeah, first,
37:15
be able to articulate your value. That one is
37:18
very hard to do because I'm originally from Ivory
37:21
Coast, right? And it's, you know, being humble.
37:24
You don't brag, brag, brag, unless it's money.
37:27
Yeah, we're crazy about that. But then you come
37:30
here and it's different. You have to learn that.
37:33
And then you have to have a network because you
37:35
realize that a lot of the opportunities are just
37:37
getting the answers. you're not going to have
37:40
all the answers. That was one thing, too, because
37:43
a lot of people were like, oh, it will probably
37:47
take me 10, 20 years to get there. And I'm like,
37:49
I don't know anybody who got into their seat
37:52
and they knew all the answers on day one. No
37:56
one ever will know all the answers. Yes. Right.
37:58
It's one of the things colleges are dealing with
38:00
right now is there's more information than you
38:02
can teach in four years. And now you've got AI
38:05
and all these other things. So it's it's about
38:08
being resourceful now. Where do you find all
38:11
the answers? And then having that foundation
38:12
we were talking about earlier, that foundation
38:14
matters in our industry of finance. Yeah. So
38:18
I'm curious to hear other things in that journey,
38:21
because I'm originally from Ivory Coast. Like
38:23
what was that transition for you like coming
38:25
from Canada, the US? I know it's. shorter distance
38:28
but I'm pretty sure you probably have some things
38:31
like I cut you by surprise and were like oh I
38:33
did not expect this absolutely yeah I think people
38:36
think because it's Canada and we're the neighbor
38:39
yes oh it's so easy it was nothing it was absolutely
38:43
today I'm hoping today it would be easier but
38:47
when I moved across the border I needed some
38:51
thread to mend something and I'm Driving around,
38:55
nobody to ask. My husband was an Air Force reservist.
38:58
He was overseas serving at the time. And I'm
39:01
like. No cell phones. Where do I find thread?
39:07
You know, and I'm running around. I go, what's
39:09
Target? Let's go into the Target store and see
39:11
what's there. I'm like, how could this huge department
39:14
store exist and not have thread? And then I found
39:16
a little end island. But it was a very limited.
39:18
And I'm like, there's got to be thread in this
39:20
country. I know that's a silly little story.
39:23
But that's that moment where I suddenly felt
39:26
alone, kind of. Really, really alone. So then
39:30
I started to try to find people who liked things
39:33
that I liked from where I was, right? Meeting.
39:36
But certainly once I started working, once I
39:38
had my green card, that made it so much easier
39:40
because you then already have some people you
39:42
can talk to and know. But there are other, you
39:45
know, people would make fun of my speaking. You
39:48
probably don't hear it anymore about out. And
39:51
even my daughter used to tease me because I have
39:53
a mom. And she'd say, she would laugh at me and
39:55
say, do you spell that M -U -M? And I'm like,
39:58
no, I spell it M -O -M. So since she's first
40:01
born abroad, I went and got her Canadian passport.
40:04
So she can't make fun of me anymore. But yeah,
40:08
I think now my family up there thinks I sound
40:10
Southern now. So apparently Atlanta's had an
40:13
impact on me after all three decades. But yeah,
40:17
I think, I don't say y 'all, but I don't say
40:22
reckon. But I think it's just the how I'm speaking
40:25
and the rate of speaking and the more musicality.
40:28
Canadians, we go up at the end. So when we ask
40:31
you a question, it's like, how are you? And a
40:34
lot of Americans miss that, and I'm waiting for
40:36
the answer. So there's little nuances like that.
40:40
You don't even think about washroom versus bathroom,
40:43
toilet in Europe, right? And sometimes at a restaurant
40:48
the first few years, I had asked for the wrong
40:50
thing, and they go. What's that? Oh, gosh. Talking
40:54
about restaurants. So my story there is so I
40:58
when I came here, we went to the movie theater
41:01
the first time with a group of international
41:04
students. And we went to the movie theater. We
41:07
got we wanted to do like in the movies. Right.
41:09
So we got a big bucket of popcorn and we got
41:12
drinks. So I needed a straw and I didn't know
41:15
how to say a straw. So I went in because we had
41:20
people from Japan, from China. So everybody's
41:22
there. And I'm like, okay, so let me think in
41:26
French, what would that be? Yes. So in French,
41:30
it's either pie or what would be spelled at pipette,
41:35
like a small pipe. So I take my whole courage.
41:38
I'm like, well, there's nobody here to help because
41:41
my friend are from Japan. Like we all in the
41:44
same group. So I was like. Can I please get a
41:48
small pipe? And they looked at me like, she's
41:51
asking for a pipe. I'm like, yeah, for my drink.
41:55
Yes. And I was, so later on I learned that pipe
41:58
was for plumbing, that it had nothing to do with
42:01
the straw. Yeah. Yeah. Or smoking. The slang,
42:05
the slang is what's different, right? We have
42:08
French Canadians in Canada and, you know, their
42:11
French is different than France French, which
42:13
is different than your French. Yeah. There are
42:16
little nuances like that across the board. I
42:19
don't even remember them all, that at first were
42:23
challenging, but sooner or later they disappeared.
42:25
Yeah, and you laugh about it later on. I'm just
42:28
blessed that I have the experience to be here.
42:30
I mean, I was in a blessed country as it was.
42:32
Canada is also very blessed. I was raised with
42:36
lots of love, and living here in the United States,
42:39
I've had nothing but great things happen. So
42:41
I feel blessed. I am blessed. These little things
42:47
don't matter then if you look at the big picture,
42:49
right? Yes, yes. And I'm always curious to hear
42:52
how you think those experiences, like you being
42:56
from another country, you being a competitive
42:58
skater, and I think if I remember it well, you
43:01
had actually four knee surgeries. Yes. Four.
43:04
How all these experiences would shape the way
43:09
you lead today or your leadership style view
43:12
of things? Yeah, I think. Kindness is really
43:19
important. I can come across a little stoic.
43:22
You know, those personality assessments we all
43:24
take at some business gives you at some point.
43:27
I can come across a little stoic when you first
43:31
meet me, but that's not who I am on the inside.
43:33
I think it's a layer of protectionism from all
43:38
that stuff maybe. And I've had to sort of feel.
43:41
very comfortable for, I mean, speed skating was
43:44
a great example. I never told a soul about my
43:48
speed skating background for ever. And then I
43:51
was listening to a woman speak. She was talking
43:55
about her tennis career and I found it compelling
43:57
and extremely interesting. She was a CFO and
44:01
I'm like, why am I so afraid? But it was because
44:04
I felt like I failed. Well. You know, you can't
44:07
plan everything in life. Is that really failure?
44:10
You pivoted. You made it all good. You went a
44:12
different direction. You know, the car accident
44:15
happened. It was nobody's fault. It was the weather.
44:18
It was the ice. You weren't speeding, right?
44:21
So that sense of self -awareness and reflection,
44:24
I think, is really important in realizing how
44:29
people view you. So because I know that. I have
44:32
to guard myself a little bit. Once you get to
44:34
know me, I can be extremely expressive. But I
44:37
have to sort of feel comfortable with you first.
44:40
And so for me, it's remembering that I need to
44:43
come across to the people sometimes at first
44:46
in a similar fashion until they get to know me
44:49
very well. Not stoic one time and the next time
44:52
I'm laughing, you know. And so that's something
44:54
I had to learn to manage over about the last
44:57
15 years. But thank God somebody gave me that
44:59
feedback. right in a in a performance review
45:03
and and the the personality assessments I think
45:07
it's easy to take that information and go yeah
45:09
that's me but then not know what to do about
45:12
it and so somebody finally gave me that feedback
45:15
once and said you can come across confusing um
45:18
sometimes you're very directive yeah i'm a high
45:20
d um you can come across very directive and other
45:23
times you're so warm and friendly and i think
45:25
it confuses people and so this those those kinds
45:28
of things you have to just learn how to manage
45:30
them so you so your staff your peers your boss
45:33
aren't confused by it and i haven't figured anything
45:36
out yet i'm still i want to live i want to do
45:39
so many more things in my life that i'm kind
45:41
of I'm sad we only live as long as we do. Oh,
45:44
now I want to hear that part. I want to experiment
45:47
a lot. I want to teach. I want to become a fitness
45:50
instructor. I have a whole list. My daughter
45:53
wants me to write a book. I have a whole list
45:56
of stuff I still want to do. So I'm framing up
46:00
my portfolio career because I'm a worker. I will
46:04
always be busy. So there's no retire for me.
46:09
I already know that. I already figured that out.
46:11
And there's no, I don't like the term rewire
46:13
because it's like something was wrong with you
46:15
to begin with. So I met a lady recently and she
46:19
was saying I'm having. She was in her 70s, I
46:21
believe, because she told me that. She's like,
46:23
I'm having so much fun in my portfolio career.
46:26
And I said, oh, tell me what that is. She listed
46:28
all the same things I want to do, a little consulting,
46:30
maybe be a chief audit executive for hire. And
46:35
I'm like, that's exactly what I'm going to call
46:37
it. So I'm making my list of my portfolio career
46:40
so that when I'm ready, I'm set up for. staying
46:44
really busy until until my time on this earth
46:47
is over and I'm that excites me to stay busy
46:49
I like being busy yes I like being busy with
46:52
the right thing and I especially like to to schedule
46:55
naps in my day my husband thing is crazy I'm
46:58
like no that's part of being busy because I need
47:00
all the energy I can get so this is all part
47:02
of me being busy there yeah studies show that
47:06
you're better after that nap now I can't nap
47:08
I've never napped I don't know why I'm broken
47:10
but Good for you that you can. I'll be praying
47:14
for you because a good nap will change your life.
47:17
It probably will, yeah. My last question before
47:20
we leave. If you had a magic wand, what is one
47:24
thing you would change about your career or your
47:26
life? Yeah, that's a hard question for me. I
47:30
guess, can I tell you why it's a hard question
47:32
first? It's a hard question for me because I
47:35
try not to look back. except for to be self -reflective
47:39
and learning about myself, I try to say, well,
47:44
that happened. I could do it better. Or I like
47:48
that. I'll do more of it. And I don't believe
47:54
in luck, I think, or magic wand, because I think
48:00
luck is being prepared when the circumstances
48:02
present themselves. And so it's like that foundation
48:06
of our technical skill set. It's all the stuff
48:09
I've learned about the soft skills. It's all
48:12
the stuff I've learned about being authentic
48:13
and coming across evenly to people. But if I
48:20
could, I'd probably hope that I didn't have the
48:26
car accident. That would be nice, not to have
48:28
to rehabilitate for three years. I also believe
48:34
you have to take those adversity moments and
48:37
turn them into learnings and deepening of your
48:42
soul. And I am not sorry the car accident happened
48:46
and changed my life. I think I'm a better person
48:49
for it. I think I'm deeper. I think I understand
48:52
how blessed I am because of it. And it made me
48:55
very resilient as well. So I think you have to
49:00
look at all parts of your life and be thankful
49:02
for it. That's beautiful. Well, thank you so
49:04
much, Lori, for being on the show. It was so,
49:07
so, so amazing. I still want to know off record
49:10
how she got four knee surgeries. She told me.
49:16
Okay. But thank you so much. I'll let you guys
49:20
keep guessing. It was great to be here. Thank
49:23
you for asking me to do this. And your questions
49:25
were very interesting. And I enjoyed this time
49:28
with you. Thank you so much. That's so great
49:31
to hear. Thank you.