Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / Therapist Vanessa Reiser Discusses Narcissistic Abuse

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Therapist Vanessa Reiser Discusses Narcissistic Abuse · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

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Speaker 1: real conversations in a new language today. Welcome back to Misunderstood.
1:28
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Rachel Yucatel. Having personally experienced narcissistic abuse,
1:32
Speaker 1: our next guest has channeled her own journey of survival
1:36
Speaker 1: and healing into her work as a psychotherapist. I'm really
1:39
Speaker 1: excited for you guys to hear our interview that we've
1:42
Speaker 1: done with Vanessa Reiser. She has become a leading authority
1:45
Speaker 1: on narcissistic personality disorders and specializes in supporting victims and
1:49
Speaker 1: survivors of domestic violence and other forms of narcissistic abuse.
1:53
Speaker 1: Some of you may recognize Vanessa from recent news headlines
1:56
Speaker 1: when she filed a restraining order against her ex-fiancé, Louis Roulas,
2:01
Speaker 1: of Housewives of New Jersey, after alleging that he had
2:03
Speaker 1: hired a private investigator, Bo Dietl, to stalk her in
2:07
Speaker 1: her place of business. Today, she will tell us what
2:09
Speaker 1: it was like to run 285 miles across the state
2:12
Speaker 1: of New York. I think it took her 11 days
2:14
Speaker 1: and all the while wearing a wedding dress. She will
2:17
Speaker 1: discuss her relationship red flags, share her invaluable insights, offer guidance,
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Speaker 1: and help us navigate the complex terrain of narcissistic abuse.
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Speaker 1: And most importantly, she will tell us her story in
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Speaker 1: her own words. So without further ado, let's welcome to
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Speaker 1: our show, Vanessa Reiser. Vanessa Reiser, welcome to Misunderstood. Thank
2:36
Speaker 1: you for joining me.
2:37
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
2:39
Speaker 1: Well, I'm really excited to meet you because I think
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Speaker 1: this topic is really important about narcissistic abuse and toxic relationships.
2:46
Speaker 1: I think it's a really misunderstood topic. I think a
2:48
Speaker 1: lot of people suffer from these kind of relationships and
2:54
Speaker 1: don't know how to navigate them. They don't know how
2:56
Speaker 1: to get out of them, if that's what the right
2:59
Speaker 1: thing is to do. But obviously, before we get into that,
3:02
Speaker 1: I just for a minute, just want to talk about
3:04
Speaker 1: your background and how you got into this line of work.
3:09
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I got my master's at 42 years old,
3:13
Speaker 3: so a little later in life. And I was working
3:16
Speaker 3: in the Bronx at an outpatient mental health clinic. It
3:20
Speaker 3: was very triage style and also working at the Bronx
3:24
Speaker 3: High School of Science. and high school of American studies
3:29
Speaker 3: as a school social worker. And I really loved it
3:32
Speaker 3: and fell into a toxic relationship. And that sort of
3:36
Speaker 3: catapulted me into studying personality disorders. So I now kind
3:41
Speaker 3: of work alongside some of the experts in the field
3:45
Speaker 3: that are dealing with clients that are narcissistically abused.
3:50
Speaker 1: Right. So let's just talk about that for one second
3:53
Speaker 1: because obviously your name is somebody that people recognize now
3:56
Speaker 1: and we don't need to get into who your issues
4:00
Speaker 1: are with. But I do need to touch on the
4:02
Speaker 1: subject of the fact that you've been in the press
4:04
Speaker 1: recently because of all this drama. And my show really
4:08
Speaker 1: does not go into the Housewives and doesn't go into
4:11
Speaker 1: all this stuff. But I do need to ask because
4:14
Speaker 1: I know your lawyer has commented on the fact that
4:16
Speaker 1: you recently had to get a restraining order against your ex.
4:19
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on it? Can you tell us
4:22
Speaker 1: what happened from your words instead of from your lawyer?
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Speaker 2: I can't really get into too much about that.
4:28
Speaker 3: Anything that's already printed is pretty easily and readily available,
4:33
Speaker 3: and people can kind of look into that. But as
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Speaker 3: far as anything moving forward, I can't really get into
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Speaker 3: the specifics on what's currently sort of being dealt with.
4:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we don't need to talk about what's going
4:45
Speaker 1: on going forward, but can you discuss at all what
4:49
Speaker 1: happened that made you have to get a restraining order?
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Speaker 3: I can't talk about that. I can talk about, as
4:55
Speaker 3: I said, stuff that was already printed. So in the past,
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Speaker 3: in this relationship, I fled the relationship, and there were
5:06
Speaker 3: some things that occurred in the courts in terms of
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Speaker 3: my business being taken over. Um, and, um, him spitting
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Speaker 3: on me, calling me a fat whore, bleaching my clothing,
5:16
Speaker 3: telling me my dead father was a loser. Um, so
5:19
Speaker 3: some of these things have been printed in terms of, um,
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Speaker 3: what was an abusive relationship in my world, but in
5:25
Speaker 3: terms of what's going on lately, my attorney would tell me.
5:29
Speaker 2: Okay.
5:29
Speaker 1: So, um, was that the first time you had been
5:32
Speaker 1: in a abusive relationship?
5:36
Speaker 3: No, I think looking back, you know, in hindsight, having
5:40
Speaker 3: reflected now, I think there were probably at least two
5:43
Speaker 3: others that I recall being probably very dangerous and not
5:48
Speaker 3: realizing it at the time that they were a lot
5:50
Speaker 3: of parallels with this particular relationship. So I think it's
5:54
Speaker 3: very common for people to, a lot of my clients
5:57
Speaker 3: present as having gone through it multiple times. I think
6:00
Speaker 3: until you sort of do the work and understand what
6:03
Speaker 3: it is and how to create boundaries, you become susceptible
6:07
Speaker 3: to this time and time again.
6:09
Speaker 1: So let's get into that then. Can you explain what
6:12
Speaker 1: exactly narcissistic abuse is and how it differs from other
6:16
Speaker 1: forms of abuse?
6:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, so narcissistic abuse is an insidious form of domestic violence.
6:22
Speaker 2: This is where somebody isolates.
6:24
Speaker 3: You, intimidates you, manipulates you, love bombs you, future fakes.
6:31
Speaker 3: They isolate you.
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Speaker 2: They lie.
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Speaker 3: They cheat. And they kind of mind control you. We
6:40
Speaker 3: see this a lot in cults. It's really no different.
6:44
Speaker 3: Every cult is led by a narcissist, a sociopath or
6:46
Speaker 3: a psychopath or some version of the three of those
6:50
Speaker 3: or two.
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Speaker 2: Sometimes they are histrionic.
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Speaker 3: So I aim to sort of highlight the clinical components
6:57
Speaker 3: that are involved in this. So, you know, these are
7:00
Speaker 3: people that are cult leaders are generally when you're in
7:02
Speaker 3: a relationship with a narcissist, you're in.
7:03
Speaker 2: A cult of one.
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Speaker 3: Are there people on the periphery that are sort of
7:07
Speaker 3: cultivating the relationship and perpetuating the narrative?
7:11
Speaker 2: Yes. But it's really the same exact experience.
7:16
Speaker 1: What is your version of what trauma bonding is? People
7:19
Speaker 1: talk a lot about that right now.
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Speaker 3: Trauma bonding is what happens in the beginning of the
7:24
Speaker 3: relationship is this love bombing phase. And then you have
7:27
Speaker 3: a devaluing phase and then you have a discard phase,
7:31
Speaker 3: but it does repeat. So the love bombing phase on
7:34
Speaker 3: the second cycle is the makeup phase. So this is
7:38
Speaker 3: the makeup phase. Everything is okay. And then there's the
7:41
Speaker 3: tension building phase. This is the devaluing stage. And then
7:44
Speaker 3: the discard phase, which is the fallout. So it's the makeup,
7:48
Speaker 3: tension building, fallout. Makeup, tension building, fallout. It happens on repeat.
7:52
Speaker 3: And what happens is you develop an addiction to the
7:56
Speaker 3: makeup phase or the love bombing phase. So that's the
7:59
Speaker 3: trauma bond. You're looking for that fix again. Are they
8:01
Speaker 3: going to make it okay? In my case, when I fled,
8:04
Speaker 3: I shook physically for nine days because I was waiting
8:07
Speaker 3: for it to get fixed again.
8:09
Speaker 2: Is it going to be made better?
8:10
Speaker 3: And so they liken it, there's a lot of studies
8:12
Speaker 3: now around a drug addiction. So you're addicted to the serotonin,
8:16
Speaker 3: this dopamine upkick that you get from it being sort
8:19
Speaker 3: of fixed. And it's really very similar to having a
8:23
Speaker 3: drug fix.
8:24
Speaker 1: So I feel like I've been in relationships like this.
8:28
Speaker 1: Like I remember, well, first of all, I'm a love
8:30
Speaker 1: addict for sure. And then, you know, I identify with
8:34
Speaker 1: people who, you know, kind of come in and save
8:36
Speaker 1: the day and all these things. And I sort of
8:40
Speaker 1: put a bag over the head of someone who just,
8:43
Speaker 1: you know, is not right for me, shows all sorts
8:45
Speaker 1: of red flags, but then I just want to make
8:47
Speaker 1: them into this white knight, you know? So it's like...
8:52
Speaker 1: For me, I've gone through circumstances where, you know, we've
8:56
Speaker 1: done this makeup, breakup, makeup, breakup, and it's really sort
8:59
Speaker 1: of abusive and like a lot of shaming and making
9:03
Speaker 1: me feel like I almost need them to move forward
9:08
Speaker 1: with a lot of things. And if I don't have them,
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Speaker 1: I'm not worth anything. And then when they do come back,
9:15
Speaker 1: it almost feels like, oh, thank God. You know, even
9:17
Speaker 1: though if I had any self-worth at that time, I
9:19
Speaker 1: would be like, why would I ever be with a
9:21
Speaker 1: guy like this? But I think that's really hard to
9:23
Speaker 1: break that cycle. How do you suggest that people break
9:27
Speaker 1: the cycle of getting out of that and not craving
9:31
Speaker 1: that fix that you're talking about or the honeymoon phase
9:34
Speaker 1: or they always know that things will get better or
9:38
Speaker 1: they're hoping that things will get better?
9:40
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there's a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy
9:43
Speaker 3: that helps in this regard as it relates to breaking
9:45
Speaker 3: the trauma bond. So that's going to include developing a
9:49
Speaker 3: list of things that you really love about yourself. So
9:51
Speaker 3: you want to step into your power because as you mentioned,
9:54
Speaker 3: there's this like sort of theme of low self-esteem that
9:57
Speaker 3: even though you may think everything's okay, you attaching your
10:00
Speaker 3: self-esteem to others. You tend to be maybe a people
10:03
Speaker 3: pleaser or an approval seeker. So I see this a
10:05
Speaker 3: lot with my clients. So developing a really strong, robust
10:09
Speaker 3: list of things that you love about yourself. It could
10:11
Speaker 3: be anything you've built mastery around. You know, it could
10:15
Speaker 3: be a degree or a medal or something that you
10:18
Speaker 3: want to sort of remember, even if there were something
10:20
Speaker 3: you could put up physically in your home, a picture
10:22
Speaker 3: of yourself that you really think is beautiful or things
10:24
Speaker 3: like this. You want to kind of make it very concrete.
10:26
Speaker 3: So it's about stepping into your power. And then you
10:29
Speaker 3: want to also create a list of things that this
10:33
Speaker 3: asshole did to you. And you want to remember it
10:35
Speaker 3: because oftentimes we have these rose colored glasses and we
10:38
Speaker 3: sort of forget, you know, conveniently that they left you somewhere.
10:42
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11:12
Speaker 3: That they did something that was rather abusive. So you
11:15
Speaker 3: want to have that at the ready as a resource
11:17
Speaker 3: to kind of tap into. And you can do this
11:19
Speaker 3: with friends. You can do this with colleagues. It doesn't
11:21
Speaker 3: have to be an intimate partnership. It could be a neighbor,
11:25
Speaker 3: a work associate. Sometimes we sort of, to make our
11:27
Speaker 3: lives easy, we take the path of least resistance and
11:30
Speaker 3: sort of forgive and forget and move on because it's
11:33
Speaker 3: a lot easier to do that than develop a boundary.
11:35
Speaker 3: But people need to remember what, has occurred. You know,
11:39
Speaker 3: sometimes we just gloss over it and you want to
11:42
Speaker 3: look for patterns, but I think those two things, developing
11:45
Speaker 3: a list of things you love about yourself. And that
11:47
Speaker 3: list also needs to not be contingent upon how.
11:51
Speaker 2: Others see you or view you.
11:52
Speaker 3: So this is something like funny, creative, smart, not caring
11:57
Speaker 3: and loving, because those things, while they're really wonderful, are
12:01
Speaker 3: still contingent upon how other people experience you. So it
12:05
Speaker 3: has to be really about you, almost as if you're
12:07
Speaker 3: going to be a little narcissistic.
12:09
Speaker 2: For this exercise.
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Speaker 1: Right, right. I still think that's really hard for someone
12:12
Speaker 1: who's so deep in it to like say, let me
12:14
Speaker 1: think of all the good things about me and then
12:16
Speaker 1: I'm okay to walk away. I think it, I mean,
12:19
Speaker 1: obviously it's harder said than done. I want to talk
12:21
Speaker 1: about red flags for a second, but in my opinion,
12:24
Speaker 1: the biggest red flag is looking at yourself. It's almost
12:28
Speaker 1: the red flag that you give off when you start
12:29
Speaker 1: to lie for the other person, lie about the other
12:32
Speaker 1: person to people to make it okay. For me, that's
12:36
Speaker 1: when I know that something is wrong. because I've heard
12:39
Speaker 1: myself do it. I've made things okay. And I have
12:42
Speaker 1: a couple friends that I can think of right now
12:45
Speaker 1: who are in those relationships and they're constantly lying for
12:48
Speaker 1: the other person. And that to me is like the
12:51
Speaker 1: biggest red flag of like, guys, this is not okay.
12:54
Speaker 1: But I hear their excuses of like, oh, but he's
12:57
Speaker 1: so good with my kid. Oh, but we have the
12:59
Speaker 1: best sexual connection. And oh, he was just angry about
13:02
Speaker 1: something at work. And oh, he just is having problems
13:05
Speaker 1: drinking too much. You know, when you're an alcoholic or
13:07
Speaker 1: you drink too much, that only brings out more of
13:10
Speaker 1: who you are. It doesn't make you an abuser.
13:12
Speaker 4: Right.
13:13
Speaker 1: So what are some red flags that people should be
13:15
Speaker 1: looking out for in their own relationships and even in
13:19
Speaker 1: others if they want to spot it?
13:22
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think if you are feeling like. you're being isolated.
13:26
Speaker 3: If you are losing your autonomy, so you don't do
13:30
Speaker 3: the hobbies.
13:31
Speaker 2: That you once enjoyed.
13:32
Speaker 3: If you feel you're getting involved in conversations that are
13:37
Speaker 3: rather circular. So this is like the word salad where
13:40
Speaker 3: you maybe are misfiring even or becoming really confused. So
13:43
Speaker 3: that's the potential that you're being gaslit. If you catch
13:48
Speaker 3: somebody in a lie, if there's love bombing and it's
13:52
Speaker 3: so over the top and so fast moving, Um, love
13:55
Speaker 3: bombing is tricky because somebody could just be, you know,
13:59
Speaker 3: sort of excited about the beginning of a relationship. Love
14:01
Speaker 3: bombing only becomes love bombing when the devaluing starts or
14:06
Speaker 3: something sort of the passive aggressive behaviors or silent treatment begin,
14:10
Speaker 3: because that's what love bombing is. It doesn't stand alone.
14:14
Speaker 3: It always has the devaluing attached to it. That's how
14:17
Speaker 3: you identify it. So it's tricky because you only see
14:18
Speaker 3: it in the rear view mirror. Um, But there's inconsistencies.
14:23
Speaker 3: So if you see inconsistencies in communication, people making excuses.
14:30
Speaker 3: So feeling controlled, if you feel like, you know, quote, unquote,
14:33
Speaker 3: something is wrong, then something might be wrong.
14:37
Speaker 2: Right. I don't understand stuff.
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Speaker 1: can we talk a little bit about the behaviors that
16:55
Speaker 1: are abusive that people might not know are abusive? Like
16:58
Speaker 1: what you mentioned, silent treatment, gaslighting. Some people don't even
17:02
Speaker 1: know the meaning of that. Will you talk about those?
17:04
Speaker 3: Sure. So gaslighting is when somebody sort of takes your
17:09
Speaker 3: truth and swirls it around and makes it not truth.
17:13
Speaker 3: So you have to really sort of understand that you're
17:16
Speaker 3: already on shaky ground if you feel confused. Anytime somebody,
17:20
Speaker 3: if you ask a direct question and they sort of
17:22
Speaker 3: dance or sort of crab leg around it and aren't
17:26
Speaker 3: direct or forthcoming with information, then I'm already on alert.
17:30
Speaker 2: My antenna goes.
17:30
Speaker 3: Up when that happens, if you're not going to sort
17:32
Speaker 3: of be direct and forthcoming with information. But really, the
17:37
Speaker 3: idea of gaslighting is it's designed to confuse you. Sometimes
17:40
Speaker 3: people who are manipulators or narcissists or sociopaths.
17:44
Speaker 2: Will also use mirror statements. um, and deflect. So let's
17:48
Speaker 2: say you say to somebody, you know, I can't, we
17:51
Speaker 2: had a fight. I can't breathe. And they go breathe.
17:53
Speaker 2: I can't breathe. They kind of rob you of your story.
17:56
Speaker 3: So they do this mirror statement and then it makes
17:58
Speaker 3: you confused because you're like, how now I'm on, you know, I,
18:01
Speaker 3: I used to say to, um, in my relationship, I
18:04
Speaker 3: used to say I'm on Houston street and you keep
18:07
Speaker 3: taking me on avenues, ABC and D like, it would
18:09
Speaker 3: be like, I would be taken on this ride with
18:12
Speaker 3: information and I would become so confused. So If somebody
18:15
Speaker 3: sort of distracts you even from information, that can be
18:18
Speaker 3: a version of gaslighting. So there are subtleties in it
18:20
Speaker 3: that I pay very close attention to now. If I
18:24
Speaker 3: ask a question and I don't get a direct answer
18:26
Speaker 3: and somebody starts to dance it, I'm already sort of
18:29
Speaker 3: nervous about it.
18:30
Speaker 2: But anything that is designed.
18:31
Speaker 3: To confuse you from reality and change what you know
18:34
Speaker 3: to be true can be a version of gaslighting.
18:38
Speaker 1: I think this kind of abuse, narcissistic abuse or any
18:42
Speaker 1: kind of emotional abuse is really hard for people to
18:46
Speaker 1: almost like qualify in their life because it's not physical.
18:49
Speaker 1: You know, there's no tangible evidence that it happened. And
18:53
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times victims are nervous about
18:57
Speaker 1: victim shaming or being blamed or people, you know, glossing
19:01
Speaker 1: over what's happened to them because there are no tangible effects.
19:04
Speaker 1: And I think that's what's hard for a lot of
19:06
Speaker 1: people to turn around and ask for help or leave
19:10
Speaker 1: because then people will just not understand why they've left
19:13
Speaker 1: this relationship that to the outside may have seemed so
19:16
Speaker 1: good because you've lied about it for so long, right?
19:18
Speaker 1: So I think that's what makes it, in my opinion,
19:20
Speaker 1: really hard for some people to leave. What are your
19:23
Speaker 1: thoughts on that?
19:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the average, it takes people seven times
19:28
Speaker 3: to extricate themselves from an abusive relationship, whether it's physical
19:32
Speaker 3: or otherwise.
19:33
Speaker 2: But I can tell you that every client that comes.
19:35
Speaker 3: To me that has been physically abused makes it a
19:39
Speaker 3: point to tell me that the psychological abuse is far
19:42
Speaker 3: worse because those wounds don't really heal as quickly.
19:47
Speaker 2: Most of my clients have trauma. Most of my.
19:50
Speaker 3: Clients have PTSD or CPS PTSD. It's like a traumatic
19:54
Speaker 3: brain injury. all of them have flashbacks and easy startle
19:58
Speaker 3: reflex and all of the symptoms of PTSD. And so
20:02
Speaker 3: while we're still learning about what narcissistic abuse does to
20:06
Speaker 3: the brain, and it's really very green in terms of
20:08
Speaker 3: data and things that we're studying, just in my experience
20:14
Speaker 3: and all of the information I've gathered from my clients,
20:17
Speaker 3: They always tell me that they have flashbacks and they
20:21
Speaker 3: always tell me that they can barely function and they
20:24
Speaker 3: have a hard time putting thoughts together.
20:26
Speaker 2: It's really a challenge for them.
20:29
Speaker 3: Especially if they are co-parenting with a narcissist, which is
20:32
Speaker 3: the worst thing that you can ever really experience, in
20:35
Speaker 3: my opinion, because it's like having a personal terrorist. They
20:38
Speaker 3: exploit the children and use the children as a way
20:41
Speaker 3: to destroy your life. And so they have a particularly
20:45
Speaker 3: hard time, especially entering the judicial system where all of
20:49
Speaker 3: these wounds are opened up and reopened up and is
20:53
Speaker 3: also riddled with narcissists in terms.
20:55
Speaker 2: Of the court.
20:56
Speaker 4: So Are you learning to drive? From the 1st of
20:59
Speaker 4: November 2026, new rules will apply for learner permit holders.
21:04
Speaker 4: To get a third or fourth learner permit, you must
21:07
Speaker 4: have taken a driving test within the previous two years.
21:10
Speaker 4: After your fourth permit, or if your permit has been
21:13
Speaker 4: expired for more than two years, you will have to
21:15
Speaker 4: start the learning to drive process again. Remember, you can
21:19
Speaker 4: only drive unaccompanied if you hold a valid full driving licence.
21:23
Speaker 4: Find out more at rsa.ie, a message from the Road
21:26
Speaker 4: Safety Authority.
21:27
Speaker 3: It's very hard for survivors because we don't really understand
21:34
Speaker 3: so much about it yet and we're still learning about
21:36
Speaker 3: so much of it. And you're right, you can't see
21:38
Speaker 3: the wounds. And so it's really hard for people to
21:41
Speaker 3: share their stories. And half the time they think that
21:43
Speaker 3: they're crazy themselves. So they have a hard time convincing
21:47
Speaker 3: others of what was so hard for them to even
21:49
Speaker 3: realize in the first place.
21:50
Speaker 1: Right. So some of the stuff that you have studied
21:53
Speaker 1: and that you specialize in is people that are involved
21:57
Speaker 1: in cult relationships or behavior or something like that. Can
22:01
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about how that is similar
22:03
Speaker 1: to narcissistic abuse?
22:06
Speaker 2: Yeah.
22:06
Speaker 3: So the cult leader is basically somebody who is controlling
22:12
Speaker 3: and manipulating, isolating the people who are in their group.
22:17
Speaker 3: And we saw this with the NXIVM cult. We saw
22:20
Speaker 3: this with, um, we see this with Scientology and stolen
22:24
Speaker 3: youth and, um, others, but their experience and the trauma
22:30
Speaker 3: that they, um, deal with is really no different than
22:33
Speaker 3: being in a relationship with a narcissist. It's pretty much
22:37
Speaker 3: the exact same playbook. Um, The cult leader generally is
22:44
Speaker 3: somebody who just has the ability to kind of convince
22:46
Speaker 3: more than one person. Generally, the narcissist has a lot
22:49
Speaker 3: of flying monkeys, as we call them, which are sort
22:51
Speaker 3: of like followers anyway.
22:54
Speaker 2: So it's not necessarily a cult of one.
22:56
Speaker 3: There's generally a group of people that are perpetuating the narrative.
22:59
Speaker 2: They could be friends, family members, business associates.
23:04
Speaker 3: The narcissist tends to have almost only transactional relationships.
23:10
Speaker 2: You see this a lot with CEOs.
23:12
Speaker 3: They tend to climb the ladder because they have a
23:14
Speaker 3: lack of empathy and create a situation where they have
23:18
Speaker 3: minions or followers and people.
23:20
Speaker 2: They're really no different.
23:22
Speaker 3: The cult tends to exploit your idea of either a
23:27
Speaker 3: religion or some kind of component in that way that
23:30
Speaker 3: they kind of hook there, you know, that you hook into.
23:33
Speaker 3: So that sort of variable spiritual abuse tends to be
23:35
Speaker 3: a little more pervasive with a cult, but generally it's
23:38
Speaker 3: the same concept.
23:40
Speaker 1: So I wanted to find out so people can really
23:42
Speaker 1: understand that are struggling with this. You went through it.
23:46
Speaker 1: How did you personally get through it and get out
23:49
Speaker 1: of it? How did, how did you even notice that
23:50
Speaker 1: this wasn't right in your life and that you deserve better?
23:55
Speaker 3: I think it was about four months and there seemed
23:58
Speaker 3: to be some kind of a issue that was sort
24:02
Speaker 3: of blown out of proportion. And it made me realize
24:05
Speaker 3: that there was something wrong. And then the cycle seemed
24:08
Speaker 3: to sort of just repeat itself over and over and
24:11
Speaker 3: over again with no solve. And it It was kind
24:13
Speaker 3: of maddening. And I got swept away. I kind of
24:18
Speaker 3: distanced myself from friends. Not that they necessarily distanced themselves
24:22
Speaker 3: from me.
24:23
Speaker 2: I also did that. I played a role in that.
24:27
Speaker 2: So it was both of those things.
24:29
Speaker 3: Didn't really participate in my hobbies. quit my job and
24:33
Speaker 3: just sort of got swept away, was traveling and, you know,
24:37
Speaker 3: concerts and things and dizzy with all of the resources
24:40
Speaker 3: that he had.
24:41
Speaker 2: And that was really problematic.
24:44
Speaker 3: You know, kind of rented my house and gave up
24:46
Speaker 3: everything and it just took over. And I was isolated
24:52
Speaker 3: and confused and was believing a lot of the things
24:56
Speaker 3: that I was being told. So, you know, I just
24:59
Speaker 3: found myself, I lost myself really.
25:02
Speaker 2: And it was hard because I feel like I'm a
25:04
Speaker 2: strong person.
25:04
Speaker 1: That's what I was going to say.
25:06
Speaker 2: Yeah.
25:06
Speaker 1: Like, I think a lot of people too, or look
25:09
Speaker 1: at others and say, well, she seems smart. How could
25:11
Speaker 1: she have gotten involved in a relationship that seemed so awful?
25:15
Speaker 1: And how could she be accusing... somebody of doing all
25:17
Speaker 1: these things when maybe that's for her benefit because she
25:21
Speaker 1: seems too smart to be manipulated by that. I think
25:23
Speaker 1: that's a common question of a lot of people that
25:25
Speaker 1: fall into these traps and they feel like they can't
25:28
Speaker 1: get out.
25:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are a lot of smart, we saw this
25:32
Speaker 2: with Stolen Youth. One of the people who was abused.
25:37
Speaker 3: By Larry in that cult was I think she was
25:41
Speaker 3: a doctor or she was just entering medical school or
25:43
Speaker 3: completing medical school.
25:44
Speaker 1: Is that the thing from Sarah Lawrence? Yes.
25:49
Speaker 3: And Sarma as well is so intelligent and successful. And
25:54
Speaker 3: Debbie Newell is so successful and intelligent and wonderful and gorgeous.
25:58
Speaker 3: And we see this with Men, we see this with
26:01
Speaker 3: Mark Vicente from the NXIVM cult, strong characters, really intelligent,
26:07
Speaker 3: curious people fall victim. And I even almost identified with
26:12
Speaker 3: a male being victimized in some ways because I considered
26:15
Speaker 3: myself sort of a badass and an athlete. And it,
26:18
Speaker 3: I didn't fit the profile of a victim. I wasn't
26:20
Speaker 3: sort of, you know, in, in everyone's vision, like shivering
26:24
Speaker 3: in the corner, even though I really was shivering.
26:26
Speaker 2: In the corner, I didn't like fit that narrative.
26:29
Speaker 3: And it was really hard because I thought people thought,
26:32
Speaker 3: you know, well, Vanessa, she could never be victimized.
26:34
Speaker 2: Look at her. She's fucking tough. Like there's no way.
26:37
Speaker 2: And it just doesn't work that way. I mean, you really,
26:41
Speaker 2: anyone can be victimized.
26:43
Speaker 1: And did your family, did your friends notice it and
26:47
Speaker 1: say something to you or you had to really find
26:50
Speaker 1: yourself and find some strength within yourself to leave?
26:54
Speaker 3: Some people did see it and I would bite with
26:56
Speaker 3: them because, you know, as you.
26:57
Speaker 2: Mentioned, I would be like, no, no, no. And I
26:59
Speaker 2: would sort of have his back.
27:02
Speaker 3: But a lot of people subscribe to it like I
27:05
Speaker 3: did and thought, you know, we see this with poets,
27:08
Speaker 3: priests and politicians. They can kind of kiss babies and
27:11
Speaker 3: stab you in the back. People don't know what's going
27:13
Speaker 3: on behind closed doors is the bottom line. You could
27:15
Speaker 3: have a very dangerous person in your neighborhood and they
27:19
Speaker 3: have the perfect lawn and the perfect family and.
27:22
Speaker 2: Who the hell knows what's going on.
27:23
Speaker 3: And you see The house that's maybe a little disheveled
27:25
Speaker 3: and you go, oh, probably someone crazy lives there.
27:27
Speaker 2: It is not necessarily this truth. It's, you know, people could.
27:31
Speaker 3: Be rather buttoned up and you have no idea what's
27:34
Speaker 3: going on behind closed doors.
27:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not as cut and dry as that. So
27:40
Speaker 1: I'm curious because I tend to get in relationships really quickly.
27:44
Speaker 1: Like I will, I don't like dating in general. So
27:47
Speaker 1: like I'll date who I think we might work out with.
27:50
Speaker 1: I have a pretty good idea beforehand. And then I
27:53
Speaker 1: like jump into the relationship on the first date. I'm like,
27:55
Speaker 1: oh my God, this person knows me so well. I really,
27:58
Speaker 1: you know, all that ridiculous stuff. So were you similar
28:01
Speaker 1: to that in this circumstance that it all moved very quickly?
28:04
Speaker 1: Or do you think you gave it a lot of
28:05
Speaker 1: time and you thought you knew this person? And is
28:09
Speaker 1: there a difference? I mean, do people like appear later
28:11
Speaker 1: as someone that they didn't appear at the beginning?
28:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, we, this was pretty fast and furious, but I
28:19
Speaker 3: do have clients that will be with someone for a
28:24
Speaker 3: year or two. And there tends to be a milestone
28:29
Speaker 3: that sort of triggers a change or a shift in
28:31
Speaker 3: the relationship, like an engagement, a marriage, a baby or
28:35
Speaker 3: In some way, when the stakes get higher or they
28:40
Speaker 3: own you more or they have more control over you
28:42
Speaker 3: or they notice that they have sort of a hierarchical
28:46
Speaker 3: role in your life, then they sort of turn up
28:49
Speaker 3: the dial.
28:51
Speaker 2: So it really varies. But for me, it was sort
28:53
Speaker 2: of fast and furious.
28:55
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I mean, you're. you know, in this line
28:59
Speaker 1: of work, you can confirm that that's like not the
29:01
Speaker 1: best way to get into a relationship, right? I mean,
29:04
Speaker 1: people always say you should take it slow.
29:06
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know.
29:07
Speaker 3: I have this weird sort of idea that I don't
29:10
Speaker 3: want to waste so much time. So I try to
29:13
Speaker 3: push buttons and create boundaries really quickly to sort of
29:16
Speaker 3: test them. You know, like I often joke, I read
29:20
Speaker 3: somewhere that, you know, psychopaths don't do contagious yawning. So
29:24
Speaker 3: my son and I will joke about how I'll just
29:25
Speaker 3: yawn on our first date just to be like, Oh,
29:27
Speaker 3: let's see if they, you know, so like, I'm trying
29:29
Speaker 3: to like glean the information quick and And I'm trying
29:32
Speaker 3: to like, you know, almost like they don't do well
29:35
Speaker 3: with like illness.
29:36
Speaker 2: So I'm like, we joke like, oh, I should fake
29:37
Speaker 2: a seizure to see like how they handle it, you know?
29:39
Speaker 3: Like I'm really sort of want to know sooner. So
29:43
Speaker 3: I might say no to something or push a button sometimes.
29:47
Speaker 2: So I can see how they react.
29:48
Speaker 3: I pay attention to how they treat staff and how
29:51
Speaker 3: they drive and how they walk. And, you know, cause
29:53
Speaker 3: you know, these people tend to be one uppers. So
29:55
Speaker 3: they're line cutters and they're rude to their business associates.
30:01
Speaker 3: So I try to like, you know, pay attention to
30:04
Speaker 3: all of those nuanced behaviors early on.
30:07
Speaker 1: Wait, I love what you're saying here. Cause I didn't
30:08
Speaker 1: know these things. So you're telling me somebody with narcissistic
30:11
Speaker 1: abusive tendencies doesn't like sick people.
30:15
Speaker 2: They don't do well when the fantasy is fractured.
30:18
Speaker 1: I see.
30:19
Speaker 3: So they live in a fantasy and they live in
30:21
Speaker 3: a bubble and they think, you know, um, everything has.
30:24
Speaker 2: To sort of look a certain way.
30:26
Speaker 3: So if you, you know, put your hair in a
30:29
Speaker 3: messy bun and you look a hot mess and you,
30:31
Speaker 3: you know, you have the flu, um, you will see
30:33
Speaker 3: them behave differently because they don't really want to deal
30:36
Speaker 3: with any of any, any fracturing of this fantasy.
30:39
Speaker 1: Okay. Wow. Okay. What, what are some other ones? I
30:42
Speaker 1: liked all these things. They're line cutters.
30:44
Speaker 2: Okay.
30:45
Speaker 1: I know a couple of those.
30:46
Speaker 2: What else?
30:46
Speaker 1: What else?
30:47
Speaker 3: They tend to drive very fast. They have to sort
30:51
Speaker 3: of win everything. So these are people that are extremely
30:54
Speaker 3: competitive and vindictive. So if they have to get back
30:59
Speaker 3: at somebody or they have to drive faster or cut
31:03
Speaker 3: a line, it's like these, it's almost like a child.
31:05
Speaker 3: They sort of behave as like a child, like They
31:08
Speaker 3: have to win in every little thing.
31:10
Speaker 1: Or they think they're better.
31:11
Speaker 4: Are you learning to drive? From the 1st of November, 2026,
31:14
Speaker 4: new rules will apply for learner permit holders. To get
31:18
Speaker 4: a third or fourth learner permit, you must have taken
31:21
Speaker 4: a driving test within the previous two years. After your
31:25
Speaker 4: fourth permit, or if your permit has been expired for
31:27
Speaker 4: more than two years, you will have to start the
31:30
Speaker 4: learning to drive process again. Remember, you can only drive
31:33
Speaker 4: unaccompanied if you hold a valid full driving license. Find
31:37
Speaker 4: out more at rsa.ie. A message from the Road Safety Authority.
31:41
Speaker 1: And everybody else and just, they don't, it's beneath them
31:44
Speaker 1: to stand in line maybe. Yeah.
31:46
Speaker 3: Yeah.
31:47
Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting.
31:48
Speaker 2: Okay.
31:49
Speaker 1: So, but you did end up, you know, falling enough
31:53
Speaker 1: for this person that you got engaged, correct?
31:55
Speaker 2: Yes.
31:56
Speaker 1: And was that during like this makeup phase that that
31:59
Speaker 1: happened or you were still kind of okay during those times?
32:04
Speaker 3: It kind of was, I would call it almost like
32:06
Speaker 3: a two-week cycle. There was just constantly some kind of problem.
32:10
Speaker 3: It was very volatile and chaotic and drama-filled all the time.
32:16
Speaker 2: It was fully exhausting.
32:19
Speaker 3: So I don't remember exactly if that was the case
32:21
Speaker 3: at that time in terms of the engagement, but The
32:24
Speaker 3: cycle just seemed to just spin around.
32:27
Speaker 2: It was up, down, up, down, roller coaster.
32:30
Speaker 1: And did you feel when you got engaged like this
32:32
Speaker 1: was as a makeup thing or you were like, okay, well,
32:35
Speaker 1: this will make it better and we will now be committed?
32:38
Speaker 1: Because I know, I mean, listen, I've been engaged a
32:40
Speaker 1: couple of times and I remember one time when I
32:44
Speaker 1: got engaged to this person who I shouldn't have, it
32:46
Speaker 1: was very uncomfortable and I knew it was wrong, but
32:49
Speaker 1: it was their way to sort of make up with me.
32:53
Speaker 1: And it just, it all was awful. I was nervous
32:56
Speaker 1: to tell my friends that I was engaged. I mean,
32:58
Speaker 1: all of it should have, you know, rang a lot
32:59
Speaker 1: of bells at the time, but for you, what was
33:02
Speaker 1: your experience then? Were you happy? Were you telling your family?
33:06
Speaker 3: I think I was pretty well isolated, but I think
33:09
Speaker 3: at the time I thought I was happy, I would
33:11
Speaker 3: say at that moment, you know, in time, but it
33:14
Speaker 3: wasn't real. It was, um, part of his gaining control
33:19
Speaker 3: of me. But I think at the time I thought,
33:21
Speaker 3: you know, It was a whirlwind.
33:23
Speaker 2: So I thought it was, you know.
33:24
Speaker 1: So how did you end up being able to get
33:27
Speaker 1: out and be okay? I mean, it sounds like you
33:30
Speaker 1: had a hard time and you were talking about shaking
33:32
Speaker 1: and all this stuff, but what happened at the end
33:34
Speaker 1: for you that you were able to sort of break free,
33:37
Speaker 1: whether or not you wanted to at the moment?
33:40
Speaker 3: There were a lot of demands for intimacy and And
33:45
Speaker 3: it seemed to be, it was insatiable. And I remember
33:50
Speaker 3: thinking that there was something wrong there. So I left
33:55
Speaker 3: one day, I called my girlfriend and I was like,
33:57
Speaker 3: I have to get out of here. And I fled,
34:00
Speaker 3: went to my mother's house and stayed there for three
34:03
Speaker 3: months during COVID, which was really scary. tenant wouldn't leave,
34:08
Speaker 3: even though she was not COVID affected. So I had
34:11
Speaker 3: to pay her $ 10, 000 to get.
34:12
Speaker 2: Out of my house. And I finally got home.
34:15
Speaker 3: And then it was like, I had to climb out
34:17
Speaker 3: of this hole and do a lot of healing during pandemic,
34:21
Speaker 3: which was really a gift because I had to sit
34:24
Speaker 3: in my own shit.
34:25
Speaker 2: And it you know, being alone and like trying to
34:30
Speaker 2: just cope.
34:31
Speaker 3: I mean, I developed all of these coping mechanisms, you know,
34:34
Speaker 3: just kind of candles and music and just flooding myself
34:38
Speaker 3: with like self-love. And, and I spent two years doing
34:42
Speaker 3: that before I even would think about dating.
34:46
Speaker 2: Um, and it was a gift, you know, it's, it
34:49
Speaker 2: sounds terrible.
34:49
Speaker 3: Obviously COVID was a horror for so many people, but
34:52
Speaker 3: it just, in my case personally, it was, it forced
34:54
Speaker 3: me to sit with me. Mm-hmm.
34:58
Speaker 1: And at that time, is it hard to break for you?
35:02
Speaker 1: Was it hard to break the chains of being with
35:04
Speaker 1: someone you had been with that you were engaged to? Like,
35:07
Speaker 1: how were you able to say, I'm not talking to
35:10
Speaker 1: this person anymore?
35:12
Speaker 3: I didn't really, I would say it was probably about
35:15
Speaker 3: nine days. And then I started to do a lot
35:18
Speaker 3: of research on what this was. Even just silly things
35:21
Speaker 3: like TikTok, I was learning. I was like, holy shit,
35:23
Speaker 3: I didn't even know this is a thing. Um, and
35:26
Speaker 3: I began to just study and get into the clinical
35:28
Speaker 3: work and study Sandra Brown, who refers to this relationship
35:32
Speaker 3: as a relationship of inevitable harm, which really scared me.
35:35
Speaker 3: And she actually created credentialing for, um, therapists. So there's
35:40
Speaker 3: continuing ed credits that she offers around it. And it's
35:43
Speaker 3: so clever. And it was very exciting to sort of
35:45
Speaker 3: latch onto the clinical piece, but it took a while
35:48
Speaker 3: for me to kind of un, do some of the
35:53
Speaker 3: damage that was done to my brain in terms of
35:55
Speaker 3: like the wiring. It took a while for me to
35:57
Speaker 3: even see what the truth was for a while, because
36:00
Speaker 3: I was being so well mirrored. I kept thinking I
36:04
Speaker 3: was the narcissist because they sort of are like a chameleon.
36:06
Speaker 3: They become like what you want them to be or
36:10
Speaker 3: a version of yourself. They adopt your hobbies and all
36:12
Speaker 3: of this. So it was like this enmeshment that I
36:14
Speaker 3: had to undo. But it took quite a while for
36:18
Speaker 3: me to do that. But then when I really was
36:19
Speaker 3: clear about it, I was now involved in this judicial
36:23
Speaker 3: shit where I was just being destroyed. And, you know,
36:26
Speaker 3: he told me he was going to destroy me. So
36:27
Speaker 3: it just kept on... that kept sort of living on.
36:31
Speaker 3: It wasn't easy to sever from. And a lot of
36:33
Speaker 3: my clients really can't get away. Even when they desperately
36:39
Speaker 3: almost cut their arm off to just, you know, get away, they,
36:43
Speaker 3: they tend to disallow that, um, this just hoovering and
36:47
Speaker 3: back and forth and ongoing.
36:49
Speaker 2: It's like, it just really is hard to get away from. Yeah. Yeah.
36:52
Speaker 1: And I think it's hard to get away from emotionally,
36:55
Speaker 1: but also, I mean, I think there's a financial component sometimes,
36:59
Speaker 1: like women especially have been leaning on this man for
37:05
Speaker 1: whatever financial reasons, almost like a marriage. And a lot
37:08
Speaker 1: of these are marriages, right? But they can't walk away
37:11
Speaker 1: because they're scared of who they're going to become or
37:13
Speaker 1: how they're going to fend for themselves when this person
37:16
Speaker 1: has almost created this safety net for them, which They
37:20
Speaker 1: didn't even realize was abusive, but that's how they were
37:22
Speaker 1: being held there to begin with. And I think that's
37:24
Speaker 1: really a lot of why a lot of women don't
37:27
Speaker 1: leave or people don't leave because they're so enmeshed in
37:30
Speaker 1: that person's life and the things that that person has
37:32
Speaker 1: provided for them and the threat of that being taken away.
37:37
Speaker 1: is almost to them scarier or worse than, you know,
37:40
Speaker 1: getting rid of them in general. And I think a
37:43
Speaker 1: lot of narcissistic abusers don't want to let you go.
37:46
Speaker 1: Like even though you guys may have been having some
37:49
Speaker 1: legal issues or whatever, were you also hearing from him
37:52
Speaker 1: in terms of he wanted to get back with you
37:56
Speaker 1: or apologize or make you feel better or is always
37:59
Speaker 1: at this point about pushing you down?
38:02
Speaker 3: At first, it was a little of both. But I
38:06
Speaker 3: think really for them, it's about control. They have to
38:11
Speaker 3: sort of have their foot on your throat. They don't
38:13
Speaker 3: want you to speak your truth.
38:15
Speaker 2: It scares them.
38:16
Speaker 3: We see this with Scientology and other cults where they
38:19
Speaker 3: sort of disallow you from looking at the media or
38:21
Speaker 3: the press.
38:22
Speaker 2: They want to keep you safe.
38:24
Speaker 3: Silenced so that they can continue to move forward and
38:28
Speaker 3: perpetuate this violence onto the next supply or victim. So
38:31
Speaker 3: the idea of being exposed or sharing the truth about,
38:35
Speaker 3: you know, about their bad behavior and their characteristics is
38:39
Speaker 3: horrifying for them. And so it's, it's treacherous to navigate
38:44
Speaker 3: as an advocate for victims now, because you just don't
38:50
Speaker 3: understand what they're capable of in terms of impulsivity and, and,
38:55
Speaker 3: and how dangerous they can be. So it's, I don't
38:58
Speaker 3: blame people for being afraid and sort of, you know,
39:01
Speaker 3: just sort of saving themselves and getting away as to
39:04
Speaker 3: the extent that they can, because it's really, it's scary
39:07
Speaker 3: to navigate all of the things that come with getting
39:11
Speaker 3: away from a cult leader or a narcissist.
39:18
Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Sometimes in life,
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39:30
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39:34
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39:40
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Speaker 1: at BetterHelp.com slash understood and get on your way to
40:48
Speaker 1: being your best self. How was that for you then to,
40:55
Speaker 1: you know, be trying to get away within your own
40:57
Speaker 1: personal life and what went on between the two of
41:00
Speaker 1: you guys and maybe your family or friends that knew
41:02
Speaker 1: the story, but then all of a sudden he's dating
41:05
Speaker 1: somebody else in this world of reality TV, and then
41:09
Speaker 1: your story becomes everyone's story that they want to hear about.
41:13
Speaker 1: Did that make it worse for you?
41:16
Speaker 3: I had a moment where I realized that I probably,
41:20
Speaker 3: through talking to so many of my clients and and
41:23
Speaker 3: friends and followers.
41:25
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41:56
Speaker 3: An ex of his that I was almost, it was
42:02
Speaker 3: my duty to sort of do something and speak out
42:06
Speaker 3: because they didn't have a child with him. And I thought,
42:08
Speaker 3: because I'm a clinician, I had this moment, I was like,
42:10
Speaker 3: oh God. And my son was like, mom, why don't
42:13
Speaker 3: you just, you know, move on and not do anything?
42:15
Speaker 3: I'm like, I think I have to speak out because
42:19
Speaker 3: I had this credentialing. And I had a voice and
42:23
Speaker 3: I wasn't, you know, my son was older. So I thought,
42:26
Speaker 3: you know, I don't have the vulnerability of a small
42:29
Speaker 3: child co-parenting with somebody. And I thought, oh, God, I
42:32
Speaker 3: can't really be quiet, can I? And it was very
42:36
Speaker 3: much part of my character to sort of be an
42:38
Speaker 3: advocate for a long time.
42:39
Speaker 2: So I just....
42:41
Speaker 3: I knew that it was almost like a calling that
42:43
Speaker 3: I had no choice and I was going to push forward.
42:46
Speaker 3: And that's when I sort of got the idea for
42:47
Speaker 3: the run and I sort of moved forward with advocacy
42:51
Speaker 3: because I just, I couldn't see myself, you know, doing
42:55
Speaker 3: that and being quiet about it.
42:56
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I was going to ask you about that run.
42:58
Speaker 1: You ran almost 300 miles, right? To bring awareness to
43:02
Speaker 1: narcissistic abuse. Tell me what that was like, how you
43:05
Speaker 1: came up with that idea, how long it took, all
43:07
Speaker 1: that stuff.
43:08
Speaker 3: I came up with that idea on a run randomly. Um,
43:11
Speaker 3: but we, I started talking to, cause I'm a two-time Ironman.
43:15
Speaker 3: So I was already an athlete and I started talking
43:17
Speaker 3: to some of my runner friends and my friend Bob
43:20
Speaker 3: who did Ultraman and my friend JC who's run, I
43:22
Speaker 3: don't know, over 300 marathons. And I was like, do
43:26
Speaker 3: you think I can run across New York in a
43:28
Speaker 3: wedding dress?
43:29
Speaker 2: And they were like, fuck yeah. So I was like, okay.
43:32
Speaker 3: And we just kind of, I thought the wedding dress
43:35
Speaker 3: would get attention. I thought it was sort of, you know,
43:37
Speaker 3: it was a symbol of what gets exploited, that fantasy
43:41
Speaker 3: and all of that. And I just got a team
43:44
Speaker 3: together and we just gave it a go. And it
43:47
Speaker 3: was really transformative. I have to say it was very healing.
43:49
Speaker 3: And so many people reached out to me and, you know,
43:52
Speaker 3: we're sharing their stories. I mean, it just was incredible
43:55
Speaker 3: to hear all of the people that had been victimized saying, go, go, go,
44:00
Speaker 3: you know, please, you know, I can't really speak out,
44:02
Speaker 3: but I'm just following you. And, you know, this is
44:04
Speaker 3: so amazing. And so it was, it checked a lot
44:07
Speaker 3: of boxes for me. It was healing for me. And
44:09
Speaker 3: I think people felt validated in seeing it. So it
44:12
Speaker 3: was great.
44:13
Speaker 1: Was it a consecutive run or you did different states
44:15
Speaker 1: or how did it work? And did you run with
44:17
Speaker 1: people by yourself? I saw videos of you by yourself,
44:20
Speaker 1: but I'm assuming some people wanted to join in.
44:23
Speaker 3: It was 285 miles from Oswego to Manhattan. So it
44:28
Speaker 3: was from the tip of New York down to Manhattan
44:32
Speaker 3: and it was great. So it was something like 25
44:35
Speaker 3: miles a day for 11 days. I don't know the math,
44:38
Speaker 3: but we did approximately a marathon a day for 11 days.
44:42
Speaker 3: And then we did subsequently do New Jersey, which was
44:46
Speaker 3: only 60 miles, and then Connecticut, which was only 60 miles.
44:49
Speaker 2: And I think we're going to try to do Florida
44:50
Speaker 2: next year. I did mostly run alone.
44:53
Speaker 3: Some people joined me here, there and everywhere virtually and
44:56
Speaker 3: also in person. And I want to try to, you know,
44:58
Speaker 3: kind of get a relay going and pass the baton.
45:01
Speaker 3: I do have some injuries now, so I'm getting older
45:03
Speaker 3: and I don't really want to keep doing it.
45:05
Speaker 2: It was particularly hot in Connecticut this year. I was like, oh,
45:08
Speaker 2: it's such bullshit. It's so hard. So I would love.
45:11
Speaker 3: To sort of get other people and kind of like
45:13
Speaker 3: gift this, you know, concept to someone else and sort
45:16
Speaker 3: of let some others know. do it, but you know,
45:18
Speaker 3: it's logistically challenging, but we, you know, we'll continue to
45:22
Speaker 3: do what we can.
45:23
Speaker 1: Yeah. That was great. And people donated to the cause
45:26
Speaker 1: or how did other people get involved?
45:29
Speaker 3: There were donations accepted for teletherapist.org, which is my nonprofit.
45:34
Speaker 3: And we are working towards a few different things, an app,
45:38
Speaker 3: potentially even opening up a center. We have found that
45:41
Speaker 3: the domestic violence centers don't really do such a great
45:44
Speaker 3: job of describing the vernacular that helps to validate victims.
45:49
Speaker 3: So it would be like if you went to the
45:51
Speaker 3: hospital and someone said, you're sick, you would say, well,
45:53
Speaker 3: what do I have? So they don't really use the
45:56
Speaker 3: language that we think helps. So we're sort of working
46:01
Speaker 3: towards a few different things, but it went to the nonprofit.
46:04
Speaker 1: That's great. So can you just go over really quickly
46:07
Speaker 1: the positive things? Like what are the signs of a
46:10
Speaker 1: healthy relationship or what should you be looking for or
46:13
Speaker 1: trying to create to establish a healthy relationship in your opinion?
46:18
Speaker 2: I think a.
46:18
Speaker 3: Healthy relationship is a relationship where you can be yourself
46:22
Speaker 3: and you don't have to live alone. with any of
46:25
Speaker 3: those falsities or the fantasy lifestyle that others sort of
46:29
Speaker 3: are perpetuating. I think somebody who is able to be
46:33
Speaker 3: vulnerable and truthful, like for me, I will share in
46:38
Speaker 3: my experience about my trauma. I think it's somebody who
46:43
Speaker 3: is sort of not telling you things that are confusing.
46:49
Speaker 3: So if you find yourself in confusing conversations like gaslighting,
46:53
Speaker 3: as I mentioned, that's a bad thing. So somebody who's
46:56
Speaker 3: sort of matter of fact and fluid in their communication
46:59
Speaker 3: or somebody who's a good communicator, um, somebody who has
47:05
Speaker 3: maybe their own lifestyle, somebody who has hobbies of their own,
47:09
Speaker 3: they don't adopt yours and kind of get involved so
47:13
Speaker 3: much in your experience. It's almost like you want to
47:16
Speaker 3: be on the same, in the same direction on two
47:19
Speaker 3: different paths. Somebody who doesn't tell you that they need you,
47:25
Speaker 3: you know, that they're just very fulfilled in their own
47:28
Speaker 3: life and you are fulfilled in your own life.
47:31
Speaker 2: And then you kind of add value to each other.
47:33
Speaker 3: Right.
47:34
Speaker 1: Like they become an asset almost instead of a liability
47:38
Speaker 1: in your life.
47:39
Speaker 2: Somebody who has empathy.
47:40
Speaker 3: One of the ways that I sort of assess for
47:43
Speaker 3: empathy is I might... ask them about if they've ever
47:48
Speaker 3: been in love or if they have a beloved pet
47:52
Speaker 3: from childhood or ask them about a time where maybe
47:56
Speaker 3: they were upset about something and they share whether they've
48:00
Speaker 3: cried and.
48:00
Speaker 2: What that was about.
48:02
Speaker 3: The sort of ground zero for the narcissist is a
48:06
Speaker 3: lack of empathy. So the biggest red flag is a
48:09
Speaker 3: lack of empathy. So looking for somebody who expresses empathy and, um,
48:13
Speaker 3: cause sometimes they can fake it. So you really have
48:15
Speaker 3: to be really careful. I mean, these, these people can
48:18
Speaker 3: be really good actors. We see this a lot in
48:20
Speaker 3: Hollywood actually, where they can kind of put on the
48:23
Speaker 3: waterworks and all, you know, it's like, so you have
48:25
Speaker 3: to be really careful about what empathy actually looks like
48:29
Speaker 3: and how they experience empathy.
48:31
Speaker 2: Um, So yeah, those are some.
48:34
Speaker 3: Of the things, somebody who is always the same person
48:37
Speaker 3: behind closed doors and in front of others, right? They
48:40
Speaker 3: don't change their personality, doesn't shift. It's not like, oh,
48:44
Speaker 3: they get home and they can be a shithead. It's like,
48:46
Speaker 3: you know, you're always this person all the time.
48:48
Speaker 1: Yeah.
48:50
Speaker 3: I think somebody who is consistent would be a good
48:54
Speaker 3: green flag.
48:55
Speaker 1: Yeah.
48:56
Speaker 2: Okay.
48:56
Speaker 1: That's really helpful. I think those are good things to
48:59
Speaker 1: look out for. And just out of curiosity, is it
49:02
Speaker 1: hard for you now to trust people and, I mean,
49:06
Speaker 1: just even friends, that why they're coming in your life?
49:08
Speaker 1: I mean, reality TV has taken over so many people's
49:13
Speaker 1: lives in a way that I think is unhealthy almost.
49:15
Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that, you know, everybody was talking
49:17
Speaker 1: about Vanderpump Rules and the scandal from that. and like
49:20
Speaker 1: making that like the top story, even in the New
49:22
Speaker 1: York Times, I thought was nuts. I thought the level
49:25
Speaker 1: of bullying that went on in that trio there and
49:29
Speaker 1: then all the friends that jumped on to In my opinion,
49:34
Speaker 1: it looked like they were so triggered by things that
49:37
Speaker 1: they had gone through or going on in their own
49:38
Speaker 1: lives and just took it out on other people. I
49:43
Speaker 1: just thought it was so inappropriate. And I thought it
49:45
Speaker 1: was really unsafe for people to witness that. And then
49:48
Speaker 1: people watching to jump on that. And really, to me,
49:52
Speaker 1: that was abusive. Everything that went on. Obviously... In a
49:56
Speaker 1: cheating scandal, you know, that's something that affects a lot
49:59
Speaker 1: of people. But really, in reality, that affected those three people.
50:03
Speaker 1: And the fact that the whole world got to, like,
50:04
Speaker 1: express their anger and emotion, I thought was really... unhealthy,
50:08
Speaker 1: especially for Raquel who, you know, if something ever happened
50:12
Speaker 1: to her, I mean, who, who takes responsibility for that?
50:14
Speaker 1: Is that Bravo? Is that the, you know, the people
50:17
Speaker 1: that are, you know, sitting there calling her moron and
50:19
Speaker 1: a whore and all these things. I mean, those are,
50:22
Speaker 1: those are really awful words that stick with you forever,
50:24
Speaker 1: you know, and obviously she feels bad about a mistake
50:26
Speaker 1: that she made, but so anyways, to go back, I
50:29
Speaker 1: just think that what's gone on in reality TV is
50:31
Speaker 1: so nuts. So I'm curious if it's hard for you
50:33
Speaker 1: because I people may want to befriend you or even
50:38
Speaker 1: date you for those reasons because they think you're involved
50:41
Speaker 1: in that.
50:42
Speaker 2: It was very hard for me to trust people.
50:44
Speaker 3: I lost a lot of friends after this happened because
50:47
Speaker 3: it was, well, nothing happened to me. And so that
50:50
Speaker 3: was really hard for me. I lost a lot of friends,
50:53
Speaker 3: but it was also silver lining because I really, when
50:55
Speaker 3: I really looked around and I saw who was true
50:58
Speaker 3: blue and, It was such a gift and it's so
51:01
Speaker 3: liberating to not have to put on airs or anything
51:03
Speaker 3: like that. But I love what you're saying about bullying,
51:06
Speaker 3: because that is the whole point of my work is that,
51:10
Speaker 3: you know, people are so unkind and empathy is something
51:15
Speaker 3: that we need to get back into.
51:17
Speaker 2: Dr.
51:17
Speaker 3: Romney, who's a dear friend of mine now talks about
51:19
Speaker 3: this in her book, don't you know who I am?
51:22
Speaker 3: And we have really lost touch with being decent and
51:25
Speaker 3: kind and careful. And so it's like social media and
51:27
Speaker 3: the bullying that goes on. I mean, The things people
51:30
Speaker 3: have said to me, the things people that I watch
51:33
Speaker 3: say to others in the reality TV, it is horrifying
51:38
Speaker 3: to see how people talk to each other. I mean,
51:42
Speaker 3: I would never, I might, might could think something right.
51:44
Speaker 3: I might could think something really disgusting, but I would
51:47
Speaker 3: never just get, take to a keyboard and be like,
51:49
Speaker 3: you know, I, it's so gross to see how people
51:53
Speaker 3: behave and we really need to sort of get back
51:55
Speaker 3: into that Sesame street mindset and kind of like practice.
51:58
Speaker 2: Love a little bit more.
51:59
Speaker 3: I mean, it, that would be the one thing that
52:02
Speaker 3: I think, um, I share with a lot of my
52:04
Speaker 3: colleagues in this space, which is that, you know, we
52:07
Speaker 3: don't really cultivate the love and empathy anymore that we
52:11
Speaker 3: really should.
52:12
Speaker 2: People have lost that.
52:13
Speaker 3: They're just out there in this individualistic capitalistic society, bullying
52:17
Speaker 3: and pushing for resources.
52:19
Speaker 2: And it's, it's really gross.
52:21
Speaker 1: And actually that brings up another question from what you
52:23
Speaker 1: were just talking about. I'm curious if you had to
52:26
Speaker 1: be a sort of deal with victim shaming from all
52:29
Speaker 1: the people that are obsessed with that other side, right?
52:32
Speaker 1: With the people who are fans of, you know, those two,
52:36
Speaker 1: did they try and victim shame you and blame you and.
52:39
Speaker 2: Be nasty to you?
52:41
Speaker 3: I I've gotten a lot of messages that are just brutal.
52:45
Speaker 3: Like you old hag, you know, like just kind of,
52:49
Speaker 3: it reminds me of some of those, um, what is it?
52:53
Speaker 2: Jimmy Fallon does the tweets. When you read the tweets,
52:55
Speaker 2: it's funny.
52:56
Speaker 3: Like the things people say, like somebody said to me,
52:59
Speaker 3: you know, I wouldn't even trust her to do my laundry.
53:03
Speaker 2: And my new boyfriend was like, well, that's funny because
53:05
Speaker 2: like you do really good laundry. And I was like,
53:08
Speaker 2: thank you.
53:08
Speaker 3: And it began this whole conversation about laundry is so
53:11
Speaker 3: stupid and innocuous, but.
53:12
Speaker 1: But the things people say are just so ridiculous just
53:15
Speaker 1: because they think it's going to hurt you and like
53:17
Speaker 1: put you in a corner, sucking your thumb. And you're like, wait, what?
53:21
Speaker 1: But somebody recently told me that you have to think
53:25
Speaker 1: of that as like a fan club. Like all the
53:27
Speaker 1: people that you live in their head, just call them
53:29
Speaker 1: your fans because, you know, it's just so ridiculous and
53:33
Speaker 1: you're not thinking about them, but they are obsessed with
53:35
Speaker 1: how they can tear you down.
53:37
Speaker 2: So.
53:37
Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, but those comments of like you old hag
53:40
Speaker 1: and you're so ugly and you know, you would never
53:43
Speaker 1: be worthy of.
53:43
Speaker 2: Blah, blah, blah.
53:44
Speaker 1: It's like, you gotta laugh at that. It's like, who
53:47
Speaker 1: are you to be commenting? You know?
53:49
Speaker 2: So, um, anyway, I try not to let it get
53:51
Speaker 2: to me.
53:52
Speaker 3: I mean, Some things are kind of below the belt,
53:55
Speaker 3: you know, and I really feel offended for a lot
53:59
Speaker 3: of the victims and people who get victimized shouldn't have
54:04
Speaker 3: to deal with that.
54:05
Speaker 2: So it is kind of gross.
54:06
Speaker 1: Yeah.
54:12
Speaker 3: You know, just stay quiet. You don't have to, I mean,
54:14
Speaker 3: it's just gross. Like if you know me and you
54:16
Speaker 3: don't like me.
54:16
Speaker 2: That's fine.
54:18
Speaker 1: I totally agree, which by the way, is why I
54:20
Speaker 1: chose to have the show because so many people would,
54:22
Speaker 1: you know, made assumptions about me or other people that
54:27
Speaker 1: where the media has sort of narrated their story. And
54:29
Speaker 1: in my opinion, I really felt like, listen, if I
54:32
Speaker 1: put myself out there and people choose to not like me,
54:36
Speaker 1: It's fair game. Totally fine. But you know, if it's
54:38
Speaker 1: based on what other people are writing or facts and
54:41
Speaker 1: news articles that people are writing, that's not okay with me.
54:44
Speaker 1: I want to be able to tell my own story.
54:46
Speaker 1: I want to be able to share who I am.
54:48
Speaker 1: And I believe that people will be on my side
54:50
Speaker 1: and like me. And if they don't, I totally get
54:52
Speaker 1: that too. Like that's cool. I'm not for everyone. Just like,
54:55
Speaker 1: you know, everyone has their opinion on who they want
54:57
Speaker 1: to be friends with. So I get that. But I
54:59
Speaker 1: think it's really important to tell your story. I think
55:01
Speaker 1: it's important to stand on your own two feet, be brave.
55:05
Speaker 1: Everyone has a reason for doing something because of what
55:07
Speaker 1: they've gone through. And I think people need to be
55:09
Speaker 1: more empathetic and realize that everyone is suffering in some
55:13
Speaker 1: way in their own head. And they just would love
55:16
Speaker 1: to have people that are on their side or at
55:19
Speaker 1: least let them go through it as opposed to pushing
55:21
Speaker 1: them down. Because we have our own insecurities that we
55:24
Speaker 1: get on ourselves for. So it's harder to hear it
55:27
Speaker 1: from other people. you know?
55:28
Speaker 2: Yeah.
55:29
Speaker 3: I hope that, you know, we can kind of make
55:30
Speaker 3: a change and people can start to be less judgmental. Um,
55:34
Speaker 3: somebody's going through something. You just don't know what anybody's
55:37
Speaker 3: dealing with on any given day.
55:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. So you did mention there that you
55:41
Speaker 1: are seeing somebody new. Was that hard to get into
55:44
Speaker 1: a new relationship and be able to trust or how's
55:46
Speaker 1: that going?
55:47
Speaker 3: It took me three years. Um, so it was like,
55:51
Speaker 3: I know, and it's still scary. I'm still, you know,
55:55
Speaker 3: I still get super triggered. Um, and have PTSD. I
55:59
Speaker 3: was diagnosed with PTSD when I was 25 from other things, but, um,
56:04
Speaker 3: this was, it's, it is particularly challenging. I have clients
56:08
Speaker 3: that have been victimized upwards of five times, you know,
56:10
Speaker 3: these beautiful wealthy women come into my, um, session and
56:15
Speaker 3: I'm just thinking, Oh, here we go. Cause you could
56:17
Speaker 3: see just the, the, you could see they could, the
56:20
Speaker 3: potential for them to be victimized. Um, but I'm just
56:22
Speaker 3: trying to, figured out myself. I don't have all the answers.
56:26
Speaker 3: I try to be mindful and careful and trust myself.
56:29
Speaker 3: And I try to put all of my trusted friends
56:32
Speaker 3: eyes on it too. So sort of, uh, they, they,
56:34
Speaker 3: you know, they, they're paying attention. So there's sort of
56:36
Speaker 3: an army of us that's going to disallow, you know,
56:38
Speaker 3: that from happening, hopefully.
56:40
Speaker 1: That's great. So I wish you the best of luck
56:42
Speaker 1: in that.
56:43
Speaker 2: Um, all right.
56:43
Speaker 1: So now tell people where they can find you, where,
56:46
Speaker 1: if they want to hire you, they can, you know, um,
56:48
Speaker 1: find you on online, whatever it is. Sure.
56:52
Speaker 3: So you can find my psychotherapy services at tell a therapist.net.
56:59
Speaker 3: I have two clinicians that work under me that specialize
57:02
Speaker 3: in narcissistic abuse and two other clinicians. We are, I
57:07
Speaker 3: am licensed in four States, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts,
57:10
Speaker 3: and Florida.
57:11
Speaker 2: And then I have a nonprofit teletherapist.org.
57:14
Speaker 1: Great. And do I just out of curiosity, do you
57:17
Speaker 1: do work with people that are suffering from issues with codependence?
57:20
Speaker 1: I feel like that's, something that is very similar and
57:23
Speaker 1: people do, I feel like that's a really important thing
57:26
Speaker 1: for people to sort of work on.
57:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
57:30
Speaker 3: So that would be a conversation around people-pleasing, approval-seeking stuff
57:36
Speaker 3: that we talked about. So very in line with the
57:39
Speaker 3: cognitive behavioral therapy, where we kind of develop that strong
57:43
Speaker 3: sense of self so that you kind of step into
57:45
Speaker 3: your power.
57:46
Speaker 2: There's a little bit of a life coaching.
57:47
Speaker 3: Component to a lot of the work that we do
57:49
Speaker 3: because we understand that power and autonomy... um, is a
57:54
Speaker 3: way to get away from these kinds of toxic relationships
57:57
Speaker 3: and developing boundaries and understanding where boundaries start, which is
58:00
Speaker 3: basically with you less about what you don't want, but
58:04
Speaker 3: what you really do want sort of starting there.
58:07
Speaker 2: So yeah, codependency is something that, um, we can definitely
58:10
Speaker 2: help you with.
58:10
Speaker 1: And do you get into love addiction, sex addiction, all
58:14
Speaker 1: those things as well?
58:15
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
58:16
Speaker 3: Um, Addiction to attention is something that so many people
58:22
Speaker 3: have a hard time with, certainly with social media. So again,
58:26
Speaker 3: dealing with like this radical self-love and sort of nurturing
58:30
Speaker 3: yourself and certainly with trauma, we want to almost just
58:34
Speaker 3: like practice that. forgiving yourself and being kind to yourself,
58:39
Speaker 3: almost like overdoing it.
58:41
Speaker 2: We get into a lot of almost like life coaching
58:43
Speaker 2: a little bit.
58:44
Speaker 1: Okay. I love that. And I think people really, there's
58:47
Speaker 1: a stigma with love addiction or sex addiction and people
58:50
Speaker 1: don't think that's a real thing. I truly believe in it.
58:52
Speaker 1: I've you know, gone through it myself. I've been in
58:55
Speaker 1: rehab for it. Um, and I went on tour with Dr.
58:59
Speaker 1: Drew to discuss it, um, and bring awareness to it
59:02
Speaker 1: because in my opinion, that is where a lot of
59:05
Speaker 1: other addictions, stem from because people aren't dealing with, you know,
59:10
Speaker 1: this need to replace sort of intensity for love. Like
59:15
Speaker 1: they get them mixed up and people, you know, it
59:19
Speaker 1: really becomes hard to function sometimes. And then you go
59:21
Speaker 1: on all these tangents and you get into other forms
59:24
Speaker 1: of addiction that are more tangible. But again, like we
59:26
Speaker 1: were talking about before, love addiction and sex addiction are
59:29
Speaker 1: not things that are necessarily tangible where you can say,
59:32
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I'm smoking a pipe, you know, so it,
59:34
Speaker 1: but it can affect your life. It's really debilitating to
59:37
Speaker 1: a lot of people and gets them down a path
59:39
Speaker 1: where they end up quitting their job and losing their
59:42
Speaker 1: job and losing their friends, losing their kids. So it's
59:45
Speaker 1: really dangerous. I think it's great that you focus on that.
59:47
Speaker 1: So anyone struggling with anything similar to what we've been
59:50
Speaker 1: talking about, definitely reach out to Vanessa, even just to
59:53
Speaker 1: get some information on where you can go from here.
59:55
Speaker 1: I think that's really important. And what's your Instagram too?
59:59
Speaker 1: So people can find you there.
1:00:00
Speaker 3: Sure.
1:00:01
Speaker 2: It's at VanessaRiserLCSW. Okay.
1:00:04
Speaker 1: And then if you're, are you going to consider doing
1:00:06
Speaker 1: another run this year or?
1:00:08
Speaker 3: I think we're going to do a run next year,
1:00:10
Speaker 3: maybe October in Florida. So we'll try to traverse the skinniest.
1:00:14
Speaker 2: Part of Florida.
1:00:15
Speaker 1: Amazing.
1:00:16
Speaker 2: Okay.
1:00:16
Speaker 1: Well, I live in Florida now, so we'll have to
1:00:18
Speaker 1: keep in touch and maybe I'll do a little running
1:00:20
Speaker 1: with you. I can't really run to the corner and back,
1:00:22
Speaker 1: but maybe I'll, I have a whole year to train.
1:00:24
Speaker 1: So we'll look forward to that. Well, thank you so
1:00:26
Speaker 1: much for your time. Anything else you want to go
1:00:28
Speaker 1: over before we end here?
1:00:30
Speaker 2: No, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Okay.
1:00:33
Speaker 1: I wish you the best. And I really appreciate everything
1:00:36
Speaker 1: that you're doing for this. And I love watching you
1:00:39
Speaker 1: on Instagram and seeing your messages. I think it's really important.
1:00:42
Speaker 1: So I'm glad that we were able to connect. Thank
1:00:54
Speaker 1: you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host,
1:00:57
Speaker 1: Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show
1:00:59
Speaker 1: and give us a five-star rating and review. You can
1:01:02
Speaker 1: support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash
1:01:06
Speaker 1: misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel. Do you have ideas for the
1:01:09
Speaker 1: show or want to reach out? Email us at infomisunderstoodpodcast
1:01:14
Speaker 1: at gmail.com. That's spelled M-I-S-S understood. Thank you so much,
1:01:19
Speaker 1: and I'll see you next time.
1:01:20
Speaker 3: Misunderstood.
1:01:26
Speaker 5: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
1:01:28
Speaker 5: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
1:01:34
Speaker 5: before bed. Or two, you know. Nobody's watching.
1:01:40
Speaker 2: You deserve a treat.
1:01:44
Speaker 5: With eight flavours to choose from, you can choose the
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Speaker 5: flavour you favour with Cadbury Dairy Milk.