Latest / Skin Anarchy / Dr Muneeb Shah, DO (Doctorly) Exclusive Interview

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Dr Muneeb Shah, DO (Doctorly) Exclusive Interview · Skin Anarchy

0:01
SPEAKER_00: Diablo 4 has arrived.
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0:20
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0:22
SPEAKER_00: Diablo 4.
0:23
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0:25
SPEAKER_00: Tap the banner or visit this episode's page to learn more.
0:30
SPEAKER_03: Hey guys, so before the episode starts, I wanted to hop in and give you by some of my favorites that I have been loving, especially for the winter.
0:39
SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, I my goal is always to like eventually, like when the products start working for my skin or I start seeing a difference.
0:47
SPEAKER_03: That's when I try to get on here and tell you what is working.
0:51
SPEAKER_03: So um basically right now my skin has been super simple.
0:55
SPEAKER_03: I have been loving the products that I've been using because they don't really require me to go outside of that box.
1:01
SPEAKER_03: And so it's simple.
1:02
SPEAKER_03: Um I'm right now I'm really enjoying Amion.
1:05
SPEAKER_03: It's a new line that I discovered um about a month ago, like a month, a month and a half ago, I think.
1:12
SPEAKER_03: And it's called A-M-E-O-N, and you can look them up, and it's wonderful because they have this amazing serum ice cubes, and those ice cubes just pop them in the freezer, just like normal ice cubes, and they freeze down these little tiny square, you know, pieces of ice, and you rub them all over your face and serum.
1:31
SPEAKER_03: So it's really nice when you're going through like a hot pot or if you're going through, you know, anything with like irritation on your skin.
1:38
SPEAKER_03: So like, you know, especially I know in winter things get so dry and we're using all those actives and we're using things like retinol, things are bound to get red, likey irritated, so these are really nice, and I found them to be really great for the way.
1:53
SPEAKER_03: Now the next thing is the only serum I'm using right now is the serum.
1:58
SPEAKER_03: I know I mentioned this one on my episode with um play met score, but this serum has really like changed my entire skin to routine.
2:07
SPEAKER_03: The way my skin looks, it's evened out a lot of the underlying hyperpigmentation I never realized I had because I'm looking over like older photos of myself and I'm realizing like we can have an evenness in our skin tone and not see it immediately.
2:22
SPEAKER_03: But then when it's corrected, you start to see the it's really a serum that's packed with nutrients.
2:27
SPEAKER_03: That's the best way I can sum up this screen for you guys.
2:30
SPEAKER_03: It's packed with nutrients, of which it's made in small batches, and it comes from all of those herbs and um things that people have been using in the area known as the purple crescent.
2:41
SPEAKER_03: So, um, you know, long story short, great serum.
2:44
SPEAKER_03: Um, and then one moisturizer I've been obsessed with is palm and hair.
2:49
SPEAKER_03: It's K-H-A-L-M.
2:53
SPEAKER_03: And I am usually not a person that gravitates towards like matte anything.
2:58
SPEAKER_03: Um, you know, especially since I hit my 30s, but I have been really loving this because the moisturizer is like supposed to help like keep a matte appearance to your skin.
3:09
SPEAKER_03: But really, for me, what it does is just maintain a really healthy looking skin.
3:14
SPEAKER_03: Like I don't get excessively oily, but I don't get dry.
3:17
SPEAKER_03: My skin doesn't look dry or flaky or anything.
3:19
SPEAKER_03: So loving that moisturizer.
3:21
SPEAKER_03: Check out those products.
3:22
SPEAKER_03: I promise you guys love them.
3:24
SPEAKER_03: I would not recommend anything on the show.
3:27
SPEAKER_03: That is not absolutely phenomenal.
3:29
SPEAKER_03: So stay tuned.
3:30
SPEAKER_03: I hope you love this uh interview with Dr.
3:32
SPEAKER_03: Shaw.
3:32
SPEAKER_03: He is awesome, and I had a great time interviewing him.
3:36
SPEAKER_03: Thanks, guys.
3:52
SPEAKER_03: Hi guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
3:55
SPEAKER_03: I'm so excited about our guest today because he is a mega superstar when it comes to social media.
4:01
SPEAKER_03: I know all of you have seen his content.
4:03
SPEAKER_03: Um, and if you have not, then you are really missing out.
4:06
SPEAKER_03: Um most of you know him as Dr.
4:08
SPEAKER_03: Lee on YouTube or TikTok or Instagram.
4:11
SPEAKER_03: Um, and you know, I'm just so honored that he had the time to come on the show.
4:15
SPEAKER_03: So welcome to the show, Dr.
4:17
SPEAKER_03: Maneeb Shah.
4:19
SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm so excited that you're here, and I would love to get started um on a topic that I kind of wanted to talk to you about, and that was the idea that you had switched your residencies.
4:30
SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, it's match season right now, so I would love for you to speak on that and talk about your career and how you ended up in medicine specifically for mental.
4:39
SPEAKER_01: And continued with science for a long time.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: So I actually went to undergrad, didn't know what I wanted to do.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: I have no physicians in my family, you know.
4:49
SPEAKER_01: My family is more like tech background, business background, things like that.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: And I essentially fell in love with biology, like the science of it, and then how that applied to like the human body, like studying cells and how that manifested in humans.
5:03
SPEAKER_01: Like that was really fascinating to me.
5:05
SPEAKER_01: And so what I ended up doing was I was like, I'm gonna go to med school, but I didn't really like know what that meant or what that entailed.
5:12
SPEAKER_01: And I didn't go in with the mindset of like I'm gonna do a particular specialty, which some people do, right?
5:17
SPEAKER_01: My wife, for one, like she wanted to be an OBGYN like since she was a kid, like, and so she went to medical school with the idea of like, I'm gonna be an OBGYN.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: And for me, I went to med school because I loved science.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then basically what happened in med school was I studied really hard.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: My goal was just to be the best possible physician that I could be.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: I felt like if I didn't know something, that it would be a disservice to my patients.
5:42
SPEAKER_01: And so like I spent most of med school just studying and ended up falling in love with radiology because it's very science heavy, very tech heavy, and it requires you to know everything about the human body because it's one of the few fields where like you read imaging from every specialty.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: So, like neurosurgery is gonna call you and say, like, what did you see on this CT of the brain?
6:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, pulmonology is gonna call you and say, What did you see in the lungs?
6:04
SPEAKER_01: And so you end up being a consultant for all of the consultants.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: So, like, you know, radiologists they call the doctor's doctor.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: So I really like that aspect of it.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: And then when I became a resident and trained in radiology, I realized for me, without the human component and connecting with people and seeing them do better, that I just didn't find purpose in it.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: And so I pivoted to to dermatology because I wanted that human connection, and uh, it was the best choice of my life, and I've never looked back.
6:31
SPEAKER_03: No, I I love that I love that you uh, you know, actually made that point, is that you're right, it's uh radiology is such an important field, but you yeah, you don't get that one-on-one, you know, interaction enough, and you don't, yeah.
6:43
SPEAKER_03: I I'm that's really interesting to me, you know.
6:46
SPEAKER_03: Just I'm I'm sitting here geeking out over it, thinking, you know, because I couldn't imagine the all the in the stress of switching residencies and you know, all the jazz.
6:54
SPEAKER_03: So did you have like any hurdles you had to really kind of get through that were annoying, or was it pretty smooth?
6:59
SPEAKER_01: Switching is a challenge.
7:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh, there's so much that goes into it.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people don't realize like in medicine, once you train in something, it's hard to go train in something else.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: There's funding issues, like someone has to fund your position, it's usually funded by the government.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of loopholes, and then you have to leave a job where you don't have time to like do interviews and things like that.
7:18
SPEAKER_01: But um, the biggest obstacle essentially was like trying to find a dermatology position and the concern that, because it's a very competitive field to get into um to try to find uh a spot essentially.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: But I applied, I got super lucky because when I was in medical school, I had met a lot of people that kind of ended up vouching for me unintentionally.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: I didn't realize that these people would come back and say, like, I we knew Dr.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: Shaw in medical school.
7:44
SPEAKER_01: He was a great medical student.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: He wasn't interested in dermatology at the time, but we think he would be great at this.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: And they ended up kind of putting their reputation on the line to give me a chance.
7:52
SPEAKER_01: So I'm very grateful for all of those people.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: And then my program actually in radiology was super supportive.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: They went out of their way, they wrote letters, they did everything to keep me, which I thought was super sweet.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: And but they were like, you know, if this is not where your passion is, we'll support you.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: And so I think a lot of residents who do want to switch specialties, they're always concerned that they'll get like blackballed by their programs.
8:15
SPEAKER_01: But I think a lot of people are more understanding than you realize.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: You know, they want you to be happy.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: Sure, you're kind of leaving them high and dry in a way that like now they don't have a position covered, but at the same time, they they don't want you there if you if you don't want to be there.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: And and like my program was so supportive, and I'm like very grateful for them and for the people that took a chance on me to train in dermatology.
8:35
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
8:36
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for elaborating on that.
8:38
SPEAKER_03: And you know, I'm by the way, I just want to say, yeah, radiology isn't the easiest to get into either.
8:44
SPEAKER_03: So you're like a superstar.
8:46
SPEAKER_03: So everyone listening, uh you know, so you you know, you just match into a really competitive uh residency and then also re you know, connected.
8:53
SPEAKER_03: So it's huge, and I I'm very impressed, and that's amazing.
8:56
SPEAKER_03: So I wanted to highlight that about you because I just found it to be so interesting.
9:01
SPEAKER_03: You have a medical background, right?
9:02
SPEAKER_03: You're a doctor, am I right?
9:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he went from one residency that's really competitive to another one, and he's killing it in this new one.
9:10
SPEAKER_03: And I was like, I have to get that on air because no one gets that, right?
9:14
SPEAKER_03: No one steps into our world, you know, to look at all the shit we have to go through as doctors.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: It's well, the thing is, like a lot of people there, there are so many people along the way that pave the way for us, you know, and it's even in my social media endeavors, like there are just so many people that like helped me get where I am.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: And so it's like you see, like the finished polished version of like who I am, but there's just so many people I'm grateful for that like every day I think like if this person wasn't in my life and didn't take a chance on me, like that one person or that one instant or that one moment, like I wouldn't be doing what I am today.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: So I just think about that all the time, like the butterfly effect of the world, you know.
9:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I and I especially right now, everyone's going through match right now, by the way.
10:00
SPEAKER_03: That's why I really wanted to focus.
10:01
SPEAKER_03: So if there's anyone listening, if you're in med school, you're waiting for your residency or whatever, you know, I hope you take Dr.
10:07
SPEAKER_03: Shaw's words, um, you know, and really think on them and just hang in there, you're gonna make it.
10:13
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
10:13
SPEAKER_01: But we just interviewed some people for match, and like we finished our interview process and we're creating our rank list right now for candidates.
10:21
SPEAKER_01: But I always tell people, like, you know, whatever is meant to happen will happen, but like you gotta believe in yourself.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: And like if it doesn't work out perfect the first time, you could be like me and you could switch.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, but like whatever's meant to be is like ends up working out well for people.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: So it seems like a such an important moment, and it is, but like it always works out for the best for everybody I've known.
10:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I same here, and I and I and I love that we spent some time and talked about that, but I want to talk about your amazing content because you are one of the I think maybe three dermatologists, you derangelo, and like there's always like one person I'm interchanging.
10:57
SPEAKER_03: I always watch on TikTok.
11:00
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
11:01
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
11:02
SPEAKER_03: I appreciate that.
11:03
SPEAKER_03: And on your before just listening in, and um, you're so good at explaining things, and I really want you to talk about how you got into this um this you know channel of becoming more prominent on social media and like the teaching aspect, because um, you know, I don't think a lot of people understand how difficult it is to not only know medicine, but then also to be able to teach it in such a way that you're engaging people.
11:26
SPEAKER_03: So I would love for you to talk about that journey and um the things that you really love about dermatology that um you love speaking on, you love educating on.
11:34
SPEAKER_03: Um, if you want to share some.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, this me getting on social media was sort of accidental.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, I started to create TikTok content primarily just because I like the creative aspect of making video, and we were kind of talking about that earlier, the this idea of video creation.
11:49
SPEAKER_01: Like I find it to be like a very creative outlet for me.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: And when I first started making videos, I think this is really important for anybody who's want interested in becoming a content creator or somebody who's a doctor that maybe wants to look at creating content for their patients.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: I made content thinking nobody was watching it.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I know there's like a lot of anxiety when people are starting to create content.
12:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, what are people gonna think?
12:12
SPEAKER_01: What are they gonna say?
12:13
SPEAKER_01: Like, how are they gonna interpret it?
12:15
SPEAKER_01: I I made content for fun, for my own fun and passion and to be creative.
12:21
SPEAKER_01: And I never thought in my wildest dreams that it would turn into what it's turned into.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: And so for anyone out there, like I would say that the main thing is like just make things that you think are important that the world needs to see, and don't worry about who's watching, because like if it comes from a good place, people will receive it in a good place.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: And so I started to create content, the video started going viral, and I realized like I had a moment where my program director who told me essentially, like, listen, you could spend your whole life seeing patients every day, 30 patients a day, forever and ever.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: And you would never reach the number of people you can on social media.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: And so if you have a gift to deliver this information to people, like you need to take advantage of that and try to reach these people that may not be able to see a dermatologist.
13:05
SPEAKER_01: And so I started to take it very seriously.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: Like, my role in this place is like how how do I want dermatologists to be represented on social media and what my role is going to be in doing that.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of buckled down and started to make like really like take it seriously, be consistent with creating content and seeing what I could put out there that would be helpful for people.
13:24
SPEAKER_01: And then it's turned into essentially what it's turned into.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: But I think I think what you've identified with my content is that I'm not speaking no Ecta, I want you to watch my content, but I'm not necessarily speaking to you.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: Um I I consider you to be somebody who's very knowledgeable about skincare, and you may learn like a point here or a point there from my content, but I don't try to reach people that maybe don't have a strong foundation and maybe build a foundation that they can then add into their routine and learn more about their skin.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: But I try to come from a basic place.
13:54
SPEAKER_01: And the reason why is because I like when I talk to an accountant or I talk to a lawyer or I talk to somebody who has experts or a carpenter, somebody who has expertise in their like particular field, I find the people that I'm able to connect with best are the people that go to the very basics because I don't know anything about these things.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: Like I like it may be it may be simple to them, but like it is like it is a foreign language to me.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: Like you have to start at like like the basics of what the English words are to me, because like if you don't build on that, I cannot connect with you.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: And so I remember getting into the skincare game and being interested in it, and people were just talking way above me, and it made me it made it very difficult for me to make actionable decisions in order to improve my skin.
14:36
SPEAKER_01: And so I thought to myself, like, where was I when I didn't know much about skin?
14:44
SPEAKER_01: To that person.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: And so I create content from that lens of like, how do I reach the average person that just wants better skin?
14:51
SPEAKER_01: They want healthier skin.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't want to overcomplicate that.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: I want their to make their lives simpler.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: You know, I think of it like my mom raising four of us.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: Like, did she have time to like learn about you know, like every chemical, the chemical structure of niacinamide?
15:03
SPEAKER_01: Like, she just wants to know like what can I do quickly that is gonna make my skin look healthier.
15:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking of it from that lens, if that makes sense.
15:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I absolutely understand.
15:12
SPEAKER_03: And I think that is really the white space, you know, the space that is not filled in the skincare industry.
15:19
SPEAKER_03: So I really value your content and I love that you're doing that because you're right, you know, the fundamentals and the building blocks are what create true knowledge and a good uh, you know, a format that allows you to retain that information and then use it to make decisions, you know.
15:33
SPEAKER_03: So I think it's it's very logical and it's very um approachable, you know, the way that you have kind of taken over um just explaining whatever it is that you, you know, the topic of the day is I just find it to be very unique about you and your content is that it it resonates with, you know, I know you mentioned I you think I have a better understanding, but even you know, when I'm watching, I'm fully engaged, you know.
15:54
SPEAKER_03: So I think that aspect of fundamentals, it resonates with everybody too, you know.
16:00
SPEAKER_03: Like even if you are another doctor and you're listening, you're like, hell yeah, like you know, that's exactly how it works, you know.
16:06
SPEAKER_03: It's like it's cool to hear that.
16:07
SPEAKER_03: But, you know, I I want to um actually talk to you a little bit, you know, further on that because right now I think um dermatologists, which I'm so excited to see, are making this impact, like you said, you know, which is what you said your vision was and you wanted to do.
16:20
SPEAKER_03: And um, I want to know about some of the feedback that you get from consumers because I'm not gonna lie to you.
16:25
SPEAKER_03: When I go onto Reddit, I get worried still because there are people that are like, well, how do you really cleanse your skin?
16:32
SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, oh my gosh, why has this gotten so deep?
16:35
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
16:35
SPEAKER_03: So I would love for you to like shed light on, you know, what where is where's the public going?
16:42
SPEAKER_03: You know, where are the consumers going when it comes to their skin health?
16:44
SPEAKER_03: Do you think from what you're doing?
16:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it's a moving target, which is why I think you know, all these people need to be part of the conversation and part of the solution, right?
16:56
SPEAKER_01: So we have dermatologists and social media.
17:04
SPEAKER_02: So we have people passion that's gonna be a product.
17:10
SPEAKER_01: It's constantly changing, you know, it goes from screen and becomes very important now, and a lot of people are talking about barrier health, and then it shifts the microbiome.
17:22
SPEAKER_01: So these things are like constantly evolving, and I don't know where they're going, but I do know I do watch when the shifts are happening.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: Um and I think essentially there's a role for everybody.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm people, but I have no idea where the consumer in a month even.
17:42
SPEAKER_01: Like I really just am coming in my direct messages.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: It's like, where is like the heart and souls for consumers?
17:48
SPEAKER_01: Because I want to reach them.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I think it's great to make content that is good and reliable, but if nobody's consuming it, then you're kind of missing something, also.
17:57
SPEAKER_01: So it's like you have to make content that reaches people, you have to amplify the voices of other creators that are making reliable content, and then you have to try to meet the consumers where they are in an ever-evolving field.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: And so it takes like an active and dynamic approach.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: Like you can never be stagnant uh when you're creating content or you're being the source of information for people.
18:17
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
18:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I completely agree with you.
18:19
SPEAKER_03: And you know, I actually think that because of the type of content that you create, and because you're so good at just you know delivering in like a short span of time, I actually have a little list of questions I want to ask you, if that's okay.
18:30
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
18:33
SPEAKER_03: So um, number one, now I wrote, I'm gonna read this to you exactly how I wrote it.
18:37
SPEAKER_03: So I hope that you you get my humor.
18:39
SPEAKER_03: It I literally said, doesn't matter what fucking finger you apply eye cream with, period.
18:44
SPEAKER_03: Question mark.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: No, it doesn't.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: Like this stuff, like I mean, I I would say I like understand the idea, like your ring finger applies the least amount of pressure, it's a very sensitive area.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: You don't want to drag the area, but like on the flip side, I I I feel I think like if I was a consumer entering this space and I was like, what's the best eye cream?
19:06
SPEAKER_01: I just want a good eye cream to help my dark circles.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: I finally found one, and then someone told me I wasn't applying it with the right finger.
19:12
SPEAKER_01: I would be like, This is so overwhelming.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: Like, I just want a solution.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: And so um, no, I don't think in the long run it makes a big difference, though I do understand where people come from when they say that.
19:22
SPEAKER_01: I think they they want to help people, but I think it also overly complicates, especially for the consumer that's new.
19:29
SPEAKER_03: The answer is no, though.
19:30
SPEAKER_01: Then I just want to highlight the political it's no, but I but I gave you a political answer, you know, because I have been doing this for a long time.
19:39
SPEAKER_03: But the answer is still no.
19:41
SPEAKER_03: So, okay, moving on to the next question.
19:44
SPEAKER_03: Um, I actually want you to comment on this, and and you know, I'm still kind of researching this topic, but do retinol cause birth defects when women use them during pregnancy just on their face?
19:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, good question.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: You know, I I think overall the data overwhelmingly says probably, probably not.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'll say, you know, there is some concern with topical tazerotine or topical territone, and they could potentially, and there's been like a few cases.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: So I think when you're talking to a physician, um, they're always gonna tell you not to use topical retinoids during pregnancy.
20:21
SPEAKER_01: Most of the reason why, if I'm being honest with you, as you know, uh, is for medical legal reasons, right?
20:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, medical legal reasons is like if I say, you know, use tretinoin during pregnancy, and then you have a birth defect, even if it's unrelated to the tritinoin, then I'm on the hook, and then you're like, you're you're actually performing below the standard of care because nobody else is recommending tritinoin during pregnancy.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: So that becomes the problem in why you'll never get straightforward advice on that topic.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: You know, I think if if if you're concerned about it, like I think it's completely reasonable to avoid the ingredient.
20:54
SPEAKER_01: I I'll be honest, I do consult my patients to avoid tretinoin or retinoids during pregnancy because it's nine months, you know, your skin will rebound um during that nine months afterwards if you were to continue.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, I just for me is not obviously worth it.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: We do know that vitamin A derivatives cause birth defects when taken by mouth, and we have that data from isotretinoin or accutane data.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: So we do know uh, you know, retinoid embryopathy occurs, um, especially when you take very high doses.
21:21
SPEAKER_01: So for me, I I don't recommend it, though.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: I do think the risk is incredibly low.
21:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
21:28
SPEAKER_03: No, I'm glad that you said that because that's really what it's a very interesting topic to me as well.
21:33
SPEAKER_03: And I think that, you know, like you said, we have guidelines, you know, as physicians, we're not allowed to tell you things that are not like universally approved by guidelines.
21:42
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, it's it's a very tricky topic.
21:45
SPEAKER_03: And I think um, you know, there I I have my own thoughts about that, you know, downstream thoughts, but like I it's more of like you want us to be, you know, medical professionals, but we're not allowed to tell you the real opinion because there's no data, really, right?
21:58
SPEAKER_03: So that's I'm glad you answered that for everyone.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: listening because it's it's very gray very very gray area so um what if my next question is what is the proper way of cleansing the face or is there a proper way i don't know that there's a proper way you know you have to have some degree of movement when cleansing the face because that helps you know a lot of a lot of cleansers have mycel in them that help to pick up dirt and debris does it make a huge difference probably not you know essentially you just want your skin to be clean now I think a lot of people overly focus on cleansing you know the double cleanse the triple cleanse the oil cleanse with the water cleanse like I think it's too much focus on cleansing and not enough on barrier support and letting your skin help and heal and repair itself.
22:45
SPEAKER_01: I think our body's inherent ability to heal itself is is definitely understated and that we really need to be doing less to cleanse our skin than anything else.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: But I would say you know 30 seconds moving any you know water-based cleanser around the skin is going to be good for most people unless you're wearing heavy makeup or very water resistant sunscreens that are difficult to wash off.
23:04
SPEAKER_01: And for me that's what I do.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: I don't overcomplicate my cleansing step I use a gentle cleanser that's worked well for me and I just stick with it.
23:13
SPEAKER_03: I love that yeah I'm glad that I'm glad that you actually said that yeah because I with all this double cleansing stuff I'm not gonna lie you know it's it's really confusing right like what is the concept of double cleansing do you think it even matters I mean in terms of just removing like that type of I mean I guess with makeup yeah but in general like everyone's double cleansing right now.
23:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah I really it's really for people with makeup in my mind and you know people that wear water resistant sunscreens and you know using an oil-based or a bomb-based cleanser that helps to emulsify some of that makeup and sunscreen that's on your skin so that you can wash it off with a water-based cleanser I think is reasonable as long as you're using gentle products and I think for certain people it can be very helpful especially if you're using a lot of poor clogging makeups.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: But for the average person who just you know maybe sweats a little bit during the day and you know walks outside to you know get a coffee and then goes to their office like honestly like those people really just one water based cleanser is going to do the trick and you really just want to support your barrier.
24:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean the whole skincare industry I would say this started from cleansers.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: You know cleansers damaged a lot of people's skin before when we had like these soap-based cleansers that had very high pHs would leave behind a residue that actually damaged a lot of people's skin and it led to the skincare industry.
24:27
SPEAKER_01: It led to moisturizers it led to toners and so we have to kind of remember that uh this that skin does a lot of the work on its own and that when you cleanse you can be damaging your skin and just to take it easy with cleansing.
24:40
SPEAKER_03: Yeah I'm glad yeah that makes sense and you know I remember exactly what you're what you're saying about the older cleansers I'm not gonna lie clean and clear if you're listening you guys really messed up my skin I'm sorry I just had a terrible experience with like certain products so I know exactly what you mean there were not not a lot of options back then and yeah yeah so I'm glad that everyone heard that and we don't need to go crazy on our skin as far as scrubbing and cleansing and all that jazz.
25:11
SPEAKER_03: So my next one I think following up to the cleansing I know that the most common question people have is what's the routine right like how do you form a routine?
25:21
SPEAKER_03: So if you were giving someone advice like about hey you know if they had like say two or three serums and then they had you a moisturizer and a cleanser like what would you say is the proper way to take care of your skin like the routine I'm gonna walk it through like exactly how I would want to know if I knew nothing.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: This is like this how I this is how I think I'm like what if I knew nothing about skin how what do I tell this person to do first thing I would say is um what are your concerns?
25:52
SPEAKER_01: Like what are you targeting?
25:53
SPEAKER_01: Do you have any skincare concerns right now?
25:56
SPEAKER_01: Name the top three.
25:58
SPEAKER_01: So is it is it wrinkles is it hyperpigmentation is it acne list those out limp list them out in order of priority and then we can figure out like what are the actives we're gonna target.
26:07
SPEAKER_01: And the second thing is like what is your skin type are you dry are you oily are you combination?
26:12
SPEAKER_01: And there's tricks to figure out what your skin type is um and you can look them up basically you cleanse your skin and you know if you're an oily person by midday like you have no question.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: And if you're if you're dry all the time you know you're a dry person and if you don't know what you are you're probably a combination or normal skin type.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: Now you're gonna use a cleanser and a moisturizer that's gonna fit your skin type.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: So you're gonna look for cleansers that say this is for oily skin and you're gonna buy those simple cleansers cerevi, cetafil, neutrogena anything that's just really simple and effective.
26:44
SPEAKER_01: And then in between those two steps between cleansing and moisturizing you're gonna use your actives and those actives are going to be based on what we outlined in the beginning which is your top three skincare concerns.
26:54
SPEAKER_01: So say that you said your top concern was anti-aging and hyperpigmentation.
26:59
SPEAKER_01: Well then I'd say the first thing to start with is a retinoid because that's gonna be the thing that is going to target both of those things very effectively and it's gonna be consistent.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: So I would say cleanse, apply your retinoid, moisturize, do that for two months and then you can add in other serums on top of that hold the other three off or two that you have in the bank and wait until the retinoid is doing its work before you add in something else and then in the morning wear a sunscreen and that's about it.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: That's an entire routine and if you if you continue to layer after the two months new things that target your specific concerns in about six to eight months your skin will be 80% better.
27:36
SPEAKER_03: Wow that's that's really cool and I and I like that you kept it so like you know just this is what you need because obviously you know the big the elephant in the room is well we have like endless options right so you're so tempted to buy like the eight serums and the you know just somehow make it work.
27:53
SPEAKER_03: And I just I don't know what what are your thoughts around that like just the way uh the market is so saturated and stuff and for consumers.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: Well now we're having a self we're having a separate conversation this is these are two different conversations so so I always think of from like a clinical lens and I think I have a little bit of a bias um and I'll admit and I think a lot of dermatologists have bias um on when when they get asked a question like that like I thought very clinically because when people come to me and they ask me for a skincare routine, they came to my office, they have a concern usually like something's gone wrong, right?
28:28
SPEAKER_01: They have something that has triggered them.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: They're not just like living their daily life and they're like I'm gonna go to the dermatologist today because it's hard to get into a dermatologist it takes you have to take a day off from work.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: You have to schedule it you have to get your insurance to approve it.
28:40
SPEAKER_01: Very difficult to get in there.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: And so once you're in there you've got a problem.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: And so I always think like problem solution based whereas we're having a different conversation now about just the experience of skincare and the self-care that goes into skincare.
28:54
SPEAKER_01: And that's a totally different conversation.
28:55
SPEAKER_01: And I think in that group of people you know trying the you know five or six different serums that have fragrance in them and have cool packaging and like smell good and you spritz on your face those though that's more like lifestyle and self-care and I think that there is definitely an appropriate place for that as well.
29:12
SPEAKER_01: And so um the clinical skincare versus like I have a problem and I want better skin is one group and then you have another group that's like I do skincare because it's my form of self-care and both groups have a very compelling story in my opinion.
29:27
SPEAKER_03: I like I like that you're so diplomatic Dr.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: Sha I have to appreciate that right I mean you know what it is I I really like listen to people like I I like really listen and internalize what people say and like I don't always think I'm right like so I so I will I'll I'll be like you know what they're kind of right like I you know I I'm like I'm not looking at it from that lens and like what is their lens like why are why is why are people no longer concerned about fragrance?
29:57
SPEAKER_01: Like why is this shifting all of a sudden?
29:59
SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking to myself like well I'm worried about my patient with atopic dermatitis or eczema or somebody who's got a concern and I'm thinking like they have acne I don't want to give them an allergic reaction with their acne you know what I mean because that now they're worse than when they started and so I'm always thinking from that lens but what about the person that is just trying to buy skincare because they think the packaging is cute and they think it smells good and they just want to have a calming relaxing routine after work before they go to bed.
30:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to neglect that group either and so like I I really feel that if you listen more to people and you you internalize what they're going through that the world is more together than apart, if that makes sense.
30:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah no and I like that a lot because I think that's really the way to I think live life right is just give each other the benefit of the doubt and I think that's a really cool um validation I think for me in terms of like hearing another medical professional especially like an expert dermatologist saying listen there's no like one size fits all you know and it's really the idea of what you had mentioned earlier about we have guidelines in place.
31:06
SPEAKER_03: You know there are guidelines that are followed in medicine but um at the end of the day you have to fight price balance for yourself as a consumer.
31:14
SPEAKER_03: And so I really you know I that's why I invite a lot of brands I'm not gonna lie the reason I asked that is I invite a lot of brands on here and people are like well you're you know my medical colleagues are like well you're promoting an industry that's like I don't know like oversaturated or that is not so medically based where it should be in that argument.
31:32
SPEAKER_03: And then I'm trying to explain to them exactly what you just said which is hey come on you know if there if you go into a store you see something pink and it makes you happy right like why not?
31:42
SPEAKER_03: It's it's your personal choice.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: So that's why I asked that question because I think there's more need of that balance in the middle and yeah absolutely I I think it always is going to the pendulum is always gonna swing both ways right like there's the consumer who was frustrated at one point with the beautiful packaging and the fragrance products because they were spending good money after bad and bad money like it was just they're just burning money buying these products that people would recommend to them that actually didn't have any clinical efficacy right and so that's the consumer that needs to realize like I have skincare concerns and goals that I'm trying to fix with my skincare.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: And if you're that person then you need to you need to identify that you're that person and be in that clinical group.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm looking for solution based skincare.
32:28
SPEAKER_01: And then if you're the other consumer then you you identify that and you just try and have fun with it and like I said there's a place for both people but um I don't think that either one is right or wrong.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: Like you know I just I know because I always look at it from like what you know what is what is what is the average person in in my patient population looking for when they come in to see me and they want solutions.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: And so that's why I create content from the solutions lens.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: But you know there are so many great creators out there that create it from the lifestyle lens.
33:00
SPEAKER_01: And they I've tried so many products that they've recommended and I've really liked those products.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that there's definitely a place for both and I love the brands that you bring on.
33:08
SPEAKER_01: I think you bring on so many different unique brands like you know the clinical you bring on the physician led brands but you also bring on like the clean beauty and and everything in between which I think everybody deserves a seat at the table to explain their side of the story you know thank you so much.
33:24
SPEAKER_03: That's such an amazing compliment that's good it means a lot coming from you and I I try my best and I I completely agree with everything you said.
33:33
SPEAKER_03: I would love to like actually ask you though um just as like a follow-up to that is do you have any favorites um in terms of just skin health and skincare or just for fun that you use or that you can recommend to everybody listening.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: So you know I have my favorite products and you know I've always been hesitant to release like an updated skin skin routine you know a lot of people on YouTube ask for it.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: I just you know I just don't want people to feel like that's going to be their solution if if I do but I have my like go-to brands you know the first brand that I actually use consistently was Cervi and that's why I have like and and their dedication to science um and to dermatology in general and like really building products with dermatologists is really like behind the scenes a lot more than people realize.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: And so I have a lot of respect for Cerevy and the products that they put out there.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: And so it's one that I recommend to a lot of people and then there's a lot of other brands I really like you know I really like SkinFix as a brand you know I think they have a wonderful story and they make great products.
34:34
SPEAKER_01: I actually like Biosense a lot you know like just from the consumer side of like trying products and I've tried thousands of products the the feel of the products the what they do for my my skin personally the feel of squalling essentially on my skin it feels really good and that's what the brand is built on.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: And so I really like those products as well.
34:55
SPEAKER_01: Trying to think what other and then obviously prescription I use like a prescription retinoid and I like Alta MD a lot for sunscreens.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: I think they put a lot of research into their sunscreens I've been in some of those meetings where I talk to their chemists and like the amount of studies they're doing on sunscreen is like unheard of like in vivo and in vitro studies.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: So I I really like the clinically backed skincare brands um but I also like some of the lifestyle brands as well.
35:21
SPEAKER_03: Yeah no I love that you mentioned that about ELTA I keep hearing that and I keep wanting to like get them on the show and I've been emailing them like because I just want to talk to the scientist you know what I mean like the lead researcher like what are you guys doing over there?
35:35
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm convinced they've come up with like a whole different SPF thing and we're gonna be shocked with it one day, you know, when it comes to no oh my God the the whole side of like skin chemistry and like you know the chemist behind the scenes that aspect is extremely fascinating.
35:52
SPEAKER_01: And those people don't get enough credit for what they do in the skincare space.
35:57
SPEAKER_01: And I have conversations like I'm in like luckily like when I'm creating content and working with brands now like I'm able to say like I want to speak with your chemists and talk to them about you know why did they formulate like this like I'll even ask them like how many times did you test this um for uh to make sure that it didn't colonize with bacteria or like how how long has the stability been tested for and like under what conditions did you test it and um you know did you test it around the eye is it safe around the eye like I ask all these questions and these people really have like really put in a lot of thought oh we did this under this condition using this test like there's a lot of thought that goes on to skincare behind the scenes like even the non-clinical brands do a lot of testing on their products um that a lot of people don't realize and so skincare is at the industry is much more sophisticated than I think I even realized from a dermatology perspective.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: Like we learn ingredients we learn skin we learn skin conditions but we don't learn the cosmetic chemistry it's something that you have to take a particular interest in that I've taken interest in but when you take that particular interest in it you learn a lot about the testing that goes on in order to bring products to consumers yeah no I I love that you said that because it's it's so sophisticated.
37:07
SPEAKER_03: You're so right like there's things I like learn about every day or like I'll look up an ingredient and I'm like oh my gosh I didn't know they were doing such cutting edge research about this specific chemical and it's it's enough how much I learn about all other fields of medicine through I mean believe it or not chemistry.
37:25
SPEAKER_03: So 100% I completely agree with you.
37:28
SPEAKER_03: And um you know really uh one of the big questions I have for you is is in terms of understanding that chemistry side right do you think consumers want to understand that or is it just something that we scientists and doctors can geek out about and what is your real opinion I think most people don't care honestly um and and I I'm just telling you from the million conversations and even from my own family personal experiences like my family is like just like what's a good product you know and that most people don't but there are a select group of people that in order for them to use a product consistently um they need to know why and those people need the story and then for me I feel like I need to know that level of detail in order to effectively communicate what I think is important to the consumer like in order for me to kind of like create the content that I feel like is thorough enough to make recommendations I feel like I need that extra bit of information because there is that select group of people that will ask that question, right?
38:31
SPEAKER_01: And I need to be armed with that information to be able to like respond to the comments in a way that is is is trustworthy right like if you ask me a question I don't know anything about that particular ingredient or I don't know what the testing looks like or you know why they made that claim that they made and where the data is and like I need to be thorough because I think my platform is built on trust.
38:51
SPEAKER_01: And so I get that data for those people that are very interested in that information so that I can give that and share that with them.
38:57
SPEAKER_01: And so I always think about it from that perspective.
38:59
SPEAKER_01: But like when my mom is asking for a skincare routine she just wants to know like what products to buy and like how to use them.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: And so for most people it's like they're too busy honestly like to um take a particular interest or they have other hobbies outside of skincare that you know they don't want to learn about like every ingredient and every study that's ever been done on them.
39:19
SPEAKER_01: And like you know that's that's just not their interest.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: They just want better skin.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: And so like like I said like I think there's groups of people and there's definitely like echo chambers within those groups and it makes you feel like when you're in that echo chamber that everyone feels the same way that you do.
39:32
SPEAKER_01: But when you take outside when you get outside of that echo chamber you realize that most people have other concerns and worries.
39:40
SPEAKER_03: Well yeah I think that's yeah you're absolutely right I but I just wonder because I think that you know from what I'm seeing in terms of how consumerism is evolving for this industry it is more towards this direction of we want answers, we want numbers you know we have to as a brand we have to give them you know this many people saw a difference in their skin.
40:04
SPEAKER_03: So recently I just published um you know a post and it was about statistical analysis and it's the very fundamentals of statistical analysis I think that everyone who owns a brand or any consumer who's looking for at numbers as a reason to purchase a product, I was putting that out there for them and I'm I'm wondering people are asking these questions but does anyone want the answer right and that's really leading back to what you're saying is like I'm getting the questions but then who the hell is asking the question right who is anybody else question right yeah um I you know I think that there's a group of people that are going to look those they want those answers they want to they want to discover those answers themselves and then there's another group of people that say you know what I've discovered Ecta and you know I trust her content and you know what like I'm gonna have her be the scientific my scientific communicator that I trust.
40:57
SPEAKER_01: And so you you do the data collection and then you interpret it and you make it easy to digest and then you regurgitate that in a way that's easy to understand.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: So you're the scientific communicator that they trust it's kind of like like a news reporter essentially right like you know you're not gonna go to you know Syria to figure out what's going on on the ground yourself.
41:17
SPEAKER_01: You're gonna find a news anchor that you trust and believe what they say about like what they interpret of the data that's coming out and information that they have.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: And so essentially like they people oftentimes and that's where I think a lot of influencers come into play and dermatologists that are on social media is that they are essentially the scientific communicators to the audience that may or may not be interested in going through the the work of getting all that information.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: And then I think there's another group of people outside of efficacy I would say that there is a big big interest in safety like I think people are very concerned about what they're putting in their body and what they're putting on their body and they have concerns about how is that going to affect me from a health perspective.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: And I think that data is becoming more and more important outside of the efficacy like people are very concerned about safety and overall health.
42:11
SPEAKER_03: That's like what toxicology and stuff like that, right?
42:14
SPEAKER_01: And like you're going into that interesting that's really yeah no I think that's where the clean beauty movement comes it comes from that it comes from it comes from a place of concern like the consumer is interested in that with no secondary objective like they are genuinely when you talk to patients who say I'm worried about paradigms and you're in you they're in your office like that changed my perspective on clean beauty and the people that are behind these accounts and these things like there's more to it than I think you realize when you have the conversation with the patient like I had a conversation with this patient she was 26 years old she just had been diagnosed with breast cancer it just had been removed she was on uh like tamoxifen or something as like a hormonal agent you know had been cleared her breast cancer was cleared but she was on like her her post uh chemotherapy regimen and her biggest concern was like I don't want to put anything on my skin that could potentially cause anything like this to ever happen again in my life and I'm saying like hey listen like if this is my own family I'm telling you that these products are safe but you can't like the fear level there you can't you can't negate their experience right like their experience is is I can't tell you how to feel you know and so like when you have that conversation with somebody you almost have to say like like this is what I would do but like it is reasonable for you to have your own opinion about what you put on your body because you had an experience that I never had right like I can tell you all day you know like don't worry about that but I didn't live your experience and so like those conversations Conversations, like I think we need to meet that group of people who have concerns and fears about ingredients from a place of like these people genuinely are concerned about their health, and like how do we dispel that and meet them in a place where we can have like an open conversation about where those concerns and fears come from?
44:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I agree, and that's the psychology of beauty.
44:20
SPEAKER_03: I mean, genuinely, I think you made a great point in that um, you know, there are these people that have this like PTSD kind of situation going on where, you know, I had a friend that literally had this terrible reaction to the most minute dose of topical steroids, and it just it caused this chain effect for her.
44:39
SPEAKER_03: It's like one in a million case kind of situation, you know what I mean?
44:42
SPEAKER_03: And she was really concerned about exactly what you were talking about, clean beauty products, whatnot.
44:48
SPEAKER_03: So um, you know, I agree with you, but it's like really what that leads me to is then consumerism, it wants clean beauty, it wants green beauty, but then I guess that sticker on the bottle is enough to convince them that this is clean or green, right?
45:04
SPEAKER_03: And then there's brands who are taking advantage of that and then exploiting the numbers, right?
45:09
SPEAKER_03: And that makes me irritated as a scientist and a doctor, and it makes me worried about consumers, right?
45:16
SPEAKER_03: So I made this comment with Chloe Metzger um, you know, on my previous interview where I said, Chloe, with the beauty awards and shit coming around, is it really just all about getting a sticker?
45:26
SPEAKER_03: Because is that really what it is, you know what I mean?
45:29
SPEAKER_03: If you see a consumer buying something, because in Sephora it says Sephora clean check mark on it, that for me is more concerning as a doctor.
45:38
SPEAKER_03: Would you not agree?
45:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, so there's the there's both sides, right?
45:44
SPEAKER_01: Like, like I always say the truth is somewhere in the middle, right?
45:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, and and I think you hit the nail on the head perfectly.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: Like when there is a concern and there's a fear, there's a market, right?
45:53
SPEAKER_01: And so there are people, right, who would genuinely like my patient, right?
45:58
SPEAKER_01: Genuinely are concerned about their health.
46:01
SPEAKER_01: And then there are companies that say, like, this is an opportunity, sadly, to capitalize on that fear, right?
46:08
SPEAKER_01: And so that is like the push and pull, right?
46:11
SPEAKER_01: It's like we gotta, we have to push one, we have to pull when one goes too far, right?
46:16
SPEAKER_01: It's like this is completely safe.
46:17
SPEAKER_01: Like you have to kind of rein those people in too, right?
46:20
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then on the other side, you have to rein the people in that are saying, like, hey, like this is gonna kill you, right?
46:25
SPEAKER_01: And then meet somewhere in the middle and have like real genuine conversations.
46:29
SPEAKER_01: But the blame is never on the consumer to me.
46:33
SPEAKER_01: The consumer, when I speak to them, it always comes from a place of like, I just wanna be healthy and I want to be safe and I want to have better skin.
46:41
SPEAKER_01: Like, it never comes from a place of like I'm just trying to like create problems by like seeking out these things that I feel like are good for me.
46:48
SPEAKER_01: So I do agree though that like the the there is an opportunity for brands to take advantage of that.
46:53
SPEAKER_01: And that's like sort of the the the dirty side of this whole thing.
46:57
SPEAKER_01: I I and I agree with that.
46:59
SPEAKER_01: And who decides what's clean?
47:00
SPEAKER_01: That's the problem, right?
47:01
SPEAKER_01: It's like who decides?
47:02
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, who is the, you know, is it Sephora?
47:05
SPEAKER_01: They did get to decide like what is what is a clean ingredient and what's not a clean ingredient.
47:09
SPEAKER_01: Uh who's who's putting that list together, you know, right?
47:12
SPEAKER_01: Like is it scientists, is it based on data?
47:14
SPEAKER_01: So that's the biggest problem is like who determines what's clean and what's not.
47:20
SPEAKER_03: You know, that's really it, the the crux of the problem.
47:22
SPEAKER_03: And that's I'm so glad that you um mentioned the consumer thing because I'm the same way, I never blame the consumer, but I'm saying like there's a psychology, and you know what I mean?
47:31
SPEAKER_03: There's a there's a way that we approach buying things, right?
47:34
SPEAKER_03: As just people.
47:35
SPEAKER_03: And I think there is this ethical responsibility on whoever's hands it, you know, whoever's shoulders it lies on.
47:40
SPEAKER_03: I don't know, but somebody's got it and somebody's got to take care of it.
47:43
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
47:44
SPEAKER_03: So um I'm glad that you answered that.
47:46
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
47:47
SPEAKER_03: I know it's a hard question.
47:48
SPEAKER_03: It it's I it's a much more deeper multi-layered problem than we can ever, you know, encompass in one podcast.
47:54
SPEAKER_03: But Dr.
47:55
SPEAKER_03: Shah, thank you for everything for coming onto the show, for being so amazing.
48:00
SPEAKER_03: I love all your content.
48:01
SPEAKER_03: Um, I would love to have you back on any, any, any time.
48:04
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, please, if you have any time in your schedule, come back.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh-oh, I enjoy this conversation.
48:10
SPEAKER_01: Great questions, and thank you for having me on.
48:12
SPEAKER_01: I'm glad we finally uh got to make this happen and looking forward to future episodes from you.
48:17
SPEAKER_01: I think you bring on very interesting people.
48:19
SPEAKER_01: I'm probably the least interesting of those people, but thank you for having me on.
48:23
SPEAKER_03: This is gonna be like our top two episodes of all time.
48:27
SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, people love you, Dr.
48:29
SPEAKER_03: Shaw.
48:30
SPEAKER_03: They really do.
48:31
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
48:31
SPEAKER_01: You're freaking Teddy Teddy is the star of the show, and he needs to get groomed, but there's like a doggy virus going around in this city, and so the groomer told me not to bring him in.
48:40
SPEAKER_03: So I don't know.
48:42
SPEAKER_03: I think, well, I think he's adorable, and I'd absolutely love that you had him here with us.
48:48
SPEAKER_03: I'm a huge animal lover.
48:49
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, thank you so much and everyone listening.
48:51
SPEAKER_03: I hope you love this conversation as much as I had the honor of conducting the interview and leave your feedback, comments, questions, anything, and I'll definitely pass them along to Dr.
49:00
SPEAKER_03: Shell's team.
49:01
SPEAKER_03: But thank you so much.
49:04
SPEAKER_03: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
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49:12
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50:11
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