Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / The Deep-Grace Diving Question Box

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The Deep-Grace Diving Question Box · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:01
  Hey friends, curiosity is the wick in the candle of learning.
• 0:09
  So good.
• 0:10
  Good.
• 0:10
  I wish I had made that up.
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  SPEAKER_03: Curiosity is the wick in the candle of learning.
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  And curiosity is this wonderful gift that God has given to us
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  to ask questions.
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  SPEAKER_03: And no better place to ask questions than questions of God and the Bible,
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: because God invites that.
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  SPEAKER_03: God made us curious.
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  SPEAKER_03: And in some religious circles, you should never ask questions.
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  SPEAKER_03: Just believe what you've been told.
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  And the only way we can really discover the depths of Bud's
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  grace is by being
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  SPEAKER_03: curious and asking a lot of questions.
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  So today we are going to open up the question box and dive into
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  a variety of subjects.
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  SPEAKER_03: And we're going to let John be our question moderator today.
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  SPEAKER_03: Great.
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  SPEAKER_03: He's the one bringing the questions to us.
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  I'm here with John D.
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  Burgess and,
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  of course,
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  with the famous Terry Summers.
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  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
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  that'll play in here just a little bit probably yeah all right
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  so john the podcast
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  is yours today yeah well great and i i really appreciate that
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  the three of us uh
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  agree that critical thinking doesn't kind of get checked at the
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  door before you
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  walk into church that um that uh throughout scripture god
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  invites these questions
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  SPEAKER_01: even hard ones even emotional hard questions
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  SPEAKER_01: and that we can tackle that together.
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  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for the time.
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  SPEAKER_01: A couple of podcasts ago,
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  SPEAKER_01: we were talking about something super important and Tim said,
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  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  SPEAKER_01: maybe Jesus was just wrong about this.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the topic was when Jesus will come back.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the passage seems to indicate, you know, it says, I think, soon.
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  SPEAKER_01: And Tim said, well, maybe Jesus was just wrong about that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, I don't, man, that doesn't sound right because he's God.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'm there with the idea that like at some point he got a cold, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he was living the human experience and that was really important.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that was part of the reason why he was God and also human.
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  i got that but i think i've been you know told plenty of times
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  that he was the only
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  perfect human sinless and so the idea that he was wrong about
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  something and it was
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  recorded in scripture i thought that was valuable uh time that
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  we could discuss
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  that so so let me uh come back with a question john yeah why
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  would it be a bad
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  SPEAKER_03: thing if jesus was wrong about something
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that I rely on the red letters so much in the Bible.
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  SPEAKER_01: I always say,
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  SPEAKER_01: look,
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  SPEAKER_01: there's a lot that I'm obviously still exploring about my faith,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I appreciate those people listening that allow me to do it.
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  But I always turn and say,
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  look,
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  okay,
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  if I've got a big question,
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  what did the red letters say?
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  SPEAKER_01: In other words, what did Jesus actually say?
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  And if he didn't say something on a topic,
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  I think that sometimes that might be intentional.
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  And there's all kinds of topics that are hot in culture right
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  now where I'm looking
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  SPEAKER_01: at what Jesus said and Jesus did not say anything about those topics.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's important for me.
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  And also I'm a very,
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  you know,
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  I'm one of those learners that's very word focused.
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  SPEAKER_01: The language really matters to me.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if I apply my critical thinking,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm like,
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  SPEAKER_01: okay,
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  SPEAKER_01: let me at least put my stake in the ground.
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  SPEAKER_01: This is what Jesus said.
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  SPEAKER_01: So the idea that he's wrong, that rocks my world.
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  SPEAKER_01: I got to think about that.
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  SPEAKER_03: So I absolutely agree with that.
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  SPEAKER_03: Everything you said.
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  And so when we say Jesus was wrong about something,
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  it needs a little bit of context.
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  I'm not saying that Jesus was wrong about truth telling and the
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  truth that he shared.
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  SPEAKER_03: What I'm saying is that Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_03: and maybe wrong was not quite the right word,
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  SPEAKER_03: but Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_03: when it came to when he would return,
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  SPEAKER_03: he didn't know.
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  And so we have some stories where he will tell parables about
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  suggesting that his
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  SPEAKER_03: return will be immediate.
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  And then we have some other stories where he seems to suggest
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  that his return won't
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  SPEAKER_03: be for a while.
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  And so in a passage where Jesus,
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  I can't remember exactly what it was we were talking about.
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  SPEAKER_03: It was the second coming.
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  It gave the impression that Jesus at that point was saying,
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  my return is immediate.
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  SPEAKER_03: And it wasn't.
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right?
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  So I think,
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  first of all,
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  let's just debunk that being wrong about something is the same
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  as sin.
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  SPEAKER_03: Nothing wrong with being wrong about something.
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  SPEAKER_03: Secondly,
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  let's just make sure we keep in context that we're not saying
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  that Jesus was wrong
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  SPEAKER_03: about truth he spoke.
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  SPEAKER_03: Jesus in this point just doesn't know.
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  SPEAKER_03: He's human.
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  SPEAKER_03: His knowledge base is limited because he's human.
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  SPEAKER_03: So there were things that he didn't know.
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  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_03: if you were to ask Jesus 2,000 years ago,
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  SPEAKER_03: well,
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  SPEAKER_03: Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_03: tell me,
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  SPEAKER_03: who's going to be president of the United States of America in 2025?
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  SPEAKER_03: He wouldn't have known.
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  And that is true,
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  even though this is the person that is both human and God at
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  the same time.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_03: But he is human.
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  SPEAKER_03: He is human.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so at that point, some of his knowledge is going to be limited now.
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  And so it was limited in terms that he wasn't wrong about that
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  he's going to come back someday.
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  SPEAKER_03: But he may not have been quite clear on when he would return.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  And the other challenge that we have with some of this verbiage
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  is there's
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  SPEAKER_03: confusion between is Jesus talking about when he's going to come back?
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  SPEAKER_03: Is he talking about when he's going to come back from the dead?
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  So that gets a little bit conflicted because Jesus uses the
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  kingdom of God.
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  And for Jesus,
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  the kingdom of God wasn't something that will happen someday.
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  SPEAKER_03: It's something that happens now because Jesus rose from the dead.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so the kingdom of God is now here.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: We're really going to read.
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  SPEAKER_03: The point is, let me clarify.
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  SPEAKER_03: People don't think Jesus was wrong about stuff.
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  SPEAKER_03: Jesus was never wrong about a truth that he was telling.
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  SPEAKER_03: But there were things that he didn't always know in terms of timing.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: And we see this with the Apostle Paul,
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  SPEAKER_03: by the way,
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  SPEAKER_03: who at first thought Jesus was coming back in his lifetime.
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  And then as he gets a little older and closer to his death,
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  he starts to say,
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  it may be a while.
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  SPEAKER_03: And that's not to say that we were wrong.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  Or maybe it is to say that we were wrong,
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  but they're not wrong about Jesus coming back.
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  SPEAKER_03: It was just the timing of it.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Nobody knows.
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  SPEAKER_03: Only God knows.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: So does that help Terry jump in here?
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  SPEAKER_03: Because I want to make sure you always speak to the normal person.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm loaded with John's comment.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, he was human, but he was also God.
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  So if you just got done saying only God knows,
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  then I am wrestling with that.
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  And maybe there's just some things I have to accept that I
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  would wrestle with.
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  SPEAKER_00: The other thing that I'm also wrestling with, because
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  SPEAKER_00: When John says,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I'm very much the same,
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  SPEAKER_00: that he hangs on the red letter,
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  SPEAKER_00: we're going from someone that recorded this,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's a person.
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  And remember the game telephone where someone would say
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  something at the beginning
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  SPEAKER_00: and by the time?
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  SPEAKER_00: And all the way to the end, it had changed a little bit.
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  SPEAKER_00: How do we, you know what I mean?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like that's,
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  I just feel like I just jumped in the deep end of a muddy pool
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  and splashed over
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  SPEAKER_00: everything.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's what I was thinking.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you asked me brother.
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  SPEAKER_00: So there you go.
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  Yep.
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  SPEAKER_03: Well, again, let's face it.
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  SPEAKER_03: It's a mystery.
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  SPEAKER_03: We don't quite get that.
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  SPEAKER_03: how Jesus can be fully God and fully human,
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  how Jesus can be God and talk to himself as if God is somewhere
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  else and pray to
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  SPEAKER_03: God,
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  SPEAKER_03: right?
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  SPEAKER_03: There are just some things we don't understand.
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  One of the challenges that we have as Christians is that when
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  we're reading through
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  SPEAKER_03: the story of Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_03: his ministry years,
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  SPEAKER_03: his death and resurrection,
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  SPEAKER_03: we read it through the lens that this is God.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  We need to read it through the lens that this is a human being
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  who is sharing
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  SPEAKER_03: something about the radical nature of God,
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  SPEAKER_03: who in the end,
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  SPEAKER_03: through his death and resurrection,
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  SPEAKER_03: proves to be God himself.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: And we need to...
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  SPEAKER_03: we need to come to terms with what it means that Jesus was human.
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  SPEAKER_02: So,
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  SPEAKER_03: for example,
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  SPEAKER_03: if Jesus took a math test and got two wrong out of a hundred,
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  SPEAKER_03: does that mean that he's less than God?
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  SPEAKER_03: Can Jesus, the human, get math problems wrong and not us see it as a sin?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_03: We tend to think of mistakes as being sinful.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right?
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  SPEAKER_03: Go ahead, Terry.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think it's tied up in the word perfect.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I think so.
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  SPEAKER_03: But I think we need to be cautious with that word perfect.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_03: Because the Hebrews,
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  SPEAKER_03: the writer of Hebrews says that Jesus was made like us in every way,
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  SPEAKER_03: in every way,
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  SPEAKER_03: except that he didn't sin.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  So he,
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  which means that he was fully engaged with God,
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  fully within the will of God.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  It didn't mean necessarily that he wouldn't punch his finger
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  with a hammer and yell out.
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  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't mean that he wouldn't lose his temper.
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  SPEAKER_03: We knew he lost his temper.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so we have to be careful.
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  SPEAKER_03: And it's really hard.
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  Because we read this through the lens of this Jesus is God who
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  became a human being.
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  SPEAKER_03: But we need to remember he was a human being like us.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: One doesn't trump the other.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  And so to be human and to not have all the knowledge doesn't
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  make him less than God.
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  SPEAKER_03: It makes him fully human.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_03: He could still bleed and die.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think you called it a mystery, right?
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  And so Tim,
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  the mystery is both uncomfortable and beautiful at the same
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  time.
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  for a guy living in 2025 that wants certainty right yeah but i
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  think that you know
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  even if i think of of jesus in the garden of gethsemane saying
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  um you know take
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  this cup of suffering from me but your will not mine seems to
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  indicate that jesus
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  the human and god there's that there's mystery right there that
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  i mean yes the
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  SPEAKER_01: timing of what's going to happen to him and what's about to happen and
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  And like you said,
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  this prayer to God as if he's only human,
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  but not just fully human,
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  right?
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: So the mystery is both uncomfortable, but also beautiful.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_03: So I know we've got some other questions.
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  SPEAKER_03: I want to be clear again for people.
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  SPEAKER_03: I am not saying that Jesus, when he spoke truth, was wrong.
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  I'm saying there's a possibility that in what he believed the
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  timing of his second
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  SPEAKER_03: coming could be that he was wrong.
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  SPEAKER_03: That doesn't change the fact that he's coming back someday.
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  SPEAKER_03: And he gave himself a way out.
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  SPEAKER_03: He said, no one knows the day or the hour but the Father.
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  SPEAKER_03: He said, not even the Son knows.
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  SPEAKER_03: And so when he...
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  SPEAKER_03: I was going to say,
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  SPEAKER_03: when he's sort of giving these timelines,
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  SPEAKER_03: he doesn't really know.
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  And that's why you sort of see Jesus,
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  the human,
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  knowing he's coming back someday,
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  SPEAKER_03: Well, is it going to be soon?
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  SPEAKER_03: Is it not going to be soon?
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  SPEAKER_03: And it's the same struggle the writers had in the New Testament.
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  SPEAKER_03: And quite honestly, the same struggle we have in 2025.
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  SPEAKER_03: It could be today now.
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  SPEAKER_03: Or it might not be for another million years.
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  SPEAKER_03: And anything in between.
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  SPEAKER_03: Go ahead, Terry.
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  SPEAKER_03: We'll give you the final one.
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  No,
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  I'm just saying he was speaking through the limitations of his
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  humanity.
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  SPEAKER_03: Right.
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  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, he's speaking.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_03: He didn't know English.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: He didn't know French.
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  SPEAKER_03: All he knew was Aramaic and Hebrew, maybe some Greek.
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  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's what it means to be human.
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  He was living in the limitations of a human body in a human
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  moment in history.
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  And so everything that he says as a human being is in the
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  context of what we would
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  SPEAKER_03: now call first century Jerusalem under Roman Empire.
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  SPEAKER_03: And that's his human context.
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  And so we can't expect him in that human context to be talking
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  about nuclear missiles
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  SPEAKER_03: or to be talking about Abraham Lincoln being shot.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: He didn't have that capacity.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:04
  And you could ask the question,
• 15:05
  does God even know all that stuff up front?
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: But that would take us down a whole different rabbit hole.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: We just want to stick with the rabbit holes we've already decided.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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  SPEAKER_03: So John's got some questions.
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  SPEAKER_03: He's working with some youth kids,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: and he asked them some questions,
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_03: and we thought some of them sounded interesting.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  I asked them to give me anonymous questions and they're an
• 15:30
  amazing group and they
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: gave me fantastic questions.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I want to start with,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: we might have a chance to get to three or four,
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  SPEAKER_01: depending on where we go.
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  SPEAKER_01: Here's the first one though.
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  SPEAKER_01: Why do some people die and not get the chance to even meet God?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: Right,
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  SPEAKER_03: so we know that there are people throughout history who have died,
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  SPEAKER_03: never heard the story of Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_03: maybe never heard the story of God.
• 16:03
  You know,
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  we're talking billions and billions of people over the course
• 16:07
  of human history.
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  SPEAKER_03: And give me the exact wording of the question.
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  SPEAKER_01: Why do some people die and not get the chance to even meet God?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_03: So I'm going to answer this two ways.
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  SPEAKER_03: The first is, I believe they're going to get a chance to meet God.
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  SPEAKER_03: That God is not bound by time or space.
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  SPEAKER_03: He's not bound by the limitations of humanity as we know it, life, death.
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  That even those who never had a chance to hear about Jesus are
• 16:45
  going to get to
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  SPEAKER_03: stand face to face with Jesus and experience the love and grace of God.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: So even though they maybe didn't get the chance here on earth,
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: they will get the chance,
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  SPEAKER_03: and it will be a good one.
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  SPEAKER_03: The second way I'll answer that question is by saying,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure it's our responsibility to ask that question.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: Our question should be,
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  what can I do to help tell the story so that people do get to
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  hear about Jesus and
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: about God?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:26
  That's the answer I'm going to give,
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  but I'll,
• 17:28
  I'll probably just take credit for it.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: Well, go ahead.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: Because I didn't make that up.
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  SPEAKER_03: I stole it from somebody else.
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  SPEAKER_01: So here's, yeah, here's the next question.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this is a really good one too.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand why so many famous people mock God, like it's a trend.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 17:50
  So I think we should hand this one off to the famous person in
• 17:53
  our group,
• 17:53
  Terry Summers.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: Terry was Arizona Actress of the Year at one time.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, my gosh.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: She made a move.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: Did you know that?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you dropped out.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Tim said you made a movie with Charlie Sheen.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just want to make sure that that came through.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay, yeah.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: Charlie probably says, I made a movie with Terry Summers.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: He probably is now, yeah.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: And weren't you and Robert Redford big fans of each other?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you got it all right.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: Get that button again, Tim.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: So there we built you up.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: What's been your experience?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Only for me to fall.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: John, can you say it one more time?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand why so many famous people mock God like it's a trend.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, gosh.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the trend's been going on for a very long time.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: If it is a trend, it's nothing new.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: I have.
• 19:07
  in the community that I have been in,
• 19:10
  which is,
• 19:11
  I have been up close with famous people.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I have heard a lot said from famous people that is mocking.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I see the perspective that they're viewing things from.
• 19:28
  And not to point fingers at the Christian community,
• 19:31
  I don't want to do that.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there's been plenty of
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: harm done under the name of Christianity.
• 19:42
  And there was a season where I even clarified when I spoke of
• 19:46
  my faith that I was a
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Christ follower,
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: a Jesus follower,
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: because it felt less pointed and that maybe I could be sort of somewhat
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: disassociated with the negativity that
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then I thought, well, then how am I helping?
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 20:03
  like if I'm removing myself so much that if I am anything
• 20:07
  different from what they
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: would mock,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: then I didn't want to remove myself.
• 20:13
  But I feel that is in direct correlation with the absence of
• 20:21
  the message of love that I
• 20:26
  is often spoken underneath the banner of Christianity that you
• 20:32
  hit the hardest
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: with,
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: or it seems to hit hard with the artistic community in particular.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 20:43
  and some of the things that they hold dear and some of the ways
• 20:46
  they express
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: themselves and,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: and with a more liberal thinking, um, critical mind.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: I know I'm speaking in broad strokes and maybe somewhat narrowly,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: but I think it's related to that.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it is the lack of love and, you know, um,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know, those bugs, bug zappers.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: I know I always come out of left field with these metaphors,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: but the bugs are drawn not to get zapped,
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: but they're drawn to the light.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel like we are missing.
• 21:24
  We,
• 21:24
  the Christian community is kind of missing that by not being
• 21:28
  the light that draws,
• 21:30
  um,
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: that draws people to us and then to be able to have conversations.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Did I, was that too broad stroked for an answer?
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's spot on Terry.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: I think, um, that I'll say it a bit more crassly there.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot to mock about Christianity and Christianity.
• 21:52
  A lot of people are hearing,
• 21:53
  which my argument is not really Christianity,
• 21:56
  right?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: It lacks love.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's judgmental.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: At the same time,
• 22:01
  I would suggest that there are really a number of famous people
• 22:10
  who are sort of
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: coming out of the shadows talking about their faith.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: Think of Chris Pratt.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, that guy's a goofball, right?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: But man, he's a deeply committed Christian.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: And several years ago,
• 22:27
  I had a chance to be in California and there was a meeting of
• 22:31
  people and they were
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: just talking about doing ministry with the Christians in Hollywood.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: and how difficult it can be at times to be a Christian in Hollywood.
• 22:41
  And they just said there's so many of them there,
• 22:44
  and how to create a community for them.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: The other thing I would say is,
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: my wife watches this more than I do,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_03: but she watches The Voice religiously.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: And the amount of Jesus stuff on that show,
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: is really quite incredible to me,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: not only with contestants coming on and singing gospel songs,
• 23:08
  but many of the judges are just very open about the fact that
• 23:13
  they're faith people.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: Michael Bublé and Reba McIntyre.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: McIntyre, right.
• 23:21
  And Snoop Dogg keeps talking about how the Holy Ghost is
• 23:23
  showing up on the show.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: And it's...
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's a version of Christianity that is,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_03: first of all,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: more playful,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_03: more heartfelt,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: more loving.
• 23:41
  And I think what you see is when people see Jesus for who Jesus
• 23:46
  really is,
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: there's traction to that.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: I think that there are some good things happening out there
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: that if you look for it, you're going to get a chance to see it.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:04
  And I don't want to gloss over what you just said,
• 24:06
  because I completely agree,
• 24:07
  Tim.
• 24:07
  I think that there is a little bit of courage being shown in
• 24:12
  those situations.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: But what I want to make sure I was following Terry,
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: too,
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: is when you talk about,
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: and correct me if I'm wrong here,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Terry,
• 24:21
  but let's just say you're talking about whatever the A-list
• 24:24
  celebrities are.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: These are people that are
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: loved and adored by millions,
• 24:31
  but they're feeling a lack of love from the Christian community
• 24:35
  for whatever
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: reason.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And that's their impression of Christianity and Jesus.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: That is what's formed.
• 24:42
  I just think it's very ironic that we're talking about people
• 24:45
  that are adored by so many,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Except for maybe it's easier to identify a group where they're like,
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't understand what this group stands for.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: And that's fair criticism, I think, at times.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:59
  Not to come off goody-goody,
• 25:04
  but I think of the Bible talks about the fruits of the Spirit.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Love, joy, peace.
• 25:13
  Patience,
• 25:14
  goodness,
• 25:14
  kindness,
• 25:16
  gentleness,
• 25:17
  faithfulness,
• 25:18
  and self-control.
• 25:20
  And I don't see that anyone could mock that if that's what they
• 25:26
  were regularly experiencing.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: I planted a lemon tree outside,
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: and if it did not grow lemons,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: I would doubt that it was a lemon tree.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel that's the dealio, you know?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: And is it fair to then just mention, like, within the industry?
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: it's an industry that is based upon almost like winning the lottery,
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: and you can be denied winning the lottery for any reason.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: For the length of your hair, for the...
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: thing that you said last Thursday, right?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: All of it.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 26:08
  And so isn't there pressure within the industry to sort of
• 26:12
  limit the reasons why
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: people may not want to hire you?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if one of those reasons happens to be religion or faith, that's an...
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: That could be an eliminator.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 26:23
  I mean,
• 26:23
  you just sort of stated it by broad stroking the color or your
• 26:29
  hair.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yes.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: And everyone is super aware of that.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I understand.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I understand.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that I want to.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a little bit of both.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that I don't want to walk the boat.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: I also don't want to stand out.
• 26:46
  on the corner and holler,
• 26:49
  you know,
• 26:49
  where it's like bumping up against a cactus.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's prickly.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: But still, I understand why a lot of folks sort of hush a little bit.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: One,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: to not rock the boat for their own career,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: because I think you're really quick to put yourself,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: in a group of people that's just going to be ignored.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I mean, going to be dismissed.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know what I mean?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think some of it is because dismissals happening on their end as well.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:27
  I don't know if we answered the question,
• 27:28
  but I think that's totally fascinating.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, Terry did a great job.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Well done.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, one time for one more.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think Tim?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Is anxiety and stress from God?
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: If not, why does he let so many people have serious struggles with it?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you've got three people right here who all have anxiety stuff.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: So what I can say, it's not very God-like to go through stress, right?
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's a horrible experience to go through an anxiety attack, panic attack.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: So the first thing I would say is,
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: Surprisingly,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: yes,
• 28:14
  stress and anxiety come from God because they are powerful
• 28:19
  tools to help us know
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: that there's something wrong in our lives.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: So stress actually protects us.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: Anxiety can protect us.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: So let's say that there's a coyote walking through your neighborhood and,
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_03: immediately your amygdala kicks in,
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: especially if you've got pets and you think,
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: I got to get my pets safe.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: I got to make sure my dog's in the house, my cat's in the house.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good thing.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Or children.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'll just say, or children.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, or children, yeah.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_03: But they tend to stay away from kids.
• 28:57
  So just so people know,
• 28:59
  if you don't have coyotes,
• 29:00
  they tend to stay away from kids.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_03: But yes, your kids.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm way past that now, so I have dogs.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're going into a meeting,
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: let's say,
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_03: or Terry,
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: you know this,
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_03: John,
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: when you're performing,
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: stress becomes a good energy that you harness, right?
• 29:21
  So there are some really,
• 29:23
  stress and anxiety are gifts that God has given to us.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's when they're out of control,
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: as with many good things,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: when they're out of control,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: that they become detrimental to our lives.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that's not from God, right?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_03: That's just a part of the human experience.
• 29:47
  A lot of stress and anxiety really comes from the way that we
• 29:49
  interpret events.
• 29:52
  This could be a life or death situation,
• 29:54
  and suddenly your anxiety grows,
• 29:57
  and it's not.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_03: You're just choosing between this color or that color.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_03: But everything is heightened.
• 30:02
  There are a lot of things happening in our world in 2025 that
• 30:06
  have amped up stress
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: and anxiety levels.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: From our divided political world that we're in to wars overseas,
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: of course,
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_03: algorithms and social media have put stress and anxiety on steroids,
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: especially in our kids.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: None of that is from God.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_03: And so when we're feeling like our stress is out of control...
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_03: God comes to us with these promises and says,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: cast all your cares onto Jesus because he cares for you.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: And when I was going through the worst of my anxiety,
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: one of the books I read,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: this person said,
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: delegate upward.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_03: So if you're stressed about something, delegate it upward.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_03: And she was basically saying, cast all your cares onto Jesus.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: And the mental act of saying,
• 30:59
  I'm worried about this and just placing it in God's hands was
• 31:02
  one tool for calming
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_03: down.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus says, why worry?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_03: Can worry add anything?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_03: Can you add another fingernail to your hand by worrying about it?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: Well, no, of course not.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so Jesus says, take a breath.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: Let tomorrow's worries be tomorrow's worries.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_03: But I want to add this.
• 31:28
  When I was going through anxiety,
• 31:31
  I would once in a while hear sermons about
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: that talk about God doesn't want us to be anxious.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so if you're anxious, you're doing something wrong.
• 31:42
  And rather than being a promise or a word of hope,
• 31:45
  it became a word of guilt and shame.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: And that's not what Jesus is saying at all.
• 31:53
  Jesus is saying,
• 31:54
  I want to relieve you of this because I know it hurts you.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's not good for you.
• 32:01
  But sometimes we need more than just the promise to cast all
• 32:04
  our cares onto Jesus.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we need help.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: People with addictions need help.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: People with cancer need help.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: People with diabetes need help.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: People with anxiety out of control need help.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: People with depression need help.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_03: And one of the gifts that God gives to us are people who can help us.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so whether it's seeing a therapist or
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: or it's learning breathing exercises,
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_03: or it's even getting some medication because sometimes for people it's a
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_03: biochemical problem.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:39
  These are all tools that God has given to us to help us manage
• 32:42
  our stress and
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: anxiety,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: not to feel guilty about it,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_03: but to manage it.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so I, yes, these are gifts that God has given to us.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes they can become, they get out of control.
• 32:58
  But then Jesus gives us other gifts to help us manage those
• 33:02
  things that have gotten
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: out of control.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_03: And so for people who are feeling stressed and anxious,
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_03: and the three of us can tell you a lot of stories about that,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: there is help,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: right?
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: And I can't tell you I never have high anxiety levels.
• 33:20
  I still get them from time to time,
• 33:22
  but not nearly like I used to because I got the help.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_03: I've done the work.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I see all of that as gifts that God has given to me because God says,
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_03: don't be anxious about anything.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's not meant to guilt us.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_03: He's just saying, let go of that stuff.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: Don't be anxious about it.
• 33:44
  But in everything with prayer and petition,
• 33:45
  with thanksgiving,
• 33:48
  let us be made known to God.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_03: Give the stress to God.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: But sometimes we need some tools to help us with that.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_03: you've,
• 33:56
  you've had experience and then John will let you have the last
• 33:58
  word on that because
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_03: you've had experiences with it as well.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: Both positive and negative.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I, uh, in, in light of the question, um,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: I agree with you, Tim.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I've had very paralyzing anxiety.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was just listening and reminiscing.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: I knew you struggled with it, but I went to the emergency.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember you coming to see me in the emergency when I was like you.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: So it was like two people that struggled in a similar way were both...
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: facing that, or at least you were there for me, but I have learned...
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: some tools and,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: and I was able really to put,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: to put it away or not so much put it away,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: but I mean,
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: manage it.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I lost Jonathan,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: panic,
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: a little different shape of anxiety started showing up,
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: but I have learned so much from it.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's also, um,
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: increase my empathy for others,
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: honed,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: like I'm already off the charts sensitive,
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: but in terms of being gracious.
• 35:22
  And so I see it as not,
• 35:27
  I don't want to sound like,
• 35:29
  well,
• 35:30
  it doesn't matter.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: I see it.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: It has been hindsight.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: And as I look at it now, I don't see it as an enemy.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: I see it as
• 35:41
  my body is telling me something and there are really good
• 35:44
  reasons why it's doing
• 35:46
  that and if it wasn't doing that i might have other things that
• 35:51
  take place that
• 35:52
  would be much worse or or derail me in other ways so i do see
• 35:56
  it as um an asset in
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: those ways yeah well said yeah yeah
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I would just add that,
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:07
  there's for those folks that are listening that are working
• 36:10
  through some anxiety,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: depression,
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: panic,
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: those kind of things.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Number one, you're not broken.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's not something wrong with you.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately,
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: because it involves some mental health stuff,
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: culturally speaking,
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: there's we allow some stigma to be attached to that.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to eradicate that.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_01: Tim,
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: what he said earlier was,
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_01: if there was,
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: if you had cancer in your thigh,
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: you would go get help for that.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I encourage people to look at it like that.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing wrong with you.
• 36:42
  And then also,
• 36:43
  I think one of the big learnings for me was just,
• 36:45
  you know,
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: and Terry just said this,
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna say it a little bit differently,
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: but the,
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: the feelings that go along with that are not something that,
• 36:54
  that you look to eradicate so much as you look to see more as a
• 36:59
  companion that,
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: that walks with you in some uncomfortable ways.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: that was really big for me to understand that both of those things,
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: and really want to be encouraging for anyone.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone who's, who's hearing my voice right now, you know, uh,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: Excellent tools,
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: guides in the Bible,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: excellent tools that Tim mentioned that are available for you and people,
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 37:22
  through church or whatever community and standing by to give
• 37:24
  you a hand in that
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: way.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's right.
• 37:28
  Um,
• 37:28
  so I know that John has some excellent questions that he didn't
• 37:32
  get to today.
• 37:33
  So we're going to do a question box part two and we'll get back
• 37:37
  to some of those
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: because there's some,
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_03: there's some good ones in that pile.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: So we're going to come back to those next time.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, Terry, thank you so much.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, thank you.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_03: It's always good to have a famous person's perspective on all this.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: So good.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: So good.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_03: And John, we did the discussion today.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_03: And for all of you listening,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: hey,
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: if you find this podcast helpful,
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: please share it with your friends.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: And we'll be back with you next time.
• 38:01
  The Deep Grace Diving Podcast with Terry Summers,
• 38:06
  John D.
• 38:06
  Burgess,
• 38:07
  and Tim Wright.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, everyone.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.