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Off Record: Surviving Psychosis (with Carolynn Murray) · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

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  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
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  Speaker 2: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
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  Speaker 2: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
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  Speaker 2: Exactly Right Media. Welcome to the Knife Off Record. I'm
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  Speaker 2: Patia Eaton.
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  Speaker 1: I'm Hannah Smith, and today we're speaking with Carolyn Murray.
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  Speaker 1: She has a great YouTube channel called Psychotic in Seattle.
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  Speaker 2: So I came across Carolyn's YouTube channel because I've always
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  Speaker 2: just you know, working in true crime, right, I've seen
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  Speaker 2: a lot of headlines about psychosis and you hear about
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  Speaker 2: these incredibly violent acts that are committed when people are
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  Speaker 2: in psychosis. But I didn't know much about it, and
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  Speaker 2: particularly like the experience of being in psychosis, right Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: in Krolyn's YouTube channel is really this open book, and
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  Speaker 2: so I thought it would just be really interesting to
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  Speaker 2: have a conversation with her.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's so valuable to speak with someone like
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  Speaker 1: her who has gone through these experiences of psychosis. She'll
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  Speaker 1: get into it talking about her diagnosis and is currently
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  Speaker 1: in a place in her life where she is healthy
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  Speaker 1: and stable and supported and is able to speak about
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  Speaker 1: her experiences in a way that she can communicate to
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  Speaker 1: people who haven't gone through that what she's experienced, and
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  Speaker 1: I think it's so valuable because it just creates a
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  Speaker 1: lot of understanding and empathy.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, also, if someone is experiencing symptoms
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  Speaker 2: and maybe looking for a similar shared experience, think her
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  Speaker 2: channel is. You know, she's not a doctor, but she
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  Speaker 2: is someone who is like very relatable, and I think
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  Speaker 2: just her authenticity and vulnerability and speaking about it is
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  Speaker 2: maybe a safe space for someone who's curious about what
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  Speaker 2: they might be experiencing. Yeah, Carolyn has her own curiosity
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  Speaker 2: about psychosis, and she's coming to it from this unique
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  Speaker 2: perspective of having experienced it, and so yeah, I think
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  Speaker 2: everyone will be really interested to hear what she has
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  Speaker 2: to say.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get into it. This episode mentions an incident
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  Speaker 1: of self harm. Please take care wall listening. If you
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  Speaker 1: are in the United States or its territories. The nine
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  Speaker 1: to eight to eight Suicide and Crisis Lifeline is available
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  Speaker 1: twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, three
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  Speaker 1: hundred and sixty five days a year. You can call
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  Speaker 1: or text nine to eight eight to connect with a
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  Speaker 1: trained crisis counselor.
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  Speaker 2: Carolyn. Thank you so much for taking the time to
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  Speaker 2: speak with us today.
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  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm glad to be here.
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  Speaker 1: Can you start off by just telling us a little
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  Speaker 1: bit about yourself.
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  Speaker 3: I'm Carolyn Murray and I am a lot of things.
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  Speaker 3: I'm an artist, I'm a mediocre musician. I make a
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  Speaker 3: lot of mental health content online under the name Psychotic
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  Speaker 3: in Seattle. I focus specifically on psychosis because that has
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  Speaker 3: affected me the most, and I really just try to
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  Speaker 3: educate people about it and spread awareness of what it
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  Speaker 3: is and help family members through it. Especially.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I came across your YouTube channel, which we'll talk
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  Speaker 2: more about, but I knew immediately I wanted to reach
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  Speaker 2: out because as someone who works in true crime, and
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  Speaker 2: I end up reading a lot of crime headlines, and
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  Speaker 2: you know, one thing that I see from time to
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  Speaker 2: time is crimes related to psychosis, or crimes that take
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  Speaker 2: place while someone is in a state of psychosis. And
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  Speaker 2: I think maybe a lot of us have a curiosity
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  Speaker 2: about what that looks and feels like to experience. But
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  Speaker 2: I also want to make sure we talk about from
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  Speaker 2: your perspective, what is misunderstood about the experience and living
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  Speaker 2: with any sort of mental illness where psychosis could be present.
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  Speaker 2: So I would love to just start out with a
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  Speaker 2: little bit about you and your childhood, where you grew up.
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  Speaker 3: I'm from Chicago, Illinois. I was born in the city,
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  Speaker 3: but then I was raised out in the suburbs. And
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  Speaker 3: I come from a long line of people with mental illness,
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  Speaker 3: but we didn't really know that for a long time.
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  Speaker 3: A lot of people in my family are diagnosed with
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  Speaker 3: mental illnesses, but you know, for my mom, she wasn't
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  Speaker 3: diagnosed until like her fifties. So growing up around you
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  Speaker 3: know a mentally ill parent, she has bipolar disorder, you
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  Speaker 3: see a lot of mania, You see a lot of hyperactivity,
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  Speaker 3: and you know reckless behaviors and just think it's normal.
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  Speaker 3: My hometown in general was struggling a lot with mental
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  Speaker 3: illness when I was in high school, and we had
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  Speaker 3: I had a string of suicides in my high school,
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  Speaker 3: and so that kind of opened the conversation for mental
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  Speaker 3: health within our community. Was that the first time you
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  Speaker 3: had thought about mental health, even though, as you said,
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  Speaker 3: looking back, it was present in your life, but had
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  Speaker 3: you ever really like taken time to consider that before.
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  Speaker 3: I honestly didn't know anything about mental health until it
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  Speaker 3: reached a breaking point for me because I grew up depressed.
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  Speaker 3: I had depression from a really really young age, but
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  Speaker 3: I didn't know but we're depressed. I didn't know what
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  Speaker 3: mental illness was. I'd never heard of it. And when
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  Speaker 3: it got to the point that my twin sister was
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  Speaker 3: getting into therapy, I realized, oh, there's a name for this,
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  Speaker 3: Like this is actually a thing. I had no idea
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  Speaker 3: until then. And I think I was about sixteen or
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  Speaker 3: seventeen before I finally got help. And at that point,
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  Speaker 3: i'd been depressed most of my life with no idea.
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  Speaker 2: Growing up in a household, in a family that now
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  Speaker 2: in hindsight you look back and see there were signs
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  Speaker 2: of mental illness in the home. When did you first
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  Speaker 2: start experiencing symptoms in your adolescence.
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  Speaker 3: Well, around the time I was in middle school, I
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  Speaker 3: started having suicidal ideations, which was really scary because I
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  Speaker 3: didn't know what that was. I didn't know like why
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  Speaker 3: I was so fixated on death. And then like the
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  Speaker 3: older I got, the more it came into like planning
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  Speaker 3: a suicide and making attempts. And then I think I
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  Speaker 3: had a really bad attempt when I was seventeen that
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  Speaker 3: kind of like shocked everyone into, oh, this is serious,
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  Speaker 3: we need to handle this now.
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  Speaker 1: Was that the first time that people in your life
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  Speaker 1: you're saying it was a really bad attempt, and you
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  Speaker 1: don't have to go into details, but was it to
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  Speaker 1: the point where people in your life realized what you
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  Speaker 1: were doing and it scared them?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I had tried telling people once I was aware of
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  Speaker 3: what it was, because, like I said, there were a
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  Speaker 3: lot of suicides in my high school, and so at
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  Speaker 3: that point I knew what I was getting into, and
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  Speaker 3: I tried telling people like, hey, you know, I think
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  Speaker 3: I'm suicidal. You know, I think I might end it,
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  Speaker 3: and they didn't take me seriously. They just thought I
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  Speaker 3: was like an attention seeking teenager and I just wanted
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  Speaker 3: negative attention, and that wasn't the case.
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  Speaker 1: What time period was this?
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  Speaker 2: What year?
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  Speaker 3: I believe it was in two thousand and nine.
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  Speaker 1: I hope that things are different now. You know, we've
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  Speaker 1: all experienced on this call, like the evolution of awareness
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  Speaker 1: of mental health, and back then it just wasn't always
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  Speaker 1: something that there was education or awareness on. But that's
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  Speaker 1: really scary to think that you like told people and
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  Speaker 1: they didn't take you seriously.
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  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Well, in two thousand and nine, that wasn't
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  Speaker 3: something people talked about, at least in my community. And
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  Speaker 3: I think I was diagnosed bipolar type two around them
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  Speaker 3: as well, because I'd started having hypomania.
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  Speaker 2: Then what is hypomania?
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  Speaker 3: So with bipolar disorder, you have depression in mania, and
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  Speaker 3: the mania is really really elevated moods and talking really
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  Speaker 3: fast and making impulsive decisions and staying up for nights
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  Speaker 3: and nights on end. But to everyone else, I just
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  Speaker 3: looked like, you know, this talkative, chatty kid with a
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  Speaker 3: lot of energy, So again, people didn't really see it
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  Speaker 3: for what it was. And it wasn't until my suicide
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  Speaker 3: attempt that you know, we all really focused in on
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  Speaker 3: what's going on with Carolyn.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I think for every person adolescent years, teenagers,
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  Speaker 2: so much of that time internally for a person to
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  Speaker 2: spent figuring out like who they are and wanting to
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  Speaker 2: be accepted by peer groups and family, but also maybe
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  Speaker 2: trying to be themselves and that not necessarily working for
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  Speaker 2: some of those people that you wanted to fit in with.
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  Speaker 2: And I think it sounds like in your case it's
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  Speaker 2: part of why the bigger conversation gets lost, is like
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  Speaker 2: attributed to just she's a kid, you know.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, Like you're too young to go through this. You know,
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  Speaker 3: you're like developing, you don't know yourself.
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  Speaker 2: Right, and so at what point do your symptoms progress
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  Speaker 2: into hallucinations or fixating on things that were not even
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  Speaker 2: making sense to you?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I was eighteen when those symptoms started, and for me,
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  Speaker 3: I tend to be very delusional when I'm in psychosis,
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  Speaker 3: and I believe things. Whether I like can identify that
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  Speaker 3: I'm believing them or not, I can't help but believe them.
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  Speaker 3: So in my first episode, I could tell something was
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  Speaker 3: going on. I just knew that I had these really
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  Speaker 3: crazy beliefs and I couldn't understand why they had such
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  Speaker 3: a grip on me. I knew I was being a
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  Speaker 3: rational but I couldn't helped that from happening. I think
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  Speaker 3: all these really violent things were happening that weren't and
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  Speaker 3: I was like constantly second guessing myself. Am I crazy?
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  Speaker 3: What is this?
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  Speaker 1: Like?
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  Speaker 3: I don't know what's happening to me, but I know
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  Speaker 3: something bad is happening and I can't identify it.
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  Speaker 2: There was one moment you spoke about in a video
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  Speaker 2: of yours where you start becoming sort of afraid of
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  Speaker 2: your cat and this association with a movie. Yeah, I
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  Speaker 2: thought that was a really insightful example. I wonder if
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  Speaker 2: you would share it here.
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  Speaker 3: It was so surreal because this is my cat I'd
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  Speaker 3: had since I was in first grade, and I loved her.
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  Speaker 3: But then after I think I saw like a clip
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  Speaker 3: of Nightmare on Elm Street, and I thought my cat
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  Speaker 3: was Freddy Krueger, and I was so afraid of her
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  Speaker 3: that I was like running to my bed to get
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  Speaker 3: away from her. And I could tell myself that didn't
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  Speaker 3: make sense and there was no way that was possible,
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  Speaker 3: But there was just as strong of a belief that
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  Speaker 3: she really was Freddy Krueger that I didn't want to
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  Speaker 3: mess around with that, you know, I wanted to be sure.
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  Speaker 1: Can you kind of like explain that a little bit,
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  Speaker 1: because I think we've all had the experience of watching
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  Speaker 1: a scary movie and then suddenly it's like, is there
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  Speaker 1: someone in my house? Or like freaking yourself out? Was
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  Speaker 1: it like that or was it different? Did you look
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  Speaker 1: at your cat and your cat looked different?
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  Speaker 3: Well, when you watch a scary movie and you leave
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  Speaker 3: with that scared feeling, right, eventually it will pass. Like
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  Speaker 3: maybe you go to bed in the next day you're
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  Speaker 3: not feeling the same way. But this is something that
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  Speaker 3: wouldn't go away. I didn't see her any differently, but
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  Speaker 3: you know, I figured, well, Freddy krue is like a
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  Speaker 3: shape shifter or something, so he could be any form.
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  Speaker 3: And every time I would try to come up with
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  Speaker 3: a justification for why that wasn't true, like, well, she
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  Speaker 3: can't possibly be Freddy Krueger because YadA, YadA, YadA, this
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  Speaker 3: part in my brain would go, well, what if and
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  Speaker 3: sort of elaborate on that and have a new explanation,
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  Speaker 3: like there's nothing that could change my mind because my
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  Speaker 3: brain had some kind of a workaround for any solution
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  Speaker 3: I might find.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, was this something you could share with anyone in
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  Speaker 2: your household that you were having this fear about.
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  Speaker 3: I thought it was so ridiculous that I kept it
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  Speaker 3: to myself because there was this part of me that
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  Speaker 3: knew this doesn't make any sense, and so I just
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  Speaker 3: kept it to myself. I kept a lot of it
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  Speaker 3: to myself for a long time, until the beliefs just
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  Speaker 3: became so violent that I was scared enough to go
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  Speaker 3: to the hospital.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like this fear of your cat. This
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  Speaker 2: example of that fear is both something you were understanding
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  Speaker 2: was not real, but also just something that had really
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  Speaker 2: taken hold in your mind and was hard to put
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  Speaker 2: to rest. These symptoms, then do they continue progressing and
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  Speaker 2: what leads to your diagnosis.
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  Speaker 3: So it was my second episode where it reached that
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  Speaker 3: point where I didn't have the ability to differentiate reality anymore.
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  Speaker 3: And that was when I was twenty three and I was,
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  Speaker 3: you know, getting picked up by police for getting lost,
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  Speaker 3: wandering around town not knowing where I was. I didn't
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  Speaker 3: know who I was, and I was taken to the hospital.
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  Speaker 3: It took months for me to even understand what they
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  Speaker 3: were telling me because I just couldn't believe it. When
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  Speaker 3: they said you ask it so effective disorder, I'd think, well,
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  Speaker 3: you know, I know I'm being demonically possessed and that
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  Speaker 3: would be preferable, but I can't believe you.
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  Speaker 2: You know, you use the term wandering, so you're just
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  Speaker 2: walking directionless until someone calls authorities and says that you
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  Speaker 2: need help.
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  Speaker 3: That was one part of it. I really couldn't be
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  Speaker 3: alone with myself because I might, you know, act on
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  Speaker 3: delusions or something like if I thought that my apartment
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  Speaker 3: was bugged. I threw away a lot of my stuff.
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  Speaker 3: Like I thought my jewelry was buckd so I threw
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  Speaker 3: away my jewelry. And the wandering was initially I'm scared
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  Speaker 3: of my apartment. I have to get out of here.
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  Speaker 3: But then once I left, I didn't have anywhere to go,
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  Speaker 3: and I would spend hours just walking.
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  Speaker 1: Were you living by yourself at that time?
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  Speaker 3: I was, Yeah, I had an apartment by myself, and
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  Speaker 3: I just couldn't take care of myself. I couldn't take
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  Speaker 3: care of my hygiene. I couldn't cook for myself because
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  Speaker 3: I was so lost in all of it that I
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  Speaker 3: wouldn't know what time of day it was, or that
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  Speaker 3: I needed to eat. Sometimes I thought that food was
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  Speaker 3: other stuff like human flesh, or I might think that
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  Speaker 3: if I drank water it was poison. So I was
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  Speaker 3: really really unwell.
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  Speaker 1: We've just heard a few stories of people talking about
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  Speaker 1: progression of some mental health disorders and that happening in
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  Speaker 1: this time period. That's just like kind of post high
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  Speaker 1: school early adulthood, which is interesting because that's also the
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  Speaker 1: time when you're you're not like going to high school
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  Speaker 1: every day where there's adults around you're not living with
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  Speaker 1: your parents. And I'm just wondering because it sounds like
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  Speaker 1: by the time you're twenty three things had really changed.
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  Speaker 1: From being able to still go to school but having
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  Speaker 1: these thoughts of my cat is Freddy Krueger, but managing
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  Speaker 1: that in a way like in your own brain and
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  Speaker 1: the outside world still perceiving you, like not perceiving any
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  Speaker 1: of this, and then when you're twenty three, it's like
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  Speaker 1: you can't hide it anymore. But what was like that
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: progression from being sixteen to twenty three, like did you
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  Speaker 1: go to college? Was this like a slow progression or
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  Speaker 1: was there like something that made it happen really quickly.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So there was a break between those two episodes
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  Speaker 3: for a few years where I was relatively okay because
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  Speaker 3: the first time that I was psychotic, I had people
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  Speaker 3: around me who could tell what was going on. I mean,
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  Speaker 3: not to the extent that it was the second time
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  Speaker 3: where I lost all awareness, but I was able to
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  Speaker 3: tell them what's happening is really crazy. I need to
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: go to the hospital. And so I was able to
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  Speaker 3: get on medication that time, but I didn't get a diagnosis,
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  Speaker 3: but I was helped, and then I went to college,
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  Speaker 3: and I had friends there, and you know, it was
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  Speaker 3: a really great time until it wasn't. I started being
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  Speaker 3: really really depressed. In college, I started getting bullied, and
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  Speaker 3: so I left for that reason because of how depressed
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  Speaker 3: I was, the bullying and whatnot, and without anyone around me.
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  Speaker 3: The second time, it just slipped past that point where
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  Speaker 3: I could ask for help, you know, and I didn't
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: have people seeing just how bad it was.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: You mentioned you went out wandering for a long period
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  Speaker 2: of time and you were eventually picked up by police
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  Speaker 2: and hospitalized. Can you talk to us about the incident
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  Speaker 2: leading to your diagnosis and what that was.
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  Speaker 3: Well, getting picked up by police happened a few times.
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  Speaker 3: The first time I was picked up, there weren't any
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: beds in the hospital, so I just got sent to
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: stay with my mom, but I ran away from her
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  Speaker 3: house too, And the second time I was picked up
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  Speaker 3: by the police, they were really abusive towards me, and
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: I think they took advantage of my mental state and
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: how they treated me. They just treated me less than human.
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  Speaker 3: I had no way of protecting myself from abuse, so
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  Speaker 3: they took advantage of that. And then again there wasn't
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  Speaker 3: any beds in the hospital, So I just had to
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  Speaker 3: keep going home until eventually that opened up, and it
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  Speaker 3: was like a month before I could actually get hospitalized.
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  Speaker 3: And at that point I had to be involuntarily hospitalized,
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  Speaker 3: which they had plenty of proof that, you know, I
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: wasn't well enough to admit myself, and that was pretty extreme.
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  Speaker 2: Do you have memories of that time and how you
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: were helped in that setting? If you were helped in
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: that setting.
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  Speaker 3: It's kind of like having memories on top of memories,
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: because I remember the delusions I was having and believing
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: that I was on a spaceship. But if I peel
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: back that memory, I know it was really the psych word.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: I didn't understand what was happening, and I just was
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: in my I was just in my own world, in
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: my own head.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I've listened to a little bit of you speaking
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: on this subject of your hallucinations and memories being sort
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: of one and the same and having to reflect on
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: them in hindsight and sort of discern what was real
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: and what was not when you look back on this time.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: Do you remember them separately or together.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: It's a bit of both. It's kind of like I
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: remember primarily what I thought happened, and I sort of
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: have to piece together the clues of what was around
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: me or what people were saying to realize what actually happened.
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: So there are memories I have that I believed were
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: real for like over ten years before I was able
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: to kind of put context clues together and realize that
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: never actually happened. Like entire people that I thought I
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: was talking to weren't even there, and it would take
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: me years to realize that no one else interacted with
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: them and no one stopped them from harrassing me. For instance,
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: I genuinely can't tell the difference a lot of times,
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: sometimes for years.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: When you were in the hospital, was there a point
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: when you realize or recognized that something was going on
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: with your brain? Were you having trouble understanding that you
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: were dealing with like a mental health disorder?
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: Maybe four months after that I finally realized, because it
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: took a long time for the medicaid to work enough
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: that I could believe it, I had no idea. I
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: absolutely had no idea.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Four months for a medication to start working on is
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: a long time, And over the span of those four months,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: are you hospitalized.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: I wasn't hospitalized the entire time, the symptoms just slowly
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: chipped away. So after I was released from the hospital,
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: I could kind of sort of question what was happening
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: and then go back to having no idea at all.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: And then I'd have like fifteen minutes or maybe an
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: hour of knowing that I was in psychosis but not
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: being able to help it at all. So I might
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: know that I was psychootic but still see hallucinations, and
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: it just chipped away like that for months, until finally
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: I would have like a day or more where I
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: knew I was psychotic and then I wasn't psychotic at all.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: If you're experiencing these symptoms that are sounds like, at
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: certain points quite frightening from an outsider's perspective, it's like, oh,
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: maybe that would feel like a relief, but I know
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: that it's not that simple. What was your diagnosis after that?
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: SCHITZO effective disorder, bipolar type So basically I have both
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: schizophrenia and bipolar disorder in one disorder and schizophrenia.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: I think most of us have some sort of like
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: pop culture idea of what it is from film and TV,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: But what is it?
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: Schizophrenia is a break from reality, and so by that,
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: I mean that you kind of have an extra reality
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: imposed on top of ordinary reality, and this reality only
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: applies to the person going through it. No one else
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: can see or hear anything that's going on, but to
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: this person it is so realistic that even if you
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: were to know what was happening, you might not be
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: able to discern what's real from what's not real. So
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: you might have halcination, which affect all five of your senses.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: You could have visual hallucinations of seeing like shadow people
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: or environments I used to see like outer space all
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: around me. You could have auditory hallucinations, which for most
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: people would be voices, but I would hear other things
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: like doorbells ringing and car engines, which is why it
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: was so hard to tell. It sounds exactly like it.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: Did you were, you know, this secondary reality that sort
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: of overlaid with the reality that the rest of the
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: people are experiencing. As you talked about that you couldn't
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: perceive wasn't real until you know, the medication started kicking in.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Did it have a common theme, Like from some of
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: the things that you've said, it sounds like it was
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: mostly scary. Was it all scary or what was that?
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: Like? Most of it was scary, and then there were
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: some things that were kind of neutral, like when I
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: would hear a doorbell ring that was mostly just annoying
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: because I'd go to check the door and there be
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: no one there. But most of it was really really
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: violence gory, but I was very paranoid. I think maybe
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: the most common theme was just thinking that someone was
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: after me, and on top of that, there'd just be
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: like really horrific sights or thinking just violent, violent things
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: were happening.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: One thing that really made me want to learn more
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: about psychosis and the experience of it because of my
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: work in the quote like true crime genre is the
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: fear that it instills in the people who are experiencing it.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: And you had shared with me an experience with psychosis
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: that you had where you really feared that you had
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: done something and what that felt like for you.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I was married at the time. This was my
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: third episode, and it was a particularly dark episode. I
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: was up late that night and my husband had gone
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: to sleep before me, and when I came into our bedroom,
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: I thought he was dead, and I thought I was
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: the one that had killed him. I believed that I'd
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: caught him up with an axe, and like there he
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: was lying in bed, looking cut up into pieces, and
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: it was horrifying and I didn't remember doing it, but
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: I still believe i'd done it, and I was so
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: scared that I ran away from home that night. I
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: hitchhiked into town. I wandered around until I found a
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: police officer and I turned myself into her and said
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: that I'd killed my husband, and fortunately she took me
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: to the psych ward instead of the police station.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Okay, just so I am clear on this. So at
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: the time, you were married and you were living with
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: your husband. One day you walked into the bedroom and
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: what you saw was this horrible and gruesome scene where
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: it was clear that he had been killed, had been murdered,
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: and you immediately believed that you were the one that
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: killed him. So you then left the apartment and found
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: a police officer and turned yourself in. How are you
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: feeling in that moment?
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: Oh gosh, it was terrifying. It was the worst feeling
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: in the world. I felt so wracked with guilt and
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: grief because I really did love my husband, and it
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: killed me to think that he was dead. And I
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: felt just heartbroken that I thought I was the one
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: who had done it. I was frantic, I felt desperate.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: I didn't know what to do, but I couldn't live
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: with myself. I just couldn't live with myself for having
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: done that. So that's why I turned myself in because
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: I didn't want to carry that burden and not be accountable.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: Which is wild to me that that was my response
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: at the time, because I don't think many people who
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: commit a crime like that would have that response to
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: turn themselves in like that. Yeah.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's so scary to think that you actually did
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: that and living in that reality. Was that before or
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: after what you previously talked about when you were twenty
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: three living alone and went to the psych hospital and
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: sort of had your diagnosis.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: This was after. This was when I was twenty five
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: and I had gone off of my medication because once
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: I was stable on medication and I didn't have symptoms anymore,
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: I thought, oh, well, it's just a fluke, you know,
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: I'm fine. I don't need these. So that's how I
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: learned real fast to stay on my medication because it
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: was only a few weeks before I was psychotic again.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: So you ran out of your apartment, found a police
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: officer and immediately confess because you think you've murdered your husband.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: And fortunately this person takes you to a psych hospital.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: It doesn't just arrest you. Do you know how she
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: knew that you were having a psychotic episode and that
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: you hadn't actually just killed someone.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: No idea. Oh, I'm just really fortunate that she did
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: something about what I was saying must have just sounded,
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: you know, clearly psychotic.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: And so how long were you hospitalized after that episode
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: of psychosis and what did your recovery look.
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: Like from that episode where I thought I'd killed him.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: I think I was in the hospital maybe a month,
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: And it was like the time before where it took
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: several months for the medication to work well enough that
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: I would come out of the episode. And it was
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: really horrifying after the fact to realize everything that had happened,
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: because when I was in psychosis, I had no idea
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: that i'd married someone. Because I met him while I
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: was in psychosis and married him two weeks later, I
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: had no idea I was in an abusive marriage. I had,
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: you know, no money anymore, because you'd taken all my money.
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: I had no way out of the relationship. It was horrifying,
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: and of course I had no idea going through it.
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: I thought I was in this little fairy land where
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: I had this husband who was God and he was
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: going to protect me from demons after my soul. To
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: find out none of that was real was about as
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: scary as the psychosis, because all of a sudden, I
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: was just legally bound to some stranger that I didn't
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: even know.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Wow, So you had gone off your meds when you
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: were like twenty five ish because you'd been like pretty
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: stable for a couple of years, and you didn't realize that,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: you know, you were starting to have symptoms again of psychosis.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: And it was during that time that you met and
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: married this man.
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And so I got out of the marriage pretty
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: much immediately, as soon as I wasn't psycho. I was
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: actually still psychotic, but I was well enough to know
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: what had happened, and I was able to get a
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: legal annulment, and so our marriage was absolved in court.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: And were you in contact with any of your family
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: during this time?
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: He wouldn't let me talk to any of my friends
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: or family, and I wasn't allowed to tell anyone I
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: was married, So I was really isolated because he had
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: me staying in this house with him, and I couldn't leave.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: It was like out in the farmland. So I had
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: to like literally run away from home to get away
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: from him.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: Where were you living at that time?
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: Out in Washington? So I'm from Chicago, but I moved
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: out here to Washington and I was living in a
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: town called Burlington, which is maybe like an hour north
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: of Seattle.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean very rural. Yeah, very isolated if you're
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: in the wrong situation. Oh yeah, So once you were
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: able to have the marriage absolved, you said it was annulled.
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: Is that right?
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: Where do you go at that point to sort of
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: start rebuilding?
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: Well, my mom let me stay on her couch for
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: a couple of weeks, and then one of my friends
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: invited me to live with him and I got sober
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: because a large part of my psychosis was smoking marijuana,
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: which makes it so much worse. So I got sober
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: and moved into sober living and then just kind of
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: got up on my feet from there.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: When you are on your medication and you feel like
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: your mind is clear and everything is stable, what is
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: your outlook for your life? Like, how has this impacted
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: the way that you look at your future?
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: I feel a lot more hopeful about my future now.
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: For the first few years, it was really bleak because
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: it was hard to accept that I had a mental illness.
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: I had to go on disability benefits, and that really
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: depressed me. I didn't like the idea that I was disabled.
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: But now you know, I've made this really great life
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: for myself where I make a lot of art and
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: I do like craft fairs and stuff, and I do
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: my mental health advocacy online and so I feel a
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: lot better because I've sort of like paved the way
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: for my own future. That's a little unconventional, but it
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: works for me.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you are incredibly open online, and I imagine it's
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: resonating with a lot of people who either are going
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: through something like what you have been through, or a
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: loved one or a friend. Why is it important to
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: you to share online about psychosis and how it's impacted you.
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: Before I ever spoke to anyone about psychosis, I felt
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: so lonely. I was really ashamed of everything I'd been through.
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: I was resentful, I guess towards myself for even just
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: going through it. I just hated my brain for betraying
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: me like that. I felt isolated and no one was
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: talking about it, so I felt like the only person
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: that this stuff had happened to. I met a woman
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: with Schitzo effective disorder who just shared openly about it,
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: and I had a conversation with her, and that's kind
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: of what sparked it. Was she was the first person
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: I'd ever talked about psychosis with, and it blew my mind.
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: I like immediately started to feel better about myself knowing
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: that a lot of what she'd been through I'd been
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: through too. And then when I started talking about it
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: online and other people were kind of sharing that same
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: perspective of like, Wow, you know, I've never heard anyone
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: talk about this like you have, like I can really
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: relate to you. It helped me because other people had
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: been through what I've been through. But also I was
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: realizing that same like isolation i'd been and that loneliness
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: affected so many people and I didn't. I just it
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: breaks my heart to think other people go through what
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: I've been through at all.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: You've also shared about how people can best show up
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: to support friends or loved ones with schizo effective disorder
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: or be something like it. How can people do that?
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: I honestly think the best way to support a person
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: is like acts of service, like helping them around the
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: house if they're not capable of doing their dishes or cooking,
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: being able to help them with those basic needs. My
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: sister was my caregiver. She lived with me, and she
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: was basically, as she said, a glorified babysitter because she
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: mostly just kept me safe from wandering away. She kept
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: me safe from any delusions that might make me want
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: to hurt myself. She cooked meals for us. She thinks
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: that it wasn't a big deal, but it was a
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: really really really big deal to me. Like I needed
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: a lot of emotional support, and she comforted me a lot.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: You know. She would tell me that I was safe,
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: which I really need is to hear, you know, just
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: caring for a person as if they're themselves, not treating
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: them any different, because I didn't like being treated like
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: I was some kind of a kid or less than human.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: You know, like this is still your family member, this
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: is still your friend. They're still in there. Maybe they
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: don't seem like they're in there, but they are, and
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: you just wanted to be treated like a normal person,
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: like anyone else.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: What do you feel like is most missing from the
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: conversation or the headlines when someone does commit a violent
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: act in psychosis.
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: To me, it seems like people think there's a choice.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: Like to me, it seems like people think these people
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: in psychosis that are committing acts of violence are in
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: any way choosing to do that, And that's not the case.
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: If you think of like survival situations, people have to
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: make really difficult decisions and they might not get a
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: lot of time to make that decision, Like it's pretty dire.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: So when you have people that are acting on fear
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: or they're acting in what they think is self defense,
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: they're not thinking through these actions. They're not necessarily thinking
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: in their right mind to choose to do something like that.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: It's usually something against their character that they would never ever, ever,
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: ever do. So this isn't something that's like a decision
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: made by someone in their right mind. This is a
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: decision made for them by an illness that's taking control
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: of them.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: How does that make you think about your relationship with Like,
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know your brain, because in some senses, I
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: feel like it'd be easy to feel like betrayed when
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: you're out of those psychosis episodes thinking back, like betrayed
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: by your own brain, you know. And I don't want
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: to give too much meaning to something that might be
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: meaningless in psychosis. But it's interesting thinking about how you
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: were trapped in this scenario with this man who had
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: convinced you to marry him. And it's interesting that your brain,
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: like you did get out of it, but in this
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: really unconventional way where you thought you had committed a
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: horrific homicide and the scene, but really you were like
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: that was like you getting out of this abusive scenario
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: or the first step. So I'm just curious, like how
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: do you think about your relationship with your brain, Like
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: does it make you angry? Is there a part of
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: you that has come to peace with it or understanding
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: or what do you think about that.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: I just feel like when I'm not well, I can't
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: trust myself. I can't trust my brain. My brain has
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: just the worst intentions for me. But at the same time,
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: in that situation, I am grateful that there must have
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: been some kind of survival instinct in me that recognized
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: this is a situation I need to get out of,
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: Like part of me really does think that I had
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: that delusion and hallucination in part because my brain was
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: trying to tell me this is really bad. You need
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: to get out of here. I don't think I could
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: have gotten help if it hadn't been for my brain
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: just deciding to do that really violent thing. So part
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: of me is really grateful that some weird little corner
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: of my brain decided to help out, but mostly like
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: I can't trust that guy in my head, that that
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: brain of mind has a totally different plan for me.
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense. And then the other question I
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: had was that something we hear a lot in the
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: media about people specifically with you know, schizophrenia or different
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: versions of that, that oftentimes you'll hear about a resistance
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: to taking medication. And maybe that's just because you only
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: hear about the people who are resistant to taking it.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: But I'm curious to ask you about it because it
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: sounds like you recognize that the medication has helped you
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: a lot. What is your feeling about, you know, your
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: relationship with the medication.
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: It's hard to take medication at the beginning, because you know,
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: I think that I was a robot and you can't
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: give medication to a robot or I think the medication
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: was poison or like a chip they were trying to
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: track me with. And that's when it's so difficult, because
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: that's when you need it the most, and that's when
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: a person is like the most resistant to taking it.
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: But now that I'm on it and I've kind of
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: like built that momentum of taking it every day, I'm
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: so enormously grateful for my medication. It was really hard
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: to become med compliant and take it every day. Sometimes
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: I'd be okay with taking it. Sometimes I would really
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: think it was poison. It was one of the hardest
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: hurdles in coming out of psychosis for sure.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And so right now it's been I think you
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: said it's been five years since you have had a
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: psychonic episode.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: I think yeah, in May of this Oh wow, was
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: it March? I think it's been six years now. Actually, wow,
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, as of March. Yeah, that seems like
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: a huge moment. That's a lot of time. That's the
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: most I've ever gone. That's really incredible to me.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: That's awesome. Does this also mean that your auditory hallucinations
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: like the engine rev or, the doorbell ringing. Do you
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: not hear those? Currently?
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: Most of the time, I don't have hallucinations at all,
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: but even on medication, when I'm really really stressed, I
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: will hear things. So, for instance, I was really stressed
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: recently and I heard a couple voices one day, but
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: that went away, which was great. Before that, I had
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: a really stressful job where I was hearing my name
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: being called and people talking to me like all the time.
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: It was really annoying because I couldn't tell if it
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: was real or not, so I knew I was hallucinating,
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: but it just sounded so realistic that I could like
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: hear the direction it was coming from and the volume
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: and the sound of the voice. And the only way
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: I could tell is if I turned and there was
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: no one there. So it doesn't happen that often. It
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: just happens when I'm really really stressed.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: That's so interesting and so great to hear that. You know,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: years has passed since having an episode. That feels like
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: a big chunk of your life.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, it's so wonderful. My life is so
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: much better now. It takes years to undo all of
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: that damage. Seriously, because even once you get rid of
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: hallucinations and delusions. You lose a lot of cognitive abilities too,
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: or at least I did, so I struggled with reading,
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: comprehension and memory and attention and focus and you know,
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: things that had come really easily before. So even that
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: alone can take years to recover from, or just the
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: trauma of it all takes years. I had to work
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: on a lot of it in therapy.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: Because these experiences real or not feel real to you,
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: and that would be very traumatic to live through.
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a real trauma. It's not a real experience necessarily,
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: but it's a real trauma because I take away the
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: feelings and the memories and the fear from it as
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: if it really did happen.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: That makes total sense. That's really interesting.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: I guess I never thought about that like I thought
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: about the trauma of if I think about someone going
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: through psychosis of you know, when you talked about not
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: being able to function or take care of yourself or
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: hold down a job or know where you were, and
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: that whole chunk of time that you're sort of in
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: this state feels innately traumatic. But I hadn't thought about
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: the things that you saw, heard, tasted, experienced that were
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: part of the psychosis that weren't real, Like you came
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: to eventually understand they weren't real. But if you think
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: that you've murdered someone, you're still experiencing all of that
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: emotion and trauma and shock that someone who did murder someone,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: or someone that walked in and saw their husband dead
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: would experience. Is that what you're saying, Like all of
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: that still lives in your body?
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, Like I distinctly remember what it felt like
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: to be a killer. Like it's a horrible feeling that
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't wish on anyone. It's a terrible, terrible feeling.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: And you know, having that reaction that like very very
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: human reaction before really thinking, oh wait, well, let's think
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: rationally about this, you know, because I couldn't having that
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: reaction that anyone would have if it were real. It's
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: just as realistic to me as if it had really happened.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: So I feel so many feelings related to things that
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: are not even possible, but I reacted to them the
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: way anyone would if it really did happen.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: And so your support system, Now, do you live close
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: by your sister or you know, can you tell us
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: a little bit about how you're doing today.
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: I live on my own again, which is working out
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: for me just great. You know, I have a lot
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: of independence, and I'm involved in the mental health recovery community.
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: So I have a lot of friends like me who
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: have schizo effective or schizophrenia, and it's really nice to
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: be around people that understand and relate. So I have
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: a lot of support. My family lives in Chicago, but
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: I see them every once in a while and they're
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: still very much a part of my support team.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: That's great. Well, Carolyn, thank you so much for speaking
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: with us today. And I think anyone who comes across
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: your YouTube channel looking for support or hope or just
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: shared experience will be really glad to have found it.
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: Thank you. I sure hope. So I like to help people.
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: I try.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we really appreciate you opening up and telling us
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: about your experiences. And what's the name of your channel.
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: It's called Psychotic in Seattle.
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: You can find me by my name Carolyn Murray, and
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: I also am on Instagram and TikTok and Facebook under
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: the same name Psychotic in Seattle.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: Great. Well, thank you so much, Carolyn.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you guys so much. This has been wonderful.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: That was so fascinating to me. I have never talked
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: to anyone like that before, like or had a conversation
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: in that vein before.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean getting to ask Carolyn all of the
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: questions that I've had about it without feeling like, you know,
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: it feels invasive to ask someone about like symptoms that
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: they experience as part of their mental illness. But I
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: think it's helpful to have these conversations and try to
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: understand because that experience gets lost when we read about
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: crimes where psychosis has played a role, because then there's
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: often another victim, right, who is highlighted far more than
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: obviously the person who committed the act. Yeah, but then
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: it's like in them that was their mental illness. Yeah.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: I mean it gets tricky, right, because if someone commits
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: a horrible crime in psychosis, it's still a crime.
• 44:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: So that's like a really sticky area. But I do
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: think a lot of times the headline sort of reduce
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: a person to a diagnosis or mental illness and we
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: lose like the whole person aspect of it. And speaking
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: with Carolyn was just so helpful and understanding her experience
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: and how scary it was for her when she was
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: in there like experiencing psychosis and trying to figure it out,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: like she's trying to help herself and sort through this
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: situation that you know, it's almost like she's battling her
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: own mind, and how scary that really was. And I
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: really appreciated also her thoughts about support in her life
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: and how vital that has been, just having like really
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: loving present support in her life. And I know that
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: that's also probably really complicated for some people who have
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: family members who deal with mental illness and psychosis. But
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: even just the conversation around taking medication, I appreciated her
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: thoughts about some of the barriers and how tricky it
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: can be, like when you know you need it, but
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: then your brain is telling you you don't need it.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: Because you're feeling great, And why would you take this
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: like incredibly strong medication if you're feeling great, Like it's
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: counterintuitive and if your brain is telling you that, you
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: know it's also it's not like out in the world,
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: someone with schizo effective disorder knows a bunch of other
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: people going through it that they can ask right somewhat rare,
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: and I actually looked into that and it looks like
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: schizo effective disorder affects approximately zero point three two point
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: five percent of the general population, which is about one
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: in every two to three hundred people. That's according to
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: Yale Medicine. And so that's why I think her, you know,
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: speaking on her YouTube channel so candidly about her experience
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: is it's just so great that she's so open about it.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: And I certainly like was fascinated by parts of the conversation.
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's just like a more big curiosity or something,
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: but learning how their memories are affected by their hallucinations,
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, I had never considered that before.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: No, or even the trauma that memories can cause, even
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: if they're not a reflection of reality. That was something
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about. Right when Carolyne talked about believing
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: that she had killed her husband, how traumatic that is
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: if that feels real to you?
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like I think all of us, at some
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: point or another have woken up from just like your
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: everyday nightmare and been so relieved that it wasn't real. Yeah,
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: and you know, but then you just go on and
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: it's not a memory. You typically can't even remember those
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: a day after they happen. Fades away, fades away. Yeah,
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: maybe you remember a little bit if you immediately tell someone.
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: But you know, Carolyn lives with a lot of those
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: memories because they are i think she said, superimposed over
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: her actual reality. And yeah, that is that is very traumatic.
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: She also spoke about, you know, waiting for beds at hospitals. Yeah,
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: Carolyn brought this experience of having to call back and say,
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: is there a bed ready? Is there a bed ready?
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Is there a bed ready? And that's something I had
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: learned happens from that podcast Lost Patience, where you know,
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: even if you were ready and willing to check in
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: to get help, you may just not be able to.
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: I haven't listened to that season yet. I listened to
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: the second season Adults in the Room, which I loved,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: So I need to go back and listen to Lost Patients.
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: But what.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: Generally is the reason for that of their not being
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: beds available?
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: I think a lack of funding is the reason. But yeah,
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: one thing I really appreciated about that podcast is they
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: talked about this. They never used the word broken system
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: because they talked a lot about how the system isn't broken.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: This is just how this system operates and that's why
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: it's a problem.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Wow, that's a really great differentiation.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like there's no excuse for why this is
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: operating in this way. And you know, there's really tragic
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: stories in that series about people who just didn't get
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: the help that they should have had.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: And you hear about people getting turned away or released
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: from psychiatric hospitals, maybe in ways that might not be
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: beneficial to their health. And I don't know if that's
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: also just an issue of not having enough room or
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: lack of funding.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: Or maybe it's an insurance thing. I mean, I think
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: maybe a lot of us by now have heard about
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: the Lindsay Clancy case happening and possible postpartum psychosis. Lindsay
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: Clancy is a mother of three in Massachusetts who's on
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: trial for murdering her children. I mean, it's the most
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: horrific thing that could have happen. And she was a nurse,
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: and she had sought help with her mental health. She
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: was on a lot of medication. I mean, I don't
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: know all of the details, but I believe she was
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: suffering from postpartum psychosis and maybe postpartum depression, a postpartum
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: mood disorder that potentially caused her to do this, and
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: she was, by all accounts friends and family, including her
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: husband and the father of those children, a good mother.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we've been looking for an episode to do in
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: this sort of area. It's hard to do an episode
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: where children are killed. I feel like it's just like
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: that's a really tough topic. But yeah, I do think
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: that doing something on postpartum psychosis is something that we
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: both are really interested in talking about and want to
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: highlight because it happens, and I feel like our society
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: is just not interested in hearing about it, like so
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: much to do with because it's so different. But it's yeah, yeah,
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: and it's like I've had, you know, prelim calls.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know this, Like I spoke to someone
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: a while back who had experienced postpartum psychosis, and I
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: had reached out to her because she had posted on
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: Facebook sharing her experience, and she ultimately wasn't ready to
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: do an interview on a podcast, which I can understand,
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: and her kids are with her and healthy and everyone's
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: doing good now, but she she had to check herself
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: in and she said it was like the most traumatizing
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: experience of her life, and so much fear of losing
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: access to your children because then people become afraid of you.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: And you know, I think those are the stories that
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: maybe don't get talked about because people want to leave
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: it in the past or they don't want the judgment.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: And it's more common, I think than we realize. Yeah,
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: it's hard to watch. But there's a documentary I think
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: it's called When the Bow Breaks and it's produced I
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: think by Brooks Shields and it's about women who have
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: suffered from postpartum psychosis and it's you know, their real accounts,
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: and I mean, look, the stories are really difficult to hear.
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: I'm seeing a scripted movie. This is a horror mystery.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: That's not the right one, not the right one. It's
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: an intense watch. But you know, I think that it
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: certainly gave me a lot of understanding and compassion for
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: people in that situation, and it just my heart goes
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: out to them. That's a living nightmare, truly. Carolyn even
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: said to me and maybe also on our interview, and
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: she certainly speaks about it on her channel her own
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: concerns with motherhood at some point because she is predisposed
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: to having these you know, experiencing psychosis, and you know,
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: it's just like she has to think about so many
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: different things that a lot of us, I think take
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: for granted. Yeah, it's so great that she has her
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: channel psychotic in Seattle and is humanizing this experience and
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: just tell her story and connecting with other people. I
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: think it's so fantastic.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and even if you're just curious, I think there's
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: a normal curiosity that's like, what does the hallucination feel like?
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: She really digs into it. And anyway, I'm just a
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: huge fan. So thank you Carolyn for taking the time
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: to speak with us. We really appreciate it.
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: That's our episode. We will be back next week.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: If you have a story for us, we would love
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: to hear it. Our email is The Knife at exactlyrightmedia
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: dot com, or you can follow us on Instagram at
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: the Knife podcast or a Blue Sky at the Knife Podcast.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced by.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: Me Hannah Smith and me Pasha Ey. Our producers are
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi. This episode was mixed by
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Birds in the Airport.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: Artwork five as Lilac Executive produced by Karen Kilgareff, Georgia
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.