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The Morality of Fame ft Gary Lineker · Think Twice Show

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Opinions are everywhere, just open your phone and you'll see
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them. There's nothing wrong with
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opinions, but the problem is who we choose to listen to because
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the loudest voice isn't always the right one.
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Now, when you're with your friends, speaking your mind, you
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can express yourself freely, but you and I both know that same
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conversation in front of our massive online audience could be
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received very differently, which is low key a problem because
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people hear your words how they want to, irrespective of how you
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meant them. How should we deal with that
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mismatch? Today we're joined by Gary
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Lineker, former English striker and now one of the most
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recognisable voices in the country.
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In the famous words of Uncle Ben, with great power comes
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great responsibility. But what if you didn't even ask
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for that power? What happens then?
1:08
Welcome to Think Twice Today we have a very, very, very special
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episode for you with a very, very, very special man.
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My name is Benz. My name is Samtha.
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And today we have Gary Linaco with us.
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Where's the special guest, Benzie coming?
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You know, I'll give you that intro and the last guest we had,
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I said exactly the same thing I'm.
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Nothing if not predictable. But no, I will start straight
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off. Does status make an opinion more
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valuable? I don't think it does.
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I think an opinion is valuable when it's well thought out,
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considered, and informed. I don't think status necessarily
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makes something more valuable. But I guess what I want to
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explore with both of you is when you hear that question, where
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does your mind go when you're thinking about what is valuable
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and what isn't? That's kind of what I want to
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explore with both of you today. OK, so I'll, I'll use you, Gary,
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as sort of a deal breaker because I'm the opposite.
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I think status makes an opinion more valuable, except if we if
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we take two people with the same opinion and it's equal in
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quality, it's equal in truth, it's equal in intent and one has
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high status and one doesn't. Surely the one with high status
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is more valuable because it has more impact.
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That same opinion has more impact.
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And I sort of went into the idea of what is the value of opinion.
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Sure. And it's, it's, it's two
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reasons. It's either internal or
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external. Internally, it helps you
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understand who you are. It helps you build your
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identity, all the rest of it. Externally, if you say your
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opinion out and you share it, it's because you either want to
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change something or you want to impact something.
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When you're sharing your opinion, you're sharing it for a
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reason. You're not sharing it for no
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reason. Can I ask a question about the
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question? OK.
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When you say valuable, what do you mean by that?
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It'll mean it'll get more listened to, which it probably
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would if someone's got a status platform been more listened to.
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Are you talking? It also depends what the subject
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is. If it's a subject that someone
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is an expert on, then that obviously will be more valuable
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if we've got that status. Yeah, I just don't think
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opinions exist in a vacuum. So they always exist within
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content. Sure.
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And when they're shared, they're shared amongst people.
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And if they're shared amongst people, the person whose opinion
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reaches more people, surely it's more valuable.
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The example that came to mind was like, I didn't like children
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not being able to have free school meals.
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You probably are the same and you probably are the same.
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You actually might be able to change something, but we
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probably wouldn't. But Marcus Rashford could and he
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had the same opinion that we had and his opinion was more
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valuable just because he was able to change government policy
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with that opinion. So that's why I think it has to
3:59
be more valuable. I I guess before I push back,
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Gary, I'll hear your answer. What do you think about the
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question? Does status make an opinion more
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valuable? Well, it depends what you mean
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by status. If you mean if you've got a big
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platform, if you're very well known or if you've got status
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within a in within a business, if you've got status, you often
4:21
have respect, but you can also have status because you've done
4:24
something bad. So it really depends on the
4:28
circumstances. But overall, I would say
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probably it does make a difference in terms of, you
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know, whether it's value or the number of people that will
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listen to it that might respect it more than perhaps someone
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that has, I don't know what someone you describe that's with
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no status or less status. Less influence, less influence.
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It's more. Yeah, maybe influence is the
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thing. But I think if you if you frame
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the word as influence, then I think if you've got status, then
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it's unarguable that it's it's of more value.
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Ben's a smiling Chris. Yeah.
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It's 2V1 now. Usually what happens is he's by
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himself and I came up on him with the guest, yeah.
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If you've got a significant status and particularly if you
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talk in, the status is acquired in the subject that you're
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talking about. Yeah.
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Then obviously you have more influence and more value.
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The interesting way of doing it is if if the person with that's
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perhaps not well known or has little status, if he knows more
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about the subject you're talking about than the person that has.
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Status. Real status, then that's
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different, yeah. But it doesn't mean to say the
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person with status if he if he spouts nonsense.
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So it's it's kind of difficult. Question the thing, though,
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That's the That's the conundrum. Yeah, I guess.
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I guess both of you have taken not not, I'm not saying that
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this is necessarily like how you're thinking about it, but
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you've leaned on the side of value equals impact.
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But I don't think that's necessarily true because you can
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have status and like you said, Gary, you could say anything you
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could you could say something that isn't grounded in fact
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isn't considered and doesn't take the full context into into
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account. And if you do that, then your
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opinion in and of itself doesn't have the merit though it might
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get because you. Get if you get 2 people in there
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and one's really clever on all sorts of things and he's really
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brilliant, but he wants to argue that the Earth is flat and then
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you get someone that is actually generally an idiot but he does
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realise the planet is round, then then there's no value in
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the person with with greater status.
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I think that's probably a quite extreme example.
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I mean, I mean, I can think of some examples on on the Internet
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right now or in the past. I think Jordan Peterson comes to
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mind. So he's a doctor.
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He's a doctor. I know it says yeah, he's had a
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rough couple of. Years very dreadful and it seems
6:53
to me. But anyway.
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But he, I guess he was a, he was a doctorate in a certain field,
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right? I believe it's psychotherapy
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that he, he's a doctorate in and he's, but he's made his name in
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politics, right? He made his name opposing a
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certain political bill about free speech in, in Canada.
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And obviously he shot to fame in something that is completely is
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completely different to his area of expertise and obviously it
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you know his. Yeah, I know him.
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He's attacked me a couple. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And, and I think that's the glorious.
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Days of Twitter or X Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Wait, so have you? You say that you've clashed him
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and. He's clashed with me, I mean.
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Really. Him.
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I mean, how? How did that?
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I can't remember. I can't remember, but he had to
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go at me on Twitter about some. Oh, really?
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Yeah. Was that recently the last
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couple of? Years.
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No, because I've not been on I give up Twitter.
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I I only use it just to plug out podcasts and stuff like that and
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I don't I don't engage with anything on there.
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I've not looked at it for years. So not since mosque destroyed
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it. Yeah, it's a different place
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now. It's the Wild West now.
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I tell you, it's the Wild West. It used to be my favourite app
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as well. Me too, I really enjoyed it.
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You could have fun on there, you could have chats, you can engage
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with people with status or without status and then you
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could have fun. But you go on that it's just for
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hate. Hate violent bots?
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Quickly as well. You'll be scrolling something
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you like and then all of a sudden you're like, no, I
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didn't, I wasn't supposed to be here.
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Going down a dark. Hole.
8:25
But yeah, I think I think to kind of continue.
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Let me continue, Michael. Yeah, beauty.
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All right, let's let's get into it a little bit.
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You're going to critique us to our argument.
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Please hold your opinion. If we take impact to mean value
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or just equate the two or correlate it to whatever you
8:42
want to do, I would argue it's a bit of a slippery slope.
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So what what you're doing is you're taking a utilitarian
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argument, which is what is the utility of the opinion?
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What does it actually do in the world?
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And I think it's a slippery slope for two reasons, because
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number one, yes, you impact a lot of people, but I would argue
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you don't know how it's going to impact people, right?
9:01
You're you're almost looking into the future and you're
9:04
trying to assess something that you don't have any concrete data
9:06
about. Right.
9:07
You don't need to look at me like that because I'm, I'm
9:10
actually between the two of you. Yeah.
9:12
You are. You are.
9:13
Because I don't think you can actually categorise this in a
9:17
specific way, because it's a very general conversation and it
9:22
depends on all the circumstances.
9:24
Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with what you're
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saying. What I would say is what you're
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arguing is, is the opinion better?
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Is the quality of the opinion better?
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And yeah, that might be the case, but we're talking about
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the value and opinion is functional.
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It it serves as a place within a conversation within.
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Society, sure, but you don't have to be in the context of a
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conversation. It can be an opinion, like you
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said, that you hold internally. It doesn't have to be in
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community. Yeah, but we're talking about.
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Opinions that are shared, right? Because you wouldn't.
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You wouldn't know if someone's opinion was internal.
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We're talking about opinion that's shared.
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OK. That's you've moved the goal
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posts a little bit there. That's OK.
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No, the question never. Specified OK, but that's what
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we're talking about is that's. What we're talking about now.
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Don't ever move the goal posts. You used to freak me out.
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So if we're talking about in society and it has a functional
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purpose, if it reaches more people, it has to be more
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valuable. It's certainly more impactful,
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but I I guess what I'm saying is value doesn't need to equate to
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impact. There's value outside of impact.
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There is value outside of it, yeah.
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Like, like we're talking about someone who doesn't necessarily
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have massive. That's what you value as well,
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yeah. Do you value the truth or do you
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value opinion that that goes viral?
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Yeah. And for me, I think I go when I
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think about value, I think which is the more informed opinion,
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which is the in the opinion that is more intersection and has
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considered more things and is more grounded in the facts.
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That's just where my mind goes. And it automatically is more
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valuable if. It has those things, yeah.
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OK. Yeah, that I guess that's,
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that's my argument. But there's there's plenty of
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things that that support the two of you.
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I was actually going through the comments of your conversation
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with Zach, Zach Polanski and there was a guy on there in the
11:09
comments who let me actually pull up the comments.
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Oh dear. I took a, took a screenshot.
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The worst, dear. Never read the.
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Comment Never read the comment rule #1 Never read, never read
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the comments. Always read the comment.
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I've never read, never read the comment.
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Sometimes people like tag me and stuff and I just delete it.
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I'm just, I don't want to read what else people want to say
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about this. Maybe we don't have enough
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comment. Is this is this a comment from
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someone with status or with no status?
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I I can't pass any judgement on that.
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Mark Richter 9160 may have status, it may not, he says.
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Gary has no idea how much of an an encouragement he's been to us
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by speaking up so often. The foot soldiers can feel so
11:54
powerless. It's just great to have someone
11:56
so high profile put their reputation on the line just to
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stand up for truth and justice. What's he named?
12:01
Richter. Mark.
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Mark. That's I think that's a good
12:05
seven on the Richter scale. And I think it supports what you
12:09
guys are saying clearly for the guys the.
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Only thing I would say is that, and obviously I've, I've spoken
12:15
out about things that I feel are important on on behalf of people
12:19
that don't have a voice. Do I think it actually makes a
12:21
difference? No, it but it makes a difference
12:25
to me because I have to live with myself and the only person
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you can control in life or the actions are you is that to be
12:34
self, whether it actually is? Does it make a difference to
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let's take the the goings on in in Gaza and Palestine?
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Does anything that I've said is that it made a difference to
12:46
saving anyone's life? No, no.
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But could I live with myself without saying something?
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No. So it's a, it's a personal
12:56
thing. I get a lot of love from all
13:00
sorts of places because of it. I don't do it because of that.
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But people say if nobody speaks out, nothing will ever change.
13:08
So maybe, you know, it does make a slight difference.
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This is helping our argument as well.
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Because of my status, because of my platform, my following.
13:19
I don't think it probably does in the bigger picture.
13:21
But if it if it encourages more people to do the same because
13:25
what you need is a like a tidal wave of people doing this sort
13:28
of thing to make a difference, then perhaps it does in a tiny
13:31
way. Yeah, yeah.
13:33
I, I agree, I certainly, I certainly agree with the both of
13:35
you that if someone with a bigger platform speaks out, it's
13:39
certainly more platform. And, and I think, I think what
13:42
what you did around Gaza, what you said around Gaza, I think
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has more of an impact than you're probably giving it credit
13:48
for because. Yeah, well, it's hard to judge
13:49
it, isn't it? Yes, really hard to judge it.
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But I, you know, I'll get obviously a lot of good feedback
13:55
for it and people encourage me to keep doing it.
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And so that in itself it, it probably does help a little bit,
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but I don't do it because I think if I do this, it, it will
14:05
help the situation. I'd do it on the off chance that
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it might just help a fraction, yeah.
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And like you said, internally it it helps you find.
14:16
You live with myself. Yeah, within the context of
14:19
everything, what's happening? I also would never judge, never
14:23
judge anyone for not doing it because I totally understand why
14:27
they don't, you know, take people in the sport and
14:29
background stuff. You know that you've got agents
14:31
saying no, don't say anything about anything, anything.
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Clubs and you know their players, they don't want any
14:36
player to speak out and I understand why they don't.
14:39
And obviously things happen to you if you do this is always
14:44
another side. And they they're particularly
14:46
powerful and they want to bring you down in which I experience
14:49
myself, obviously. So I understand why.
14:51
I mean, I'm in a not a unique situation, but a very favourable
14:55
situation position in the sense that I'm secure in life.
15:00
You know, if, if I lost a job or something like that, it's I'm
15:04
going to be fine. You know, I might leave a bit
15:08
less for the kids or whatever. When I, you know, pop my clogs.
15:11
I was in a position of of secureness.
15:14
You know, they went for me and ultimately they think they had
15:17
their way. But actually in the way things
15:20
have panned out. Things you showed before you no.
15:23
It's it's much better, you know, much better than you know, I've
15:25
got my week. Well, I was quick.
15:27
I was kind of semi retiring from the BBC anyway, but it was kind
15:31
of rushed a little bit. So I was, you know, at the time
15:35
it was like, well, this is a bit weird.
15:37
And then time goes by and lots of lovely things have happened
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and people have been amazing. I couldn't be happier.
15:44
Perfect that. Moves us perfectly on to the
15:47
next segment. OK.
15:53
Does a large platform come with added moral obligations?
15:57
Oh, well, that's sort of, yeah, got ahead of the curve.
16:00
I. Got so I sort of answered it in
16:04
a way and that give me the exact wording of it again.
16:07
Does a large platform come with added moral obligations?
16:10
I don't think there are moral obligations unless you believe
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you should have moral obligations.
16:18
Again, it it goes back to the point of don't judge people for
16:22
not using their platform for that.
16:25
I feel better when they do. And, you know, one of my great
16:27
heroes in, in, in, in because I, you know, obviously I'm a
16:30
football person was, was Marcus. You've already mentioned that
16:33
Marcus. I asked you what he did was
16:34
incredible and brave. He got a lot.
16:38
And I also knew as well that soon as this game slipped a bit,
16:40
they'd blame that. Yeah, they guy wants to.
16:43
He needs to concentrate more on his football.
16:44
You know, all that nonsense. I knew that would come.
16:46
And that and it. Came and it came and it came and
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it was an amazing thing to do. And I saw him a few months ago
16:53
out in Barcelona, went to interview him and he's he's
16:56
like, he's, you know, he's a really lovely guy.
16:58
And what he did was incredible. So I think if you can use your
17:03
platform for good, for what you think is good.
17:05
Now, what some people think is good, yeah, we might disagree
17:09
with. But I think generally if you do
17:12
and do it in the right way, because you gotta be careful,
17:14
obviously. And I think it's it's a massive
17:17
tick. Do you don't judge them a little
17:19
bit like? No, I, I, I don't really.
17:23
I don't because I know. Even if they come from a
17:25
position of, say, security. And well, I think that's if you,
17:29
if you're in a position of security that you know, in life
17:32
and, and you do feel strongly about something, you've got to
17:35
genuinely feel, you know, I mean, I don't do these things
17:38
just to try and make myself look good because it brings so much
17:41
shit with it. But I think if you're in a, in a
17:44
very secure position like I was then, then I think it was the
17:49
right thing to do. It's.
17:50
Weird. I don't know if I judge you, but
17:53
as I take it with the state, if the person was your friend, I
17:56
would probably look at my friend a little bit differently if I
17:59
just knew you were secure and you still felt this way, but
18:01
your cowardice sort of overcame your ability to challenge
18:06
something. But some people, some people are
18:08
not. Brave, a lot of people are not
18:11
brave and they just want like to come as it is.
18:12
And I get that and I get that as well.
18:15
If you know, and again, we're going back to if you, there are
18:18
not that many people, you have to be a certain age to be secure
18:20
at all. There's a lot of life, you know,
18:23
there's a lot of life after sport.
18:24
I'm a lot to live. But I've managed to find
18:27
something else that I could do for years and years and years
18:30
and years. And I'm at an age as well where,
18:33
you know, probably so it could slow down a little bit.
18:36
But but so, yeah, I think every every person's situation is
18:44
slightly different and you don't know everything that's going on
18:47
in their lives. So I think it's very easy to be
18:49
judgmental. I've got very close friends that
18:52
are very judgmental about people not saying things and not using
18:56
their platform. But I get what happens.
18:59
You know, take take footballs, for example.
19:01
You know, a lot of people say why don't one of them speak out
19:04
because they're scared to, you know, they'd be the agents for
19:08
telling them. Whatever you do, don't get
19:09
involved. I don't want to Pete myself, but
19:11
I said this before, but their their club, their club.
19:16
I mean, honestly, dealing with football clubs, I mean, I
19:18
interview players and sometimes, well, what are you going to ask?
19:22
What are you going to ask? Oh, can we, I just think, no,
19:24
it's fine. Well, let me ask because I don't
19:27
when I interviewed people, I don't prepare a list of 100
19:30
questions. I I think areas where I want to
19:33
talk. I want a conversation a little
19:34
bit like this now. And and now I always say to
19:38
them, we're not here to turn them out.
19:42
We'll do the interview at the end.
19:43
If there's anything you don't like, take it out.
19:47
We're not here to, you know, we're not here for click bait
19:49
and that sort of stuff. But there is a genuine genuinely
19:53
around players, there's a team and all of them are discouraging
19:58
them to put their head on the parapet.
20:01
And I get it, I get it. I understand it.
20:03
So I don't judge the players for that.
20:05
Yeah, I. Assume tough you disagree a
20:07
little bit. Yeah, I disagree, I guess.
20:09
Let let me let me be honest here.
20:11
I am. I do judge.
20:14
I'm a judge. Mental.
20:15
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got lots, lots of close
20:18
friends of mine, like lots really close people to me are
20:22
they can be very judge man. And I always go, well, you don't
20:25
know this circumstances I was trying to defend.
20:26
I'm probably more like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I guess it is
20:31
difficult. When looking from the outside
20:34
in, someone seems to have at least enough security to to say
20:39
something like. And if you've got an opinion,
20:43
like how bad could it be? And even if it's bad, is it
20:48
worse than silence? Like, is it worse than?
20:52
Yeah. Well, silence can be quite
20:53
dummy. Right.
20:55
And I just, I just struggle when like, someone talking about the
21:00
the Gaza situation. Let's make it real, right?
21:02
Let's talk about actual examples.
21:04
DJ Khaled is a massive musician out in America.
21:08
He regularly hits number one in the charts.
21:12
He's Palestinian and he's never spoken about it.
21:16
And it's like, on one hand, yeah, I do understand some
21:19
people might say what does it matter whether he talks about
21:22
it? But he's literally a
21:23
Palestinian. And his silence in some respect
21:27
is it feels like complicity. It feels like cowardice to the
21:30
point of complicity. Yeah, I don't, I don't sorry.
21:34
I'm not on DJDJ Khaled is, but yeah, that that would surprise
21:40
me. I just your fellow country
21:43
people is going through. Absolutely, yeah.
21:47
Actually majority probably agree with Gary but my my struggle is
21:52
it feels super short sighted to not say anything because you're
21:58
fine now and and and that's the truth.
22:00
Like you, you're fine, you're OK, but it doesn't mean you're
22:03
going to be fine in 10 years or you're going to be fine in 20
22:06
years. It might be your people that are
22:08
subjugated and then you want other people that aren't
22:11
involved to try and help you out.
22:13
And I think by that point it's. Too late.
22:14
The example I always use, actually, something similar to
22:16
that is that when people talk about, you know, supportive
22:20
refugees, I've housed a couple at my place and they're, you
22:25
know, they're generally lovely people.
22:27
I mean, we're just people aren't, we're all people within
22:30
a bunch of people. You get some, they're not very
22:32
nice, some that are super nice. And then most people in the
22:36
middle just want to get on with their lives and have a nice
22:38
life. And then and all the refugees
22:40
that come, it's exactly that balance.
22:43
And as you just say, well, what, what if it happened here in
22:45
London? But I know it's hard to imagine
22:49
that, which is a struggle, but imagine we were like bombed and
22:55
persecuted and forced out of our homes because it was being
23:00
destroyed. And then you, how'd you go
23:03
somewhere? You need to go somewhere to for
23:05
the safety of your kids and the thing, put yourself in in that
23:09
position. And then you go to a country
23:10
and, and obviously you can't take everyone in, but just, you
23:15
know, we've got to find legal roots and a fair share.
23:18
Take our fair share. But imagine going somewhere else
23:21
and you've got your kids. Oh, and just what you could grab
23:23
from your home. You know, no.
23:25
One, you don't want to do that unless it's absolutely
23:28
desperate, honestly. And these people are absolutely
23:30
desperate. So just, but it, it's, I think
23:34
it's so hard for us here to envisage.
23:38
Envisaged something. Like that.
23:40
And you could probably have said the same about America a while
23:42
ago. But, you know, when you look at
23:44
what's going on there now with, you know, people being ripped
23:47
off the streets, What? Do you think about America?
23:49
I think it has been happening for a long time, but it's, it's
23:53
just generally the ruling class in America don't face it.
23:56
Do you know what I mean? Like the other people have to
23:58
face it essentially like in America.
24:01
Yeah. And now, now it's everyone's,
24:04
everyone's getting it. But yeah, I think we were
24:06
talking about Gary, is it's that empathy or being like, can I not
24:11
put myself in that person's shoes and understand what they
24:14
might be feeling, even if we've never experienced it before,
24:17
like seeing their humanity. And I think if you, if we
24:20
started as a country, as a people from a place of empathy,
24:24
the conversations in this country and in America would be
24:26
completely. Different.
24:27
We totally agree. No, we don't.
24:29
So. Even back to the original
24:31
question, does a large platform come with added moral
24:33
obligation? My answer was actually no,
24:35
because I actually think the same applies for people with
24:38
small platforms. I think it does apply for your
24:40
average person. You get what I mean?
24:42
That's. You're totally right on that
24:43
because you know what is a big platform?
24:46
Yeah. Is it 1000, is it 5000?
24:49
Is it 10,000? Is it 100,000?
24:51
Is it half a million? Is it a million?
24:52
Is it 20 million? I mean, where do you where do
24:54
you stop the point? So I think it's anyone with.
24:58
Anyone, anybody like everybody, everybody should do it.
25:01
You know what I mean? If you can.
25:03
Yeah, exactly. I just don't think it increases
25:05
more because more people seem to like you because you play
25:08
football well. Do you get what I mean?
25:09
I don't think you're more obligated or morally subjected
25:13
to. It don't you think though, if
25:15
you've got a large platform and obviously that comes with more
25:18
resources and more ability to hold yourself to a higher
25:22
standard or your setup or your media to a higher standard,
25:26
surely heavy is the head that wears that crown, right?
25:29
You've got more resources, you've got more ability to hit
25:33
that higher standard, wouldn't you?
25:36
Wouldn't you be obliged to do that?
25:38
Do you know what's weird is if you, if you looked at the first
25:41
question, does status make an opinion more valuable?
25:46
And then the second question, does a large platform come with
25:48
added moral obligations? We sort of have switched roles.
25:51
Do you notice that? Then I noticed that I was doing
25:54
that as well, like I knew it would happen that obviously we
25:59
in the first question we were looking at the for our
26:02
philosophers that there the deontological view of it.
26:04
And then now we look at the consequentialist view, the
26:07
ontological. It's just basically.
26:08
The Ontological. Yeah.
26:11
What does that mean? I don't it basically mean this
26:14
is rugby playing football. I've never heard that word.
26:18
It basically means your actions are what matter, not the
26:21
outcome. Whilst now.
26:24
And that's the argument that TEF was making in the first
26:26
question. And now he's arguing the
26:28
consequentialist view. So the consequences are more
26:31
important than the actions. Am I?
26:35
But you're just saying if they have more resources, if they
26:37
have more. But I'm not saying it in like,
26:41
I'm not judging the morality of their action by the consequence,
26:44
which would be consequentialism. I'm more saying if you have more
26:49
resources, you have a bigger duty on a day ontological point
26:52
of view to. Oh, you have a great.
26:54
Duty. Oh yeah, yeah, OK whether or not
26:56
that like the consequences of that is questionable.
27:00
And because I, I, I find it quite difficult to judge the
27:03
consequences of something that's not happened yet, I tend not to
27:06
lean too much on consequentialism.
27:08
Obviously we live in, you don't want to be like, oh, I'm a
27:11
consequentialist and this is my rigid view.
27:13
But generally speaking, I lean towards like doing the right
27:16
thing because it's the right thing, not because it will have
27:19
a certain. Whatever happens today, I'm I'm,
27:22
I'm, we've got the answer to this podcast taught me a new
27:25
word. You need to drop that and rest
27:26
this ball. Absolutely.
27:31
I want to sing Micah's Micah and Alex Trace.
27:34
When I throw it in, I'm going to be.
27:35
Listening to me like I did that. They'll go deontay, deontay
27:46
logical that, but. That's that's it.
27:48
Deontological is. I'd feel like I resonate with
27:52
that. Ever.
27:52
So it's like. I feel like you, you did.
27:55
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am, yeah.
27:56
Generally, but yeah, it's interesting that that we we kind
27:59
of well, actually I didn't change you basically you.
28:03
Yeah, yeah, I thought you. But with what you said
28:05
initially, I thought you were talking about consequence.
28:07
Yeah, I know, I know, I know it. But remember what you said?
28:09
No, no. Remember what you said?
28:11
Like you don't want to be rigid, you want to.
28:17
On to our final segment, which is the dilemma.
28:24
You're a well regarded person with a platform.
28:27
A major social issue erupts and requires immediate action from
28:31
the public. It's everywhere.
28:33
People are waiting on you to say something, but the truth is you
28:36
don't really understand it. You've read a few headlines,
28:39
seen the outrage, but you're not sure what to write.
28:43
You're in the middle of work, travelling, juggling a bunch of
28:45
things, and haven't read enough to really understand what's
28:48
going on. Do you keep quiet or speak and
28:52
risk getting it wrong? I think you could restrict your
28:57
time on this and it's, and obviously there are areas that
29:00
you go in and areas that you won't go in depends on, on the
29:04
circumstances. I think if you, if it's
29:07
something that you're generally focused on, you're generally
29:12
interested in and it's and you think it's some, I think that's
29:15
just really depends on the circumstances.
29:18
Because I can think of examples where I've not done things
29:21
because I'm, I think you can't get involved in everything, you
29:26
know, But I mean, I've lot, lots of times people will go, oh,
29:30
have you seen this blah, blah, blah.
29:31
Will you help? Will you?
29:32
And I'll, I'll look at it and I'll either go yes or I'll no,
29:37
But it's entirely dependent on what it is.
29:41
Because if I see it and read it and I think I'm actually the not
29:45
quite sure that's that bad or what is this is it?
29:50
How obvious it is, Does that probably impact you a little
29:52
bit? Like if it's obviously like,
29:55
obviously we saw what happened with Ice and the woman in
29:57
America and you're like, that's obvious even though I haven't,
30:00
like, read everything about it. We know that's not right.
30:02
Yeah. Well, let's take right, which is
30:06
always a little bit controversial.
30:07
Let's take October 7th. So I been doing loads of stuff
30:13
that day and I wasn't on looking at social media it was at that
30:18
point. And then so by the time that it
30:22
was come, I was starting to get attacked for not saying anything
30:27
right about what happened on October 7th.
30:30
So, so I'd always, I'd been for many, many years, very pro
30:35
Palestinian. I know what was going on there.
30:37
You know, it's, it's, it's a form of apartheid.
30:41
They basically live in an outdoor prison.
30:43
They can't come in, they can't come out.
30:45
Everything's controlled by Israel.
30:46
So, so I, you know, because of the fact that I've spoken up on
30:51
occasion, I used to get hideously attacked for it, like
30:54
used to be IDF people. So, oh, come in for me.
30:58
So, so I, I wasn't aware of what happened and I wasn't on social
31:03
media and then I was told, and then I was trending for not
31:07
having said anything. Now I've got to make this.
31:09
What do I do, right? So I thought, well, if I do it
31:12
now, it just looks like I'm saying something because.
31:16
People are forcing me to a little bit, yeah.
31:19
So I thought, well, I'll hold off for a little while and then
31:22
I'll wait for interviews. And then within two or three
31:24
days, you know, I was, you know, obviously it was, it was a
31:28
hideous event. That was the circumstances where
31:31
where I thought I was kind of being bullied into doing
31:35
something which if I'd have been in the morning and seen it, I
31:39
would have obviously done something.
31:41
So. But you're human.
31:43
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was just, I wasn't
31:46
looking at social media and I, you know, I can't remember what
31:50
I was doing, but I didn't, I wasn't aware of what had
31:53
happened for quite a few hours until after it because I was, I
31:56
was in meetings. I can't remember what it was,
31:58
but it was a very an odd situation to be put into.
32:01
So at that point I thought, do I want to do it?
32:05
I was obviously I'm going to say something.
32:07
So what I did do was just put out like other people saying
32:13
things. So so it does it without doing
32:16
it yourself. And honestly, that's generally
32:19
how I act now, you know, other people that are much clever than
32:22
these saying things that make much more sense than I would
32:25
ever make and use, use, use them on, you know, on Instagram or
32:31
Stories or whatever you call them.
32:32
Yeah, I honestly, the answer to my answer to the dilemma that I
32:37
was going to give is, is tied to that.
32:39
Because at the end of the day, if you don't know all the
32:44
details, I would imagine you could at least find the people
32:48
who are involved. People are informed.
32:52
And if there's a victim or like, you know, a subjugated group of
32:55
people, you could go to those group of people and at least
32:58
amplify their voices. And I think at the very least
33:01
you could do that without fully understanding it.
33:04
And obviously there's this problem of if you've got a
33:07
platform and you've got, you've got, you know, some status,
33:12
people come to you as if. You're an authority.
33:15
No, they do, yeah. And sometimes you, you have, you
33:18
know, it might not be something that you feel is, is a
33:23
significant and important enough to do something about.
33:27
So you're constantly having to make those judgements.
33:29
You've also got to be aware that you know, you will be very
33:33
careful the way you state something, the way you word
33:37
something when you've got, you know, if you're very high
33:40
profile. So you, you've got to be caught.
33:43
You know, you can't instantly go in.
33:45
You've got to take the backward step.
33:49
Have a breath. And just evaluate things before
33:52
you come out with a a strong opinion.
33:54
Do you feel like a bit of what? Oh, I'll preface this with like.
33:58
So when I was like, I'll probably say that 5-6 years ago,
34:01
I made like a documentary on class in, in rugby.
34:07
And then all of a sudden every single time something happens,
34:11
people wanted to ask me about it, like, and I just felt like
34:15
this is, this is something that's wrong and this is my
34:17
contribution to this thing that I believe needs to change.
34:21
But like, I don't want to answer this every time, like every time
34:24
something happens, right? Do you ever feel pressure around
34:27
having spoken around these things?
34:29
That every time something happens, it's like, well, I'm
34:32
going to have to get my statement right.
34:33
I'm going to have to go read stuff to get what I mean.
34:37
Yeah, you have to you have to evaluate each situation.
34:42
And sometimes we also get it wrong.
34:44
You know, I obviously there was the emoji gate thing that I had.
34:51
I mean, as soon as someone made me aware of it, because and I, I
34:55
didn't, I didn't spot the thing obviously, because I'm not, I am
34:59
an idiot, but not that big of an idiot to, to propose something
35:02
like that knowingly. So I took it down immediately,
35:05
apologised and then apologised again.
35:07
And so, so something like that, you know, you, which was nothing
35:13
actually, no statement from me, never said anything about it was
35:16
just somebody's story that I put up on there.
35:20
And he had the emoji on it. Yeah.
35:22
So, so, you know, for reasons like that, I understand this
35:26
goes back to the previous debate about morally, because if
35:31
something like that can happen, that can, you know, you, I mean,
35:35
it didn't, that wasn't cancelled.
35:37
I lost, you know, I lost a certain part of the BBC job
35:41
which ultimately enabled me to do other things.
35:44
But you know, so you know, when things like that happen, they
35:49
also will put off other people with.
35:53
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
35:54
So that's why I'm interested in. Super cautious and I, I, you
35:58
know, I've been super cautious for years and years and years
36:00
and years, but that was, you know, that was a.
36:02
So in response to this dilemma, you'd probably keep quiet,
36:05
right? At least for a little bit and
36:07
then. Sometimes you'll be obvious if
36:09
they want to wade in, other times you'll go not sure, I
36:14
might read up a little bit more on study and other times you'll
36:17
go no not for me. I think each thing you have to
36:21
judge. I do think what you pointed to
36:24
throughout like that story you're telling about, you know,
36:27
the emoji game or people some pressuring you to to make a
36:30
statement or come out and say something officially.
36:34
I guess what I'm hearing through all of that is that there's a
36:37
lot of people online who have a parasocial relationship with
36:40
you, right? In a sense, you are not a human
36:43
being to them who might have been out that morning that it
36:45
happened. You're a character in their mind
36:49
who needs to instantaneously respond at their will, right?
36:53
Whereas if they sat across from you in a room and spoke to you
36:56
about it, they'll be like, Oh yeah.
36:58
Fair. Yeah.
37:00
Yeah, that's what I understand, yeah.
37:02
So totally wrong. Yeah, it's this.
37:03
Weird thing that we do online where you know people, the
37:08
people roles for people that just the guy, the guy who does
37:11
this or the guy who I go to for my opinion on this topic.
37:15
And it's like, why hasn't he dropped the opinion?
37:17
I need that like feed me. I need to know what to say.
37:20
Now I'm like. Hater's going to hate.
37:23
Me, it's a very weird situation and I think and I guess maybe
37:27
it's it's somewhat A2 way street, right?
37:29
Because because people have a parasocial relationship, for
37:33
example with yourself, you then feel the pressure to in a sense
37:38
restrict your human instincts, right?
37:40
You don't want to come out and speak in a way that you might in
37:43
your living room because. It may be misinterpreted.
37:46
Yeah, it's like there's, it's a weird, it's a weird group of
37:48
people that are just watching you, right?
37:50
What's it now? And it's just like this
37:55
situation that I think forces creators and people with status
37:59
to behave a certain way that then reinforces the loop, right?
38:03
Because it's also more difficult when you when you're actually
38:06
working for the BBC because of the, you know, the impartiality.
38:10
He talked about goal posts being moved.
38:12
They were moved dramatically because you used to be allowed
38:16
to post any kind of opinion really, as long as she wasn't,
38:20
you know, putting anything into anything really bad.
38:23
But you could say anything and then they suddenly moved the
38:26
goal posts and said, no, it applies to everybody at the BBC
38:29
now. So when you're working for the
38:31
BBC, obviously they can come at it.
38:34
Get they've got an excuse to come.
38:36
Yeah. I'm now I'm not with the BBC.
38:39
As long as I don't say something really stupid, I, I, I'm
38:42
perfectly entitled to my opinion.
38:43
It's free speech. Yeah.
38:45
Yeah. But I think the one place where
38:48
free speech doesn't apply is if you work for the BBC, you're not
38:51
allowed it. Yeah.
38:52
So yeah, and I always think they they messed up in terms of
38:57
impartiality. It was actually one of our
38:59
questions before was can influence ever be neutral?
39:03
And obviously we didn't ask it because I actually listened to
39:06
something else. I think it was the Zach, the
39:08
Zach one where it's like it's really, it's nearly impossible
39:12
for anything to be neutral as you report.
39:15
You can't, you can't avoid your bias.
39:17
You can't avoid what? You need to look for is the
39:19
truth and I think that's where the BBC have got a little bit
39:22
lost. It's all about impartiality.
39:24
Impartiality. No, it's bad, bad truth.
39:28
Yeah. And I guess maybe the, the
39:29
impartiality clause, it's just, it's maybe it's just another
39:32
method of control, like they, they get to just in retrospect
39:36
control what they want to go out and then and they actually have
39:40
the ability now to move the goal posts at will because they've
39:43
got this, you know, this thing called impartiality that.
39:46
Because I imagine if you spoke about opinion that the BBC
39:49
agreed with, they wouldn't now enforce enforce the same law, if
39:53
you understand well. The BBC is not one person
39:55
either, it's a group. But the most powerful people are
39:58
interested the board at the top who have the influence.
40:01
The board is far from being impartial because they're
40:05
brought in by the government at the time.
40:07
You know some of them are and so.
40:09
There's a power imbalance there. Yeah, there's a power imbalance.
40:13
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. I kind of want to do the trolley
40:16
problem. I want to kind of go back to
40:18
their own ontology. Let's go back to them to.
40:21
US is utilitarianism. There's this very famous thought
40:25
experiment you might have heard called the Trolley Problem.
40:28
The trolley problem. The trolley problem.
40:30
This is the thing that basically was the inception of this show
40:32
in the sense, yeah. And it touches at like when you
40:37
judge an action, do you judge the morality of the action based
40:40
on the consequence or based on the action in and of itself?
40:44
Like is an action right or wrong based on you know you're you're.
40:48
You're doing it or the outcome. Give me an example.
40:50
Yeah, so, so the trolling problem is, is a great example.
40:53
And I want you to imagine you're a train conductor, you're sat in
40:57
an office and you've got a lever that changes the the direction
41:00
of a train that's barreling down the train tracks, right.
41:03
And on those train tracks are 5 workers that cannot hear the
41:08
train and if you do nothing they will be hit by by the train.
41:12
Your lever redirects the train off of those tracks will save
41:16
the lives of those five workers. There's a buck coming.
41:19
But will hit an an individual one worker on a divergent on a
41:24
divergent track. So your decision you've got to
41:28
make it fairly quick is do you pull the lever to divert the
41:34
train onto the track with one person or do you do nothing and.
41:39
Then you're not killing someone. The the dilemma there is
41:45
obviously, do you save 5 people or kill one?
41:48
Yeah. Yeah, because you don't kill the
41:50
five, do you? No.
41:52
All of that is horrible. It's a horror.
41:53
It's a horrible dilemma. It's thank God I'm not a
41:58
trainer. Oh God, I don't how?
42:02
How do you make that he? He gave it to people as like a
42:05
travel conduct. I give it to people as you're
42:06
just a bystander, OK? Do we know who the person is
42:09
that's standing there? Is he an asshole or is he God?
42:15
Yeah. Yeah, it's a difficult one.
42:16
Do you, do you pull the liver? I guess already in your response
42:20
by by saying that you killed that one person, I can kind of
42:24
see where you might be going, but what do you actually do?
42:28
Panic. Run out.
42:30
Scream. I don't know, it's difficult.
42:33
There was actually a YouTube show where.
42:35
Anyone could answer how do you? How the hell would you know what
42:37
you would do? I suppose in the end if.
42:41
I've always said I wouldn't pull it.
42:43
That's always you would. I wouldn't.
42:45
No, no. As a bystander, I'm just, I'm
42:47
just waiting for my train. I'm kind of my own business.
42:50
Or does it change if you are? If I wasn't, yeah, if I was
42:52
conducted, it would change, to be fair.
42:54
But as a bystander, I was just. Well, I don't like actually
42:56
scenario like the one that's probably never happened.
43:02
Yeah, yeah. It does, although I suppose the
43:06
premise of it has happened where people have had to make
43:09
decisions, probably in government a lot.
43:11
Yeah. Like so that many people will
43:14
have to die to save that many. People.
43:15
Or so we're not, so far. With the person estimate those
43:18
kind of decisions. No, very super.
43:20
How do you live with yourself? Because she says there's no win
43:23
in that one. No, no, I think most people do
43:26
pull the lever. A lot of people do pull the
43:27
lever. When when the dilemma is
43:30
configured in the way that I gave it to you.
43:32
Once you start to change things though, if that person on the
43:36
individual track is your son or your daughter.
43:40
Of course. But legally?
43:42
Legally, would that be murder I. Think it would.
43:48
Be. I think it would be.
43:48
Yeah, it would be murder. And if you do nothing, it's
43:51
What's that? Negligent.
43:56
Something something. Maybe if you're a travel
43:58
conductor, it might be. Yeah, if you your job was to
44:01
take care of the tracks. Yeah, that that is, yeah.
44:05
But I guess in in my mind, the legality is I mean in the real
44:11
world sounds. Like a great game for Squid
44:12
Game. One of those.
44:15
Shows honestly when my mum was like I'll pull the I was like
44:18
mum like is that who you are? Honestly, I had this
44:21
conversation with a few. People.
44:22
Yeah, like. She pulled the lieber.
44:23
Yeah, she pulled the lieber. You're the first thing you think
44:27
and and I guess this would happen like that would if you
44:31
suddenly gone five people can die, one person can die.
44:35
It's obviously that's got to be better one person, but if you
44:39
initiate that, then you. You're making a decision.
44:43
Yeah, do you? Know what though?
44:45
I would actually not be able to live with myself if five people
44:48
die. I mean, I can't live.
44:50
I can't live. Yourself.
44:52
Either way, yeah. That is the right, yeah.
44:54
That's the. Right.
44:55
I ain't sleeping that night, basically.
44:58
Yeah, we're not sleeping that even.
44:59
Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's fascinating
45:01
because obviously it, it kind of just strikes at the heart of
45:04
like, do you judge things on their consequences or, or the
45:07
action itself? It's a mixture, isn't it?
45:08
Yeah. Yeah, in real life, it's not.
45:10
It's not that. Clear.
45:11
It's never that clear. It's also never clear what the
45:14
consequences right here in the train track if you.
45:16
Know it well. In that case, you know the
45:18
consequences manufacturing situation generally in life.
45:22
You have no idea. Yeah, you have no idea,
45:23
especially not when you're in the front of those scrum things.
45:28
That you or a public car or something?
45:32
All right. Thanks for joining us today.
45:34
We really appreciate it. See you soon.
45:36
See you next week. Cheers all.