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Reliving the ‘96 Atlanta Olympics with Dominique Dawes · Sports In America with David Greene

• DAVID GREENE, HOST: "Don't allow taxpayers to be treated as the dumb money at the table." Those very strong words came from Rahm Emanuel, who was explaining why, when he was mayor of Chicago, he said no to hosting the World Cup in 2026. Well, as we know, some cities said a resounding yes, banking on a mega sporting event being good for a city, both financially and also for vibes and morale. And one of those cities is Atlanta. We're going to talk today about how one World Cup city has been feeling as this event has gotten underway, and also talk about the athletes who are, for better or worse, forever linked to mega events like this. We're going to speak to Dominique Dawes, who, as many of you might remember, was front and center when Atlanta hosted the Olympics in 1996. I wanna bring in Sherri Daye Scott. She's arts and culture editor and contributor at Atlanta's public radio station, WABE. Sherri, thanks for doing this. SHERRI DAYE SCOTT: Glad to be here. DG: How's it feeling in Atlanta? One one of the one of the big World Cup host cities. SDS: I have to tell you, it's really been just a, you can very palpably see the change in the air in the city. DG: Oh, interesting. SDS: It feels like an international city in a way that sometimes Atlanta doesn't. And I'm not even talking about the visitors, I'm just talking about the scale and sophistication that we've seen around the World Cup activations, the watch parties across the city, the people who have come in from not necessarily international but again even domestically. You know, one of the things we hear about Atlanta quite a bit is that we haven't captured international attention in the past. DG: You know, that is so interesting because, you know, part of that Rahm Emanuel quote that I read came through reporting by both The Athletic and by Pablo Torre and his show. They were talking about a lot of the conversations that happened between FIFA and these World Cup cities, you know, back when this was all being negotiated. And there was this moment that they've reported on that happened at SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles when the head of the LA Sports Commission asked FIFA, like, what do we get out of this? And FIFA's response was, it's gonna put your city on the map. And I think people in LA kind of laughed at that because they're like, We're already on the map. But it sounds like for Atlanta, you're saying that, like putting it on the map as a global city, is part of the emphasis here. SDS: It definitely is. I mean, that's definitely part of the ROI math that the city and the business community did, right? So it's definitely a public-private push. In fact, Atlanta launched a new organization, again, public-private organization called Showcase Atlanta about maybe 18 months ahead of World Cup with the idea that the programs and partnerships put together specifically for World Cup are then scalable for Super Bowl or the Women's World Cup or, you know, because again, this idea that despite Atlanta having the busiest airport in the world, you know, we are in some ways still kind of seen as a southern, you know, backwater city, which is very offensive to those of us who live there. But it absolutely is seen as something that is a promo for the city of Atlanta. DG: Have you gotten to go to any of the matches, or have you been too busy actually reporting on all of this happening? SDS: No, have not gone, I'm crossing my fingers. You know, I work in public media, I can't afford those tickets. DG: Right. I meant as a journalist, maybe. Maybe if you got lucky, but yeah. SDS: Right, but I have been to a couple of the watch parties, and they've been amazing. My son, who's 18, he's an 18-year-old soccer player, right? He's been going to the watch parties with his friends, you know, riding our MARTA train. And for him, born and bred in Atlanta, this is the first time he's really gotten to see our city activated. So he's thrilled. DG: That's great. You know, I was literally talking to an Uber driver the other day in Philadelphia when I was on my way to a watch party in Philadelphia, not inside the stadium. We were both talking about, like, maybe some of the fun is not necessarily being inside. It's like at those watch parties, it's like block parties, bars, cafes, out on the sidewalk when people have set up TVs, like on porches, not just in the United States, but around the world. The World Cup is not about paying those massive prices and being inside. I'm sure it's incredibly special. I haven't been there, but I feel like I have been able to be a fan in the best possible way. SDS: Yeah, and what's really interesting is Atlanta has had, you know, we have the official FIFA, you know, FanFest watch parties that are right in our downtown center, the Atlanta BeltLine, which is, you know, our kind of our version of the High Line from New York. They've had watch parties across the BeltLine. The BeltLine is a loop that goes across the whole city. So they really have been bringing the games, you know, not just to our more affluent areas, but, you know, Atlanta is still a city of kind of, you know, Black and white and have and have-nots, despite what you might think. So the south side of the city has really embraced the World Cup, and that is because the Beltline has been bringing watch parties to those communities. And then, as I mentioned with Showcase Atlanta, Atlanta was giving out grants for communities to host their own watch parties. And I think the mayor ended up one in Cascade, which is a traditional Black neighborhood in Atlanta. So he went out to that watch party, you know, as opposed to maybe one of the bigger ones. One of the things that Mayor Dickens keeps saying is that he was really focused on making sure World Cup happened with Atlanta and not to Atlanta, to Rahm Emanuel's point. And so far, you know, that's what it feels like. Now, of course, post-matches it'll be interesting to see, like the economic impact and all of those things, but in terms of making people feel welcome and bringing people into the world of soccer, I absolutely think we've done a fantastic job around that. DG: You know, I wanna ask you, I mean, it's interesting if we think about what you said that this World Cup is maybe putting Atlanta on the map globally. I kind of thought that happened with the '96 Summer Olympics. Did it not happen, or did it happen and that's just sort of worn off because it's been, you know, a few decades now? SDS: It definitely happened, but I would say yes, it's worn off. And I don't know that as a city at the time, we really understood that it's not a one-and-done, right? That, you know, how do you leverage that and really build off of that? I think if you talk to people who work in corporations or the business world, you know, there's a real understanding of Atlanta as a market and, you know, all those things. But, you know, as a tourist or, you know, I don't think the '96 Olympics did what we thought they would do for us. DG: Hmm. Well, I know you, I want our listeners to know, like you, you are a big reason that we're gonna be able to hear the conversation that we're about to listen to. I was able to speak to Dominique Dawes, you know, former US gymnast who was just front and center at those Atlanta '96 games. Thank you, first of all, for helping us score that conversation and getting... SDS: She's a hero of mine. DG: Yeah. Yeah, we'll talk about that. What, why do you call her a hero for you? SDS: Well, you know, as a Black woman, I grew up doing gymnastics, never saw anyone who really looked like me. And so, I know that one of the things that Dominique talked about is that wasn't necessarily the framework that she was competing in, and now that she's older, she sees it. But yeah, for somebody who grew up middle class and was in gymnastics, tap, and jazz, and all those things, seeing someone who looked like me competing at this top level, and also you have to think about— you know, for many years, gymnastics, tennis, ballet, these were all sports that Black women were told we were too big for or didn't have the body types for, right? And so, you know, seeing Dominique Dawes completely blow away that stereotype absolutely paved the way for someone like Simone Biles, right? Where we would laugh at that idea, but '96 Olympics, it was still something that was being taught, you know, that you can only go so far in this sport because you're not built, right like Nadia Comåneci or somebody along those lines. DD: Yeah. I mean, it was amazing talking to her, just hearing about what she faced. I mean, just stereotypes and assumptions that she wasn't built in the right way to be a gymnast. I mean, it was just awful, awful stuff that I, almost just as a as a member of society, felt really guilty about that she faced those things at such a young age. I mean, the Magnificent Seven that she was part of were they were so she was so young. SDS: Right. And I also, you know— continuing why I admire her— the work that she has done as an adult now, right to protect gymnasts, to advocate for athletes, to just make sure that what happened to her, you know, doesn't happen to the next generation, from everything from, you know, the Larry Nassar story to just payment for athletes, investing. She has just truly been a great advocate and ambassador for sports, and I know a lot of people could get burned out and decide that they would never want to talk about it again, but meanwhile, Dominique is still out there, out in front. DG: It sounds like you and WABE are really interested in in kind of exploring the '96 Games in Atlanta and the legacy there. What in particularly f what in particular fascinates you, and what do you want to explore? SDS: Well, I'm a transplant to Atlanta. I've lived here 20 years now. But anyone you've met who is from Atlanta, from the mayor on down, they have a '96 Olympic story. It's kind of like, where were you in the moon landing? Well, in Atlanta, it's like, what were you doing in the '96 Olympics? DG: Can imagine. SDS: People were either selling T-shirts or interning or part of the volunteer committee. So, you know, Atlanta absolutely marks the '96 Olympics as the moment we became a proper city. Now, as I said earlier, the question is whether or not the rest of the world saw us that way. And then it's just such an interesting story about public-private partnership and people really understanding, you know— one of my favorite stories around the '96 Olympics is that Andrew Young, Ambassador Andrew Young was a big part of why Atlanta won the bid. His kind of unique contribution to that was he went to the African countries, right, and was able to put together a voting bloc, which I think is just such a great Atlanta type of story of like, you know, we're a city that's always kind of figured out how we go around. You know, expectations or limitations. And I don't know that there's anyone else in America who could have went to the African bloc nations and encouraged them to vote, right, for their city, except someone like Andrew Young. So stories like that just really intrigued me. So, one, it's just this love that Atlanta has for its '96 Olympics legend, but also just the truth about how the games came to Atlanta. And also, it was one of the first games, I believe it was the first game to be, the Summer Game, to be in the black, right? So not only that, but it was a well-run Olympics. And I don't know that we get enough credit for that, right? That not only, you know, there was a lot happening, Richard Jewell and all those things that I think overshadowed the fact that it was really a well-run Olympics. DG: Remind us about Ambassador Young and what what who who he was and what role he was playing at that point in getting the Games there. SDS: Sure, so there's kind of two people who are considered the fathers of the '96 Olympics, Billy Payne, who was a corporate leader here in Atlanta, who is a corporate leader here in Atlanta, and then Ambassador Andrew Young, who is just an Atlanta hero. And the two of them together, we're able to, you know, Atlanta has always positioned itself as a city that's too busy to hate. And there's just kind of this idea of, you know, it's one of the few places where the white corporate structure and Black political power really work well together. And so Andrew Young was that piece. If Billy Payne was the corporation and bringing in that corporate money, then Andrew Young was the person bringing in the community and bringing in public dollars, and really, as I said, kind of making it feel like, you, Mayor Dickens, said the Olympics is happening with Atlanta. DG: Sounds like a really important story to hear, not just because of for a lot of the reasons you're talking about, but I bet Los Angeles could learn a lot as, you know, they get ready to host the summer Olympics. I mean, for an Olympics to be in the black, I mean, that's a huge deal. I'm sure one city has a lot to learn from another that has done this at various points. SDS: Yeah, and there was also a very minimal public investment. It really was, again, Billy Payne and Andrew Young were able to do a great job of raising mostly private dollars to subsidize a lot of the Olympic infrastructure and output. DG: All right, I've been speaking to Sherri Daye Scott. She's the arts and culture editor and a contributor at Atlantis Public Radio Station, WABE. Thank you so much for chatting. Thank you for helping us get in touch with Dominique Dawes, and we're gonna listen to my conversation with her right after this, here on Sports in America. SDS: Thanks for having me. MIDROLL [MUSIC] DG: Today, we're gonna rewind the clock by 30 years. It is 1996, the blazing hot and humid summer when the Olympics descended on Atlanta, Georgia. ANNOUNCER: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the opening ceremony of the Games of the 26th Olympians. DG: Dominique Dawes was 19 years old. By this point, she'd already been training to be a gymnast for 13 years, since she was six. She competed in the 1992 Olympics in Barcelona, and she helped Team USA win a bronze medal there. Come 1996, she was onto her second time at the Games as part of a squad that the world would call the Magnificent Seven. BROADCASTER 1: Announcing Atlanta's Magnificent Seven. BROADCASTER 2: The best chance they have had in history to win a gold medal. DG: The world really believed they had a shot to finally beat Russia in this sport and usher in an era of winning for the West. Dominique herself was trying to become the first Black woman ever to earn an individual medal in gymnastics. She had an opportunity to make history and on U.S. soil, if the pressure didn't get to her first. Today on Sports in America, with the U.S. hosting the World Cup, we're going to track Dominique Dawes Olympic journey, how she survived the pressure of performing in a global event in her home country, and learned to turn her pain into purpose. Can we start by kind of transporting ourselves back to 1996? I just wonder, like when you walked into that arena for the first time as the Olympics were getting underway, what it felt like to be competing at home, you know, on U.S. Soil and did that make things feel different in some way? DOMINIQUE DAWES: It did. It was a 13-year journey competing for my second Olympic Games, and it was overwhelming, you know, being on American soil. The support of the fans was uplifting. Definitely added a great deal of pressure to the mix with myself and my six amazing teammates. It was a heavy weight that each and every one of us faced, but it was very uplifting to know we had the support of our country along the way, which made those Olympic Games so special. DG: How does that pressure manifest? Do you feel it in your body? Is it sort of controlling the emotions? What is that pressure actually like? DD: Oh my gosh, you're taking me back, yeah. I think I always felt a little bit of pressure, even as a young gymnast, when I started receiving my first fan mail letters at 11 years old. I started recognizing that it wasn't just about me. It wasn't just about my individual goals, but I had the ability to impact someone else's life. And I took that responsibility of being a role model seriously. And so, I felt that pressure at a very young age. And it just became more and more magnified the more successful I got in the sport, making my first Olympic games when I was 15 years old in 1992 in Barcelona, Spain, and having the honor to meet the Dream Team and having Larry Bird call us onto his bus and say, "Hey ladies, we'd love to meet you!" DG: Oh, that's wild. DD: Wild. Like, I mean, my husband and I talk about, I don't bring up my career often, but he's like, that life was not for you to live. He's like your personality. Like, I'm so naturally introverted, naturally private. I don't get super high about anything, hopefully not too super low about anything. But it does feel like it was a lifetime ago. And I was a, I was very type A, still am. I had tunnel vision on; it was about accomplishing my dreams and my goals. And so now, when I look back at nearly 50 years old, the experiences that I was able to experience at such a young age. I wish I was able to enjoy it more. DG: There is a lot that is really difficult about being a professional athlete, especially a gymnast, even more so at the Olympic level. And then imagine you're still just a teenager. Dominique was doing it all while dealing with trouble at home and bullies at school. But the whole time, there was one thing that truly kept her going: the fans. What was it like being an 11-year-old introvert getting fan mail? DD: (Laughs) You know, everyone goes through these moments in school where they're, not everyone, but you know, a lot of people go through moments in school where they're bullied, and I was short, and I still am short. And I was that little pipsqueak in school that you know was made fun of because I was short. And back in the 80s, you know, they called very athletic, muscular girls, tomboys. So I was called a tomboy, and I had that very squeaky voice, and I don't know why, but every Olympic gymnast sounds like we sucked on helium. Like, we really do sound that way. INTERVIEWER: Can you regain top form, looking forward to the Atlanta Olympics? DOMINIQUE DAWES IN INTERVIEW: I hope to. I want to go back to the gym and train a lot harder like my coach said, and just really think of positive attitude and a lot more mental preparation. DD: And so, for that young person that I was, it was overwhelming. It was, I think, life-changing when I received fan mail letters because then I realized, wow, there's something good. There's something special about what I'm doing. Let me lean into this more. And that became my driving force in the sport of gymnastics. The sport when you're training for the Olympics or its elite level is a lot. I woke up at five o'clock in the morning. I trained from six to eight in the morning, public school till about 2:20. And then back to gymnastics practice, 3 to 8 p.m. at night or 4 to 9 p.m. at night. I'm a mother of four. My children are never doing that. Like that's just unheard of. Like it doesn't make sense, but it was for me, it got me out of the environment I was in and allowed me to, I don't know, springboard into something else that I've now turned into a career. But my little introverted self, it was the fan mail letters that kept me going because I realized, wow, there's something special that I'm delivering that I am bringing to the table, and that's positively changing the lives around me. And I think that really just helped me persevere for the 18 years in the sport. DG: It's so interesting because you know, you talk to some elite athletes and they'll say the outside attention, the outside pressure, feeling like they're doing this for other people to set an example, to be a role model, like none of that stuff really matters. It's all about you. You're saying very much the opposite, that knowing that there were little girls out there who were sending you letters... DD: And boys, and parents. DG: Was fueling you. DD: Yeah. It was fueling me because standing on top of a podium did nothing for me. Becoming a professional athlete and getting endorsements wasn't fulfilling for me, of course it was good coming from a middle-class family, a dad that owned a trash company, and we didn't have very much money whatsoever that I should have been like elated that I was getting these outside accolades or achieving these gold medals or monetary compensation, but that was all very fleeting to me, what was fulfilling to me was the impact that I was making. DG: Having fans by her side became especially important when you consider what Dominique had to go through while competing. As the only Black woman on the Magnificent Seven, she had to compete not just against her gymnast peers from all over the world, but also against racism from the judges scoring her and the media covering her performances. Critics said she didn't have the right look, that she was bow-legged, that her hair was askew. Dominique, I want to, you were sort of pointing to this when you were talking about the judges in '96, talking about your, your body shape and them feeling like you weren't the, the sort of classic model for a young gymnast going back and reading an LA Times story from that period, they said you were getting all sorts of comments about your hair, your bodyshape, but they said that what, what people were really trying to say, but weren't saying is that it was the color of your skin that made you different. What, what do you remember? I mean, like how, how hard was it being a Black gymnast, and how much did race play a role in some of the challenges that you faced? DD: There wasn't as much diversity back then on the national level and international level. And so, very much as a younger person, I was made to feel different. You're right, I would get comments about my hair. My hair needed to look a certain way. It needed to look like my white counterparts. There was always a deduction because of my bow legs. My coach would come back and say, "Well, you got that deduction again because your legs don't look like they should look." And I'm thinking to myself, as a child, I remember thinking I was born with these legs. Like what's wrong with, you know, what's wrong with my body type? And what my coach would do is she would sit on my legs and bounce, and like laugh as my legs were put on a very high mat about 12 or 18 inches off the ground. My heels were put up to bounce on my legs to try to get them to hyperextend. That is not normal, but maybe it was normal in the sport of gymnastics. Also, my bow legs, that's just how I was born. And I would always have to try to squeeze blocks to try and get my legs to be glued together, because if not, it was a deduction. No matter what I did, my body was just not embraced. Also, having flat feet, my toes didn't point like my counterparts did, and so my coaches would sit on my feet, and to this day, I have like protruding bones on the top of my feet, probably more like a ballerina because of them trying to bend my feet. So I knew I brought certain strengths to the table that the audience embraced, like the audience loved me. Everything that I did, three layouts, four layouts on beam, the full-end dismount off beam, even as a young child, 11, 12 years old, the up-and-back tumbling pass that people thought was like unreal, that I was like this Energizer Bunny, the audience would be chanting 10-0 and they would be captivated, but yet the powers that be made me always feel as if I was never good enough. DG: But you know, you're this young athlete, you're getting these fan letters that you said were helping to fuel you. You're facing some of these comments that clearly race was a backdrop for them. Like, did you know then that you were also, even though you were fighting through this pain, like expanding what was possible and paving the way for other Black athletes in gymnastics in the future? Did you feel that or? DD: I read it in fan mail letters. I heard it from parents, from grandparents, from aunts and uncles. I heard from kids. And it wasn't just young girls of color, young boys of color, and also young white girls that maybe had similar body types or had more of a stronger physique, and didn't have the Russian balletic look that the sport of gymnastics always embraced for so many years. The Russians were always so dominant that they were considered the creme de la creme and that we needed to look like them. And so I remember reading and hearing comments from so many people that were fans, that they loved what I brought to the table because it was different, because I was explosive, because I was dynamic. And I think that's what drew so many people to the sport of gymnastics. Still to this day, people will stop me on the streets or stop me after a speaking engagement, and they'll say, "Hey, I did the sport of gymnastics because of you." "Me and my older sister started flipping." But then they will say, we went to a gymnastics gym and we were told that we didn't have the right body type, that we were told we were too fat, or we were told that you know, we were too tall, or my parents couldn't afford all the private lessons because it was way too expensive. And it's sad to hear that many people had that drive and motivation to get into the sport of gymnastics. And they wanted to develop that passion, but they were stopped because the culture of the sport was so toxic. DG: I'm struck by so many things that you've said so far. Like one, that you are trying to enjoy life now because you weren't really, you didn't have the chance to enjoy it during those years. And also that you want the sport to change so people don't have to go through what you went through. I mean, take me back to those times. Like, what were the challenges? What was preventing you from enjoying life during those years when you were competing? DD: You know, I will say this, my household wasn't a very functional household. It wasn't a household full of love. And I think I chose the sport of gymnastics, recognizing that this would be an outlet for me that'll help me be able to maybe be able to go to college someday and get a college scholarship. I didn't envision it turning into a career whatsoever. But gymnastics was something that I was, it was a means to an end. Like I was using the sport gymnastics, you know, to set myself up for, you know, the latter part of my life to go to college and then beyond that. So, you know, coming from a tough household definitely motivated me to live in the gym. But then, when I look back at my experiences in the gym, that wasn't a healthy experience whatsoever either. Hundreds, if not thousands, of gymnasts have come forward talking about the abuses that they experienced in the sport of gymnastics, the physical, the emotional, the verbal abuse. Many people know the name Larry Nassar. He was my Olympic team doctor at the 1996 Olympic Games, at the 2000 Olympic Games. He's a monster. He was a monster, and he was disguised, you know, he was a wolf in sheep's clothing, and he was someone that we saw as a friend. And that's why I think I really, I don't know, want something different, you know, for today's generation of gymnasts. DG: The man Dominique just brought up, Larry Nassar, worked as the team doctor for the United States women's gymnastics team for nearly two decades, from 1996 through 2014. Years later, hundreds of women and girls came forward and revealed that they had been sexually abused by Nassar under the guise of medical treatment while he was in this position. He was sentenced to 40 to 175 years in prison in January of 2018. BROADCASTER: Former USA Gymnastics team doctor Larry Nassar has been sentenced to the maximum penalty for sexually abusing young women and girls he treated. Today's sentencing marked the end of a seven-day hearing in which more than 150 victims came face to face with their abuser. DG: You know, I think about what was exposed with the Larry Nassar story, and I look back as just a fan of sports and as someone who watched you and other athletes in the Olympics, and I feel a tremendous sense of, like, almost guilt that we as a culture and a society let you down, like we were rooting for you, not even understanding what you were facing. What is —like, should I feel that way? Did, did we let you down? Like, why did you have to go through that? DD: I think we didn't know what we were facing. I think everyone was enduring what they were enduring in the gymnastics gym, and it was a very tight bubble. And while we would commiserate and cry with one another, let's say my teammates in Maryland, about the pain we were feeling, the emotional pain we were feeling, you know, we were in our little bubble that every single person that we complained to was going through the same thing. And I think, we we were made to believe that. To, not me, but the coaches maybe were made to believe that to make a champion you have to tear someone down and you have to take into consideration these are young girls, these are six, seven, eight year old girls that get involved in the sport of gymnastics and the grooming begins then, the control begins then the fear begins then and it's not just with the kids, it's not just with the young athletes, it is with the parents as well and the parents many times you'll see the Olympic rings, you'll see you the sales pitch about a Division 1 scholarship and many parents bite the apple and they don't see the tears. They don't see the misery that they can see on their young child's face. And they maybe need to step back and say, "Hey, is this too much?" Is this something that my young daughter really is enjoying? And if you look back, like at my first facility in Clarksburg, Maryland, we opened it in the middle of a global pandemic. We opened our doors July, 2020. If you walk into that facility, I have articles of myself throughout the journey, making it to the Olympic Games. And there's a couple of articles where I look, and I'm like, oh my gosh, my younger self is so sad. I look emaciated. And how did my parents miss that? They weren't really present. You know, how did the public miss that these athletes are going through a lot physically, emotionally, and mentally. And I think people are so in awe of what Olympic gymnasts can do that they don't see maybe the pain that they're experiencing. And the thing is, I think we as gymnasts, we fake it well. You know, we put on that stoic face, and we're concentrating on, you know, the next routine at hand, that many people are, you know, they miss it. But what I say to people today, and it's been 30 years since the Magnificent Seven made history, I say the people today would you want your daughter at the end of that vault runway, when Kerri Strug was standing at the end of that vault runway, right? With the belief that she needed to make that vault to win it for Team USA. 40,000 people in the Georgia Dome, her coach, Bela Karolyi, yelling, "You can do it." It wasn't you can do it, it's "You will do it," and she hobbled down that vault runway and made that vault and landed on one foot. DG: I want to pause here and give you a little bit of context. If you don't remember this performance that Dominique is talking about, it is a really crazy story. So here's what happened. \[MUSIC\] DG: Dominique's teammate, 18-year-old Kerri Strug, seemed to be America's only hope for gold on the vault. ANNOUNCER: And the Americans could lose the team gold to Russia, so Kerri Strug, it is up to her. DG: Under the tremendous pressure of a global spotlight in her home country, Kerri went for it. ANNOUNCER: She's the last to go; she's the only one who can do it. DG: She ran for the vault, she launched off of it, and she fell. ANNOUNCER: Oh! Three falls in a row for the American... DG: Badly tearing two ligaments in her ankle. ANNOUNCER: She is limping. Kerri is hurt. Oh, this would be— this could be really bad DG: The thing is, her story didn't end there. Kerri was allowed to try again. And despite her severe injury, her coaches encouraged her to go for it. And so she did with one leg horrifically injured. She ran for the vault, launched off it, and landed on one leg. ANNOUNCER: She hurt herself on the first vault. Probably the last thing she should have done was vault again, but she did, and now she is in a lot of pain. The amazing thing about it, John, she raised her hands overhead, her head, she finished the vault. DG: She secured the gold for the U S and her performance was considered heroic at the time, but competing on the injury forced Kerri to retire early at the age of 18 and is now seen as a controversial example of an athlete being allowed to continue in competition when it is really not safe. DD: Now, I understand that there is a belief that the individual is a hero because of the pain she endured, that all seven of us were enduring at that time. However, I asked parents today, do you really want your kid to be at the end of that vault runway? The physical toll, the mental toll, and the emotional toll, is it really worth it? And I think when parents sit back and really think about it, like, wow, would I really want my kid to feel that pressure to have to go through that pain? No, I don't think so. You know, I really don't. Maybe as an adult. You know, maybe if you're in the military, you're preparing for battle, but this is sports, and these are young girls and teenage young girls. And so it has a lifelong lasting effect. And I think people need to rethink, you know, I don't know, you know, how things are in the culture of the sport of gymnastics and how we can change it to make it better for the athletes. DG: During the same Olympics, Dominique had her own moment, like Kerri's. ANNOUNCER: There's Dawes. DG: She was looking good for a medal for her individual all-around floor routine, but she slipped while tumbling. ANNOUNCER: Unreal, John. That is a huge deduction right there. DG: Dominique caught herself right away and kept going, finishing the rest of the routine flawlessly. But it was too late. The millisecond-long mistake dropped her to 17th place. I mean, when you were— a lot of pressure to one of the favorites to win gold in the individual all-around, and then you had the fall, and I think we all saw that image of you, it looked like you were torturing yourself in pain and disappointment. DD: Yeah, that's a bummer, right? DG: Yeah, I mean, what can you I mean? Can you —we all saw that moment so publicly, like what? DD: I know, I know. DG: What do you remember personally DD: It's crazy when I give speaking engagements, I asked people in the audience if they remember, there's a few hands that go up, and they look like they're about to cry, and I'm like, don't worry, I felt that same way 30 years ago, but I actually embrace that fall to this day. People asked me if I could redo it or if I could change anything in my career, would I have changed that? Would I have made more millions? Yes, I would have definitely become an American sweetheart and not like a Mary Lou because she was the first ever, but it definitely would have enhanced my professional career, but I'm grateful for that fall. I'm grateful. For the pain, for the mistake, for what I went through because I wouldn't be where I'm at today. I wouldn't have the perseverance. I would have the grit you know that I have today because of what I experienced in that all-around competition, and it's no one's fault but my own. You know, I think initially as a 19-year-old, and I think even at times as a 49-year-old, when you get rejection or no's or failures in life, you always want to point the finger outward. I wanted to blame it on my parents. They were going through a brutal divorce at the time I wanted to blame it on my coach. She's not a good person. She's a rotten person. I wanted to blame it on the judges. They didn't like my bow legs. They didn't like my flat feet. I was not the right look for what they wanted in the sport. And then I realized, you know what? You know, \[EXPLETIVE\] happens. You're gonna make mistakes in life. You can either commiserate over it and get stuck in the coulda, woulda, shoulda. Like, I wish I came from a loving family. I wish I had this. I wish I had that. I wish I would've won gold. You know, or you can not allow it to define you, but allow it to refine you in life. And it really has. And when I initially used to give my speaking engagements, I never talked about the fall. It was all about Magnificent Seven, gold medal, all the glorious times. And then when I started to mature in life, I realized I gained so much from the hardships in my life in my personal life, the hardships in my life even today as a mother, and as a wife. The hardships in my athletic career, that then I would start my speeches off with my Olympic fall, it'd be a video of my Olympic fall. And then I'd come out on stage, and the audience would gasp, and they were like, oh my gosh, they played the wrong video. And I was like, nope, that is exactly, that is exactly what I wanted to show you all. These things happen in life. \[MUSIC\] DD: You're gonna get rejected, you're gonna fall on your face, you're going to embarrass yourself, hopefully not in front of 40,000 people in the Georgia Dome and billions of people watching worldwide. I do not advise you to do that. However, it's going to make you stronger in life. And so whenever I go through hardships in life, I always look at it like this. Pain serves a greater purpose that leads to my passion that allows me to make a greater impact. DG: For the record, that mistake on the floor did not define Dominique at all. She still made history at the '96 Olympics. She came back from her mistake to win bronze on her next floor routine, making her the first Black woman ever to win an individual medal in Olympic gymnastics. And she helped the Magnificent Seven win a team gold medal, another first for the U.S. women. Accomplishments aside, Dominique still wishes she had a more supportive environment during her time competing on the Olympic stage. I mean, it sounds like gymnastics in the Olympics, like there's only room for heroism. There's no room for being a human being. That's a huge problem. DD: It is. In 2021, when Simone Biles stepped away, and I don't read a lot of articles, like I just don't, because people are giving their opinions. You know, Simone Biles stepped away because she did what she felt was best for herself. And it was her putting her mental health first. DG: Simone Biles, she is the 11-time US Olympic gymnast who stunned the world when she withdrew from multiple events at the Tokyo Olympics in 2021 to focus on her mental health. She came back for the Paris Games in 2024 to win three gold medals and one silver. DD: It was called the twisties or something that she was going through. And back in the day, when I was an athlete, many decades ago, it was just a mental block, and you were put down for it, and you need to snap out of it and figure it out. You're way too mental. And it's scary to go through that. I went through that many times throughout my career, but to go to through that during an Olympic Games, I don't know if people understand the level of difficulty of her gymnastics, that she could break a leg. That would be the most minimal injury she would have, and it could be much worse. That when she stepped away, I know that there was a lot of negative press about it. And I can relate, number one, I don't know what she was going through personally, but I know the weight was on that young girl for Team USA to win, she needed to be at her best. She needed to be a perfect 10, even though it's like 16.5 now, but she needed to be at her best. And that pressure and then the mental block and all of that, I think she did what was best for her, what I love more about her career — because I think it did develop a quitting mentality in a lot of people where they're like, oh, if I'm not feeling 100%, I'm not gonna show up to work today or I'm going to take a mental health day and not get back in the game. What I liked about her career is she came back, and she came stronger and was able to dominate again. I think people need to recognize that you need to listen to your inner voice and make sure your mental health, your emotional health, and your support system is the right support system of people so that you can do what you can and be at your best. DG: We’ll be right back with more from Dominique Dawes, here on Sports in America. MIDROLL DG: This is Sports in America. Let’s get right back into our conversation with Dominique Dawes. Dominique's difficult background, both at home and at the gym, inspired her to try to change the sport of gymnastics for future athletes. She opened her own gym called the Dominique Dawes Gymnastics Academy in July of 2020, located just about 30 minutes from her hometown in Maryland. Since then, she's opened eight more locations where kids can practice gymnastics, from New Jersey all the way to Texas. DD: At a young age, especially after my first and second Olympic Games, it was more about legacy. Like, who am I leading? Who's gonna follow in my footsteps? How am I inspiring the next generation? And that's what I found fulfilling. And that's why we started the Dominique Dawes Academy. We wanted to change the culture of the sport of gymnastics. I wanted young girls to not experience what I experienced in the sport. I wanted them to recognize that it's a very beautiful sport. It's the greatest foundation that a parent can give their child. The sport of gymnastics really is the flexibility, the strength, the coordination, and the balance that they can learn is quite valuable. And I have four beautiful children. They play flag football, they play golf, they play baseball, they play soccer, but gymnastics has helped them out in all of these different sports. And so it's always been about legacy. It's always been about impact. DG: It took a lot for Dominique to think of herself as the kind of person who could put herself out there and start her own academy. DD: I would have never started the gymnastics gyms, never. It's not my personality; I'm introverted, I am private, the whole community idea of things really does intimidate me. My husband, being the school teacher of nearly 20 years, extroverted, understanding the importance of a healthy environment, said when everything came out about Larry Nassar and the abuses in the sport, he said, you're not going to be called to be the CEO of USA Gymnastics, they don't want you involved, they don't want to hear your voice. However, you can start academies in our hometown of Maryland and do things the right way. You know what our four kids need to be happy in life. I know what our four needs to be in life, and so we started our first academy. That came from a place of pain. That was our motivation, and that was our why. And now, when I look, we're opening our seventh location this month, and then an eighth location and a ninth location because I've got some awesome business partners. I couldn't have done this alone. I got it to three, was burning out, and now I have business partners that are carrying a great deal more of the weight. Now I know, like this is the legacy and the impact that we're gonna make not just on hundreds or thousands, but on generations. And that's what's so fulfilling. But again, I remind myself it came from a place of pain, and that's what's motivated me. So that Olympic fall, if I see it today, I don't have it in my speeches now. Like I talk about it. I don't show the video cause it just really threw the audience off way too much. I'm grateful that it happened cause it made me who I am today. DG: What is your ultimate goal with the academies, would you say? Like, how do you hope to change the culture of the sport long-term? DD: I think it's to create a compassionate, empowering community. I think in youth sports, what's so valuable is the community that's built, and that's what makes it so fulfilling. My kids love sports, they're natural athletes, but I think what they love more are the friendships that they've built, the time off the field when they're not playing soccer. The time out of the dance studio, when they're not preparing for that exhibition or rehearsing, it's really about the relationships. And I think when you look at life, that is what's most fulfilling. We wanna achieve, we wanna get on top of the mountain, we wanna be the best we can be, of course, at whatever we're doing, but it's about creating that community. And that's what we're doing. It's a compassionate community, it's an empowering community. I had a speech in Orlando, and this gentleman runs up to me afterwards and comes backstage, and he said, you know, I have my daughter Quinn, who's a part of your XL Bronze Team, and she plays multiple sports, which I was happy to hear because I'm like, don't just do gymnastics. Like you do not want your child just to do gymnastics, I only did gymnastics, I'm one-dimensional. Like you need to make sure your kid is playing multiple sports and in different extracurricular activities. Don't burn them out, but don't have them solely focused on one sport. And he said. "She will not miss gymnastics because she's having so much fun." That to me is a testament to our amazing coaches that care about what they're doing and the valuable friendships this little itty bitty is gaining each and every day she goes to practice. She looks forward to seeing, yes, the coach. She looks to, yes, learning that round off back handspring, but she looks forward to hanging out with her friends. And that's like, that's something that I think is so important about one's childhood. I didn't have that. Like I trained for three Olympic Games. I stay in touch with a couple of my teammates from Maryland, and we'll reminisce about the gym and laugh about things that maybe we can laugh about, but I wish I had so much more of that. And that's really what we're trying to do with these academies, compassionate, empowering community. And that's what we built, and we hope to continue to do that. DG: Building a supportive community out of pain has really become Dominique's life work and not just through her gyms. She's carried that sense of purpose into other areas of her life. \[MUSIC\] DG: In February of 2017, for example, Dominique suffered a miscarriage at 11 weeks pregnant. She chose not to deal with that alone. She shared her experience with her friends, her family, and her fans on Facebook. It sounds like you want to touch the lives of parents as much as you do the kids who are, who are training, and in all ways. I mean, I think back, it's, it's been a while now, but I know you, you spoke out very personally about a, you know, a personal tragedy, going through a miscarriage. I remember you coming out and wanting to do anything you could to use your own suffering as an example for parents to understand what it's like to, to go through that. Like, what drives that in you and in moments like that? DD: You know, I had known a number of friends that had gone through a miscarriage and they had communicated it to me and I think I didn't realize how many people had been through miscarriages and I thought, you know, it's okay for us to speak publicly about our pain because I think sometimes when you hold it in, it can eat away at you and it was something that was very difficult for me and for my husband. I think we forget about the men that go through that as well. I think you guys can compartmentalize a little bit better than we can. But I felt a need to speak out about my pain. I think for whatever reason, I speak out more about my pains in life than I do about what the world says is success and what the world says will fulfill you. And I think the thing is, there's one thing that's common, and we will go through hardships in life, and I felt like it— you know, we need to normalize the fact that we go through this pain, let's share it with others, let's let it out, and I think it helps us as a community heal. And I think that's why I felt motivated to put a post out there about it to let women and men know that it's okay and it's okay to cry. And every now and then, I will break down about it. We believe it was another set of twins. And my husband and I have a strong faith, and we say we got two little twins up there looking over after all six of us. And after that miscarriage, I think it was about three or four months later, we were blessed to conceive another set of twins that we were able to carry to full term, so. DG: I keep thinking about the theme that you talk about, that like going through pain makes you who you are, and you wouldn't want it any other way. I mean, that's really powerful stuff. DD: Yeah, it's not that I don't look around, I say this quite a bit, but it's not that I don't look around and see moms with their daughters in cafes or sitting in cars and wishing that I had a mom that was capable of loving, or a dad even, but daughters really love being with their moms. But it makes me recognize that my number one calling and vocation in life is being a mother. And I'm blessed to have these four beautiful children. You know, three daughters and a son. And, you know, I value the time that I spend with my kids because I know it's not gonna last forever. And I think the pain that I went through as a child helps me maybe appreciate what I have today even more. DG: I want to finish in a way that honors what you say you think is important to talk about, which is pain. Is there a low point from your childhood that you can tell me about, and then tell me what sort of current-day Dominique would tell that little girl in terms of how to deal with it? \[MUSIC\] DD: There was quite a few low points. I think we all go through hardships, you know, in life. But I think what I would tell my younger self is. I would tell my younger self that you're not alone, and He is there, you know. You might not have felt His presence, but He is here, and he will make sure you will prosper. And I think- DG: Who is He? DD: The Lord, the Lord is there. He's gonna help you through. He's going to lift you up. This pain is temporary. This is gonna help refine you. It's not gonna define you, kinda coming from a certain household or, you know, believing something lowly of yourself, you know, that you're not alone, and you know that pain serves a greater purpose. DG: I'm sorry you faced that bullying and all of that pain as a kid, but it's extraordinary to see you today. And thank you for the way that you touch the world and motivate people, and set an example. DD: No problem. Well, thank you so much. And I know many people go through hardships in life. And my biggest message to them is just don't give up. \[THEME MUSIC\] DG: Next time on Sports in America… JOSH SHAPIRO: What’s up, Philly! DG: We’re talking to one of the more underrated Philly sports fans, Josh from Juniata, he's a frequent caller into local sports radio JS: I've always called in. I've been engaged. I always wanted to vent like a regular fan, and when the teams did something great, I wanted to celebrate that. DG: Oh, and this guy also moonlights as the Governor of Pennsylvania. On a special episode of our show, we recorded our conversation with Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro live at the World Cup. We talk about his hopes for the 76ers, his earliest sports memories, and if he’s sure that hosting World Cup matches is a good thing for his city and his state. JS: You go talk to people in the stands who are here cheering for their team. They don't care who you voted for. They don't really care what your politics are. They're just here to watch world-class soccer. DG: That’s next time, on Sports in America. This is Sports in America. I'm your host, David Greene. Our executive producers are Joan Isabella and Tom Grahsler. Our senior producer is Michael Olcott. Our producer is Michaela Winberg, and our associate producer is Bibiana Correa. Also, production help on this episode came from Sherri Daye Scott from WABE in Atlanta. Our engineer is Mike Villers. Our theme music is composed by Emma Munger. Our talent booker is Britt Kahn. Our tile artwork was created by Bea Walling. Sports in America is a production of WHYY in Philadelphia and is distributed by PRX. Some of our interviews were originally created by Religion of Sports, with special thanks to Adam Schlossman. You can find sports in America on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon music, the iHeart radio app, you know, wherever you get your podcasts. And we also want to hear from you. How about you drop us a line? You can write us at sportsinamerica@whyy.org. That's sportsinamerica@whyy.org. Thanks, everyone. And we will see you next time for Sports in America.