Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / #17 Hell Questions

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#17 Hell Questions · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, Tim Wright here.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: I want to welcome you to the Deep Grace Diving Podcast, normally with Tim Wright and Terry Summers.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: But we have some sad news about Terry.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: Her husband, Jonathan, passed away probably a month ago now by the time you hear this.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Passed away a month ago.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was unexpected.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: It was sudden.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: And they were celebrating their wedding anniversary, and he passed away that night.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're giving her a little bit of time off to regroup.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I know you all appreciate her, and you're going to want to keep her in your prayers.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so we all send out our love and prayers to Terry today.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: So filling in is a good friend of mine, John D. Burgess.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: John, what does the D stand for?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Paul.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Paul.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't make any sense.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, but it's our joke.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's our ongoing joke for three decades.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it works.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: So John and I have known each other for a long time, a long time.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: And we have spent a lot of hours sort of doing an unrecorded podcast because we do
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: about once a month,
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: we get together and we just talk theological stuff,
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: trying to get our brains around how the Bible works,
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: how God works.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought it would be good to have John come in
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: and bring just a little different perspective to the program today.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: We have spent the last four episodes looking at the question.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Let me read it for you again.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: It comes from one of our listeners.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: I was always taught that we must decide to accept Christ before we breathe our last breath,
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: or we will end up in hell forever.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: I know one can find scriptures to support this view,
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: but are there also scriptures that support the view that Christ will continue to
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: pursue unbelievers after death?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so we have been deep diving into that one question from various angles.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: We talked a bit about hell and that the word isn't even in scripture.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: And we have talked last week a little bit about fairness and grace and justice,
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: which we're going to pick up on again,
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: either today or in next week's recording.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I do want to just remind you that this all really centers itself in Scripture
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: passages that talk about how all will be saved.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: For example, 1 Timothy 2, there is one God.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: There is also one mediator between God and humankind,
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus Christ himself,
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: who gave himself a ransom for all.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then in Titus 2, verse 11, for the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And over and over again,
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: we see Paul and other writers using that word all,
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: and eventually every knee will bow.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: And every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll probably spend more time looking at that last verse next week when we ask
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: the question,
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: all right,
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: let's assume that everybody is saved through Jesus.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: what happens when we all stand before the throne of Jesus for that very first time,
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Christians and unbelievers alike?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: But John has been listening.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, he's able to listen a bit differently than Terry is.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Terry listens in the moment.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And John's had a chance to kind of sit back and take all this in.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so he has a bunch of questions for clarification,
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: which means either I haven't been as articulate as I thought I was,
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: or he just hasn't really been listening as articulately as he usually does.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: But actually,
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think that John's questions are probably questions that people are asking because
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: this stuff,
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: at least on the surface, seems to be so new.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: But let's just remind ourselves that this view of salvation was one of the main
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: views of Christianity in the early days of the Christian movement.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it began to splinter off in part through theological discussions and in part
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: through controlling people.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: You want to control religious people and non-religious people, hold out the threat of hell.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: But if you want to transform people's lives, hold out the promise of grace.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what we're talking about.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: So John's got a bunch of questions.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think this will be helpful just to clarify again what we're talking about because
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: it is so new for many of us.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: So John D., take it away.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: What's your first question?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to start by saying,
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: unlike Terry,
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: I am neither the actor of the year nor a professional comedian entertainer.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you should lower your expectations.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, John, tell him that you are in your real life.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: You are a. I am a military reserve officer and lawyer.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: within the military, at least for the next few months.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so John asks questions like a lawyer.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: but we're ready to prosecute for the defense.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And well, yes.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: And the words, the words are important, right?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: The words are important.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so now that you've lowered your expectations,
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: so that the first question I have is what do we do with the pieces of scripture
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: that immediately come to mind?
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like getting into heaven,
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm paraphrasing,
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: you have to help me out,
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_01: but getting into heaven is like a camel passing through the needle.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: the head of the needle.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: I have the needle, thank you.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or really, I am the way, the truth, and the life.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody gets to the Father but through me.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Weren't we using those kind of pieces of scripture to hang our understanding on of what is truth here?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: And how do I figure that out?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start with Jesus saying, I am the way, the truth, and the life.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why when I talk about being a universalist, I am not a universalist.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: I am a Christian universalist.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe the Bible speaks Christian universalism,
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: which means that everybody will be saved through the death and resurrection of
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus and God's word and promise of grace that comes to us through Jesus and Jesus alone.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of whatever, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: So God's grand scheme,
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: for reconciling the world to God's self,
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: for putting back together the world that we have broken,
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: is to work through Jesus.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it's only through Jesus and his death and resurrection that God brings about restoration,
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: brings about healing.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: And one day, everybody will stand before the throne of Jesus and they'll get it.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll say, all right, I may have missed it in my life, but I get it now.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: So Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's the way that God saves.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I believe the story of the Bible is saying.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, Tim, this helps me out a lot because my thinking on this goes like this.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm going to buy into and believe in this loving, gracious God, and I do,
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Then I have to believe that there are there's questions that I can't answer
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: regarding segments of people that trouble me.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean to when I say segments of people, I don't mean to malign someone.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: I just mean to think of people like what about people that are growing up in a very
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: remote place of the earth?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: And they they never get no one ever talks to them about really like we haven't
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: reached those people for whatever reason.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: I have to like in my mind and in my heart, I have to think, what is my loving God doing with that?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned last week,
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: you mentioned,
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: what do I do with someone who in the moment,
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: which is basically all of us living a life compared to eternity in the moment,
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: makes a decision to reject God.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: What do I do?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: What happens to that person?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Your point,
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: last week was that seems a little unequal that you would spend trillions of years
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: in somewhere that's terrible because of that moment.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: What do I do with the people that have been presented sort of a skewed version of theology?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And they've rightfully rejected that that version of Christianity when that's not actual Christianity.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I hear you say now is that that that there's a plan.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that there's a plan is right in line with the God that we know and study.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: what's sort of interesting,
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: when you listed out all those different concerns,
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: all of them had to do with how we respond to God.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the gospel is not about how we respond to God.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: The gospel is about how God responds to us.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: When we were helpless and powerless to save ourselves, Jesus died for us.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: God,
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: through Jesus,
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: reconciles the world to himself,
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: brings the world back together under God's reign and God's rule.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's all God's work.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And if the starting point for God and the ending point for God is love,
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: and in between that is grace,
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: then somehow,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: in some way,
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: God will not abandon God's people.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: And when I say God's people, I mean what God has created.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I've been listening to and reading a book, and I'll put it in the show notes.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's called Reading Genesis.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And the author is looking at the story from a literary theological point of view,
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: and she does some really nice work of showing us some of the shocking passages
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: already in Genesis that
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: where people like Abraham have encounters with people we would consider to be pagan.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And it's these pagans who act more Jewish than Abraham does.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And God doesn't reject them.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: God protects them.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: And God says they're in too.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because remember, Abraham, the purpose of the Jewish people is to be a blessing to all people.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then she talks about the book of Job.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're going off on a little tangent, but we'll bring it back.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: The book of Job is written,
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Job is an Edomite,
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: is what she was saying,
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: which was,
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: that was kind of a surprise to me.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: But the Edomites were enemies of the Jews.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And she said,
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: here you have Job,
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: who's considered an enemy of the Jews,
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: who is one of the most articulate wisdom authors or speakers in the whole Bible.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, you have Ruth, who is a Moabite, a hated enemy.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: She becomes part of the line of Jesus.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so this, even in the Old Testament, you see over and over again, God does not throw away anybody.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: But God is constantly at work through his promises,
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: his covenants,
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: through Jesus,
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: ultimately,
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: to bring all people into relationship with God.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, it is God who saves and God saves through Jesus.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: your examples there are people that are doing,
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: let's just say the people that are doing godly things,
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: but don't necessarily know God.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if I take your point, your point is like that they're in.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: God's got a plan for them.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: The loving God is going to bring them into the fold of the family.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think so the natural,
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: if I have that right,
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: the natural progression of that logic now is to go back to your example of what
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: about the person who is not acting godly?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: So this is back to Hitler.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, again, let's go to the Old Testament when Jonah is called to go to sinful Nineveh.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, he doesn't want to go because he knows God's going to forgive them.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: So over and over again,
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: you just see these stories of God coming through the Jewish people and then through
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus to those who are broken,
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: hurting,
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: evil.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And he does it in such a way as to put their lives back together.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: So again, I think that the whole story, it's not about us.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly it's about us because we're created in the image of God,
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: but it's about God's relationship with us.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a God who pursues us.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: He pursues the prodigal.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: He pursues the lost lambs.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And lost isn't about being lost.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: We often think of, oh, that poor child who got lost, right?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not what the prodigal son story is about.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: He made himself lost.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: He made choices to hurt his family.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the father runs after him and forgives him without an apology.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's the story of the gospel is that Jesus,
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: God through Jesus doesn't give up on anything that God has created.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I've ever heard you mentioned the prodigal story before.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, probably not.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Only every time I can.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so then the next question that I had,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm just going to keep asking you questions until you remind me that you've
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: already answered it,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: is you went really fast last time on,
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: God's plan for terrible people and how that related to God's plan for essentially
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: pretty good people.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it was so fast.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think I missed it.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: I, but I, I thought what you were saying was, um,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: If Christians decide that Jesus is it and then go on to live just heinous,
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: terrible lives,
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: grace covers those people.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's a tentative yes.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: And people that are not Christians that never know Christ or choose to reject
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Christ and live terrible,
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: heinous lives,
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: grace covers those people.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let me say this.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus died and rose again for everyone.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the grace that that offers is and will be extended to everybody.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: And if they don't get it on this side of heaven, they'll get it on the other side.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: I know that we want to make a distinction between those who are following Jesus and those who are not.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not quite what this topic is.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: This topic is about, at the end, who will have the final say over our lives?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Will evil or will God?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the cross says that was answered 2,000 years ago.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: Death couldn't hold Jesus.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Evil couldn't stop Jesus.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sin couldn't contaminate him.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so because Jesus died and rose again,
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: God has demonstrated you can resist,
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: you can do whatever you want,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: but God will not give up on you,
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: and God's going to have the final word.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a blanket statement to go out and do evil.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Why would we want to do that?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Christians are not, right?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, obviously, we do a lot of it.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: But we weren't created for that.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: We were created for good.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: So we're kind of talking two different things.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: There are those who are obviously missing out on the grace and love of Jesus right now.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: But what I think scripture is saying is that they can't miss out on it for eternity
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: because God simply will not allow that to happen.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: that's just,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: if we were smart,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: we'd end right there because that's just,
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: that's the ballgame,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's incredible.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: but it still raises,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: it's uncomfortable for us because as you said before we got on,
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: this is such a different way of looking at scripture than what most of us are
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: raised with.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: And with the predominant understanding of Christianity that took over a few
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: centuries ago,
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: that sort of pushed aside a more universalistic Christian universalism.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And again, you can kind of understand it because already we're throwing in some ifs and whatabouts.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: but if people don't believe and they're just living these really crappy lives and well,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: if I'm a Christian and I'm going to go to heaven anyway,
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: why don't I just go out and sin?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: And all of those things are just, they're not even really well thought out arguments.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think I used this with Terry before.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: When I marry my wife,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: why would I go out and say,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: now that I'm married and I know she loves me,
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to go out and have as many affairs as possible.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's just, you don't even ask those questions when you've been so commanded by love.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to hurt the person that loves you.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the same with those of us who are Christians.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now, we do make mistakes.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: We do get caught up in some really bad theology that allows us to spew hatred.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just bad theology.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's not bad Jesus.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: But what we're talking about here is,
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: we'll spend more time sometime about the Christian life now,
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: but we're talking about really the big picture.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: does the death and resurrection of Jesus have the ultimate word on every single person,
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: whoever walks planet earth?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: And is there a power stronger than the power of God?
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so that really leads me to the next question.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And this is kind of the big one.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is where the rubber meets the road for just normal, run of the mill people like me.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: What makes me think of this is we go have a grocery store here close to where I live.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And every time I go to the grocery store,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: there's people outside and they want me to sign their document to get a certain
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: issue put on the ballot,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: which is as close to politics as I'm going to get.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: But, but I always think like there's several issues.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: this last time there must've been seven or eight and I,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: and I always walk away thinking I have elected representatives that are supposed to
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: be figuring this out.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Why do I have to figure out all the stuff?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I have people that are supposed to be doing that for me.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you, we all like people for certain reasons.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: So now I, you know,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: I understand that when I'm trying to relate to this indescribably large and loving God,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just little me that part of that is I need to be willing to grow in my faith.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: I need to be willing to critically think about the things that I'm reading and seeing.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: I need to realize that my understanding of,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: of of certain issues when I was a teenager is not going to be my understanding when
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm 54.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that is the I think the relationship that we're in.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Stop me whenever you want to.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: So now I get to the question, which is, this is a big one.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: so we've been told,
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: really,
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: we've been told and preached at and continue to be even to this day that like
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: there's heaven and there's hell and there's a little bit of a carrot here.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's called grace, but there's kind of a stick here and it's called hell.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what you need to do.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and this is a this is a big this is a big this is things that people need to
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: think and pray about and work on for sure.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: But there's also,
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: a little bit of frustration that like,
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: can the church figure this stuff out so I don't have to figure everything out on
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: behalf of the church?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like what is what is my part in this?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: As a guy who's just trying to be a good parent and hold down a job and be loving to
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: people when they cut me off in traffic.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: That basically comes out of traffic.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know that there's necessarily an easy answer to that.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think that it's important to listen.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: For Christians who really want to take their faith seriously, it's important to
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: to listen to different voices.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And when we listen to different voices,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: we always want to ask the question,
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: what does that person think about the character of God?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Based on what I'm hearing from that person, what is their starting point for God?
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is God angry?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is God out to get us?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then just because God felt obligated to us, he decided to
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: absolutely obliterate his son through the most horrific death ever,
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: rather than us,
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: so that he could show us a modicum of love and grace?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Are we seeing, is this person's view of God that of sort of a loosey-goosey God?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Just, yeah, whatever.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you want to believe in me, great.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't, that's fine too.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: It all comes out in the wash.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Or does it start with a God who created the world
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: out of love and grace who loves to the point of death creation and not just humans,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: but creation and went and made the radical step of becoming a human being so that
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: God could experience what we experience and save us from it.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: Ultimately, uh, is God, a God of loving grace who pursues us with love, um,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: who cares about the way that we live our lives because he doesn't want to see us hurt.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't want us breaking things.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: But his grace and his forgiveness keeps reaching out to us and drawing us back.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to always be listening to these voices and saying, what is it that they're saying about God?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And secondly, what kind of person does that voice make me?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: What kind of a Christian am I?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Does my Christianity show love and compassion?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: Is my Christianity combative and intolerant and judgmental?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Is my Christianity snarky and arrogant toward those other Christians that I think have it wrong?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is my Christianity just downright mean-spirited?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: and lacking in any kind of love at all.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it always comes from the character of God.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And when we listen to these other voices, read other authors, what are they saying about God?
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then what kind of person does that call me to be?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: If God is condemning, I'm going to be condemning.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: If God is judgmental, I'm going to be judgmental.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: If God is radically compassionate to anyone and everyone,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Then that's what I'm called to be and to do.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: So even though that doesn't necessarily say why can't all of us get on the same page,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: part of that has to do with,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: humans can't agree on anything.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: There are probably people listening to this podcast who think the Green Bay Packers
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: are worth cheering on.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's dumbfounding to me.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: But whether it's politics,
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's values,
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: whether it's Jesus or Islam or Judaism,
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: in the Christian faith,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: what is it we're saying about God?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: What is it we're saying about God's relationship with human beings?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then what does that view of God say about the kind of Christian that I'm becoming?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, the big problem with the backers is they keep getting the perfect quarterback every time.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: I just can't stand it.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: I can't either.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: But so that so here's the thing is,
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think what you're calling us to and I think what is going through my mind and my
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: heart is there's just certain things that that if you follow them logically lead us
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: to an uncomfortable spot that requires some churn and some thought and some prayer.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is one of those things.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: This is what you're asking,
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: what you're inviting people to do is think about a different kind of hell than what
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: we sort of have grown up with.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: And a more expansive grace than we sort of thought was true all along that is in
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: line with the character of God and yet still leads us to some places that are
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: somewhat uncomfortable because they could be foundational places of our faith.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that requires some work on our part.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we as human beings, we're sort of hardwired for fairness.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, ironically, we're talking to a lawyer.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: And what lawyers are supposed to want fairness, at least that's what we hope fairness and justice.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: We want the law upheld and we want people who don't uphold the law to be punished.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, God doesn't work in that environment.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: And, and that's really hard for us to understand because,
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: that God does do justice, God does do mercy, but God is not a punitive judge.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: God is a restorative judge.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's a radically different way of understanding the legal system or, and in this case, God.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: And as long as I'm on God's side,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Hell's a great idea, right?
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm not going.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: But when you start thinking about your loved ones who maybe have rejected the faith
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: or are just apathetic toward the faith,
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: you think about relatives who get themselves into trouble through addiction or make
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: decisions that really sort of set their life trajectory in a negative way.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then you sort of say, oh boy, I hope God's graceful because we love those people.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And, and one of the things that hell does is it, it enables us to create distance between us and them.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And as long as there's a hell, they're going there.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't need to care about them.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think that's not what you love.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: The Lord, your God with heart, soul, mind, and strength and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: We were never called to hate.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: We're called.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: And, and I think for, I think the trap that Christians can fall into is, uh,
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: sort of an us-them mentality.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now that I have decided the following things, there's a group that's out and I'm the group that's in.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is just human nature, by the way.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's necessarily Christians and I don't mean to constantly deride my
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: own people here,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: I just think it's human nature to say,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: I've made the right choice and there's people that have not made the right choice.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: And in a walk in faith, it's even more important or more apparent
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because the walk of faith can sometimes be difficult, right?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what we're called to is caring for people that we might not even meet.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: And what does it mean to respond with grace when people bump into us throughout life,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: which I think is a quote of yours.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so now that I'm walking this more difficult walk because I,
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: quote,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: made the right decisions and other people haven't,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: I can sort of justify this stuff on my own.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_01: And now once again, I'm getting back to my response and not God's.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what you're going to say before we end.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: part of it is this whole discussion about hell is that we've taken this wonderful
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: invitation by Jesus to follow him into the world,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: bringing grace through tangible acts of love,
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: setting the oppressed free,
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: bringing good news to the poor,
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: so on and so forth.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: We've compressed it down to a decision.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if you make the right decision,
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: you have found the essence of Christianity.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't have to worry about it anymore.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Now,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Martin Luther would say,
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: on the one hand,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: you don't have to worry about it because Jesus already loves you.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to earn God's love anymore.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: So now go out and love your neighbor as you love yourself and do the things that Jesus does.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: But we've lost a lot of that.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's just about making the right decision.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then we define Christianity based on that decision.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: How many times a month do you go to worship?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Do you read your Bible?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: How's your prayer life?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: How's your financial giving?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Those become the things that support a decision.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: And they're all about me versus saying,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: John,
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: when's the last time that you went down and fed somebody who's hungry?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: When's the last time you went to a jail and met with some prisoners there?
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: When was the last time you stood on the steps of your Capitol to stand up against
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: some systemic law in your community that robs people of the ability to get jobs?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Those are the questions that I think Jesus would be asking us.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: But evangelism has become about getting people to make decisions.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: And while we want people to make wise decisions,
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is inviting people into a relationship of reconciliation with our neighbors.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it begins with grace and treating them graciously.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: even though hell is sort of a discussion for the end in a sense,
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: what we believe about hell determines the kind of Christian that we are in this
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: life right now.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so we want to make sure we get that right.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I have only about 200 questions.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: So did you want those the next time?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: So what we'll do is the next time around, we're actually going to wrap up.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: I've got some things I want to talk about in terms of,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: all right,
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: if everybody is saved and everybody will stand before the throne of Jesus,
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: what will that experience be like?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_00: how does Jesus deal with the Hitlers of the world or the people who have rejected Jesus?
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Do they go through something?
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to come back to that next time.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: You have been listening to the Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Tim Wright.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: You've been here with John D. Burgess.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to take you out as we always do with the Morse code that's saying grace.