Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / KOHBERGER, 'DRESSED LIKE TED BUNDY' FOR SELFIE, XANA 'CHASED DOWNSTAIRS; STABBED

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KOHBERGER, 'DRESSED LIKE TED BUNDY' FOR SELFIE, XANA 'CHASED DOWNSTAIRS; STABBED · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace and eerie Brian Coburger selfie
0:09
Speaker 1: emerges where he's dressed like Ted Bundy. This as shock,
0:15
Speaker 1: evidence comes forth, evidence that Xanna was not killed in
0:21
Speaker 1: her sleep, she was literally chased down the stairs that
0:28
Speaker 1: stabbed dead. Is that true? I'm Nancy Grace, this is
0:34
Speaker 1: Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.
0:53
Speaker 2: Don't know what.
0:59
Speaker 3: She's not waking.
1:02
Speaker 1: They saw some man in their house as nice. So
1:07
Speaker 1: much has developed over the last days in the Brian
1:11
Speaker 1: Coburger prosecution, in the deadly slangs of four beautiful University
1:16
Speaker 1: Idaho students, which we thought before tonight had all been
1:21
Speaker 1: stabbed dead quasi if not totally in their sleep in
1:26
Speaker 1: their own beds. But now a shocking theory has emerged
1:31
Speaker 1: that Xanna, Beautiful Xana, was actually chased downstairs and then murdered.
1:42
Speaker 1: This as an eerie a haunting selfie emerges. Oh there
1:49
Speaker 1: you go, Brian Coberger dressed like Ted Buddy. Now why
1:55
Speaker 1: would the white bread boy from the Poconos dress like
2:02
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy and take eerie selfies? You know what, before
2:08
Speaker 1: we even get to the news, I need a drink
2:13
Speaker 1: and a shrink. But sadly, I'm a teetotaler, So straight
2:16
Speaker 1: out to doctor Bethany Marshall joining us Psychoalys from the
2:20
Speaker 1: La Jurisdiction. You can see her now on Peacock. She's
2:23
Speaker 1: the author of deal Breakers on Amazon and you can
2:26
Speaker 1: find her at doctor Bethanymarshall dot com. Bethany, why why
2:34
Speaker 1: is he all dressed like Ted Bundy for a series
2:37
Speaker 1: of selfies? Action looks like he's the star in a
2:44
Speaker 1: Slice and Dice movie.
2:46
Speaker 3: What's this dexter?
2:49
Speaker 1: You know, Nancy?
2:49
Speaker 3: This tells me that had he not been apprehended, he
2:53
Speaker 3: would have gone on to kill if Ted Bundy is
2:57
Speaker 3: his idol and Ted Bundy is a serial killer, killed men,
3:01
Speaker 3: killed women, had a completely deviant life that this tells
3:06
Speaker 3: me that this was Brian Coberger's first rodeo, this first
3:11
Speaker 3: mass killing, and this was just practicing for all the
3:16
Speaker 3: killings to come. This is his idol, so he's going
3:19
Speaker 3: to form his entire offending pattern around his idol. This
3:25
Speaker 3: is more evidence that Brian Coberger should never ever be
3:29
Speaker 3: let loose in society.
3:31
Speaker 1: Again, Okay, you're preaching to the chron on that dodtor.
3:35
Speaker 1: Bethany bo was looking for something else something that I
3:38
Speaker 1: can't regurgitate myself. I'm trying to figure out why mister
3:44
Speaker 1: button down Oxfordshire is dressing like Ted Bundy and a selfie.
3:49
Speaker 1: Think of Halloween. You know how all the sorority girls
3:53
Speaker 1: dress up like hookers, right, So this says something, Bethany,
3:57
Speaker 1: something deeper than I learned in law school. Why is
4:01
Speaker 1: he dressing up like Ted Bundy? It means something? For
4:05
Speaker 1: Pete's sake.
4:06
Speaker 3: The first patient I ever saw as an intern, I
4:08
Speaker 3: was twenty five years old, was a young woman who
4:11
Speaker 3: looked like little bo Peep from the waist up and
4:14
Speaker 3: like a hooker from the waist down. She had fishnet stockings,
4:17
Speaker 3: stiletto heels. She was a church secretary, and so she
4:22
Speaker 3: had this duality in her personality. And this is what
4:25
Speaker 3: I see in Brian Coberger. In fact, we call it
4:27
Speaker 3: a vertical split in my field, where one half of
4:31
Speaker 3: the person's personality could be deviant, naughty, counter society, maybe
4:39
Speaker 3: even homicidal, and the other part is sort of like
4:42
Speaker 3: a do gooder, and the two sites are not integrated.
4:46
Speaker 3: They could go and give a birthday cake to Grandma
4:50
Speaker 3: and celebrate Grandma and then go rape the old lady
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Speaker 3: next door. So it's very scary when you see these
4:56
Speaker 3: kinds of lack of integration with people of certain types
5:00
Speaker 3: of pathology, because it tells you that deb inside could
5:03
Speaker 3: be so so deep, because it's hidden even from their
5:06
Speaker 3: own consciousness.
5:07
Speaker 1: Sometimes joining me an ullstar panel to make sense of
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Speaker 1: what we are learning tonight. And I want to go
5:14
Speaker 1: straight out to another renowned guess. It's Howard Bloom, author
5:19
Speaker 1: of When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the
5:22
Speaker 1: Idaho student murders. He has done extensive research on this case,
5:29
Speaker 1: talk to people we've never even heard of in his
5:32
Speaker 1: effort to get to the truth of what happened. You
5:35
Speaker 1: may know Coburger better than any of us, and I
5:39
Speaker 1: want to hear what you think about why.
5:42
Speaker 4: He's dressing up like Ted Bundy of all people. Well,
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Speaker 4: first of all, you know that's taking a leap of faith.
5:48
Speaker 4: Sometimes a black puddie is just a black hoiddie. I mean,
5:53
Speaker 4: there's no crime wearing a black hoiddie. So is he
5:58
Speaker 4: posing as Ted Bundy or is he just some guy
6:01
Speaker 4: wearing his black hoodie?
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Speaker 1: Okay, stop, just stop, please please just stop. Just a
6:08
Speaker 1: black hoodie. You know I've got a black hoodie, and
6:10
Speaker 1: I don't look like that at a selfie, a positioned selfie.
6:15
Speaker 1: It's not like he's holding his phone like that. Some
6:17
Speaker 1: of that is up on a tripod or set up somehow.
6:22
Speaker 1: Why is he doing not that one? Not that one?
6:24
Speaker 1: Let me see the other one. Go, yes, that one.
6:29
Speaker 1: You want to tell me he's just just wearing a
6:31
Speaker 1: black hoodie. No, he's not just wearing a black hoodie. Here.
6:35
Speaker 1: He is communicating something that one evokes Ted Bundy. That
6:40
Speaker 1: is not innocent. He's looking all thuggish and menacing. So
6:43
Speaker 1: it's not that he just ran out and bought a
6:45
Speaker 1: black hoodie. I've got a black hoodie and I don't
6:48
Speaker 1: take freaky selfies in it. There's a difference. What is
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Speaker 1: a difference? Speak Bloom again.
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Speaker 2: I don't find I just find that a disconcerting stare.
6:56
Speaker 2: He's giving into the camera, he's posing, he's making faces.
7:00
Speaker 2: There's no crime in doing that.
7:02
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really a large leap.
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Speaker 2: Of faith to condemn him for that. There's so much
7:07
Speaker 2: more evidence there to look at and to proposes that
7:11
Speaker 2: he makes in front of his own camera. It's really
7:16
Speaker 2: doing a psychological analysis of a selfie.
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Speaker 1: When you have a whole series of self you pick
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Speaker 1: out one.
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Speaker 2: I think that's a large leap of faith, and it's speculative.
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Speaker 2: We can be speculative. Let's be speculative, but let's also
7:29
Speaker 2: give him the benefit of the doubt of what that
7:32
Speaker 2: selfie means.
7:33
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us. Okay, you use the term
7:38
Speaker 1: vertical split, and it makes me think of other killers
7:44
Speaker 1: such as BTK buying torture kill, Dennis Reider, who was
7:48
Speaker 1: literally a church deacon by day and a serial killer
7:53
Speaker 1: slash dog catcher by night, murdering people, women, even children
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Speaker 1: that in bizarre sexual ways that he would identify on
8:04
Speaker 1: his dog catching route. Then you've got Rex Hureman, who
8:08
Speaker 1: is an architect and a successful architect at that by day,
8:12
Speaker 1: even bringing his daughter into the practice, and one of
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Speaker 1: the freakiest, most evil serial killers in history. Then of
8:21
Speaker 1: course there's Ted Bundy, who is a quasi brilliant law
8:25
Speaker 1: student but also a freakazoid killer where at the end
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Speaker 1: he's just bashing people in the head with a log.
8:36
Speaker 1: There's no forethought, there's just mad killing. But he's not insane.
8:43
Speaker 1: So when you say vertical split, the duality of the
8:47
Speaker 1: psychees of these killers is something I'm trying to figure
8:50
Speaker 1: out with Coburger. Vertical split. I've never heard that before. Bethany.
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Speaker 3: Well, let's think of a vertical split as on one
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Speaker 3: side is all the aspirational goodness their families, whom they
9:01
Speaker 3: rely upon. In the case of Brian Coburger, you know,
9:04
Speaker 3: teaching in a class, learning about law, you know, trying
9:08
Speaker 3: to flirt with women. But he was a family guy.
9:11
Speaker 3: He lived with his family for a long long time.
9:14
Speaker 3: And then on the other side of the split all
9:16
Speaker 3: the evil side. I mean, the church secretary that looked
9:19
Speaker 3: like little bo peep from the waist up and a
9:21
Speaker 3: hooker from the waist down was having affairs with other
9:24
Speaker 3: pastors through the church computer. But she was the church
9:27
Speaker 3: greeter on Sunday morning. So it's the lack of integration
9:31
Speaker 3: I think in which these kinds of actions foment. So
9:35
Speaker 3: the BTK killer, you know, he would measure people's.
9:39
Speaker 1: Grasp joining me. Howard Bloom, author of the definitive work
9:44
Speaker 1: on as of Now on the Idaho Sleighs when the
9:48
Speaker 1: Night comes falling a requiem for the Ido Student murders,
9:52
Speaker 1: and you can find him at Howard bloommest blum dot com. Howard,
9:57
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Howard the nay to
10:00
Speaker 1: keep photographic evidence.
10:01
Speaker 2: What is that when someone commits a crime like this,
10:06
Speaker 2: it is the high point of their moment. They are
10:10
Speaker 2: building up to it over a period of time and
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Speaker 2: then they finally find the will. They finally can make
10:16
Speaker 2: that jump into becoming the monster that they're seeing in
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Speaker 2: their mind. And they want to commemorate this moment. They
10:25
Speaker 2: want this moment to live on. That's why they do it.
10:28
Speaker 2: They want to have this experience. It's like looking at
10:32
Speaker 2: a scrap book. We might keep a scrap book of
10:35
Speaker 2: high events in our lives. Weddings, high school graduations, college graduations.
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Speaker 2: They are their killings.
10:42
Speaker 1: Jo Scott Morgan joining me, Professor FORENSCTS Jaiswell State University,
10:46
Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He's the
10:49
Speaker 1: star of a hit podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.
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Speaker 1: Jo Scott, thank you for being with us. I want
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Speaker 1: to the dichotomy of the selfies that Coburger has taken
11:07
Speaker 1: juxapposed against compared to the crime scene, and I want
11:12
Speaker 1: you to hear this just got before you elaborate on
11:15
Speaker 1: the crime scene. Disturbing evidence tonight that Xana did not
11:22
Speaker 1: die in her sleep, she was actually chased down downstairs
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Speaker 1: and murdered. Listen.
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Speaker 5: New information is Madison may have been the killer's intended target,
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Speaker 5: and the killer was surprised to find Mogan was not alone.
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Speaker 5: Kaylee Gonzolves had recently moved out and only returned for
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Speaker 5: a visit with Mogen. The killer arrives just after four
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Speaker 5: am and goes directly to Madison's room first, where a
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Speaker 5: tanned leather sheath for a k bar knife is found
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Speaker 5: near Mogan's body on the bed. Coburger's DNA was found
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Speaker 5: on the button snap of the knife sheath.
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Speaker 6: One floor below Madison's room, Xena has just received her
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Speaker 6: door dash order and is scrolling through Instagram when she
12:01
Speaker 6: hears a struggle in the room above. Running up to
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Speaker 6: the next floor, the killer chases Xana back down to
12:06
Speaker 6: her bedroom, leaving the knife sheath behind. Catching up to Kernodle,
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Speaker 6: the killer stabs her to death while her boyfriend Ethan
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Speaker 6: remains asleep. Shocking new evidence. Before he is killed, the
12:18
Speaker 6: murderer carves Chapin's lower leg with a blade. Chapin is
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Speaker 6: the last murder victim killed with one strike of the
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Speaker 6: knife hitting an artery.
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Speaker 1: Now, according to sources, Ethan's leg was not carved, it
12:30
Speaker 1: was stabbed. I don't think we're going to know that
12:33
Speaker 1: until we actually hear the autopsy report. But straight out
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Speaker 1: to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, Author,
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Speaker 1: podcast Star. I could go on, just Scott, this changes things.
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Speaker 1: This is a different dynamic than what we had first
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Speaker 1: been told. The fact that Xana was chased down that
12:56
Speaker 1: changes the entire complexion.
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Speaker 2: For me.
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Speaker 1: It was horrible to start with, but imagining Xana running
13:04
Speaker 1: for her life as another layer of terror, how would
13:09
Speaker 1: they even know that?
13:10
Speaker 7: Well, I think we got to go back who told
13:13
Speaker 7: us in the beginning? You know that all and I
13:17
Speaker 7: mean all of the victims were apparently asleep. Do you recall, Nancy,
13:21
Speaker 7: it was either the first or the second day. Afterward
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Speaker 7: we had this odd event that occurred which never happens,
13:27
Speaker 7: and that is the coroner did an interview. Do you
13:29
Speaker 7: recall that she gives an interview?
13:32
Speaker 1: Yes, I remember, And that is why a cardinal rule
13:37
Speaker 1: is never speak to the press if you are part
13:41
Speaker 1: of a case. It doesn't matter what they say about
13:44
Speaker 1: you or anything else, because one off hand statement they
13:49
Speaker 1: were killed in their sleep has now taken a snowball
13:52
Speaker 1: that that's what happened, and it may be entirely untrue.
13:56
Speaker 7: Yeah, and now retrospectively, when you throw this new data
13:59
Speaker 7: in there, it's almost you know, it can be implied
14:01
Speaker 7: that it's deceptive or whatever. That's why, if you're inside
14:04
Speaker 7: of the investigative bubble that I refer to, you keep
14:08
Speaker 7: your mouth shut, particularly for the corner. They have no
14:11
Speaker 7: business saying anything about this. But the dynamic of Xanna
14:14
Speaker 7: being found away from the bed is quite interesting, and
14:19
Speaker 7: that that gives you an awareness, does it? Because we've
14:21
Speaker 7: heard about the food delivery and this sort of thing.
14:24
Speaker 7: We've heard about voices and a lot of the stuff.
14:27
Speaker 7: I think going back, Xana is tied to relative to
14:31
Speaker 7: her activity, you know, we can you know, you get
14:34
Speaker 7: this impression about all of this all the way along,
14:37
Speaker 7: and the dynamic has completely changed. You know, before we're thinking, yeah,
14:40
Speaker 7: you know Ethan and Xanna were cuddled in the bed,
14:43
Speaker 7: you know, and that they're asleep. Oh that's that ain't
14:46
Speaker 7: what happened here, Nancy.
14:48
Speaker 1: Well, how are they going to prove it.
14:49
Speaker 7: I don't know that that they necessarily can. I think
14:52
Speaker 7: one of the fascinating things for this, in particular is
14:57
Speaker 7: if she had an awareness that there was somebody up
14:59
Speaker 7: there and she snuck up the stairs just to kind
15:03
Speaker 7: of investigate on her own.
15:06
Speaker 1: Was she cut in.
15:07
Speaker 7: Any way up there and then chased down afterwards, and
15:11
Speaker 7: maybe there's some kind of deposition of her blood on
15:14
Speaker 7: the carpet leading back to her bedroom, or is it
15:17
Speaker 7: all concentrated in the room. Because the one thing we
15:21
Speaker 7: do know about.
15:21
Speaker 1: It, I want to throw something at him. Yeah, sure, Okay,
15:24
Speaker 1: listen to this. I think the blood spatter is going
15:28
Speaker 1: to be critical here because I'm hypothesizing if she were
15:34
Speaker 1: stabbed at all on those stairs, even if she ran
15:38
Speaker 1: back up, We're going to get Xana's blood on the stairs,
15:42
Speaker 1: even if her body is found in the bedroom, if
15:45
Speaker 1: she ran down and ran back. I don't know yet
15:47
Speaker 1: because I haven't seen the blood evidence. But all they
15:50
Speaker 1: need is a drop a drop, not a transfer, not
15:56
Speaker 1: a smear which could come from the killer, but a
15:59
Speaker 1: drop from her or spatter from her which showed the
16:03
Speaker 1: event happened right there, so it wouldn't matter where her
16:07
Speaker 1: body was found that shows that a stabbing happened on
16:11
Speaker 1: the stairs, that she left her room. And there's one
16:13
Speaker 1: other thing, but put this into your equation. Joining me
16:17
Speaker 1: is crime Stories investigative reporter Dave mac Dave, isn't it
16:22
Speaker 1: true that one of the survivors, the one that ran
16:25
Speaker 1: from one room to the next that night they were
16:27
Speaker 1: frantically texting back and forth. There's a guy in here,
16:30
Speaker 1: he's wearing a black mask on his face. Didn't one
16:34
Speaker 1: of them run past Xana and see her in the
16:39
Speaker 1: floor and think she was passed out drunk Because all
16:42
Speaker 1: the facts hadn't assimilated, she didn't know what had happened,
16:47
Speaker 1: which goes to this theory refreshment I recollection, Dave.
16:51
Speaker 6: Mac, That's exactly what happened, and now you've got to
16:54
Speaker 6: put it in the context of the moment at you know,
16:56
Speaker 6: you're talking four o'clock in the morning at a house
16:58
Speaker 6: that is very active, it's heading towards the end of
17:02
Speaker 6: the night early morning, and they hear something, and so
17:05
Speaker 6: one of the roommates does go and look see what's
17:07
Speaker 6: going on, but not putting anything. You're not thinking something
17:10
Speaker 6: like this is going to happen. Your thinking is just
17:12
Speaker 6: a regular night hearing weird sounds. But she sees Xana
17:16
Speaker 6: and it appears to her that Xanna is just asleep.
17:21
Speaker 6: That's because that's what she would normally expect to find
17:24
Speaker 6: at that time of the day or early morning. So
17:27
Speaker 6: nothing really clicked until later. And that's why there was
17:30
Speaker 6: all the texting back and forth with the other roommate
17:32
Speaker 6: and the calls to the phones, just if something's wrong,
17:35
Speaker 6: something's different than normal.
17:37
Speaker 1: And here's another thing, aside from the possibility that Xanna
17:42
Speaker 1: was actually chased down and killed that night, the theory
17:47
Speaker 1: that Maddie Madison Mogan may have been the intended target.
17:53
Speaker 1: And now we are now getting which I'm about to
17:55
Speaker 1: get to him leading up to it, information as to
17:59
Speaker 1: how we've heard all along. The prosecutors came out in
18:02
Speaker 1: open court and said we have no evidence that the
18:05
Speaker 1: victims were stalked on social media. Because remember there was
18:10
Speaker 1: a lot of talk that Kyburger had stalked the victims
18:16
Speaker 1: in that vein. It was believed for a long period
18:18
Speaker 1: of time that killing Gold's Solvice was the intended victim.
18:23
Speaker 1: It wasn't that the accepted theory at the get go.
18:28
Speaker 1: Dave Mack that somehow Kelly was the intended victim and
18:33
Speaker 1: the others were tangential. Now we're hearing that new information
18:38
Speaker 1: Matty Mogan may have been the killer's intended target.
18:42
Speaker 6: Well, you know the first talking about targeting and who
18:45
Speaker 6: was the first one that actually came from the Genthalvest family.
18:48
Speaker 6: You remember in the very early parts of the investigation,
18:51
Speaker 6: they were very public talking about the investigation of wanting information,
18:56
Speaker 6: and they were given certain information that led them to
18:59
Speaker 6: believe and led them to say that Kayley was the target.
19:04
Speaker 6: In their minds, that's what they saw. Now we're hearing
19:08
Speaker 6: that that may not be the case. Again, Now we
19:10
Speaker 6: go back to the world of Joseph Scott Morgan, because
19:13
Speaker 6: I don't know how you can determine when you've got
19:15
Speaker 6: two young women in the same location, both being killed
19:20
Speaker 6: with a knife, how you determine who was killed first?
19:23
Speaker 1: Guys, Now we're learning more freaky coburger photos just emerging
19:33
Speaker 1: could reveal how he allegedly targeted four beautiful Idaho University
19:41
Speaker 1: students for murder.
19:45
Speaker 5: Emergency.
19:50
Speaker 2: You don't know what.
19:55
Speaker 1: She's They saw some men in their house a say.
20:04
Speaker 2: Come have to.
20:12
Speaker 1: She's not waking up. What are hydrons?
20:15
Speaker 5: Of the Emergency one one two, two Teams, Drugs.
20:25
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. On one of the many
20:35
Speaker 1: many days I spent trumping around Moscow and Pullman, I
20:40
Speaker 1: met Coburger's neighbor, one of his neighbors who described Coburger's father,
20:46
Speaker 1: upon moving Coburger in for the start of school, coming
20:50
Speaker 1: to him and saying words to the effect, my son
20:53
Speaker 1: has a hard time making friends. Surprise, surprise, would you
20:58
Speaker 1: be his friend? I believe the pool party that is
21:02
Speaker 1: now under the microscope was an invite from that neighbor.
21:08
Speaker 1: Little did I know at the time that that pool
21:11
Speaker 1: party could be the nexus between Coburger and the murder victims.
21:17
Speaker 8: Listen to me, he seemed a little awkward, kind of
21:20
Speaker 8: like you might expect for a PhD student who didn't
21:23
Speaker 8: know anyone at the party and was maybe trying his
21:25
Speaker 8: best to kind of get out there and be social
21:28
Speaker 8: and make friends.
21:29
Speaker 9: Shortly after moving to Pullman, Coberger is invited to a
21:31
Speaker 9: pool party in Moscow July ninth. Coburger attends the pool
21:34
Speaker 9: party during the day, and his cell phone data analyzed
21:37
Speaker 9: by an FBI cell phone expert indicates Coburger came back
21:41
Speaker 9: to Moscow the night of July ninth, and in the days, weeks,
21:44
Speaker 9: and months that followed, Coburger's phone pinged nearly a dozen
21:48
Speaker 9: times to a tower that provides coverage within one hundred
21:51
Speaker 9: feet of the murder house. Cell Phone records indicate Coberger
21:55
Speaker 9: was within one hundred meters of eleven twenty two King
21:58
Speaker 9: Road on at least twenty five three occasions. All trips
22:02
Speaker 9: were after dark, and the last recorded visit just six
22:06
Speaker 9: days before the murders.
22:07
Speaker 1: The first lady you heard speaking from the pool Party
22:11
Speaker 1: episode was from our friends at NBC's Dateline. That Dateline
22:16
Speaker 1: episode has exploded in the courtroom with the judge demanding
22:21
Speaker 1: an investigation to find out how that and other information
22:25
Speaker 1: was leaked to Dateline. And I got to tell you
22:28
Speaker 1: it certainly touched a nerve, which makes me think that
22:32
Speaker 1: what's in Dateline could very well be true. Now, can
22:35
Speaker 1: we get back to the nexus between the pool party
22:38
Speaker 1: and the murder victims? Okay, listen to this.
22:42
Speaker 5: Another leak is Coburger's cell phone browsing history in possession
22:46
Speaker 5: of law enforcement shows dozens of pictures of female students
22:49
Speaker 5: at Washington State and the University of Idaho. Many in
22:53
Speaker 5: bathing suits, some of them friends or followers of three
22:56
Speaker 5: murdered students, Madison, Kaylee, and Xana.
22:59
Speaker 1: Okay, now we must deduce, we must extrapolate based on
23:05
Speaker 1: what we know. Joining me as a renowned homes sign investigator,
23:09
Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, director Cold Case Foundation, and the star of
23:13
Speaker 1: YouTube channel the interview room where I found him. Okay, Chris,
23:17
Speaker 1: go with me on this and jump in. So he
23:19
Speaker 1: gets invited to the pool party, I think the same
23:22
Speaker 1: pool party the neighbor invited him to so he could
23:24
Speaker 1: make friends. All right, He's at the pool party that night,
23:29
Speaker 1: July nine, begins his trips to where the murders occurred,
23:37
Speaker 1: the King Road murder scene. That night, his phone is
23:41
Speaker 1: pinged and there are over twenty subsequent visits to the
23:47
Speaker 1: murder scene leading up to the murder significance. They start
23:51
Speaker 1: the night of the pool party, right, he didn't know them.
23:56
Speaker 1: Then we find photos in his cell phone of women
24:01
Speaker 1: girls students in swimsuits. Were those girls at the pool party?
24:08
Speaker 1: Because now we learned last step that on social the
24:12
Speaker 1: girls in the swimsuits were social media friends online with
24:17
Speaker 1: the victims. So all along we're like, how did he
24:21
Speaker 1: find these victims. How did he target them? Does it
24:24
Speaker 1: all go back to the innocent pool party. He's at
24:27
Speaker 1: the pool party, he sees women, he takes pictures of
24:30
Speaker 1: the women in their swimsuits, he looks them up online,
24:34
Speaker 1: he finds their online friends and targets them. That's just
24:41
Speaker 1: a coincidence. There is no coincidence in criminal law. McDonough right.
24:45
Speaker 10: No, it's like the hunter who is trying to figure
24:50
Speaker 10: out where the deer hang out. He's a statistic sexual predator,
24:56
Speaker 10: and it starts with finding your victimology. It starts with
25:00
Speaker 10: finding girls if that's going to be his victimology, and
25:04
Speaker 10: then it's going to talk in his head. And I'm
25:07
Speaker 10: talking about fantasy that he's going to tie it to
25:10
Speaker 10: his model. And who's his model? Well, right now the
25:14
Speaker 10: evidence is showing that it could be Ted Bundy. And
25:17
Speaker 10: if that's the case, who was Ted Bundy stalking? He
25:21
Speaker 10: was stalking sorority girls. And now the very first murder.
25:26
Speaker 10: If Brian Kolberger's your guy, he picks a house with
25:30
Speaker 10: five girls and is the pool party connected, Well, we
25:36
Speaker 10: don't know yet, but we know he was organized. And
25:40
Speaker 10: we go back to the sheath for a moment. If
25:42
Speaker 10: Xanna is the gal that walked up and disturbed him.
25:46
Speaker 10: That's probably the time he dropped the sheet and that's
25:49
Speaker 10: when it went disorganized and he probably, if in fact,
25:53
Speaker 10: he chased her, that was the time, and that probably
25:56
Speaker 10: explains how the sheath got there in the first place.
26:00
Speaker 1: So is it past possibility. No, it's a probability.
26:06
Speaker 10: And it's also a probability that when he was taking
26:10
Speaker 10: that secondary selfie that we're going to find a lot
26:14
Speaker 10: of information on that digital footprint of his phone. And
26:18
Speaker 10: it won't surprise me. The type of porn that we
26:21
Speaker 10: find on that phone is going to be very sadistic.
26:25
Speaker 10: I guarantee you.
26:26
Speaker 1: Oh, you're leading me to my next topic. The sadistic
26:29
Speaker 1: type of porn found on his cell phone, like I'm
26:36
Speaker 1: having sex with women while they're asleep, passed out, drugged. Well, okay,
26:41
Speaker 1: not having sex, that's right, But hold on before I
26:44
Speaker 1: put the cart before the horse. To Joshua Ritter joining
26:47
Speaker 1: me a veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney, former prosecutor, and
26:51
Speaker 1: the host of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube, and you can
26:54
Speaker 1: find him at Josh Ritter e Sqesquire dot com. Josh
27:01
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Josh, take off your
27:04
Speaker 1: defense hat. I'm taking off my prosecution hat. I'm trying
27:07
Speaker 1: to understand what's happening. No wonder the judge blew a gasket.
27:11
Speaker 1: And I don't blame the judge. That was a serious
27:14
Speaker 1: leak to Dateline. It's not Dateline's fault. They're doing what
27:19
Speaker 1: they do, right. Somebody leaked. Yeah, I mean we're talking
27:25
Speaker 1: about cell phone porn, about raping women in their sleep
27:29
Speaker 1: and when they're drugged. Found on his phone and these
27:32
Speaker 1: women were attacked he thought, and they were going to
27:36
Speaker 1: be asleep, right, But the nexus here, there is no
27:41
Speaker 1: coincidence in criminal law, not that I've ever seen. I've
27:43
Speaker 1: seen coincidences in life, but in crime. So he's at
27:47
Speaker 1: a pool party that daddy arranged for him. Basically, he
27:50
Speaker 1: goes to the pool party. He sees women in swimsuits.
27:54
Speaker 1: Photos are taken of sorority girls, students in swimsuits online,
27:59
Speaker 1: they're friends. Are these victims? The night of the party,
28:05
Speaker 1: he's caught on his hell near the King wrote address,
28:10
Speaker 1: and that starts the twenty three times he starts visiting there.
28:14
Speaker 1: That's not a coincidence.
28:16
Speaker 11: Yes, no, and no, And what you're outlining too and
28:20
Speaker 11: pointing out I think he's going to be something that
28:23
Speaker 11: the prosecution is going to need to make abundantly clear
28:26
Speaker 11: to the Jersey because one big question I think everyone
28:28
Speaker 11: has is what was the connection between this man? If
28:31
Speaker 11: this is the suspect, if this is the person the
28:33
Speaker 11: police believe is responsible for these grizzly murders, what's his
28:37
Speaker 11: connection to these victims? Are you telling us that we're
28:40
Speaker 11: to believe that this is a completely random crime and
28:43
Speaker 11: we were not even talking about students that go to
28:46
Speaker 11: the same college, that you could say that, hey, he
28:49
Speaker 11: watched these.
28:51
Speaker 1: And this was a big hole in the state's case
28:53
Speaker 1: for many people. Of course, motive is not required for
28:57
Speaker 1: the state to show that, but the jury wants it.
29:00
Speaker 1: This could be feeling the whole How did he pick
29:03
Speaker 1: these people? It's just what you're saying, Josh.
29:06
Speaker 11: No, absolutely, because they're going to have to give the
29:08
Speaker 11: jurors something. I don't think you can walk into this
29:10
Speaker 11: trial with the idea that, hey, random people didn't live
29:14
Speaker 11: near him, didn't go to class with him, he didn't
29:17
Speaker 11: see them on a daily basis. We have no connection
29:19
Speaker 11: between the suspect and these victims. But yeah, we want
29:23
Speaker 11: you to believe that he's the one that committed the
29:24
Speaker 11: crime here. Listen. I know there's other evidence at play,
29:27
Speaker 11: and exactly what you said motive does not need to
29:30
Speaker 11: be proved, but you got to somehow make a connection here,
29:34
Speaker 11: because the randomness of this is the thing that's going
29:38
Speaker 11: to be most troubling to people. The biggest question mark
29:41
Speaker 11: in people's heads is why in the world would he
29:44
Speaker 11: picked these three girls and one gentleman in a house
29:46
Speaker 11: that he doesn't live near. If he doesn't have a
29:50
Speaker 11: connection to them, doesn't go to class with them, doesn't
29:52
Speaker 11: work with them, it just starts to create questions, and
29:55
Speaker 11: as you know, questions can lead to doubt and then
29:58
Speaker 11: you start to have problems.
30:00
Speaker 1: I know Coburger was rehashing what happened at that pool party,
30:04
Speaker 1: because thanks for our friends over at NBC Dateline, we
30:07
Speaker 1: actually hear from a woman that he contacted after the
30:12
Speaker 1: pool party in a very awkward text exchange. Listen.
30:17
Speaker 6: One of Coberger's WSU classmates met Coberger at a pool
30:20
Speaker 6: party and had a few awkward exchanges with him. Holly
30:23
Speaker 6: tells Coberger about a hiking group and the two exchange
30:26
Speaker 6: numbers so Coburger can get involved. Holly receives one text
30:29
Speaker 6: from Coberger, once again asking about the hiking group. Holly
30:32
Speaker 6: now grateful she never responded.
30:35
Speaker 8: It was almost overly formal. I really enjoy that activity,
30:40
Speaker 8: so you know, can you follow up with me about
30:43
Speaker 8: about that?
30:43
Speaker 1: From our friends Addie Day Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
30:55
Speaker 6: Brian Cooberger's Internet search history allegedly includes Ted Bundy as
30:59
Speaker 6: well as non consensual sex pornography. In the weeks before
31:03
Speaker 6: the murders, Coburger searched porn using keywords forced, passed out, drugged,
31:09
Speaker 6: and sleeping. Coberger's Bundy search might have related to his
31:12
Speaker 6: job as a teacher's assistant, or maybe he was looking
31:15
Speaker 6: for his mother's op ed about Bundy. Coberger's phone history reveals,
31:19
Speaker 6: days before his arrest, he searches for Britney Spears song criminal.
31:23
Speaker 1: Okay, that doesn't really make any sense. So he's looking
31:27
Speaker 1: up porn, doctor Bethany, non consensual sex, right, pornography, He's
31:36
Speaker 1: looking up rape porn. Okay, that's what that's called. He's
31:39
Speaker 1: looking up Ted Bundy. I mean, I've looked Ted Bundy
31:43
Speaker 1: up maybe what a million times, so, and he's a criminologist,
31:47
Speaker 1: so I'm okay with Ted Bundy search, but non consensual
31:51
Speaker 1: rape porn looking up porn where the woman where the
31:56
Speaker 1: rape is quote forced, where the woman is passed out, drugs,
31:59
Speaker 1: drugged or sleeping. No, help me out, Bethany. And then
32:05
Speaker 1: remember the factors and Ethan are attacked in their sleep.
32:10
Speaker 3: What yes, remember the max factor air He had that
32:14
Speaker 3: same deviant arousal pattern. He took all these videos of
32:17
Speaker 3: himself with women passed out in his bed and he
32:21
Speaker 3: was making these creepy movements over them. So, Nancy, when
32:24
Speaker 3: somebody comes into my office who's had a brush with
32:27
Speaker 3: the law, that there's an intersection between that and sex
32:30
Speaker 3: and assault or they have a deviant arousal pattern, I
32:34
Speaker 3: always ask them what type of pornography do you look at?
32:38
Speaker 3: And then who are you in the scenario or the
32:41
Speaker 3: vignette you're watching? Are you the passive person? Are you
32:44
Speaker 3: the active person? Are you the person who's watching? And
32:48
Speaker 3: it gives me a great deal of insight into the
32:51
Speaker 3: deviant arousal pattern. In this case, he needs his victims
32:55
Speaker 3: unaware of what he's doing. He wants to rape them
33:00
Speaker 3: when they don't know he's there, and I'm getting he
33:04
Speaker 3: wants to rape them. So is this the kind of
33:07
Speaker 3: person who could really graduate in his offending pattern to
33:11
Speaker 3: even more serious crimes like necrophilia, you know, abuse of
33:15
Speaker 3: a corps, something where the sex assault victim does not
33:21
Speaker 3: know that he's committing the crime, so he has complete
33:25
Speaker 3: power and control over them.
33:27
Speaker 1: Okay, you know, uh, Ridder, you better put your defense
33:32
Speaker 1: hat back on. There's really not coming back from a
33:35
Speaker 1: guy suspected of murdering four people, three girls that live
33:40
Speaker 1: in the home in their sleep while hours before he
33:46
Speaker 1: is looking up rape porn where the victims are passed out,
33:52
Speaker 1: drugged and or sleeping. Good luck with that, Ridder.
33:56
Speaker 11: Well, I mean what I will say is the porn,
34:01
Speaker 11: though disturbing, What does that have to do with the
34:05
Speaker 11: crime scene other other than you're saying that the targets
34:07
Speaker 11: of the crime are females. There is there.
34:10
Speaker 1: Allegations of sexual assault past.
34:15
Speaker 11: That he made them unconscious. I mean the fact that
34:20
Speaker 11: a crime scene happens to have four females or three
34:25
Speaker 11: females part of me again and one male that are
34:28
Speaker 11: believed to be sleeping and maybe we're finding out not now,
34:31
Speaker 11: is somehow we're going to we're going to tether in
34:34
Speaker 11: nexus between that and the idea that he was looking
34:36
Speaker 11: up disturbing porn. I just don't listen. The disturbing porn
34:40
Speaker 11: bothers me. The crime scene bothers me. I just don't
34:42
Speaker 11: see the connection between the two. If the prosecution is
34:45
Speaker 11: going to try to, you know, thread that needle, I
34:47
Speaker 11: think they're going to have a tough time convincing jurors
34:49
Speaker 11: of the same thing.
34:51
Speaker 1: Bethony Marshall helped me out because Ritter is dancing all
34:55
Speaker 1: around the fact that this guy was obviously sexually frustrated.
35:00
Speaker 1: He keeps trying to connect with women he can't. He
35:04
Speaker 1: had a horrible record back home. Remember he got kicked
35:07
Speaker 1: out of a bar for asking women where they lived
35:11
Speaker 1: and telling one woman one woman had a date with
35:15
Speaker 1: him and he told her she had great breeders' hips.
35:18
Speaker 1: I mean, he obviously has a problem connecting with women,
35:23
Speaker 1: and you know that must have frustrated him. No end
35:26
Speaker 1: taking pictures of girls in their swimsuits, free key. But
35:31
Speaker 1: the connection between looking up just before the murders rape
35:37
Speaker 1: porn where the women are drug passed out or asleep
35:42
Speaker 1: and quote forced his search, not my words, his and
35:48
Speaker 1: these girls being targeted what he thought was going to
35:52
Speaker 1: be in their sleep, in their sleep. Girls that he
35:56
Speaker 1: had connected to I believe online. Whether he had any
36:00
Speaker 1: conversation with them online, I don't know, but friends of
36:05
Speaker 1: girls at the pool party. He's a criminologist. He knows
36:08
Speaker 1: better than to attack anyone he just met at a
36:11
Speaker 1: pool party. It would be too obvious. Get it, There
36:15
Speaker 1: is there's a connection here.
36:17
Speaker 3: I get it. One possible victim led to another, maybe
36:20
Speaker 3: like somebody who's trolling the streets for a certain type
36:24
Speaker 3: and they see a sex worker who's out there, and
36:26
Speaker 3: so they're not going to target that victim. They're going
36:29
Speaker 3: to be friend that victim and learn who that's victim,
36:32
Speaker 3: and learn who that victim's friends are. Right, they're going
36:35
Speaker 3: to go down the rabbit hole of people who are
36:37
Speaker 3: more and more obscure and unidentifiable, bit nanty. When offenders offend,
36:44
Speaker 3: they look at the type of porn that's going to
36:47
Speaker 3: prime them for the offense. Pedophiles will look at pictures
36:51
Speaker 3: of children on the line, Rapists will look at assault.
36:56
Speaker 3: Men who want to commit murder homicide will look at
36:59
Speaker 3: maybe college students or maybe Ted Bundy. So looking at
37:03
Speaker 3: the pornography that the offender is using to arouse themselves
37:08
Speaker 3: ahead of time. That is so vital and so important.
37:12
Speaker 3: Hopefully a forensic psychologists will be on the stand to
37:15
Speaker 3: testify to this.
37:16
Speaker 1: And we can't ignore that he's looking up Ted Bundy
37:20
Speaker 1: and girls being attacked in their sleep and Ted Bundy's
37:23
Speaker 1: my most infamous crime is attacking the sleeping sorority girls
37:28
Speaker 1: at the ki Omega House in their sleep. Well speaking
37:35
Speaker 1: a foreign language, here is anybody getting this? He's looking
37:38
Speaker 1: up Bundy. He's looking up porn, rape porn, Where the
37:42
Speaker 1: girls are, the victims are asleep, drug passed out, And
37:46
Speaker 1: that's what Bundy did. And we can't ignore Joe Scott
37:50
Speaker 1: Morgan that he's looking up Ted Bundy and girls being
37:55
Speaker 1: attacked in their sleep, and Ted Bundy's my most infamous
37:59
Speaker 1: crime attacking the sleeping sorority girls at the kai Omega
38:04
Speaker 1: House in their sleep. Well, I speaking a foreign language,
38:10
Speaker 1: here is anybody getting this? He's looking up Bundy, He's
38:14
Speaker 1: looking up porn, rape porn, Where the girls are, the
38:17
Speaker 1: victims are asleep, drug passed out, And that's what Bundy did.
38:22
Speaker 7: Yeah, he did. However, going back to the photo Nancy,
38:26
Speaker 7: the hoodie photo that we mentioned off the top. One
38:29
Speaker 7: of the names that came to mind with me was
38:32
Speaker 7: Ted Kazinsky with Unibomber. You know, Zinsky. Kazinsky had a
38:38
Speaker 7: PhD in mathematics as well as a master's degree, and
38:43
Speaker 7: was very bright, socially awkward those sorts of things, and
38:46
Speaker 7: probably and I think if you read through his you know,
38:49
Speaker 7: his statements that he made he saw himself as above
38:52
Speaker 7: everybody else, that everybody else were these kind of groundlings
38:55
Speaker 7: that were out there that were not worthy of his time.
38:58
Speaker 7: It seems to me that there's kind of a pattern
39:01
Speaker 7: with this and the destructive nature of what union Bobber did.
39:04
Speaker 7: You know, kind of it came out of the blue.
39:08
Speaker 7: You think about this attack at night where people are asleep.
39:10
Speaker 7: This is out of the blue. This guy thinks he's
39:12
Speaker 7: going to escape and not be caught. It's the height
39:15
Speaker 7: of arrogance. So you know, I think that yeah, Bundy, Yeah,
39:20
Speaker 7: he was a law student, a failed law student. I
39:22
Speaker 7: don't think that Coburger intellectually would see himself at that level.
39:27
Speaker 7: Would he would raise it the bar higher? Probably more
39:30
Speaker 7: like the Unibomber to Howard Bloom.
39:34
Speaker 1: The coincidences are startling that he is searching Bundy, and
39:40
Speaker 1: then he starts searching rape porn where the victims are
39:45
Speaker 1: passed out, asleep or drugged. And then these girls, much
39:51
Speaker 1: like the Ted Bundy victims, are sorority girls living in
39:54
Speaker 1: a house. He believes they are all going to be
39:57
Speaker 1: asleep when he enters.
39:59
Speaker 2: Is it just a con or is it something that
40:01
Speaker 2: a jewelry will decide to send a man to the
40:05
Speaker 2: firing squad? Now going even to the pool party pictures.
40:09
Speaker 2: When I was interviewing people at the who attended the
40:12
Speaker 2: pool party, and I was trying to get a sense
40:14
Speaker 2: of who was there, one of the first things they
40:16
Speaker 2: did was show me pictures of women in bathing suits
40:19
Speaker 2: that they had on their phone, and I said, these
40:21
Speaker 2: are the women who were there.
40:22
Speaker 11: You should check them out.
40:23
Speaker 2: They too had pictures of women at the pool party
40:26
Speaker 2: on their phone.
40:27
Speaker 1: Can I speak to bloom Bloom? Did they also then
40:32
Speaker 1: go that night to friends of the women at the
40:36
Speaker 1: pool party, I start stalking their home in the dark
40:39
Speaker 1: of night. Did they also look up rape porn where
40:43
Speaker 1: the victims were in bed to sleep? You know, before the.
40:46
Speaker 2: Actually everything you're saying, you're building a case against them,
40:49
Speaker 2: it might turn out to be true.
40:51
Speaker 4: But I'm also saying you questions because you're situation is
40:56
Speaker 4: using to business and everybody at the pool party did
40:58
Speaker 4: the same thing.
40:59
Speaker 1: Well they did it.
41:02
Speaker 2: I'm suggesting that a good defense attorney will raise all
41:07
Speaker 2: these questions to a jury, and a jury will then
41:09
Speaker 2: have to decide based on these questions, is this enough
41:13
Speaker 2: to send a man in front of the firing squad?
41:15
Speaker 1: No, that is not the law. The law is the
41:19
Speaker 1: jury will determine if it's enough to convict him. This
41:23
Speaker 1: will be a bifer kated trial, and once there is
41:25
Speaker 1: a conviction, then they will decide the sentence will be.
41:33
Speaker 1: Not to consider the death penalty, they have to consider
41:36
Speaker 1: it guilt or innocence first. And I hardly think these
41:40
Speaker 1: photos are going to send them to the firing squad.
41:43
Speaker 1: It's going to be as DNA man on the nine
41:46
Speaker 1: under the victim's body.
41:48
Speaker 2: That's the interesting question, is the DNA and what the
41:51
Speaker 2: defense is going to say, how did the DNA get there?
41:54
Speaker 2: And that's what they're going to try to argue. But
41:57
Speaker 2: all these other issues of the photos I think are
42:00
Speaker 2: immaterial and irrelevant to the trial. And that's why I
42:04
Speaker 2: think the charges.
42:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell that to the victims' families, and now we
42:10
Speaker 1: remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Andrew Peery, el Paso
42:15
Speaker 1: County Sheriff's Colorado, shot and killed in the line of duty.
42:21
Speaker 1: A US Army vet. He is behind grieving wife Megan,
42:25
Speaker 1: and two beautiful children sent us to life without their father.
42:32
Speaker 1: American hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew Peery. Nancy Gray signing off
42:38
Speaker 1: goodbye friend.