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Report: Major Developments In Michigan Sign-Stealing Scandal · Buckeyes TomOrrow Morning

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Welcome to Buckeyes tomorrow morning for Tuesday, October twenty fourth, I'm your host,
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tom Or. The Wisconsin game is in four days, the game against
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Michigan in thirty two days. We were talking about Michigan to day, but
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we are not talking about the game. We were talking about all the off
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field stuff going on around that Michigan program right now, with the investigation by
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the NCAA into illegal scouting, maybe breaking some rules, bending some rules about
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in person scouting, electronic scouting, all that kind of stuff. We talked
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about this with Tony Gurderman last week late last week on I think Friday Afternoon,
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had a whole show about that, and then, boy, there has
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been some news that has broken since then. We thought, oh boy,
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this is quite an eventful story, quite a day of news. And then
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as soon as we hit stopped on that the person at the center of the
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investigation, Connor Stallions, the Michigan staffer, he was suspended Michigan ad Ward
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manual on Friday afternoon he said, quote, Michigan Athletics suspended Connor Stallions today
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with pay pending the conclusion of the NCAA investing. And then on Monday,
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new reporting for Pete Fammel of ESPN, and oh boy, there are some
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details. We're learning a lot more about how this allegedly all went down,
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and it seems like there are some other schools in the Big Ten who may
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have receipts quite literally in some cases. Tony Gerdaman joins me and Tony,
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if you're going to do some NCAA crimes allegedly, it feels like buying tickets
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with your own credit card from the school's website is probably not the savviest way
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to go about doing that if you're trying to cover something up. Sure,
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but what's to cover up here, Tom, it's just buying tickets for opposing
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opponent future opponents and sitting there and videotaping their calls and signals and things like
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that. I'm sure it's totally fine, but yeah, this is using your
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own name is something that I think maybe we gave them too much credit when
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we were initially talking about this, like, how clearly you're not going to
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use your own name, So what kind of deception do you use? Oh
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no, no, yeah, you do use your own name, and you're
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very easy to track and the people in your seats are very easy to spot
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as they're holding up their cell phones shooting the calls throughout the entire game.
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Stallions is a Naval Academy graduate and retired as a captain in the United States
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Marine Corps. My younger brother went to the Naval Academy and retired as a
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captain in the United States Marine Corps. Relation at least for between him and
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Stallions. However, I'm going to have to have some questions for my brother
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about the OPSEC training that they went through, because this seems a little sloppy.
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If this is all as reported by Pete Famil, I'm just going to
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read a few of the just a little bit from that Famial report in case
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you have missed it. Sources can confirmed to ESPN that Stallions purchase tickets on
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both sides of the stadium across from each bench for Ohio States game with Penn
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State on Saturday. Michigan plays both teams in upcoming weeks. According to sources,
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the tickets purchased by Stallions were not used on Saturday. Of course,
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his name emerged publicly in an ESPN story Friday, and then he was suspended
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with pay by Michigan. As I mentioned, eleven different tickets there have been,
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it said, none of the tickets that the eleven schools told ESPN about,
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So eleven schools have told ESPN about tickets purchased by Stallions. None of
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the tickets involved games with Michigan as an opponent, per sources, The games
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involved either one or both of the teams that the Wolverines were playing later that
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season, according to sources, And I think we're getting a better sense,
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Tony, for how this might have happened, because you know, when we
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talked on Friday, we were thinking, Okay, so this guy potentially was
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driving around and going to these games, and then you saw these these shots
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of him on the sideline with Jim Harball during games. So obviously he's not
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driving around to the other games. So how did this work? Sources indicated
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that Stallions forwarded tickets to at least three other individuals, with the ticket trendsfer
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showing up through the ticket data tracking. Those tickets were used by individuals other
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than Stallions to get into the game, including the one in the video the
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NCAA is expected to receive. And Tony, that video, you know,
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that feels like that might be the thing that sort of ties this all together.
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Yeah, I think through that video and some other evidence that will be
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shown. I know Ward Manuel said that they'll wait until the end of the
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NCA investigation. I don't know that they're going to need to wait to the
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end of the investigation to finalize whatever their contract situation is with Stallions, because
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it seems like the evidence that has already mounted is enough to seal his fate.
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With all of the receipts, the credit cards, why are you purchasing
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these tickets, who are you giving them to? What are they doing with
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them? Oh, we can see what they're doing with those tickets. Where
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is that information then going? It's all The math is pretty easy on this
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one. The difficult math is where does it go from here? But I
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would be surprised if by the end of the week there isn't something more definite
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with the Stallion's situation. And you know, the fact that he is at
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this point has this they doing everything on his own, so to speak,
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is It's a tough one for me to believe because not only is he doing
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it on his own, but others are doing it on their their own,
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like his his his seat sitters. I guess if you are like they're doing
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it on their own time as well, and everybody's a fantastic innocent in this,
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But there is a network, and I know there's going to be some
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brushback. I think them will initially called it a vast network and has continued
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to label it that, and you'll see some Michigan people saying it's just three
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guys, how's that a vast network? That feels like not the specific term,
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the word vast. It doesn't feel like the term that this is all
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going to come down to. Uh, you know, as far as the
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timing on this family's reporting to the NCAA is expected to receive video evidence this
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week of illegal technology used in scouting tied to tickets purchased by Stallions, according
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to sources and opposing Big ten School, looked up in stadium surveillance video from
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a game earlier this year. Sources said the person in the seat of the
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tickets purchased by Stallions held his smartphone up and appeared to film the home team
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sideline the entire game. So, you know, if that feels like you'd
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have to really really be stretching to not you know, if it is the
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person in the seat that was purchased by the staffer, and that's what they're
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doing. It feels like it's not much of a stretch to draw a line
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there. And Stallions of often purchased the tickets with his own credit card,
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according to sources. This is again from that ESPN them, will repeat,
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them, will report. The sources added the tickets at multiple venues brought via
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the online retailers such as stub hub or seat geek. The ticket purchases fall
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into a seat location pattern somewhere around the forty five yard line and raised up
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enough for a clear view of the opposite sideline. I mean, this all
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feels you know, I think we have to wait for you know, this
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is all reporting and sometimes recordings not exactly right, and this is all according
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to sources, so you got to kind of let this play out again.
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But if this is as reported, this feels real, straightforward. And then
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the only real question is how much of you know, how direct of a
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line is there from Stallions to Jim Harbaugh or Stallions to the coordinators, or
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Stallions to other people on Michigan staff. I mean, there was there were
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screenshots of his Venmo history going around, and there are other Michigan staffers who
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are friends with him on VENMO. So we don't know what that means yet
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that I have not seen proof of any kind of direct trend direct transactions there.
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We'll have to see how that kind of all plays out. But this
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also feels tony, like you know, I know, you know, the
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playbook here is to sort of say rogue, low level staffer, no one
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else knew, no one else had any idea. When you've got screenshots of
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the guy standing right next to Jim Harbaugh on the sidelines, I don't know
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that that makes him someone that you can just I don't even know that guy.
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I have no Oh hey, listen, there's lots of people in the
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program. You know. It feels like that's going to be a hard thing
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to dismiss unless you've made up your mind in advance that this definitely doesn't mean
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anything. The plausible deniability, there may be some of that there, but
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ignoring, as you said, the fact that he's down on the sideline next
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to the coaches. That's and he's not the getback coach. I think maybe
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if they would have been more been wiser to make him the get back coach,
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then he's got a reason for being down there or something like that,
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but that's not his role, and so it's like, well, why is
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this guy down there? Why is he one of those people down there?
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And the thing with Pete Thammil Ross Dellinger of s I like, this isn't
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the end of the story. They're going to continue to dig and they'll continue
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to find and at some point if there is a connection, like if there
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are real connections between telling him to do this and him going and doing it
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and then relaying it, I don't expect that to stay hidden. I would
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expect something like that to come out, and especially if Stallions gets sold out,
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like if he just gets sold down the river and it's like, well
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he's done. And that's something that I think Michigan has to protect against,
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unless, of course they're innocent, then they have nothing to you know,
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protect, But it's the having that much disbelief that this was just on one
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person's station, like that I'm going to do this, and that Jim Harbaugh
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or none of his coaches ever asked Connor, how do you know this?
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Like how are you getting And the answer, the only plausible answer that would
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not be an NCAA violation is Jim I'm psychic, I can I'm psychic.
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And then and then it's like, okay, well there's no there's no NCAA
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rules against being psychic, so let's just go with it. But to hire
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this guy for exactly you look at the the LinkedIn that we've talked about before,
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why did you hire him? And if the answer is, what is
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the answer, Because what you hired him for is seemingly exactly what you've gotten.
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And now you're saying, well, that's not what we asked him to
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do, that we have no knowledge of any of this, Like what was
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the reason he has hired? What does he do? What was the value
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in having him? What made him so valuable that you hired him full time?
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What convinced you to hire him full time? What is the second set
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of circumstances that led to that? Why did you feel you needed to make
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him a full time part of the program. And of course, Jim Harball,
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who has said he will be completely open and honest and forthcoming in this
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investigation, will not. I don't believe he'll answer most of those questions truthfully,
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and you know, or offer up some you know, just that don't
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of coach speak? Is the right word to use when talking to the NCAAA.
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But I don't expect him to I would not expect him to be forthcoming
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because I don't think he can be well. I think what the defense is
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going to be here. And you've sort of seen this from folks online who
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are pointing this or you know, there's a little bit of an obfuscation of
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lots of people steal signs, and that is true. Stealing science is part
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of the game of football. However, I'm going to just read from Pete
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Famill again so that no one accuses me of bias. I'm just going to
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read directly from p ESPN's Pete Famil, who does not really have a dog
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in this fight as far as i'm owre in terms of a fan hood or
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alma mater or anything like that, officials around the Big tenor upset of coordinative
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sources as allegations of this type of coordinated and orchestrated capturing of signals looms as
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distinctly different allegation than the allegations than the gamesmanship of attempting to decode signals from
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across the sideline in game stealing is not prohibited under NCAA rules. So you
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know that's something you've seen people sort of go, well, lots of people
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stole signs. I saw someone try and draw comparison to Mike Leach leaving a
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fake play sheet out for Texas to find in the Red River shootout, you
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know, twenty years ago, and I mean the the parallel drawn where there
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was Oh sure, it's funny when Mike Leach does it, but when Michigan
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does it, it's serious, and it's like, no, in this,
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Michigan's the Michigan is Texas. In this, Michigan is not you know,
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Michigan is Texas who was taking the information and doing something with acting upon the
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information has been taken from the other sideline. That feels like a real intentional
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obfuscation of what's going on here. And you know, speaking of intentional obfuscations,
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this is just useful context, I think in terms of how, you
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know, why could this be serious? Because there is not a direct punishment
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listed for this type of allegation. If it is proven, there's there is
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not a okay you get this and this and this Michigan, this is again
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from thermil Michigan, which was already involved in an NCAA investigation for alleged illegal
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recruit during the COVID nineteen dead period that you may have seen that reported.
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As Hamburger's has pledged full cooperation with the latest investigation, there's no precedent to
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indicate what any potential punishment would be for Michigan or head coach Jim Jim Harbaugh,
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as nca enforcement has never seen a case of this scope in sign stealing.
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And one other interesting point this is from Dan Wetzel. He said Yahoo
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Sports reported that some teams potentially scouted We're outside the Big Ten and we're considered
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possible playoff opponents, so the number could grow from the eleven that were cited
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in the Theamill report. I think, you know, I've seen a lot
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of people thinking, Okay, this is going to you know, Michigan is
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going to get bull banned this year, and so this whole season is going
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to go down the toilet. That is not Michigan fans saying that. I
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think that is hopeful fans from non Michigan schools. I certainly don't. I
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mean, that would that would be pretty unprecedented. The NCAA just took six
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years to settle the Kansas case and ended up not finding a whole lot.
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So you know, I mean, this all hinges on what they can prove
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and what you know, what evidence they're actually is. And we've seen reports
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of what the evidence might be, but not any actual evidence yet. But
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I don't think Tony, this is something that is going to impact this year's
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team regardless of what evidence comes out. Do you No, I don't,
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because that is that would be an unprecedented punishment. However, what we're seeing,
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what is being accused here and alleged here, is unprecedented as well.
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You know, it's bad when there's never even been a punishment thought up for
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this crime because nobody thought this crime ncaa crime would be committed. So just
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the time that it takes to come up with the punishment is probably significant.
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But you know, it's one of these things where it is, if they
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have found evidence of cheating, and that's what this would be this year,
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then would it be outrageous to punish them for it this year, like while
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while it's happening, while the head coach is still there, or do you
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let him walk after this year? And then we know that the NCA now
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doesn't want to punish players in the hindsight for stuff that happened while they weren't
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there, and the guy who did it is gone. So if you do
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want to punish Jim Harbaugh, like now would be the time to do it.
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However, I am I would be blown away if that happens, because
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that that is the kind of speed at which the NCAA has never ever,
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ever moved, unless you had too many pages in your media guide or too
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much cream cheese at your breakfast table. I'm sure the twenty twelve Ohigo State
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football team will be delighted to hear that the NCAA is no longer interested in
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punishing people for crimes committed or violations committed before they got to campus. I'm
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sure that will be tremendously tremendous relief to them. You know, the other
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thing that that kind of complicated this punishment is the other investigation that's going on
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right now where Harbaugh served a three game UH school imposed suspension, chiad More
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served a one game school imposed suspension. So you know, there is there
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is something there, and it is not It is more than just Hamburgers,
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no matter what you may have read online. So there's that, and that
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investigation still opens, So now you have potentially another investigation that you know,
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the fact that there is one open investigation now another one. You know,
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there are three levels of punishment with the NCAA. Level three, which is
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the lowest, and that's the real minor stuff that oh, you know,
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too much cream, cheese or whatever. Level two is more serious. Level
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one is the most serious. Uh, the allegations against Harball for the previous
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case where considered level one allegations. These could potentially rise to the level of
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level one allegations as well, especially given the other open investigation. You're you're
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not you know, you're not technically on probation because that's actually a thing that
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the NCAA says, you're not improbation yet because they haven't resolved the first case
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yet. But if you have one case open and then there's another case that
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opens up, that's also you know, considered serious, it is viewed as
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more serious because of the other open investigation that you know, Hey, we're
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already talking to you about this and now you're doing that. That's sort of
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how the ncuble A works. I mean, this is this is way too
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early to ask, but I feel like I need to ask one more question.
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So I'm going to ask it, Tony, what is your guess as
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to what happens here? Because it feels to me like sometime in twenty twenty
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four, current San Diego Chargers head coach Jim Harbaugh finds out that he has
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a you know, show calls from the NCAA for a few years and kind
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of goes, I don't know, I mean, I don't know. Pete
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Carroll said I should do this, so you know, kind of you kind
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of the beat the posse out of town again. If this is all proven,
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this sort of feels like where that could be headed. We've talked about
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Jim Harbor leaving even before there was this, just leaving with all of his
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players basically who are going to be headed to the NFL, and how this
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would be the opportunity of the time to leave. Now it's especially if this
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all comes to pass, the time to leave, and I do think that
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this is going to be it for him. I kind of felt that way,
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leaning that way before this and now this if especially if the NCAA definitely
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hits them, you know, But he, like I said, I think
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he's probably gone before that. That's why I wonder what happens to them afterwards,
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because I do expect Michigan to be hit for this, but I don't
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think the NCAA is going to get Jim Harbaugh because I do think he will
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leave after this year, and whether he was on the fence about it or
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not, I don't think he's on the fence any longer. And this is
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something that will that will it would chase a lot of guys to the NFL.
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However, the only guy I've ever heard who has been, you know,
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connected to this in terms of head coaching, So I wonder how other
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head coaches would have handled it, but this so far, Jim Harbaugh is
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the only one that we've ever seen connected possibly allegedly to something like this.
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But yeah, I think he's I think he's leaving one way or the other,
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and I don't think things will move quickly enough for Michigan to send him
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backing. Would you be more You'd be more surprised if Michigan fires him than
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if he just leaves, right, Yeah, I would be pretty surprised if
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Michigan fires him because I think you have to let the investigation play out,
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and I mean, I feel like we need to keep saying this over and
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over and over again, because you have to let the investigation play out.
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Just because it says this an ESPN doesn't mean this is a proven fact.
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Just because it says this is what the video shows doesn't mean that's a proven
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fact. But if it is born out and this is not you know,
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this is not from Joe Blow's blog. This is from you know, Pete
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Famil and Dan Wetzel and Ross Ellinger. These are respected national writers who have
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who are pretty well sourced and are not interested in get you know, screwing
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around and throwing out unsubstantiated stuff. So the source on here makes me think
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this is there's probably something there to the point that we're talking about this and
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it's worth a conversation. You know. I think one thing we need to
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talk about why we're talking about Jim Harbaugh and you know that that's the name
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we're throwing out here in connection with Okay you assume the Stallion stuff is if
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it sticks to Stallions, why are we talking about Jim Harbaugh and why are
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we just assuming NCW by law eleven point one point one point one states that
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a head coach is quote presumed figures to be responsible for the actions of all
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institutional staff members who report directly or indirectly to the head coach. And it
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is the head coach's responsibility to quote monitor the activities of all institutional staff members
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involved with the program who report directly or indirectly to the coach. So you
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know that, that's why you know, we're not just throwing out Jim Harbaugh's
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name and saying, ah, he's a guy I've heard of. There is
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a direct there's a direct NCAA bylaw that makes him responsible for the actions.
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And you know, you can't do the what'samoida thing? That's that doesn't really
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fly if you have someone on your staff who is directly violating the rules,
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as it is alleged in this case. We will let the whole system prove,
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you know, plan it play itself out. But oh boy, it
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is you know, for an undefeated team Tony that just beat its in state
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rival by one hundred trillion points and also watch them put Hitler on the scoreboard,
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it is somehow a tumultuous week in an arbor. Boy, the state
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of Michigan having a season in the in the college football world. Oh boy,
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if you'd like to hear more about that game and the College Football Playoff
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implications of that game, and Big Ten Championship implications of all that game,
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all that stuff. Tony and I are also recording an episode of the Michigan
21:52
Monday Podcast for the Buckeye Weekly Podcast feed today, so you'll be able to
21:56
hear all of that. We wanted to kind of silo this stuff off because
21:57
that you know, we to talk about, you know, on field stuff
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there with the Michigan Monday Podcast. What that you know, what Michigan did,
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what it means for the Ohios d at Michigan game, what don't mean
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for the Big Ten Championship chase, and much more. So we'll have this
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sort of silo that conversation off on that show. But there's enough interesting developments
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we wanted to have this one as well, So if you want to have
22:18
other conversations with us, you can do that at buckey Huddle dot com.
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We are both part of the team covering the Ohios Date Buckeyes along with Kevin
22:26
Noon got Mark Gibler very busy on the recruiting beat. This week, we're
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going to try and have Mark on that's probably at this point going to just
22:32
be a bonus episode of the Buckeyes Tomorrow Morning podcast. I was planning and
22:34
having that be the episode for today and then this all happened. So you're
22:38
talking to Mark a little later on. We'll drop that very busy recruiting time
22:42
for the buck Eyes, a very very busy recruiting weekend for the during the
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Penn State game. Brought a lot of visitors in for that. It's going
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to be some potentially you know, potentially some news coming out of that week
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soon ish. We'll see how that goes. But we'll talk to Mark about
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that on an episode this week. And then of course we'll have Ross Fulton
22:57
on Ex's and Ose Guru. We've got a bunch of those guys all on
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the huddle Borderpuckeye uddle dot Com there to make you a smarter football fan,
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help you understand what you're seeing, what you might not be noticing while you're
23:08
watching the game. It is all at Buckeyehuddle dot com. That will do
23:11
it for today. I thank you guys all for joining us. Have a
23:12
great day. We'll talk to you tomorrow.