Latest / Faith Rehab / Ep. 9 - Matthew Scott-Lee: The Part of Me the Church Wanted to Fix

Transcript

Ep. 9 - Matthew Scott-Lee: The Part of Me the Church Wanted to Fix · Faith Rehab

0:00
SPEAKER_01: On today's episode, you're gonna hear about how Heidi dated a gay guy.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: You are.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: You're gonna learn about my wonderful friend Matt, who I've known since I was five years old.
0:12
SPEAKER_04: And you're gonna hear why it's important to keep your phone battery charged.
0:16
SPEAKER_04: Enjoy, guys.
0:29
unknown: Okay.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Hey, welcome to Faith Rehab.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: Here we are once again with real talk about church hurt, healing, and rebuilding your faith.
0:38
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
0:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm Steve.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: I'm a professional therapist, and I'm not your therapist.
0:43
SPEAKER_01: So you get a freebie and you get to ignore me at all costs.
0:46
SPEAKER_04: That's what I do.
0:47
SPEAKER_04: Hey, my name is uh CJ, former BMI2High.
0:50
SPEAKER_04: I'm still BMI too high, but not too much.
0:53
SPEAKER_04: I don't know what to do.
0:54
SPEAKER_04: April messed my messed up my name.
0:55
SPEAKER_04: She messed you up.
0:56
SPEAKER_04: Your cousin.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: Just lean into it.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: BMI kind of high.
1:00
SPEAKER_04: It's getting lower.
1:02
SPEAKER_04: But uh I mentioned before that I like band stuff, and I never was mentioned this, but I played my primary instrument was French horn.
1:10
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
1:11
SPEAKER_04: Which I met Steve's friend at his wedding anniversary, also played French horn, and we had a great conversation.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: Two French horns players in one place.
1:20
SPEAKER_01: Is that very rare?
1:21
SPEAKER_00: Sounds like the punchline to a joke or the morning of a joke.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: Two French horn players welcome to a bar.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: That's funny.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm I'm Heidi.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm T M I Too High.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: And if you met me in real life, you'd realize how censored I actually am when I'm on this podcast.
1:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:38
SPEAKER_01: What you don't get to hear is all the other stuff.
1:41
SPEAKER_01: Hey, today we have a great interview with a guy that I think you're gonna love, a guy named Matt, a friend of Heidi's.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: She's gonna be telling us all about it.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: And he stand by because you're gonna hear a wide range of topics and you're gonna want him as your therapist.
1:57
SPEAKER_01: He's so good.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: So today it is my pleasure to introduce to you my oldest and dearest friend, Matthew Scott.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: We have known each other since kindergarten, if you can believe that.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: And we are so happy and excited to have you here, Matt.
2:26
SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Matt.
2:27
SPEAKER_02: I'm very happy to be here.
2:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Heidi and I had a matching pair of mittens.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: Whoa.
2:33
SPEAKER_02: Part of our origin story.
2:35
SPEAKER_02: Or origin story, yes.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: We met on the playground and we had the same mittens, which were men's black socks.
2:46
SPEAKER_00: Because we were poor.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: We were poor.
2:52
SPEAKER_00: Matt doesn't have the same memory as I do, but that's because I like to fabricate sometimes.
2:58
SPEAKER_04: No.
2:59
SPEAKER_04: So you were you were on the playground and you saw another kid with black socks on their hands, and you guys just approach each other.
3:05
unknown: Yeah.
3:06
SPEAKER_02: I I have like very little memory of my childhood.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: Heidi is my memory.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: So if I need to remember, like what happened?
3:13
SPEAKER_02: Like Heidi, tell me, tell me about my childhood.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: I think I was always fascinated by Matt from the time I was small because I'm such a deep feeler.
3:25
SPEAKER_00: And Matt was a deep feeler, is how I remember him.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, when we went to a Christian school and when Matt would pray, he would kneel on the seat of the desk and kind of put his, he'd fold his hands and he would put his head down on the desk.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: And he just prayed these mature prayers for such a little body.
3:46
SPEAKER_00: And um, I have so much, so much love and admiration for for Matt that I'm I'm almost worried about how to interview him because we've been through a lot together and he's so special to me.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, our favorite thing to do is sing together.
4:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, we have to have this on the show to do it.
4:11
SPEAKER_01: Pick a tune and let's go.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: Come on.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: I got it.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: Everybody loves the way you move.
4:22
SPEAKER_03: Ooh.
4:30
SPEAKER_02: The delay is too happy as we take 20 to 30 percent of the lyrics, and we just I love it.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: Matt has a rule.
4:41
SPEAKER_00: Matt has a rule.
4:43
SPEAKER_00: If you start to sing the words wrong, you have to be committed.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: Like you can't because we used to leave Marco Polos for each other where we would just like sing.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: We need to bring that back.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: First of all, thank you for giving our listeners some advice that if you're looking for friends, just go buy some men's socks, put them on your hand.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: It's tried and true.
5:02
SPEAKER_01: People have used this for decades.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but let's give people an idea of like other than being Heidi's oldest and dearest friend and a wonderful guy who I had the opportunity to meet.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'm just gonna rapid fire you with some questions.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: Okay, Matt, you have a bachelor's degree.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna go real quick.
5:19
SPEAKER_01: Where did you get it from?
5:20
SPEAKER_02: Uh, College of the Ozarks.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: College of the Ozarks, like what is their mascot?
5:25
SPEAKER_01: Is it like a mountain or a goat or what is the bobcats?
5:29
SPEAKER_01: Bobcats.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: All right.
5:31
SPEAKER_02: Go bobcats.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: Go bobcats.
5:33
SPEAKER_01: You have also a master's degree.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: Where did you get your master's?
5:37
SPEAKER_02: I got a master's degree from Regent University at Robertson 700 Club.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I got an MFA in acting and directing there, and then kind of call that my former life.
5:47
SPEAKER_02: And then in my current, they're my second go at life.
5:52
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I got a master's degree from Missouri State University in counseling.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: You went from acting to counseling.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: As a professional therapist myself, I would say that seems like a very seamless transition.
6:05
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
6:07
SPEAKER_01: Don't let your clients know I said that.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: Um so acting and you were doing like a lot of producing, acting, that kind of stuff.
6:16
SPEAKER_01: What's what was your favorite role?
6:18
SPEAKER_02: What have you done that was like a Midsummer Night's Dream?
6:22
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
6:23
SPEAKER_02: Was my favorite.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: Um I was there for that.
6:26
SPEAKER_02: I was I I 90% was sure that you were there for that and was about to say it and was like, I think Heidi was there for that.
6:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was uh it was lovely, very funny.
6:36
SPEAKER_02: And uh were you Thisby?
6:38
SPEAKER_00: I don't remember.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
6:39
SPEAKER_02: Francis Flute, who played Thisby, and yeah, yeah, that was a lot of fun.
6:43
SPEAKER_02: I really like physical comedy, so yes.
6:47
SPEAKER_01: So after for a professional therapist, there's like initials after their names.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: What are the initials after your name?
6:53
SPEAKER_02: LPC, licensed professional counselor.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: California finally has that.
6:59
SPEAKER_01: That was a big thing in the Midwest for a long time, but California finally has that.
7:03
SPEAKER_01: And what tell us what you're doing now?
7:06
SPEAKER_01: What's your practice?
7:07
SPEAKER_01: What do you do?
7:08
SPEAKER_02: Full-time, I work private practice.
7:10
SPEAKER_02: So I work for myself, uh downtown Springfield.
7:14
SPEAKER_02: I have an office here working with uh adult clients, uh, largely LGBTQ community, clients with trauma experiences, uh deconstructing their faith.
7:26
SPEAKER_02: And those are kind of the primary clients that I work with.
7:29
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: So at the end, we're gonna I'm gonna turn this back over to Heine in a second, but just for our listeners, if you hear some stuff that you like, and believe me, you will.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: If you are in the greater Missouri area, we're gonna give you his contact information and and let you figure out how to get a hold of him.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: He does in-person and also video, so you can be wherever there.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: I can't even name towns in Missouri other than St.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: Louis and Springfield.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: And I think the Simpsons are there in Springfield anyway.
7:59
SPEAKER_01: So um that you uh that people can get a hold of you, and we'll we'll give them all that information at the end.
8:05
SPEAKER_01: But thank you for that little sort of bio.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: And now let's get back to the fun stuff that Heidi has planned.
8:12
SPEAKER_00: I think I would add something that I really admire about Matt.
8:17
SPEAKER_00: I always wanted to believe that like my life was a work of art.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: And Matt lives that way, whether it's intentional or not, in how he decorates and how he works with his hands.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's like a craftsman and he has plants and animals, and um, he lives his life with like whimsy and radical inclusion of other people.
8:40
SPEAKER_00: If I had to like capture Matt in a story, when I went through my divorce, Matt got in the car and just drove up to be with me.
8:48
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: And we shared my first Easter as a pastor's wife without a church community or a husband on Lake Michigan, and we did this thing where we we were like writing on rocks the things that we wanted to let go of.
9:05
SPEAKER_00: And you know, you watch the movies and it's like this dramatic, like you're putting it on a rock and you're throwing it in the water.
9:11
SPEAKER_00: And so like Matt throws his, and then I went and threw it and it just like went poop, like so far, it just kind of landed right in front of me.
9:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, but he is the get in the car and drive to you.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: You need a family vacation.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: Heidi, I'm gonna come.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna take, you know, Sawyer to on a vacation together.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: And he he's just showed up for me in the ways that I think I hurt the most.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: And I would imagine, Matt, that maybe some of that came from the ways that you felt like people weren't showing up for you.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's true or not.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think there's a lot of uh the person I've become that's come out of the some of what I'll share today.
10:00
SPEAKER_02: I think I have a very big heart for the underdog and really resonate with stories of people who feel somehow like an outsider, misunderstood.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: We even got to work together for a little bit there because you were kind of learning some of the D E and I work with me.
10:19
SPEAKER_00: And we were able to travel together and kind of co-train some classes.
10:24
SPEAKER_00: And I've just learned so much from Matt on how to be a better professional in this space and how to be inclusive with my language and thoughtful in my questions, and to not be afraid to go to messy places, that if I trust myself enough, we can have a mature conversation about something hard and land in a good place.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: So, again, to go back to my original question to share with the listeners and us how you would describe your growing up experience.
10:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would say uh my years up till puberty were pretty positive.
11:01
SPEAKER_02: Yes, Heidi and I grew up poor, but I had no idea, no concept that we were poor.
11:08
SPEAKER_02: Um we felt like a very supportive environment, creative environment.
11:14
SPEAKER_02: Uh I think that the Christian school that Heidi and I went to was a really good place for me to grow as a child, uh, because it was very safe.
11:28
SPEAKER_02: I left the Christian school in sixth grade, and uh leaving that was quite hard because I didn't realize how protected of an environment that I was in, and navigating as a seventh grader, navigating both puberty and the secular world.
11:46
SPEAKER_02: It was a very stark moment in my life and hard to process.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: So I say all that because I think childhood was really a pretty positive experience, and I just really enjoy the memories from that time period.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: Um we never really grew out of that, right?
12:06
SPEAKER_00: Like if you were to like look back at our life together, like one year for Christmas, Matt got me a duffel bag full of costumes and wigs from the thrift store.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: You know, like we just we still to this day are those creative, thoughtful kids.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think it was Matt who really kind of helped me uncover and rediscover that part of me when I went through my divorce, like how important it was to play, because that there's something really healing about that, right?
12:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I think it's one of the my uh favorite parts of who the person I become that just connected to that inner, childlike, playful.
13:06
SPEAKER_02: I think it was a part of me that I grew embarrassed of for a season of my life, and now I really celebrate that I uh can go there.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: Uh I think it's something that people seem to connect with that my ability to go to a place of just pure childlike whimsy and fun.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: And there's there's something so healthy and and pure about that.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: I mean, even Jesus said, you know, your faith should be childlike.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: And and C.S.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: Lewis has this great quote that I love that that joy is the serious business of heaven.
13:41
SPEAKER_01: And I and and I I know we'll talk about faith in a little bit, but there's something so pure.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: And my wife who's a former kindergarten teacher, I will tell you, and I mean this in all um I mean this completely.
13:56
SPEAKER_01: People like me because I'm friendly and nice, they love her because she will hug them, she doesn't care about you know social rules sometimes, and she's likely in the supermarket to break out into a song.
14:14
SPEAKER_01: It's usually a kindergarten song.
14:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I I just love that that your joy is, you know, sort of coming out of every pore.
14:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I've uh enjoy being playful of my the partner I'm with uh is able to match my energy, and it's lovely just uh create and play and yes and each other take an improv term.
14:42
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, it's so funny because we are I think what's fun is that we can go to those places and then we can just take a deep dive into like a really serious place, which is a perfect segue for this next part that we're gonna talk about.
15:00
SPEAKER_00: So you have this like Christian upbringing, you're in a Christian school, you kind of hit the skids in middle school when reality hits that the world is maybe not as safe as you thought.
15:10
SPEAKER_00: Um at what point did you feel different in the sense that you knew even though Heidi is amazing, she's just not my cup of tea.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: And what was that?
15:27
SPEAKER_00: What was that like?
15:29
SPEAKER_00: With all yeah, just share that part.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: I think the first time I became consciously aware, uh my parents remember this differently when I had asked them, but I feel like the sex talk happened in sixth grade uh when there was a note that had been passed between me and a classmate uh that I uh had great hair.
15:53
SPEAKER_02: Um and uh he did.
15:57
SPEAKER_02: And uh the note was found and it uh was clearly some kind of flirting.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: And I didn't recognize it at the time of what that was, but that was the first time through the sex talk I'm learning like, oh, this is different for a boy to be attracted to boys.
16:15
SPEAKER_02: Uh I know that that message had to be received earlier on, but that was the first time I can remember it being a stark like uh first awareness that this is a problem.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: And uh this is going to be a problem.
16:34
SPEAKER_02: So you knew even then that there was maybe some shame attached to it that because of how we grew up, maybe Yeah, yeah, there was definitely a lot of shame there, and I think that's where puberty just became a very stark moment of this is a really big problem that I have to fix.
16:55
SPEAKER_02: Uh there's a beautiful sense of belonging in the church community where when everything's working and you're um you're existing within the framework, and in that moment you're like, oh, this is a very uh uncomfortable position to be in.
17:12
SPEAKER_02: Uh I think kind of propelled what ended up being probably 15 years of my life of trying to uh fight that that reality of being gay.
17:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm just trying to get a picture of that kind of shameful moments.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: Were people saying things?
17:33
SPEAKER_01: Were you just feeling I'm an other, I don't fit in, all these people are X and I'm Y?
17:39
SPEAKER_01: You know, how how was that playing itself out?
17:42
SPEAKER_02: I don't really remember any specific language around being different.
17:48
SPEAKER_02: I'm pretty confident it was not directed at me, but I grew up with listening to uh James Dobson, Focus on the Family, and listening back.
18:01
SPEAKER_02: I've heard enough clips that make me think like surely something had to have come on the radio, something had to have been said that kind of made the point of where gay people stood in the world of the church.
18:17
SPEAKER_02: Um, but I don't have any specific memory of anyone in the church saying something uh at the early ages.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
18:26
SPEAKER_04: It probably could have just been like lack of hearing what's normal and what's like your situation is.
18:33
SPEAKER_04: You just didn't hear it enough to know that if it's okay or not, right?
18:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's definitely not something uh talked about, which is so different than uh younger people going through school now.
18:47
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it yeah, being gay is uh at least discussed a topic that still people have differing opinions on, but I don't remember outside of it being a slur, uh I don't really remember it being a discussion of gay people or uh mar obviously gay marriages weren't a thing at the time.
19:09
SPEAKER_00: So you kind of uh in middle school can feel the difference, and then you moved away to Missouri.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: And what was that like?
19:19
SPEAKER_02: That was fourth grade or third grade, and that's funny.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: I still remember that as being a positive experience, but I know that it wasn't because I was I went to public school and I remember taking everything.
19:35
SPEAKER_02: I had a teacher that would blanketly say, You all are bad kids or you all are troublemakers, and I would take every bit like a personal, like, she's talking about me, what am I doing?
19:48
SPEAKER_02: And so I think my nervous system for someone who's never been in trouble and wants to be the good kid didn't understand that I was not who she was talking about.
20:01
SPEAKER_02: But I s I say all that because I I think that was still until puberty hit, I still have a fair amount of positive memories uh of just all of that time.
20:14
SPEAKER_02: And to my parents' credit, I don't feel like I was ever not allowed to be who I was as a kid.
20:22
SPEAKER_02: Um so I would play dress up, I would dress as a girl, put on wigs, put on makeup, um, and uh I never felt like I had to be something other than what I was as a kid.
20:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh I think puberty that changed, but at least during that time frame it was okay uh to explore and be creative.
20:48
SPEAKER_04: Was there a big cultural difference from when you moved there being the Bible Belt?
20:53
SPEAKER_04: And I've I have family there.
20:55
SPEAKER_04: I've heard things like Lee Summit is nearby.
20:57
SPEAKER_04: And was there a big change in that regard?
21:01
SPEAKER_02: No, but only because the community I was in in Illinois was I want to use the word insular.
21:08
SPEAKER_02: I don't actually know that I know what that means, but uh my my partner who didn't grew up grow up in the church always laughs at my use of secular.
21:16
SPEAKER_02: Like I did not grow up in a secular environment, I didn't listen, wasn't allowed to listen to secular music, and so everything revolved around the church and Christian uh media.
21:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, so but that was a lot of having to do with uh your parents' upbringing, and then I I don't remember what their jobs were, but that was that was sort of how they were raising their family.
21:41
SPEAKER_01: We're gonna be Christian, we're gonna, you know, live in this world and this insular bubble.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: Matt, am I remembering this right?
21:51
SPEAKER_01: Were they missionaries or they were church-related work or something like that?
21:56
SPEAKER_02: I think it was in the third or fourth grade time period.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: My dad felt called to become a missionary to Portugal.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: And so for what I remember to be a year-ish, uh, we were uh out uh trying to raise funds, going to churches.
22:15
SPEAKER_02: Um Visiting different churches and trying to get um to be taken on as part of their missions work.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: And I was devastated.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: Like I remember you talking about it and I like coming to school and praying about it that because you know you take prayer requests when you're in a Christian school and just thinking, what does this mean?
22:36
SPEAKER_00: You know, I have abandonment issues and he's gonna leave me.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: He came to my birthday party right before he had moved, and he bought me a blue jean purse and walked around the party with it the whole time.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: Like I opened it and then he was like, thank you.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: Before he left, I'm like, Matt, you have to return the burst that you gave me for my birthday.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: So when did you start to really wrestle with it where you knew, okay, like I'll say this because my mom's best friend was gay growing up and we were always around him.
23:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't think I had the same conflict that Matt was experiencing.
23:20
SPEAKER_00: And so Matt and I would have conversations, and it would break my heart.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: It still breaks my heart to talk about it because you felt tortured.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: Like there was something that you couldn't name or fix.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: You that's what you said.
23:36
SPEAKER_00: I want to go back to that.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: You were like, I just knew that I had like something that I had to fix.
23:40
SPEAKER_00: What was that journey like for you?
23:43
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it because before puberty, attraction looks like um that boy has great hair.
23:50
SPEAKER_02: And so it didn't really feel that abnormal.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: Um, I wasn't really aware.
23:57
SPEAKER_02: It just felt like a curiosity or like, oh, I really like hanging out with this person.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: But but when puberty hits and then hormones and sexual desire, it became very real that this was something that was a powerful energy inside of me that I didn't feel like I had control over.
24:19
SPEAKER_02: And the language of the community around me is this is my worldly flesh, this is uh my cross to bear.
24:27
SPEAKER_02: That's how it felt like I couldn't perceive it as any other thing because that's how I feel I can use the word literally, literally.
24:38
SPEAKER_02: I think literally everyone in my life had that perspective.
24:42
SPEAKER_02: I don't think I had uh one person in my life that had a different perspective what of what it meant to be gay.
24:48
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
24:48
SPEAKER_01: And so what were you doing to try to fix it?
24:50
SPEAKER_01: Like, what did that look like?
24:52
SPEAKER_01: So what I'm just picturing this internal battle.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: Like everybody thinks something's wrong with me.
24:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm wondering if something's wrong with me.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: I want to fix it, and I'm just thinking, literally, kind of being torn in your spirit and in your soul of like, what did you then do?
25:11
SPEAKER_01: Like, if you're you're such a caring person, you're like, well, I gotta fix it.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: That means work hard.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: And so what was that like?
25:20
SPEAKER_02: Early years of conversion therapy, uh, when it was first getting its momentum, and um and I remember getting caught uh looking at pornography.
25:35
SPEAKER_02: Uh I think my dad found my search history.
25:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh I don't really remember exactly how that all played out, but the end result was that in this very shameful moment, I'm also being outed.
25:47
SPEAKER_02: Uh, so my dad discovers that I am gay at the same moment I'm being feeling deep shame for looking at pornography.
25:56
SPEAKER_02: And so it felt like I was a hundred percent all in of I need to fix this.
26:05
SPEAKER_02: And at the time, because conversion therapy was getting its footing, my dad did research and found the uh the Joseph Nicolosi clinic in California, and I met with one of his therapists over the phone.
26:23
SPEAKER_02: I think that ended up being for about uh seven, ten years.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: Um wow.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: First of all, wow.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: And second of all, for those of us like we've heard the term conversion therapy, and we know it's controversial.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: There's very passionate people that are like, let's fix all the gay people, and then there's very passionate people that say that's torture, like you're actually torturing children.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: So give us a little thumbnail.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: What is it?
26:53
SPEAKER_02: I have learned through meeting other people that have gone through conversion therapy that it is a very large umbrella that has included a lot of different things.
27:04
SPEAKER_02: I have met peers that have experienced much more overtly abusive, just pretty awful things that have happened.
27:16
SPEAKER_02: Um I I think what was uh part of what trying not to swear effed with my mind was You can swear.
27:28
SPEAKER_02: We have uh we have an adult rating on our channel, which I am proud of.
27:34
SPEAKER_02: So part of the mind fuck of this uh conversion therapy that I was a part of is it was very rooted in love and compassion.
27:44
SPEAKER_02: And so the language that was used felt very caring and supportive of my journey.
27:53
SPEAKER_02: And so I think I think had I experienced more of the abuse the over abusive approach, I think I would have probably gotten out sooner.
28:03
SPEAKER_02: But because it was uh in that language, I think I stayed longer than was well, a day would have been longer than what I needed, but I stayed much longer than was useful.
28:17
SPEAKER_04: Matt, can you give more examples of how it could be abusive?
28:21
SPEAKER_04: I'm like actually curious to know how it could be abusive to some people, even in abstract.
28:27
SPEAKER_02: I think the conversion therapy movement is one thing, and then individual pastors or elders taking it to the next level, feeling doing their own spin-off of uh what needed to happen.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: And so just pretty gross, like having the person come out to the entire congregation.
28:50
SPEAKER_04: Public shame.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: Ugh, Matt, I'm I this is so heavy for me because I've sat across the table from you so many times having these conversations as you were trying to sort out the more like complicated features of your faith and how it matched what you were being told or or what you were the shame that you were feeling.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: I just want to stop and say that so many queer youth commit suicide because they don't have the support that they need.
29:22
SPEAKER_00: And when I watched you go through that, that scared me more than anything.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: Is I just wanted to know that my friend Matt was gonna be okay.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: And it's easy to talk about this stuff now, kind of in broader terms, because it's you know, 20 years removed.
29:41
SPEAKER_00: But when you were in it, it was so obvious that you had been internalizing so much of your pain and that the contrast of like this beautiful, playful boy that I knew faced with this internal torture and then the external pressure of the church's expectations.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm just so thankful that you are here because who have okay, if you are a Christian and you have gay people in your life and you are cutting them off because you feel like that's what God is telling you to do, you miss out on opportunities to know incredible human beings that have contributed more to my faith journey than anybody who's been inside of a church.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I know that we're not supposed to be angry on here, but sometimes I get a little heated up.
30:38
SPEAKER_04: Why not?
30:40
SPEAKER_04: It can be.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: No, we're we're supposed to be real, is what we're supposed to be.
30:44
SPEAKER_01: And thank you for that.
30:45
SPEAKER_01: I just echo that.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: And and I'd like for you to talk about this a little bit more, maybe, Matt, is that sincerely you were trying to not be gay.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: For those that don't know, I had the privilege of meeting Matt earlier, I think a year ago or something like that, and just came to love just a beautiful soul.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: And I don't know anybody who has tried harder to not be gay, just to please God and please Christian people and please his family.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: And I know there are people listening, Matt, that are are not really sure what that means, but there's other people that go, I feel that.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: I've been trying that.
31:26
SPEAKER_01: Can you just talk about that for a minute?
31:30
SPEAKER_02: When you're in that instellar community and the consequence you sense of being openly gay is exclusion of a wide variety of degrees.
31:44
SPEAKER_02: But exclusion.
31:46
SPEAKER_02: It feels like the worst thing that could happen.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: And so the concept of conversion therapy is that we are gay because we had a overbearing mother and a absent father.
32:01
SPEAKER_02: And when we hit puberty, that uh that desire for a father became sexualized, and so that need or desire towards masculinity became sexualized.
32:15
SPEAKER_02: And so the idea behind conversion therapy is that you work towards repair in your relationships with men, trying to uh build healthy relationships with male friends and repairing a relationship with your dad if you can.
32:32
SPEAKER_02: And so I did all of that.
32:33
SPEAKER_02: Uh and it was until I I think about 2830, somewhere in there, that I was working uh exclusively towards that goal.
32:47
SPEAKER_02: Um there was a promise to conversion therapy that it could be fixed, that uh it was possible.
32:56
SPEAKER_02: And the I I don't think this is unique to Christianity.
33:01
SPEAKER_02: I think there when there is a cognitive dissonance around a group of people like this, it's nice when you have um a model citizen that you like, okay, this is what a good gay person looks like.
33:16
SPEAKER_02: And so in the church, there were these gay men for a few years of their life that were touted as the model gay men that were the heads of like Exodus International and uh Love and Action and other things that uh other groups that were part of this conversion therapy movement.
33:40
SPEAKER_02: For a while, their stories are kind of like proof.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: This is evidence that this is possible.
33:45
SPEAKER_02: Look at this gay man that married a woman, look how happy they are.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: And then 10 years later, they're all divorced and married men and share the broader story of how that was playing out and what that felt like to be that like model that everybody was looking towards and talking about.
34:08
SPEAKER_02: Um and in in much smaller ways, I feel like that's who I was for a lot of Christians in my life.
34:14
SPEAKER_02: That because there are a fair amount of people who knew that I was gay, uh struggling with same-sex attractions was the language that was used.
34:23
SPEAKER_02: And I had that pressure of being like, I need to be one of the good ones and uh show everybody how you can be gay and still be a Christian.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I mean, because at the at the time you had gone to Christian universities, you were teaching at a Christian college, right?
34:45
SPEAKER_00: And so you were doing all the right things, and I'm putting it in air quotes, um, but there was still that disconnect.
34:55
SPEAKER_00: And to your parents' credit, especially your mom, and Matt lost his mom earlier this year, right?
35:03
SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah.
35:03
SPEAKER_02: Uh last fall, yeah.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: She's sorry, yeah.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
35:08
SPEAKER_00: She was uh she just adored Matt.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was just like so obvious.
35:14
SPEAKER_00: His mom was the kind of mom that like joy just oozed out of her entire body.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: And when Matt was around, it was just this like smile and bubbly laugh, and um, which is what shaped, I think, a lot of who Matt is now as a man.
35:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I want to back up for a second before we jump off this.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
35:35
SPEAKER_01: Matt, you went through conversion therapy and for seven years, I just can't imagine the torture of that and trying to be perfect and trying to will the gay out of you.
35:47
SPEAKER_01: There's people listening right now that go, Hey, I've got some family members that are gay and they should try it.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: We like this is an answer.
35:56
SPEAKER_01: It's maybe not the answer for everybody, but it's it's an answer.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: And so I just want you to speak to them.
36:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I uh first we'll say seven years was with the first therapist, but it was closer to 15, 20 years of the being with the conversion therapy movement and its multiple iterations.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so when I say no one has tried harder than Matt, he dated me.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, what is trying harder than being in a relationship with me?
36:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm amazing.
36:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm she is amazing.
36:29
SPEAKER_01: That's a whole nother episode.
36:32
SPEAKER_01: We should do a Heidi episode just on humble Heidi over here.
36:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, amazing.
36:37
SPEAKER_01: But um but she is but no one has I mean, you and I don't know how to say this any any, I think you're too humble to say it, but I I think that the pain of 15 years of really soul-wrenching something must be wrong with me, and that that is painful for anybody for any circumstances, but but I know there's people that still think hey, conversion therapy is a thing, we should do it.
37:08
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I actually struggle with this because this has been a legal debate on whether it should be legal to offer conversion therapy.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: Right.
37:18
SPEAKER_02: And you would think that I would have a hundred percent black and white answer to this question.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: And the only reason I don't is I think the benefit of conversion therapy for me was I needed to know that I had tried everything and gotten to the other side of it to realize like I had hit a brick wall.
37:43
SPEAKER_02: I had to come to the realization myself that the well-intended people around me do not know my experience better.
37:54
SPEAKER_02: Do not know my experience better than myself.
37:57
SPEAKER_02: And I they have uh supported me in this journey, but there is unfortunately an undercurrent of they need this to be true for themselves.
38:10
SPEAKER_02: Right.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: They need this to work for them, and so I had to hit that brick wall, and I don't the only reason why I can't say like I would I'm against outlawing conversion therapy altogether is just the thinking of my younger self.
38:30
SPEAKER_02: What would have happened if I didn't hit that brick wall and come to that realization?
38:36
SPEAKER_02: And would I be left in this forever gray area feeling like, is did I not try everything like I can now walk away feeling like no, I did everything that y'all said and it did not work, and so now I can move on with my life.
38:55
SPEAKER_04: Um I got a story I want to tell it's super relatable, and um, I don't even think Steve and Heidi knows this, but uh my dad's a pastor, and he kind of ordained me in his church to be a youth, a youth leader, and I had we had the greatest youth.
39:12
SPEAKER_04: Like it was out of my parents' house, we had like 30, 40 kids coming every Friday.
39:16
SPEAKER_04: But it was during that time during Prop 8 in California where we're voting for gay marriage.
39:21
SPEAKER_04: I honestly wasn't deep enough into knowing my theology about you know homosexuality.
39:28
SPEAKER_04: But I love this group because they were so honest.
39:31
SPEAKER_04: Uh honesty that you never get from an adult Bible study, if you know your general Bible study.
39:37
SPEAKER_04: Um, but they started asking these questions and I had no answers.
39:40
SPEAKER_04: And I think they they like that about me.
39:42
SPEAKER_04: I just I don't know, you know.
39:44
SPEAKER_04: I stumbled upon an example of a converted person who had got who got married to a woman and had had had had a family, and I just kind of got too excited.
39:54
SPEAKER_04: And I don't even have a theology about it, but I was thinking this would come off as an example of what could be for my, and there was clearly some homosexuality students or people struggling with that.
40:08
SPEAKER_04: And so I said, Hey, let's sit down on this Friday and let's listen to one.
40:12
SPEAKER_04: And after that, it completely just dissolved the group, and it's because they had so much feelings about it, and it was very popular right now to have an opinion on it.
40:23
SPEAKER_04: And I was just, I'm gonna break the like the wall right now.
40:26
SPEAKER_04: This is what Steve usually does because he's a therapist.
40:28
SPEAKER_04: If you're a youth worker, don't just get too excited and put a blanket statement out there thinking you know what's happening.
40:36
SPEAKER_04: I'm learning all this stuff about conversion.
40:38
SPEAKER_04: I didn't even know that that's probably what this pastor went through.
40:41
SPEAKER_04: And I don't know if it worked for him, I don't know his end story, but I put it in front of a group of 40 kids without even doing any work, you know, yeah, or hand holding.
40:51
SPEAKER_04: So it's just I like this conversation with you because it's so much more complicated than what our pastors and leaders think.
40:58
SPEAKER_01: Right.
40:59
SPEAKER_04: They think they could just put it out there, yeah.
41:01
SPEAKER_04: And uh it's just so much more gray area than that.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's dangerous, it's so dangerous and irresponsible.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: And CJ, Matt, I'm I'm thank you for being being vulnerable and sharing that and kind of being able to look back at that.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: But I think that that's the dangerous part of this topic.
41:21
SPEAKER_00: And I remember I would meet with Matt and I would be like, This is the least interesting thing about you.
41:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, why does it have to take up so much space in our relationship?
41:30
SPEAKER_00: But it's because we come from a construct where if you don't fit inside the lines, then you have to become like all eyes are on Matt, and he's got to carry this.
41:43
SPEAKER_00: And can he be the one that is the next testimony of God's goodness?
41:48
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, no, Matt, you are that without being attached to any certain outcome.
41:55
SPEAKER_00: And so, CJ, like again, just thank you for sharing that because it is a reminder that when we're not careful, we can do more harm than good.
42:05
SPEAKER_00: And like Matt said, it's good intentioned people, it's not like they're trying to be assholes, they thought they were doing the Lord's work.
42:14
SPEAKER_01: And I think Matt said something that I appreciate, and I want to reiterate it because when I worked with gang members, I used to I used to have this thought, they don't want you, they want more of them.
42:28
SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes those of us that are hetero are kind of like threatened by people that are outside anything.
42:36
SPEAKER_01: They're trans, they're intersex, they're gay, whatever.
42:39
SPEAKER_01: Because it's not us.
42:40
SPEAKER_01: And we want more of us.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: Because it validates us.
42:44
SPEAKER_01: And it's really about us, not about appreciating the them.
42:49
SPEAKER_01: And now, can I tell a story?
42:51
SPEAKER_01: Because I don't know if this relates.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: You may have to edit this whole thing out.
42:54
SPEAKER_01: But I was thinking about this yesterday when I was walking.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: So I have a brother who robbed the gene pool.
43:01
SPEAKER_01: Like, this is all that was left when he was done with it.
43:04
SPEAKER_01: He has a he has a PhD in biomedical physics.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: So if you've ever had any kind of scan of your any kind or any of your family members, he's had his his fingerprints all over him.
43:17
SPEAKER_01: He's like a vice chancellor at UCLA.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: I mean, he's the he's a real deal kind of guy, but he's left-handed.
43:26
SPEAKER_01: And when he was born, and when he started becoming left-handed, they would tape up his left hand, they would tape uh uh a thing into his right hand and teach him how to be right-handed.
43:39
SPEAKER_01: And and I think back about how they were so worried about him being left-handed.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: And now fast forward to all the good he's done in the world.
43:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
43:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think about Matt, and I think if if people were so worried about him being gay, they would miss and have missed all the good, the joy that Tidy's describing, the the whimsy, the the beauty that he's bringing into the world, and now that he's helping people on the other side where he's a therapist, and people are coming into his office every week getting help for so.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: Many things that they had missed because they were worried he was left-handed, like maybe.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and I I love that analogy because we talk about this in our training.
44:28
SPEAKER_00: Left-handed people know something that right-handed people never think about.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: The world is made for right-handed people.
44:37
SPEAKER_00: All day long, left-handed people are adapting, and right-handed people aren't giving it a second thought.
44:42
SPEAKER_00: They're not like having prayer circles and you know, like, and I think that if you're part of any marginalized community, you realize that I'm trying to fit into a dominant culture that I either need to conform to or find safe enough people to be myself with.
44:59
SPEAKER_00: And when I I've not met Matt's partner, but when I first was introduced to him through social media, it was like, okay, this is a guy who's got the whimsy, the play, like, and there's so much healing that happens through relationship.
45:17
SPEAKER_00: And so I don't want to jump ahead and I know we're kind of all over the place, but like being able to find a partner where you can be open with who didn't grow up in the church.
45:30
SPEAKER_00: Does he just look at you with his mouth open sometimes?
45:33
SPEAKER_00: Like, what?
45:36
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
45:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it's funny to uh like go back through these stories with him and see it through fresh eyes because most of the time when I'm telling my story, it's to people that are in the church or have been in the church.
45:52
SPEAKER_02: And so even the simple word of secular feels like a like, yeah, this is our part of our lingo in the like what does secular mean?
46:02
SPEAKER_02: I didn't think that someone could be uh an adult and not know what the word secular meant.
46:07
SPEAKER_02: It's funny and not funny to uh to see things from his lens and realize like, oh, I was very much in uh a closed circle of people that made it difficult.
46:23
SPEAKER_02: Uh somewhere along the line I came across the the name of a possibility model, uh the idea that there is some possibility of uh a future for myself and all my possibilities of what it meant to be gay were very limited.
46:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh I can either be a monk or I can marry a woman or I can be single.
46:46
SPEAKER_02: And people that fell in those uh possibilities, uh hearing their stories and trying to figure out how I can make one of these work for myself.
46:56
SPEAKER_02: And I will say Heidi is hands down an amazing woman that if I were not gay, I would have uh I think we may have found a whole nother life with each other.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
47:09
SPEAKER_02: Um I need background.
47:12
SPEAKER_04: When was this that you guys dated?
47:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'll tell you when we broke up.
47:16
SPEAKER_01: No, tell us when you dated.
47:18
SPEAKER_02: You can get to the 15.
47:21
SPEAKER_02: I had to be uh I had to be 16 before I could start dating.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: And we he had sent me this beautiful book that he made when I turned 17, where he it was like a oh gosh, what do they call it?
47:33
SPEAKER_00: Like you would listen to a tape while you read the book, and then it would be like turn the page, and he put my face on um like Julie Andrews in the middle of the field and the sound of music, and he put his face on Dorothy from the Wizard of Us next.
47:51
SPEAKER_02: I just wish there were signs.
47:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
47:54
SPEAKER_00: We we watched videos together as adults from when we were in high school, and we had one video where my sister dressed up like Elvis Presley and did our wedding.
48:06
SPEAKER_00: And looking back at that video as an adult, like I'm just looking at Matt adoringly, and he's looking at Elvis Presley with the same W eyes.
48:15
SPEAKER_00: That's what we should have known.
48:18
SPEAKER_00: But we tried that's funny.
48:23
SPEAKER_02: We did try, we did try.
48:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, um now do you want to tell us about when you broke up?
48:29
SPEAKER_00: Or well, it's actually I I think it's an important thing for straight people to consider.
48:38
SPEAKER_00: If like I I as an adult looking back, I realized I even felt a tremendous amount of pressure to help Matt.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: And it was probably like two years ago, maybe when we were in Philadelphia and we were in a cafe that was totally crowded, balling our eyes out to each other.
49:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure everybody around us was like, this couple is going to throw it.
49:06
SPEAKER_00: Like overhearing that conversation since I was 16.
49:10
SPEAKER_00: I loved you and you're gay.
49:13
SPEAKER_04: You know, like oh, I wish I was next next to you guys.
49:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was like intense, but so healing.
49:22
SPEAKER_00: I think for me to realize that I couldn't change that part of who you are.
49:30
SPEAKER_00: But grieving that, like honestly grieving that Matt and I couldn't have been something different and letting that go.
49:40
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it seems so silly, but it wasn't.
49:43
SPEAKER_00: It was very painful for me to look back and go, but I I couldn't even change the thing about him that he was so trying so hard to change.
49:54
SPEAKER_00: And I I don't know what that conversation was like for you, but it we joke that that was like our breakup conversation.
50:04
SPEAKER_04: After you got married, after four kids.
50:07
SPEAKER_01: Four kids 26 years later, we finally Heidi's Hattie's having a moment and Matt's staring at some guy in the corner.
50:16
SPEAKER_02: No, I I feel like this is a a pretty significant part.
50:22
SPEAKER_02: Yes, there this was very shitty for me, a very painful experience going through this having this carrot of uh eventually I'll be normal again.
50:35
SPEAKER_02: But one of my bigger pains in life has been the the women that I've heard along the way trying uh to make this work.
50:44
SPEAKER_02: And as with Heidi, I know that uh with most of the girls that I dated, that there is some level of understanding uh cerebrally why this didn't work out.
50:58
SPEAKER_02: Um but there as a therapist, you know there's so much carried in the body and the pain of that rejection, the the weight of trying to help someone fix it and feeling helpless in that.
51:12
SPEAKER_02: Um and honestly, I think it is the first uh thing that allowed me to stop going down this path was just I first saw the pain of the women, the last girl that I dated that uh we had talked about engagement.
51:31
SPEAKER_02: And then six months in I'm just feeling completely uh so overwhelmed by like uh suffocating.
51:42
SPEAKER_02: And it had uh very little to do with her and just about the situation.
51:49
SPEAKER_02: Like I feel suffocated by this character that I'm having to play.
51:53
SPEAKER_02: Um, but how unfair for her to be part of this carrot dangling and like we're working towards together, we will carry this cross together.
52:05
SPEAKER_02: I am fortunate that I did not get married to a woman, but I regularly as a therapist am talking to the men that did go down that path and how much more complex and how much more pain is involved in trying to get into a marriage to make this work and then bringing kids into the picture and having to navigate the pain, their pain when mom and dad can't stay together.
52:32
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you know that's so relatable.
52:35
SPEAKER_00: I like how you put it and it's language that you've given me in my adult life that you would kind of put on a character.
52:42
SPEAKER_00: Can you talk more about that and how that could be translated, I think, into like a lot of different scenarios?
52:49
SPEAKER_02: I do feel like I took on the sense, the the weight, the stole of being the model gay Christian.
52:59
SPEAKER_02: Um I was pretty open with people throughout my journey about what I was struggling with.
53:06
SPEAKER_02: And I felt the pride that people had in me for uh fighting and just a sense that there was something very important about who I was in the church that validated a lot of things for people.
53:25
SPEAKER_02: It felt good.
53:26
SPEAKER_02: It certainly feels good to have people look up to you and think, uh, wow, this this guy's really working hard and like I'm just so proud of the person he's becoming.
53:37
SPEAKER_02: And so that character, I think uh listening to your story, uh Heidi, uh, about being a pastor's wife and what that's like to have that.
53:47
SPEAKER_02: Like there is a a desire for something, uh, a model to look up to, that the mother of the pastor is the model mother, the model wife in a similar but not the same way, just being the gay man uh in the church that is seeming to be thriving and it's an important role that people want uh you to fulfill.
54:11
SPEAKER_02: And then similarly, as I the experience, like there comes a point where like the weight of this character is too much.
54:19
SPEAKER_02: It is I am becoming a hollow shell of myself in an effort to keep this going.
54:27
SPEAKER_02: Uh I am not being authentic with anyone, even with myself.
54:32
SPEAKER_00: Um and so what was it like taking that off?
54:37
SPEAKER_00: Like t tell us about that when you finally were like, I can't do this anymore.
54:42
SPEAKER_02: It was not a eureka moment.
54:44
SPEAKER_02: It was a very painful seeing uh people fall peeling away and falling away from your life.
54:53
SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
54:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it was uh it I wasn't expecting it, and I think looking back, I feel foolish for not expecting it.
55:07
SPEAKER_02: But like to think that my relationship with so many people is dependent on this uh perfect gay image and the moment that I am starting to become free of that is the moment I lose.
55:25
SPEAKER_02: And this was uh the fear the whole time of like oh this is uh this is what happens.
55:33
SPEAKER_02: Uh and it's funny, not funny, sad, like uh to the narrative is by becoming gay that you are leaving the church.
55:49
SPEAKER_02: And I think in uh in a lot of ways I felt like the church community left me that yeah, and not not all uh in a in a shunning way, but just like I it was more of a like I don't have a box for this, what you're going through, and this makes me uncomfy and I can't coexist with this cognitive dissonance, and so I need to remove myself from this, is how I perceive it.
56:21
SPEAKER_01: Um, let me talk to my listeners for a second.
56:25
SPEAKER_01: If your theology has you walking away from somebody because of their sexuality, if your policies have you met walking away from somebody because of their sexuality, something's wrong.
56:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, Jesus said love God, love people, not love God, love your theology, love your policies, love your denomination, love your pastor, love your any of those things.
56:52
SPEAKER_01: And for somebody like Matt, who was a giving, caring, loving part of a community, for people to go, well, you know, now that you're really come out, I gotta walk away, that something is so terribly wrong.
57:11
SPEAKER_01: I think that for all of us to be sort of analytical of that, and also if anything, if people had drawn closer and said, I don't know where we're going, but we're going together.
57:23
SPEAKER_01: And it seems like Heidi had that role in his life for a long time, still does.
57:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, that I feel like that's the most pure kind of love we can have.
57:33
SPEAKER_01: That I don't know where we're headed, but we're going together.
57:37
SPEAKER_01: And I just wish that there was more of that in Matt's life.
57:40
SPEAKER_01: And I wish that I were more like that in so many other people's lives.
57:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was powerful when Matt said I I didn't leave the church, the church left me.
57:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, is it the whole purpose that we're supposed to be drawing people nearer to God?
57:55
SPEAKER_00: Right.
57:55
SPEAKER_00: How is how are we doing that when we're creating such barriers?
58:00
SPEAKER_00: And um when we lost him.
58:04
SPEAKER_00: We lost Matt.
58:06
SPEAKER_00: Oh, there he is.
58:07
SPEAKER_02: Hey Matt.
58:08
SPEAKER_02: Hey, I'm so sorry.
58:10
SPEAKER_02: My uh my battery completely died.
58:13
SPEAKER_02: This is part of my life uh with a agent.
58:17
SPEAKER_00: You might sound a little different.
58:18
SPEAKER_02: I'm back though.
58:19
SPEAKER_02: I sound a little bit different because I'm on a different uh I'm on my computer now.
58:23
SPEAKER_02: You're good section.
58:25
SPEAKER_00: So, Matt, you know our format is what's hurt, what's helped, and where are you headed?
58:29
SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to hear some of what has helped you.
58:33
SPEAKER_02: So it's my um late 20s, early 30s that I was going through this uh significant deconstruction and rebuilding of community, real rebuilding of identity.
58:45
SPEAKER_02: And in those early stages, while I was still in the church, I really resonated with some of the works of like uh Richard Rohr, Peter Ens, and the connecting with some of the language around uh mystery.
59:03
SPEAKER_02: And uh, Peter Enns actually has a book, Sin of Certainty, and I don't remember much about the book, but the concept really resonated of like I think what I was pressing up against was certainty that people that that was what was so hard in the church is it felt like there was a confidence there that wasn't earned of uh certainty of what it w should mean to be a gay man.
59:29
SPEAKER_02: And so I think what helped um partly I discovered in the uh Orthodox Church and partly through uh some Christian leaders uh kind of giving a different perspective of embracing the unknown and the mystery and the messiness of Christianity in the Bible and tradition and teachings.
59:52
SPEAKER_00: It's so funny to me.
59:53
SPEAKER_00: Like Matt comes out to me as gay, and I'm like, cool.
59:57
SPEAKER_00: He comes out to me as converting to Western Orthodoxy, and I'm like, hold on a second.
1:00:03
SPEAKER_00: We need to talk.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_04: I'm coming over right now.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_01: Is there a conversion therapy for that too?
1:00:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you got a sponsor.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_00: There was like a whole thing with that, right?
1:00:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think there's probably a lot of weeds that I could go into that experience, but ultimately I think what helped with the Orthodox Church was there is uh in some branch, some parts of the Orthodox Church, some teachers within, there is a lot of room for mystery, of not needing to have everything neatly defined.
1:00:42
SPEAKER_02: Um that didn't mean that I was included, but at least some other beliefs around Christianity was included.
1:00:50
SPEAKER_02: And I think it opened a door for my system to be okay living as a gray human that didn't cleanly fit in a box.
1:01:02
SPEAKER_02: And so I think that was really important for me is to encounter Christians who could hold space for the unknown and be okay with things being messy and not what they grew up with.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_02: And I think one of the hardest parts of the early years of the church was just how looking back, how little space there was for me to actually share my what was I was experiencing.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_02: It wasn't until my 30s that I started encountering that there were Christians out there that that it was okay for this to not look a specific way, and uh I think my dad honestly was one of them, which was a s maybe a surprise, especially in the how our relationship started, it felt like.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_02: My dad could see how m much effort I put into doing all the right things.
1:02:02
SPEAKER_02: He uh could confidently say that I couldn't have done anything more than what I did and that it didn't work.
1:02:09
SPEAKER_02: And so when I got married, he didn't know what he believed.
1:02:14
SPEAKER_02: I think he still doesn't know exactly what to believe, but he was okay living in the grave that uh I know that this black and white answer of what it means to be gay does not work.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_02: My son tried it, and it's this is not it.
1:02:30
SPEAKER_02: I I valued having space held in that that middle ground that trying to figure out who I was moving forward.
1:02:40
SPEAKER_01: Also, good job, Dad.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, how supportive and inclusive.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_01: And and Matt, thank you.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_01: You've taught us a lot, and I don't feel done, but I I do feel like I love that you brought in the mystery of the faith because I feel like in the church world sometimes we forget that.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_01: I heard a story this week that fits so well and it's just been rattling around in my brain, so I'm gonna tell it.
1:03:03
SPEAKER_01: But it it's attributed to Saint Augustine, but it could be legend, who knows?
1:03:08
SPEAKER_01: That he was walking on a beach on the coast, and there was a kid with a a bucket that had dug a big hole and was running to the ocean with a bucket, pouring into the hole, running to the ocean, pouring into the hole, running the ocean, pouring into the hole.
1:03:23
SPEAKER_01: And as Augustine got closer, just watching this, going, This is madness and says to the kid, What are you doing?
1:03:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to fill the I'm gonna put the ocean over in this hole.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_01: And and Augustine goes, That's crazy.
1:03:36
SPEAKER_01: And the kid says, I think I have a better chance of pouring the ocean into this hole than you have of understanding the complexity of God in your little brain.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_01: And I went, I this it sort of blew my mind to go if if we think we can understand God, then our God is too small.
1:03:58
SPEAKER_01: And I just love that you brought up the mystery of the faith because there are things that we just have to be able to go, I don't know.
1:04:06
SPEAKER_01: And I hope I find out someday.
1:04:08
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
1:04:09
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_01: So when we're talking about what's helped, this uh transition to some kind of orthodoxy seems like a part of it.
1:04:19
SPEAKER_01: Are there other things, other people other than I mean, you don't have to tell us Heidi's amazing, we know that.
1:04:24
SPEAKER_01: But um, are there other things other people?
1:04:28
SPEAKER_01: What what's been part of your journey that you would say has been healing and helpful?
1:04:32
SPEAKER_02: And I can look back at my years in the church.
1:04:36
SPEAKER_02: There there comes a point in processing and grieving that you finally get to a point where you're able to s go look back and see the good.
1:04:44
SPEAKER_02: Like it uh for a while there it was really hard for me to attribute much good to the church uh or to Christians.
1:04:53
SPEAKER_02: And I don't identify, I identify as agnostic is the closest word I can put to it.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_02: But I think the image of an ocean that uh is bigger, unfathomable, bigger than I think that resonates uh with that agnostic theme of like maybe, I don't know, maybe uh but as far as things that have helped, uh I think certainly entering into the mental health field and entering into therapy, having queer therapists holding space for me differently than what had held be uh was held for me before.
1:05:35
SPEAKER_02: Ironically, even in the mental health field, I was starting to realize like this is part of this desire for labels and structure and tidiness is everywhere, including the mental health field.
1:05:49
SPEAKER_02: The look at the DSM and it's like I want to quantify human existence and it needs to follow these three you have to have have these three kit characteristics.
1:06:02
SPEAKER_02: And then I go to workshops and like there are like it feels like church sometimes in the level of this solves this is ever like everything makes sense now, and uh it's exciting at first, like.
1:06:17
SPEAKER_02: Oh, this all makes sense.
1:06:18
SPEAKER_02: Yes, this is why this and this and this.
1:06:20
SPEAKER_02: And then you realize like later, as even this doesn't make sense of anything, that uh there are people that are ready to ostracize people that don't believe in their theory, like like, okay, this is exists all over.
1:06:40
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I I think that was helpful for me to see a very different way that that fundamentalism, that certainty manifests, and I think maybe giving a little bit more allows me to give more grace and context.
1:06:57
SPEAKER_02: Like, this is not a personal thing that happened.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_02: This was not a personal attack to me as Matthew.
1:07:04
SPEAKER_02: This is a human desire to the ocean is fucking scary to stand out and look and not like this is humongous and it's overwhelming, and I would rather be in a smaller place.
1:07:21
SPEAKER_02: Uh, it's just it's scary to sit out there for too long.
1:07:25
SPEAKER_00: And so you know what else you did that like I can see it now, and I don't think I realized it when it was happening.
1:07:34
SPEAKER_00: You created real boundaries to kind of protect the healing path that you were on.
1:07:39
SPEAKER_00: And so to go from Matt who like probably overshared because you were seeking approval to a Matt that was like, now I'm gonna protect some of this stuff.
1:07:50
SPEAKER_00: I was like, uh, hello, are you letting me in?
1:07:53
SPEAKER_00: And you were like, No, I'm not.
1:07:55
SPEAKER_00: And I had to sit with that and be okay with that and trust that that you were on your healing journey and that you weren't gonna invite everybody into this story.
1:08:04
SPEAKER_00: And not because you didn't love those people, but because you had to get with yourself to know who you were before you started offering those parts of yourself to people.
1:08:17
SPEAKER_00: And through that, I've watched you build this really great community of kind of like the island of Mesmith toys, right?
1:08:27
SPEAKER_00: Like you've got this eclectic group of people who who really love you and um, but you worked really hard for that.
1:08:35
SPEAKER_00: Like I think that in all of your yearning towards whatever you thought wholeness was, in some like different way, you were you were creating that w without controlling it anymore.
1:08:50
SPEAKER_00: That's the mystery.
1:08:51
SPEAKER_00: You kind of took your hands off the wheel and found your your space.
1:08:56
SPEAKER_00: And it's been beautiful to witness.
1:08:59
SPEAKER_02: At first, it's scary entering into the wilderness.
1:09:03
SPEAKER_02: And where I'm heading is feels like entering into a territory of like how much pleasure can be found in constant discovery and exploration, and that the unknown is actually a really lovely thing.
1:09:18
SPEAKER_02: Like I I get to learn constantly and I get to discover my partner is uh a plant and animal nerd, and every day is telling me random facts.
1:09:29
SPEAKER_02: Uh and actually one of the one of the things that uh has come up that felt so relevant is uh we he he brought home uh hermit crabs the other day.
1:09:42
SPEAKER_02: And hermit crabs like they go into shells, uh they find empty shells and they stay in those shells to protect themselves, but at some point they have to leave that shell to grow and move on to another shell, and it feels uh like in some ways a beautiful metaphor for how I feel like I I actually did thrive for a while in the Christian community that I grew up in, and it was a beautiful, safe place, and I saw like I can look back and say, like that was really a nice way to grow up.
1:10:23
SPEAKER_02: I needed that feeling of safety.
1:10:25
SPEAKER_02: And then there came a point where I had to leave, and I junior high and public school and secular world was messy finding these shells along the way, and I think even what you're sharing, Heidi, it feels like of finding a a space of I I need to be careful of who I let into my world at this specific moment of healing because I I need to figure out who I am apart from of the beliefs of all the people that I grew up with.
1:10:58
SPEAKER_02: And and then to realize like, and even that's small and limited.
1:11:05
SPEAKER_02: I personally don't feel like I want to live a life without Christians or without people who identify uh with the church.
1:11:15
SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's important for me to be able to have relationships with people that within the church setting that I can't stay in this tidy, like all Christians are bad, or uh Christianity is a complete shit show.
1:11:35
SPEAKER_02: It's it's a it is a limited belief within itself that's like I don't know if that serves me anymore to stay there.
1:11:42
SPEAKER_02: Um yeah.
1:11:44
SPEAKER_01: Matt, um, thank you for that.
1:11:46
SPEAKER_01: And I realize you give people advice for a living and we're getting a freebie today, but what what do you want to say to people in our audience?
1:11:55
SPEAKER_01: You know, whether they're figuring out how to be gay in their world or whether they're figuring out how to be fill in the blank in their world.
1:12:04
SPEAKER_01: What what can you tell us about your journey that you want other people to know?
1:12:09
SPEAKER_02: I feel like there's two things that come to mind.
1:12:12
SPEAKER_02: One for the people that are in that journey, feeling like an outsider, of letting this process be messy.
1:12:21
SPEAKER_02: Um the it is not a straight line, and there are days where it feels like you don't know where to go, and some days that you feel like you go back to old relationships, uh, and then other days where you feel like you have to rebuild your life, and it is it is just a messy path without a map, that it is okay to wander and to not know.
1:12:50
SPEAKER_02: And it is just part of that healing process to uh sit in that that wilderness.
1:12:59
SPEAKER_02: Um I think for people that are within the church that want to show up for those that have uh felt like outsiders.
1:13:11
SPEAKER_02: I think it's just being aware of what beliefs do I hold about people groups that I haven't talked to.
1:13:19
SPEAKER_02: And I think for me it seems like the trans community feels like the biggest constant.
1:13:28
SPEAKER_02: I keep encountering this, like, wow, you all have such strong beliefs about uh the trans community, and it doesn't feel like you have uh uh taken even an hour of time to sit and talk to a trans person.
1:13:44
SPEAKER_02: And what does that mean to have a belief about a group of people that you've never met?
1:13:51
SPEAKER_02: And it just there has to be an awareness of like I can't say that I know with certainty this is true or this is not true in this place of where I haven't even taken the time to listen to multiple perspectives, which kind of feels like CJ, what you were sharing about the talking to your youth group, like that realization, like okay, this was one story of one gay man, um and maybe a wish that I had spent more time encountering other stories.
1:14:28
SPEAKER_04: Totally.
1:14:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
1:14:30
SPEAKER_01: That was great.
1:14:30
SPEAKER_01: So good.
1:14:31
SPEAKER_00: A messy path without a map.
1:14:33
SPEAKER_00: I wrote that down.
1:14:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a book.
1:14:35
SPEAKER_01: That's that's the book title.
1:14:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
1:14:39
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna get that rights to that title here in a minute.
1:14:43
SPEAKER_01: Jeez.
1:14:45
SPEAKER_01: Matt, thank you for being here.
1:14:47
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:14:47
SPEAKER_01: This has been, I mean, I I don't know about our listeners, but I feel like I'm gonna walk away and just be thinking about this conversation and and rattling around in my brain.
1:14:59
SPEAKER_01: And so I appreciate that and I appreciate your vulnerability.
1:15:03
SPEAKER_01: And I'm I know that people are gonna be listening, going, how do I get a hold of that guy?
1:15:09
SPEAKER_01: And first of all, he's taken.
1:15:11
SPEAKER_01: Second of all, uh, he does have a practice in Springfield, Missouri.
1:15:16
SPEAKER_01: Tell us a little bit about how, if people want to get some help from you or your agency, how do we do that?
1:15:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I uh my practice is called the Green Room Counseling Services, and my website's pretty easy to find.
1:15:31
SPEAKER_02: You can find me on Psychology Today.
1:15:33
SPEAKER_02: Uh so Matt Matthew Scott Lee is my name and Green Room Counseling Services and all that information you should be able to find on a website.
1:15:43
SPEAKER_02: I do work exclusively with adult clients and uh largely through traumatic experiences and LGBTQ clients.
1:15:51
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, if you live in Missouri and are looking for a therapist, happy to chat with you.
1:15:57
SPEAKER_01: Also, for those that are looking for things like that, I know he's trained in EMDR.
1:16:02
SPEAKER_01: He has a lot of crisis experience, a lot of traumatic experience.
1:16:06
SPEAKER_01: I I looked up his website.
1:16:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh, as somebody who's a therapist, people ask me all the time who would you go to?
1:16:13
SPEAKER_01: I would go to Matt.
1:16:15
SPEAKER_01: Like if I lived in Missouri and I needed a therapist, which I do regularly, I would go to Matt.
1:16:21
SPEAKER_01: We know.
1:16:23
SPEAKER_01: Because Matt has such a kind, warm, and welcoming soul.
1:16:27
SPEAKER_01: But on this show, I've talked about the difference between competent and Christian, whether you uh, you know, resonate with his mysterious faith or agnosticism or not.
1:16:39
SPEAKER_01: Competent is what you want more than anything.
1:16:42
SPEAKER_01: And I would go to Matt.
1:16:44
SPEAKER_01: I promise you that.
1:16:45
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:16:46
SPEAKER_00: Matt, I have I have loved you in every chapter of your life.
1:16:51
SPEAKER_00: And to try and capture in a short period of time the depth and breadth of all that you've been through.
1:16:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we could have probably talked for another five hours and still only scratch the surface.
1:17:04
SPEAKER_00: So thank you for taking the time to just think thoughtfully through this.
1:17:08
SPEAKER_00: And um one thing that has always been true of you since you were a little boy, you have a responsibility to share your message, whatever that is, carefully and thoughtfully.
1:17:22
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's probably one of my favorite things about who you are.
1:17:25
SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
1:17:27
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for the opportunity.
1:17:29
SPEAKER_01: Matt, thank you.
1:17:29
SPEAKER_01: And I can't thank you enough.
1:17:31
SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad that um I got to see you again.
1:17:34
SPEAKER_01: And if you get random texts from me from time to time, just know I need therapy and I'm psychotic and and you know, I'm in the DSM on every page.
1:17:45
SPEAKER_01: So like example, see, Steve.
1:17:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you so much.
1:17:51
SPEAKER_02: I appreciate this opportunity and great to connect with you all in this way.
1:17:55
SPEAKER_02: And Heidi, we need to get to Las Vegas to watch the Wizard of Oz.
1:18:02
SPEAKER_04: Oh, in the dome.
1:18:03
SPEAKER_00: That's our dream.
1:18:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:18:05
SPEAKER_01: Okay, when you go to Las Vegas, I will pay for your tickets to go see Mac King.
1:18:11
SPEAKER_01: Mac King is the best daytime show in Vegas forever.
1:18:15
SPEAKER_01: He's magic.
1:18:16
SPEAKER_01: He's a magician who's really good at magic, but he's the funniest, like he could just be a stand-up comedian.
1:18:23
SPEAKER_01: He's fantastic.
1:18:24
SPEAKER_01: In fact, I'm a magic nerd.
1:18:26
SPEAKER_01: Most magicians, he's their favorite because he just does ridiculous stuff and it's family friendly.
1:18:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh Steve, Matthew free.
1:18:37
SPEAKER_00: I know.
1:18:39
SPEAKER_02: Oh Steve.
1:18:40
SPEAKER_00: I heard Heidi, did you hear like a all expense paid trip to I heard Matt is of my book.
1:18:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:18:51
SPEAKER_00: Anywhere we go, Matt's gonna pack sandwiches.
1:18:54
SPEAKER_00: If we go to a restaurant and the breadsticks are free, Heidi, you're putting them in your purse.
1:18:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm telling you.
1:19:00
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
1:19:02
SPEAKER_04: Cool.
1:19:02
SPEAKER_02: All right, good to see you.
1:19:04
SPEAKER_04: Love you.
1:19:04
SPEAKER_04: Thanks, Matt.
1:19:05
SPEAKER_04: Nice meeting you.
1:19:06
SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Matt.
1:19:06
SPEAKER_02: Love you, Hetty.
1:19:07
SPEAKER_02: Good to see you.
1:19:08
SPEAKER_04: Bye.
1:19:08
SPEAKER_01: Bye-bye.
1:19:14
unknown: Okay, all right.
1:19:15
SPEAKER_01: That was uh wow, Matt.
1:19:18
SPEAKER_01: All right, so let's go around the room.
1:19:20
SPEAKER_01: What did you learn today?
1:19:22
SPEAKER_04: Um, one, I didn't know that much in depth of conversion therapy stuff.
1:19:27
SPEAKER_04: So I'm so thankful.
1:19:28
SPEAKER_04: But also the image of someone having to grieve every day as people left your life is something like sometimes I grieve, you know, from a death one time in a couple years.
1:19:40
SPEAKER_04: But that just him saying that was like there, you know, people are going through a lot.
1:19:44
SPEAKER_04: You you should probably be more sensitive of that.
1:19:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I'm just sitting with so much of it.
1:19:50
SPEAKER_00: I think that what I appreciated most about what he said was towards the end when he said it's a messy path without a map, which I think is relatable to so many people.
1:19:59
SPEAKER_00: We just feel like we're kind of lost out in the world, finding our way, and and when we find the the right people who will listen to our experiences and hear our stories, that that's when we find real connection inside or outside of the church.
1:20:15
SPEAKER_01: That's so good.
1:20:16
SPEAKER_01: How about you, Steve?
1:20:17
SPEAKER_01: I learned that no matter what your theory is about why someone is different, no matter what your theology is about why somebody's different, that really what we're doing, we're called to love them.
1:20:30
SPEAKER_01: And it's easy to talk about theology, and you should probably do that over coffee with your best friend.
1:20:36
SPEAKER_01: But really to be there, show up and just love people.
1:20:39
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's what we're all called to do.
1:20:42
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
1:20:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:20:43
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Matt.
1:20:44
SPEAKER_01: So good.
1:20:45
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Matt.
1:20:45
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Matt.
1:20:46
SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
1:20:47
SPEAKER_01: We'll see you next on Faith Rehab.
1:20:51
SPEAKER_01: Be blessed.
1:20:52
SPEAKER_01: Bye.