Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / NT ICAC Michael Riches provides an update on ongoing investigations, funding and recruitment challenges within the agency

Transcript

NT ICAC Michael Riches provides an update on ongoing investigations, funding and recruitment challenges within the agency · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Last week, the Northern Territory iy CACK advised that there
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: would be a Whistleblowers Night, a couple of hours set
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: aside for territorians to call through and let the iy
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: CAC know about any concerns that they may have well
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: around corruption and other issues. It seemed like a pretty
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: unprecedented thing to do. I've never heard of something like
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: this happening before. It may well have. But joining me
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: in the studio is the Northern Territory's i CAAC Commissioner,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Michael Richards. Good morning to.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: You, morning, Cody, and thanks very much for having me on.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us this morning now, Commissioner,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: why was the decision made to have this whistle blowers
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: night for people to call in?
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: In January of this year, I announced a project that
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: I'd be conducting in respective in respective protection of whistle
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: blowers and really to get a sense of how as
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: a territory we treat whistleblowers and what frameworks and processes
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: are in place to to manage whistleblower disc disclosures and
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: how they're protected. And I thought it was important to
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: set aside some time to actually hear from people themselves
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: about their experiences making disclosures within government agencies, within local government,
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: within public administration generally, and of course I also understood
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: the fact that by its very nature, whistleblowers are often
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: quite hesitant to come forward, hesitant to speak about matters,
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: and to expect someone to speak to me during business hours.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: I thought was a bit was going to be a
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: bit was going to be too much of a disk.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: So I spoke to my staff and I asked my
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: staff to volunteer to stay back one evening, and we
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: did that last Thursday night. There was eight of us
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: there and in that to our period we had twenty
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: three calls, which was quite a significant number, and there
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: were probably a number of people that tried to get
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: through but couldn't because for a period there all of
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: us were on calls. So if there were people who
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: tried to get through that couldn't, I do apologize. What's
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: clear to me is that there is a need for
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: that to continue, and I've already spoken to my staff
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: and we will be doing that regularly, probably well. At
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: this stage, I expect that we'll do two evenings a
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: month opening up the phones, opening up resources after ours,
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: so that if there are people that want to bring
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: matters to our attention, but they're not comfortable doing so
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: during workhouse, then there's that ability to do so. And
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: in terms of when we do that, then we'll put
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: all that information on our website so people are aware
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: when those sessions will occur.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, goodness made that seems like a large volume of calls.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, twenty three calls in the evening. But also
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: the fact that now you're looking at having two evenings
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: a month from those calls that you received, are there
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: things that need to seriously be followed up?
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: So out of the twenty three calls, and Beary in mind,
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: of course, this was the primary purpose was to obtain
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: submissions from people about the Whistleworld project, as opposed to
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: reporting matters to me.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: But I was very happy to take reports.
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: Out of those twenty three calls, I think we had
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: eight reports, and there remainder what I would call submissions
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: to the project. And having only been going for a
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: short period of time the project was only announced in January,
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: already we've got more than sixty I think submissions in
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: respect of the whistleblower projects. So I'm very pleased about that.
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: I must say, some of the submissions I've read makes some.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: Difficult reading in what sense obviously I won't go into
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: too much detail, but.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: Accepting on face value the truth of the submissions, there's
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: certainly been a number of occasions where people have suffered
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: some quite significant adverse effects as a result of coming
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: forward and calling out what I would consider to be
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: improper behavior within government agencies. And that's certainly a very
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: common theme that's coming through in the submissions, and that's
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: a common theme that we see in research that's conducted
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: throughout Australia. We know that the research tells us that
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: the two primary reasons that people don't come forward even.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: Though they know that there's wrongdoing is.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: First fear of retaliation, fear of some repercussion for themselves,
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: and second a genuine feeling that there's no point that
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: nothing will happen. I mean, that's terrible, it is, it
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: is very troubling, and as I say, the Northern Territory
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: is no often in that respects It's known worldwide actually
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: that they are the two primary issues. But in my mind,
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: what do we do about it? And how is how
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: is it that we can reduce people's fear of speaking
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: up and how can we ensure that when action does
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: need to be taken, that it is taken it is
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: taken appropriately. And that's really that the purpose of the
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: project is for me to have a much better understanding
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: of what goes into the Northern Territory, because one of
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: my statutory functions is to issue directions in respect of
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: how public bodies deal with what are called protected persons
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: or I'll just refer to them as whistleblowers, and to
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: prepare guidelines to set out god sidelines dealing with frameworks
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: that agencies should have in place to prevent retaliation. So
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: all of this is geared towards me better educating myself
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: in order that I am able to put out the
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: best and most appropriate directions and guidelines that I can Now.
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: I know before that Whistleblowers Night was held, somebody had
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: been in contact with us and had said, oh, Katie,
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: how do we know we're not going to be recorded,
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: or how do we know that we can genuinely call
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: through and that we're not going to wind up in
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: a situation where there is reprisal or where there's any
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: concern for them down the track?
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: And look, it is it's an incredibly.
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: Difficult conversation to have with people, and I've sat across
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: the table from people that have quite obviously terrified about
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: coming forward, terrified about being identified, very fearful about the
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: personal repercussions, but you know, incredibly braver them to nevertheless
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: still come forward and be willing to call out what
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: they see is as wrongdoing. There are protections offered under
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: the k Act and under my legislation, if a person
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: comes forward and reports to me in accordance with say
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: a mandatory reporting direction that I've issued, then a person
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: does have some protections. Those protections include immunity from civil, criminal,
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: disciplinary liability, so a person couldn't be subject determination because
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: they provide an information to me. And it's also a
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: criminal offense under the k Act for a person to
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: engage in retaliation against a person because I've made that disclosure.
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: What there isn't in the ICIC Act, and it's something
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: that I've raised in respect of legislative change, is there's
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: no statutory protection of the identity of a whistlebloer. And
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: that's something that I think is a gap in the legislation.
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: It's something that's in other in legislation and other jurisdictions,
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: and so I've asked for there to be an amendment
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: so that the identity of a whistleblower is protected by
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: legislation and can only be disclosed in fairly limited circumstances,
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: which I hope will add a sense of reassurance to
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: people who come forward that there are protections in placeful.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's very important, Michael. When can we
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: expect that next night to take place?
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: Well, I will finish off reviewing all the material we've
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: got so far.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: I'd hope that we'll.
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: Have another couple of nights in March, Okay, but I'll
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: put that up on the ICAQ website if so, If
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: people are interested and keep an eye on the ICAC
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: website and the next day will be will be put
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: on that site.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely let us know. We'll be keen to let
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: our listeners know. Now. There was a report release last
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: week in relation to reports of improper conduct. It stated
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: that they are your single biggest information source. How many
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: of those reports have you received over the last year.
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: So over the last year, I don't have the number
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: in front of me, but since we started in November
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: twenty eighteen up to the end of last year close
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: to fifteen hundred reports. We on average get three hundred
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: to four hundred reports in a year. I might say
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: that since the release of that report that we're talking about,
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: I think we've had quite a spike in the last
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: week of reports being.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: Made, which is well, I.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: Think it's terrific that when something comes out from my offers,
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: it sparks interest, it sparks perhaps a reminder amongst people
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: of their obligations to report, and I think the content
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: of the report itself raises a lot of questions in
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: people's minds as to how does this affect my agency?
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: What do my agency stats say? You know, is this
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: reflective of what I think is going on in the agency?
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: Could there be under reporting? And that was one of
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: the purposes of putting the report out was to spark
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: those conversations with the agencies, get the agencies to have
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: a look at their own data and have a conversation
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: within their agencies about how that data reflects what they
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: perceive within their agency.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: How many of those reports then lead to investigations by your.
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: Office very small percentage. There's a few reasons for that.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: But let me talk about the various options that are
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: available to me. When a report's made, the report is assessed,
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: and it's assessed not against what I think is right
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: or wrong, or not against anyone else's it's assessed against
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: the KAC Act, and it's a sense against the criteria
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: that are set out in the k Act. And I
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: have a number of options available to me. The first
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: is that I can determine to take no action. Now,
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: I may take no action because it's clear that the
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: matter has already been investigated, and it's not uncommon for
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: people who might be unhappy with the outcome of a
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: previous investigation to report the matter to me. And I
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: have to consider carefully whether or not there's a public
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: interest in me going and having another look at something
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: that someone's already done.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: It may be that the material that's provided simply doesn't
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: raise an issue of improper conduct under the legislation. And
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: that's not to dismiss then concerns that the person has
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: or the very real grievance that the person feels. But
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: there are a number of occasions where it simply doesn't
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: meet the criteria.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: I also receive.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: Reports about agencies that don't fall within my jurisdiction so
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: I might receive reports about Commonwealth agencies or private companies
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: or the like.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Now they are not within my jurisdiction.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: They're not matters that I can address, But where possible,
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: I'll invite that person to contact who I consider might
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: be the relevant body in those circumstances. So there's a
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: range of reasons I might decide to take no further action.
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: I can also refer matters to other agencies.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: And the ch ACT is.
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: Very much structured on the basis that my investigative focus
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: should be on corrupt conduct and the very serious improper conduct.
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: The Act is premised on the basis that in most
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: cases where we're talking about lower les matters, unsatisfactory conduct, misconduct,
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: then they are matters that will be dealt with by
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: the relevant agency, so the Department or the Council or whatever.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: So I have the power and I regularly refer matters
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: to those agencies to deal with. Now, I know that
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: that creates some concerns for people, people who might be
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: concerned that what I'm doing is referring a matter back
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: to the very agency about which they've complained.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: That is the way the ch Actor is structured, and
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: that is the way.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: I operate because of the k Act, but also the
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: very simple reality that I don't have the resources to
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: be able to look at every single matter of the COUST.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Is the Act structured in the way that it needs
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: to be or does there need to be some change?
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: Look, I think there's a number of changes that could
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: be made to the Act, and I think I first
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: raised changes back in August twenty twenty one, only a
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: few weeks after I started, because I could see see
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: some things that needed to be changed, and there has
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: been a view Conductor. I'm aware that the government is
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: working on a bill to make those amendments. I generally
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: try not to express publicly views about matters of policy.
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: I think that's matters for Parliament, but I think it's
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: always worthwhile having a good understanding not only of the
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: work I do, but the work that all of the
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: integrity agencies do in the Northern Territory, to ensure that
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: we're all properly resourced, that we're not duplicating any of
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: any of any of our work, and they're all functioning
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: as well as.
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: We possibly can.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Now. I do know that last week in Parliament, the
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: Member for goid Kisi Epuric had called for the Northern
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Territory government to release that independent report which has been
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: conducted as you just touched on there, and for the
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: release of its draft exposure amendments. I mean, is it
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: important for us to know what is sort of going
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: on with this and what is in there? Do you think?
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Look, I won't express a view about that. That's a
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: matter for parliament.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: And politicians and I try to stay away from that sphere.
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: My interest is ensuring that the Act allows me to
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: operate the way I think it needs to operate and
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: without some of the barriers that probably present themselves at
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: the moment now.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Last year, one of those barriers may actually be the
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: fact I know that you'd revealed in your annual report
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: that you'd close numerous investigations due to capacity constraints after
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: taking on the role. You also warned that ongoing budget
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: restrictions or reductions would inevitably reduce your ability to tackle
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: improper conduct in the public sector. How is that tracking?
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: How is that funding tracking? And do you have what
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: you need to to be able to do your job?
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: So I'll answer it in this way.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: In the end, I will I will structure my work
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: and I will take on as much work as my
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: resources will allow. As it stands, the government determines my resources,
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: and that's that's the matter for the government to determine.
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: The first year that I commenced the budget was I
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: think in the order of six point nine million. This
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: financial year, we're operating on a budget of five point
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: five million, and come one July will take a further
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: five five hundred and sixty thousand dollars reduction in our budget,
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: so we'll be down to I think four point nine million.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: Now, I'm not.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: Here to complain or winge about the budget because budget
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: is not the only issue. The other issue I'm facing
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: and has been a significant challenge, is actually attracting suitable staff,
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: and particularly in our operations field. So for the last
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: twelve months, for example, I've been operating with less than
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: half of the number of investigators that I'm that I
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: got the budget for.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: And that's not through of trying to find investigators.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: We've gone out a number of times, but we are
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: having a lot of difficulty attracting suitable people, which.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Gives me the opportunity to do a little plug.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: We're going to do a fairly significant recruitment drive very
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: soon and very keen to hear from people who are accountants, lawyers, auditors,
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: people who are really interested in working in what is
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: an incredibly challenging and interesting space investigating serious impropriety in
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: public administration. So anyone who does have that interest, does
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: have that forensic mindset and that background, then will be
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: going out very soon to fill a number of positions,
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: and I'm hoping we can get some good support there.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Commissioner, I know that there probably isn't a lot that
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: you can say in relation to your predecessor. However, there
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: are some in the community really questioning the effectiveness of
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: the ikak as a result of some of the previous
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: work which was undertaken. Has it been difficult to step
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: into that position, the one that you're in now and
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: rectify some of those issues, Katie.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: I've taken the approach since I started that I'm quite
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: reluctant to comment about matters that occurred before my time.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: I think it's fair to say it's probably not what
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: I was expecting when I first started, and probably the
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: plans I had in my own mind about the first
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: six to twelve months.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: In a sense, we're thrown out the window.
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: So there's been a lot of focus for me, at
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: least on working from the inside out, and that is
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: really focusing on getting our processes right, getting our practices right,
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: having the right mindset within the organization in order to
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: when my five year term is complete, I walk away
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: and there is a very well established, high performing, outstanding
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: organization with a terrific group of staff who understand the job,
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: understand how to do the job correctly and fairly, and
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: are able to discharge all of the different statutory responsibilities appropriately.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: Now I appreciate that for some that's a frustrating period because.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: You know, you might not be seeing as much coming
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: out of.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: The office as people would hope. And I can assure
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: people there's no one more frustrated than me. I do
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: get frustrated about the time it takes for me and
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: my staff to complete things, but in the end, I
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: will always make sure that things are done properly and fairly,
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: and I think that is the way to build trust.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Over time Commissioner. There had been reports, obviously of what
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: some would deem to be not the conduct that they
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: would have expected of the EYEKAC under the previous commissioner,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: people being recorded without being notified have you taken action
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: to ensure that that kind of thing is not happening
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: any longer so that people can actually contact the Eye
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: Kak they can be rest assured that things are operating
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: in the way that they should be.
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: And the answer is yes, I've taken steps. Internally, I
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: have I have an agreement with the Inspector of the
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: Independent Inspector that the only time someone will be recorded
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: will be in accordance with a with a warrant issued
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: by the Supreme Court, or where I have given my
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: own personal written consent, and that written consent will be
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: provided to the inspector so that there's a there's some
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: oversight there. I can say that since I started, I've
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: never given written consent, so so people can be assured
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: that that conduct of that kind isn't and white occur.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Now. I know in recent weeks we have had many
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: concerns raised, well, some pretty high profile concerns raised that
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: reports have been provided to your office. The Independent Member
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: for Aura lun for example, Robert Late, said that she'd
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: referred to referred the Attorney General to your office. Is
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: that something you're able to confirm?
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: No, I won't. I won't.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: Confirm for this reason, what I don't want to do
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: is set a precedent. If a person in a public
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: position states publicly that I'm doing something, then in a sense,
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: I'm then compelled to confirm it. I don't think that's
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: an appropriate way for my office to operate, So I
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: simply won't express any view about that particular matter.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: But can I say this.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: In the investigations I'm conducting, and you asked before, I
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: have fifteen investigations ongoing at the moment. In the investigations
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: that I conduct, almost in every case, the first the
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: early stages of an investigation are done covertly. They're done
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: in a manner in a way to en or protection
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: of the integrity of the evidence, to ensure that people
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: are not scared off from coming forward because there's been
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: public communication about a matter, and to ensure that there's
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: no loss, destruction.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Or tampering with evidence that might be available.
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: Now, I'm not suggesting anything in particular in respect of
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: any particular matter. However, if it then becomes publicly known
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: before I've even had a chance to consider it, then
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: my big concern is about the integrity of any action
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: that I later later take.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: So I guess it's just a.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: Word of encouragement to people to just think carefully about
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: the potential ramifications in terms of my ability to discharge
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: my duties by making statements about what I may or
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: may not be, what I may or may not.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: Have before me.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Well, Commissioner, we are going to have to leave it there.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: I was going to ask you whether you're investigating a
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: couple of other matters, but I can see based on
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: what you've said that I'm not going to get much
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: information there, which I think is entirely fair enough. You know,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: it means that you're able to do your job, which
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: I respect. I do just want to ask, though, to
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: anybody out there listening this morning who maybe did lose
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: some confidence in the operations of the i CAC and
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: and you know, the iy casability in recent years. I mean,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: what would you say to anybody that is feeling, you know,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: as though they're a little bit disillusioned with the work
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: that the iy CAAC can do.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: Well, what I would say is that.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: I guess I'm a different person. I can say I
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: have a phenomenal group of people working with me. There's
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: been a lot of turnover in the last eighteen months,
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: but I have a phenomenal group. I have a formidable
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: executive director who's my second in charge, and outstanding group
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: of directors and a terrific team. We all understand what
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: our job is and the limits of that job, and
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: we're getting on with it. We're working incredibly hard, and
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: I hope that over time people will see that what
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: we're doing is important and see that what comes out
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: of the office is fair, is done fairly and appropriately
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: and has the public interest at heart. So I appreciate
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: that may take some time, but I'm confident that we'll
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: get there.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, we've got messages coming through. I know that
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: people are asking questions like where is the investigation at
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: in terms of the charges or the charging around.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Constable Zachary Rolf.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Again, I can tell based on what you've said to
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: me just a moment ago, when I'd ask the question
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: about the independent member for our lun that I'm probably
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: not going to get much information there.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: Well. I mean that was a matter that I made
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: a public statement about the time that I commenced, because
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: there are a whole range of assertions being made and
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: there didn't appear to be anyone who was putting their
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: hand up to say.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: That I'll look at these.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: So I decided to investigate a number of matters, and
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: that investigation is ongoing, coming close to a completion. But
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: in that respect, I must be very mindful of the
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: fact that there is still a coronial inquest going on,
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: and I must ensure that anything I do does not
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: have any prejudiceship prejudicial impact upon that process.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Well, Northern Territory KAC Commissioner, Michael Riches, I really appreciate
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: you taking quite a bit of your time out this
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: morning to have a chat with me and my listeners.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much for coming in no trouble, Thanks
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: very much, Thank you,