Latest / 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project / Pam Sherman: Authenticity Isn’t Enough — Identity, Leadership & the Believability Gap

Transcript

Pam Sherman: Authenticity Isn’t Enough — Identity, Leadership & the Believability Gap · 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project

• Paige Williams: Welcome to One Hundred Stories the Narrative Intelligence Project. I'm your host, Paige Williams. Come along with me as I build the emerging field of narrative intelligence by learning from one hundred thinkers, creators, researchers, leaders, people whose lives have been shaped by profound change. Together we are exploring a question at the center of how we become who we are. How malleable are the stories we live by, and what does it take to change one? What I learned through this series will help shape the field of narrative intelligence and the foundational book that I'm writing about it, this. is one hundred stories. Today I am speaking with Pam Sherman. She is the author of Play You the Role of a Lifetime. She's an actor, writer, leadership consultant, and the most important part is a recovering lawyer. We're gonna find out more about that. And Pam's mission right now and Passion in Life is to be a Sherpa guide for her clients, to help them recognize their own narrative. And so I'm so excited to have you, Pam, on 100 Stories to talk about narrative. And I'd love to start with tell me about the work that's most Shaped how you see yourself in the world. Sherman: That is such a interesting question because I think the work that's shaped how I see myself in the world is from being an actor. It's watching other great actors take me on a journey that I want to sit with and learn from and be curious about and feel. So you know, the work I do, it's such a counterintuitive concept that you could use acting skills to be more believable to yourself and to others. But there's no question when I sit watching an incredible performance that feels true, that that I believe that. I don't believe that we're on a journey of disbelief as an audience member. In the best sense, we're on an audience a journey of belief, of investing our time and energy into that storytelling. that can change us for having sat through it and experienced it. Paige Williams: Tell me about a transformational moment in your life where you were living one way and you went, and then it shifted. Sherman: Well, I call it the story of my ill-fitting suit. and it literally was actual ill-fitting fitting suit, lots of shoulder pads. Paige Williams: Yeah. Sherman: I had subs put away my childhood dream of being an actor and decided to go to law school because I thought it would be just like being an a lawyer on TV, but it's not at all like that. And I I really felt uncomfortable in my own skin and you know, I thought it would make me smarter. And it was mind-numbingly dull and it was also very contentious. And I didn't feel like I could be as creative as I wanted to be. I wasn't I I just all of a sudden I just was like diminished. My whole body felt smaller, despite the you know, the blind backer, you know, shoulder pads on the suit. And I one day was like lying on the floor of my office. crying silently at the ceiling and a partner walked in and said, you know, there's this this show going on. Why don't you why don't you go buy a ticket to it? I think you'll think it's fun. He was also a he had led a double life as a folk singer. And I I unbeknownst to him, I went down and I auditioned for the show. And and then I decided to go back and take an acting class. And like in that acting class I was like, I remember actors are an incredible collaborative troop of people. They are generous. They're listeners. They they give themselves over to a leader in a in a very willing and open way, aka a director. And all of that for me was like, wait a minute, that's who I really am. And that openness of building a character, like creating a backstory and understanding that character and understanding the through line of my character in a script. And then doing it in the moment in a rehearsal room. I started walking back into the office, like standing up straighter and taller, and I was more creative in my and I I I one client said, When did you make partner? I'm like, another partner. Like it just changed everything about how I felt about myself, but more important, how I could serve those people I wanted to make a difference for. And I call those your audiences, all the audiences that we have in our life. And it was a pivotal moment for me. And then a funny thing happened on the way to my secure profession, my law firm went out of business, and I'm like, I'm out. And I became a full-time working actor. And that led me on the path to where I am now because I started helping other people use acting skills to be more believable to themselves and to create a a golden thread of connection to all their audiences. Paige Williams: So tell me about that. About that piece of how you see narrative to help people transform through acting. That's so fascinating to me. Sherman: Well, it's interesting. I did a l everything I do with my clients I did with myself. And it was very, you know, when you define yourself in one way, I'll never forget the day the law firm closed down and I was lying on the floor holding a stapler. I can show it to you, I still have it because I stole it from them. and and I you know, this stapler has traveled all over with me, and a very nice leather bat you know, briefcase in one hand and And and I was like, now what? Now what am I gonna do? but I had defined myself by the trappings of that lawyer role. And I, you know, in making that leap to being an actor, I had to rebuild myself and be willing to not know what was gonna come next, keep trying for other jobs, right? I mean it's it's kind of like the narrative of most people in a corporation. Right, you're you know, you're trying to move up the ladder, you're looking for the next thing, you're trying to grow. But mine happened because I got kicked out the door, the door shut behind me. And it was the best thing that ever in hindsight, narrative can change and it's can be the best thing that ever happened to you. And and then it as I went on the journey of being an actor on stage and learning the skills, doing all that work of going back and taking classes and, you know, voice and body language and and really sort of tearing myself down to build myself back up again, I realize this could be useful to so many people in so many different ways. and when asked to come and teach a class at the Department of Justice to antitrust lawyers. I thought it was so funny. I remember the woman, this is narrative, right? I remember the woman saying, Can you help make my lawyers more interesting? And then I maybe she said that. I'm like, no, they're antitrust lawyers. They're not interesting at all. But I started thinking about like, wouldn't it be fun if we got them to do improv to tell a story? Because what's the job of a great lawyer? It's to tell a story to the decision maker in order to influence them that their facts and the law meet the moment of the decision maker's. for their client. And that's kind of what we're always doing, whether we're going into pitch for a business or we're trying to build a budget and get the funds that we need. And all of that translated to working with individuals and teams and getting them to realize that you are not you in a vacuum. You are you because of the difference and the impact and the connection you want to make with others. Paige Williams: go back to something you said. You said I let go Sherman: Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: of my h childhood dream of acting. I became an attorney. I laid on the floor a couple of times. Sherman: Thank you. Beck me. Yeah. Paige Williams: I exited with a stapler in a leather bag and I went back to acting school and I became a full-time actor. So talk about your relationship to the story of what was the childhood dream and then the adult dream and how that had to shift over time. Sherman: Yeah. It was funny because and you know, I've gotta tell you something, when your dream becomes your real life, sometimes it's not so dreamy. And that was a really interesting shift. Like, you know, your job as an actor is to look for a job. And I'd be like, Yay, I get to act for two minutes today, you know. The phone calls are super exciting, but that doesn't mean you're actually gonna get the work. so you have to figure out how to make your own work and that you know, cre that's you you're really truly an entrepreneur if you think about it all the time. and but the narrative for me was so embedded. I came from a very traditional family. My father was I would say my dad was an OBGYN, my mother was a Freudian psychoanalyst, which was super confusing growing up because, you know, my if I had a headache, my father would say, take two aspirin and my mother would say, Who are you mad at? So that was always but for them being an actor even though they loved being audience members, it was just that that we don't do that. That's, you know, that's not the path. And you have to be independent, you have to be hardworking, you have to make money. That was really important. and so that creative life, despite the fact that they were both super creative, you know, in their in their hobbies, they couldn't see that as a profession. And so I had to really break down a narrative of, you know, I Am I good enough? Have I achieved enough? Is this success? And you know, success is doing a, you know, a commercial for a local car dealership or, you know, member becoming the pinup girl for the American Academy of Actuaries, because I lived in DC and you know that those are the jobs that you were getting, you know, or auditioning a hundred million times for Homicide: Life on the Street in Baltimore, finally to be cast as a lawyer who sat and Did said nothing while her client confessed. I mean, it was like crazy. I didn't play a dead body. That one I I I wish I wish I had. It would have been really exciting. But you know, so it's like, is that really success? Is that what I want to do? And so to be able to start a business and take these ideas and bring them into the world of business and teams and nonprofit. I mean, think of the leaders out there who. you know, might suffer from things that hold them back, like me, the narrative that they thought they had, how can I help them release who they really are into the world in the best possible way? Paige Williams: Tell me about how you the story you ran through when you were titling your book. And talk to me about, play you in authenticity. Tell me how you got to that title and why. Sherman: Well, it's really interesting. Thank you for using the word authenticity, because I I actually have a beef with that word, you know. We all think of it in such a generous way. But I believe that authenticity is about you. That is knowing yourself. It's good. It's self-awareness. It's g it's being true to who you are. Believability to me is more about understanding who you are for and with others. And that is very much what I learned, you know, the first thing I learned in the actor's toolkit is it's not about you. It's about your partner. It's about the other actor. It's about listening. and that's y you know, how I trained. And that listening in response creates you know, a a beautiful friction in the moment that allows you to be believable to your audience in what you're trying to express and the story you're trying to tell. So for me, play you the role of a lifetime was really important because that is about you. And and because we all try to play versions of ourselves for others. And I wanted this to have an aspect of authenticity. But then the tagline of the book is bridge the believability gap to boost your confidence, connection, and impact. So that understanding and and the believability gap, you know, we I really sort of struggled with. When I thought about, wow, it's really about being believable, and and it comes from the acting definition from my particular I studied at the Neighborhood Playhouse, the home of Sanford Meisner, who's a, you know, great a guru in American acting, and he said that acting is the ability to live truthfully in given imaginary circumstances. And I thought that was such a beautiful sentence. so it's about we all are living in the circumstances we're given, but can we live truthfully to ourselves and for others? And that was the jumping off point and and became you it was actually less important for me to define believability than it was for me to define what the gap is. And it can I take a moment and take take you through that. Paige Williams: Please. Sherman: So I believe it's the gap between who we fundamentally think we are and How we think we're supposed to show up for others. So like for example, me, I'm fundamentally a creative, funny, humorous, energetic person. And I thought I had to show up like this, you know, lawyer. It's the internal, you know, to meet the serious, I am, I am a lawyer. but then Right, see the shoulder pads. Paige Williams: See the shoulder pads. Proof. Sherman: But then it's also an external gap. So it's the, you know, the gap between, you know, how you think you're showing up and how others perceive you. So you can't solve one without solving the other. You've got to solve for both. You have to think about you, but you have to think about your audience, how they're perceiving you, what their expectations are, and how you can meet their needs and wants, and that's how you make connection. Paige Williams: I love that you talked about believability is actually part of that skill is listening and hearing what the other person across from you is saying, right? So what other capacities goes into believability? Sherman: Well, in the work that I do, it starts with fundamentally knowing who you are and understanding what's important to you and how you want to show up. And you have to craft it's almost like building your character. You know, we all walk around like knowing who we are and you know, living our days, but when we're intentional and specific about it, then we can start crafting our own narrative. And I would say the first exercise, I call it your power words, is a very simple exercise. If you had to think of one word that defines you at the core, what is that word? And so knowing that word, how does it show up for you? I mean, there's to a couple of rules to I'll tell you, Paige. One is it can't be situational, like late, tired, hungry, you know, like that. And this is where self-awareness comes in. There has to be an ounce of self-awareness because You know, would your friends and family agree with you on that word? And that means you're showing up in the best possible way. And it's a powerful word because it guides for me, it's my North Star. It's how I want to be. And I struggled with it for a long time, which was odd because I make people do it like instantly, and it's usually the first word they think of. And for me, my word is energy. And so when I'm giving my energy, when I'm caring for my energy, when I'm showing up with energy, that is when I'm at the best of myself and that's how I want people to perceive me. It can also be exhausting energy too, right? I'm so you know, we are it's it's a very big word and it's got lots of meanings, but it's it's how do I want to show up in the best possible way. And then the next words that are important are your character beliefs, what's important to you. And and this is the work that I do as an actor. I always like mine the script for what's important to them, what values do they espouse, what do other people say about them. I mean, I have notebooks upon notebooks from characters that I've built that does this work. You've got to start with that work for you and how you want to show up in the world too. Paige Williams: how responsible are we for how others perceive us? Sherman: I think fully responsible. Paige Williams: Do we control others' narratives? Sherman: No, because they're gonna live in their world, but we can influence, we can try and create that connection. you know, when I think about the corporate leaders that I work with, you know, their job is to inspire a team, engage a team, and if they're all if the team is all sitting there going, Yeah, that's not the experience we're having. That's usually when people come to me, when there's they're having that disconnect with how they think they should behave and the way people are experiencing them. And so we have to double down and and figure out, you know, what's going on, where where have you broken that thread? how can we rebuild that trust with your audiences so that they know what what's really important to you and how you can get them to achieve what's important to them as well by meeting their needs and wants. So yeah I do think we are responsible for how our narrative is perceived by others and it's not easy to do, Paige, once somebody has gotten in their mind what they think of you, right? Don't you think? It's hard to change change their minds. I I have a an archetype that lives inside me of wanting to be liked all the time. And that's really challenging. and you know, I'm of an age where I'm like, I can I let that go? I try and use my humor and my lightness to create a situation where people have fun and and wanna be in the room with me. being liked is less important to me now that I'm older. Paige Williams: And that's so interesting because you're so likable and easy to be with. Sherman: The derailers of our character are often those internal derailers that we the narratives Paige Williams: Yes. Sherman: we create for ourselves. And I call those our archetypes. And as a filmmaker, you you know, you're well familiar with the archetypal characters who, you know, the bad guy, the hero, that can hold us back because we're creating a story in our head about them and we have to rework a narrative to let go of it. I mean, the number one thing that I deal with in my business is the imposter syndrome, which I I just wanna say I wish it was never in you know enumerated as a syndrome because a syndrome to me holds you back, right? There's plenty of people who feel an imposter, but they they achieve anyway. And having doubts about yourself is human. so I have to help them rewrite that narrative that it's not an imposter. It's normal, you know, so you know, maybe your lack lack of preparation. or you know all these other things that might come into play, but then then we label it as an imposter and we don't move forward. We become paralyzed. Paige Williams: Right. How do you work with people to be able to shift their relationship to that story? Sherman: Literally having them rewrite it, like rewrite their narrative. and like what if we could take that story and rewrite it? you've just told me a story where you don't want to go in and ask for that promotion or you you know, you can't you've been offered the promotion, you don't want accept it. Let's imagine and we use our imagination, you've taken the job, you know, and we actually write it out like, you know, okay, what have you achieved? How do you feel? How did you do it and it's amazing they'll come back and say well that was so it was so doable and I was like well because nobody it's like pen to paper no one can take away your narrative it's your story that you get to write about yourself and you get to rewrite it It's harder, obviously, in real life you gotta, you know, then take that behavior and translate it to asking for the raise or saying yes to the job, and that's the c courageous move. But you've had an experience of writing it out through a story. that's rewriting the script for yourself. And I I think it does change I y you know, there's cognitive behavioral research about this, that in rewriting those internal scripts, you actually are reframing the way your brain Paige Williams: Yeah. Sherman: thinks about yourself. Paige Williams: Yeah. When you're guiding people through becoming all of themselves, playing the best version of themselves, Sherman: Yeah. Paige Williams: what do you see it actually requires to go from seeing a narrative that's no longer serving them, seeing what's might else be true, but then actually choosing to live differently. what does it take to actually shift the narrative and live in it? Sherman: It's the muscle memory. It's literally you know, I have this theory that It's sort of l like a physical trainer, like a PT. If you don't keep doing the exercises, your muscle is gonna atrophy. And often, especially in a corporate setting, they'll be like, You get to work with this person for six months. And I'm like, Is anyone checking in? Have they made any commitments? Have they are we allowing are we hold are you holding yourself accountable? Is somebody helping you along, you know, when I when I leave? you know, because I also think it's important for me to coach myself out of a job. I want them to go fly. Go see how this this feels. But it is for those who keep doing the work, you know, the the rewriting of narratives, the using the tools, the you know, the exercises that I give them. I they're the ones who years later will say, I'm still using this. It's still helping me. It's real and I just love that, you know, when I get that this transformed be I had one client say to me, Thank you for helping me embrace my me-ness, M-E dash N-E-S-S. I was like and I I've watched her thrive and, you know, leave a you know, a very large company and then become an incredible entrepreneur and just just be An incredible leader, which I knew she always was, but she had to rewrite her story to in order to accept that. And then keep doing the work. Like, you know, right? If we stop. And every time I fall short and I find my narrative coming back to me of scarcity or whatever, you know, backstory I tell myself, I have to I pull out my old journal and I get to work doing the work I need to do, to be who I wanna be in the world. Paige Williams: Hmm. And what does that work look like? Sherman: it's funny how I I you know, that's why I love this narrative. I I literally am writing stories about myself all the time. I'm sharing stories about other people. Like when I talk about other people, I feel I'm growing. and that's hearing stories of incredible people doing incredible things, that feeds my soul and helps me to grow. And just, you know, always trying to like consider how do I stay true to the kind of person I wanna be in the world and the impact I wanna make and coming back to that all the time, you know. It's not a legacy thing. Like I know that's I know that's part of na narrative work. Like what's the story you want it told at your funeral? for me, it's not about the obituary I want read. It's the story I want told tomorrow. about how I showed up today. That's way more Paige Williams: Mm. Sherman: important to me. Paige Williams: It's beautiful. I keep thinking about your parents, so I want to go back what did you learn Sherman: Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: about narrative and becoming all of yourself and playing you from what you learned as the daughter of a male OBGYN and a Freudian mother? Like there there's something there. Tell me more. Sherman: It's super funny too. I think it's I I actually discovered this very recently about myself. I think one of the reasons one of my character beliefs is humor. I think it lightens the world. it's more welcoming. We need more humor in the world. is because my parents were not funny. Like they didn't know maybe they didn't know they were funny. I got to work in my dad's office as like an aide, weighing the pregnant women, which is the worst job in a doctor's office because they're super mad at you. And then he fired me in the middle of a hallway because I was a terrible filer. Like I had to file, you know. and and so when I was a lawyer and I was teaching people how not to fire people, I'm like, don't stand in a hallway and say, can't you do your alphabet? Like that was the story. they were super funny from the outside looking in, but they didn't have a great sense of humor. And so, I mean, my mother became a Freudian psychoanalyst, and when she graduated, we gave her a very funny-shaped cake and said, So glad you got rid of your, you know, envy. mean, I just Paige Williams: Did she think it was funny? Sherman: no, she was horrified that because my grandmother was in the room. so I I Paige Williams: Clutched a pearl. Sherman: I th I think, you know, the narrative for me of humor just became like looking at them and they look, they did amazing things. My mom practiced until she was 86 years old, and I know she made a difference for the patients she saw. my dad delivered over five thousand babies and and his funeral women came up and said thank you to your dad because because of him. I got an early diagnosis of you know breast cancer, ovarian cancer. You know, we were able to solve our infertility issues. Like these are beautiful stories that they lived and they loved each other on their gravestones. his says, I had such a good time. And hers says, I did too. Paige Williams: Who wrote those? Sherman: my brother-in-law and I. Yeah, because you know, that was what he always used to say. I had such a good time and and she was always saying, Me too. and I just think of one day like some stranger walking and seeing their graves and smiling about that. that to me is the story of my parents, despite the fact that they were super serious, very judgmental, and you know, created this narrative for me that I had to that I broke free of. And I was lucky enough to do it with a partner. I have a husband of forty two years. We're together, you know, forty four years this week. and you know, we we help each other's stories all the time. I think that's really it. And are constantly helping each other rewrite our stories. Paige Williams: Talk me a little bit about acceptance and rewriting your story in a 44-year partnership. How does that look? Sherman: that's a great question. Paige Williams: 'Cause he's seen you iterate many times in Shift Your Story. Sherman: My favorite part was when I came home and I was I wrote a column for 15 years, very reminiscent of a woman I played for eight years in a one-woman show around the country, a very iconic columnist named Erma Bombeck, who was the first woman to write about what it is to be a wife, a mother working in the home, fought for the ERA. She was a, you know, an icon. And when I started writing a column called The Suburban Outlaw, which was really about my life in a cornfield. And I came home and I said, I think I I I got offered this job to write a column for Gannett. and and he said, You never said you wanted to do that before. And I'm like, well, yeah, here I am. This is the new thing. he made me write 10 reasons we were I was in applying to law school and he's like, You don't wanna be a lawyer. And he made me write 10 reasons why I wanted to be a lawyer, and the number one reason was I will do our wills. And I've never done our I've never done our wills. We had to pay someone else to do it. So we I mean we have a great time always thinking about like what's next, how are we gonna grow? What's the way we're gonna and and we are completely different. He hates theater. I took him to s when we first met in London on a semester abroad, I took him to see Midsummer Night's Dream. And I came out, it was at the Shakespeare, at the Gl Royal Shakespeare Company. I said that was the best production of Midsummer Night's Dream I have ever seen. And he said, You've seen that crap before. And I married him anyway. So I think that's that's the story is that we are so different. But and this is this g back to the fundamental concept of play you, our character beliefs are very similar. And they align. when your values and your mission in life and your vision for the world you want for those you want to impact, lead and serve can be in alignment, then all the other annoyances are just fun. You know, they can put them aside. and that really helps shape the narrative. Paige Williams: That's beautiful. I wanted to go back to something you said that I've never heard anyone say, and that was that you see a negative side to the word or shadow side to the word authenticity. Can you tell me more about that? Sherman: Because I I believe right now in the world we have today, we have way too much authenticity. A lot of authenticity can be I'm gonna be who I am. I don't care who you are, I don't wanna see you. It is all about me. And that com and I and I also think that it's missing something. When a client says to me my core defining word is authentic, I'm like, authentically what? You know, I feel like you're you I I feel like there's a there's something that I need I need more of. But authenticity can be used as a bludgeon Paige, and we're seeing it in so many of our leaders today. because it's it doesn't have anything to do with understanding other people's needs. It it's good. I you know that's why I say I I don't think you sh should completely not be connected to who you are authentically, but really figure out authentically what, authentically who. Go keep a you know keep asking deeper and deeper questions and authentically for whom. Paige Williams: I love this. So when you hear the word authenticity, you think it's missing compassion and empathy. Sherman: Essentially. I mean, look, a lot of this work is around emotional intelligence. So but you know, there are four and I think what people think is emotional intelligence is, I care about other people. I'm like, no, no. You have to know who you are. so it's self-awareness, self-management, you know, you can't just be self-aware but then not actually, you know, manage who you are. It's relational awareness. I am, you know, for you. And then relational management. How do I manage my relationship with you? Where's you know, what's the empathy and compassion look like behaviorally? So to me, if you only have the self-awareness piece, you're missing the whole full circle of being a whole human being. I love the idea of I call it the generous connection of you for others. And so I think we need more of that in the world right now. And that's why that's why my bully pulpit is authenticity isn't enough. Paige Williams: Hmm. Talk to me about the differences that you would see between the words emotional intelligence and how you would frame if you were writing the book Narrative Intelligence. What's Sherman: huh. Paige Williams: different about those two? Sherman: I think emotional intelligence, and you know, we can thank all of the great researchers who founded it. And I'll never forget saying to my son as he was graduating high school, and I was like, So what are you feeling? Are you sad? And he wouldn't tell me any he said, finally goes, Okay, I'm sad, mom. And I said, Thank you, because your emotional intelligence and knowing how to articulate your feelings is going to be way more important to you in the world than anything. I think narrative intelligence. again expands the concept to you've got the baseline emotional intelligence, but then what are the stories I'm going to build about myself around that? How can I make my narrative both useful for me but useful for others? And so narrative intelligence is building on emotional intelligence, I believe. because you need one in order to inform the other. and you know, our stories are better when they are again self-aware and then audience connected. So that's what I think narrative intelligence will do for and I I'm so excited to learn more about your interpretation of it. I Paige Williams: Well, you just you just brought something forth that no one has that is fascinating, and that is that narrative intelligence requires emotional intelligence. And no one has said that yet, so thank you for bringing that up. one of the things that has come up, which I think is just like I just wrote about it and posted about it, evil geniuses, right? They know how to use narrative to move whole cultures through evil, right? Sherman: Correct. Yes. Paige Williams: political leaders I'm thinking about. Sherman: Yeah. Paige Williams: That doesn't mean, I mean, to me, like I want to get on my pulpit, that doesn't mean they're narratively intelligent. It just means they understand the s power of story to move people to do something, right? Sherman: Yes, yes. Paige Williams: But it makes sense. if emotional intelligence is required for narrative intelligence, then there is a sense of good in in narrative intelligence because emotional intelligence requires goodness. I believe. I don't know. These are all more questions than answers. Sherman: I believe. There's some really interesting research that I have in the book and I discovered years ago from a a professor who's now at she was at UNC and now at University of Buffalo. Her name is Dr. Melanie Green. Paige Williams: Okay. Sherman: she's the researcher who said that when we read fiction, we become more empathetic because we read about people who aren't like us, which is beautiful. Paige Williams: Mm. Sherman: but her other Famous research is that f emotions are more persuasive than facts, which is sort of fascinating, right? And of course and of course you and I obviously given who we are are gonna be like, Well, yeah, that makes sense. But it actually can be used in a terrible way, as we've seen in social media, right? That, you know, facts are have been pushed aside for fomenting emotional responses that trigger the amygdala and negativity. And that is the whole impact of, I believe, of our social media experiment gone wrong. So I think her research would inform narrative intelligence because can we think about positive emotions? Can we, you know, emotions are more persuasive than facts, but how can we get people to think about that in a positive way? And be more open to the facts because they are emotionally available. that's why I think emotional intelligence is critical as a baseline for narrative intelligence. Because Paige Williams: Yeah. Sherman: you know, and why, by the way, my my bully pulpit against authenticity is is in direct response to these leaders who are bludgeoning us with their authenticity. And and and and we're all taking it like a you know, a blow to humanity over and over and over again. Paige Williams: I have a question for you. And it's deeply personal to me. I'm wondering if I should be offended that people call me authentic. Sherman: No. Okay. Okay. Paige Williams: And there's a second part to it. Let me add. That not as much anymore, but I used to get a lot of you're intimidating. And I'm like, how could I be intimidating? I'm the nicest person in the world. But I feel like that is what you're saying in play Sherman: I know. I get it too. You're a lot. Hmm. Paige Williams: you is that you perceive yourself one way and people perceive you another way. So what how do we align those two things to be the same? Sherman: Yeah. And very vulnerable. Thank you for for giving me the gift of being able to answer it. First of all, not everybody, you know, this is a new concept that I've just informed you of new way of looking at authenticity. Mostly people are saying as a kindness and it's fun. I mean, I I you right, wow, you're really real, you're really funny, you're you know, that I i maybe if you'd asked them, well, what do you mean by that? What you know, what does authentic mean to you? I think that opens a conversation that's really would be interesting and curious. The second part of what you asked is I'm intimidating and that shocks you because I'm al always told I'm a lot. And I'm like, me? Like what are you talking about? Paige Williams: I'm just me. Sherman: I'm not I'm just me. I don't think I'm a lot. Or maybe you're not enough. you know. It is important to me to be all that I am in the world and to see your a lot as thank you. Yes I am. Yes I am. I'm a lot. Welcome, welcome to my journey. Come on, come on, come on on board and let's see what happens. Paige Williams: I love it. Pam, thank you for sharing your lotness with us. I learned a ton. I so appreciate you. It was a pleasure. Sherman: Thank you. I'm so excited for all of the work that you're doing and I'm very honored. What an interesting deep conversation. Paige Williams: Same. Same. Before we close, here's what I'm taking from this conversation about narrative intelligence. Pam talks about the believability gap as the distance between who we fundamentally believe we are, who we think we are supposed to be, and how other people actually experience us. And that made me think about something that I haven't emphasized enough in this project, perhaps. Our narratives are not only internal, they are relational. I can have a story about who I am, you can have a completely different story about who I am, and I cannot control your interpretation. But Pam argues that I do have some responsibility for the experience that I create and for noticing when there is a gap between my intention and my impact. I've often heard in some of the spiritual circles that I run around in. That what other people think of me is none of my business. But Pam complicates that for me in a way that I actually really like. Maybe their interpretation belongs to them, but how fully I show up as myself, how aligned my behavior is with my values, and whether I'm willing to pay attention to my impact are absolutely my business. And then there's the question of actually changing. Pam sees people recognize an old narrative, imagine another possibility, even physically write a different story for themselves, like a script. But she says the shift only becomes real through repetition. You have to practice it, behave from it, and return to it when the old story comes back. That reinforces something I keep learning through these conversations. Insight is not the same as enactment. Pam also challenged a word that we celebrate all the time, and that word is authenticity. Her argument is that authenticity by itself can become this is who I am, take it or leave it. Knowing yourself matters, but so does listening, empathy, relationship, and the effect that you have on another person. She even proposed that narrative intelligence may depend in some way on emotional intelligence. I don't know yet whether that's true, but it gives me an important question to keep testing. Can someone be highly skilled with narrative without being narratively intelligent? And my favorite line from Pam may be the simplest. She isn't interested in the story people will tell at her funeral. She wants to know the story they could tell tomorrow about how she showed up today. So the question that I'm leaving with is: What story are you telling about yourself, about who you are? And does the way you showed up today make that story believable? If this conversation gave you something to think about, subscribe to 100 stories and tell me in the comments what idea stayed with you.