Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Elliot about his choice of The Gunfighters (3/4)

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Talks to Elliot about his choice of The Gunfighters (3/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  Hamster with a blunt. Pen knife for doing quicker.
• 0:37
  Welcome back to Hamster with a Blood Pen Knife, the Doctor Who
• 0:41
  commentary podcast. Hello, Elliot.
• 0:44
  Hello, Joe. How you doing?
• 0:46
  I'm I'm good. How are you?
• 0:48
  Well, do you know I'll see you in the last week?
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  I've made a new friend. It's rather wonderful.
• 0:52
  Oh, who? Who's here?
• 0:56
  Yo, you twat. In fact, I think we talked.
• 1:00
  Have we not talked every day since we did that first podcast?
• 1:03
  Yeah, it's a bit unhealthy, isn't it?
• 1:05
  You can tell I've got no one to talk to about Doctor Who.
• 1:08
  I feel by the end of the month we may be in a relationship, you
• 1:10
  know, married by the end of the year.
• 1:13
  Well, that's all right. I'll get the divorce papers
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  sorted. OK, fine, fair enough.
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  Think of the children though. OK, we are here today to talk
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  about episode 3 of The Gunfighters, the name of which
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  are forgotten. I just I just had it up.
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  It is. Johnny Ringo, snap.
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  That's Lawrence Payne joining the story, looking very
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  handsome, may I say. And he turns up again later in
• 1:42
  Doctor Who. Now, I'm going to continue your
• 1:44
  education of joining the dots as we've been doing today.
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  Have you seen the two doctors in season 22?
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  I have seen the two doctors. He's Dastari with the crazy
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  glasses. You know, the scientist.
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  Yeah. Let's go, Didn't he?
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  And that must be that must be so.
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  That must be so weird. You 2 experiences to talk to in
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  the gunfighters and then going into the two doctors.
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  Blimey. Two absolute classics in my
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  book. Yeah, so I always feel sorry for
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  Jacqueline Hill going from beautiful, classic black and
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  white doctor to being in make losses that she's in.
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  You're not allowed to mention that without saying it.
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  Descended from the heavens. Well, she's having fun, isn't
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  she? She is, you know, it's good.
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  Yeah. It's nice to nice to know that
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  she. Yeah, she'll still could go.
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  So now look at you said you took me to task at the end of episode
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  2 and said that we need to be talking more about the gunfires.
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  So how are you enjoying it so far?
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  I'm, I'm loving it so far. I do think I it's a story that I
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  don't ever actually want to pic holes in because everybody else
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  does it and it's very boring. You could, couldn't you?
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  It it you could pick out if you wanted to.
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  And I think I do lose. I still I'm still enjoying it.
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  I do lose interest in the gunfighters in its latter half
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  where it starts to introduce real drama to the to the story.
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  And I think the first episode is probably it's stand out of and
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  comedy and and brilliance, but I'm I'm still having a good time
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  with it. Episode 2.
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  Episode 1 is usually the stand out episode of every classic dog
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  food story. This is Yeah, that's true.
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  You know, you you're laying out the you're laying out the
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  mystery. There's all the intrigue,
• 3:24
  finding out what it is. And then normally when you find
• 3:26
  out what it is, it's the fear could never quite live up to the
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  intrigue, the. Best thing about the first one
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  here is there's no intrigue or mystery at all.
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  It's just a load of comics miss happenings leading to.
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  It's just people wander, yeah, wandering around the Wild West
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  town. Whereas true to form, in season
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  3, The Gunfighters goes from comedy hijinks to a bloodbath at
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  the end. It happens in a while.
• 3:48
  I think there's much comedy in the massacre, but there is a
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  bloodbath. It happens in the myth Maker,
• 3:52
  certainly. Yeah, I mean, yeah, Dalek Master
• 3:54
  Plan is joyless, but that not not as in it's not enjoyable,
• 3:58
  but as it's not very funny, but that that everyone dies in that
• 4:01
  story. It's so weird isn't it?
• 4:03
  When you watch the 1st 6 episodes of Daleus Master Plan
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  you know Katarina dying in the airlock and that prison planet
• 4:10
  and all very sort of macho and Terry Nation and then suddenly
• 4:14
  you're in episode 7 and it's a pantomime.
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  Which I honestly, personally I think is the stuff that I
• 4:19
  prefer. We'll hold that running around
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  in Hollywoods. I, I'm not a this is OK, This is
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  my big because we're also still talking about like first doctor
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  stuff, just in general. The my one of my maybe biggest
• 4:33
  red flags the other Doctor Who fans and kind of get angry at
• 4:37
  before is I was I was never. I don't really like Terry
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  National's writing style. I come to you're not.
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  Going to get on well with my other half then.
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  He loves him. I come to a pre I obviously I
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  like stories that he's written and I do appreciate some of it.
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  But I mean, just, you know, every time I I could watch any
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  one of the stories that he's penned and it feels like
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  watching the last one and it's part of the charm.
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  But it is all very just, you know.
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  Terry's. Bumper book of sci-fi cliches.
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  Barry and Terry got the original script for Genesis and the
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  Daleks, and they go, Terry, this is what you wrote for us last
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  year and what you wrote for us the year before.
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  Will you please go back and try again?
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  I think our Genesis, the Daleks episode that that we that we did
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  for Camelot party. I I remember relaying that being
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  like, Oh yeah, Terry, it's genius, brilliant.
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  Of course it is. You're a fantastic writer.
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  But yeah, you wrote it for us last year, so.
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  Robert Holmes, please, would you just give this a look over,
• 5:35
  please, and write some good dialogue on it?
• 5:36
  Thank you very much. I think there is something to be
• 5:38
  said about that, you know, where I feel like there's a version of
• 5:41
  that where you love that Terry Nation doesn't take that kind of
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  thing well. And that makes him angry.
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  And he's a genius and he will only.
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  But actually it's quite nice that they're the only people
• 5:51
  who've ever had the balls to actually say to him, look, you
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  know, this is just the same kind of thing.
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  And he actually goes and challenges himself to do
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  something interesting, you know? Sometimes you need it, don't
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  you? You need a challenge.
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  Though fair fucking play. A bit like actually, I think a
• 6:03
  bit like Hartnell in the Massacre where the producer in
• 6:08
  the script editor, they weren't too keen on Hartnell.
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  Therefore now we're going to challenge him.
• 6:11
  They gave him that role of the Abbott of Ambroise and say,
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  well, let's see. And then they gave him that
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  massive speech at the end and he's like fuck you guys, this is
• 6:20
  going to be word perfect. And it was.
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  Yeah, and same kind of thing as well, where, yeah, there's all
• 6:25
  those apocryphal stories about them cheering him on and telling
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  him it's the the the best performance that's ever been
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  down in Doctor Who. It's on a rival with
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  Shakespeare, you know, Brilliant Bill, Brilliant.
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  Just to get him on side a little bit.
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  Puffing his chest like I know, I know.
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  Oscar worthy, Yes, although that's swinging it around to
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  Donald Cotton for a second. We will press play in a second,
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  I promise. You guys swinging it around to
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  Donald Cotton now. He does it.
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  He loves doing this thing, doesn't he?
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  I'm having the Doctor mistake him for somebody else and his
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  first story is gold and in his second story it's stock holiday,
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  so he likes having a bit of fun of throwing the Doctor in an
• 7:03
  unfortunate situation and seeing what happens.
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  Yeah, and see, I mean season 3, you know, you've also got ads at
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  the massacre on top of that where Stephen thinks he's the
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  Abbot of Ambos. This is quite a quite a mix up
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  season. I do.
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  You know what? That that cliffhanger.
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  We will. I promise you.
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  We'll talk about the gunfire soon.
• 7:20
  That cliffhanger in Massacre where it looks like the Doctor
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  is dead. The Doctor posing as the Abbott
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  is dead. I think that's one of the best
• 7:28
  cliffhangers ever in Doctor Who and Stevens reaction.
• 7:31
  I'd love to see it. Yeah, might be slightly might be
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  slightly rivalled by the I can't remember the the exact line, but
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  the the cliffhanger that ends with Hartnell in that really
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  that really strange voice. So the bring him to me is a.
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  Why'd you? It's a Goodyear for
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  cliffhangers, isn't it? This is the one, the year that
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  has that wonderful bit in the Ark as it goes up the statue and
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  you realise it's got a mono's head on the top.
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  It's a good, it's a good year. It's a shame.
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  I don't know if part of it is because I think, yeah, Toby
• 8:04
  Haydock's spoken on Strictly before about really liking a lot
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  of the 60 stuff because there's a level of kind of archaeology
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  that goes into it and you, you got to dig around.
• 8:12
  It all feels like a mystery. But there is something about
• 8:14
  Season 3 that I really love. And I don't know if half of that
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  is because you can't take, I take Season 2 for granted
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  because it all exists so I can just, well, other than those two
• 8:22
  episodes of The Crusade, but I can just go watch it whenever I
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  want. But Season 3 feels like
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  something to be revered because I've got to put a lot more
• 8:30
  effort into accessing it, accessing it and.
• 8:34
  There's a desperation, I think, which I love, but it's like a
• 8:37
  creative desperation. You come in with Verity Lambert
• 8:41
  starting it in Galaxy 4, then you go through John John Wiles,
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  and then there's Jerry Davis by the end of it.
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  So it's 3 producers. You go through what, 4 girls?
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  Vicky Katarina, Sara Kingdom, Dodo Oh Polly 5.
• 8:55
  Polly, Yeah. And Ben at the end as well.
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  Stephen goes to I mean, and totally.
• 9:02
  It's just all over the place, isn't it?
• 9:04
  Talk about showing the diversity of the bloody show.
• 9:08
  Yeah, I again like I think like we like we said start yeah,
• 9:12
  starting the myth makers as a comedy ending in a bloodbath,
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  but then also going then immediately into probably the
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  most I I love the basketball or the most dour stories that the
• 9:22
  show has probably ever done. What's so funny?
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  Yeah, that mascot at the end of the Myth Makers, Right.
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  Then it's. Is it Darkly Master Plan next?
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  I think it is, yeah. And then at the end of that,
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  Sarah Kingdom dies and there's a massacre at the end of that.
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  And you think we'll get some light relief next?
• 9:38
  What's coming up? What's the first episode of that
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  called? War of Gold.
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  Great. 12 I'd imagine as well. I was trying, I was having this
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  conversation with my mum recently and she was very game
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  to just kind of sit and listen to me prattle on because she
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  doesn't care, you know? Wonderful.
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  Yeah, yeah. Bless her.
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  I love her. Coming soon to hamster.
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  A blood pen knife. Elliot's mother.
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  She might she'll be able to half remember some John Pertley.
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  Better than some of their contributors.
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  But I remember to say, you know, it's just crazy that say Dalek
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  must plan is 12 parts long and you look at that now and you can
• 10:15
  have this kind of reverence of being like, wow, this is, you
• 10:18
  know, this epic masterpiece. I can't believe they ever tried
• 10:20
  to do a 12 part story. That is ridiculous.
• 10:23
  But imagine being a kid just every because again, you can't
• 10:27
  see the title of it either. So you don't know if the next
• 10:30
  week is actually going to be the same story because the next
• 10:34
  episode is is, you know, let's go the word Dalek in it.
• 10:38
  It might not be related. The fun, The funniest thing
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  about? Three months.
• 10:43
  Three. I know, right?
• 10:44
  That's longer than any series now in it.
• 10:47
  That's just one fucking story. I mean, 48 weeks a year or
• 10:51
  something. They didn't know how lucky they
• 10:52
  were. Yeah, I imagine Doctor Who's
• 10:54
  only off air for about 3 months it was going.
• 10:57
  To be a six part all right, Darlist master plan and then
• 11:00
  head of drama said, and this is the quote.
• 11:03
  My mother absolutely loves the Daleks.
• 11:06
  So Verity Lambert went right, commissioned 26 part as we're
• 11:09
  going to do a 12 part Dalek story.
• 11:11
  And then she fucked off to whatever job she did next and
• 11:14
  John Wilds is like, I've got to make this 12 part fucking Dalek
• 11:18
  story and there we go. The own and then I suppose they
• 11:22
  try and replicate it a little bit in I mean, I, I actually
• 11:25
  quite like it, given my, my dislike for for the year that I
• 11:29
  mentioned earlier, but they, they could, I suppose, try and
• 11:31
  do it again with colony in space and oh, planet of the.
• 11:37
  Frontier in space. Frontier in space.
• 11:39
  That's it. Yeah, sorry.
• 11:40
  There's there's way too many in spaces.
• 11:42
  Yeah, yeah, they do. Frontier in space and they do.
• 11:45
  Is it Planet of the Daleks in? Very tenuously.
• 11:48
  Links. The pair of them.
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  Yeah, but that feels probably more like the direction master
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  plan should have, you know, maybe taken.
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  But I love it though. Well, look, we've taken a
• 11:58
  whirlwind tour of Season 3 here. Should we?
• 12:01
  Should we watch episode 3 of the gunfires?
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  Absolutely. How was that as a segue?
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  Was that? Quite.
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  Yeah, it was perfect. Very much you.
• 12:12
  Could patronize me a bit more than that if you like, no?
• 12:15
  No, I thought, I'm I, I have a watch for life because it's,
• 12:19
  it's my, my favorite thing to do is construct good segues to get
• 12:22
  us out of conversation. Then I'm so bad here and ending
• 12:28
  episodes as well. Do you not find you're all just
• 12:30
  there going oh goodbye, I don't know what to do at the end of a
• 12:34
  bloody episode? Yeah, I only, I only know how to
• 12:36
  end because we have a very firm scripts that I dice.
• 12:40
  Stick to in our episode 4, then just just one time for this.
• 12:44
  Yes, sure, absolutely. Is it Hartnell themed?
• 12:46
  I kind of know it is. All the stuff to plug, though,
• 12:49
  you'll have to plug all the stuff I like.
• 12:51
  I like Hamster, but I couldn't link to all your, to all your
• 12:53
  socials or whatever. I don't know if you, I don't
• 12:57
  know how much shouting out of your own platform that you do.
• 12:59
  So I couldn't do all that. That's all.
• 13:01
  That's all. Well, shall I count as him?
• 13:04
  Yeah, go on, I'll put it. Yeah.
• 13:06
  OK, you sure you're ready? Put your fingers on the bottom.
• 13:09
  Yeah. 321 Let's go, Johnny Ringo.
• 13:14
  My. We're heading out of town in
• 13:16
  this one. We're heading away from
• 13:18
  Tombstone to Dodge City, aren't we?
• 13:20
  I think they do, yeah. They do kind of run away as
• 13:23
  quick as possible. By pure coincidence, that Dodge
• 13:26
  City looks very like Tombstone, doesn't it?
• 13:29
  They're sort. Of, you know, they're all, yeah,
• 13:31
  they're all wooden buildings and.
• 13:34
  Weren't they all like, were they mining towns, Westerns?
• 13:38
  Weren't they? They were all like.
• 13:39
  Yeah, a lot, because the very famous one is Deadwood in the
• 13:47
  the Black Hills and that is all they.
• 13:49
  Get me singing Calamity Jay songs all right?
• 13:52
  But that is just a that's just a town, Yeah, built for the for
• 13:56
  the mining. Well, yeah, for the the panning
• 13:59
  the gold out of the rivers in the in the Black Hills in
• 14:01
  Colorado. So were the towns then, just
• 14:05
  like where the workers went? Yeah, I mean, I suppose I
• 14:10
  apologise because I'm going to try and remember some of it.
• 14:12
  But I think you said it was Michael Mills who was a Western
• 14:14
  expert, and he's probably going to, he's probably going to get
• 14:16
  very angry if I get some of this wrong.
• 14:18
  But I think a lot of the settlements that sort of went
• 14:21
  further out West originally were people, yeah, looking for
• 14:24
  fortune. They were kind of working,
• 14:25
  working towns and places where workers and their families went.
• 14:28
  And they started expanding because you need more for the
• 14:30
  workers and the more people that are arriving.
• 14:31
  But then eventually, and now I can't, it might have been
• 14:35
  Lincoln. I can't remember what present it
• 14:37
  was. Again, apologies.
• 14:37
  But they created basically a policy of expansionism into the
• 14:41
  West where you could get money from the federal government.
• 14:44
  If you could start a farmstead and you could, I think, grow on
• 14:49
  it for a year, they would give you money for being at a farm
• 14:52
  basically. So that's where things like the
• 14:53
  Oregon Trail started. It's people just pushing out
• 14:56
  West to find land to farm and for things to mine.
• 15:00
  So. It's part of say you don't learn
• 15:03
  nothing on this podcast, all right?
• 15:05
  And again, if if any of that was inaccurate, Michael Wells, I'm
• 15:07
  really. Sorry if I'm the typical
• 15:09
  audience member, I'm just sort of nodding my head going.
• 15:12
  It's really interesting. But I think it's you kind of
• 15:15
  asked me about why I liked Western.
• 15:16
  But I think part of that is why is because obviously in that
• 15:18
  period, there is a disgusting mistreatment of Native
• 15:24
  Americans, of course, and and the sort of, you know,
• 15:29
  sacrilegious encroachment on their land and and things that
• 15:33
  they've built. But there's also cooperation and
• 15:36
  trading. And I think there's something so
• 15:39
  almost inspiring about the human spirit of just kind of taking
• 15:42
  all your worldly possessions and going on a wagon train thing
• 15:45
  for, you know, eight months just to try and find pastures new to
• 15:51
  raise your family. I think it's very inspiring.
• 15:54
  It's a little gross the. General racial representation in
• 15:58
  the 60s and we talked about it a bit in season 5.
• 16:02
  I am very pleased they avoided the whole Native American thing
• 16:06
  in the gunfires. Absolutely.
• 16:09
  I think I mean, it's still something that, you know, I, I
• 16:13
  think sometimes we talked about it, I say in season 5, I think
• 16:16
  sometimes a mistake that we make is like talking about it as a, a
• 16:24
  thing that happened in the in the past and we still really
• 16:28
  struggle with Native American representation in anything like
• 16:31
  they are, you know, Native Americans in America are still
• 16:33
  incredibly oppressed by the US government as like a matter of
• 16:38
  policy. What don't?
• 16:39
  You find the whole idea of Thanksgiving very strange.
• 16:43
  Yeah, it's their whole society. Celebrate the massacre of Native
• 16:48
  Americans with a big Turkey. Built on yeah sort of yeah
• 16:53
  celebration of expansionism and or eradication so no yeah I'm
• 16:57
  glad that they didn't try this because even now in the big year
• 17:01
  2025 we still struggle to actually represent Native
• 17:03
  Americans so the. Only people that come out badly
• 17:06
  in the gunfighters are the Americans themselves.
• 17:10
  And, you know, I mean, that's always a great message to put
• 17:12
  out. All right, Yeah.
• 17:13
  Have you seen what's happening over there at the moment?
• 17:16
  It's like I'll, you know, Doctor Who, it is a product of it's
• 17:20
  type. There's always going to be
• 17:22
  xenophobia and sometimes racism. But you know, I'm glad if the
• 17:25
  xenophobia is just British people don't be able to
• 17:27
  convincing American accents. It's quite a nice break in it,
• 17:30
  you know. Absolutely.
• 17:32
  Another reason to like westerns as well, you know.
• 17:34
  Now I don't know if you can agree with me or not, but you
• 17:37
  usually get a load of hot men with a load of scruff in them as
• 17:40
  well, wearing tight trousers. That's what I'm appealing too.
• 17:43
  This is I can't. I can't say I can argue with
• 17:45
  that. It's not.
• 17:46
  So much in the gunfires. Really, isn't it?
• 17:48
  No. Everyone's a bit.
• 17:49
  Everyone's a bit twerpy, isn't they?
• 17:51
  In the gunfires. Werpy did you say or twerpy?
• 17:54
  Oh, sorry, Werpy. Yes.
• 17:56
  Because yes, Mr. Werpy, Yes. Although I did notice, you know,
• 17:59
  I didn't want to say it so early in the commentary, but Stephen,
• 18:02
  before he got changed into that ridiculous camp outfit, his
• 18:05
  trousers were so tight. I mean, it was very pleasurable
• 18:08
  in the eye. Yeah, it's the, it's the 60s,
• 18:11
  you know the style at the time, I'm sure high waisted, tight
• 18:15
  flares. Yeah.
• 18:17
  And I think also as well. So from everything I've kind of,
• 18:20
  I know about Peter Powis, I'm sure as well.
• 18:22
  That was also probably quite intentional on his part.
• 18:25
  Did you read that, that Blue Peter?
• 18:27
  But where he said he was having it off with half the presenters
• 18:30
  he was working with. I mean, I don't think he, I
• 18:32
  don't think he came on to Valerie Singleton.
• 18:35
  You know, she wasn't having none of that nonsense.
• 18:37
  But some of the others I think. I remember, I remember watching,
• 18:41
  it's on the, on the season 2 Blu-ray.
• 18:44
  They've got that extract from Blue Peter where they teach you
• 18:47
  about Roman history. And, you know, I mean, I never,
• 18:51
  I never liked Blue Peter as a kid who always bored me to
• 18:53
  tears. And so I'll not watch much
• 18:57
  vintage Blue Peter, but I just remember being astounded.
• 19:01
  They're all, they're all laying on their own shades, laundries,
• 19:03
  eating grapes with their hand. They're all in togas.
• 19:05
  You know, Peter Purvis reclining.
• 19:07
  Yeah. Basically the dress at a with
• 19:10
  flowers on his head eating, you know, duck Patty.
• 19:15
  I hate to confess this, but unfortunately, he forces me to
• 19:19
  watch Blue Peter. To this day, we're still
• 19:22
  watching that. Well, it's quite good actually,
• 19:23
  because two of the presenters are massive Doctor Who fans, so
• 19:26
  they do Doctor Who segments whenever they can, which is
• 19:29
  quite nice. Do you know?
• 19:30
  I know it's just them. Again, this is going to sound to
• 19:34
  to new ears or fans of the new series, this is going to sound
• 19:37
  strange, but I know it's the camera.
• 19:39
  It was a tracking shot following them in and then the camera went
• 19:43
  around the bar and followed them round.
• 19:47
  Please go and look at one of these cameras, all right?
• 19:49
  They were impossible to manoeuvre.
• 19:51
  Whatever Rex Tucker is doing directing this, maybe you got
• 19:55
  them all drunk and said go on, you can do it.
• 19:58
  Yeah. And again, it's like, I know
• 19:59
  that now you have to, you would have to do.
• 20:02
  Blocking to achieve these things.
• 20:03
  I know. I know you would.
• 20:04
  I'm not pretending that it's 100% easy.
• 20:08
  But it's such a different world of blocking, the actual blocking
• 20:10
  rehearsal that have to go into that.
• 20:12
  And, you know, you're shooting it just sensibly as a stage
• 20:16
  play. You know, you're doing it quite.
• 20:18
  You having to do it with minimal mistakes because of how the
• 20:21
  show's being made. It's impressive, you know, Now,
• 20:24
  if you do that shot, Yeah, merely Gibson misses her mark.
• 20:28
  It's fine. You just go.
• 20:29
  You go again. It doesn't matter do that and so
• 20:32
  misses Denmark. You got to plow for it.
• 20:35
  There's a bit in a minute that just makes me die of laughter.
• 20:38
  When Hartnell puts his hand on the body.
• 20:40
  He thinks he's going to rest his hand on the bar, and he leans on
• 20:43
  the body and goes, Oh dear, it's so funny.
• 20:48
  But you're right. You're right, though, that you
• 20:50
  said earlier about didn't Hartnell just sort of being just
• 20:54
  fun to watch? And even on that conversation
• 20:57
  that they're having on the stairs there, even though it's
• 21:00
  Stephen is doing the talking and Peter Purvis is doing really the
• 21:03
  acting in that scene. But looking at Hartwell standing
• 21:05
  there and he's got his hand on his chin and he's thinking and
• 21:08
  he's moving his hand and reacting to things with an
• 21:10
  eyebrow and moving his hand to different places on his face,
• 21:14
  it's just, yeah, it's so nice. He learned a great trick when he
• 21:19
  moved from movies to doing TV, when he did Doctor Who.
• 21:22
  And he, he put it to purpose, always says it's an interview.
• 21:25
  So he goes. He always gave me great advice.
• 21:27
  He goes, you're not in a movie, it's not big, TV is small.
• 21:31
  And he'd always do a square like this.
• 21:33
  And he goes. So you have to be moving your
• 21:35
  face. You have to literally be telling
• 21:37
  the audience what you're thinking all the time.
• 21:39
  And Hart was always doing it. You always know where he is in
• 21:42
  the scene. Yeah.
• 21:45
  Yeah, I just. I think he's.
• 21:47
  Massively underrated as an actor.
• 21:50
  Yeah, no, absolutely. I think there's, again, there's
• 21:54
  just so much about his story of, you know, before him doing
• 21:58
  Doctor Who, of him being typecast in gruff military
• 22:03
  roles. And then, you know, he just.
• 22:06
  And I think that's why it makes me sort of a bit, I guess, more
• 22:11
  sad rather than noise when people really diss, like
• 22:14
  disengage with Hartnell stuff. I know that it's quite
• 22:17
  inaccessible. You've got to love old telly.
• 22:21
  It's slow. And it's slow, you know, it's
• 22:23
  paced. It's paced deliberately.
• 22:26
  I know people don't like black and white.
• 22:27
  Like, I get, I get it. I know it's inaccessible.
• 22:29
  But I think he's his love for the show and the role you hear
• 22:35
  so much about. Yeah, the frustrations he's
• 22:37
  having with other members of the cast, members of the crew, guest
• 22:42
  cast. You know, he's a human.
• 22:44
  He's a human John Wiles complete like, you know, the hatred of
• 22:48
  each other essentially. But I think he's his actual
• 22:52
  always say, even if a doctor's not good, you can tell how how
• 22:57
  they are by if they're a good custodian for like the show.
• 23:01
  And he was, he's so protective of that role.
• 23:06
  What I think is even more genius is he took his own weaknesses,
• 23:10
  which was he had a bad memory. He would forget his lines and he
• 23:15
  made it part of his character. So there's scenes like in Space
• 23:19
  Museum where he's wandering around the corridors and he's
• 23:22
  going, he can't remember any of his lines, but he just comes
• 23:25
  across as like a funny dodgery old man.
• 23:27
  He sort of puts it off, you know, Jesus, the web planet,
• 23:31
  He's walking across the surface of that planet laughing his head
• 23:34
  off because he can't remember a single fucking line.
• 23:36
  And William Russell was chasing after him, going, where are we,
• 23:39
  Doctor? What planet are we on?
• 23:41
  You know, and giving him as many prompts as he can.
• 23:44
  And even in this again, where it kind of it feels like the the
• 23:47
  Mr. Werp thing they say feels like a maybe like a fluff that
• 23:51
  gets turned into a joke. And then it's nice because it
• 23:53
  gives context where he's watching around calling you Mr.
• 23:55
  Werp and then you get that bit. I think it was earlier this
• 23:58
  episode where where he and Stephen are talking to Wyatt,
• 24:03
  but Stephen, Stephen calls him Mr. Werp and then corrects
• 24:06
  himself out of frustration. Right?
• 24:09
  It's. Yeah, I do like Johnny Ringo
• 24:11
  coming in as well, because I think at this point we need a
• 24:14
  serious antagonist to come in, somebody who is genuinely and,
• 24:19
  and like, we love Charlie the barman, right?
• 24:21
  He's a sweet guy and he gets shot down in cold blood in a
• 24:24
  second. And no, no one notices.
• 24:28
  He's just slumped over the bar for the rest of the story.
• 24:30
  Or he's just having a kid. Don't mind him, bless him.
• 24:34
  But in that book, man, he literally describes it as his
• 24:38
  brain detritus from his brain splats all over his shoes as he
• 24:43
  shoots him. I have got I've got the target
• 24:46
  book. So there's a little there's a
• 24:48
  little Oxfam bookshop near me that have started selling them.
• 24:52
  I already had a couple and then they've started selling them.
• 24:55
  And then again, Damler as well, very nicely has like seen some
• 25:00
  in I think same thing like an Oxfam bookshop and it's going to
• 25:02
  be but I'm I'm sort of I can't collect all the target books
• 25:05
  because I mean I'm running out of space, but I want all the
• 25:08
  first octo on. So I've got a little healthy
• 25:09
  collection to go. My gunfighters want some.
• 25:11
  It looks it's pristine, like it looks like nobody's touched it
• 25:15
  since they bought it in the 80s It's amazing.
• 25:18
  It's such a such a genius novelization because it is being
• 25:23
  relayed through Doc Holiday at the end of his life.
• 25:26
  The unreliable narrator. He literally just makes up shit
• 25:30
  and talks directly to the audience.
• 25:31
  At certain points he goes, Oh well it's a western.
• 25:34
  I suppose you expect a bit of action and then he gives you
• 25:36
  some action. I almost don't.
• 25:38
  I do really want to. I do really want to read it
• 25:40
  because I mean, the way you've took, the way you've spoken
• 25:42
  about it has sold. Me, it's only 150 pages.
• 25:45
  It's so when I I'll have to show you, it is so pristine.
• 25:49
  I don't want to open it. I don't want to break the spine
• 25:51
  on it. To read the it's, it's absurd.
• 25:54
  It would feel like sacrilege. You're not one of those, are
• 25:57
  you? I don't like all of my book
• 25:58
  clubbers. They're so precious about their
• 26:00
  bloody spines. I mean, please, I'm.
• 26:04
  I'm not, but like there are some of these that I've got where you
• 26:07
  can just tell that they've been, they've been loved and someone's
• 26:10
  already read that. I mean, the one for the keys of
• 26:12
  Marinus, the spine on that. I mean, look, it's like shots
• 26:15
  and pieces now. That's a that's a well read
• 26:17
  book. Lots of people have had fun on
• 26:19
  Marinus for that book. But like, I don't feel so bad if
• 26:22
  I'm like opening it and turning it upside down and but say this.
• 26:27
  I mean, you could listen to the audio, that's pretty good as
• 26:30
  well. I did see that spot Spotify
• 26:34
  where they do free audio books now they've got they've got the
• 26:37
  myth makers on there. But yeah, like an unearthly
• 26:42
  child like and the other two this like the myth makers and
• 26:47
  the gunfighters. They that myth makers does look
• 26:49
  pristine. They just look completely
• 26:50
  untouched. Like this?
• 26:52
  Cover's gorgeous as well. They are.
• 26:54
  And I just, I would love, like, I'd love to love to read the
• 26:57
  Myth Makers, but say it looks like literally nobody's ever
• 26:59
  picked it up and I feel like a bit of a bastard for ripping
• 27:02
  into it. I keep finding Robe because I'm
• 27:04
  buying from the same sort of four or five shocks all the
• 27:07
  time. Oh, hang on, pause.
• 27:08
  I've got to talk about this. This dodo scene where she's
• 27:11
  holding the guard on Doc Holiday.
• 27:14
  She's going to. I'm going to have to shoot you
• 27:15
  unless you take me back to Tombstone.
• 27:17
  I like I should. Try not to kill you lame for
• 27:19
  your arm. He's not even breaking a sweat.
• 27:23
  He goes, all right, I'll take you back.
• 27:25
  And she goes, oh, thank goodness.
• 27:27
  You know, I think that might be Joe Dodo's best scene.
• 27:31
  Yeah, she's so she's so polite if sticking him up to try and
• 27:35
  get him there to help her. In the book, what's funny in the
• 27:39
  book is, I mean, Kate calls her a jailbait in that she's
• 27:43
  convinced that Doc wants to have it off with her.
• 27:48
  So she's keeping A and there's constant references between
• 27:52
  Kate, who is very sexually active, and Dodo, who is a
• 27:56
  complete innocent, and the the fun that is really funny.
• 28:02
  I do so I do really like Dodo so I enjoy when she gets a bit bit
• 28:07
  of the Mick taken out of her. Like I say we were going to do
• 28:09
  the arc. So yeah, right at the start of
• 28:10
  that she starts with all of her, you know.
• 28:12
  Oh, hey, that's fab. And even in the doctor as I go
• 28:17
  say the word fab the. Bit that made me how I mean, it
• 28:21
  wasn't funny, but it kind of was was when she's going, I say, oh
• 28:25
  child, are you OK? You know your nose is running.
• 28:28
  No, she goes. I'm crying this time.
• 28:32
  Oh yeah, when I was watching that first episode that
• 28:34
  genuinely, yeah, that genuinely maybe laugh.
• 28:36
  So when, yeah, Steven goes over to check on her and and asks,
• 28:40
  she's crying. So Oh no, my nose is rotted.
• 28:42
  I do have one, one big complaint about the gunfighters, and that
• 28:48
  is the end of the story could play out whether the regulars
• 28:52
  were there or not. And that never really should be
• 28:55
  the case. And this is the last time I'll
• 28:57
  bring out the book, I promise. But he he redresses that in the
• 29:00
  book, it makes the whole gunfight at the end the doctor's
• 29:04
  fault. So the doctor's got Mr. Work's
• 29:07
  gun and accidentally shoots it off and so they all think
• 29:11
  they're shooting at each other. So they all start shooting and
• 29:14
  then Dodo is a massive participant.
• 29:16
  She's sort of in the middle there with bullets flying around
• 29:19
  her and they're far more proactive, whereas this they
• 29:22
  could just leave 10 minutes before the end and it.
• 29:25
  And it's it's not a it's not a serious enough story where they
• 29:28
  can do the the so you know, or you yeah, you can't mess with
• 29:32
  you can't mess with history. We we must let the terrible
• 29:35
  shoot out at the OK corral happen because it's it's nowhere
• 29:39
  near got the gravitas to pull that off.
• 29:42
  OK, ask me this question then, because in season 1, right, it's
• 29:47
  you can't rewrite history, not one line.
• 29:50
  Yeah, yeah. In season 2, I'm talking about
• 29:53
  the Romans. Now it's Vicky going, you know,
• 29:56
  this is all your fault. And he goes, my fault, come back
• 29:59
  here, child, how dare you. And then he's absolutely
• 30:01
  delighted, laughing his head off in Series 3.
• 30:05
  It's like, oh, have you thought about the great horse of Troy?
• 30:07
  You know, here's a great idea and he doesn't give a shit.
• 30:10
  I mean, the more we go on, the more he's quite happy to get
• 30:13
  involved. Yeah, I think it's that I think
• 30:16
  of sort of realising the I think the show goes away from and and
• 30:24
  not like not in a way where they they don't make the kind of that
• 30:26
  kind of content anymore because I think they do.
• 30:28
  But the show definitely moves away from the whole the remit of
• 30:31
  you've got to educate and entertain.
• 30:32
  And I love Marco Polo, but there are many moments where, you
• 30:35
  know, Ian stops us to teach us a science lesson about
• 30:37
  condensation. And they kind of.
• 30:40
  Move to dance at one point, isn't there?
• 30:42
  Yeah. They move away from that sort of
• 30:45
  they're teaching you the characters, teaching you
• 30:46
  history. And I think I think they just
• 30:48
  realize that that gives you more license to we can still teach
• 30:51
  kids history, but we can do it in a sort of fun way.
• 30:56
  It doesn't have to be. OK.
• 30:57
  Well, Barbara is the history teacher, So she's going to get
• 31:00
  involved in the story and we're going to sort of get a lot of
• 31:02
  the facts relayed to us by her. As much as I enjoy that, I love,
• 31:07
  you know, I love Marco Polo. I love when they stop to have
• 31:10
  quint science and history lessons.
• 31:11
  And you know, and I mean. That's like watching talk,
• 31:14
  Peter. That is all the time.
• 31:16
  It's taught me. It's taught me stuff.
• 31:18
  It's the only reason I could ever remember that you know,
• 31:19
  China was called Cathay. You learn facts from really
• 31:23
  random places. I still know and it's one it's
• 31:26
  one of points in many of pub quiz that before Sri Lanka was
• 31:29
  called Sri Lanka, it was called Ceylon because of an Indiana
• 31:32
  Jones video game from the early 2000's.
• 31:34
  The only reason I remember that and I think Doctor Who is a pay.
• 31:37
  Attention in history once, but you've consumed a lot of media.
• 31:41
  I love things, I love, I love history, but I just, I don't,
• 31:44
  I'm not precious about where I learn it from.
• 31:45
  I'll read it in a book. But also if it's if it's the
• 31:48
  docks above the ground, the OK corral, I'm also quite happy for
• 31:51
  that. And like we said in episode the
• 31:53
  last episode, yeah, it's ticking all the boxes, right?
• 31:55
  Johnny Ring goes there, the Clanton's are there, Doc
• 31:59
  holidays there. If they weren't all there at the
• 32:01
  same time, I don't give a shit. Those are the names I know.
• 32:04
  I want to see them having a gunfight.
• 32:07
  Did you hear Hartnell a minute ago when the fella spat and he
• 32:10
  went? Disgusting habits.
• 32:14
  I love him. Oh, William Hart though, Ah, so
• 32:20
  Stephen Regret and Johnny Ringo now in Dodge City.
• 32:24
  Oh, and this is what we find out, isn't it, that Johnny Ringo
• 32:26
  had a bit of a thing with Kate? Oh, and by the way, we haven't
• 32:30
  met but Stephen. Stephen Regret is a great fake
• 32:34
  cowboy. Now I don't know why but it is
• 32:37
  just fantastic. It scratches a part of my brain
• 32:40
  that I love. Every time they say Stephen
• 32:41
  Regret it is fantastic. Dodo.
• 32:44
  DuPont on the other hand, well, I suppose it's it's nice
• 32:47
  alliteration. The thing is, there's like less
• 32:50
  of AI mean. I also don't really understand
• 32:53
  why because I mean again, I thought I would not question it.
• 32:58
  It is the gunfighters and I'm having fun, but there's nothing,
• 33:01
  there's nothing in like incongruous with the Wild West
• 33:05
  if you were called Steven Taylor.
• 33:08
  So you're being called like Dorothea as well.
• 33:10
  I think those are probably. They do hang a Lantern on that
• 33:12
  though, doesn't he? He goes.
• 33:13
  Well, why did you say it at all? So you regret.
• 33:17
  The doctors just can't. I thought, I thought, I thought
• 33:19
  it was funny. Was Doctor Caligari a famous
• 33:22
  person back then? What so I the only thing I know,
• 33:26
  so I might be showing my ignorance here in also trying to
• 33:28
  be like, Oh, well, it's this. So it might there, it might be
• 33:32
  something like that. But I know there is a 19.
• 33:37
  It's like early 1920s. I'm not going to put a date on
• 33:40
  it because I don't know. German silent like expressionist
• 33:44
  horror film called The Cabinet of Doctor Caligari.
• 33:49
  And I have seen it when I was at Union.
• 33:51
  I just could kind of lock around and watch that kind of stuff and
• 33:54
  go, oh, isn't it marvellous? Isn't it marvellous?
• 33:57
  I bet there's a sophisticated joke in there somewhere that
• 34:00
  we're not seeing. But it feels like a strange
• 34:02
  reference point. It does.
• 34:06
  And mind you, you read that bloody book.
• 34:08
  There's so many gags in there that were going over my head
• 34:11
  that Mills was explaining to me. And there must be.
• 34:15
  Yeah, there must also be a reason for it.
• 34:17
  Doctor Caligari must be someone. Look at that perspective
• 34:20
  backdrop. That is fabulous.
• 34:23
  Did you see it? It's it's the side of the
• 34:25
  building going way off into the distance now.
• 34:28
  Black and white just covers a multitude of sins in colour.
• 34:31
  That would look like a flat black drop.
• 34:33
  It looks great. Yeah, there's, there are so many
• 34:37
  moments I can I can think of in like in horrible Doctor Who
• 34:42
  where there are very clearly 2D, like just 2D backdrops, but they
• 34:48
  just work. And sometimes as well, I think
• 34:51
  you can get a bit of you can get enjoyment out of the artistry in
• 34:56
  them. So again, finally, I mean that
• 34:58
  we also do a we do a cinema podcast and for over Christmas,
• 35:02
  we talked about the Wizard of Oz and we were saying about how, I
• 35:05
  mean, we, we love it. Obviously the whole thing was
• 35:07
  just a complete love it. We didn't have anything negative
• 35:09
  to say. It was just.
• 35:11
  Backdrops are pretty incredible in that, yeah.
• 35:14
  And like that's what we were saying.
• 35:15
  It's like there is there are these painted backdrops and, you
• 35:18
  know, as a child, they used to sell me on the illusion of, of
• 35:21
  that being the distance of, you know, that's how far Oz
• 35:24
  stretches. And we'll see.
• 35:25
  Now as an adult, it doesn't have that same effect.
• 35:27
  I'm not bought into the illusion, but I'm still, it
• 35:30
  still feels magical because of how gorgeous those paintings
• 35:33
  are. And I kind of feel the same with
• 35:35
  Doctor Who where, yeah, the two in the black and white, the 2D
• 35:38
  backdrops, they're not, they're not selling me on.
• 35:41
  I'm not looking at it and and believing the myth of it, but
• 35:44
  I'm I'm enjoying the the effort and the artistry, the work that
• 35:48
  goes into creating that as a background.
• 35:51
  Just say when you go to the theatre, right you, you have two
• 35:54
  D backdrops there and you just buy into the world as it's
• 35:58
  presented. Well, yeah.
• 36:00
  And this TV like that in this time it is.
• 36:03
  They are just stage plays. Yeah, they're stage plays with
• 36:07
  the ability to cut between cameras.
• 36:08
  That's all they are. And.
• 36:11
  My favorite, you know, is, you know, the, the, the tombs and
• 36:15
  that in the Aztecs, those backdrops I just think are
• 36:18
  gorgeous. Oh the yeah, the like Mexico
• 36:22
  skyline in the Aztecs when they first land is, yeah, stunning.
• 36:27
  Add a bit of birdsong to the soundtrack and I'm there.
• 36:30
  You know, I don't need anything else.
• 36:32
  It's why I think it feels more jarring when they do, you know,
• 36:37
  with, when they do in, in the Reign of Terror, when they've
• 36:40
  got a real, well, they've not got a Hartnell, they've got a
• 36:42
  double wandering around outside. And it feels jarring because
• 36:47
  it's strange. It feels strange to be outside.
• 36:49
  I don't like it. When Hartnell's on location for
• 36:52
  the first time in the Daleks invasion of Earth, it's so weird
• 36:57
  to see him outside. It's like, no, no, I'm not used
• 37:00
  to this. Go back to the stage plays.
• 37:02
  Come on. Oh my God, it ended.
• 37:04
  What happened? That that goes Into Darkness for
• 37:09
  quite a long time, that's what. Oh.
• 37:11
  Like is it thingy Bob's he's shot?
• 37:14
  Down. Brother's dead, isn't he?
• 37:16
  Yeah, that's it. Is his brother, isn't he?
• 37:19
  Someone shot down. Somebody's dead.
• 37:21
  Someone, someone gets shot. Pretty.
• 37:24
  Yeah, it's a cliffhanger. It's a little taster for what's
• 37:27
  coming in Episode 4, where lots of people are going to be shot.
• 37:30
  Lots of people are going to get shot down.
• 37:31
  I'm going to make an argument that that is one of the finest
• 37:36
  short action pieces and film work done at Ealing ever in
• 37:41
  classic here. I just think that last sequence
• 37:43
  looks great. I agree.
• 37:46
  Well, should we go and watch it then?
• 37:50
  That's end this bloody thing. I'll cut it there.