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Why Women’s Confidence Matters (and How to Build It) · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: In this show, I'm honoured to be chatting with remarkable women redefining our working world across all areas of business.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: They'll share their secrets on how they've achieved extraordinary success after children, set boundaries and balance, the challenges they've faced and how they've overcome them to define their own versions of success.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Shy away from the real talk?
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: No way.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Money struggles, growth, loss, boundaries and balance we cover it all.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Think of this as coffee with your mates, mixed with an inspiring TED Talk sprinkled with the career advice you wish you'd really had at school.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: So grab a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, make sure you're cosy and get ready to get inspired and chase your boldest dreams, or just survive Mondays.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: This is the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by Investing in Women.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Investing in Women is a job board and recruitment agency helping you find your dream part-time or flexible job with the UK's most family-friendly and forward-thinking employers.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Their site can help you find a professional and rewarding job that works for you.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: They're proud to partner with the UK's most family-friendly employers across a range of professional industries, ready to find your perfect job?
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Search their website at investinginwomencouk to find your next part-time or flexible job opportunity.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: Now back to the show.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Today I am chatting with Lauren Currie, who is the founder of Upfront, and I'm really excited to be chatting with Lauren Currie, who is the founder of Upfront.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: And I'm really excited to be chatting with Lauren because I've been a huge fan of Lauren for such a long time and she probably doesn't know this but when I was made redundant back in the pandemic, I bought the Pregnant, then Screwed.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: They had a redundancy rehab course and Lauren was a part of that and she recorded a really brilliant video and it stuck with me the entire time.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: And I think you were referencing thing is you were sort of talking about people maybe setting up their own business or something like that, and you were saying people are worried that other people have done it before and you were sort of saying if Ed Sheeran, for example, thought I'm never going to write another song because loads of songs have already been written.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Then we'd all be missing out on Ed Sheeran music.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: And you also said another phrase that has really really stuck with me and that phrase is they're not that smart.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: And do you know what?
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: As someone that had, when I'd been at work, had had massive imposter syndrome, sitting in rooms that I felt I didn't deserve to be in, with a lot of men and not raising my voice, that is something that has really stuck with me.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much, lauren.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I'm really excited to get some more of your wisdom and share it with the listeners today oh, I'm so happy to be here and I didn't know that story.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: That's such a lovely story.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: It feels like a million years ago.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: I remember making that video in my mum's dining room, like balancing on top of my mum with my phone, balancing on top of a pile of books, and I want to say, was it?
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: If it was Ed Sheeran that I referenced?
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: That's such an interesting choice, because I think I would definitely have mentioned Taylor Swift, maybe you mentioned Taylor.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: I remember it being a really famous singer and it was something about.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Imagine if they decided that, like, there was already a million songs out there, so they weren't going to even bother and I was like yeah, that really stuck with me.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: So thank you, of course, because I think we get this constant fear of like oh, but there's already.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: There's so much noise, there's already so many businesses, there's so many blogs, there's so many instagram accounts, there's so many stories, there's so many books.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: And it's like okay, let's think about a song.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe it was your first dance at your wedding, maybe it's the song that you love to sing and you're at full blast when you're in your car like a song that your life would miss.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, imagine if the artist who created that song had been like oh, but there's already four million songs.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: Does the world need another song?
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: yes, yes, especially if you're taylor swift or edgar and all the next in the next day, especially if you're a woman read, read more songs, more books, more stories, more opinions, more businesses, more art, more all of it Like we have an insatiable appetite for art and creativity, and I really, really want women to stop shutting themselves down before they've even started because they're counting themselves out, because it's too noisy, because, in fact, the opposite is true.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Is that why you found it up front?
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: I mean one of many reasons I guess it's something that I'm very motivated by is to help women in particular understand that those barriers are false, because I think when women learn confidence and women learn how to build businesses and tell their story and take up space in the world, whatever that looks like, the world changes for the better.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: You know, it changes how we make money, it changes how we parent, how we're in community, and we need that more than ever right now, more than ever before, I think absolutely.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: I do say that's actually the more wealth women have actually, the more obviously that then it does change the economy as well, because, you know, women probably will invest in different types of businesses than men.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: So I think it's going to hopefully be a real shift and we're going to see some really interesting businesses um coming up in the future as well, um.
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: So I've got some questions um.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: So I know that you are in sweden at the moment.
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: I think are you is the thing freezing a bit?
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: yeah, I think my um my wi-fi did something funny, but we're back now we're back now.
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, lovely, I will start off with the questions now.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Actually, do you want to?
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Should you want me to ask you because I asked that while you found it up front, do you want me to ask you what up front is?
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah and maybe yeah, yeah, yeah, who I am?
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: and what Upfront is.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Lovely.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: So for those actually that don't know who Upfront are, what do you do and who do you help, so Upfront is a business.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: I'm an entrepreneur, upfront is my sixth business and we are on a mission to upskill 10 million women and we do that through our flagship product, which is called a bond b-o-n-d.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: And bond is the collective noun for a group of women, and so we I got myself a knot, so on.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: So and bond is the collective noun for a group of women, so every cohort that goes through our product is its very own bond.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: And our bond is all about unlearning and relearning confidence in a way that is focused on getting rid of all the myths that we've been taught about what confidence is growing up, that confidence is loud and extroverted and confidence is arrogance and confidence is aggression.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: And really changing the conversation around confidence to help people understand what it is, where it comes from, how you cultivate it in yourself and others.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: And we've had 15,000 women from over 24 time zones have graduated from a bond and they are more likely to apply for leadership positions, more likely to earn more money, more comfortable with change, happier within themselves.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: You know we have lots and lots of data that shows our product really does what it says on the tin.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: So we're building a confidence revolution and we are doing that one bond at a time.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: We have a conference every year called Upfront and Centre, and my book Be Upfront is coming out on January 2026.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: Exciting, so do they.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: So you get a cohort.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: How many cohorts do you run per year?
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: So the cohorts are ongoing all year round.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: Oh, so you can join any time.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and we host bonds for organisations.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: That's our main focus.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: So we host bonds for organisations like Nike and Sainsbury's, and we also have bonds for specific sectors.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: So we have the charity bond for charitable organisations, the government bond for local government and central government organisations, and we host bonds for organizations all year round.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: So, for example, the bond we've got live at the moment is a real estate company which is, of course, a very male dominated, quite traditional hierarchical environment, and we're also launching bonds that teach different topics in different domains all of the time.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: So we have a visibility bond.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: We're about to launch a leadership bond.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: We're working on a financial literacy bond.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: So, no matter who you are and what you want to learn, there will be a bond for you.
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: And I guess you could join multiple bonds and if I decided I wanted to be more visible and learn more about finance.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, and many people do, because once you're in a bond, you don't want to leave, because community is incredibly powerful and changes your life yeah, so do they have like, except do you?
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: I'm very interested to do people call in every week, you know?
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Do you have group calls, coaching, is that how it works?
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: so every wednesday, we have what's called uh, we call it a huddle and bond power hour.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and even if you're not a bonder, you're welcome to come.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: All of your listeners are welcome to come.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: We go live every wednesday at 12 o'clock, uk time, for one hour, and it's hosted by a brilliant facilitator from the upfront team.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: So there's some structure and some guidance there and it's essentially a space to connect, celebrate, learn together and build those peer to peer relationships.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: So you often say that the problem is in the women lack of confidence, but the confidence in women isn't rewarded.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: So can you unpack that for us, and what's the cost of this dynamic for women, for men, for teams and for wider society?
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I say this often because it really is at the core of everything that I do and everything Upfront does there's this problem that it's not that women lack confidence, it's that confidence in women's not rewarded.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: And as a, as a society, we love confident men.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: We call it leadership, we call it presence, we call it gravitas, our vision.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: And then when a woman shows up confident, it's often she's difficult, she's arrogant, she's too much, she's self-centered, and we tell young girls to use their voice and speak up, and then we tell grown women to tone it down and, you know, be a bit less.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: And then it's like when you're, you're encouraged and invited to lead and and then when you do lead, you know people don't like it because you're challenging the status quo.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: So it's not that women lack confidence, it's that we lack a system that is rewarding and cultivating that confidence.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: And the cost of it is enormous because we are trapped in this double bind and it's everywhere.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: So let's think about a very individual level.
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: It leads to self-doubt, it leads to burnout, it often leads to what's mislabeled as imposter syndrome, when really what's happening is women are having a very rational, valid reaction to a system that is penalizing their power and their confidence.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: And then if we look at teams, which is what we see with the organisations and who enrol in the bond so, for example, national Trust just enrolled 555 women in our bond because they can see from previous bonds that at a team level, when that confidence is low, it means that teams are missing out on big ideas, honest feedback, because the women are so busy managing perceptions of themselves that they don't have the space to lead and express themselves freely.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: And then at society level, a societal level, it's economic, because we have half the population who are told to stay in your box.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: So we lose innovation, as we said at the start, we lose art, we lose creativity, we lose businesses and that is a loss to everyone, it's a loss to the whole world.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: And that's why I really do see confidence as a business tool and an act of resistance.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: You know right now it shouldn't be an act of resistance, but it definitely is do you know when you're talking to who I'm thinking of, and I mean, I was.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: She's quite a polarizing character, but obviously it's probably what we talked about is like a Meghan Markle, you know, you don't.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: You go in the um Daily mail, which we obviously know is quite a right way online paper, and it just tears her character apart on a daily basis.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: And you may not agree with all that she's done, you know, or maybe you love her, but I guess it's that messaging, isn't it?
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: That she's too much, that she's not stayed in her box, that she's doing this, that the other wrong, and then you'll have someone like Kate, who comes across a lot more quiet, a lot more demure, who's playing by the rules, and the press seem to love her, and I guess it's that messaging, then, that us as normal women are reading and consuming, that's telling us this is how we have to behave yeah, it's really toxic, and I think, in that example in particular, of course, misogynoir and racism is playing a big part in that dynamic, but we've seen it also play out.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, we see it everywhere.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Whether it's Taylor Swift you know, she's the arguably the world's most successful woman and also one of the world's most hated women, pam Pamela Anderson, who turned up to the red carpet with no makeup on, and you know the floodgates open with piles of abuse that is from other women.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: You know, I think, how women and girls are taught from a very young age that other women are competition and that there is not enough room for all of us to thrive and succeed, and that is a very intentional consequence of the patriarchy.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: It's like the system is working exactly as it is designed to be, and that's why, rather than see a confident woman and see that as an invitation and an exciting this is what's possible we default to who does she think she is?
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like, well, she is who you would be if you weren't scared, and that's why you're triggered by how she's showing up in the world, and I really believe that internalized misogyny is the missing part of this conversation.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: It's the part that we are not having with the comfort and ease that we're having about.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: The wider piece of women need more confidence.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: We need workplaces to support women to be confident.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: It's like, yes, but also let's talk about the role that women are playing in upholding these harmful norms and the status quo that is harming other women.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Why do you think women doing that to other women that is harming other women?
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: why do you think women doing that to other women?
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Because that's women are doing that for to other women.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Because we have been taught by the patriarchy that women are less than, and so we absorb that messaging about ourselves and each other.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: And so let's take the pamela anderson example I'm just wondering if it's even a generate.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know really, because, yeah, I don't know if it's like.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Maybe I think, like looking back at our generate, right, obviously it's not all come to fruition, but you know, in the 19 born in the 1980s, in the 1990s, you grew up thinking, oh, we're going to be, you know, we can be equal to me.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: I know there's obviously issues, but I'm wondering if it's even like a generational thing that women that were brought up, you know, maybe earlier in the century, that were taught that are then more uncomfortable when they I'm just thinking, even in my family, you know, there does seem to be a generational split about people like Meg Markle.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think generation absolutely plays a part, because culture is a huge part of this conversation.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: There's actually a really brilliant book that's just been published called girl on girl by sophie gilbert.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Old book is about how the 90s culture and mainstream media taught women to hate other women and that's through, you know, paris Hilton, britney Spears, madonna.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: But we see it, it's still a very present day problem with younger generations.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: We see it with Taylor Swift, kamala Harris, beyonce.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: Women are punished for having ambition, they're punished for having boundaries, they're punished for talking about mental health, and that is because we are we.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: We are internalizing the messages that we are given from a very, very young age.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: You know we and we're using these.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: The generation below us now, like young teenage girls now, are using a tool like instagram where when they delete a selfie, the algorithm sends them an ad for a beauty product because they know they're having a moment of not feeling pretty enough or not feeling beautiful for their friends and that's really dangerous.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: So much to unpack, isn't it?
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: because I guess so much is so so ingrained internally, I'll get a lot.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: I guess a lot of it's just like subconscious level.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: And then how do you unravel all those subconscious messages that you've maybe internalized over 30, 40, 50?
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: years, but it's, but we are.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: We are in this amazing opportunity where our brains can do that.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: We can build new pathways.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: We have more knowledge and information at our fingertips than we've ever had before, and that's one of the reasons why our bond is so incredibly transformative.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's only six weeks, but even just in those six weeks it transforms how women are thinking about their confidence, the confidence of the women around them, and the ripple effect of that is immeasurable.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: It impacts their children, children's children hopefully, and how you show up in every aspect of your life, and we see it a lot with.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: A lot of the women who come to the bonds are new mothers, because our bond is free if you're on maternity leave, but it's also a time where your confidence can have, can take a big hit right.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: And we see a lot of women showing up and they ask me how can I raise a confident daughter without her becoming arrogant?
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: And it's so fascinating to me that mothers are obsessed with that question.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: They are not asking that question about their boys that's so interesting we are.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: We are taught that being arrogant, being a show-off, being too big for our boots is the worst possible.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: We must avoid this at all costs, and that is bullshit.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: I like, I call bullshit yeah yeah, on your podcast no, I think it's easy, because I really love being confident, because obviously I saw you on that run it doesn't see we have and was really inspired by you, by Jolie, obviously, anna Whitehouse, I love Taylor Swift, so I actually I don't know.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Really I get really inspired seeing confident women and think if they can do it, maybe I can do it absolutely.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: I do too, and I also have moments where something pops up on my Instagram and I think why she got that and I don't.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: I do.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: That's interesting.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I do, I do.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: I see, maybe this is like.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: This is the Instagram thing, like if you see a really beautiful woman that's really skinny, that is quite a trigger for me, where I'm like, and then then I'll get fed the adverts about weight loss pills or whatever, because obviously Facebook knows what triggers me, which is obviously dangerous and you know, obviously I'm nearly 40, but if you were a 15 year old girl, that's not healthy and I think it's important that I share that example the way I did, and you talk about things like that, because I don't want your listeners to listen and think, oh gosh, you know, I'm part of the problem and I'm mean and awful, because that doesn't help anybody.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: We need tons of self-compassion, we need tons of kindness.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: It's like, okay, this is interesting, let's get curious about this.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: All you have to do is notice.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: That is the hardest part of creating any change and it is the first place all of your listeners can start.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Just notice.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: When do do those who does she think she is creep up?
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: When do you look at your daughter and think she's showing off and just pay attention?
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: And that will give you so much insight and pause for thought just that will give you so much insight and pause for thought.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's a bit like your book.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: I know that your book is out.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Um, do you want to give people a bit of an overview about your book?
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: But that is the message, I think, in the book as well, isn't it?
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: oh, this is the first time I've talked about my book publicly excited.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: I don't have my uh, I don't have my spiel rehearsed, but from my heart in the moment.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: So it's called Be Up Front.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: Confidence is not what you think it is, and we are using a framework that we use at Up Front, which is where we take the old rule, present the new rule and then figure out how we are going to live by the new rule.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: And there's 27 old rules about confidence that we are burning to the ground and we are going to commit to live and breathe these new rules.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: So, for example, the first rule is that confidence is something that you're born with.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Some people have it and some people don't.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: The new rule, the upfront rule, is confidence is a muscle and it is something that anybody can learn.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: It is a practice.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Then the book breaks down step by step how you do that and gives you stories from my life and all of the bonders all over the world on how they've done it.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Because it's important to remember.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, I've built a business very focused on building a confidence revolution for four years.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that I am the woman of eternal confidence, right, confidence is something that ebbs and flows.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not there, it's not a destination.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: It's like you can't graduate confidence.
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: You can't get a gold star in confidence, but what you can do is build a practice around it, which is what I have done.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: So I understand the things that trigger my confidence to to start to reduce and the things that I need to do to get it back.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: I understand how to give my confidence to other people, how to create confidence in others, how to create conditions where people feel confident.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: So it's also a lot of stories from myself and other women who have really used these tools over long periods of time to see incredible change happen in their lives who inspires you, who do you look at and think, oh, they're really confident and in a in a good way.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: You know, you think that's what I would like to be like, or they've really inspired me I think so I try, and I try really hard, not to put people on pedestals, because I think the internet in particular is so guilty of showing us the kind of shiny showreel of a person without showing us the whole, the picture of the whole person.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: So I think I'm inspired by women who do brave things and who have the courage to do things even when they're unpopular.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: So, you know, people like Nicola Sturgeon, jacinda Ardern, kamala Harris, taylor Swift, you know, I think these women are.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: None of them are perfect.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: None of us are.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: We're all flawed human beings, but there's elements in each of their story that, you know, inspires me greatly as to the type of leader that I want to be, the type of communicator I want to be, the type of relationship I want to have with my partner, the type of mother that I want to be.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: But ultimately, you know, I'm measuring myself against myself, right?
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: That's the only I feel like that's the healthiest way to think about it.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: So am I doing work?
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Am I showing up every day in a way that makes me proud of myself?
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: Abso-fucking-lutely, and that's what feels most important.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: So is this your sixth business up front?
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: Did you say so?
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: What were you doing before?
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Was it something similar to this or not?
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: no.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: So the whirlwind version of the story is so I set up my first business straight after university.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've gone to university to study.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: You were born entrepreneur I am, but I I am and yeah, important for your listeners to understand.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: First, in my family to go to university yeah, a really poor town in scotland, um, did not go to a red brick university, had no role models of people building businesses and generating wealth around me.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: What I did have was an incredibly loving, supporting family mum who was a sales badass, like she was, always had a you know the phone cradled in between her shoulder and her ear, persuading people to buy something at some point.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: So you'll have internalized the sales pattern.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah she had great sales pattern and she always had like a 95 sales job and then she always always had side hustles.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: Like both, my mum and dad are closet artists.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: My mum is an incredible creative maker artist.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: My whole life she had side projects where she would create stunning dried flower arrangements.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: People would bring her the fabric from their curtains and their bedspread and she would make big, beautiful rag dolls made out of that fabric and, you know, getting paid cash in hand.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: So I'm like watching all this.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Then meanwhile my dad worked for our local council, had a desk job 95 and would come home at his lunch break and play Mozart on the piano and then at nights go and play keyboards at the same time in a wedding band.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: So he was gigging Friday night, saturday night, uh, to get that extra cash from his gigs.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: So I definitely grew up, were you an only child, or did you have siblings?
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: I have a brother who's three years younger than me, so we grew up around a very strong work ethic, I think, and I definitely have inherited like I'm a I'm a really hard worker.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: You're a grafter, sometimes to my detriment, and it's something that you know I'm.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: I'm working really hard worker.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: You're a grafter, sometimes to my detriment, and it's something that you know I'm.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: I'm working on and definitely aware of my tendency to slip into being a workaholic and slip into burnout.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Um, so, yeah, it's hard when it's your own business, though I think, yeah, not to keep picking it up we went to university thinking I want to be the next steve jobs, I'm going to product that will make me really rich, change the world and really quickly.
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: Into my education I discovered a discipline called service design, which was very emerging at the time, which is the notion that you know, all of the tools and strategies and frameworks we would use to design a physical product like a mobile phone or headphones are the same tools that we use to design services.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: And this was when I graduated in 2008,.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Customer experience design, employee experience design, design thinking, service design none of these things existed, or they did in very, very small pockets.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: None of these things existed, or they did in very, very small pockets.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: And so I set up, with a co-founder, one of Scotland's very first service design agencies and we were really focused on the public sector and that was a consultancy that I found one client, found another client, then found another client, hired one person, hired another person, and you know, know, that was my whole life.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: That was my 20s.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Every minute of every day was building that business business for nearly seven years.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: And then I was involved in various ventures.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: One was for the charity sector, where the team that I joined had raised money from the sector to build one business that would be owned by the charity sector to generate 250 million pounds of profit for the sector.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: So that was a lot of prototyping and coming up with business models and testing them and pitching them.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: And then I kind of got weary of working on the the service part, because often services, even if they're fantastic, fall down because the culture around them in the organization.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: So then I kind of shifted my attention to culture and leadership and built a business that was focused on using my design and innovation skills to help much more private sector kind of FTSE 100 companies design how they work.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: It's like how do you meet, how do you celebrate, how do you give feedback, what are your roles and rhythms and rituals?
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: And then I got weary of consulting.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: So then I joined a small startup as a CEO to help them raise capital and build a digital product, which was an app called Stride, and that was all about democratizing leadership development.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: And kind of halfway through that journey started Upfront as a side project.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Upfront was never supposed to be a business.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: There was no commercial model.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: It was really me putting a big red sofa on stage with me so people with stage fright could sit on the sofa and get over their stage fright, because I wanted more women to be on stage.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: And over time and over lots of prototyping and really listening and studying the market and listening to women, I realized there was a huge opportunity, a huge gap for something that was teaching women confidence starting from a place of.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: This is a societal problem, not an individual problem, and women are not the problem here.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: The world is, and this is a skill that we can all learn, and so it started as workshops, then it started as training programs and then I decided to build an online version, which has since then became our flagship product the bond and I went full-time four years ago so up front focus for four years.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: I missed a couple out.
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: I had a built an e-commerce business when I was pregnant.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we also built a coffee truck business at the start of covid.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: So yeah, look, I love, I love, love, love to start things, love to build things, love the like zero to nothing, zero pounds to a million pounds, like that first bit is where I just come alive and have so much fun and get so much energy.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Um, but now up front is very much out of that phase into the next stage.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: So that's where we're at at the moment wow, I love it.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: What a great story.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: You'll have to do an autobiography or something one day, so do you think will you always be involved in upfront, or do you think you've got another business in you?
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: oh, I've got loads of businesses in me.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: I've already planned what the next one's going to be.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: Um, I think I will always be involved it would be my hope in some capacity.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: But ultimately, you know, I want upfront to scale, to become a global organisation, which means building out a team that is very capable of building a global movement and a profitable engine behind that global movement, without requiring me to be there every day.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: Have you like?
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you like, I just love entrepreneurial books, podcasts and you know all that.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Have you been obsessed with that during your journey?
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: yes and no.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Like yes, I do, I do lap that stuff up.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: No, because I struggle with how male dominated it is, and no because I feel like in those moments I'm craving some downtime.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: It's like I want to kind of watch trash tv or read a good novel.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: So the thought of like go and listen to this podcast about market value proposition.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: I'm like nah, because I've worked really hard today so sometimes I have to be intentional about weaving it into my day so it's kind of feels like part of my work.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: But I definitely struggle with how male, how male-centered those stories are, how London-centric those stories are and also how it's focused on very traditional growth models you know of, like raising capital and 10x in three years or whatever it might be.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: So yeah, have you ever raised capital or have you been bootstrapped?
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: Upfront's totally bootstrapped, which I'm really really proud of, and we generated a million pounds in revenue in our first 23 months.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: That's crazy.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: We raised capital for the app that I spent some time working on, and I've also worked with various VC firms through some of the different businesses that I mentioned before.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: But yeah, we are.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: We are bootstrapped to date.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: Investments definitely on the table for one of the future directions of the company and it's something that we are always exploring, if you like it's quite nice that being bootstrapped, because I guess you don't have a boss in a way.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: You know, obviously you've got your customers and you want to service them.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: But you know, sometimes I've thought about that and I think, well, actually then you get a boss you don't maybe want.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: You know, you sort of set up a business not to have a boss and then if you've got an investor, that's like breathing down your neck.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think then it's about like absolutely you lose power and you gain pressure, but I think the challenge and the opportunity is to find an investor that you feel really aligned with, so that that partnership would actually feel exciting and full of possibility, rather than feeling like, oh no, no, I'm beholden to gay, I don't know I type all my sales figures out and feel sick or whatever, sending them to them.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Would you like to see Upfront in schools?
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, definitely, and it's a big part of our roadmap is building a bond for young girls.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: We currently have a boys bond in production.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: That is a bond that's for mothers and their young sons yeah uh, and we would.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: We would very much like to build a bond for young girls, because the most common piece of feedback we get from every single woman who does the bond is how?
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: How can I give this to my daughter?
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: What would you like us to do, because obviously we talked a bit about what we want to talk to tell our daughters.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: But what would you like us to tell our sons?
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: I would like you to tell your sons about the trick.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: Tell us about the trick.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: So that's a great segue into my children's book which is coming out this september, which I'm really excited about and a bit nervous because I'm self-publishing and I've never done that before and it is a children's book called taylor meets the trick, but actually it's a book for grown-ups, because it's about helping children and the grown-ups around them understand what the patriarchy is in a way that's really simple and engaging and full of hope and curiosity.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: So the story follows Taylor, who is inspired by my son, atlas, who has long blonde, curly hair nearly down to his waist now, so he often gets mistaken for a girl, and so in the story at first Taylor doesn't understand why people keep thinking he's a girl, and he then starts to notice all these kind of invisible rules about who gets to wear what colours, who gets to play with what toys.
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: And then Taylor's daddy introduces him to the trick, which is the-up rules that tell us that there's some rules for boys and there's some rules for girls, and once you see the trick and get curious about it, it loses all its power.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: So I wrote the book because I think kids experience these really limiting ideas from such a young age and they do notice the expectations and the double standards and the way people react when the boy wants to play with the barbie or the girl wants to play football.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: But they don't necessarily have the language and often the mums and dads don't have the language either.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: So this book is helping you name it, challenge it and create a vocabulary that all of your family can get behind.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, the trick is part of our daily vocabulary.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: In our house we've been talking to Atlas about the trick since he was two and now it's like we watch a movie.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: We're like, okay, where did we see the trick?
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: Well, why were all the men?
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Why were all the people who were riding the helicopters men?
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: And you know I was asking me last night for superhero comics and I'm like you know, I don't love the superhero culture because it's very tricky.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: It's very focused on men rescuing people, men having huge muscles, men using violence to win, to win arguments or or to win people over and like that's not great and it it gives me a language to have that conversation with him in a way that he immediately understands, and I know that I you have read it, so I've read it.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: It's good I know, and I'd love to know what your girls thought about it really good and I quite like because earlier, when you were saying just about noticing it and it's about like the black squiggles, isn't it on?
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: And you make it very simple and it's quite and it's an engaging story and I think it's also quite reassuring if your child is just starting school as well, because it's it's just all about like the nerves and things like that, isn't it?
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: And then you start school and there's even more rules that you seem to notice and you know inflicted on you and it's really it's tricky, isn't it?
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: It's tricky and how you navigate.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: That you know as a child and I guess it's that messaging, isn't it?
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: I remember watching something about schools and it was like five year olds and it was a male teacher and he was calling all the girls love and he wasn't calling it to the boy and he it wasn't nasty, it wasn't like it's just things, like it's things quite subtle things, isn't it like that as well?
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: very often.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: These things never come from a place of malice, no, but that doesn't make them okay yeah you know, I think the most powerful feedback that we're getting from early readers is the conversations that happen between mums and dads and the conversations that happen with granddads and grandmas, and the trip gives people language and a kind of lower stakes way to have that conversation yeah, it's not so charged.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: What about, like the teenage, like the andrew tate culture and things like that?
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: And it's hard, isn't it, if you're a teenager, to escape, I guess things like that.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: If you're being fed, that, like you know, if you're a boy being fed, you know hyper masculine influences on Instagram, like we've maybe fed weight loss and beauty products yeah, I think it's.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: It's very scary and very dangerous, and I know that Laura Batesy's new book is one to read, which is all about how you know the misogyny and the sexism around AI and the harm that that's causing women and girls I mean for me.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: I think that's why the trick has to exist and be in every household now.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: And early before every household.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: now because early before conversations need to happen early.
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: Um, and I think it's.
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: It's a complex conversation, right, because I see so much of the conversation become about mobile phones and the internet, which I think often miss the point of the focus is not the phone and the internet.
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: The focus is the misogyny.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: And you know we have far more power than we realize.
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: You know it's.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: I will be a parent and I am a parent who I've already told my son that he will not have a mobile phone until he's at least 16 yeah and I know that that's controversial and no no, no, I'm part of that.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: Um, I was talking to a friend this morning.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Actually, is it smartphone, smartphone free?
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, childhood, I always get you know smartphone free childhood.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: I am a member of that, but I wish that all schools.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: It's very hard, isn't it?
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Because she was saying, um, her daughter's year six and her daughter doesn't have a mobile, but the peer pressure is enormous and it is.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: It is hard, and I think that's when it becomes about lobbying schools and institutions and and taking a stand.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: You know, if every parent turned up and said my kid's not coming to this school anymore until you ban phones, they would quickly be banned yeah.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: I think we have much more power and agency than we realize, and I also think that teenagers in particular are far smarter and competent than society gives them credit for.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: It's like they are able to understand nuance and complex ideas, and often it's about the grown-ups being brave enough to have the uncomfortable conversation.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess that's where the confidence comes in being confident with feeling comfortable in certain situations and in certain conversations.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me today, lauren.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: I guess you know a final message to the listeners.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Um, you know what would you like, what would be the one thing you want them to take away from today's episode?
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: oh, that confidence is a muscle and you can.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: You can learn it, no matter who you are, no matter where you are.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: You can learn confidence, and I would really really love you to to get in touch with either me or Liz, like, tell us what you think of this conversation, because we've had this conversation for you, so, like, we want to know how has it helped you?
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: Is it brought questions for you?
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: Come find me on LinkedIn, find me on Instagram, do buy my children's book.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: Would love to continue the conversation and your bond.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: So they're free for people on maternity leave?
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: yep, so if you go to careupfrontcom, you'll see how you can join a bond, how it works.
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: If you work for an organization, you can send us an email and we can make a bond happen for your team wow, exciting.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much, lauren, for joining me today.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you, bye, bye.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to another episode of the work.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: It like a mum podcast.
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: If you're on linkedin, please send me a connection request at elizabeth willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.