Latest / Inside Politics / Anger in the aftermath: Albanese and the Bondi attack

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Anger in the aftermath: Albanese and the Bondi attack · Inside Politics

0:00
S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
0:03
S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. This week it
0:08
S1: feels wrong, actually, to talk about politics in the wake
0:11
S1: of the horrific anti-Semitic massacre at Bondi Beach on Sunday.
0:16
S1: Australians and Sydneysiders in particular are still trying to make
0:19
S1: sense of the senseless. But the fact is that the
0:23
S1: response to the massacre has been deeply political and things
0:26
S1: got divisive very quickly. So this week on Inside Politics,
0:30
S1: we are going to discuss the political response to the
0:33
S1: incident and how it might affect our national life in
0:36
S1: the months and the years to come. My podcast partner,
0:40
S1: Paul Satchell is on leave this week, but happily, I
0:42
S1: am joined instead by political correspondent Natassia Chrysanthos. Hello Tas,
0:46
S1: how are you?
0:47
S2: Hey, Jack. I'm all right. How are you?
0:50
S1: Yeah, I'm fine, thank you. Tas, you. As we record,
0:53
S1: you've just come out of the Prime Minister's press conference
0:56
S1: on Thursday afternoon. He, of course, has been under sustained
1:00
S1: pressure and criticism all week, some of it extremely pointed
1:03
S1: and personal for not doing enough to prevent this tragedy
1:06
S1: or to tackle anti-Semitism in general. What did he say
1:10
S1: in this press conference which was given in Parliament House
1:12
S1: in the prime ministerial courtyard? So the full force of
1:16
S1: the authority of the office, if you like.
1:18
S2: Mhm. So he came out with the special envoy for anti-Semitism,
1:23
S2: Julian Segal, Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke, Education Minister Jason
1:27
S2: Clare and AFP Commissioner Krissy Barrett. And they stepped out
1:34
S2: and announced a that that they'd be implementing Gillian Segal's
1:39
S2: full report into anti-Semitism, which was handed to the government
1:42
S2: in July this year.
1:44
S3: The Australian government adopts and fully supports the plan to
1:47
S3: combat anti-Semitism. We have already legislated for hate speech, hate crime.
1:53
S2: As well as a suite of other law reform efforts
1:56
S2: to crack down on hate speech, and specifically hate preachers,
2:02
S2: as well as a new taskforce to look at the
2:06
S2: education system wholesale and how it's dealing with anti-Semitism and
2:10
S2: make recommendations to improve it.
2:12
S4: Children aren't born antisemitic. Children aren't born racist. Children aren't
2:18
S4: born with hate in their hearts. This is something that's taught.
2:22
S4: This is something that's learnt. There's lots of things that
2:25
S4: we need to do to tackle and weed out anti-Semitism.
2:29
S4: But what we do in education is an important part
2:32
S4: of that in preventing it, in tackling it, in responding
2:36
S4: to it. And that includes.
2:38
S2: The noteworthy things about today is one, it does look
2:41
S2: like a kind of strong offering in terms of action
2:46
S2: that the government will move towards in the short to
2:48
S2: medium term and be a bit of a tone shift. Now,
2:54
S2: this came more in the questions section of the press conference.
2:57
S2: So it was in the second kind of improvised component,
3:00
S2: where the Prime Minister faced a bunch of questions around
3:05
S2: whether the action he was taking was too late, and
3:08
S2: then also questions around the degree of personal responsibility that
3:15
S2: he took or assumed for what happened on Sunday. And
3:20
S2: for the first time, we heard him kind of, I guess,
3:25
S2: accept a degree of responsibility for his own role as
3:29
S2: prime minister.
3:31
S3: So I, of course, acknowledged that more could have been done,
3:36
S3: and I accept my responsibility for the part in that
3:39
S3: as Prime Minister of Australia. But what I also do
3:43
S3: is accept my responsibility to lead the nation and unite
3:47
S3: the nation.
3:48
S2: It wasn't a full throated apology or admission of responsibility
3:53
S2: by any means, but I think he did move toward
3:56
S2: a bit more of a kind of conciliatory, humble tone
4:00
S2: around this, where I think earlier in the week and
4:04
S2: in the immediate aftermath, he spoke a lot more defensively
4:08
S2: about the action his government had taken and what it
4:11
S2: had done. And it is true the government has done
4:13
S2: a bunch of things on anti-Semitism in the last couple
4:16
S2: of years, but crucially, the community has consistently been asking
4:20
S2: for more. So it's that balance has not been totally
4:23
S2: blind to it, but nor has he. He followed the
4:25
S2: path that it was, for example, set out for him
4:28
S2: by the antisemitism envoy, Jillian Segal. She had a bunch
4:32
S2: of recommendations. The government's kind of moved along with some
4:35
S2: of them without issuing a formal response to that report. Now,
4:40
S2: there were elements in that report that were quite controversial
4:42
S2: and did raise alarm bells among people in academia, among
4:45
S2: people in the arts and cultural sector about how it
4:49
S2: rubbed up against free speech and the degree of intervention
4:53
S2: that was recommended there. You know, there are there are
4:55
S2: recommendations around stripping funding from arts institutions, for For example.
4:59
S1: Yeah, arts institutions and universities or indeed anyone who takes
5:03
S1: public funding that fails to stamp out anti-Semitism. And that
5:06
S1: could be very broadly interpreted, I guess. So, yeah, some
5:09
S1: of those recommendations in that report were controversial. And one
5:12
S1: gets the feeling now that the controversial ones were the
5:15
S1: ones that the government were sort of happy to sit
5:17
S1: on and to sort of let idle. And obviously now
5:20
S1: it's come to the fore because of this horrific attack,
5:22
S1: and they have to do something about it. So it's
5:24
S1: forced their arm in a way. But they do. You know,
5:27
S1: I think Albanese probably has looked like his arm has
5:30
S1: been forced a little bit, as you say, the apology
5:33
S1: or the expression of regret that he gave was very
5:35
S1: much in the passive voice. You know, there could have
5:38
S1: always been something more to be done. It wasn't they
5:41
S1: weren't I statements. I wonder if that will be enough
5:44
S1: to sort of hold off the criticism. And it's been
5:46
S1: vociferous criticism, particularly from elements of, you know, I guess
5:52
S1: former treasurer Josh Frydenberg and the News Corp media has
5:55
S1: been really, really hard on him. Do you think it will?
5:59
S2: Oh, and the federal opposition has also been, especially on Wednesday,
6:04
S2: really escalated its kind of political attack on the government.
6:10
S2: And I think that has been noted in the community.
6:13
S2: You know how in after previous tragedies or disasters, you know,
6:17
S2: you I think Australians generally expect a degree of bipartisanship
6:21
S2: in the approach. And John Howard was really the first
6:25
S2: person out the door on Tuesday with a very scathing
6:30
S2: commentary on the Prime minister.
6:32
S5: And there's little doubt that since October the 7th, 2023,
6:41
S5: not enough has been done by those who command authority
6:47
S5: and respect in our society to prevent, cauterize and denounce
6:52
S5: the spread of anti-Semitism. And I hope that.
6:57
S2: And then a day later, you had formal Liberal Treasurer
7:01
S2: Josh Frydenberg, who is Jewish. Go to the Bondi Pavilion
7:06
S2: and also deliver his his remarks, which took it up
7:11
S2: a notch again and said that the Prime Minister needed
7:13
S2: to accept personal responsibility for the deaths of 15 people.
7:18
S6: Our Prime Minister, our government has allowed Australia to be
7:23
S6: radicalised on his watch. It's time for him to accept
7:29
S6: personal responsibility for the death of 15 innocent people, including
7:35
S6: a ten year old child.
7:37
S1: Just on that particular comment. I mean, that is an
7:40
S1: extraordinary thing to say, isn't it? It's it's horribly offensive.
7:44
S1: I would have thought to the Prime Minister. Um, it's
7:47
S1: quite an extraordinary ratcheting up of rhetoric that we see
7:51
S1: three days after a terrible, terrible attack when emotions are very,
7:54
S1: very high. It's understandable that you would be feeling very,
7:57
S1: very upset. But to me that was quite an extraordinary statement.
8:01
S1: I just I don't think I've ever heard anything like
8:04
S1: that in our politics previously.
8:06
S2: Mhm. Mhm. And he was, he was you know pointing
8:10
S2: to the site of the massacres as well. Um it
8:14
S2: did not beat around the bush. I think it's you
8:18
S2: know on the one hand there is an impression that
8:22
S2: perhaps people have expected more of Albanese. You know, there
8:25
S2: hasn't been the image of him consoling the community or
8:30
S2: families or, you know, with people. He's kind of painted
8:34
S2: a bit of a solitary figure that, you know, he
8:37
S2: went he went early on Monday, the morning after to
8:40
S2: lay flowers at Bondi. But at that point he was
8:42
S2: kind of on his own. He gave a speech at
8:46
S2: Saint Mary's Cathedral on Wednesday night at a multi-faith, you know, memorial,
8:51
S2: and he was held to account there as well. There
8:53
S2: were rabbis there saying, you know, we expect the government
8:55
S2: to do more. Um, so he was he was taking
8:58
S2: in that feedback in a very public place. But again,
9:00
S2: it was a it was a very kind of controlled environment.
9:05
S2: There is a real visceral fury directed at Anthony Albanese from,
9:11
S2: you know, elements of the Jewish community that predates this event. So,
9:15
S2: you know, it would be an incredibly hostile reception for him.
9:19
S2: There's a question as to whether he should have just
9:21
S2: gone and copped that anyway. And I think that's the
9:23
S2: optics that people are picking up on. But then on
9:25
S2: the other side, even if that is the case, do
9:28
S2: Australians expect, you know, the leader of the opposition and
9:32
S2: former leaders, former prime ministers, former treasurers to lead a
9:40
S2: very political response to this, or do they expect a
9:45
S2: version of leadership that lends itself more toward, you know,
9:49
S2: harmony and social cohesion, particularly in the immediate aftermath of
9:53
S2: such an event?
9:54
S1: Not to be too sort of political about it, but
9:56
S1: where is Sussan Ley been in all of this because,
9:58
S1: as you say, we saw John Howard unexpectedly pop up
10:01
S1: and do a walk around and call a press conference.
10:03
S1: I mean, John Howard's a private citizen these days. Same
10:07
S1: with Josh Frydenberg. He's no longer involved in politics, ostensibly.
10:10
S1: And yet he he popped up, gave this sort of fiery,
10:13
S1: extremely sort of moving speech at the site down at Bondi.
10:18
S1: Is Susan Lee being sort of crowded out a little
10:20
S1: bit by these former liberal figures?
10:24
S2: I don't she obviously doesn't have the same kind of
10:27
S2: gravitas or clout as a, as an opposition and a
10:31
S2: relatively new opposition leader at that. Um, but we I
10:36
S2: think we've seen her try and match them, particularly after
10:39
S2: Howard came out like straight after Sunday, she offered her
10:43
S2: bipartisan support to the government. In essence, if it did
10:47
S2: want to make kind of immediate changes in the aftermath
10:50
S2: on Monday, I thought she kind of thread the needle
10:55
S2: quite delicately. Um, she did say, but also in a
11:01
S2: more passive way. You know, enough hasn't been done on
11:03
S2: anti-Semitism in the last two years. The government has been
11:06
S2: warned about this and so forth. But she wouldn't. For example,
11:08
S2: she was asked whether she supported Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin
11:12
S2: Netanyahu's comments, which accused Albanese of pouring fuel on the
11:18
S2: fire of anti-Semitism or something. And Lee didn't buy in.
11:23
S2: She kind of she kept those remarks removed enough from
11:28
S2: appearing overly political, I would say. But then I think
11:33
S2: as as more information came to light about the context
11:37
S2: of the attack as the kind of white hot fury
11:40
S2: of people in the Jewish community was being delivered and
11:44
S2: expressed to Lee and her frontbench as John Howard went
11:48
S2: out and made these quite remarkable comments. On Wednesday, you
11:52
S2: saw Susan Lee kind of step up to the plate
11:55
S2: and escalate her commentary about the government saying it had
11:59
S2: failed Jewish Australians and Albanese had failed Jewish Australians. And
12:02
S2: if I was prime minister, you know, she stood at
12:04
S2: Bondi and said, If I'm Prime Minister, I will do this.
12:07
S1: Yeah, I don't think there's any doubt that people like
12:09
S1: John Howard and Josh Frydenberg and perhaps Sussan Ley as well,
12:12
S1: are definitely channelling and speaking the anger of, you know,
12:16
S1: segments of the Jewish community. There's no doubt about that.
12:19
S1: And the emotion is real and the and the rage
12:22
S1: is real. And I don't for any minute sort of
12:24
S1: diminish that rage. But it has been quite notable, I think,
12:27
S1: how quickly this has escalated into what looks pretty heavily
12:32
S1: partisan at a time when, as you say, you would
12:35
S1: hope that everybody would come together. I want to talk
12:37
S1: about gun control because that was something that was mentioned
12:40
S1: early on, it seems, seemed to me pretty uncontroversial that
12:44
S1: you would maybe ask a few questions about why someone
12:47
S1: who's living in outer suburban Sydney would be able to
12:49
S1: have six huge guns registered to their name, particularly when
12:52
S1: their son has been, has attracted the attention of intelligence Authorities,
12:57
S1: but John Howard quashed that very much on Tuesday when
13:00
S1: he sort of said that any talk of gun control
13:02
S1: was a distraction from the real issue, which is anti-Semitism.
13:06
S1: We then saw that line very much taken up and
13:08
S1: run with by the News Corp opinion makers. Like when
13:10
S1: I looked at the Australian, you know, pretty much all
13:13
S1: week that that exact line has been been run. Albanese
13:16
S1: talked about gun control early on, and Chris Minns, the
13:19
S1: New South Wales premier, has talked about it too, and
13:21
S1: said that it can do with some tightening up. But
13:23
S1: then he's kind of dropped it now hasn't he. Like
13:25
S1: he didn't mention it at all on Thursday with this
13:27
S1: big press conference.
13:29
S2: Mhm. And I imagine that is a kind of reflection
13:33
S2: of that feedback and the political attack. Like I think
13:38
S2: if he had gone up and spoken again all day
13:40
S2: about gun reform, when there are obvious questions that remain,
13:43
S2: for example, about the anti-Semitism envoy's response and, and how
13:48
S2: it approached hate speech legislation and all of that, it
13:50
S2: would have looked like he was missing on these difficult topics.
13:53
S2: So it was, I think, a gear shift that responded
13:56
S2: to the situation that he's found himself in.
13:58
S1: What about. I mean, all of this is important, but
14:01
S1: it is not sort of the central cause, if you like,
14:06
S1: which is, you know, in previous times we would have
14:08
S1: probably would have treated this as a pure radicalization and
14:12
S1: extremism sort of problem. And that has been part of
14:16
S1: the conversation. This is a kind of different order of
14:19
S1: attack because it was so large, so bloody, so senseless
14:23
S1: and cruel, and it was very much targeting the Jewish community,
14:26
S1: but it was also an act of terror and extremism.
14:29
S1: We've had those before in Australia. What about the security agencies,
14:33
S1: the intelligence sharing, even the local policing, not to mention
14:37
S1: the immigration policing? Has that been sort of enough of
14:41
S1: a part of the conversation, or what does the Prime
14:42
S1: Minister and the government said about that?
14:45
S2: I think, well, particularly what they said on Thursday reflected
14:50
S2: the process that all these things go through, which is,
14:54
S2: you know, there was a lot of information that came
14:55
S2: out through leaks from law enforcement sources and forthright information
15:00
S2: from the government as well, about what we knew about
15:03
S2: these two men, where they'd been, what might have motivated them.
15:06
S2: Now that one of the attackers is now facing criminal charges,
15:10
S2: there is a kind of legal limit to what will
15:13
S2: be said in terms of revealing more about what motivated them,
15:18
S2: their movements, and as a result, any kind of, you know,
15:22
S2: failures or shortcomings of of agencies or police.
15:26
S1: But we did. I think it's worth pointing out that
15:28
S1: in the first press conference, and admittedly, it was right
15:30
S1: after right after the event, the first press conference with
15:33
S1: with Chris Minns, the New South Wales Premier and the
15:37
S1: police commissioner in New South Wales, Mal Lanyon, they said that, um,
15:41
S1: you know, these people were not known to the New
15:44
S1: South Wales Police as any kind of security risk. Well,
15:47
S1: we've seen a fair bit of reporting since that shows
15:50
S1: that actually they were flagged as a sort of security risk. Or,
15:54
S1: you know, some people say that the sun was sort
15:56
S1: of looked over and and examined. And then basically he
15:59
S1: was decided not to be a risk. I think there
16:01
S1: will be questions that are asked about that. And in
16:03
S1: one sense, the focus on anti-Semitism, which is right and necessary,
16:08
S1: shouldn't take away from whatever security and intelligence mistakes or
16:14
S1: missteps or misconnections have been made.
16:18
S2: Yeah. And I think, like, I think the focus on anti-Semitism,
16:22
S2: like obviously reacts the targeted nature of this attack and
16:26
S2: the fact that it it was directed at one section
16:28
S2: of the community and that is the the part of
16:32
S2: the community that is in, you know, the deepest grief.
16:38
S2: I think that that conversation is is taking hold, particularly
16:41
S2: at a political level, because of the broader context of
16:47
S2: the last two years. And so, in some ways, it's like,
16:50
S2: as people have spoken about it, like this attack is
16:52
S2: exactly what they had feared.
16:54
S1: Yeah, it's the combination.
16:55
S2: Of that, that kind of it's just it's also just,
16:58
S2: you know, woken up this conversation or this political kind
17:02
S2: of dilemma that's been dormant on and off over the
17:04
S2: last two years around just how unsafe people in the
17:07
S2: Jewish community feel and their frustration and impatience with the
17:11
S2: government on that. And so I guess that that conversation
17:15
S2: is kind of and the tenor of it has existed
17:17
S2: without this event. And so there are the kind of
17:21
S2: those two things happening at once at a certain level,
17:23
S2: but they've obviously been brought together in a very intense way.
17:27
S1: Yeah, yeah. And I think, I mean, apart from the
17:29
S1: extremism and the clear sort of what looks very much
17:33
S1: like radicalization that's occurred with the with the alleged perpetrators,
17:36
S1: as you say, there's the separate issue of probably the
17:40
S1: normalization of anti-Semitism, which has coincided with the rise of,
17:44
S1: you know, the pro-Palestinian movement or the anti-Israel movement, the protests.
17:49
S1: And the fact has been that Jewish Australians, particularly, I think,
17:53
S1: in Sydney and Melbourne, have felt unsafe. They felt unwelcome
17:57
S1: in certain spaces like university campuses, perhaps even some cultural institutions.
18:02
S1: So it's had this huge ripple effect, and now we're
18:05
S1: having a reckoning about it because we can't ignore it
18:08
S1: anymore and we can't sweep it under the carpet anymore.
18:11
S1: So yeah, Jewish Australians are rightfully sort of angry about that.
18:14
S1: I guess to some. I just want to ask you
18:16
S1: quickly about the immigration debate, because that's also been in there,
18:20
S1: and I think there's probably a lot of people who
18:22
S1: are bracing a little bit for what might come in
18:26
S1: terms of will the immigration debate now get a bit ugly?
18:29
S1: The coalition was already sort of was actually preparing to
18:32
S1: release its immigration policy, I think, this week. And they've
18:35
S1: now said they'll put that off for obvious reasons. Where
18:38
S1: do you think the immigration debate is going to go
18:40
S1: from now? Because we were already talking about it and
18:42
S1: now this has happened. It feels like a bit of
18:45
S1: a sort of match to match to a Tinder situation.
18:48
S2: Yes, yes. I think that the government has also tried
18:51
S2: to get on the front foot of that one with
18:53
S2: its announcement that it will kind of change the threshold
18:56
S2: or lower the threshold for canceling visas and refusing visas
19:01
S2: on the grounds of kind of incitement to violence and antisemitism.
19:06
S2: You know, Tony Burke has already been proactive in saying
19:11
S2: for the last six months that he has cancelled more
19:14
S2: visas on character grounds than most other ministers.
19:17
S7: Have refused and canceled visas on the grounds of anti-Semitism
19:22
S7: in a way that very few predecessors have. I don't
19:25
S7: resile from that, and I've made clear on the balance
19:29
S7: of bigotry versus freedom of speech. Uh, I, I think
19:34
S7: Australians share my view that people who come here to hate, uh,
19:37
S7: we just don't need them.
19:39
S1: And he kicked a Nazi out of the country a
19:42
S1: few weeks ago.
19:43
S2: So there have been these kind of big, you know,
19:45
S2: they feel kind of like a bit of a performance
19:48
S2: in terms of this very public standard setting. And so
19:51
S2: you've got that kind of continuing. I think the coalition's
19:55
S2: kind of been running. It's, you know, doing its own
19:58
S2: thing on immigration. That was put on pause this week.
20:03
S2: I think we are seeing the conversation being stoked in
20:06
S2: the coalition, uh, moving from it's not just a conversation
20:11
S2: about how many people are coming to Australia, the conversation
20:14
S2: about who is coming to Australia. Of course, of the
20:19
S2: two shooters, the father came in the late 90s under
20:23
S2: the Howard government on a student visa from India. The
20:26
S2: son was born in Australia. As many point out, Ahmed
20:31
S2: Al Ahmed, the person who tried to stop them, is
20:33
S2: the most recent recent migrant of the bunch. A lot
20:37
S2: of the people there in the Jewish community that day
20:41
S2: were migrants from Russia and Eastern Europe. I don't think
20:46
S2: this event has really given a clean let's blame the
20:50
S2: migrants narrative.
20:52
S1: No, no, I mean, but but let's be real. I mean,
20:55
S1: let's cut to the chase. There will be some people
20:56
S1: who basically say that we shouldn't bring in Muslim migrants.
21:00
S1: I mean, that's that's the only thing that people are
21:01
S1: going to say or that we should be we should
21:04
S1: be screening Muslim migrants for extreme views, anti-Semitism, you know,
21:08
S1: things that are.
21:09
S2: It would be interesting to see how explicit I think
21:11
S2: it gets because the, the.
21:14
S1: Yeah.
21:14
S2: You know, even the in the Parliament, the, the furthest
21:17
S2: that people will go is to say people need to
21:19
S2: agree with Australian values and, you know, even Jacinta Price's
21:22
S2: comms material. Last week she sent out an email about
21:25
S2: this to her subscribers and spoke about the character of
21:29
S2: people coming. But, you know, there are good people from Asia,
21:32
S2: from Europe who are in our country, etc. so there
21:35
S2: are just so many euphemisms in this conversation, I think.
21:38
S2: But as we know, the problem is how that message
21:42
S2: is felt by people in migrant communities and multicultural communities
21:45
S2: who do kind of read between the lines with that one,
21:49
S2: and then what that does to the social fabric. And
21:51
S2: that will be a real challenge for Susan Lee as well. Because.
21:55
S2: Because she has been trying to.
21:56
S1: Yeah, absolutely.
21:58
S2: Land the right tone in a way that doesn't push
22:02
S2: people away. And that is still inclusive on this one.
22:06
S2: And yes, like you said, there's a little bit of
22:08
S2: a tinderbox here.
22:09
S1: Yeah. And the Liberal Party obviously needs to to be
22:12
S1: careful with ethnic communities because they've lost support there as
22:16
S1: well as in other areas in recent times. Um, thank
22:19
S1: you for joining us today to talk through these very
22:21
S1: heavy events. We've tried to be as sensitive as possible
22:24
S1: to all sides, um, while maintaining our usual rigor of analysis.
22:28
S1: I hope you'll join us next year in happier circumstances,
22:32
S1: I hope. And, um, have a good summer break.
22:34
S2: Thanks, Jack, and thanks, listeners.
22:39
S1: I want to say farewell. Merry Christmas and Happy holidays
22:42
S1: to our Inside Politics listeners, alongside deep, deep condolences from
22:46
S1: this podcast to the Australian Jewish community. We do so
22:50
S1: enjoy putting this podcast together and we very much appreciate
22:54
S1: your support. This is our last record of the year,
22:56
S1: but over summer, we will be putting out a reprise
22:58
S1: of the best episodes of 2025 before we return in
23:01
S1: late January. Thank you very much and see you in 2026.
23:09
S1: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong with technical assistance
23:12
S1: from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and
23:16
S1: special thanks to Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. To listen
23:20
S1: to our episodes as soon as they drop, follow Inside
23:23
S1: Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you listen to
23:26
S1: your podcasts. To stay up to date with all the politics,
23:29
S1: news and exclusives, visit The Age and The Sydney Morning
23:33
S1: Herald websites. To support our journalism, subscribe to us by
23:37
S1: visiting The Age or smh.com.au. I'm Jacqueline Maley, thanks for listening.