Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / Judging Horror Stories - Why Treatment On Events Needs an Industry-Wide Overhaul! - Part 2

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Judging Horror Stories - Why Treatment On Events Needs an Industry-Wide Overhaul! - Part 2 · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

0:07
SPEAKER_03: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
0:10
SPEAKER_03: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
0:13
SPEAKER_03: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
0:15
SPEAKER_03: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
0:28
SPEAKER_01: I am Making the Impact listeners.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to part two of our season seven finale episode, Judging Horror Stories.
0:36
SPEAKER_01: Why treatment on events need an industry-wide overhaul.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: If you listen to part one, you heard us pull back the curtain on some of the realities of life behind the judging table.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: From long hours and challenging work conditions, our guests and IDA judges Rob Gibbs and Brittany Johnson shared some honest and eye-opening perspectives.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: But there is so much more to this conversation.
0:58
SPEAKER_01: Part two will be continuing the combo with even more stories, opinions, and anonymous submissions from judges across the country.
1:06
SPEAKER_01: Some of these experiences may surprise you, some may validate things you've suspected for years, and some may spark important conversations about the future of our industry.
1:16
SPEAKER_01: Whether you're a dancer, parent, studio owner, competition director, or fellow judge, this episode offers a rare glimpse into the side of the competition world that audiences rarely get to see.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: Making Impact Season 7 wraps on May 28th.
1:31
SPEAKER_01: But don't worry, we are hard at work planning the launch of season 8 for Thursday, September 3rd, 2026.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: While you wait for season 8, we hope you enjoy part two of judging horror stories.
1:42
SPEAKER_01: Let's jump on in.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: They said, We were given McDonald's for meals.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: We had 15-hour days.
2:01
SPEAKER_01: We were going out of order left and right, sitting there waiting.
2:05
SPEAKER_01: We were sitting all weekend on metal folding chairs, and I even had to provide my own water for the weekend.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: And I only made$200 a day.
2:16
SPEAKER_03: Your own water?
2:17
SPEAKER_01: I have heard multiple judges that wouldn't give you water.
2:21
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: Because it'll make you pee.
2:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, I wasn't told why, other than that, we just didn't bring it.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: But I was at a competition that's been around, I think, for a hundred years that everybody knows.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: And I showed up to judge for them.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: We were at a convention center, and I said, Hey, can I have a water to get started on my Friday night?
2:40
SPEAKER_00: And they were like, Oh, we don't, we don't have any water, but the convention sells water.
2:44
SPEAKER_00: You can go out and get a water.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: They were$525 a bottle.
2:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: So if I'm working a 36-hour weekend, I don't know how many bottles of water that is.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: It's not two.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: So, like, and I had to pay for it.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: And I I was on, I was booked for three weekends for that competition.
3:01
SPEAKER_00: And after my first weekend, I sent an email and I said, I'm so sorry, you can remove me from the other two.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: I can't, I can't pay.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, the tax write-off that I would get for putting that on my taxes, like, is not enough.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: I can't pay for my own water to talk on the mic for 36 hours a week or 36 hours a weekend.
3:19
SPEAKER_01: I have another one that's similar, and I wanted to say it really fast is again another non-IDA judge who reached out.
3:25
SPEAKER_01: The pay was so low and was based on how many entries you judged, not days worked.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: For example, I traveled on a Friday, judged half a day on Saturday, then took the first flight out Sunday morning.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: Three days were invested, but I was paid for half a day.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: You received no financial assistance in getting yourself to and from the airport.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: Some weekends were such low pay that I was out of pocket after I paid for my Ubers to the airport.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: And on top of that, the meals provided at one venue was a concession voucher of twelve dollars, which was enough for me to buy popcorn and a water.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: Like what truly, when you hear something like that, what is going on?
4:07
SPEAKER_01: What is going on?
4:08
SPEAKER_01: Any any industry can hear that and say, whoa, this is completely unacceptable.
4:13
SPEAKER_03: I mean, a baseball team, a soccer match, like anybody who would be coming in to like be a professional person in any sort of team entity like this, it's like that's not appropriate for anybody.
4:25
SPEAKER_04: I don't know whenever the I'm sure Court, you can correct me.
4:30
SPEAKER_04: Like the the being paid by entry number is helpful because it's it's almost always you know, when you get to large group production numbers, you're gonna go over because of costume changes, because of scheduling issues or whatever.
4:46
SPEAKER_04: So then you're adding on an extra hour or two hours, let's say it's a nationals and you're you know you're judging over eleven hundred entries per week, but then you're working 17 hours per day for five days a week because nobody could get their set pieces on on stage in less than five minutes and then takes 20 minutes to break it down.
5:08
SPEAKER_04: So then you're just sitting there from for for days.
5:11
SPEAKER_04: You're just sitting for days, right?
5:13
SPEAKER_04: And it and you thought, oh, this is gonna be so easy.
5:15
SPEAKER_04: Our schedule is is eight to five every day.
5:18
SPEAKER_04: It's this many numbers, I'm gonna get paid this much, and then you do walk away with that many, that much pay, or numbers get dropped, and the competitions are also trying to save a buck and they and they're cutting your pay of what Britney said that you like budgeted for from November of last year for May of this year.
5:35
SPEAKER_04: Yep.
5:36
SPEAKER_04: And you're like, well, shoot, this is this was on my budget scale, and it's now$300 less because a production number, uh, you know, a full studio pulled out.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: It's not our fault that your customer scratched a number.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: I still showed up.
5:51
SPEAKER_04: I'm sure they still get their money.
5:52
SPEAKER_04: I'm sure that exactly they're protected.
5:55
SPEAKER_04: That studio probably then has like a a credit for season.
5:58
SPEAKER_04: They're still making sure they're coming back.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: But we are get we lost a few dollars of our entry pay because someone scratched, and you're really like, you're not gonna be nice enough to honor what you quoted the weekend at.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: Like to me, that's just so penny pinching.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean, come on, we have given you our whole weekend, and we are gonna again take all of these hits at post-weekend of getting bashed left and right, and you can't even pay me five extra dollars.
6:28
SPEAKER_03: Like, if y'all think it's not everywhere, it's everywhere.
6:31
SPEAKER_03: I avoid Facebook on Mondays for that this time of year for that specific reason.
6:34
SPEAKER_03: And it's hard to do that.
6:35
SPEAKER_03: I even I got a really nice uh message the other day from a teacher whose dances I judged, and she sent me this, you know, lovely message, thanking me for my feedback.
6:43
SPEAKER_03: And like, I'm a judge who introduces myself by name on my critique because like you need to know who I am.
6:48
SPEAKER_03: I'm not some rando judge number four.
6:51
SPEAKER_03: Like I am Leslie Mueller and I'm from New York and I'm judging your kids.
6:54
SPEAKER_03: Like, look me up, you know.
6:55
SPEAKER_03: Like I want to stand behind what I do.
6:57
SPEAKER_03: Right.
6:58
SPEAKER_03: And that's but that's why I really enjoyed this piece of feedback that I got from somebody because she was willing to take the time to thank me.
7:04
SPEAKER_03: And I really wanted to make a post actually this week saying, like, listen, I know we're all guilty of this.
7:09
SPEAKER_03: Like, you go on Facebook or on Google to write a rant about why your service was bad somewhere.
7:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:15
SPEAKER_03: Nobody, a lot of people don't go on and write their good experience.
7:18
SPEAKER_03: But I would love to encourage studio owners out there and teachers, if you got a good critique from somebody, please either reach out to them directly, reach out at the competition and tell them, or post it publicly, because we don't hear that.
7:30
SPEAKER_03: All, you know, a lot of judges, I'm sure, show up every weekend, do their job, and go home and never, ever, ever hear, thank you, or I loved what you said, or that was really helpful to me.
7:40
SPEAKER_03: You have to sit and believe in yourself.
7:42
SPEAKER_03: And like, you know, for some of us who have done this for a really long time, like, and I don't, I'm not in a studio regularly.
7:47
SPEAKER_03: So I second guess myself constantly, like, God, was that good?
7:50
SPEAKER_03: Was that enough?
7:51
SPEAKER_03: Right.
7:51
SPEAKER_03: You know, and yeah, I can't hear what I can't hear Rob next to me or Britney next to me.
7:54
SPEAKER_03: I got earplugs in.
7:55
SPEAKER_03: I'm not listening to what you're saying.
7:56
SPEAKER_03: So I'm over here looking at Rob and he's talking a mile a minute.
7:59
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, oh my God, is are they gonna think his critiques are really, really good and mine are crap?
8:03
SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm always hoping that I'm doing the best job I can.
8:06
SPEAKER_03: And when somebody finally says, I appreciate what you gave me that was helpful, whew, load off of my shoulders.
8:12
SPEAKER_03: So, like, yes, there's bad stuff out there, and like there are bad judges out there who don't do anything because they're tired and hungry.
8:18
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
8:19
SPEAKER_03: Maybe it's not their fault, maybe it is.
8:20
SPEAKER_03: But like for those of us who who really, really want to do a good job, it feels really nice to hear that you've done a good job.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: We're putting a lot of time and energy in.
8:30
SPEAKER_04: Go round.
8:30
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's it's 2026 and people are obsessed with social media.
8:34
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I get messages all the time, even if I'm not judging, if I'm there teaching a master class or you know, even this season I've I've also been like backstage manager.
8:44
SPEAKER_04: I get tons of messages every week, which I'm so so appreciative of.
8:48
SPEAKER_04: But I to my well, in my experience, talking to competition directors previously, like if a studio has a good weekend, the studio director or owner will email the company and say, This is this was nice or this was great, or they'll say it at the like the meet and greet, or if there's like an exit.
9:09
SPEAKER_04: Um, at the end of the competition, uh, studio directors, I know it's like super popular now to just like go up and be like, Thank you for everything.
9:15
SPEAKER_04: This is wonderful.
9:16
SPEAKER_04: Or if you don't hear from them, then the studio, I mean the competition directors are probably fearful that they weren't happy.
9:21
SPEAKER_04: Right.
9:21
SPEAKER_04: I I mean, like talking about like Leslie, you're just like always sitting in fear that you're like, oh shoot, did I say this wrong to this child?
9:30
SPEAKER_04: Like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna stunt their growth, I don't want to stifle their their artistry, but like this is dangerous, or you know, like this is wildly inappropriate, or you know, like I mean the costume issue.
9:45
SPEAKER_04: I know that this is not the the podcast, but like the costume issue is uh beyond my understanding uh uh of my comfortability level as a male-identifying dance competition judge over the last several years.
9:58
SPEAKER_04: Like I am bewildered incessantly uh of the fact that these people are showing up and allowing these these children to to dress like this.
10:08
SPEAKER_04: And then it's like, well, then you know, then somebody's gonna come back and be like, why are you looking at my kid like that?
10:14
SPEAKER_02: Right.
10:14
SPEAKER_04: You know, and I'm like, well, well, no, that's what I'm getting paid to do.
10:16
SPEAKER_04: And also, the this is my job.
10:18
SPEAKER_04: This is this is my job.
10:20
SPEAKER_04: And it's also my opinion.
10:21
SPEAKER_04: You're literally paying for my opinion.
10:23
SPEAKER_04: Right.
10:23
SPEAKER_04: It's a very educated opinion.
10:25
SPEAKER_04: I went to school for this, right?
10:27
SPEAKER_04: I've been inside of a dance competition weekend for gosh, uh a hundred years.
10:32
SPEAKER_01: Hundred years, uh literally at this point.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: Now, I have uh another um response that I can kind of goes along with that about what the judges can and can't say and what is being allowed on the back end.
10:47
SPEAKER_01: And here's a submission or anonymous submission.
10:50
SPEAKER_01: It says a beautifully choreographed number was on stage, but with an absolutely inappropriate song and movements for the age division.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: The judges requested to break to discuss their thoughts openly.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: We decided unanimously that even though the dancers were beautiful, the performance did not fall within the guidelines of age appropriateness, and therefore we decided it should be for adjudication only, not available for placements or high scores.
11:15
SPEAKER_01: Ten minutes later, the owner forced another break to argue with us regarding our decision.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: We all stood strong with our opinion.
11:23
SPEAKER_01: They told us we were wrong and that they would be winning overall for the division, as well as a choreography award.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: Their staff prepared everything accordingly.
11:33
SPEAKER_01: I walked away from working for that competition after that.
11:36
SPEAKER_01: Clearly, my opinion, education, and intuition along with the other two judges did not matter.
11:42
SPEAKER_04: We have paid thousands and thousands of dollars to have the education level that we have.
11:48
SPEAKER_04: We take class at Steps, BDC, around the country.
11:51
SPEAKER_04: We went, a lot of us went to school.
11:53
SPEAKER_04: Brittany has an insane resume.
11:57
SPEAKER_04: Brittany has this wonderful education, and they're paying us for that.
12:00
SPEAKER_04: And then you're gonna tell us we can't say what we want to say, we can't remove something.
12:05
SPEAKER_04: There was a dance on stage, and they used a clean version of a song and edited out curse words, but the context was still there.
12:13
SPEAKER_04: And then I got the choreography.
12:16
SPEAKER_04: When they bleeped out a word, they were choreographed to turn over their shoulder and say shh to the audience.
12:22
SPEAKER_04: And I, while I was critiquing, I said, I just don't know that this is appropriate ever for a child of this age, you know.
12:30
SPEAKER_04: And then a couple, I don't know, 45 seconds later, it was still eating inside of me while I was watching this dance.
12:36
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, actually, I want to go back to this and I want to say, this is wildly inappropriate.
12:40
SPEAKER_04: But but then you're still required to continue critiquing these darling little humans that just want to dance.
12:46
SPEAKER_04: They just want to, you know, they have no idea.
12:49
SPEAKER_04: They're just given, they're given this material, they're given this costume, it's covered in Swarovski rhinestones, and they're like, My daddy says I look glam.
12:57
SPEAKER_04: Great, okay, great.
12:59
SPEAKER_00: To piggyback off of all of this, I can't tell you like how many times I've been on the panel where like choreography is a part of the score.
13:08
SPEAKER_00: I am scoring you a zero out of 10 on choreography.
13:11
SPEAKER_00: So I have to give you a number for your choreography out of 10, but I'm not allowed to comment at all about your choreography.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: And you probably can't give it a zero ten.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: So sometimes, yeah, sometimes on my tablet, I can only give you a nine.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: Right.
13:31
SPEAKER_00: It won't even go any farther.
13:32
SPEAKER_00: It won't go.
13:33
SPEAKER_00: I can't go.
13:34
SPEAKER_00: I can't go in below a nine.
13:35
SPEAKER_00: So I have to give you a nine or a nine point two or a nine point nine or a ten, but I can't explain to you why I'm giving you that because I was told by the competition director that I'm not allowed to do it.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: I know it's kind of industry, industry standards.
13:49
SPEAKER_00: I don't know in your guys' experience, but for me, you'll sit down at the table when you come in to judge in the morning, and the director will come over and they'll say, Hey, you know, we really kind of like our scores to be within three to six points of one another.
14:03
SPEAKER_00: And I always kind of go, okay.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: And again, then I have another additional part of my job where I can't just type in my score and focus on my critique.
14:13
SPEAKER_00: And if I'm outside of that three to six point range, I'm expected to change my score.
14:19
SPEAKER_00: And at sometimes the competition director will send down a post-it that's like, hey, number 42, you were six points outside.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: Would you like to adjust?
14:28
SPEAKER_00: And it's like a question.
14:30
SPEAKER_00: It's not even a question.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: It's a hey, at least they ask.
14:34
SPEAKER_00: What are you going to adjust?
14:36
SPEAKER_00: Or correct, or they don't ask at all.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: And I I know where it comes from from the director point because I hear it from the directors all the time that they get this pushback from the studio owners that if the scores are so wide or whatever, but my my my my pushback on that would be like, well, let's figure out why there's a wide difference.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: If Rob scores a 92 and I score a 98, it's Rob saw something different than I did.
15:03
SPEAKER_00: Please listen to Rob's critiques and figure out why Rob scored a 92.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: Because I have confidence in Rob's ability to explain to you why he scored a 92.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: If he's allowed to, and I have confidence in my ability to explain to you why I scored a 98, right?
15:19
SPEAKER_00: And let's let's let's please not forget that there's human beings behind the table, right?
15:24
SPEAKER_00: If I lost my grandfather last weekend and you did a lyrical routine about losing your grandfather, I you're hitting me.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: You're hitting my heartstrings because that is an experience that I just went through.
15:37
SPEAKER_00: And so I might forget that your lines were not fully extended because you're emotionally grabbing me.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm not forget.
15:43
SPEAKER_00: What am I trying to say?
15:44
SPEAKER_00: Not forget.
15:45
SPEAKER_00: I may be a little bit more lenient at the fact that the technique is that there because your emotional execution took me on the journey.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: So you're on a robot.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: Your your emotional execution took me on a journey that was healing for me in that moment.
15:57
SPEAKER_00: And you connected with me as an artist, and that meant more to me than the fact that your big toe didn't point as hard as maybe I could have wanted it to.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: And and I on another day.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: And we get pushback about that all the time.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: And and the first thing I want to say that a director is, I promise you my critiques are explaining my score.
16:15
SPEAKER_00: I promise you that they are.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: I didn't make that score up out of nowhere unless I have to give you a nine out of 10 on choreography because I'm not allowed to give you a four because your choreography was inappropriate or whatever else.
16:26
SPEAKER_00: But sorry, Rob, I know you're ready to chime into it.
16:29
SPEAKER_04: No, no, no.
16:30
SPEAKER_04: No, I but I think like, why wouldn't why wouldn't you want to have a conversation about it?
16:34
SPEAKER_04: Why wouldn't the director want to have a conversation and be like, Rob, why did you give this a 92?
16:38
SPEAKER_04: Brittany, why why are you so different from Rob?
16:41
SPEAKER_04: Like, why couldn't we have an educated conversation?
16:44
SPEAKER_04: I always think about it as like, these are our opinions.
16:47
SPEAKER_04: Dance is a performance art, is an art form, it's subjective.
16:50
SPEAKER_04: Courtney is never gonna like everything that I like, and that's okay.
16:54
SPEAKER_04: Is anybody going to the New York Times when they review a Broadway show and being like, actually, your opinion is wrong?
17:00
SPEAKER_04: They don't care.
17:02
SPEAKER_04: There, it's the biggest newspaper publication in the world.
17:06
SPEAKER_04: Why why can't I also have that same artistic opinion to be like, this is not tasteful?
17:13
SPEAKER_04: Or this is or like this is offensive, or like I'm I didn't lose my grandfather last weekend, so I'm not as affected as Britney is.
17:21
SPEAKER_03: You really are focused on that.
17:22
SPEAKER_04: And I really hate and I really didn't like what you guys put out there.
17:26
SPEAKER_04: But Britney, however, has overlying, you know, emotions that are can continuing to flood in.
17:32
SPEAKER_04: And it like really affected her in a wonderful way.
17:34
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:34
SPEAKER_04: And that's okay too.
17:36
SPEAKER_04: Why wouldn't that be okay?
17:38
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: And you want your dancers to have that.
17:41
SPEAKER_00: As an educator, I want my dancers to be able to listen to Britney's critiques and go, you guys, she's a judge who was impacted by this routine.
17:49
SPEAKER_00: And let's also hear Rob, who really wants us to extend this through the back of the knees.
17:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's really helping us understand how we can do that better.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: And let's also listen to Courtney, who was in the middle and was able, like you, as an educator, have to help support your kids, understanding that number one, our critiques are our opinions and they do not lower their value in any way whatsoever, whether they're walking away with double star platinum plus penguin award or a silver.
18:16
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: Like the adjudication, right, is not a determination of their value as a human being.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: And that that responsibility is on the educator in the moment to help those kids understand those critiques and go, look, we did have a wide range.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: And I know that that's hard to understand, but please know that you were able to impact somebody at and get the score that you wanted.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: But there's also value, there's a value in every single critique that you're receiving and every single score that you're critiquing.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: Why do they have to be within three points of one another?
18:47
SPEAKER_00: That blows my mind.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: I don't get it.
18:48
SPEAKER_04: And sometimes it's not an opinion.
18:50
SPEAKER_04: Sometimes it's literally that I caught something.
18:53
SPEAKER_04: Let's that I did not let's put this out there, and Courtney is gonna run with this, and I know she will.
18:59
SPEAKER_02: Uh uh.
19:00
SPEAKER_04: Uh this season, I was at a competition, and one of the dances is clearly stolen ideas, costume, and choreography.
19:09
SPEAKER_04: Far be it because it's from a studio that I used to teach at.
19:14
SPEAKER_04: And they did this production number several years ago.
19:17
SPEAKER_04: And I as it was being set up on stage, I was like, what this looks this looks so familiar.
19:24
SPEAKER_02: Why?
19:24
SPEAKER_04: Like, this is about to happen.
19:26
SPEAKER_04: So then for me, that score went way down.
19:30
SPEAKER_04: Right.
19:30
SPEAKER_04: And I said it on my critique because I'm 300 years old at this point and I I have a strong opinion.
19:36
SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, You you stole that.
19:38
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I'm not on TikTok, so I don't know any of this stuff.
19:42
SPEAKER_04: There was a dance that apparently a minute or more of a solo was TikTok choreography.
19:48
SPEAKER_04: I don't know that.
19:49
SPEAKER_04: So my score is different, right?
19:51
SPEAKER_04: And I thought this was pretty cute.
19:52
SPEAKER_04: Like I like costume, I thought it was, I thought it was like a really sweet dance.
19:55
SPEAKER_04: I thought it was kind of stylized and and in the world.
19:58
SPEAKER_04: And then, of course, afterwards I found out.
19:59
SPEAKER_04: I was like, oh God, okay.
20:00
SPEAKER_04: Right.
20:01
SPEAKER_04: But they got that critique from those other two judges that was like, hi, this isn't your choreography.
20:06
SPEAKER_04: This is this is literally choreography that has gone viral on TikTok.
20:10
SPEAKER_03: Well, that's why it's important to have a panel of judges who have a wide variety of perspectives, past experiences, lived experiences, because I'm the same as you, Rob.
20:19
SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't, I didn't clock that either and wouldn't have.
20:21
SPEAKER_03: And there's reasons why, like you said, Britney, there is a reason.
20:25
SPEAKER_03: I didn't give that score willy-nilly.
20:27
SPEAKER_03: That score is there because I'm backing it up.
20:29
SPEAKER_02: Right.
20:29
SPEAKER_03: And if you had a conversation with me, you would understand that.
20:32
SPEAKER_03: And this is, you know, I want to get to the point of that story that you told, Courtney, about the judge, the judge, the three entire judges having made a unanimous decision that this should be adjudication only.
20:42
SPEAKER_03: And then the director came, challenged it, and overrode that decision.
20:46
SPEAKER_03: And unfortunately, that happens a lot.
20:49
SPEAKER_03: And whether the judges know it or not, and that's the part that is difficult that, you know, Britney, like we were talking about at the beginning of this conversation, that sometimes leads to good judges, passionate judges, people who love what they do stepping away from this business.
21:03
SPEAKER_03: Because if you, as an owner of a competition, are undermining my opinion that you hired, that you paid for, that you looked at my resume and decided she is worthy of being on this panel.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:14
SPEAKER_03: And then you just decide to throw all that away, well, then why am I even here?
21:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:18
SPEAKER_03: It messes with your head as somebody who has spent their life doing this.
21:22
SPEAKER_03: Yep.
21:22
SPEAKER_03: And I want to keep doing this job.
21:25
SPEAKER_03: And many of us want to keep doing this job, but the entities that are are creating circumstances that make it really, really hard to still want to do this job.
21:34
SPEAKER_03: And that is one of them where either I know you've changed my score, I know you've overridden my decision, or I'm living my life doing my job, and unbeknownst to me, you have changed my score or overridden my decision.
21:45
SPEAKER_03: And my name's still on it.
21:46
SPEAKER_03: And my name is still on it.
21:48
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: So, like when whenever someone is getting the award that they love or they don't love, whether whether we agree with that or not, my name is still on that.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: Right?
21:57
SPEAKER_00: So you're going home on.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Those things, and and that's hard.
22:01
SPEAKER_00: Sorry about that.
22:02
SPEAKER_04: Don't apologize.
22:03
SPEAKER_04: We we're heating up in here.
22:07
SPEAKER_04: I think it's wild because up until this year, this comp season is the first time that in years that I've ever even been to an award ceremony.
22:20
SPEAKER_04: And there and not judging.
22:23
SPEAKER_04: And so like you have no idea as a judge, most of the time, what is actually being given at an award ceremony.
22:31
SPEAKER_04: So for you know, for you guys to say that on Monday morning, uh these these groups that are online, these I I think I know who what you're talking about, but I don't check any of that stuff.
22:40
SPEAKER_04: I don't even know that I'm connected to it anymore.
22:43
SPEAKER_04: But like for these parents or these studio directors to be like upset at us, sure.
22:49
SPEAKER_04: You you know what, you can listen to my critique and you can be upset about what I have to say.
22:53
SPEAKER_04: That's fine.
22:53
SPEAKER_04: That's fine.
22:54
SPEAKER_04: I I still am gonna stand by everything that I say anyway.
22:58
SPEAKER_04: But what you're getting in those award ceremonies sometimes, especially for other competitions that I haven't worked for, I would imagine, you might be getting a score, an adjudicated score, an overall placement, and a you know, a studio of full of pearls from this competition that I never even knew we were giving out.
23:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:21
SPEAKER_04: And yet, just like just like Court said, we're still getting blamed for it.
23:25
SPEAKER_04: I didn't know that.
23:26
SPEAKER_04: Again, clearly I should be on social media more, but like that that's crazy to me that you're that you're blaming me for all of this, and I didn't even know that we gave out this award.
23:37
SPEAKER_04: There was a competition, an IDA affiliated competition that when I got home on one weekend, I was watching, it was like a big competition, and it was really, really talented studios and dancers.
23:48
SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I kind of want to see how this all hashed out.
23:51
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
23:51
SPEAKER_04: So watched the live stream, and they were giving out awards with titles that I have never heard of before.
24:00
SPEAKER_04: I was like, this sounds like a psychology major class in college that I didn't attend.
24:05
SPEAKER_04: Like these are things that I've never even heard these words before.
24:08
SPEAKER_04: Where did these come from?
24:09
SPEAKER_04: And who voted on them?
24:10
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:11
SPEAKER_04: Because you know, they're all they're always gonna say, like, and the judges choose death of the self-dum.
24:16
SPEAKER_04: Like, I'm just gonna be able to do that.
24:17
SPEAKER_04: You're like, I did not.
24:19
SPEAKER_04: I didn't know that was a thing.
24:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
24:25
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26:03
SPEAKER_01: I think that like when I hear all of this, I think that what's missing currently across the board in the industry for comp owners, studio owners, parents, dancers, other teachers is lack of respect for for judges.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: No one respects us anymore.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: Everyone thinks we're replaceable, everyone thinks we're uneducated, everyone thinks that we don't know what we're talking about.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: And there are, again, we've said this.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Are there judges that shouldn't be judging?
26:32
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: But there's more to that.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: How did they get that job?
26:37
SPEAKER_01: Why did they accept that job?
26:39
SPEAKER_01: And uh there's more to it.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: Is it because they're inexperienced?
26:43
SPEAKER_01: Is it because that they a seasoned judge wouldn't accept that pay rate?
26:46
SPEAKER_01: Is it because the working conditions are awful and they don't know any different?
26:50
SPEAKER_01: Is it because they were local and they're friends with the owner and they just filled in last minute?
26:54
SPEAKER_01: You don't know how they got that job because every competition's gonna say, we have experienced judges, we have qualified judges, but are they what else are they gonna say?
27:05
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they're not gonna say we we went to a local college and like somebody from the dance major program like had a weekend free and we brought them on, or they were a backstage runner and the dance competition judge, you know, got a stomach virus and they're like, Well, crap, we have to fill in.
27:22
SPEAKER_04: Of course, there's always you know, there's things that happen, but can I like throw a wrench into that and say as well then like what about what about the fact that like the judges are now?
27:34
SPEAKER_04: I've like lost because I got so heated for a second.
27:37
SPEAKER_04: No, the wrench.
27:38
SPEAKER_04: I want to hear the wrench.
27:40
SPEAKER_04: I know.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: Find the wrench.
27:42
SPEAKER_04: Oh, geez, now there's peer pressure inside of this as well.
27:45
SPEAKER_04: Keep going.
27:45
SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna come back to it.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: I I have one too.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm I'm gonna throw my butt myself under the butt for a second.
27:51
SPEAKER_00: Like, I have judged competitions where I have judged vocal performances.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: And nobody when I was hired asked me if I had any sort of experience judging vocals.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: I don't.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: And you probably don't want me to judge it because I I I don't know how to help you through your vocal performance.
28:11
SPEAKER_00: I have zero expertise, I have zero experience in vocal training at all.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting that like then all of a sudden I'm sitting at a competition weekend of 500 entries, and here comes a vocal person on stage, and I'm like, well, here we go.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: And and I and I would I will be the judge that will say, Hey, I just want you to know that this is not my area of expertise.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna judge you in what I have the ability to judge you, and you can take that or leave that.
28:36
SPEAKER_00: But like, you know, just kind of like you said, they're gonna tell you guys that we're all experienced and that they vet these judges and whatever.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: But it would have been really awesome for that competition to be like, there's an opportunity for you to judge vocal.
28:48
SPEAKER_00: Have you had any experience with that?
28:50
SPEAKER_00: And I can go, yes or no.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you.
28:53
SPEAKER_01: But also, I feel like on the flip side, just because there's one, two, five vocal entries doesn't mean that you should have to sacrifice an entire weekend of work that you've had booked on your schedule for five months because five vocal entries came into the mix when you've been put onto that event.
29:09
SPEAKER_01: And now if they go, oh, you're not qualified, sorry, we're gonna have to replace you, we're gonna put you on another weekend that's less pay, that's whatever.
29:16
SPEAKER_01: So, like there have to we have to like meet in the middle somewhere that sometimes, yeah, we're not.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: Like, I think the expectation for judges is getting too out of control.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: Like, we're supposed to know everything, we're supposed to be watching TikTok, we're supposed to be studying every genre of dance and be experts in it.
29:30
SPEAKER_01: Like, come on, maybe we need to prioritize reality.
29:34
SPEAKER_03: And you're gonna try to feed me a subway sandwich with some mayonnaise on it.
29:36
SPEAKER_03: Right.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: Like, we need to like think about the reality, yeah.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: Like it's unrealistic.
29:42
SPEAKER_01: It's unrealistic.
29:44
SPEAKER_00: I've never met a judge that is an expert in point and tap and clogging and focal and hip-hop and lyrical and contemporary and modern.
29:51
SPEAKER_00: No, and focus or also what is open?
29:54
SPEAKER_00: Open is what is how do you be an expert in open?
29:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm can I don't know because you don't know what you're getting, right?
30:00
SPEAKER_00: So I I I've never met a judge that is an expert in all of those genres.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: Never.
30:06
SPEAKER_03: Well, and one of the things, Rob, did you find your wrench?
30:08
SPEAKER_04: I got my wrench.
30:09
SPEAKER_04: Okay, give the wrench and then I have a point.
30:11
SPEAKER_04: So I'm gonna go back to Courtney for Courtney's story for just a second because, like you were you were saying about they don't they they can complain about what they got, but also their complain, they know maybe they probably know that they can complain to these competitions and then get what they want.
30:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
30:28
SPEAKER_03: Right.
30:29
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
30:29
SPEAKER_04: So then so then at the end of the day, with the current status of the United States of America, you can just then say, well, I mean, everybody, you know, we say this, and I this is probably a moot point, but like everybody gets a pen or everybody gets a plaque or a trophy or something now.
30:46
SPEAKER_04: And I I might be the unpopular opinion on that.
30:50
SPEAKER_04: And like I I like that that you get something that you were there.
30:54
SPEAKER_04: Now, is you're not gonna get an overall just because you showed up that day, but like you got on stage and you did something, and it was probably it hopefully was probably like one of your best options of of the weekend.
31:06
SPEAKER_04: Like you got on stage and you did your solo, maybe you've got some uh you know, some stage fright or some social anxiety and you and you did that.
31:12
SPEAKER_04: And so, like, I kind of like that.
31:14
SPEAKER_04: Uh, it's not the popular opinion and uh in what I've heard, but a lot of times you know, in in society, you're just gonna complain.
31:24
SPEAKER_04: Some studios are gonna complain until they get what they want, until they get those kinds of things.
31:29
SPEAKER_04: So that's like another layer into the award ceremonies.
31:32
SPEAKER_04: It's like, well, I would imagine like dance uh competition directors are like, well, we have to give this studio something because this teacher's crazy and brought us$72,000 in a production number, and we can't get rid of them, so then they have to have this.
31:48
SPEAKER_01: Or they're gonna rip us a new one on social media.
31:50
SPEAKER_03: And I mean, I feel I feel for that circumstance.
31:52
SPEAKER_03: Like I really do, because we live, and this is like I I've been saying this recently just because it sounds it's true, but it sounds like insane.
32:00
SPEAKER_03: We live under capitalism, guys.
32:02
SPEAKER_03: Like we do.
32:02
SPEAKER_03: The businesses have to make money, and customers are asking for what they want.
32:08
SPEAKER_03: You know, customers are coming and making complaints and making suggestions and asking for things, but it's become so overblown that, you know, everybody does get a pin, everybody does get a trophy.
32:17
SPEAKER_03: We have to spread the love, we have to acknowledge everybody's existence and everybody's work.
32:21
SPEAKER_03: And like I understand because that's fair.
32:24
SPEAKER_03: I was not somebody who was gonna get an overall.
32:26
SPEAKER_03: I appreciated my honorable mention badge, but I didn't expect to get anything else.
32:30
SPEAKER_03: And the problem now, I think, is that everybody expects more than just the pin.
32:34
SPEAKER_03: Perhaps when they do not necessarily deserve more than just the pen.
32:39
SPEAKER_03: The pen is not enough anymore.
32:40
SPEAKER_03: And that's where it's it's really a struggle to do what we do because the expectations are raising and raising and raising and raising, but there's not the work behind it to support those expectations.
32:51
SPEAKER_03: There's not the support to support the expectations.
32:53
SPEAKER_03: Case in point, all of us having this conversation today.
32:56
SPEAKER_03: Like, I cannot possibly give you what you're asking me based on the pay you're offering me, the circumstances that you're putting me under.
33:04
SPEAKER_03: I can't be an expert in everything.
33:05
SPEAKER_03: So, where does the onus fall?
33:07
SPEAKER_03: It falls on the directors to have to try to do their best to accommodate everybody's needs, including ours as the judges, including the studios that participate, including the parents.
33:16
SPEAKER_03: You know, like it, it, I would never want to own a competition.
33:19
SPEAKER_03: Like, forget about it.
33:20
SPEAKER_03: It's too much.
33:21
SPEAKER_03: And so that it blows my mind when I see every month, every week, new competition coming.
33:26
SPEAKER_03: Pegasus trying to start a new competition.
33:28
SPEAKER_03: What do you want?
33:29
SPEAKER_03: I'm like, stop asking the people because there's plenty.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: There's plenty of things to come out.
33:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:35
SPEAKER_00: This is where my mental health hack comes in.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: And I think like, I know that this is other topics on other episodes, but it goes back to what are we, what are we investing in?
33:46
SPEAKER_00: What is the point of competitive dance?
33:49
SPEAKER_00: Right.
33:49
SPEAKER_00: Is the compet is the point of competitive dance for you being able to post on your child's social media account that they got an overall and they got this trophy and they got this banner and they got this frisbee and they got whatever?
34:01
SPEAKER_00: Like, is that is that the point?
34:03
SPEAKER_00: Because if that's the point, I promise you, you don't you don't have to invest in competition.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: You can go to Amazon.com and buy a trophy and buy a frisbee and and layer out in the front yard and take the pictures and do the things and rhinestone the costumes all by yourself.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: If the point is to go to competitions and get feedback from professionals about your performance, so you can take that feedback and enhance your dancer and enhance your performance and grow as an artist and grow as a technician and grow as a performer, then that's the point of competitive dance.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: And that's what you're investing in, right?
34:37
SPEAKER_00: And we have to bring ourselves back to the watch.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: We have to bring ourselves back to why we do this.
34:42
SPEAKER_00: And that is the point of competitive dance.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: And Rob, you're so right.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: Like at the end of the day, those competitions need those big studios to come back.
34:50
SPEAKER_00: When they come back to their city next year, they want them to come back to their competition because there's at least where I'm from in St.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: Louis, there's a comp there's six competitions here every single weekend that people can choose from.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: So there are competitors, right?
35:06
SPEAKER_00: We are in a business where there are competitors and they and they want you to come back.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: And so it's like, again, it takes me back to this fact that like it, if we're all going to competition for the goal of winning, uh-oh, because there can't, we can't all win first overall.
35:23
SPEAKER_00: It's not structured that way, right?
35:25
SPEAKER_00: So I'm constantly challenging educators.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, what conversations are you having with your students in the classroom about what the goals for competition are?
35:34
SPEAKER_00: Are you are kind of back to respect, Courtney?
35:37
SPEAKER_00: Kind of what you're saying.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: Are you teaching your dancers to respect what the judges say, even if you don't like it?
35:43
SPEAKER_00: You have to like it.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: You you don't have to like the fact that I whatever said what I said about your technique or your performance, but there is a respect level, right?
35:54
SPEAKER_00: And and are you mad at me because my score was a 92 and you think it should be a 96?
35:59
SPEAKER_00: So no matter what comes out of my mouth, is it's already discredited.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, uh-oh, then we're not teaching the right things and we're not doing competitive dance for the right reasons, and we're not, I don't know.
36:09
SPEAKER_00: So it it takes me back to the deeper why.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: And that's why I'm so um passionate about fostering the relationship with dance, because it's gonna ruin your relationship with dance if you're if the if what you're getting out of the competition weekend is based on what adjudication you're walking away with, or based off whatever score that you have set in your mind that you think we should be giving you.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: Right.
36:31
SPEAKER_00: It's it's gonna, it's gonna really, really hurt your relationship with dance and yourself and the value that you have within yourself.
36:37
SPEAKER_04: I mean, I've heard so many times that studio owners don't even allow for their critiques from competitions to be heard by people.
36:45
SPEAKER_04: So it's just falling on deaf ears.
36:47
SPEAKER_04: It's actually not falling on any ears.
36:49
SPEAKER_03: I mean, like, it's right.
36:51
SPEAKER_04: To talk like to kind of go off of that, Brittany, is like, you know, could be ruining someone's like understanding of reality.
37:00
SPEAKER_04: I mean, uh there were this was years and years ago that a comp uh I judged a nationals competition the next season.
37:09
SPEAKER_04: One of the teachers, one of the choreographer studio owners that I judged their work at Nationals was on the panel with me and told me because I didn't let her senior dancer win, that she quit dancing.
37:23
SPEAKER_01: And it was your fault?
37:24
SPEAKER_04: Wow, you didn't let her it was the panel's fault that because this dancer didn't win, she quit dance altogether.
37:33
SPEAKER_04: Just like what you're saying.
37:34
SPEAKER_04: Like, that's that's not my job.
37:36
SPEAKER_04: No, I have left studios before because they have teachers that are screaming in the big studio in the back.
37:44
SPEAKER_04: I want trophies, I want confetti, I want, I want the banner to hang on the wall, like studio directors leaving blank spaces for this year's nationals like banner or whatever.
37:55
SPEAKER_04: Like, what about just being able to be content with what you put on the stage?
38:01
SPEAKER_04: I always used to tell my students, actually at that studio, that I I didn't care what they did on stage.
38:07
SPEAKER_04: I surely didn't care what they what they won because I already have my resume.
38:12
SPEAKER_04: I don't need to say that my my senior soloist won, you know, top advanced solo at this dance competition.
38:19
SPEAKER_04: What I want them to do is to feel artistically fulfilled and to feel like I've been working on sustaining a releve for this part of my dance, or I've been having a hard time connecting to this lyric and the song, and a judge commented on it.
38:34
SPEAKER_04: So your job is done.
38:35
SPEAKER_04: If you can lay your head down on your pillow at not at night, choreographers, students, directors, then if you can lay your head down on your pillow at night and be happy about what you put out there, that should be enough.
38:47
SPEAKER_04: Is that real in the whole world?
38:49
SPEAKER_04: No, of course not.
38:50
SPEAKER_04: But like at a dance competition, like that's what I tell student, that's what I tell students that I used to teach.
38:54
SPEAKER_04: But then I've also got you know somebody screaming at another studio of that.
39:00
SPEAKER_04: It's unrealistic expectations and it's unnecessary.
39:04
SPEAKER_04: What do you need that for?
39:06
SPEAKER_04: What are you screaming at these kids for?
39:08
SPEAKER_04: Why not just say, I really hope you do a great job this weekend and that you feel proud of yourself.
39:13
SPEAKER_04: If you win, great.
39:14
SPEAKER_04: If you don't win, we're gonna work harder for the next one.
39:17
SPEAKER_04: This is anything that we haven't already discussed.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think that's why it starts, it starts in the training, right?
39:24
SPEAKER_00: It starts in the training for us to be able to do the job that you hired us to do, right?
39:29
SPEAKER_00: It's not just on the competition director, it is every single person, every single adult that comes in contact with that dancer.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: It's it's the parent.
39:37
SPEAKER_00: What questions are you asking your dancer when they come home from competition?
39:41
SPEAKER_00: What what questions did grandma ask about the competition this weekend?
39:45
SPEAKER_00: Was it, well, how did you place?
39:46
SPEAKER_00: Or is it like, how did you feel?
39:48
SPEAKER_00: Or, you know, what goals did you accomplish?
39:51
SPEAKER_00: Right.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: And and all of those go into the conversation we're having about judges and and how we do the job that we do, because we're unable to do the job sometimes that you were hired to do because of the pushback, right?
40:05
SPEAKER_00: Or because we have competition directors kind of like you were saying, Leslie, or we all were saying that like feel this pressure to make everybody so unbelievably happy that it takes away our ability to do our job if scores are ultimately made up, right?
40:19
SPEAKER_03: Well, and it it's it's situations like that that give this industry a very bad name.
40:24
SPEAKER_03: You know, that's when when people think about dance competitions, if they're out of the loop or if they, you know, don't really know about it.
40:31
SPEAKER_03: You know, I've heard so many times, well, you know, those scores don't even matter, or surely they're made up, or, you know, it's all rigged.
40:37
SPEAKER_03: Like you hear those thoughts and those, you know, things come out all the time.
40:41
SPEAKER_03: And it's like, well, sometimes they're not.
40:42
SPEAKER_03: There, I have worked for plenty of places who don't even touch my score.
40:46
SPEAKER_03: They don't look at it as far as I know.
40:47
SPEAKER_03: And I feel pretty confident in this in some of these places.
40:50
SPEAKER_03: So yeah, a lot of times, nope, it is what it is.
40:53
SPEAKER_03: And here we go.
40:54
SPEAKER_03: The the chips fell where they were.
40:56
SPEAKER_03: But there, and like sadly, it's like once you know, you can't unknow.
41:00
SPEAKER_03: Like once I've seen behind the curtain, now I know.
41:02
SPEAKER_03: And now I know there are places that do these things, you know, for the good of their business.
41:06
SPEAKER_03: They think it's for the good of their business to make everybody happy, to adjust scores, to move things around.
41:11
SPEAKER_03: And I just don't like it.
41:12
SPEAKER_03: It makes me uncomfortable.
41:13
SPEAKER_03: And and then it just perpetuates that this is not a realistic industry.
41:17
SPEAKER_03: This is not an honest industry.
41:20
SPEAKER_03: And then it, you know, you have to then we're talking about putting some of these kids out into the professional world.
41:26
SPEAKER_03: Unrealistic expectations.
41:27
SPEAKER_03: There's just unrealistic expectations.
41:29
SPEAKER_03: If I've said, if I've said to you over and over again, you know, if I've given you a score that says you win, you win, you win, you're the best.
41:36
SPEAKER_03: I've given you no helpful feedback to make you better.
41:38
SPEAKER_03: And then you go into a situation where you're not the best, truly.
41:41
SPEAKER_03: And you don't even have any tools to try to get better.
41:43
SPEAKER_03: You just have resentment that, well, they told me I was the best last weekend.
41:47
SPEAKER_03: Why am I not the best now?
41:48
SPEAKER_03: Well, if you had listened to my critique, I w I could have told you.
41:51
SPEAKER_01: But if nobody's letting you listen to that critique, or if we're not allowed, we're not allowed to speak our mind on the critique.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:58
SPEAKER_04: Right.
41:58
SPEAKER_04: Or you could be the best if you went to an audition.
42:01
SPEAKER_04: If a comp competition student went like went to their first audition in New York City, they might be the best dancer in the room.
42:08
SPEAKER_04: But the casting directors didn't need a five foot nine, you know, like female identifying blonde dancer that has really high demi points.
42:19
SPEAKER_04: They needed a five-two dancer with curly hair, you know.
42:24
SPEAKER_04: Like, why can't you also tell why can't why can't you also tell your students that?
42:29
SPEAKER_04: That sometimes it has nothing to do with what you're doing in the in the room.
42:33
SPEAKER_04: Those are false expectations.
42:35
SPEAKER_04: Like if you're winning a dance competition does not mean that you're also going to be working on Broadway.
42:39
SPEAKER_04: It might.
42:39
SPEAKER_04: You might do that.
42:40
SPEAKER_00: But I don't, I don't sit on the panel to make sure you win.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: I sit on the panel to try to inspire you to keep doing dance if dance makes you feel good about you.
42:52
SPEAKER_00: And dance brings joy to your heart.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: That's why I sit on that panel, right?
42:56
SPEAKER_00: And I, if I'm not, if I'm not allowed to give you the score and help you through your routine and help you enhance your routine, and in my best professional opinion, with my personal experiences and with world experiences and all of these things, if I'm not allowed to do that organically, or I'm not valued, or I'm not made to feel like my organic approach is valued, man, we're really doing a disservice out here, is what's happening.
43:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: Y'all, this was such a fantastic chat.
43:25
SPEAKER_01: And I know that we could sit here and talk for five more hours about the industry as a whole and our experiences, and even just sharing more anonymous omissions from fellow judges out there about their experiences.
43:40
SPEAKER_01: But um, I think that it's been a really valid and important conversation and what a way to end season seven of Making the Impact.
43:48
SPEAKER_01: I hope that the right people are listening to this episode.
43:51
SPEAKER_01: I hope that as we are heading into competition season selection for next year, we're considering how to make adjustments, who are choosing to give business to what kind of questions we're asking, all of the things that we talked about.
44:05
SPEAKER_01: Keep that in the back of your mind and not just picking competitions that you've had the best experiences at, but have never asked these types of questions of what's actually going on behind the scenes, what's your treatment like and even talk to other people who have worked for those competitions.
44:21
SPEAKER_01: Because the director is gonna probably tell you what you want to hear.
44:24
SPEAKER_01: Let's be real.
44:25
SPEAKER_01: But sometimes it's really helpful to get a a more realistic view when speaking to others who have worked for the companies because the dance world is small, y'all.
44:36
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of us all know the same people.
44:38
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you can find somebody and you can get an idea as to hey, this is the competition that I want to invest my money in because they have the right morals, the right ethics, the integrity in the industry that I am looking for and that's who I want to support.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: And you know you can find that or at Impact Dance Adjudicators IDA affiliated competitions or because like I kicked off the conversation saying our IDA affiliated competitions really do value the judges they are investing in the quality of judges to have behind the table.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: You know they're pre-screened, they are a background check and the judges want to sit in those chairs because of the treatment that they are receiving at IDA comps, but also knowing that they have me as someone who will advocate for them, which I think is a really big game changer that so many judges who don't work with us don't have.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: They have to advocate for themselves and it becomes really uncomfortable.
45:28
SPEAKER_01: So I would love to share from Rob and Britney if you could both, but since you're both IDA judges, or even Leslie too if you want to chime in, um since you're both IDA, all three IDA judges, you've been on our roster for many, many years.
45:41
SPEAKER_01: We've been around now at IDA for over 10 years in the industry.
45:45
SPEAKER_01: I'd love for you to lead us out with some thoughts on impact dance adjudicators, why it's necessary in our industry, why you enjoy being on the roster and why um it's helped us shift the industry a bit.
45:59
SPEAKER_01: Whatever you want to share with your experiences.
46:02
SPEAKER_00: I it allows me to do my job like in the simplest form.
46:08
SPEAKER_00: I I don't I appreciate so much the advocacy that I get with IDA.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: So I don't have to worry about travel.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: I don't have to worry about sleep.
46:17
SPEAKER_00: I don't have to worry about food.
46:19
SPEAKER_00: I don't have to worry about my basic needs being taken care of.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: So all I have to focus on is showing up and giving my best wholeheartedly invested heart and mind to these dancers on the stage because that's why I do it.
46:33
SPEAKER_00: And and I I get so unbelievably inspired being able to travel around this nation and and get to see dances from East Coast and the West Coast and the North and the South because dance looks different in in different regions.
46:47
SPEAKER_00: And I get to be able to go and be inspired by teachers and choreographers and educators and dancers all over the place that help me become a better educator and help me become a better choreographer and help me become a better teacher.
47:00
SPEAKER_00: And so it it is a reciprocal relationship.
47:02
SPEAKER_00: Judging really does feel good to me.
47:05
SPEAKER_00: And so when I have IDA behind my back that I I know I don't have to worry about the treatment that I'm receiving and I know that those basic needs are taken care of, it allows me to do what I do, what what I want to do right with my whole heart.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: And it makes me feel good about participating in the competitive dance industry in this realm, right?
47:28
SPEAKER_00: Because when it's not happening in this realm and the things are happening, the horror stories are happening like we've been talking about all podcasts, it makes me frustrated with the competitive dance world and it makes me frustrated to sit on that panel and it makes me frustrated with the dance community.
47:44
SPEAKER_00: And that's not the relationship that I want to have with dance.
47:47
SPEAKER_00: I am I am so protective of my relationship with dance at age 34.
47:52
SPEAKER_00: I have the best relationship with dance now that I've ever had in my entire life and I don't get to go on stage anymore.
47:57
SPEAKER_00: And I don't get to stand in the overall lineup anymore and all one of me trophy.
48:02
SPEAKER_00: Like I don't get a trophy at the end of my weekend.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: Like that's that's not what's bringing me joy anymore.
48:07
SPEAKER_00: And I'm really really protective of that relationship.
48:10
SPEAKER_00: So I'm really really protective of the companies that I choose to work for so I can have the experience that brings me joy and and brings me fulfillment and IBA allows me to do that.
48:22
SPEAKER_04: That was beautiful.
48:23
SPEAKER_04: That was so sweet I loved that one so good it's all it's all so so so similar.
48:30
SPEAKER_04: I mean I think because because I love Courtney so much and and and like you said in the very beginning of it it's it's now it's been in my life for so long just this company itself and not only the advocacy but also like the trust to be to like continue to trust and and know that I'm doing what I think I should be doing.
48:51
SPEAKER_04: And Courtney also believes in me to be able to do that is like kind of a wild whirlwind to to step in and so similarly to like to what Courtney was saying was someone just had to believe in you when you were 22 years old and and that happened for me as well at that time I didn't know that I should be asking for these things.
49:13
SPEAKER_04: And along this line Courtney has has been able to understand and be like we have to literally change the industry.
49:22
SPEAKER_04: We have to make an impact but for everybody for the judges for competitions for the students for the directors of the studios that are bringing them in I think it's just so insanely necessary.
49:34
SPEAKER_04: It it almost feels as if like that's what we should be focusing in on for the weekends anyway.
49:42
SPEAKER_04: And innately I think it is and I think if you have a a good dance competition judge like the three of us and Courtney still judging as well besides being the queen of jazz in the in uh the United States of America and the world is it's just to be able to be supported.
49:59
SPEAKER_04: I want to support your kids and Courtney supports me for that as well.
50:04
SPEAKER_04: And supports me in my education level and and to be able to go out and do that.
50:08
SPEAKER_04: I mean there have been things that have happened during competition weekends that we've called or texted court and been like hi this is happening it can't happen.
50:18
SPEAKER_04: And the next day we walk into the building and it's no longer happening.
50:21
SPEAKER_04: And to have someone that actually cares and is also engulfed in it because you still do it is so ridiculously necessary and doesn't exist except for I mean there are other people advocating let's be totally honest there are other there are wonderful competitions out there and I'm sure some good competitions that aren't IDA affiliated but to have this other person there that is that step between that says don't worry about your travel oh you wanna you want to make sure that your Ubers to the airport because you were required to fly out at six in the morning from LaGordia and those surge prices are astronomical but this other competition said that it was a a specific price point that you could go up to.
51:05
SPEAKER_04: It doesn't happen anymore with us.
51:06
SPEAKER_04: This is literally the precedent it is it is the the highest echelon of what of what you should be expecting from a dance competition judge.
51:16
SPEAKER_03: Yeah I think on the other side of it you know for the competitions like you know IDA has changed the game for judges you know 100% there's there's so everything you guys all just said there's so many perks to being an IDA judge.
51:31
SPEAKER_03: You have standards that you know and consistency that you can expect when you work for an IDA affiliated competition.
51:36
SPEAKER_03: You have Courtney as the advocate behind you every time you know backing you up, backing up your needs if if anything comes up and you know that's because these IDA affiliated competitions oftentimes are smaller.
51:48
SPEAKER_03: They have obviously very similar values to what Courtney and IDA have.
51:52
SPEAKER_03: So most of the time in an IDA world it's just seamless.
51:56
SPEAKER_03: You know what to expect it's consistent happens every time everything's great we go to our job and it's wonderful.
52:01
SPEAKER_03: But you know there are times where you're like, oh this venue, this hotel, this thing and you know that you can ask that question and have even while she's working on her weekend, she's on her break.
52:10
SPEAKER_03: She's not having a break and hanging out.
52:12
SPEAKER_03: She is texting back.
52:13
SPEAKER_03: She is calling another venue.
52:15
SPEAKER_03: She's calling somebody to make sure your problem is taken care of.
52:17
SPEAKER_03: But I think on the other side of it when it comes to the competitions and their needs, you know, IDA affiliated competitions use IDA for similar reasons.
52:26
SPEAKER_03: They can call up Courtney and say I need somebody last minute well she has 150 of us to reach out to.
52:32
SPEAKER_03: She has dedicated special, you know, specialty judges who couldn't sit here all day and talk about tap only, sit here all day and talk about hip hop only.
52:40
SPEAKER_03: And so if you need that person on your panel, if you're a competition who is really cognizant of casting your panel appropriately for each weekend, you know you can go to her and find somebody and they're going to be background checked, they're gonna be vetted, they're gonna be pre-screened and I've been on the other side of that for years as well, helping with pre-screens helping with vetting, you know, looking through their social media like we dive deep on these submissions.
53:03
SPEAKER_03: It is not just a blanket, oh, you have a resume done.
53:06
SPEAKER_03: Nope, I'm looking at who you are, where you have come from we're asking recommendations, we're looking through your background because we have to be able to stand up for you if something does happen to go wrong.
53:17
SPEAKER_03: We need to be able to back you up and say no, this person has A, B, and C credentials, you know, and that's what competitions can expect from an IDA judge.
53:25
SPEAKER_03: So I think that that is a huge benefit as well.
53:28
SPEAKER_03: Just the values aligning on all fronts is really something beneficial that I I wish more competitions would take advantage of.
53:35
SPEAKER_03: And like you said, Rob, and I've worked for them, there are competitions out there that that do all of those things independently of IDA.
53:42
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
53:43
SPEAKER_03: And they're few and far between but I'm grateful to those places I've worked for those places and it's I only choose to do that because I feel that they have the same values.
53:52
SPEAKER_03: Maybe they just have their system down pat.
53:54
SPEAKER_03: They don't need to go to an outside source.
53:56
SPEAKER_03: Right.
53:56
SPEAKER_03: And to that I say congratulations to you because I know how hard it is and for those competitions that don't choose to use IDA, you know, I've heard many reasons and we can get into that at another time but you know all of that to say you know I've been just like Rob, you know, from here from day one on the IDA roster in the trenches doing all this work with Courtney and you know Courtney does 99.999% of the work in all of it.
54:20
SPEAKER_03: You know she has helpers she has advocates she has people who she can turn to you know to try to help and get second opinions but Courtney Ortiz is a force and IDA is a a product of that and you know things are only getting better.
54:34
SPEAKER_01: So long live IDA we hope you enjoyed part two of our season seven finale episode of judging horror stories.
54:43
SPEAKER_01: Huge shout out to all of the judges around the country who submitted anonymous responses and helped contribute to this episode.
54:50
SPEAKER_01: We'd also like to thank IDA judges and dance professionals Brittany Johnson and Rob Gibbs for joining us as guests on this chat.
54:59
SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to follow them on Instagram.
55:01
SPEAKER_01: You can find Rob at rob.gibbs and Brittany at bean underscore Britney.
55:07
SPEAKER_01: Also check out Brittany's mental health therapy practice Empowered movement specializing in treating dancers competitive athletes and individuals healing from trauma to learn more about their virtual counseling or in-person workshops visit their website at empoweredmovement.com slash workshops don't forget to follow Making the Impact on Apple Podcasts Spotify Amazon podcasts and pretty much everywhere you listen to podcasts and if you want more exclusive episodes support our podcast by joining our Platinum Premium membership for only$5 a month.
55:39
SPEAKER_03: Subscribers receive free Making the Impact stickers, shout outs live on the air, ad-free listening and exclusive access to our QA episodes for members only.
55:47
SPEAKER_03: Join now at Impact Danceadjudicators.com slash platinumpream or click the link in our show notes.
55:54
SPEAKER_01: Season eight of Making the Impact a Dance Competition podcast is officially launching on Thursday September 3rd 2026.
56:01
SPEAKER_01: Stay tuned for some new updates, topics and guests joining us for some more inspiring and necessary chats all about the competitive dance world.
56:10
SPEAKER_01: If you have a topic idea during our summer months shoot us a DM or email for consideration.
56:17
SPEAKER_01: Wishing all of our dance families and friends around the world a wonderful summer and we will see you in season eight