Latest / Recovery Chronicles / Recovery Chronicles Ep. 197 - Jessie

Transcript

Recovery Chronicles Ep. 197 - Jessie · Recovery Chronicles

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Recovery Chronicles. I'm your host, Liz, an addiction
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: counselor at Heartview in Bismarck, North Dakota. This podcast is
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: dedicated to the real human stories of people in recovery
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: from alcohol and other drugs. People who have chosen change
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: and who wake up every day walking that journey. These
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: are stories of hope, healing, and resilience and proof that
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: transformation is possible. All right, I'm back again. And today
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I have Jesse with me.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Welcome, Jesse. Hello.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: What is your drug of choice?
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: My drug of choice was fentanyl and meth. Okay. Opiates. Yeah.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: I wasn't meth was later on, but opiates from when
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: I was 18 until I was 40.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: You're not that old. 44.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm 44.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: You look much younger than that.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Thank you. What is your sobriety date?
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: January 17th, 2023 will be four years for me.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: That's awesome.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Yes. First time I've gone into an extended amount of
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: time for sobriety for me.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: That's so beautiful.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: I was on Suboxone for a long time, but I
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: don't want to really count that because I abused it. Okay.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: And I was.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: On Ritalin, which I abused.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: So this is my first time without anything. Okay. So yeah,
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: four years without anything.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: And I also think that it's so powerful to admit
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: that you did abuse those medications that were prescribed by
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: a physician. Yes. Because so often people, especially in our
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: line of work, have that excuse of, Well, it's being
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: prescribed by a doctor.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: I'm not abusing it.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: It's okay. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I know. And I
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: told myself that for so many years, that it was,
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: I'm getting my Ritalin, you know, and I would run
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: out of it immediately. I would take it all at once.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: And my Suboxone, I would run out. I have to
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: go back, you know, a few weeks later for another prescription, which,
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: of course, they'll give you.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it was... Ultimately, and then the drinking and
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: then it was, you know, relapse after that. So, yeah, COVID.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: COVID was that was a nightmare all of itself, let
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: alone if you have a substance use disorder and are
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: trying to be sober and trying to navigate life sober.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. It was crazy.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: What was the moment for you that you realized, I
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: can't keep living like this?
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Mine was sitting in jail for the hundredth time and
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: going through withdrawals while I was in jail.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, God.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: And seeing so many people overdose and it just desensitizing
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: you where it wasn't that big of a deal after
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: a while.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Isn't that scary?
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, it's awful to think about now and think back
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: to seeing friends overdose and die in entryways of apartments
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: and just, yeah.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: And that being a normal part of your life.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. It's messed up.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: It really is.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: And I think the last time I'm going to jail
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: and cast kind of jail was, it was a eye
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: opener for me. It was just, uh, this is not
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: what I want. This is not what I want at all.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: And going to prison and all of it. Yes. Having just, I,
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Made me ready.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: And sometimes it really is some of those factors of
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: having the legal system literally punch you in the gut.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Yes. They needed to put me away from society for
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: a while to get myself better. Yeah. And I'm so
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: grateful that it happened.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: So grateful.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: I'm also grateful because if it wasn't for that and
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: you getting sober, then we wouldn't have.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Right. Exactly. I agree.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: And you are and watching you at work and watching
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: you is just it's so amazing how you can connect
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: with our clientele.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: Yes. I see myself in every single one of them
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: and they all know when they're whenever they're ready.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: You know, we're here.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: We're here.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Before recovery, what lie did addiction convince you was true?
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: That I wouldn't be anything more than a criminal addict.
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: That was kind of what I made in my mind was,
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to be a criminal. I'm not
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: going to be able to hold a job. I'm not
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: going to be able to pay rent or pay bills.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: And it used to blow my mind how people would
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: have nice cars and nice places to live. And when
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: I was homeless, I'm like, how do they do that?
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: You know, blow my mind. And yeah, now I do
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: it every day. I pay my bills. I pay my rent.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: I have a car, I have a place, you know?
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it was completely in his different worlds. It's
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: a different world.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: It is in doing those adult things like paying your bills.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: It used to blow my mind, too, that people could
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: actually pay their bills and pay them on time.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And have nice things. And yes.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: And be able to do fun things and afford fun things.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: And I'm over here like, what?
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Yes. Going to Fargo. And I remember this hotel in Fargo.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: I used to step inside to get warm when I
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: was homeless. And I always think, who can afford to
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: stay here? I was there last month. I went there
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: and it was like, oh my God, like it's, you know,
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: just things like that. They blow your mind.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: They really do. And it's crazy. And seeing and doing
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: those adult things and, you know, being able to put
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: things on auto pay and not have to worry about it. Yeah.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: Paying your rent and paying your car payment and not
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: even having to think.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: Twice about it. Just knowing that you're going to be good.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: You're okay.
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Because you're not wasting your money on ridiculous things.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: Everything, yes. Yeah.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: What's something you survived that people never saw?
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: Overdose, grief, grieving. I think a big one was I
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: was panhandling in Fargo one time and some lady came
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: and She's like, get a job, loser, and threw a
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: hot coffee on me. That will always be in my head.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: And I remember asking for a dollar. I asked her
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: for a dollar. And she's like, get a job, loser,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: and threw this coffee in my face. And it was like, yeah.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: And it was so humiliating and so demeaning that it
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: was just, that will always be in my head.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: So whenever I see somebody asking for a dollar... I'm
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: still nice to them and I go out of my
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: way to try to help if someone's homeless.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Cause you've experienced that and you've experienced all of
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: the negative connotations that come with homelessness.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: And those weren't choices that you necessarily made consciously. You
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: didn't wake up one day and decide, well, I'm just
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: going to leave my apartment behind and go live on
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: the streets.
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: Of Fargo, North Dakota.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Right. It just, it's, How it happens.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: And it happens before you even know that it's really happening.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: And then it's too late.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: And all of a sudden, that's where you're at.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: And kindness is free. Yeah. It costs you nothing.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: Just even to say hi or smile.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: You know? Yeah.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: To be kind to people. I know I tell people
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: that all the time that I am.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: I smile at people everywhere. It's what I do. It's
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: not me acknowledging that I know you.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: Right. I know what you mean. I get the same thing.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: And it makes you approachable. It makes you just change
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: the energy around you. That's what we're trying to do
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: is try to make the world a little bit better.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, even just a tiny bit better. So if me
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: smiling at people at the grocery store can, I mean,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: I don't know what other people are going through. Somebody
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: could be having the worst day of their entire lives.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: And a smile from a stranger could mean everything.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I've cut people off on driving. And they were, well,
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: until I smiled. And they were like, oh. They smiled back.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, I got myself that one. Yeah.
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, sometimes I just, I don't intentionally do rude
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: things like that. But sometimes it happens. Right.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: It just happens. You don't even mean to. But smiling
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: changes everything.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: It does.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: It really does. And I love seeing that smile as
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: you laugh. come in to work and you know seeing
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: your smile around it just it does it brings such
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: a light to.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: Heart view it's a positive i i just it's a
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: goal of mine to set a positive culture of wherever
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: you go just to make things a little bit.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: Better well you're on the right track thank you what
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: part of recovery surprised you.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: The most just how everything's worked out the path Being
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: on the right path and how things work out and
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: the littlest of things, you know? And like, I worked
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: at BSC and I worked full time and I make
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: good money. And I remember worrying about bills and then
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: dropping down to part-time and working at Heartview and I'm
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: still paying my bills. And I don't know how, but
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: it's worked out. It just has worked out. Now I'm
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: going to school and you know, doing her for you.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: So the path, I don't know, trusting the path and
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: it does work out.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: It does. What are you going to school for?
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Business development.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: Yes. For recovery related type of businesses.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: That's amazing.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: Housing, specializing in housing. That's what I want to do.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: That's huge. Yeah. Especially for somebody with your background.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: And it's something I just... It's amazing. I get so
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: excited doing my schoolwork. I get excited. I have to
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: take a break because I'll be shaking and sweating. And
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: I'm like, I had to calm down. Like I have
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: to go to bed in two hours and I'm all excited. Yeah.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: Hyped up right now over homework. Who would have thought
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: that would happen?
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Oh my God. I know. I know. I know.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: What's harder, getting sober or staying emotionally honest?
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: Neither.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: Once you're sober, they go hand in hand. Yeah. They do.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: They really do, I think. Once you get sober, it does.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: It goes hand in hand.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you got to be honest. You got to be
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: honest with yourself, with your support, with whatever that support
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: looks like for you. You got to be honest. Yeah.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: Because if you're not being honest, then they can't help. Right.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: If somebody comes to you and says, Jesse, I'm really
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: struggling and I'm trying to be sober, but I... And
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: you're going to know how to help. Yeah. And if
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: you can't help, you're going to help them find help. Oh, yeah.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: That's a daily thing we bear with. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: It's the self-honesty is everything in your sobriety. And it's continuing.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: It's ongoing. It's, you know.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: What does a bad recovery day look like for you now?
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Not being able to go to the gym. Which has
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: gotten to be huge in my recovery. And a disruption
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: in my routine. Yeah. My routine's everything. And I hate
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: the weekends other than Sunday because football's on Sunday. But
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: other than that, I like going to work because I
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: usually get to work about 5.50 in the morning every day.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: Holy moly, that's so early.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: I'm at the gym at 5.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Good gravy.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: And it's just something that I took with me from prison.
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: It's the routine. And having that routine. And if something
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: happens and I don't know, it messes with my daily routine.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: It throws my whole day off at the end. And
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: then I'm not able to sleep because I'm like, what
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: did I miss? What did I do wrong? All those things.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that's the bad day for me.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: And it seems so wild to me when in recovery
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: we talk about routines and how important routines are. Because
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: in active addiction, everything was such chaos that now to
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: thrive in that routine and that structure, it just kind
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: of blows my mind a little bit. Even having almost
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: 12 years sober, I'm still like, holy moly, what are
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: we doing here with this structure?
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: I know. And then we thrive. It's amazing to have it.
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: And just that structure, which I hated structure my entire
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: life until I got sober.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Yep. I fought it tooth and nail every step of
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: the way. And then I got sober. And now I'm like, okay,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: I need my structure. I need my routine. And if
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: I'm not doing my routine, then my whole day is
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: all out of whack.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: My routine and sleep. That's so important.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Yes. What's something recovery gave you that has nothing to
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: do with sobriety dates?
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Honesty with myself. Self-awareness and controlling my mindset. Changing my mind.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: And that was something that happened in prison because I
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: didn't have drugs there. Yeah. And I remember early going
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: to jail, that's all I thought about was drugs. And
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: I hope I can find drugs when I get to prison.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: I hope this and I hope that. And then you
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: kind of drive yourself crazy with it. And the dreams
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: are nonstop. So when you're awake, you're having them. When
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: you're dreaming, you're having them. It was just really... Self-awareness
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: to be like, okay, this is driving me crazy. I
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: need to think about something else. So finding other things
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: to think about during those cravings really started something with
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: me and my brain and then building off that.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: And using that later on. And I, yeah, even now,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: you know, it's just changing your mindset to making it positive.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: And I don't even have words to describe how that is.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: It's just.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It just evolves and it happens.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: It does. So fast.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: And it really does. And then you look back on
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: something and you're like, man, okay, that, yeah. Yeah. I
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: handled that.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. It really is. Because people I
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: was in prison with will even say I've changed so
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: much now compared to the way I was in prison. Yeah. And.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: It makes me cringe when they bring up things I
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: said or whatever. I'm like, oh, I don't feel like
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: that anymore.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: That's not who I am anymore. So it's the keeping
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: a positive mindset, having good intentions, period.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Yes. And being able to find the positivity. Is our
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: bad thing still going to happen?
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: That's inevitable. That's life. That's being human. But even being
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: able to find some of the beauty and some of
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: the positive, even in some of those bad moments. Yeah.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Makes them hit less hard. Yeah. And easier to deal with.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: And there's a positive in everything.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Yes. There really is. What sober habit would active addiction
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: you make fun of?
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: Counting calories. Paying my Wi-Fi bill.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You mean you don't steal the neighbor's Wi-Fi anymore?
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: Not anymore. And I have my own. Yes, it's counting calories,
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: you know. Going to the gym because I feel like
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: I need it right away in the morning. You know,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: it's just those little things like, yeah, watching what I
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: eat somewhat.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: But it's those little things I would have laughed about,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Those healthy habits. Yeah.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Who would have thought that we could do things like that?
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: It's ridiculous.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: What phrase from treatment or meetings lives rent-free in your head?
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: If you hang out with crack dealers long enough, you're
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: going to smoke crack. If you go to a barber.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: You're going to get a haircut.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Yeah. It's who you're around. Those type of... Yeah.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: And that's something that stuck in my head and I
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: did treatment in prison. Okay. btc actually and it's something
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: i heard in one of my groups there yeah i
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: had an amazing lac and she would say some of
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: the most real stuff ever and it sticks it's those
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: little things stick.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: They do and sometimes it's those real life moments even
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: from somebody in a professional capacity like an lac and
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: that says, says something that's real. Yeah. And not, it
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily have anything to do with something that we
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: learned in a book.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Right. Right. I agree.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: That it's just like, man, kind of smacks you in
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: the forehead.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: And people need that. They really do. Especially this.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: I agree with you.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: The, yes. The people that we work with.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know I needed quite a few smacks
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: in the face.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Me too. Me too.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: And sometimes it does happen with words to where it's like, man, yep,
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: if you hang out with crack dealers, you're going to
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: smoke crack. You hang out in a barber shop, you're
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: going to get a haircut. Those things still, for me,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: live rent-free in my head. And I'm like, it's all
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: about who I'm surrounding myself with. And if I'm surrounding
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: myself with negative people, then I'm going to become negative
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: and get into that negative mindset.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: It's contagious. Mm-hmm.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Just like the positivity, you know, seeing you come in
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: in the morning and smile and say good morning, you know,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: is like, okay, today's a good day.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's most of the LACs are like, hi, good morning.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: But then there's some of them, they're like, but then
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: the next day they're like, good morning, Jesse. But I
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: love it. Yes. It's setting the environment, making it positive.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: Yes. And that is so important for us. The people
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: that we work with, because you sometimes bring them in
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: and help them get into services directly off the street.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Yes. And they're terrified.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: To do anything different than what they've known for so
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: long that then seeing that friendly face of, okay, I
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: know that guy.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I know him.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: And they've done that quite a bit. They show up
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: and they're like, where's, is there a Jesse here? Yes.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: And I love that. And I'll sit with them and
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: talk to them and make sure that they're, in the right.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: Place yes which is so important and i think that
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: it's and i think that heartview as a whole has
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: kind of an advantage because we do have you recovery
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: coaching yes to bring those people in and make sure
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: that they get to where they need to go. And
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: cause it is scary.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: It is. I like to go out of my way
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: when they come in for their intake appointments for their assessments.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: And there are a big long line of people out
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: there and I go up and I'll introduce myself and say,
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm a recovery coach here and I'm, I'm this,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: I am in recovery myself and I'll come in and
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: check on you guys in a little bit and then
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: I'll come back and I'll, so they see me, they
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: know who we are.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And having, yeah, having that face.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: It's a big deal.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: It is a big deal. And yeah, then being able
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: to come back and, you know, even if they can't remember,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: you know, where they're supposed to be, what group they're in,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: who their counselor is going to be. If they can remember,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: ask for Jesse. Ask for that guy, Jesse, that introduced me.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Himself to me. Yes. Yes.
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: They do that too. It's amazing. I love it.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: And yeah. And so then it's like, okay, yes, you
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: got in the door. Okay. I'm here.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: I will walk with you to your counselor's office. I
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: will introduce you. I, you know. Yes. There's anything that
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: you need. And then you still come in and check
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: on people after they've been there a couple of days.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: Stop in and, hey, are you still doing okay? You know,
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: that's so powerful.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: And I've heard so many of people that have come
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: into my group that have said things about you guys
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: as recovery coaches. And, you know, then they see you
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: in the hallways and it's, hey, they helped me get here. Yeah.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: And that's so beautiful to me that they remember some
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: of those things and hold on to that piece of hope.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Hope's everything.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: It is. Who are you becoming now that survival mode
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: isn't driving the bus?
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: Advocate for change. Advocate for unsheltered individuals, people that are homeless.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: That's my passion is people struggling with addiction and mental
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: health that are homeless. Yeah. You know, I was there
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: not that long ago. So it's, yeah, advocate for change.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: We need that change. And we need passionate people like
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: you that are going to push that envelope and to
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: push for that change.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: And not let anything dim my light.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Do not ever let anyone or anything
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: dim that light, Jesse. Yep. What's something that you had
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: to grieve in recovery?
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: Friends that have passed away, friends that died. That's the
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: big one. Yeah. And in recovery, seeing an OD on
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: the news or going to a training for peer support
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: stuff and finding out one of your people that you
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: knew in the past passed away. And it's hard. It's,
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: you know, addictions. And I always get angry at addiction
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: for that. Yeah. And tell myself, just keep moving forward,
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Keep going.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: You weren't able to save them, but you can still
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: make a change. Yes.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: It's crazy to go from, this is so normal, you know,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: seeing people overdose and losing people to... Oh, I'm so
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: mad at the disease of addiction because they took somebody again.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Again. Yeah. A good person.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: Yes. How do you tell the difference between a craving
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: and an emotion?
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: To me, emotion is a signal about how you're feeling.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: And the craving is an urge to change how you're feeling.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Oh, I like that. Yeah. Yeah.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: And that's, yeah, that's probably the best way to describe it.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: I just quit it. I quit nicotine as of October 1st.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: So 22 days without any nicotine. And the cravings are
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: a lot different than they were than drugs. It's like,
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: they're strong. They're there all the time. Not all the time,
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: but after meals type of stuff. Exactly.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Crazy parts of your routine that you don't even, I
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: quit smoking eight years ago. So I, I get it. Um,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: and then I have been sober. December will be 12 years.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: So I get both pieces and yeah, there's parts of
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: my routine that like, I didn't even realize involved smoking
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: and Until after I quit and I'm like, man.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: I know. I know. It's so different. It's different.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: What do I do now?
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: Yes. I know. I have a stress ball all the time.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: I wean myself off a stress ball too.
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I've got all kinds of fidgets and different things
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: on my desk because sometimes I just need to do something.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Yes. I know. I agree.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: And it is, and it's such a different kind of
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: craving than it was for drugs and alcohol.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: It's a stress thing. Whenever you get stressed, I'd always vape.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Now it's not there, so it's.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Now what do I do?
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: Right. Okay.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: I know. I know.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: I get in my car. I need to roll the
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: window down.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: No, you don't.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Right? Right.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: And mine's snacks. Like, I love snacking. So, like, but
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: then I got to watch with snacks. So, I have
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: a great big thing of cashews in my car. I
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: have snacks in my pockets usually. Everywhere I go, it's like,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: You don't have to worry about washing tissues in the laundry,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: but you have to worry about washing your snacks.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: Yes. I know. My Oreos are something. My little.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, fuck.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: And it is. And it's just it's wild. And people
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: that and then I remember when I first got sober,
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: people kept telling me, oh, you should quit smoking, too.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: You should quit smoking. And, you know, I'm like, have
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: you lost your ever loving mind?
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: One thing at a time.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But now I wish that I would have done
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: it together. Yeah.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: I know what you mean because you've got two different
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: dates now and you got two. I know.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And changing all of my habits at one time
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: rather than just changing these habits and then later on
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: changing all of these other habits because I'm still smoking
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: is wild.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: I know. I know.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: What coping skill sounded ridiculous at first but actually worked?
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Counseling. Going to the gym. Spending time with loved ones.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Journaling.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Taking time for myself. Journaling is my last. Yeah. My
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: last that I would go to. If none of this
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: stuff works.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Then I'll journal.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Journal.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Because I hate it. But it works.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: It's effective. And it's. I just don't like doing it.
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: Because then I. I can't go back and look. Because
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: I can tell by my writing. If I'm upset. If I'm.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: I just don't want to read it again.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: And it's, and it's funny that you bring up like
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: the difference in your handwriting. I have had people, cause
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: I have people in my group journal, we journal every
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: day in group. And I have had people that have
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: gone back after being with me for two or three
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: months and having two or three months of sobriety versus
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: that first couple of days. They're like, who was writing it?
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: I know. It makes me nervous to even read.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: And like, yeah. What kind of things did I write down?
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Because if somebody else reads this, I might wind up
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: locked up in a padded room. Yes.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm always worried about is like if my
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: girlfriend or somebody is going to find my journal, like,
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: do I tear it up or do I get rid
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: of it? But I should probably keep it. But yeah,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: I know. Counseling is a big one for me. I
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: really I don't want to say enjoy it because I
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: don't really enjoy it.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Nobody really does. It's fine.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But it's good. It's so good for you. It is.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: And that's even something that me as a counselor, I push.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, we all need somebody to talk to.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: That is totally disconnected from our entire lives.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: Yes. I agree. And I feel like I always worry
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: about my mental health stuff coming up because that's what
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: kept me using was mental health stuff. So staying, keeping
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: that in check.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: And I think having a counselor, someone third party completely
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: separated from your life is huge and having that because
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: I want that to be fixed and not come up later. Yeah.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: And because, yeah, those sometimes are things, those mental health things,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: those two can come back and smack you in the
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: face if you're not dealing with it.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, they will. They will.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: And not in a good way either.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Where. you know, it just kind of wakes you up. No,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: it smacks you and then you wind up going back
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: down a really unhealthy path again.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's why I think keeping that in check is
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: so important. Yes.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: What does self-care realistically look like for you?
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: Self-care?
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Let's see.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Going to the gym. Working on my mental health and
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: physical health. So I lost 75 pounds since I started
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: last year at Harfew. Yeah.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah. That's incredible. I know.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: And it's, I go to the gym every morning at
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: 5 a.m. Playing basketball and weightlifting and I honestly haven't
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: changed any of my eating habits. I'm always hungry. So
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: I'm always eating. But I'm not really putting on any weight.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: And it's all just because of my metabolism. Just physical health,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: mental health, finding grounding. I mean, it all works together.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: It really does. And it's so crazy once you kind
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: of get some of those pieces in a stable place.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: And then you kind of realize how much all of.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: Them are connected they're all connected yes they are definitely.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: And so working on all of them is huge it's
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: you know you can't just work on one piece you
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: have to work on the whole piece you work on
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: the whole person.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Yes i agree i agree um who held hope for
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: you before you could hold it for yourself my mom
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: for sure always been there always was there even When
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: I was using and living on the street and homeless,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: she wouldn't give me any money, which was good.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: Because my parents gave me money whenever growing up until
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: they realized what was going on. And then they were
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: smart enough to be like, no.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: But support. And then she was always happy when I
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: went to jail because she knew where I was and
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: that I was alive.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: And they were safe.
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: Safe. Yes. And now... It's such on a different level.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: It's insane. Our relationship, my parents and I, we get
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: along great. And trust, I'm welcome in their house again.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: Because before I was stealing. I'm welcome in their house
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: when they're not even home. And they're always wanting me
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: to come home. They're always calling me. They're always wanting
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: to know what's going on. They'll come down and visit.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: They're amazing people for sure.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Well, they have to be. They raised you. Yes.
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: And I hear that so often that, you know, parents are,
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: you know, say, at least when my child is in jail,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: I know where they are. I know that they're safe.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: And I can't imagine that feeling as a parent.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: And having that thought process of, I mean, nobody wants
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: their child in jail or prison or any type of incarceration.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: But knowing that you're not going to get a phone
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: call in the middle of the night saying that something
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: terrible happened because they're in Cass County Jail or they're
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: in Burley Morton County Detention.
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: And now they don't have to worry about that. Right.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: I know. I know.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: And so then having that trust rebuilt, you said that
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: you are welcome in their home. You can be there
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: when they're not home. They want you around. is such
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: a beautiful turnaround for all of you to be able
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: to have that relief of love and unconditional love that
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: our parents give us no matter what happens.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: I know. It's amazing. It really is.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: It is. And loving us when we aren't lovable.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Because there were so many times that my mom loved
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: me even though I was not lovable at all.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I know what you mean. My mom too. Yeah.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: So shout out to the moms out there.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, definitely. Yeah.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: What would you say to someone terrified to ask for help?
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: Whenever you're ready, let me know. You're not alone. I
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: say it daily.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: And it's at work or I run into someone at Walmart.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: I run into someone while we're doing street outreach. It's
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: There's so many people that'll even see me and be like,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: I'm not ready yet, but I'll let you know when
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, whenever you're ready, let me know.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: You're not alone. And I'm like, okay.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Having, yeah. And having somebody else, even somebody that you
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: don't know, hold that space for you of, it's okay
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: that you're not ready yet, but whenever you are, reach.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Out to me. Yes. Stay alive.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: That's what I would say. Stay alive.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Good for you.
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: What is the best thing someone said to you in
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: early recovery?
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: I'll believe in you until you believe in yourself.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: That's powerful.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: And having those people that are willing to believe in
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: you is so big. Especially in early recovery when everything
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: is a disaster.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Yes. It's new. It's change. You're peeking into a different
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: world that you don't even know. And it's so different.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: And you're used to always having something. Something. And you're
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: thinking of the option of complete sobriety.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: Which is scary.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: It's terrifying.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's terrifying. So, yeah. Yeah. And then having someone
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: be like, you know, I believe in you. It's a
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: big deal.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: It is a big deal because in those moments, we
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: don't believe in us. And a lot of times for
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: people in recovery, it takes a long time to start
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: to believe in yourself.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: So hearing outside people say, hey, I believe in you.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: I think that you can do this.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: Builds that foundation for people to start to believe in themselves.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: Because if.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: If Jesse believes in me, if my mom believes in me,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: if my sisters believe in me, then dang it, I
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: can believe in me too.
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Just a little bit of confidence.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: There's a long ways.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: It does.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Start something.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: It starts building that. It plants that seed in our
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: heads of we do deserve good things. Because a lot
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: of times in early recovery, we don't think that we
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: deserve good things.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: Self-hate. All that self-hate. Yeah.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: And then you have to actually feel that self-hate instead
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: of pushing it away with all the drugs and the
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: alcohol and the chaos of active addiction. Yes. It's hard.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: It is. Yeah.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: So I think that it's so, I do, I think
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: that it's so beautiful that you hold that space and
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: you have that belief in others before they can believe
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: in themselves.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: And I tell people that at work and it almost
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: makes me cry every time I say it. You know
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: what I mean?
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: And, yeah, it's a big deal.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: It is. And I can tell that you genuinely mean it.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: It's not just something that you're, you know, picked up
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: in a training or something that, you know, is like, oh, yeah,
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: say this because it's, you know, you're supposed to. Right.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: It was half-staffed.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: What is the most underrated recovery tool?
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: Self-talk. Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: It's okay to talk to yourself.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And keeping it positive and not letting it get
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: back to like it was when you were using because
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: that's the worst is telling yourself you're ugly, you're not
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: worth it, or nobody, you shouldn't deserve this and all
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: those things and telling yourself just to keep going. Yeah.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: I know I was told at the very beginning of
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: my recovery when I was really struggling with that negative self-talk,
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: My very first sponsor said to me, how would you
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: feel if somebody said those things out loud to your
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: mom or your grandma or your sister?
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: Or one of your nieces?
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It'd be awful.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: He'd be pissed off.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: I would fly off the handle if somebody was saying
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: those things to somebody that I loved.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: So why say it to myself?
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: And so that's always stuck with me that... to help
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: change that negative inner voice to something more positive is remembering, okay,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: if somebody said this to somebody I loved, I would
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: flip out.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I agree. It's, and it takes a while to
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: get rid of. It takes a while. Just consistency of
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: being positive, reminding yourself, you know, over and over and over.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: And then eventually it just, comes natural it does and
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: you start to really believe in yourself yeah.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: And it's it does it sometimes becomes so redundant that
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: you keep telling yourself these positive things that you almost
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: feel like you're driving yourself crazy.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah i know exactly what you mean yes i
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: know i know i know but.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Then you keep doing it and then it just becomes
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: natural and it becomes i am doing good things yeah
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: i can do the good i can do hard things
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: i deserve good things i am a good person i'm
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: worth it yes all of those beautiful things that we
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: tell everybody else we then believe For ourselves.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: Every once in a while, it'll slip in an old
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: thought and I'll laugh at it now. I'm like, oh
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: my God, are you serious?
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Get out of here.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: A phrase you're tired of hearing in recovery.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: Keep it simple, stupid. Oh my God.
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's a lot of the AA stuff.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: And I'm a smart recovery facilitator. So we do our
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: groups and outpatient and inpatient. And we usually give them
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: a choice of, okay, do you guys want to do
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: big book, NA, or do you want to do smart?
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: And they always pick smart. Thank God. Because I do
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: not want to read the big book. And it's nothing
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: against the big book. It's just.
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: Not a tool that is right for you.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: Not a tool that's right for me.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: And that's okay? Yeah. I love smart recovery. I think
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: that it is fabulous. I mean, I started off in
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: the rooms of AA.
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: Me too, yeah.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: But there's a different dynamic to smart recovery that I
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: think is also a very important tool for people to use.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: It doesn't just have to be NA or AA or AA.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: a combination of the two 12-step programs. Right. It can
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: be smart recovery and NA and AA and it all works.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: Yes. And everybody's different. And if every recovery is so different.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: It is. If it can help someone, then I love that. Yes.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: One thing sobriety did not magically fix.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: My mental health issues. And I quit drugs and all that.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: And then it was like, I have anxiety. Where'd that
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: come from? Like, I didn't even honestly knew what anxiety
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: was until I got sober. And I'm like, what is this?
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: And it's just years of pushing things away. Yeah. And
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: in counseling, I learned to feel it. Just feel it.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: If you're at work, feel it for five, 10 minutes
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: and then let it go. Yeah. But it really works
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: to just feel it and let it go. Yeah. And
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: the mental health issues, you know, PTSD and childhood trauma,
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: all those things that everyone's got.
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Everyone has something.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Yes. Everybody does. And, yeah, and figuring out how to
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: work through that. I mean, some people figure out how
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: to work through it without turning to negative behaviors and,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: you know, drugs and alcohol.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: I'm impressed with that.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Me too. They're weird. Right.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: I'm impressed. How did you do that?
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think they're the unicorns of the universe.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Yes, for sure. For sure. I know. I'm like, how
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: did you do that? How did you? Yeah.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: It still kind of blows my mind.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: And when I meet people like that and I'm like,
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: you what?
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: And you didn't numb yourself for 15 years? What?
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: Right? I know.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: But it is. It just, those mental health pieces, just
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: because we're sober, don't. magically disappear they really don't as
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: much as we really want them to yeah i prayed
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: at the beginning of my sobriety for a long time
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: that you know just make this go away.
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: I agree counseling for me and tms i've done tms.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: Amazing yeah using those tools yes you know like counseling
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: tms emdr all of those things that help and figuring
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: out what tools will work for you. I think that's
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: so important to figure out those pieces because they're all
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: pieces of the same puzzle.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: Right. It's just making them work, navigating through.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: What keeps you sober on hard days?
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: My self-discipline does. Positive mindset, self-care. I need to connect
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: with people. So whenever I'm having a bad day, it's
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: important to talk to someone. And over the phone is good.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: But in person for me is better. I'll go to
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: Walmart and buy some stuff and talk to the person
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: that's checking me out. You know what I mean? Or
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: like go to Shields and buy something and have a
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: bunch of questions on something. Yeah. Just those little things
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: that I've learned to use. The connecting with people is
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: a big deal. Yeah.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And you had mentioned COVID earlier, and that was
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: such a huge piece that was taken away from everybody.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: And as humans, we are very social creatures and we
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: thrive in those human connections. Yeah. So then when you
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: take that away from people, even if it's not through
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: like COVID, but it's through substance use and, you know, incarceration,
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: those types of things. It's so hard on people to
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: have that piece taken away.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah. I think of the people in rural communities
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: that are, you know, I have an uncle that lives
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: by himself and is out alone. And when I go
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: over there, cause I go visit him when I go
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: home and he's got weeks of things that he's catching
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: me up on, you know, and it's important that just
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: someone to connect with this, everything.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: Yes. Define recovery in three words.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: Healing, hope, and freedom.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Because freedom for me is big because of the prison
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: thing and the jail thing and all that. Hope, of course.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: And healing is, you know, part of your recovery and
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: you're going to be healing lifelong.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. This is a lifelong thing. This isn't something
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: that just fixes itself overnight.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: We have to continue to work on it. We have
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: to continue to heal and grow and learn for the
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: rest of our lives.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, I agree. What might have worked the first or
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: two years of recovery might not work anymore. So you
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: got to find new tools. You got to find new
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: things and new outlets and things you love and things
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: you are passionate about and surround yourself with them.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: Yes. And those passions are going to change. And those
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: things that, you know, that you enjoy and that you
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: love are going to change because we change as we grow,
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: as we age, as.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: Evolve. Yes. I agree.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: What gives you hope today?
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: My sobriety. Spirituality. I've really started to learn more about
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: my spirituality. Um, I read the daily reading and that helps, um,
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: I'm Native American, so I read the elders' reading, and
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: it's really amazing. And nature is a big deal, being outside.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: I love animals and nature and all that, so it
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: helps me. And then my sobriety is just remembering where
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: I came from and where I'm at. That gives you hope.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. I.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I love technology and other times I absolutely despise it.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: But seeing some of those past versions of me when
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: I was in active addiction and then in early recovery
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: and then within the last couple of years, it's crazy
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: to me the transformation that has happened or like the
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: weird random posts that like pop up in my memories
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: on Facebook and I'm like, Somebody should have taken my
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: phone away.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: Yes. I know what you mean. Me too. I get so,
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: I can't even look at it. Oh my God. Makes
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: me cringe.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: Even thinking about.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: I should have had to do a breathalyzer and a
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: drug test before I could do anything with my telephone.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: I know. Me too. Me too. It's embarrassing.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then remembering, you know, okay. That was not
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: an unhealthy, that was a very unhealthy version of me.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: The healthy version of me would not do that. Right.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, I know. I feel the same way about me
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: and all my last, my posts in the last 10 years.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: It's just crazy. Yes.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: Thank God for recovery.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. And then being able to learn from those things.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: And yeah, remembering where I was and at my lowest
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: lows and now to be able to be here.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: Yes. Transforming lives.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Transforming lives, making a difference, doing something.
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: Yes. And those are the things that you're doing as
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: well with, you know, all of the things that you're doing.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: And I'm, yeah, I'm here for it to make those changes.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: I am here for those changes because those changes need
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: to be made.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: What would you tell the version of yourself who thought
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: they'd never make it out?
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: Stay alive. Be good to yourself and others.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Especially yourself.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: You know, I mean, did we hurt people in our
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: active addiction? Yes, absolutely.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: But people don't realize how much we've hurt ourselves either.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: And not just physically, but mentally and emotionally because of
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: all the trash that we fill our own heads with. Yeah.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: And I think that's part of the hardest part in
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: recovery is remembering because it is your voice that's lying
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: to you.
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: Which is the worst.
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: It's not your parents or somebody who supports you. It's
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: your own voice. So why would my voice lie to me? Right.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: So those things must be true. Exactly. And yeah, navigating
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: that and figuring out that, no, they're lying. Yes. Yes.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: If someone is listening one day sober, what do you
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: want them to know?
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: You got this. Don't give up. Keep moving forward.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: We say it all the time. We do.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Just keep moving forward. It doesn't matter if it's little
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: tiny baby steps.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: It's moving forward.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: That is the important thing is to just keep. moving forward. Yeah.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: One minute at a time.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: Yes. If you have to break it down to one
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: minute at a time, you go for it. I will
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: sit with you for an entire minute. Yeah.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: And pretty soon that minute turns into five minutes and
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: then 10 minutes and, oh, now it's been an hour
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: and I'm still okay.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: And then it's 30 days and it's 60. Then you're
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: Telling others the same thing, you know, it's crazy how
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: it works.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: It is crazy how it works, but it does work.
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: It works.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: Definitely works.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: What's your reason to stay?
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: Sobriety, sobriety, sobriety. That's, I don't want to call it
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: my religion, but it's, it's up there.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: It's, up there it's without bad I wouldn't have anything
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: or anyone or yeah.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: It's everything to me yes I love that recovery saying
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: that says addiction is giving up everything you love for
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: one thing and recovery is giving up one thing for everything.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: Yes that's powerful yes that's so and it's so true
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: And people don't understand that. Did I want to love
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: drugs and alcohol over my family, over jobs, over significant others,
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: over food? Right. Water. Nutrients.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: No, I didn't want to. But it happened. Yeah.
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: It turned into our error.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: What we needed to survive, which is messed up.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: Yes. And now we have sobriety.
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: That is what we've replaced that with.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: Yes. Thank God. Absolutely. Thank God.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: And I think it's amazing that you have come as
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: far as you have and are now using your experiences
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: to help change that narrative for others.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, thank you. Thank you.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Jesse, for coming on.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I love this.
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: This was, yeah, this was amazing. And the further you
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: get and, you know, get to changing some of those things,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: we'll bring you back on and see what you're changing.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: I love that. Yes, I love that. Thank you so much.
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, thank you.