Latest / Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman / Anthony Smith on TBI, CTE and the Hidden Brain Trauma of Naval Special Warfare | Broken Brains Ep. 105

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Anthony Smith on TBI, CTE and the Hidden Brain Trauma of Naval Special Warfare | Broken Brains Ep. 105 · Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hey folks, welcome to another edition of Broken Brains with your host, Bruce Parkman, the official podcast of the Mac Parkman Foundation.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, these are our new shirts, where we look at the issue of repetitive brain trauma from two aspects repetitive head impacts from contact sports and repetitive blast exposure from the from our military service.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: And we can say repetitive head impacts from military service as well, because we're getting ready to talk about that.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: And why is this important?
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because this aspect of life and its impacts are not trained in our medical, nursing, psychological, or suicide prevention communities, meaning that millions of Americans are exposed to the impacts of repetitive brain trauma, and none of them actually know what is going on inside their heads.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that's makes you the front line of defense for these folks out there, for those that you love.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: On today's guest, a returning guest.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: We love these guys, man.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: They always come back.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: They always got something to say, and they're always raging hell about taking care of people.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: And we're honored today to have Michael Anthony Smith, a retired U.S.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Navy Special Warfare combatant craft crewman with over 24 years in the Naval Special Warfare and Service of Sport of Naval Special Warfare.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: With over 12,000 hours on swift fast boats, Michael has endured millions, and we are talking millions, folks, of subconcussive impacts and the extreme physical toll of maritime special operations, an invisible battleground that has left countless operators with lifelong injuries.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: After retiring, Michael became one of the leading voices documenting the true cost of this mission set.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: He conducted a groundbreaking survey of more than 300 former SWIC operators, revealing near universal signs of traumatic brain injury, chronic pain, and decline dysfunction, as well as the broader condition now known as operator syndrome.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: He has also recorded over 25 SWIC TVI interviews giving a voice to the men behind these missions.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Today, he continues to advocate for recognition, research, and access to life-changing treatments for the SWIC community in the broader soft world.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Anthony, welcome to the show, sir, and I appreciate you coming on.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: And my apologies for all the pain getting this thing started, and that actually got you on this on the show, man.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, Bruce.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm glad to be here.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to talk to you guys again.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Last time I was here, you know, we had a lot of good things to talk about, but uh this time we recently published an article called Neurotrauma in Naval Special Warfare Combat Crewmen and Fast Flood Operators.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's in the Neurosurgery Journal.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: And right now it's in PAP online.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's floating around as well.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a lot of good data in there I really wanted to talk about.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm glad to be here.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for the folks that didn't see your last show, Anthony, let's talk about the life of a SWIC, you know, uh combatant craft crewman, man.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've seen some videos.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of the few military MOSs where Penit event impacts is a significant part of military service.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can't avoid them.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So talk to our audience about what's it like to be a combat crewman and uh what what what what's the toll taken on your brain and your body?
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we have a selection course that we go through.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's in Coronado.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of built, mirrored after what they do in BUDS.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not a it's not BUDS, it's not as hard as BUDS, but it's kind of along along the same vein of training, running, swimming, off school courses, uh, ground printing, all kinds of crazy things.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but we send guys to a selection course, they go through a qualification course.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's about a six-month process now.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then once they go to a team, they're assigned to a boat detachment, and then uh they start workups and training for deployment.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: The average guy probably takes about two and a half to three years of training before they actually go on a deployment.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: But when we deploy our mission set, was designed specifically to insert Navy SEALs in maritime environments for combat operations.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: So we're open ocean, we're uh in the rivers.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh any target that they have to take down that requires a water uh warborne entry, we're the guys that get them there.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so in a nutshell, that's what we do, how it takes a toll on our body.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: When a boat's moving through the water, these are cigarette type boats, mostly speed boats.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: They go 50, 60 miles an hour, some go faster than that.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: They can slam into a wave and have an impact, a wave impact, at one-second intervals.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: That could be potentially 3,600 impacts in an hour, or if it's a two-second interval, then it's half of that, about to 1800 impacts.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: These impacts can range from two G's.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times they're 20 and 30 G's.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we've we've had measurements at 40 40 G's and higher in terms of impacts.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's even reports of 100 G's, which I don't have my hands on that data.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: But when uh when a boat hits a wave and it hits at 20 or 30 G's, the if you have a rotational force from a lateral impact, not a vertical vertical impact, but a lateral impact, those rotational forces are four and a half to four point seven fim greater in magnitude, meaning that a 20g is a 100 G impact, a 30 G is way above 100 in rotational forces.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: So when you have these over and over and over again, one of the things that we learned in our recent report that we're going to get into is that uh we found out that one one deployment in SWIC operations is equivalent to about seven times the neurotrauma and impacts that an NFL player has a deceased NFL player who had level four CTE.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: So just one deployment.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: So repetitive uh repetitive head injury is the primary mechanism, but we have a lot of spinal problems or spinal trauma, cervical trauma, and the and the cervical trauma is connected to the brain and it feeds into what happens in the brain.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then all of course all your orthopedic injuries and things like that.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: So guys that do five deployments, ten deployments, 20 years, they take a pretty heavy toll.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I you know, I'm a boat guy, man.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: We've all seen Apocalypse Now, which I think is one of my favorite movies, man.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a I'm uh I'm I'm a big boat guy.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, talk about these boats a little bit.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you talk about going 50, 60 miles an hour, and I just want the audience to understand, I mean, we've seen videos where, you know, you know, crewmen like yourself, I mean, the continuous banging of the of the you know the impacts of the body.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now you're already strapped in this boat.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, your body's not going anywhere.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you receive like 100% of those impacts when that boat hits a wave, right?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, sometimes I would I would stand, sometimes I would be sitting, sometimes I'd be strapped in.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: It was all dependent on how bad the seas were and what we were doing, how fast we were going.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, when you're going that fast, you're taking that type of impact, it's equivalent to taking a car crash 500 times a night.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and let's talk, yeah.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, so what I mean, give give, you know, give the give the folks a little do what do we have that can describe a hundred G hit?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I mean, what is I'm just trying to think of something that 100G hit is is a vehicle crash going 65 miles an hour into a brick wall.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's okay, and so that's like they say that a 25G impact's like taking the same car at 30 miles an hour.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, so you can imagine, I mean, that's with a seat belt on, but still the impact, the 65 miles an hour, go ahead and imagine that, right?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And you're talking about doing that, you know, hundreds of times in an hour.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so, I mean, unfortunately, you know, you know, what we're we we're just coming around to what this has done to our population.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the SWIC community, when did I mean you get, you know, folks who you know, how long has been the how long has the SWIC community been in existence?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, for as long as maybe SEALs, no?
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Vietnam?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, they can they can trace uh back to the old T T boats and that type of thing in World War II.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but formerly when the SEALs came about in Vietnam, uh, they were using river boats to move throughout the region, and they were using boat units or other different types of units back then.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of where they were founded, where we came from.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, those guys were the original sweat guys, and then you move forward into the boat units and the 80s, 70s, and 80s, and then uh the school formalized in the early 90s, 93 time frame around that time.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then it just became SWIC school at that point.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: But all the founding guys were sweat guys, they just didn't have a SWIC school at that point.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what's the so let's talk about 9-11 because uh, you know, I'm I'm a I'm a Cold War guy, right?
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: I retired in early 01 before the world went bananas, you know, 21 years.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: We never had a suicide or a mental health problem in the Green Beret community at that time.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of it was we didn't have all the trauma.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, after, you know, I mean, up until 9-11, you know, we're, you know, I mean, my first unit in the infantry, we trained with sticks for crying out loud until Ronnie Reagan started, you know, giving us money, right?
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, we we you know, I mean, we jumped out of planes, we blew things up, we shot a lot of guns, we did a lot of crazy stuff.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: We loved it.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, something changed after 911 where we started to see this ceaseless, uh, you know, this this ceaseless exposure through training and combat, and training and combat.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what what is your opinion right now on why this is now an issue?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, did did you did did you always have the same mental health issues in the switch?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: We had the physical toll in terms of spine and orthopedic injuries.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: But the the thing about this type of brain trauma is it's repetitive head injury.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: And with this repetitive head injury pathology, it takes two decades or longer for it to transform from just having being dazed and confused and moving into different uh secondary things like anxiety and depression into full full-blown uh pathology with CTE, which I think now we're seeing we're seeing that pathology unfold with a lot of guys in their late 50s, early 60s who have been diagnosed with dementia for Alzheimer's or Parkinson's or different types of pathologies like that.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately what it is is this CTE.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: So back then there was there was no two or three decades of of uh time on fast boats.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, in the 70s and 80s, those boats weren't as fast as what we have now.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: So that's yeah.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Things have changed in in terms of you know speed boats, uh cigarette boats, and the engines and the horsepower that go 50, 60, 70 miles an hour now since the since the early 90s, that's where we're at with that.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And when you're going that speed, you're gonna you're gonna have a lot of damage and a lot of damage.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that makes and that makes sense.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: So when you put it all together with newer, faster boats, then of course, you know, we we can absolutely say after 911, you know, that there's been a significant increase in both training and combat exposure.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you're looking at a generation of of veterans since 911 that, you know, you probably already had, and I would say absolutely, with the amount of impacts you take, you already had problems in the square community before that, but they I think they became exacerbated with the combination of those boats and then yeah.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the element of time is really the thing.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh when you look at the NFL and contact sports, and you see someone that's been a Pee-We all the way up through professional sports, and then it's it's not until they retire to that pathology really takes hold and they're they're in their 50s and 60s when CTE starts to shrink the brain and all of those things start to happen.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it does take about two decades for this type of injury to take its full, run its full course and start really dismantling all the systems in the in the body that the brain uh controls.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I I postulate it takes it starts taking place a lot earlier than that, but people just don't know what's going on until it's obvious, right?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we start struggling.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the unf the unfortunate thing for us is you know, an NFL player gets 30,000 impacts over their career, if they have a 20-year career, based on about 1,500 impacts a year.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: And we we get 10, 20, 30 million impacts.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we're way off the charts.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: There's that's this hasn't been measured yet.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we're talking about we're talking about a paradigm shift now from looking in blast over pressure uh with with what we're doing with our research and to looking at acceleration, deceleration, repetitive energy in the military.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't think there's a job in the military that has the potential to damage the brain as much as yours.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know of anyone.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've done a lot of goofy stuff in my life to include playing all army rugby.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And you're right.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we talk about the NFL, we talk about hockey, we talk about soccer, and we've got a brain bank, including my son, full of damaged brains up there.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I think uh tell us about the case.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think you you can explain this better than any that uh Dr.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Amon came down uh last year to our summit and he's and he had the brain scans with what they saw was the worst case of CTE they've ever seen in anybody, and it was a SWIC combat crewman.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I won't I won't tell his name, but um he was uh special ball team 22 operator.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: He was a senior chief.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: He had uh I think 12 years in the military when he was sidelined uh because of his injuries.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: He committed suicide, he shot himself in his chest, and uh what what happened with him is something that I wanted to bring up that I found in our research.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I'm gonna call it, I'm gonna term it uh toxic trifecta.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, what it is, what he had was he had a psychological burden with PTSD, and then he had uh neurocognitive cognitive breakdown, and then uh the third thing was intractable headaches or intractable pain.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: So he had these three three things that exacerbated his symptomology to the point where he committed suicide.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: He was also hallucinate, you know, hallucinating and he was he was already diagnosed suicidal.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: But what we found before I get back to the that that that report, what we found in our report is that everybody in the survey had all three in that trifecta.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: So our research is showing that this trifecta exists with neurocognitive uh breakdown or degenerative changes with intractable headaches and pain, and then uh ETSD.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: So this puts all of those guys in our recent research at a much higher probability for suicide.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: So you take that across the entire community of retired operators who have this trauma, and all of them are sitting in that trifecta of toxicity, basically.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: So with Tori Norrell, though, he knew something was wrong with him.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is he he was complaining a lot to his neighbors, saying they were putting uh things in his head, listening to what he was saying, what he was thinking.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, he was that far uh delusional because of CTE uh pathology.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: So he did shoot himself in the chest so that they could look at his brain and do the autopsy on his brain.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: I spoke with his mother on multiple occasions.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: I got his uh DD 214, I got the autopsy report, I got the police report, I got all of that data and kind of looked at it and put it in some of the research that I've been doing.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a tragedy, but he was 44 years old.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: He was only 44 years old.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: And he had the worst case of CTE that they found they needed to bring it at USC.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it it's appalling.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Let's talk about the research because that's why we're here.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think last time you had a project going on, but now it's completed, or you've uh you've got another one going on.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: No, we we finally got published.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Myself, Dr.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Joe Maroon, uh his team out of Pittsburgh, uh Neuroscience Department, and uh we published a neurosurgery journal.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: The title of the article is Neurotrauma in Naval Special Warfare Combat Crewmen and Fast Blood Operators.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Essentially, what we did was I built a survey to collect data on individuals that are fast blood operators.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: One, just to verify who you are, verify that you were on fast boats.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: There was a list of questions that I asked pertaining to concussive symptoms and had you experienced those concussion symptoms while you were operating fast boats.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then within that data set that we built in the in the survey, we also put in the entire NSI survey so we could collect all of that data for neural behavior uh symptom inventory.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: We put the uh quality of life after TBI survey in there as well.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: So we collected all that data, uh analyzed everything, and then published the report.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: So right now it's online, it's available, it's it's out in print.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: So people can see it.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: And what what were you finding?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, how many how many uh SWIC uh SWIC uh combatant crew members participated in the study?
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: We surveyed 245 individuals, 198 responded, it was about an 80% uh response rate.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we found the average age of the TOHORT was 51 years old, uh, which is you know, 50 is kind of that point where the body starts degenerating naturally anyway, and cognitive decline and all the other systems in the body.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it was important to get data with guys at that age uh level.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the average number of years of the fast bloat operator was 12, and then the number of deployed months on fast bloats was 90 uh 91 months, or basically seven years.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: What was important in the survey is we found that 45% of the participants had been diagnosed with a TBI.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: But what's even more significant about that is the other 55% that had not been diagnosed with a TBI had a similar high level of symptom burden for TBI on both of the inventories that we did.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Showing that they had they had a high level of TBI burden, but they didn't have a diagnosis for TBI.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: That that shows that there's a gap.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's a gap out there in reporting, which means there's 55% of these guys running around with this heavy symptom burden, and they're not getting the treatment, they're not getting the diagnosis, they're not getting the care that they that they need and that they deserve, basically.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And they all have that trifecta that I mentioned before, where puts them at a h higher rate over suicide.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Talking 100% of the surveyed population that you dealt with had these issues, whether they were diagnosed with a TBI or not.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: They're all they are all impacted by the execution of their job in the NATO.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: They all had high scores on the neurosymptomatory and the quality of life after traumatic brain injury, meaning that they all had existing uh symptomology from a traumatic brain injury.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it and so right now, as we as we go forward with this, what is you know, what what do you hope to get out of this study?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you've put a lot of time into this, Anthony.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a passion.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's something that you'll probably spend the rest of your life on, just like I will on this whole thing.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: We're losing too many, too many good people.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the losses are coming from folks that are uninformed that it, you know, we we can treat this, we can make it better, you know, we're not gonna cure it.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, what do you hope to do with this survey?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because I mean, this is you know, it this is groundbreaking.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: When hundred when 100% of a surveyed population has negative symptomology that is indicative of a high rate of suicide and loss simply because you did your job, you know, serving this country.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what do we do with this?
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Where do we go with this?
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: What we want to do, what I very specifically want to do is more research because now we know there's a high symptom burden and we know that it's 100% across the board.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you did a deployment on these boats, you have TDI, you have repetitive head entering, you have enough to where it's gonna cause problems down the road.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: What we want to look at now is like PTAL 217 tests, look at uh other blood tests, look at biomarkers, uh, look at neurocognitive or neurocyte testing, which is kind of the gold standard for measuring uh neurocognitive processes or disorders in uh amyloid PET scans, TAL PET scans, different types of scans that can pick up pathology in the brain.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's indicative of Alzheimer's CT and those types of things.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: So if we can get those types of concrete uh evidence, you know, not just that hey, they took a survey and they're they have high symptom burdens based on a survey, but what's the actual empirical evidence that backs it up?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then where are they on that timeline?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, just looking at those types of things, I think that's important.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: The uh, you know, I mean, as we you know look at this, I mean, how many of those operators?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: That you talked to had got ever gotten any disability at all for this condition, especially since it's not something that's assessed in any real VA, you know, you know, as part of the VA.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you have a TBI, that means you got hit, you got blown up, you had an incident.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: But repetitive impacts as a part of a job is something that really that not many, you know, not many people are getting evaluated for, nor getting the proper disability for, let alone the treatment.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, how many of these, how many of these operators are actually evaluated and diagnosed with some kind of disability as a result of these millions of hits that they take in their job?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I can say with high confidence that anyone from 2020 going forward in that time frame, probably close to 100% of these guys when they're getting out now, all have TBI diagnosis.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: But the what the what the big problem is is we're looking at two decades of a gap because the guys in the 80s and 90s, all the way up to probably 2020.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: NACO started in 2010.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: From 2010 to 2015, the whole paradigm was about blast overpressure.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: No one was looking at guys like us.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we really started trickling in there at high high volume until over after 2020.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you're looking at two decades of guys that really didn't go to a clinic and get evaluated and get seen and get get taken care of for this particular injury.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a huge gap there.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: There is a huge gap.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not only a gap in identification and diagnosis, there's also a gap in treatment.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, a lot of these polytrauma clinics and NYCOs, they're, you know, they they do good work, don't get me wrong.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, but there's a lot of treatments that we know can positively impact the brain that just aren't available uh to these soldiers.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: So when when a SWIC crewman does get diagnosed, what are their options right now?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: What what are what are being offered to these these guys uh you know for treatment?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: That what what's helping them?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we're always looking for what's out there right now that's helping um you know these individuals cope and and get better.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's there's a number of things that I would like to see personally available for every operator, not just SLIC operators.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: But when you look at HVOT, hyperbaric oxygen therapy and transcranial magnetic stimulation, those things combined.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Ketamine, SGB combined, those things help tremendously with PTSD type symptoms, uh, depression and that type of stuff.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: What else?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: How do you feel about the psychedelics that are out there?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you mentioned ketamine, which with SGB, I've been through it myself.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think all of those things need to be available.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think they need to be legalized.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think there should be polytraumas, not polytrauma maybe, but clinics all around the country that bring all of these uh protocols together and treat veterans.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like for me, for example, I've been fortunate because over the last five years of research, being online, talking to doctors around the world, doctors literally around the world, I've had a lot of doctors that are in this space that deal with TBI and all of these other issues.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I talk to them on phone a lot of times.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: We text, we phone call, we do different things like that.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: And they're always telling me, hey, try this, hey, try that.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a number of things in in my protocol that I built over the last few years with the help of the doc these doctors that work on neuroinflammation, work on brain function, work on sleep, work on all of these different things that are important.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're taking all of these things, they're not going to fix CTE and Alzheimer's and those types of pathologies, but they are gonna improve all those different little secondary things that you have and improve your quality of life, improve your mood, improve your memory, a cognitive function.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: So there is there are protocols out there if you piece them all together that help in all of those things.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is you're you gotta have high quality, it has to be third-party tested, it can't be junk.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, omega-3s, for example, I take uh foreign brand.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not plugging for anyone or anything like that, but I take their super EPA and I take about 3,000 milligrams a day, and that crosses the blood brain barrier.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's great for neuroinformation, and I've been on it for a couple years, thanks to some of these doctors that told me about it.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: Same thing with SPMs, uh specialized uh perresolved mediators.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: They cross the blood brain barrier.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: They go in and actually clean out the waste and that kind of thing in the brain, and uh help with help with that.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been on that for a couple years as well.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: SP SPMs, go into that a little bit.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: I've never heard of that before, man.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: I might stuff.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: SPMs is the top brand on the market is uh Metagenics.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's the brand that I take.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's third-party tested.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: I get them full scripts and I order it there and I use the SOCOM dietitians access, and she gives me a 35% discount.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: So any of us, any of any of us guys that are military guys, and especially under anyone under the SOCOM umbrella, I can I can give you that access.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, she said I could, and uh you get a 35% discount.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: But SPM does uh specialized provisol mediators, it's it's just like fish oil, omega-3 type stuff.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: It enters into the uh brain, passing through the blood brain barrier, and essentially it helps with neuroinflammation and it helps with weight clearance while you're sleeping.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: So there are there's multiple brands on the market that like I said, you want to get the best purest quality and just something that it's been tested and you know it works.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: Any peptides out there that help?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everybody's taking those things nowadays, man.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's uh I took S'moralin for a while.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's probably some stuff, but I don't really want to inject myself with anything at the moment.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not on any, I'm not on any peptides.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I just always looking for, but the SPM thing's very interesting.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't heard about that before, man.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, wound healing, anything like that.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um Jeff Dartia and those guys, and Brian uh Stepanenko, Dr.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Stepanenko, he's he's the one that turned me over that.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: He works pretty closely with uh Jeff Dartia, those guys.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: Deal with Task Force Degger quite a bit, man.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Good organization.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's uh but you know, here you are.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the reason that you're able to treat yourself is you're aware, right?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how I mean, even in small communities like SF, SEALs, SWIC, you know, SWIC crewman, you know, we we don't really hang around with each other a lot when we get out, right?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of guys disappear, get out.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: How do we how do we let them know?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: How do we reach out to them and you know, find those guys that are struggling or and let them know, hey, you know, talk to Anthony, man.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's help out there, there's things we can do.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's half the problem right now is finding these guys when they leave the service, especially guys that might have served in the 80s and 90s, right?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: And have no idea about this stuff.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like, you know, and and of course the VA with his awesome record keeping program.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we we have no idea where these folks are, man.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: How do we find them?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: How do how are you finding the boys right now?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, what I did specifically is I built uh two uh fastboat TBI groups on Facebook.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: One was specifically, the one I started first was uh SWIC TBI group.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so everything that I do in research and all the clinics places and guys, any types of protocols or anything that I think is important, feed all that information to those guys.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's about seven or eight hundred guys in that group.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then I've started another I've started another one that's uh I got Coast Guard, River Ring, Marine Corps, uh Australians.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's anyone that's a fastbutt operator is in that group.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: I I have doctors in those groups, people that help us and that type of thing.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: What I don't allow is people to get on there with any type of sales stuff, trying to sell their products.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it's all about information.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about trying to get people's money or any of that type of stuff.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's just about my primary focus with that was to tell people about tell different operators about Avalon Action Alliance clinics, like Tulane, uh, Marcus Institute, UNC Thrive, and first, first and foremost to get them to those clinics so they could get the proper diagnosis, which is an ongoing battle.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then some of the other things was the brain bank trying to get guys to donate their brains because we keep having guys every freaking year pass away for whatever reason, and and they're they're not getting we're not getting brains at the at the brain bank.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: But anything else that's important, like a protocol, like omega-3s or any of those types of things, I post that on there.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: I post research uh that's active and ongoing.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the Hot clinics and other things that I'm involved with, uh I try to get guys of those clinics as well so they can get treatment.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's uh it's a lot of different things that I'm trying to do in those in those groups.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're a busy man, and I thank you for all those efforts.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: And and then I guess, you know, from what I know, most of these treatments, because they're not FDA approved or VA approved, they're all out of pocket, right?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, guys are you know having to go to foundations or mortgage their homes, whatever they do, they gotta come up with cash to get this stuff because you know there's just you know no treatments.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that we absolutely need to work together on uh to try and get this covered under a PACT Act or something like that.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, is that your experience as well that you know guys are you know, they they've got to pay for this stuff somehow.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: It took me three or four years to track down eight spots to where I could actually get to it and get my own treatment, but I figured out I you know, I cracked the code on it eventually.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I found the clinic in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania called Aurelius of Harrisburg.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: And those guys are we're bringing in soft guys to them and they're paying, they're funding the treatment.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: The treatment is free, they're funding the housing, the housing is free.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: So basically, someone like me, all I had to do was get myself there and pay for my own food, which is pretty easy for me.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I just chose to drive up there.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: I spent three weeks at the Atlantic, got HPOT, got TMS, physical training as well, and uh kind of like helping solidify the changes in the brain through physical activity.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a very good treatment.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: I got 60 hours of it.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we had guys that went there and got over a hundred hours of HPOT.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: We had guys there with diagnosed Alzheimer's from repetitive head injury who went there barely able to walk and barely able to talk and left there having full sentences and full dexterity, functioning probably uh 80% better than what they were when they got there.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Pretty amazing.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and Anthony's the point.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, nobody dies from HBO unless you light a cigarette, right?
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then yeah, you know, and and and so, but yet we can't get it covered, nobody would admit it'd help, and yet thousands of veterans and thousands of athletes have gone through the same protocol and have gone in and have all had significant improvement across their symptomology and the you know, and and when nothing else has worked.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: The drugs haven't worked, the therapy hasn't worked, I got a pony for Christmas, that didn't work, but man, you shove me in a tube full of you know 100% pure O2, and I've come out feeling better than I ever have had in a lot in my life.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm telling you, we gotta write these checks.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: We have got to find these guys, man, because if we don't find them, you know, your buddy, you know, and I've got friends, you know, that are that are not longer here, and we didn't know that being a master breacher and doing all those, you know, you know, it's the it's it's it's it's the brain.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: We gotta we gotta fix this, man.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: And you're doing an amazing, amazing job.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: So as we close out, you know, talk to us about how people find you, you know, and and you know, obviously, you know, you know, where where your niche is, you know, special boat operators and and uh across the spectrum.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I forgot about the the river, the riverine guys in the Marine Corps, and and I love Australia.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: And talk to folks about, you know, what do you have going on?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: So this is this is where I like to give people time to brag about themselves and and talk about the good things you're doing and how people can find you and get you know, talk about the research where they find it the whole nine yards, sir.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, there's a few things you can do to find me.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um I have a YouTube channel, Anthony Smith.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: If you just type in Swick TV I, you're gonna find a lot of things that I do, a lot of videos, that that type of thing.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: My my main thing that I'm on most of the time is LinkedIn.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I communicate with a lot of professionals in different uh areas in terms of research and you know, people that are healthcare and doctors.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I've talked to a lot of individuals on that.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: I post just about everything that I do on that medium, as well as the the YouTube thing.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the easiest way to get a hold of me and I I'm gonna I'm gonna respond to you on that.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: So in terms of what's going on in the future, I think it's it's just the next level of research, hoping to get the blood biome, uh the blood markers, their neuropsych testing, and uh imagery that all correlates this type of injury so that we can so we can understand the progression of it, you know, after a couple decades of trauma.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, honestly, we'd love to see if uh maybe you want to present your research at our summit on repetitive brain trauma in September this year.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: So uh maybe I can get a hold of you and you can submit uh you know the the the research and findings and we'll see where we are on the agenda because this is a this is a critical issue.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Aynman brought this up last year, and uh, you know, it was just something that, you know, for an entire just say section or an entire MOS, right, to be su to have 100% of their people suffering from, you know, you know, severe emotional distress, neurological distress, physiological distress, to the point of where we have a you know an issue not only just with mental health and the quality of life that we all deserve after serving in the Army and the Navy and wherever, but you know, we don't need to be suffering with severe mental health and and suicidal ideation.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: So the work that you're doing is is very compelling, and um I thank you so much for it.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and I bless you and thank the Lord that there's folks out like that out there like you that are doing your best to take care of our brothers and sisters.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it, Bruce.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: I would definitely drop down to Tampa and hang out for a few days, and and I got friends down there as well.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that's not our problem.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: I can take a couple days off just leave you know, man.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I'll probably have to take some I'll probably have to take some volume to stand in front of people.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I'll man.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: No, don't worry about it.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we'll take care of you.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry about it, man.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Love to have you down here and talk about this issue because you know it is it is significant, and and it's just another, you know, another reason why we've got to get more legislation, we've got to get more attention to this.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're treating veteran suicide like now we're treating school shootings, like, ah, it's unfortunate.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, man.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we're we're numb to it, we're not paying attention to it, we're not doing anything about it, and it just sucks, dude.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to change this.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, let's let's get together, bro.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm coming back into this pretty hard.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: I had to take a knee with business for a while.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, yeah, let's let's get you invited to the summit.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Look forward to seeing you there.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: And uh you just keep doing what you're doing.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: If there's anything we can do from the foundation to help, you please let us know.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, sir.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: All right, buddy.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, thank you so much.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: Have a great day, man.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, man, no biggie, man.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, folks, another great episode of Broken Brains.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the kind of problems that we're trying to outline so that you'll understand that, you know, it this crosses everything.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we have been dealing with this way too long and not even knowing about it.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: And now that we know about it, we're not moving fast enough.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we're talking about research.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: We need to talk about not just research, but action and treatment and identification and and all these other aspects of finding our veterans that are hurting and getting them to understand that it's okay to admit that you got a problem.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: All right, you've got to reach out.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we and you we are vulnerable, that there's no stigma for suffering from mental illness, especially when you've taken millions of hits to the brain.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: You're supposed to be mentally ill.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: We all got problems.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's my wife.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm crazy, right?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: But this is part of life.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to help each other and we hold it inside and we just stay in our dark rooms and we just suffer because we don't want people to know we're not only hurting ourselves, but we're hurting people around us, and there is hope.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Anthony's done an amazing job fixing himself after all those years of service and millions of hits.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: I managed to recover my mental health back after, you know, suffering my own breakdown, you know, four and a half years ago.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, everybody we know is here.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's hope, there's light, and we have to help you find it.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: So if you know somebody that's suffering, man, please reach out to us, man.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're here to talk.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we'll all get on the phone with you.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so just please, you know, reach out.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: But another great show, and Anthony's thank you so much as uh, you know, as we go as we close out here.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget, folks, you know, we I wrote this book because my son's dead.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: All right, please get it.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just updated it.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit longer now, but it's got a lot more information in it, and it's much better written thanks to AI.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: That makes your writing as a soldier look really, really good, right?
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, anyway, it's got a lot more information on it.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: Please jump on that book.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's in Spanish now.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: If, you know, if you've served in Seventh Special Forces Group, and we're gonna have an audio book uh pretty soon.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: So really get out there and get it.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget our summit September 16th and 17th this year.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: We have an amazing golf tournament on the 18th.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: We're looking for sponsors, please.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: You can sponsor hold, you can sponsor different aspects of the golf tournament, you can bring a team.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: And guess what?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to just play golf because it's a fun golf tournament.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna shoot golf balls out of an M4, you're gonna swing a golf club on a park three with body armor, you're gonna push a humbeat for time, you're gonna carry people in a medical litter, you've got all these other trophies that you can win.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't have to be just a good golfer.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: You can just be you could you could win other events.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: But we're gonna have a lot of fun, 100% of the end of the money raised.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: We're working with Task Force Dagger on this, goes to Veterans Mental Health.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to thank you for listening to Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman, the official podcast of the Mac Parkman Foundation.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed this episode, please follow us on Instagram at Broken Brains Podcast, which is at broken underscore brains underscore podcast, or subscribe on YouTube at Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the more people that subscribe, the more attention we get, the more the algorithm loves us, and we are one of the fastest growing podcasts on brain health on the internet at this time.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a moment, please leave us a review on Apple, Spotify, Podcasts, wherever you listen.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: We really appreciate that.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: It helps us reach more people.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: And again, thank you so much for your support.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: If you have children, please take care.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know a vet, keep an eye on them and help us reach them and treat them.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: And with a little bit of attention to this matter, we can solve this and make it safe with them in the future.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you next time on Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: God bless you all.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: Take care.