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ADHDtime on Air with Dr. Shawn Horn · ADHDtime On Air

• Daniella Karidi, PhD: Hi, welcome to ADHD Time On Air. And today we're going to talk about a topic that is really interesting to me and that I read the book like kind of like in one sitting. I was like so excited about this book and it's by an author that I love spending time with. So I want to share with you some insights about some social struggles and what is social executive functioning. and learn a little bit more about cognitive load and memory and how stress can affect our neural system and how that all relates to ADHD. And we're gonna do it by talking with the author of Frived Socially with ADHD. And hopefully we'll explore some of these really interesting topics ⁓ like hyper-focus and working memory and... emotional regulation. But before I get carried away because I really enjoyed reading this book, I will let Dr. Sean introduce herself and tell us about the book. Dr. Shawn Horn: Thank you so much. So I'm Dr. Sean Horn, a licensed clinical psychologist in Spokane, Washington. I have a private practice which I'm recording from right now where I see clients all week working on ADHD, working on nervous system regulation, emotion regulation. I have been ⁓ a DBT therapist for, since the mid 90s and ⁓ do all sorts of things. So on top of that, my extracurricular activity is I am a speaker. I've done a TEDx on the neuroscience of shame. I ⁓ have written this book, Thrive Socially with Adult ADHD that came out this December. And I am a podcaster. I have a podcast, the Inspired Living Podcast. I'm on YouTube and on social media, sharing what I'm learning and what I know about. all things shame free and ADHD and living an inspired life. So that is me. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yay. Thank you so much for joining me. And for those that are visual learners like me, I'm going to show you the book. This is how it looks. And it sits with my white books, because you guys might know, but I color code my books. ⁓ But this is the book, and it has some words that are a lot. So ⁓ I would love if you could explain to me first, let's start with the first thing. ⁓ Friving socially. What does that mean? Dr. Shawn Horn: Thanks a lot. I know it's so confusing. Yeah. You know, originally when I, when I wrote this book, I wanted to title it, you talk too much and other BS people say to you, right? And the publisher was like all about SEO and we just went round and round and round about ⁓ this title. So it was quite a struggle titling this. ⁓ Daniella Karidi, PhD: No, I think I got it at the end, like, what does it mean? Like summarize it for me. Dr. Shawn Horn: This book is focused on your emotion regulation in a social context. So thriving socially is about being effective in a social context, having success that you want to have, building the connections you want to build, and feeling confident, feeling connected, and having the skills you need to be successful in social context. thrive is like you have survive and you have thrive. So when we're done surviving, then we can focus on thriving. So we're kind of helping people transition from surviving in all of our relational and social contexts to actually being able to grow and to build the kind of life you want to in a social context. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Ooh, I love that. Love that. ⁓ Then you go to talk about adult ADHD. So I'm going to say before we continue, can you make a virgin for like working with kids for like the children and teens? Like, please make part two. Dr. Shawn Horn: Oh, thank you. Yeah, you know, William Dodson was one of my endorsers and he said, Sean, you have to make this for everybody because this is not just adult ADHD. This is a human thing and you need to make this book for everybody. And really, I feel that so much when I do this, but had a really funny experience. I have all these awakenings when you start writing and researching and things. And I was so focused on the ADHD experience and our challenges and social relational context that as I was learning these things, all of a sudden I start noticing it in everyone around me. And I was like, wait a second, we are not the only ones that struggle with this. I mean, this is really a human struggle because Daniella Karidi, PhD: ⁓ Dr. Shawn Horn: people that I was running into that do not meet the diagnostic criteria for ADHD or autism were struggling more than a lot of the autistic folks I know or ADHD folks I know. So it really did bring my awareness to a hidden stereotype that I myself, even with living with ADHD, I have ADHD and everyone in my family pretty much. I say we're unicorns in a donkey world. So I come from the breed of unicorns. And, you know, I just didn't have that awareness ⁓ as much as I did when I was writing this book. Daniella Karidi, PhD: So then it goes to talk about shame busting strategies. So tell me a bit about that part. Tell me a bit about. Dr. Shawn Horn: So, yeah. So I am the self-proclaimed shame-busting psychologist. In the mid-90s, I took a course in my doctoral program on shame psychology, and my professor said, shame, toxic shame, is at the core of all of our emotional and behavioral struggles. And when I realized how central it was, how critical it was to all of our struggles, I thought, this has to be the very thing that gets addressed. And so from that moment on, I have been educating and teaching about shame, toxic shame, the different types of shame, and helping people to remove toxic shame from their life, because it's such a barrier to our growth, to the learning and growing process that we need to bust it. We need to get rid of that barrier and adopt a shame-free approach. So I started this book with a shame-free chapter on a shame-free mindset. to help people position their minds as they're reading through the book. Because I find so often when I teach people ⁓ skills and strategies and give them insights about what's happening, instead of them having this ⁓ like, ⁓ this is so wonderful. I feel so much hope. I feel so inspired. Thank you for freeing me with this information. They go to the Shane narrative of, my gosh, I did this to my kids. I did this to my spouse. I I ruined things. ⁓ They just see it as more to fuel their inner critic, ⁓ that stuff. And so I want them to take the information and let it inform them so they can move forward instead of seeing it as something to be hard on themselves with. So with shame-free mindset, we understand that being human is hard. We understand that we're not perfect, that we're not gonna get perfect. We're gonna make mistakes. When we reflect on the past, we do it with kind site where you let the journey and the lessons and the stories of the past inform your present and your choices in the future instead of letting it be this critical review where you just get stuck in that. So this is a shame-busting approach with everything focused on a shame-free message that is a strength. approach to our ADHD rather than a negative approach to it. Daniella Karidi, PhD: love it. I really liked the fact that there's different types of shame. ⁓ I did appreciate that insight that how it's like, ⁓ there's a reason like all our emotions have a reason, have a purpose and that that that this shame emotion has has a survival purpose. ⁓ And when I read and when I read this episode, it reminded me of ⁓ an incident that happened to me when I was when I had a bunch of guests in my house. Dr. Shawn Horn: Yes. ⁓ Yes. Daniella Karidi, PhD: and I was like really struggling with a bunch of things and I walked around my kitchen and I kept on saying, I'm doing my fucking best, I'm doing my, excuse my French everyone, I'm doing, and this five year old that was like walking there, she was like a daughter of a friend, she turns around to me and she's like, yes you are, yes you are, and walked away and I'm like, I want that five year old to walk around on my shoulder and like remind me. Dr. Shawn Horn: Aww, they're so cute! Yes. Daniella Karidi, PhD: This kind of like, so when I read about the changing the mindset and like both on the shame part and the emotional part and the whole, I was like, I need that five year old on my shoulder again and again, reminding me that yes, I am doing my best. Dr. Shawn Horn: Yes. That's right. Most people are thinking that shame is generated from our thoughts. And when I learned that this shame, healthy shame, is measured as early as 15 months of age, that was mind blowing to me. Where guilt is measured at the age of five or six. So this shame is part of our primary emotions, is hardwired into our nervous system, and that's why I call it shame reflex. because it happens before we think. But then our thinking brain is our meaning maker. And so it likes to create a story to try to make sense of why we have this reaction. But it's so important for folks to know that shame is a nervous system response. It is not what you think, because many people who experience shame will have shame about shame because they think it's their thinking and that is reflective of something that's wrong with them. But all of us, no matter your age, no matter where you come from, no matter your journey story, anything, it is hardwired into us to inform us. Like you were saying, all emotions have a very important purpose and they're messengers to give us information on something to attend to. So shame has a very important job. Daniella Karidi, PhD: And then I'm going to let people read the rest. no, but I want to talk about the next words about building a better relationship. Because so many of my clients that I meet ⁓ are older adults or late diagnosis. They believe that there's no fixing some of their relationship habits. And I would love to you to tell me the kind of like, what do I say to them? Like the changes can be made. Relationships can be rebuilt or built new ones. even though you are whatever age and so how what do I say to that? Dr. Shawn Horn: You know, always say as long as you hold on to the story, you get to keep the story, right? And so the mistake we make is interpreting the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that are the frequent flyers in our brain as our nature. So from neuroplasticity, what we have learned is that we can mold our brain and our brain learns. It learns. What is a priority and what's not a priority? Whatever thoughts, feelings or behaviors you frequently engage in, it is communicating to the brain, this is a high priority. And the pathways of connection in the brain will be improved based on what the priority is. Some of the pathways are like hiking trails that need to be groomed, stuff is growing over, it's hard to travel on it. Some of them are well groomed, some sidewalks, some roads. Some are bullet trains, some are high speed jets, right? And so when you're doing something frequently and you made it a priority, the brain will make that pathway so rapid to communicate so rapidly that we will do it as if it's second nature. This is what we see with athletes who practice, practice, practice. And then they have these reflexes that are unbelievable. because the brain has prioritized that movement. And so when someone says, I am an angry person, no, they're not an angry person. They have just rehearsed and practiced that anger so much that the brain has prioritized it. And that is a very developed pathway. But we can change that. But to change it, we have to practice the other way. And it's going to be a nerving. It's almost like imagine someone being right-handed and now they have to use their left hand. It's going to be hard and you're going to keep at it, keep at it, keep at it. But the more you practice, the brain will develop the ability to write with your left hand. This is what we see with people have brain trauma and certain areas are ⁓ damaged, sometimes removed. And, you know, They have to use other parts of their brains that is not designed to do what that part did, but they were able to develop that. It's just uncomfortable. But the good news is when we do things that are uncomfortable and hard, we're growing that pathway. We got our little workers in there hacking the bushes and putting down the cement and building away. But if it's easy, it's already established. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Mm. Dr. Shawn Horn: And when you look at people who study growth mindset, they say, we have got it all wrong in schools. We're celebrating people that, it's so easy. I got an A. I didn't even have to try. If you didn't have to try, you have already established that there's no growth that happened there in the brain. But the kid who is working hard and trying hard and at it all the time, they are growing their brain. And the research shows that the kids who don't have the natural ability, but who have the grit, that determination, and really work at it, those kids outperform the children who have natural abilities. And that just really speaks to the value of stretching ourselves into the uncomfortable area. I always say that success comes from moving out of your comfort zone. And we, as a, A society we're so uncomfortable with being uncomfortable. Like it's bad, it's not natural, it's not who I am. And it's like, no, we can shape that. You can change your patterns in relationships. It's going to take effort, it's going to take practice, small steps, but it is very possible. But as long as you tell yourself it's not possible, then it won't happen. And that actually is easier. It's easier to say, it's just bad. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Right? Yeah. Dr. Shawn Horn: You know, think of the teacher in the classroom that does go, ⁓ he's just a bad kid. It's far easier to say that than to challenge yourself to learn how can I reach this child? What resources do I need to connect with and what help do I need to grow to do this? So the harder path is the rich and rewarding path, but the easy path is easy, but you say stuff. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah, true. I love it. ⁓ I remember my son had, don't know which teacher it was, but it was one of his early math teachers that used to use the, used to get really frustrated when a kid would say, I don't know that. And he'd be, no, you don't know it yet. You don't know it yet. ⁓ And we brought that home a lot. And we use that also with the memory on the other side of it, when my husband says, but I told you that. And I said, well, Dr. Shawn Horn: That's right. That's right. Daniella Karidi, PhD: It's new knowledge for me now. You might have told me, but I didn't listen or didn't remember or didn't hear. So it's new knowledge for me now, instead of like fighting with him. Yes, he told me you didn't tell me. We use that phrase. ⁓ But ⁓ I want to go to the next kind of phrase. OK, so explain to me the neuroscience. Some people don't even know what that word means and explain to me about the theory behind all this amazing information. Dr. Shawn Horn: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Polyvagal theory is a model of the nervous system. So that is neuroscience. It's the study of our neurology, our ⁓ nerves and how it's all wired and how our brains work. so ⁓ I use polyvagal theory because it is the latest understanding about how our nervous system functions and especially how it functions in the context of people. So Stephen Porges, who developed this theory, discovered that our ability for a nervous system to be regulated, and what that means, if you have a regulated nervous system, is that you're able to flow through all of your nervous system states, from calm to fight and flight, to maybe shut down, back to fight and flight, back to calm. So you go regulated, dysregulated, regulated. And you can do that flow smoothly. appropriately, you're appropriately reading the cues and signaling to the body. But if it's dysregulated, it's clumsy. I say like when you regulate, it's like sledding on a snowy hill. But when you're dysregulated, you want to go sledding, but it's in summertime and there's all these rocks and boulders or the there's just little patches of snow. So you go but you stop and you have to get up and you have to walk a little bit, get back down. So it's a rougher journey. And so people have a dysregulated nervous system. They can get activated very quickly and they can remain stuck in some of these states where they're stuck in a fight and flight. That's where they live all the time, where they get in this burnout state, the freeze where they're just remain there and it's hard for them to return to regulation. And so as he's looking at the dysregulated regulated nervous systems, he found that It is through the context of safe relationships that helps our nervous system to get myelinated, which means like, think of wires getting insulated. So our nervous system, when we're born, we're kind of going from this dial-up internet system to this high optic internet system, right? So the dial-up is not as myelinated, the wires are not as working as well, but through time we develop. these ⁓ great wire systems so that it's, we're functioning like optic internet, right? And so in a safe relationship, in the context of that, our nervous system is growing and developing. But if we do not have a safe relationship, if it was disrupted, if we had trauma, if we had ⁓ problems creating safety in the context of relationships and people, our nervous system does not get developed as effectively. And then we struggle with nervous system regulation. So we struggle with flowing through those states. We might be quick to getting upset. We might heat up like a microwave and cool down like a conventional oven. And ⁓ we might have more sensitivities too, like sensitivities to sound, to lights, to touch, to taste, textures. Daniella Karidi, PhD: those tags on the clothes. ⁓ God, those tags on our clothes. ⁓ Dr. Shawn Horn: I know, it's awful. So we develop these kind of ⁓ little nuances. And also we might read danger where danger is not. We might be confused about what we see and what we hear. sounds are louder, faces are scarier. And so it kind of is hard for the nervous system to navigate through the world. And this model of Polyvagal theory shows us how we can become regulated and how we can heal, help our nervous system to heal. And even as an adult, if you're dysregulated in your nervous system, there are steps we can take to begin to help our nervous system become regulated. We might always be a little spicy, but we don't have to be so spicy we're burning, right? And so there's specific things we can do to hack and manipulate the nervous system to help it to come to calm and help it navigate through some of the distortions it may have and also improve its performance so over time we can develop nervous system resiliency. Most of the time when people say emotion regulation, what we're really saying is nervous system regulation. Because all of those emotions are specific to certain nervous system states. If you have anxious emotions, you're worried, you're concerned, you have anxiety, panic disorder. That is emotions that exist in the fight and flight state. If you're angry, irritable, know, ⁓ rage, that's fight and flight state. If you feel hopeless, helpless, depressed, ⁓ maybe in the shame, that's in the, what I call the red light, the dorsal vagal shutdown state. When you're feeling joyful, happy, grounded, peaceful, curious, that is what I call the green light, your ventral vagal state. So we're really missing the big picture when we make it about emotion regulation, because it's not emotion regulation, it's nervous system regulation. Just like when people talk about emotional eating, it's not emotional eating. It is self-medicating to regulate the nervous system. So when you understand how your nervous system works, it helps us to take that shame bound personal story of what is wrong with me and transform it into a shame free nervous system story of what is happening within me. And then if you can identify that, then you can also, and also identify the tools that each state needs, then you can begin to know how to navigate. that nervous system more effectively instead of feeling like it just took over and hacked your life. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I love a lot of what you said, like, and a lot of the points in the book. And one of the things that stuck to me was the concept that a lot of ADHDers don't know how to be in a green light. Like, we don't know how to be in the goods place, in the comp place. We're like, we need to be in the yellow or the red or like spicy mode to be activated. And, and, and Dr. Shawn Horn: Yeah. Yes. Daniella Karidi, PhD: It reminded me that I sat once for lunch with a bunch of first borners, people that were born first in their family. And we were talking about the fact that we grew up in a generation also where you did your homework and your chores and then you could play. And as an adult, we were like, there's always chores and we're always responsible. So we don't know how to relax and play. just don't like, we don't like, so it reminded me that conversation a lot about how we don't know Dr. Shawn Horn: Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: how to cope with the calm in the relaxed mode. Dr. Shawn Horn: That is right. And that's when I, one of the motivations of writing this book is when I was reading the Polyvagal theory, the chart, which I, if you look at a chart, you'll see green, yellow, red zones that, and it describes each nervous system state. And I'm looking at it and I'm thinking, that's not how I am in those states. You know, like when I'm in the yellow zone, I'm not feeling necessarily freaked out. I'm feeling on fire. My mind is powering all, all these thoughts are popping out. I've got a lot of energy, I'm getting things done. When I'm in the red zone where most people are laying on the couch, they can't function, get up, they're so depressed, I wanna die, depressed, you know, kind of state, we have functional freeze. We have learned how to push through all of our body natural ways that we mask, we know how to buckle down and we know how to press on. And so we're the emergency workers, we're the... the ambulance, the police officer, the firefighters that's able to attend to the situation. And with this calm that's weird, you know, it's like the peace that surpasses all understanding. And yet we have high pain tolerance and low heart rate and low blood pressure, which it doesn't mean that you're like this amazing human being. It means your body thinks it's dying, which I later learned and I didn't know. And I'm like, ⁓ my gosh. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. Dr. Shawn Horn: And so, and then when we go to green where people are really peaceful, you think this is welcoming. But for us, when we get there, we think, my gosh, I'm getting dementia. Like we freak out. ⁓ forget everything. We can't get the energy back up to get going. ⁓ why I use example of like a car that needs a jumpstart. And then you don't dare stop that car because you're not going be able to start it again. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Right. Dr. Shawn Horn: So we kind of catch that energy and we're just so freaked out about letting it go because we don't know when it's going to come back again. And that has everything to do with our baseline of our dopamine already being too low. So when you're able to get that balanced and also your brain has learned that the way I succeed is to be stressed all the time, to push myself to always remember, I have to do this, I have to do this, I have to do this, you And so when we stop using the now maladaptive ineffective strategies and we start using more effective strategies, like instead of repeating that thing you need to get to the store over and over in your head, we wrote it down. There is this feeling of like, no, ⁓ no, because it knows what it used to know. ⁓ ⁓ found a funny little cartoon that I show when I talk that says, ⁓ when you become when you're so used to being anxious that you get anxious when you don't feel anxious. And that's kind of like us, like we're so used to being ⁓ running like all burning the candle at all ends and feeling this whirlwind of activity that when we're not, because we're using these new methods, these new ways, it's disorienting and we're not quite sure how to position our mind. And so it's uncomfortable. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, ⁓ yeah. There's a book and a bunch of people that did this 12 hour walking thing ⁓ where you don't take technology and you don't have a plan and you walk for 12 hours. And my ADHD was like, that is too much green. Like I can't, like just the idea of like 12 hours of like no distraction, no phone. No talking to people. No like, like that is a too much dose. That was my first reaction. And then when I read the book, I was like, wait, is that a healthy response? Maybe I should like look, like think about how it finds ways to be more comfortable in my green light. And, and I've been leaving my phone in my back pocket when I've been walking the dog now. I'm not, not 12 hours, like let's not push it, but making it a little more, ⁓ Dr. Shawn Horn: Yeah. Yes. Daniella Karidi, PhD: daily habits, as you said also, like don't try to overdo it at once, like build up. ⁓ So I, I read the book and that day I also heard about that 12 hour, was the same day and I'm like, okay, that's a sign that I need to change something. Yes, I got that message. ⁓ Another message that I really appreciated is the chapter about memory because I am a memory researcher and memory is my thing. Dr. Shawn Horn: Yeah, build up. ⁓ You got the message. Yeah. Yes. Daniella Karidi, PhD: And I really liked a term you used that's called memory blinks, which I end. I'd love if you share with the audience like what that is. And if you kind of remember, if you need, I can remind you. ⁓ Dr. Shawn Horn: Yeah, I know. was like, when you said you were going ask me about a chapter, I said, ⁓ my gosh, I got to remember what I wrote about memory. Yes, isn't that blink? That information was just so wild. Yeah, it's like our brain blinks. And just like in real life, when you blink, you may not see something because you're blinking, right? Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Shawn Horn: So as you're coding information, your brain has these blinks where it can miss information while you're coding information, right? And then we won't remember that. And people will say, I said this, I did this. And you're like, no, I don't remember that. And you remember all these other details, but it's like these micro moments that we could be missing. ⁓ And that also can play a role. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Yes. Dr. Shawn Horn: in our ability to recall things correctly or with all the details. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Right. So I heard about the memory blinks before, but I just never heard it in the social contents, which I really appreciated. The social aspect of how it affects you. When I learned about it, the professor that talked said to me, he said, like, I don't know if you know when you sneeze, you automatically blink. You can't control that. Like... Dr. Shawn Horn: I've tried. Just try. Eyes up. Like I'm going to do it. I can't do it. Okay. Daniella Karidi, PhD: You can't. So our brain does the same thing in other times, right? But the insight that it has a social negative effect is what I found really interesting, that taking it to the conversations, taking it to the negative, how it might negatively affect our life. ⁓ Dr. Shawn Horn: Mm-hmm. Yes. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I usually before we finish like to ask people two important questions and I purposely didn't tell you in advance so you didn't have time to think about it. ⁓ One is ⁓ what you have told to young self now that you have all this knowledge about ADHD and about this topic and shame. What would you have gone back and told to your young self? Dr. Shawn Horn: ⁓ goodness, okay. Hmm. think that every, know, children's brains are growing so much. So every age is such a different ⁓ ability for them. So like as a ⁓ younger person, a real little person, I would just love the heck out of her and delight on her and tell her how delightful she is and that how people treat her is about them, not about her. And as she gets a little bit more brain growth and her frontal lobe starts growing, I will tell her. that at school there's reasons why things are hard and it's not because your brain doesn't have what it needs to have, it's that your brain works differently and we need a different approach. And with the right approach, she'll be able to use her brain in the way that she can. And I would let her know that because she was told, I was told, that I was dumb, know, people told me that. Yeah, I don't, you didn't hear this story, but ⁓ I was mislabeled in first grade because I drew on my aptitude test, dot to dot pictures. They concluded that I was severely, they used the MR word and said that I had major brain problems and would not be able to succeed in school. And they put me in special ed. And I did not get out of that until I had an opportunity to play volleyball at a community college. And I failed all the entrance exams and they had a program there that helped students to succeed and they didn't know it, but they gave me executive functioning tools. And from then the world is my oyster, but I did not read a novel until I went to college. I didn't do math until I went to college. I really had no education until I went to college. That's really what happened. And I believed that I was incapable of being educated in that way. ⁓ of most of me did, but there was a part of me too that thought, well, maybe I can, you know, and that fighter spirit and ADHD ⁓ we have and some very important people in my life that believed in my possibility and potential. ⁓ And so I was able to press on and here I am with all my accolades, right? But most people would not suspect that that was my journey. And it's so wild to me when I hear people talk about my writing and everything, knowing that I didn't know English. don't, know, all the grammar, you know, reading everything like until college. And still to this day, I couldn't tell you what a synapsis is or whatever that are not a. you know, all the grammar language, like, because I missed that class, you know? And so, ⁓ so I would say to my younger self that this message that you are incapable, that you are not intelligent is a lie. It's not true. They just haven't learned about your brain yet. And there, and we can get that done for her. But she's very smart and intelligent and capable, and she's going to do amazing things. So keep on going and Daniella Karidi, PhD: Right. Dr. Shawn Horn: Let yourself sparkle and be spicy. Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: Love that. I love that. I love that message. And then what would you tell your future self? What will you tell your tomorrow self? Dr. Shawn Horn: I ⁓ always think about the tomorrow self, what would she say to me now? But I haven't thought I would just say, ⁓ I love her and thank you for the journey and for making it worthwhile and purposeful and mission driven. And, and I love her. Yeah. Daniella Karidi, PhD: I like that very much. Well, I really appreciate you joining and thank you for writing this book and thank you for coming to be a guest and thank you for being my friend. Dr. Shawn Horn: Thank you so much. Daniella Karidi, PhD: And to you that attended, that listened until the end, ⁓ please feel free to follow ADHD Time on Air to hear more podcasts with more authors ⁓ talking about their ADHD related books. See you.