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Abi Blakeslee, Ph.D. The Way of Somatic Experiencing: from the archives · The Trauma Therapist

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Or today we even another episode from the archives with one of my incredible guests.
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Enjoy or welcome back to the Trauma Dipas podcast. My name is Guy
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mckperson. My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to
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be human, to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big
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believer in who we are is more important than what we know, and this
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requires cultivating authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can
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learn more about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist Project dot
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com. That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started, our
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guys. Welcome back to the Trauma divers podcast. Guy mc ferson here and
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super excited to have my guest today, doctor Abbie Blakeslee. Abbie welcome,
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thank you, Thank you so much for inviting me. All right, So,
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Abbie integrates semantic experiencing with clinical research, the psychobiological principles of attachment,
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psychodynamic therapy, and semantic body work in her practice and teaching. She conducted
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original research on the role of implicit memory and semantic experiencing with the committee that
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included doctor Daniel Siegel, Doctor Blakesley holds and Masters of Arts and Counseling and
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Depth Psychology and a PhD in Clinical and semantic psychology. She's interested in the
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intersection between neuroscience, current trauma research, and the psychobiological principles of semantic experiencing.
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All right, true, got through that awesome Abbie. Welcome, Thanks,
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thanks again for doing this. Such a pleasure to be here. All
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right, So before we get going, I know we talked a little bit
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about this but before we started recording, but share with our listeners where you're
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from originally and where you're located now. Well, we were just talking about
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my family lineage here because guys calling from Oakland. My great grandmother grew up
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in Oakland. Grandmother and my father so the paternal side in California. I
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grew up right outside of Los Angeles, and now I live in Bozeman,
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Montana, and I have three young children here and we spend a lot of
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time in the mountains and fishing and kind of you know, chasing the outdoors
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as much as possible. What I just want to diverge a little here,
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but what brought you out to Montana? Quality of life? Peaceful miss m
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There's a really close knit community here and the great outdoors. You know,
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we're going to be talking about the nervous system. But for me and my
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family, we find a lot of expanse and also settling when we're outdoors together.
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It connects us to a sense of something greater and it's exciting, so
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there's sort of that, you know, there's a charge to it in a
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positive way. And then it's also deeply peaceful, which were you know,
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parasympathetic rest and digest. So it's really just having that kind of the sense
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of regulation in the environment, which is different. And for me in Los
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Angeles there's a lot of go go go, so I feel for many that
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live in cities, you know, there's a real pressure and demand on our
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nervous systems right to produce, to stay aware, to be an alert.
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So I think in those kinds of environments we have to be even more conscientious
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of our evolution and take time to be outside, see long distances, or
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even just snuggle up, settle and take time for that rest and recuperation phase
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of life. Wow, I really appreciate sharing that. I mean that resonates
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with me and we can talk about that later. You know, we're going
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to talk about sematic experiencing and you're you're interested in and focus on neuroscience and
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so forth. But before we do, can we kind of really hear your
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story of how you got here in the first place. What inspired that in
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you? Well, way back, I discovered that if I gave my parents
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massages, they would buy me ice cream, yep. And and it was
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it At bask and Robbins they had the Matterhorn, which was, you know,
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all different kinds of ice cream with whipped cream and chocolate sauce. And
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so I learned very early on kind of a love of body work and the
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body, and it got really good at finding not you know, I'd put
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dimes into phone books to see if I could feel where it was, and
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so it was a reward. It was just kind of a you know,
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basic a little bit of dopamine there early on, and I became really curious
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about how bodies moved and tension patterns, and after college went into to bodywork
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school became a body worker. For several years. I was doing polarity and
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deep tissue work, and I started to become curious about how I might be
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working on one part of the body and a memory would emerge for someone,
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maybe something I had a thought about in twenty years, or there would be
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a large emotional release that would happen when I worked on a muscle. So
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I started to get curious about this mind body connection piece. And I had
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a mentor bodywork mentor of mine recommend doctor Peter Levine's Waking the Tiger and ramdas
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how can I help? And I read both of those and I was struck
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by doctor Levine's work and how after many years in the autonomic nervous system and
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in the body, we can have an imprint of things that happened to us
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long ago, but it's more non conscious, just like in the muscular shirt,
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right, so it can be held for long periods of time. And
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that actually led me into my master's program and then into my PhD program,
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and I let go of body work for a period of time. I'm really
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focused on psychodynamic work and clinical work, and through se oriented touch work began
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to integrate the two. Later in my career, it was kind of like
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coming home again. But I found that somatic experiencing has really been the foundation
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for the way that I perceive trauma healing. I think it's one of the
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and I'm biased. I teach somatic experiencing, but the reason why I teach
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it is that I just stuck with it for a decade and then I became
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a faculty member. So I've been in the field for close to two decades,
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and I think it has one of the best sort of progressive learning tools.
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It's something that we can teach our clients to be able to do themselves.
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And there are skills and our tools to be able to tend to our
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responses that are non conscious, right, or some are nonconscious and some are
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unconscious. Some things it will never really be able to pay attention to,
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but we can pay attention to internal things that are happening with these survival responses
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that are right there in the lower brain, right, that are hard to
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access without these kinds of tools. So that's one of the things that really
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excites me. You're asking me about my passion, and I just I love
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this work. I really do. And for many people it's the missing peace.
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Now, when you found Semitic Experiencing SE and read Peter Levin's work,
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I mean, for those people who aren't familiar with it, I mean it's
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about trauma, right, I mean, how did you, how did you
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move into that whole topic? Right? You talked initially about the body and
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memories and so forth, but of course now you're moving into this or being
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introduced to the topic of trauma. How did you move into that and how
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did that interact with you? Well, at first, it was really just
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a basic curiosity about human nature and how are we the way we are and
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wanting to gather more information being a body work or you know really that they
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called the issues and the tissues, right, having some some openness around looking
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at kind of these the lower level of responses, and then how we think
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we are who we are? Right, we have all of these ideas of
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who we are, but we have these kind of habits and ways of being
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that we've learned long ago that are part of the continuum of our experience.
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So I started one of the se trainings as a body worker before I went
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into my mental health education, and I remember in somatic experiencing beginning one,
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I started to feel things. I'd been a dancer prior to that, so
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I had musculoskeletal knowledge and I thought I was very embodied, which I was,
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but I didn't recognize that there's a whole universe inside of ourselves. It's
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as if the nervous system is a poem that unfolds right. We can have
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feelings that are sparkly or undulating, or soft or fluid. We can have
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feelings of a pillar or a column. Yeah, it can be vaporous.
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But the learning what we call some named called interroseption, which is a term
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that was developed by doctor Bud Craig who's a neuroscientist. It's a wonderful book
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called how Do You Feel? Not for the faint of heart, It is
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definitely a neuroscience book, but they talk about this ability of a part of
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your brain called the insula or the insular cortex to consciously become aware of internal
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sensation. And when you have multiple sensations happening at any time, and your
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insula will not light up, meaning there's not blood flow metabolic activity on an
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MRI machine, But when you become conscious of a sensation, this part of
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the brain lights up, this conscious attention to internal sensation. And this is
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actually super interesting because they find that long term meditators actually have thicker right anterior
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insula. The work of Sarah Lazare and then there's another researcher named Critchley who
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looks at empathy and people who have a better ability to sense their heart rate,
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so it's higher inter reception, they score higher on empathy tests. And
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so we can look at this ability to feel yourself helps us to have a
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better sense of feeling others, feeling connected with others, right, which is
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something that certainly gets lost in trauma. Our capacity to be able to take
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in right, or be able to focus on relationship or feel safe in a
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relationship be poor. Just talks about the neuroseption of safety. Right. But
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coming back to that full circle here, with that, that sensory experience discovered
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a whole universe inside of myself. And I noticed where I felt vibrant and
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alive through I call that resilient. I also noticed where I felt terror,
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where I felt construction in relationship to certain events or current triggers, where I
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might go numb or feel spacey. It gave me a whole new reference point
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for these things that were happening kind of under my conscious radar all of the
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time, and an ability to process those things from what we call the autonomic
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level or that lower level. Okay, so that was going on for you
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when you were as a result of getting into this a s course. Absolutely,
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Okay, So I had a few different responses. You know, I
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think you mentioned about trauma. Yeah, we can look at somatic experiencing as
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a trauma resolution model, but there's another side to it. I really liked
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the idea of also calling it a resiliency building model, because what's on the
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other side. When we become less constricted, when we come out of freeze,
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when we discharge or release or get more organized in our nervous system,
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become more present to the current moment. This is where we have more resilience,
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We have more sense of flow, capacity, capability, right right,
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Yeah, it's funny. As you just said that, it reminded me of
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discussion I had with these a dental chuck and she just published a bookbook and
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she was talking about that too. She was saying, yes, there's trauma
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and attention to that and working on that, but what about kind of the
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other side of that, you know, she was talking. It reminded me
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of bringing attention to this other aspect. So I really appreciate that. So
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what happened in your personal experience as you started what becoming a working with people
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in this context. Yeah. So through the Sematic Experiencing training, it's a
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three year training for professionals. I was doing my own personal work, somatic
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personal work, and then also working in an agency and then also in private
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practice and really teaching people skills and tools to slow down and to become curious
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about what their internal state is in the moment. So somatic means body oriented,
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and experiencing is a verb. So the experience of the body in the
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present moment and the healing happens in the here and now. We can talk
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about different events that happened, but as someone is talking, I might be
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tracking or noticing what's happening in their nervous system or in their body. And
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then I'll ask, as you talk about the stress that you feel when you're
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driving to work, stuck in traffic in Oakland, what sensations do you notice
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in your body right now? Yeah, and so that would be a question
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that we could explore and to sort of see where a person might be getting
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stuck, where there might be we call either trauma or less resilience. Kind
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it's on a spectrum there. But let's say that's something that someone wanted to
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work on and they're feeling anxiety. Now there are two branches of the nervous
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system. We have the sympathetic nervous system for excitation, and we have the
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parasympathetic nervous system relaxation. And in many of these kinds of somatic models,
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if you have two lines, you can imagine two lines, and then you
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have a wave that goes in between. We have a soft on, soft
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off, soft on, soft off. So it's sympathetic. Comparisympathetic are somewhat
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reciprocal throughout the day, right, and we get a little bit stressed,
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and then we settle back down again, a little bit stressed, and we
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settle back down again. Now with trauma, what can happen is we can
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get into a cycle of dysregulation where we move outside of that window of tolerance
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into a high sympathetic response. Now, when we are threatened, it could
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be real or perceived threat, we go into something called the threat response cycle.
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This is a time limited evolutionary pathway that we move through and then we
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should, given time, given support, return back to this kind of baseline
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in a sense, so we move into the high sympathetic charge. Let's say
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somebody swerves over towards you, you're driving the car, they swerve towards you,
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and you go into a sense of alert. Then you orient through your
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five senses towards the threat. Yeah, and then you move into a sympathetic
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right excitation in order for action. Do I need to swerve? Do I
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need to hit the brake? Right? What do I do? This is
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a lower brain reaction. It's happening underneath your conscious ratear. Thank goodness,
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you're not thinking for every little movement. It's an instinctual response. And then
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the car, let's say, swerves back. They're texting, right, they
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get a little angry, Darren, it would be texting, you know,
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say something and then you start to settle back down again. At this point,
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your heart is pumping, you're breathing fast, your blood is circulating for
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action. There's several other things that happen. You're not digesting your food.
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Yeah, and then you know, you maybe get a little wobbly, You're
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shaky, little tingly. You track your sensations. When you come down a
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high sympathetic charge, you start to feel some of these kinds of quakiness,
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shakiness, trembliness, tingliness, vibration, and it's really as things start to
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settle back down again and then softening, expansion, warmth, gurgling in the
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tummy, heaviness in the limbs, Yeah, and kind of coming back to
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a resting state. So it might be tracking that with somebody, as they're
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talking about, maybe someone doesn't squove into their lane, but now they're feeling
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stressed all the time they're driving, and they're consistently in this high autonomic alert
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state. It's not healthy for their system, right, you want to be
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able to move into it and then return to some level of a baseline.
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Now another thing that can happen, And I think this is a great gift
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of Peter Levine's work and that Dana and other people are talking about in polyvagel
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theory, which is there's also another parasympathetic response that we and animals move into
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when there is real or perceived life threat or severe life threat. Is a
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passive defensive response called a freeze response. And we think about this with the
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possum. Yeah, and it's everything stopped played dead in the wild. This
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offers an opportunity for prey. Sometimes the predator will be not so interested in
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an inert meal. Yeah, so they either the coyotes will sniff the possum
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and then think it doesn't smell good, it's not moving. It might be
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it must be old, and they move on, or the predator can actually
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drag the prey over or sit with the prey, either get distracted or not
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be interested in it. There's a lot of really interesting videos of impalas being
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caught by jaguars and other kinds of large cats, and baboons come over and
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chase the big cats away. I don't know why, but the baboons seemed
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to be very interested. So you can type in baboons and IMPALA's on YouTube
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and see this. But so the predator gets distracted, and you'll see this
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the animal coming out of freeze again through shaking and trembling. If I were
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to ask, the impala probably be tangling and feeling something coming out of a
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feeling of being very cold and constricted into high heat, right, and then
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moving down into warmth sweating. Yeah, and sometimes some water will come out
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of its eyes. Yeah, it'll start to salivate again after having a very
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dry mouth, and then they will pop up and run away. So human
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beings, we have this same ability at the same time when we're in a
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freeze. It's an analgesic, so it's a numbing response. If we're injured,
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we won't feel it. Yeah, so when we have times where it
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freeze again, should be time limited. There are going to be times where
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we're so overwhelmed our bodies will decide to go in a passive defensive response and
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we'll go into shutdown, or we'll get so terrified, right, or there's
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a kind of a more helpless situation where there's inescapable attack and we'll go into
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a freeze response. Given time, given support, the body comes out of
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it. But without those conditions, we might remain in a freeze response at
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a baseline, or be triggered into that freeze response when there's something into the
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environment that is similar enough or our lower brain assesses is similar enough to the
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original trauma. And this is what's so frustrating for so many trauma survivors is
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they're so smart. You know, we're all we're smart. If we decided
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to just be better, we would be. But why am I feeling afraid?
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Why am I having social anxiety? Why am I feeling depressed and shut
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down? Why is it so hard for me to motivate to get out of
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bed. Why is it I freeze every time that I'm trying to fill out
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the form for the job application. Why is it I'm having such a hard
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time connecting with my partner when they're upset with me about a little thing.
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I go into this deep shot down right and close off so right. We
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have these patterns that are part of a survival response. Our body was trying
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to keep us safe. Did keep us safe because we're still here. But
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it's the repetition of that response which becomes dysregulation in a current situation where we
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might want some more flexible responses available to us. So tracking the freeze allowing
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the release cycle to happen with time. Sometimes with doctor Peter Levine's work too.
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And this is not as it's not as utilized in many other theories.
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As we call it the completion of defensive responses in procedural memory, which is
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nonconscious their movement patterns. So the person as they come out of freeze might
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have this feeling of running or escaping. They might have a feeling of punching
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or standing up for themselves. So I've worked many times with kids who have
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been bullied and they've been surrounded by bullies right and physically harmed. So they
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went into a freeze response. And as we track notice the freeze response,
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spend some time. They feel my support. They notice they're not in that
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situation now, they're coming out of numbness. They start to feel cold and
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a little trembly, and they maybe there's a little shakiness or a little vibration,
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could be just under the skin, or it could actually become a little
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bit more to the surface. And as they're coming out the same you know,
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I just I really wanted to scream. I wanted to say something I
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wanted. You know, I don't know why anybody helped me. I feel
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the agency in your body right now. You wanted to say help me,
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so right here and now, would you be willing just to say that help
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me? Yeah, And notice what it feels like to use your voice in
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this moment. And I'm right here with you. You are receiving help now.
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There wasn't anybody there then, but I'm here now. And notice that,
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and take some time right in the repair. And then you know,
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as they're coming on it again, and they start to feel tension in their
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arms, and I said, just let that tension happen. They go,
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oh, so weird. My hands are in fists right, or my leg
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feels like it wants to kick, And I say, we'll let your body
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feel the power of that and go slowly and notice how that is, and
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then through the body. A lot of the time the story will come forward
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and they say, it's so weird. It's as if I wanted to kick
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them away. That's right. I imagine that there was that right underneath the
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freeze. There's that feeling of wanting to punch or kick or get a way
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or stand up for yourself. So let's do that now. So let me
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just interrupt. So, just for the benefit of our listeners, what are
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you doing as you're walking that client through that self awareness in that moment.
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There are two pieces to this, So one is called tracking. Where we
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are together, we're following their internal sensory experience to notice what the body wants
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to do. Now. So we're going to be watching and listening and following.
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So if the body starts to tremble, I'll say, let that happen.
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If the body starts to starts to tighten, we might follow that tightening
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to see if there's a movement pattern that comes up right, or if I
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see the person sitting up more straight, I'll say, right, so I'm
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attending. Are you noticing how your spine just straightened? How does that feel
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to you? I feel more here, wonderful. So be in that we're
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tracking, we're following. Now there is another piece and somatic experiencing. You
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know, when our students are learning, see, there's this feeling that it
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can be very intuitive, and yet we're actually quite conscious sometimes of where we
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might direct a client's attention. And there are a few things about that.
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One is that if there is an autonomic like a release like a discharge,
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but somewhere else is tensing or somewhere else's right feeling disconnected, we might direct
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a person attention to that release cycle. Yeah, or we might direct a
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person's attention Let's say, if an area is feeling really good and an area
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is feeling really uncomfortable, depending on the person. For many people, they
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haven't felt good in twenty years, and they're used to following the discomfort.
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So we say, you know, let's not pay attention to that lump and
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solid feeling in your neck. You just said that your chest just opened,
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or there's a softening in your shoulders before we go to that feeling in your
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neck, would you be willing to take some time with the softness in your
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shoulders, So we might actually be very directive in our attention and in the
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softening of the shoulders. Let's see now that the tension could RaSE in the
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throat, or it may soften as it softens, maybe an emotion comes,
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right, maybe some tears the person hasn't been able to feel for a period
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of time. So that's sort of what one of the things I'm noticing,
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we're tracking, we're following, and I'm also helping a person to discharge a
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release, complete incomplete, defensive responses connected to something in the past, and
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how the nervous system is firing in the present moment, and also making sure
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that they're not getting trapped in the trauma vortex. And we might be moving
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trauma vortex meaning negative sensations, uncomfortable feelings, dysregulation, disease, and starting
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to build a capacity to move towards where they feel better, where they feel
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more whole. Resources they have, what they think about, resources that make
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them feel more like themselves, more present, but also embodied resources. Right,
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yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I love this. I
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love that kind of drilling down into almost the minutia and the specifics of how
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someone is feeling. And I like the way you talked about it is kind
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of bringing their attention away from that maybe pattern that they're used to paying attention
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to the at quote unquote negative experience. But well, let's look at the
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softness in here for once, right, and the power behind that potential hower
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behind that in the sense absolutely sometimes I call it the parasympathetic domino effect,
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to where you know, if you feel an attend to place, even if
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it's three to five percent change. And for many trauma survivors, that's what
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we're looking for. We're learning to track and attend to the small amounts of
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betterness in the nervous system in the body, in the overall experience, in
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the here and now, right and then, and some people can will notice
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a very much deeper response in the somatic experiencing work. You know, they
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can get to seventy five percent betterness by just attending to it, you know,
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just kind of one part starts to settle, in other parts that starts
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to gurgle, another part that starts to soften, and the brain and the
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amygdala, which is on this alert what's wrong, what's wrong? What's wrong?
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Goes Oh, my shoulders are soft. Maybe nothing is wrong right now,
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Okay, let's kind of dial down that cortisol don't have to do all
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that stress response. Catecholamines in the brain start to calm down here, you
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don't need to keep firing. And then we go into more of that,
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you know, a downshift. We call it down regulation. Now there is
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an interesting piece here, you do you want to mention sometimes we actually might
31:26
need to steer someone towards the trauma vortex. This would be somebody who might
31:33
be a little bit more in the all is good category, you know,
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everything great, everything's fine. And also sometimes long term meditators, for example,
31:45
where there could be a way of um there's an embodied kind of pathway
31:55
and towards towards meditation right and working with altered states or different states of consciousness.
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There's also some really interesting research to show that there can be almost like
32:12
a trained dissociation, so it feels really good to disconnect, but dissociation is
32:19
also a trauma response of disconnecting from the body, kind of floating out there,
32:23
being away from the corporal experience because it feels like too much. But
32:29
when somebody lands back in, all of that regulation is still there, so
32:32
they have to keep sort of going out. It's a more functional way,
32:36
right, It's not as distressing, but we might have to say no,
32:42
no, no, don't go into that blissful state of transcendence. Come back.
32:47
What's the feeling that's underneath when you're here that makes you want to go
32:51
away to that place? What is the tension, what is the distress?
32:55
What is the stuckness? Yeah, I mean that's a really good point.
33:01
And the purpose behind that is what aside from your moving someone away from or
33:08
kind of inviting them away from this association into the here and now, to
33:15
be able to kind of open up that kind of door to the feelings behind
33:22
the trauma a sense, right, right, And we have a lot of
33:27
different ways to work with that. So sometimes just being with it, your
33:31
conscious attention, tracking your internal sensation, including negative sensation, your body will
33:37
start to shift. So a common question we ask is, as you feel
33:43
I'll use a trauma or tex sensation. As you feel that tension in your
33:45
chest, how big is it? Does it have a shape beside a color
33:51
as you feel that. What begins to happen next? Does it increase,
33:55
does it decrease or stay the same. Some people will decrease, they'll feel
34:00
better, right, we're moving in a right direction. For other people,
34:06
maybe it's stuck. So I say, well, what else is there?
34:07
We'll move the attention somewhere else and help the systems sort of move along.
34:14
Other times it will increase, get more uncomfortable, get you first. For
34:19
many people spending time in the body, they leave their bodies for good reasons.
34:25
And so when we start to come back in to the reassociation process and
34:32
into some of the sensations of the freeze and the terror and the fight and
34:37
the flight, it's not easy. So we may also need to take some
34:44
breaks. Stabilize in the external environment, look around right, find some objects
34:50
in the room that the person likes, Explore the room through the five senses,
34:54
chit chat a little bit in the neo cortex, kind of come out
34:59
of that, and then we're going to tap back in a little bit,
35:02
touch back in. Are you feeling any different now or what are you aware
35:06
of? Peter Living calls it titration. It's like a drop by drop model,
35:12
and so it comes from chemistry chasing changing a base to an ascid.
35:15
You have to put the drop in and let the solution settle. And they
35:21
have you know, I think of all of those nineteen eighties videos with the
35:25
you know, the kids have to wear the goggles, right, or the
35:29
mad scientists, right, have to wear the goggles because if they put too
35:31
much in, it explodes. And in those movies they came out with like
35:36
you know, black blackened hair and stood all over their faces. And so
35:42
that's that idea, that drop by drop For some people, we're not going
35:46
to kind of go all at it at once, and then it's a slow
35:51
process of touching into the nervous system, allowing a little bit of reorganization,
35:55
moving attention to different aspects, moving the system through time, coming back out
36:01
into the environment into the present moment, right Yeah, I mean, man,
36:08
it's I'm just looking at the time here. This could go on forever.
36:13
I mean, there's so much richness here. We appreciate it. I
36:15
didn't even get to asking you about the the awareness and you know, and
36:21
I love talking about this awareness of the person doing this. The therapist that's
36:28
you know what's required. I mean, you talked a lot about your background
36:30
as a body worker and a dancer. I mean, but as we close
36:36
out here, you know the people are listening to this, I know they're
36:38
getting oh my god, this sounds so intense. If someone is interested in
36:46
learning more about this and maybe even jumping in, and where would you direct
36:52
them? Yeah, so I would highly recommend going to our professional website,
37:00
which is traumahaling dot org. So, if you're a professional and you're interested
37:05
in learning about sematic experiencing, we have articles, we have wonderful training programs
37:13
all over the world. If you are interested in receiving sematic experiencing, we
37:17
have a practitioner directory and you can click on there and you can look for
37:22
providers in your area. If there's no provider in your area, you can
37:27
also look for people who do online work. Can you mentioned you know,
37:30
it's it's intense work, but it's also can be exquisitely gentle, you know,
37:38
because we are working in this tight trated way. It really helps people
37:43
begin to have this deeper sense of wholeness, you know, when they can
37:47
connect to that sense of source and sense of self and allow some of the
37:53
release or the reorganization. It's a real relief to the nervous system, and
38:01
like I said, it really can be the missing piece for many people.
38:05
I really encourage everyone to try it. It's made a huge difference for me
38:08
in my life, which is why I teach the work. Now, well,
38:13
that's awesome. So you know you mentioned a few books around us,
38:17
and how do you feel about was up Bud Craig, Yeah, okay,
38:22
I'll have those listed up, and of course Peter Levine's work and so forth.
38:27
But aside from that, and it doesn't have to be trauma related or
38:31
not. I can see the balentiful of books behind you. What kind of
38:37
go to book recommendation would you have for listeners? Something that kind of stands
38:42
out to you? Well, you know, the Peter Levine book that I
38:45
really love is In an Unspoken Voice, which is the newest book. He
38:52
also has a great book called Trauma and Memory. If you're a therapist,
38:55
you might find some real interest in that because it's all about plicit memory and
39:00
working with that kind of play by play. You know, I read a
39:08
lot of different things, I mean recently Bud Craig is he's really my hero,
39:15
and that's all of that work on inter reception which I find so fascinating.
39:20
Of course, there's Stephen porgeous poly bagel theory. Deb Dana has a
39:23
great clinical application of poly bagel theory. She has her own modality, but
39:30
sc has been working with poly bagel theory for I mean, I think we
39:36
were one of the first therapist that recognized it and started using it as in
39:39
a clinical model. So I'd say those are my my go to books.
39:45
There's also Maggie Klein and Peter Levine have wonderful books Trauma through a Child's Eyes,
39:52
and if you're a parent or a caregiver, they also have Trauma Proofing
39:57
your Kids, and they're excellent somatic approaches to working with kids. Of course,
40:04
I have young ones so and I work with kids and families, so
40:07
it's a great primer to kind of bring this work and embodiment practices because we
40:15
can do this when we're older, but we can also begin to bring it
40:19
right from the get go into young people's lives. And that's very exciting to
40:22
me. Awesome, Well, I mean, it's been a delight having you
40:25
on here, and you definitely give us like this mini master class and some
40:31
experience. I want to thank you. I want to thank you so much
40:34
for coming on board here. You're welcome. It's in such a pleasure appreciate
40:38
it. Take care. Bye bye