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The Economics of Golf Course Construction (feat. Bruce Hepner) · Designing Golf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: One of the biggest problems facing the golf course industry
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: today is the rising cost of construction, the cost of
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: building new courses, and the cost of renovating existing ones.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Especially since twenty twenty, these expenses have gone way up
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: and have ultimately been passed on to the golfer, most
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: obviously in the form of higher green fees, but also
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: more subtly in the way that the industry as a
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: whole has moved toward the high end, toward pricey resorts
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: and exclusive clubs. So I thought it was time to
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: talk about the economics of golf course construction, about what
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: it takes to build a golf course affordably in a
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: time where everything seems to be unaffordable. My guest is
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Bruce Hepner, a long time golf architect who has recently
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: taken on some surprisingly low cost projects and who have
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: some fascinating thoughts about where golf architecture as a whole
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: is headed. I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is designing golf.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: What do the different components of a golf course construction
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: project cost, or really what should they cost? I get
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: asked versions of this question all the time, and honestly
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: there's no good answer because every project is different, but
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: we can definitely talk about the general economics of golf
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: course construction, and a little later we'll discuss three excellent
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: modern golf courses that were built on low budgets and
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: are still affordable to play. Now, this might seem like
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: a funny topic to take on right after the Masters,
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: given that most people would not associate Augusta National with
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: economical golf course construction or maintenance. But actually Augusta National
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: did begin its life life as an experiment in what
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: its co designer Alistair McKenzie called the economy of golf
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: course construction. Famously, the course originally had just twenty two bunkers,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: and it also had very simple agronomy, just one cut
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: for the fairways and one cut for the greens. For
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: most of his career, McKenzie was obsessed with this idea
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: of economy and construction because for him, saving money in
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: building courses was not just a nice benefit for his clients.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: He thought that it actually produced better golf courses. So
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: let's start with a few things that mackenzie repeatedly emphasized
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: in talking about this subject. One he was insistent on
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: the importance of hiring a capable golf architect. Now, in
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: one sense this was self serving, but in another completely indisputable. Sperienced,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: qualified architect can definitely help you avoid costly mistakes in
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: the future. Two Mackenzie was an avid proponent of saving
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: money by working with the natural landscape instead of against it,
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: choosing sites that were already well adapted to golf, and
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: routing the course so that you didn't need a lot
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: of large scale earth moving to create the holes. Three
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: he advocated for minimizing bunkers and other artificial hazards. I
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: will say he did not always practice this, but he
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: did at Augusta National, so at least there's that. Four
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Mackenzie was all about using modern labor saving technology. If
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: there was something a machine could do just as well
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: as manual labor, he wasn't a romantic about it. He
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: was fine with mechanizing certain tasks. Lastly, Mackenzie spoke a
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: lot about achieving what he called finality in golf course construction,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: in other words, designing and building the course well enough
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: so that it wouldn't have to be changed in the future.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: And this is where Mackenzie makes it clear that economy
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: in construction is not just about saving money during the
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: building process itself. It's about heading off future expenses, and
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  Speaker 1: this might sometimes involve spending a little more right now
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: in order to avoid spending a lot down the line.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: So it's a balance. There are things that you need
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: to invest in like a good architect, and there are
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  Speaker 1: things that you don't need to overspend on. So one
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: of the major tasks for a course developer or a
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: green committee is to distinguish the smart investments from the
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: unnecessary ones, the needs versus the bells and whistles. All right,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: let's bring this to the present day and about the
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: economics of modern golf course construction. Now we're setting aside
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: for the moment, pre construction costs, which would include purchasing
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: the land and getting planning and permitting taken care of,
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: clearly a major expense, but not what our focus is today.
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  Speaker 1: What are the biggest line items in a golf course
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  Speaker 1: construction budget. I have to start with irrigation. You would
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: be shocked at how expensive it is to install a
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: modern top of the line irrigation system. That alone typically
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: accounts for somewhere in the range of a quarter to
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  Speaker 1: a third of an entire construction budget, so irrigation that
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  Speaker 1: is the albatross of any golf course project. Another huge
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  Speaker 1: expense is large scale earth moving and site preparation. Basically,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: this is about adapting a site to golf, making sure
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: it's walkable, graspable, that it drains. So obviously, this cost
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: is lower for properties that are already well suited to
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: the game, and that's why this is a very dynamic category.
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  Speaker 1: It's often the reason that a project costs either way
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: more or way less than you would anticipate. A few
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  Speaker 1: other notable expenses would be bunkers, especially when you factor
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: in ongoing maintenance. If you decide to put in USGA
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: spec or subair under your green, that can get pricey.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: Cart paths sometimes cost millions of dollars by themselves. And finally,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: kind of interacting with all of the above, you have labor,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: who's on site and what are they doing? Now. I'm
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: sure you can see at this point how golf course
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: construction budgets can spiral out of control. There's just so
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: much that needs to get done, So how do you
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: cut through the noise and identify the needs versus the
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: bell and whistles. Let's talk about three modern US golf
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: courses that I think did exactly that. These courses were
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: built very affordably and can still be played for reasonable rates. First,
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Wildhorse Golf Club in Nebraska, wonderful golf course built by
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Dave Axland and Dan Procter in nineteen ninety nine. The
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: total cost of establishing the club was somewhere around one
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: point three million, and the construction of the course itself
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  Speaker 1: came in under a million. The single biggest line item
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  Speaker 1: in the budget was the irrigation system. You won't find
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: that surprising. I've heard that it costs somewhere in the
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: range of six hundred thousand dollars by itself, so that's
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: where they made their huge investment. But aside from that,
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  Speaker 1: the course was built for just a few hundred thousand dollars,
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  Speaker 1: and in my opinion, it is the best non resort
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: public course in the United States. Next up, Rustic Canyon
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  Speaker 1: Golf Course, designed by Gilhan's Jim Wagner and Jeff Shackelford.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: This is one of the best golf courses you can
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: play in Southern California, public or private, and the cost
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: of constructing the course itself was three million. In two
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: thousand and two. About four hundred thousand of that went
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: to the cart paths, which the developer wanted but the
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: architects were a bit chagrined about. But in all other
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: areas the design team used a very light touch. They
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: ended up moving only about seventeen thousand cubic yards of dirt.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: And just to put that in perspective, when Mike Strantz
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: built Tobacco Road Golf Club in North Carolina in nineteen
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  Speaker 1: ninety eight, he moved around five hundred thousand cubic yards.
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  Speaker 1: So you know, you can see how the earth moving
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: and site preparation part of the budget can be really
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: low or really high depending on the quality of the
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: land and the intent of the architect. Now, if you're
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: interested in the full story behind Rustic Camion, Jeff Shackelford
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: goes into great detail about it in his book Grounds
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: for Golf. Grounds for Golf has been out of print
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: for a while and a little bit hard to get,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: but it's being republished on June fifteenth this year, so
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: make sure to check that out. Okay, last project I
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: want to talk about is Diamond Springs Golf Course in Hamilton, Michigan.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: Diamond Springs was designed by Chris Schumacher and Mike Devrees
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  Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, and they were really innovative
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  Speaker 1: in the way they set this course up for low
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: cost maintenance in the future. Diamond Springs has old fashioned
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: single row irrigation in the fairways, so the sprinkler heads
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: just go right down the center of the whole corridors,
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  Speaker 1: and like the original Augusta National, there are two heights
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: of cut fairway and green. Both of these factors allow
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: for simple, efficient, affordable maintenance, and it's a terrific golf
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: course that anyone can play for sixty dollars at most.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: So three projects, Wildhorse, Rustic Canyon, and Diamond Springs, what
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  Speaker 1: do they all have in common? One they started with
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: properties that were already well suited to golf. All three
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: had sandy soils and good natural undulation. The Wildhorse property
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: was basically perfect. Rustic Canyon was a little more complicated
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: because it was environmentally sensitive, but a great site for golf,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: so good land in all three cases. The second thing
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  Speaker 1: these projects have in common is that they were directed
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: by excellent golf architects who had plenty of experience but
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: were still on their way up so they were not
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: expensive to hire. Three. Those architects were devoted to minimalism
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: and the design build method. They wanted to work with
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: the natural landscape, they wanted to minimize artificial hazards, and
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: when they did move dirt, they wanted to do it themselves.
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  Speaker 2: Four.
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  Speaker 1: In each of the projects, there was what I would
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: describe as a remarkable lack of ego in what they
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: were setting out to accomplish. They weren't going for the photogenic,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: all green, everywhere turf presentation. They weren't trying to build
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: a top one hundred golf course, though in the case
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: of Wildhorse, I would argue that they got there anyway,
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  Speaker 1: but that was not the intent. They were just trying
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: to build good golf at a reasonable price, and that
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  Speaker 1: attitude is unfortunately pretty rare in today's golf course industry.
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  Speaker 1: Keep in mind that all three courses I just talked
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  Speaker 1: about opened between nineteen ninety nine in two thousand and two.
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  Speaker 1: Those kinds of projects, new build projects built affordably are
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  Speaker 1: just not happening very often right now. One big reason
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  Speaker 1: for that is that the cost of everything has gone
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  Speaker 1: way up. But I do believe there has also been
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  Speaker 1: a shift in philosophy. I think we've become much more
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: interested in trying to match the splendor of Alistair Mackenzie's
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  Speaker 1: courses and less interested in following his advice on economy
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  Speaker 1: and construction, and that I think is a problem for
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: the future of the game. Now, to talk about that
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  Speaker 1: issue a little more in depth, I'm going to bring
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: on the golf architect Bruce Hepner. Bruce got his start
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: in the industry working for ron Force and Tom Doak.
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  Speaker 1: He worked on some incredible dok projects, including bally Neil
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: and Cape Kidnappers, and he also developed a specialty in gradual,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: sensitive restorations of classic courses like Essex County Club and
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Cape Arundle. Recently, Bruce has done a lot of work
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: on public courses. He's helping to revitalize several municipal facilities
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: in Nashville, Tennessee, and he also carried out a major
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: renovation of Miami Lakes Golf Club in Florida last year.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: He has a bunch of interesting things to say about
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: economy and construction and what he sees as the excesses
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: of modern golf architecture. So let's go to my conversation
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: with Bruce Hepner. So, Bruce, you told me when we
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: chatted a couple of days ago that you have been
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: playing a little bit more golf lately. How's that going?
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: The scores aren't going down, but I'm kind of taking
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: a year or so off. I don't have any projects
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: till fall at twenty seven. So I told my wife,
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: I'm like, you know, I play that crap forever. I'm like,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: I want to kind of dedicate this year to playing
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: golf and taking Lasson's, hitting balls indoors every day. And
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: just got back from Florida. Played two weeks of golf
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: down there. So it's just just fun to get out
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: and play, see new golf courses. I've seen a lot
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: of the new ones being built in Florida, but also
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: playing and reintroducing myself to my golf clubs.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: What did you see down there?
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: Saw may Aka mm hmm, the Big danea fry striker striker,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah right, yeah, just insane, just the biggest thing. I've
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: just gonna push Shadow Creek, the shade.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: They moved a lot of a lot of dirt out there.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: As elevation changed. Danis. I think they remember say they
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: dug one hundred and thirty acre leg fifty feet deep
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: and ran out of dirt, so they had to build
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: more lakes. It's it's amazing to create that kind of
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: a landscape out of your brain. Is somebody's brain is
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: just beyond my scope of what I've ever done. I
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: saw David's new course, David Kid's new course at streams On,
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: which is super cool. And then I went up to
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Aiken and saw Brian and Blake's new the Gilroy had
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: under construction. That's gonna be really cool.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the second eighteen whole course at Old Barnwell.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Then New Holland. I walked the routing at New
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Holland which Brian's doing ray across the street from the
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: tree Farm. Also an Ache and that's gonna be something
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: really cool. Wow, the rut it's just laying there.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: So yeah, there's some good stuff being built out there.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: So, Bruce, the main topic I wanted to tackle with
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: you today is what Alisair McKenzie called economy in golf
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: course construction, which is to say, building golf courses as
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: efficiently and affordably as possible without sacrificing quality. And this
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: is as big of an issue as it ever has been,
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: because everything about golf course construction has started to take
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: longer and cost more in the past few years. Nonetheless,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: you yourself have taken on a number of projects whereas
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: I understand it, economy has been a priority. First of all,
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: a series of renovations for the municipal Golf cyte them
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: in Nashville, Tennessee, and then just last year a big
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: overhaul of a public golf facility called Miami Lakes Golf
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Club in Florida. Was there something that that caused you
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: to take on these kinds of projects at this point
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: in your career or was it just sort of happenstance
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: that they came along at this time?
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: It was a perfect timing for me. You know, I've built,
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: you know, courses all over the world, but you know,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: you're working for Tom. We were still budget conscious. You know,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: he came from Pete and Pete. Pete was budget conscious,
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: so you know, we built Pacific Dudes and bally Neil
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: for a fraction of what renovations costs nowadays, So that
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: just carried over. You know, I grew up playing about
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: public golf courses, Caddie. You know, I wasn't a country
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: club kids, so, you know, and specifically Nashville it hit
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: the tone because there was just no there's no new
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: seats at the table, there's no new golf courses being built.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: There's one, but it's super private, and the only place
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: people could play were public golf courses and they've kind
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: of gone in disrepair, just like any city. You know,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: I grew up in Detroit, played Rackham. That's where I
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: grew up playing. And you know, any city metropolitan system
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: is usually that's the lowest priority right now. You know,
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: with the economy of it's gone, not a lot of
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: money is being sunk. And in some of these are
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: really good gems. You know, Rackham was a great ross
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: golf course. Yeah, so every every metropolitan area has these
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: and they're just going in disrepair, and you know, people
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: are playing the heck out of them, but there's just
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: not much money supporting him. So you know, that's what
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: got me interested. It's untapped, you know that, And that's
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: where golf starts. That's where most of us learn how
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: to play. Majority of golfers play public golf courses. They
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: don't carry handicap even they just play golf. They gone
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: and play golf, drink beer and have fun. So it's
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: it's kind of been pushed to the wayside, and and uh,
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm pretty comfortable. Yeah, I could retire right now,
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: I say, my money, but this is kind of fun.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: It's the way I can give back to the game
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: in my little way is to is promote this first
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: tea programs, Kaddy. You know Evan scholarship programs. You know,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: common Ground is great. They have that kind of pre
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Evan scholarship program out there. So there's a lot of
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: little hubs that are starting this. You know John's, you know,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: the Ashworths, the Goat Hill. You know. San Antonio has
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: an insanely good public golf system where the money stays
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: in the golf. They probably are the leaders in the country.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: A guy named Jim Rochik is heading that up and
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: we're going to use him as a consultant in Nashville
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: how to figure out how to do this without spending
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: a lot of money, but keeping the money in the golf.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Donalds fort Worth does a really good job too. It
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: seems like there are a few Texas megalopolis that are
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: that are kind of getting some of this right. At
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: the moment, and actually you know, a memorial park in
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Houston as well as for example, you know, hopefully an
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: indicator of where things are going there as well. Yeah,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: and these projects kind of require something different from an architect,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: which is what I'm interested in speaking with you about.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: And maybe as an example, we can dig into your
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: work at Miami Lakes specifically. Now, this is not a
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: municipal golf course. It is a privately owned public golf
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: course that has traditionally been affordable, especially for people in
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: the immediate area. And so you know, it's a kind
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: of project that we don't see a lot of these days.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: In fact, you know, the kind of mid range daily
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: fee course has sort of gone away in favor of
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: a lot more action at the high end for both
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: private clubs and public resorts. So Miami Lakes, just for context,
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: is a public course in Florida. It's about fifteen miles
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: north of Miami. And I've heard that the way you
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: became involved in this project has something to do with
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: the last time you and I talked on a podcast.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Actually it was a couple of years ago when I
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: brought you on to talk about Nashville, your work in Nashville,
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: among other things. So what is that story? How did
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: you become involved?
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: I get an email, blind email from Danny Martinez's part
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: of the grand family that basically they don't own Miami Lakes,
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: but they founded it. The grandfather founded that. You know,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: the community. It's a beautiful community, and they had a
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: golf course. And he heard the podcast you and I
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: talking about public Golf, so he blindly emailed me with
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: a pretty good letter that was quite compelling. I'm like,
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: you know, I'll give him a call, because I get
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: emails like this three four times a week. I go,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: I'll call him and chat them up and see if
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: I got him in the right direction. And three hours later,
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: he's telling me everything. You know. I was waiting for
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: him to tell me something so I could hang up,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: and he kept telling me all the right things. You know,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: public golf, the first tea program, his grandfather. You know,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: he grew up playing there. It's a part of the community,
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: kids played for free. You know. He was clicking all
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: the boxes. I'm like, oh, okay, I'll come down. I
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: was going to come down and play golf a timcqwan
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: and Jacksonville anyway, So I'm like, I'll just drive down
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: to the rest of the way, spend a day with you,
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: check your golf course out, and met the grand family.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: They're beautiful people, just humble and just everything clicked and
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: I walked the golf course. The routing was pretty good.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: The back nine was just inundated, flooded. They didn't even
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: have irrigation on a couple holes just because the water
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: table was two inches blowing to the surface. So I
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: kind of I'm like, you know, I think I could.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: I think I could fix this. Let me think about
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: it and let me build the team. So I called
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: him Mecure Golf out of Jacksonville, which I've worked over
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: a lot. Talk to them. They kind of fell in
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: love with the project. We were able to pick the
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: right irrigation designer, and I said, well, if I build
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: the right team, he let us do what we're good at.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: I'm interested and Danny supported us one hundred percent.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: So what were the the most important goals of the
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: plan for the renovation that you ended up coming up with.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: Well, it was a lot of engineering. It was dead flat,
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: you know, it was typical Florida dead flat. Any dirt
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: that they used, they build the greens up twenty feet
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: up out of the ground or putting mounds on each
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: side of the fairway. There was no contours in the fairway,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: so it was a drainage nightmare. In the back nine
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: really had to be lifted three feet out of three
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: to four feet out of the ground to keep it
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: from flooding. Every rain event, the water would back up
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: and wouldn't go into the canal and it would just fled.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: They couldn't play the back nine basically. So a lot
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: of it was engineering, but you know, it wasn't going
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: to stop me from making something cool at the same time.
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: So the basic thought was what I wanted to do
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: was build something it looked like it was built in
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: nineteen thirty, like Flynn or something back in those Florida
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: days when Flynn and Langford and those guys were building courses,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: you know, rainer at that time. I wanted to build
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: something to look like that, which meant it was wallawall grass. Yeah,
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: I'm kind of I'm kind of over the I call
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: it the native oars. Yeah, of course, you see now
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: it's get the sandy native stuff. You spend more time
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: in there than making the golf course good. So I said,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: we're going to just take that off the board, walda
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: wall grass, make it wide. You know. Luckily, your grandfather
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: when you routed that golf course gave us a really
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: wide corridor, so the house has never come into play.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: There's only houses on a few of the holes, so
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: it gave me ample room to play with it and
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: minimal number of bunkers, like fifty bunkers. I use them
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: judiciously where they really impacted a lot of t shots.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: Just create a lot of contour in the fairways to
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: create interesting lies on your you know, on your a
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: pro shots, build great greens. And the goal was, you know,
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: at one time, back in the sixties, seventies and eighties,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: that was the hip place to hang out Miamu Lakes
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: golf courses where all the dolphins lived. Shula's Steakhouse was
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: his first steakhouses there. He lived on site, so it
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: was kind of the happening place for public golf celebrities.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: You know. I brought in Kay Goldby to help me
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: build the greens. His dad had played in an event there. Kai,
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: I think caddied for him, So one time it was
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: the cool place in Miami. So we wanted to create
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: that vibe again. It's also the home of the first
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: tea program Kids Play for Free. Charlie Duluca runs that project.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: His grandfather started the project on a Saturday morning. They'll
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: have one hundred and eighty kids, some of special needs,
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: on that first on the putting greens. So we had
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: to build a facility for the kids. We also had
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: to build a facility to could hold up. We just
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: had a college tournament there. You know, it's still almost
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: seventy two hundred yards. Had a college tournament there. They
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: didn't rip it up. We want to have state amateur, vank,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: state pro events and create that vibe where people hang
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: out there again and it's happening, you know. You know
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: at any given day, Ray Allen Alonzo morning, Carlos Boozer,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: Tico Torres, I play golf with him. He's a drummer
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: from bod Jovi's hanging out there. They're all coming back.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: From the past right there. You know, it's a good guy.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: I just love him. But it's if Marino it's been
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: there playing, if the word is out and we have
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: an advertising and it's they still have to build the
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: clubhouse or building a big apartment, building a big teaching
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: facility with a restaurant in it, you know, the whole
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: the whole nine yards to service public golfers. You know,
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: they're still going to have they got one hundred and
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: fifty members. It's basically sold out. That just get preferred
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: tea times and we'll have a locker room for him
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: in the locker room in the new clubhouse. But it's
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: it's really turned back to it's the hit place to
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: hang out and play golf in you know, South Florida.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: So before giving into the cool design stuff that you
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: did with the course, which you outlined a little bit there,
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: I'm curious just about the drainage issue, which you've also
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: gestured toward. That was a that was like a big,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: big part of this project, right if people can imagine,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: I think it's it was, especially the back nine. It's
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: just full of full of lakes and you know, like
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: island fairways and just a lot of a lot of water.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: So could you give me just a few specifics on
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: how you how you figured out that that drainage issue there,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: because it it it's one of when if I were
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: looking at that course myself, you know, I'm not qualified
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: golf architect obviously, but if I were looking at the course,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: I would be saying to Danny Martinez, you're the person
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: you corresponded most with on this project. I would be
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: saying to him, I don't know if you can fix
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: this right. You might have to. You might have to
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: really do a lot here. So what what was your
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: approach to fixing the issue.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: I walked the front nine and there's just a couple
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: of lakes. It doesn't really feel like Florida. The front nine,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, this is really easy. The routy's good.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: And also they turned to the back nine and I'm like,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: oh shit, you know, and it was got on. You know,
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: it was just terrible lakes, a lot of force carries,
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: and I'm I don't like, you know, I remember playing
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: golf with Thomas Sunningdale and they have that one little
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: pond in London and Tom went over and spit in it.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: He goes, it's the first water feature ever in the
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: history of golf other than an ocean.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: This is where it all started. I'm like, that's sixth
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: hole to fifth or the sixth hole lap, and.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: That's how I've been. It's like, you know, I'm not
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: a big force carry over water, so I had to
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: fix it, you know, to make the design work and
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: make it something I would want to play. I filled
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: in a lot of the lakes so it's you know,
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: there's only a couple of really true carries over water
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: or they're on diagnosed kind of like the eighteenth of
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Sawgrass that the lake would be on the one side
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: or the other, but playing a room to void. So
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: I had to make sure I could do that first.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Then we had to figure out where we're going to
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: get the dirt. We had a budget of a million
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: dollars of sand being brought in. Luckily mccure Golf, Chris
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Moni and Andy the project manager, we figured out how
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: to do it by dredging the existing legs. Because the
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: existing lakes were only like two and three feet deep.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: They were just held water and that's why the water
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: came up. So we spent half of the project just
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: over there dredging, making them twenty thirty feet deep and
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: taking the dirt up, lifting a fairway, let it dry.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: And luckily it dried pretty good. And you know, we
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: we knew there was a there's a water level we
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: had to get above, which was the flood stage. So
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: we had to get out of that. So most, you know,
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: probably five of the fairways we lifted four feet and
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: I filled in all that. You know, the four the
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: terrible force carry. You know, you'd hit a driver seven
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: iron six irony into a green because he had a
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: lake in front of you. So I got I you know,
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: I just despise us some Uh. For the most part,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: I got rid of any force carry and reconfigured the
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: lakes so they'd be attractive and not wasn't a dominant
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: like a typical Florida golf course where you have a
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: lake on one side, you PLoP the dirt and houses
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: on the right or vice versa. So I said, I
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: didn't want I wanted to feel like old Florida, not
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: a housing development Florida. And that's how we did it.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: We lifted and we we we saved a million dollars
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: just by creating our own dirt. And then we had
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: to make sure that drain too, So we surface drain.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Make sure we surf surface drain. And then we put
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: a bunch of pipe. If we saw a wet area,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: we pounded a lot of pipe and down swales. I
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: was trying to get the water to swales so we
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: shaped the fairways just so they could function well drainage wise.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of how we did it, and then
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: put a whole new irrigation system and it's working right, It's.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: True, almost like a Pete Dye project. What are you're
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: talking about? You know, it's like dredging the lakes and
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: flipping it onto the fairways. And I mean it's that.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: You know, other architects have done this as well, but.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: Make Carrick's the best way to do it because they
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: do much of the works dives for exactly.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: That that was kind of the connection I was making. Right,
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: you're working with mccarec Golf Construction, and yeah, they know
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: that they.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: Get figured out and they did. Yeah, it was engineering Marvel.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: That's why I love you using mcures. Chris Money's you know,
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: used to work for Bobby Weed and uh, he's an
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: architect has road right, but he's kind of a big
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: project manager and he's smart as anybody I know in
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: the business. And we figured that out and it the
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: beauty is it worked, and uh, they don't have to
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: even in a big rain, they don't have to close.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: And that that was a big thing for these folks.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: We can't have closure. We got to get people out
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: and play. And it's very walkable, but you know it's floor.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: Do people take carts And you know, the hard part
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: was maneuvering the cart pass. When I had a lake
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: on the left and lake on the right, where do
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: I put it so I didn't want to see it
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: on my t shot, So that that was a lot
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: of work to figure that out. And then just make
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: sure the golf works. And you really don't notice the
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: lakes that much unless you duck hook one into one,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: but they're not. I make sure the design you didn't
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: need the lake to make the golf holes good. That's
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: why we concentrate on the greens and make sure they're
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: a great set of greens, and they are, They're really good,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: and then you have great golf.
• 31:42
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• 32:04
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• 32:07
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• 32:10
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• 32:14
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  Speaker 1: dash goolf dot com. Check it out. As you mentioned before,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: this is the course where a lot of beginners play.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: You're also hosting some tournaments, broad range of skill sets
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: skill levels coming to this course. So how do you
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: how do you think through you know, accommodating those beginning
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: players but also offering a challenge for you know, the
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: people who can golf their ball.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, mostly, you know, like I said, it was a
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: dead flat golf course. We had a length. There was
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: plenty of length, and we have a prevailing wind coming
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: off the ocean. Eventually it comes from the ocean, so
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: you know, longest holes are going into the wind for
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: the good players. I didn't have a lot of fairway bunkering,
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: but I have a lot of contours out there, ridge
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: lines I built. You know, I kind of built a
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: landscape and then knowing the golf course would go on it.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: So you know, out there at two eighty to three,
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of hanging lies or little rises that
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: that might kill a ball. You might have to kick
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: it over it. So I could take care of the
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: good players with their t shots by letting him hit free.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: But you know they might be have a funky lie.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: But your average player could just bunk the ball along.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: You know, it's wide open. It's it's almost impossible to
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: us a golf ball. And then you know it's all
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: about the green sites and the approaches and so the
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: greens are good. You know, I just can't you know,
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: I just came from Blue Mountain that fall, so I
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: had a lot of rainer in my brain. So there,
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: you know, there's some there's some influences there. But you
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: know I brought in Kai for a month and a
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: half and you know, I'd rough shape the green. I
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: kind of knew what I wanted, a rough shape the
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: green ahead of him, and then he got on it
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: made it, you know, ten times cooler, and we just
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: worked together and you know, open approaches, or we would
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: I'd tuck a bunker on the right where he could
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: tuck a pin in the open left side would be
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: open so people can bunp the route ball around, you know,
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: but there was plenty of places where every green was
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: I a would say it was accessible playable, but I
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: could certainly every green has three or four really tasty
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: whole locations that will get the good player. And it's
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: holding up really well. You know, we have a lot
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: of corn fairy qualifiers that play there, that want to
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: practice there. They love the greens, they love you know,
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: the challenge of the place. But you know we also
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: have you know, beginners, kids, special needs kids, you know,
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: five year olds out there playing golf and they can
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: have fun too, So it's it can be done. You
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: just gotta check your ego a little bit and understand
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: what really good golf is. And it's not a lot,
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: you know, like Augusta is what twenty some on bunkers.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: It's all about contours. So the greens are good. You know,
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: there's some heavy contours in them, but we made sure,
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: you know, Tim Sicico is the superintendent. It's doing a
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: great job. We intended these things not to be over
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: eleven at the most on a championship day and daily
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: is ten on the step meter. So we can hold
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: these contours. And it's you know, tight grass around everywhere.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: There's tons of fair away. We roll the t you
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: know fairway into the next tee. So if you're missing greens,
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: which most people are gone, you're chipping or putting or
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: something like that, so easy recovery. Mm hmm.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Well so, and then what's the approach to bunkering when
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: you're trying to build a course with this kind of
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: broad appeal. How do you think about that?
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm not gonna like say, I'm not gonnadum
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: me down. The bunkering bunker's really cool. It kind of
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: looks like Flynn, you know, flare it up. So we
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: you know, we use some bunker solutions to keep it in.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: But you know they're they're the bunkers I did build
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: are cool. They're in the all that you know, it's
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: like the right bunker in the right location. And you
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: don't need five of them, you just need one of them.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Or you know, there's one hole that I have a
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: bunch of bunkers. You know, I shot my water in
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: a couple holes. There's a couple of holes that don't
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: have bunkers at all, but they might be the hardest
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: ones because there's some really cool, tasty contours in the
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: approach and you know, knowing we're going to hit long.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: You know, like the fourth hole doesn't have a bunker
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: on it or green side bunker on it, because I
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: know everybody's going to be coming in it with a
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: three wood into it. So you know, you got to
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: be really accurate. So it's just being judicial. You know.
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: The bunkering is still good. It's really attractive. You know
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: I didn't. But they're all playable. You know, you can
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: get out of them. They're not they're not stupid deep
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: because it's Florida, it's not I don't have that much
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: elevation change. You know, some of the green side bunkers
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: are ape deep something like that, just because of the
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: green sites up that high. But they're you know, they're
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: all maintainable. We have a crew that comes in twice
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: a week, independent contracts that take care of them. These
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: guys are pros. They come in edge them, they know
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: how to edge them, they know how to mow them,
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: and they know how to maintain them. So you know,
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: they're they're maintainable, they're sustainable, and they're in great shape,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: and they're all in the right spot, and they're generally
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: in the right spot for really good players who want
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: to be aggressive.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: M Yeah, yeah, you know, it strikes me. We're on
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: the second day of the Masters right now as we're talking.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: This episode's coming out later. The formula is still kind
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: of the same, you know, and people always wonder what
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: can you do to build a course that can be
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: hard for professionals but but also fun for regular players
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: to play. Well. The model is kind of right there.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: There are probably a few things that you and I
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: both would would prefer to be different about Augusta National
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: or more similar to the original course of Augusta National,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: but still the the fundamentals are there. It's a lot
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: of short grass. It's you know, undulating greens where there
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: are some easy pin positions and some really tough pin positions,
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: and it's and it's minimal bunkering, but bunkering in the
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: right place. It you know, the things don't really change
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: that much.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: I guess no, you know, we know, you know they
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: have Golf architecture is nothing new. We're just copying the past.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: And but a lot of people aren't there, you know,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: they're copying the wrong things from the past. Or that's
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: why those dollars are going up. You know, it's a
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: lot of people are folk. You know. I think you
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: and I talked about Instagram architecture, and that's kind of
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: what it is. You know, all the new courses are
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: wow flash. But you know some of those Flora courses,
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: the first hurricane is gonna wipe some of that stuff out,
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: you know, all the sandy open stuff. You know, I
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: know from stream Song. You know, we we you know Bill,
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: when they were building them the Red Course and we
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: were building the uh you know, Blue course. We understood rain,
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: we understood what was going to happen, and we designed that.
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: You know, we built of that. So some of these
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: new courses going in. You know all about the flash
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: and that the beauty of it, but you know, Florida
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: is is pretty hostile when it comes to you know,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: keeping it. You know when you're gonna get especially when
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: they're talking about you know, last year was a dry,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: dry summer, so they didn't have the hurricane events. But
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: Super El Nino or I was talking about Florida might
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: get whacked this year bad. And some of these new
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: projects that are all open and exposed and tons of sand,
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna be I'm gonna be intrigued to see what
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: happens because you've got to think about that. You know,
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: part of you know what we're talking about sustainability, which
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: is a big buzzword that a lot of people are using.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: You you gotta you can build the coolest place in
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: the world, but you know, if the guys can't maintain it,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: it's unaffordable to maintain. It might not be maintainable because
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: Florida grows, you know, all this open sand might fill
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: in with vegetation unless you corner the market on round up.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: And these rain events, whether it's a hurricane or just
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: a typical five inch rain on a Tuesday afternoon. Sustainability
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: is building something that will hold up to that stuff
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: and understand that's going to happen. And I don't think
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: everybody's I'm interested to watch what happens with some of
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: these courses.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: Me too, And we'll get more into that in a second.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: But I want to tie a bow on Miami Lakes.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: Here.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: The total cost of the work that you did, at
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: least based on what I've seen. You can correct me
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, here was around twelve million.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: Can you give me a sense of how how that
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: spend was portioned out to different aspects of the project.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: And I asked this because you know, a lot of
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: people are curious, like what do you you know, what
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: do different projects cost? And what is the kind of
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: the least I could spend to get certain results? And
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: so what was that? What was that math at Miami Likes.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Believe me, that's a lot of money and the family
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: knows that, but they're comfortable because they're building apartment buildings
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: all the time. But a lot of it was irrigation.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: They needed a brand new irrigation system. So that was
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: five million bucks right there, okay, And we had to
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: build all the greens we had to lift the golf course.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Half of the golf course four feet out of the ground. Hell,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: I think Seminol's doing that. It's costing twenty thirty million dollars.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. That was what I was thinking of when
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: you're talking about dredging and lifting. It's you know, the
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: best course in Florida's doing that right now themselves, so
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: But they're bringing their they're bringing their sand in from
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: Orlando or something like that. So that's why it's costs
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: a lot. So, you know, we were it's a major renovation.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: What we did, and in twelve million is a lot
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: more money than I've ever spent anywhere. But it was built,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: you know, I guess we built them all in the
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: right spots. A lot of it was raising that dirt,
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: you know, lifting that golf course. A lot of it
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: was irrigation, a car pass, a million bucks for car pass,
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: ball the wall, it's Florida and it's all concrete. That
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: included the driving range, included a three hole short game facility,
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: a ten thousand square foot putting green, so they got
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: a lot, all new tea's. You know, it's basically a
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: brand new golf course. You know, it really is. It's
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: brand new. You wouldn't recognize it if you played it before,
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: So you know, it was hard to it was hard
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: to swallow that, but we did as best as we
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: could to keep the costs down for the family. You know,
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: they were the CEO goos. We're okay with twelve. We
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: just wanted to go to fourteen because we know how
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: practice go, and we kept it under twelve. You know,
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: we gave him a good bargain because we figured out
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: how to do it economically and how to do it,
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: build it smart golf course that's sustainable, and that also
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: includes some of the equipment we had to buy. You know,
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: that place was in shambles. He's got a new maintenance facility,
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: so a lot went in out of that twelve million,
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: you know, and it would surprises me some of these
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: you know, typical renovations at these private clubs now at
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: twenty million bucks, and how we did twice as much
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: work there compared to what they do at some of
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: these other places. So you know, that's kind of how
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: it goes. Most of my most of my renovations are
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: two million or less. Yeah, we had we had to rebuild,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: you know, we had to a lot of was engineering,
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: you know, permitting things like that, you know, tree planting.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: We we took a lot of trees off of that property,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: like a lot of trees, and then we had to
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: plant a lot back with the city Organs. So that
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: costs a lot of money. So there's a lot of
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: incidentals outside, you know, the golf itself. I probably Irrigation
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: probably spent less than four million on the actual golf
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: course Tea to green.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: One of the questions I had in mind is what
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: would the four million dollar version of this proce have
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: looked like? And it sounds like that would have been
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: the golf course work, but you wouldn't have been able
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: to do all the kind of infrastructural work that you
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: needed to do in order to do the golf course
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: work in the first place.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and then that's that's why it blewed up.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: But we had to make it work. But we also,
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: you know, we built a big giant driving range and
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: we got you know, beautiful short game that's like four
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: greens over there for the kids to play on. Built
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: a huge you know, putting green. So there's a lot
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: that went into that. But you know, that's why I
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: was pretty proud of that we still kept the actual
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: golf component reasonable, right, you know, compared to most other projects.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Well, every project is different, and when I talk about
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: twelve million, I'm not coming from a place of critique.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: There.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: I understand what what you did there and what that
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: usually costs. And so when we talk about economy of construction,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: a project like this, I think fits that bill. You know,
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: to the extent that I know anything about about how
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: money was spent on the project or what decision were made,
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: which you know, as an outside observer you can never
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: really know all the details of that. My impression is
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: that that less was spent on this work than is
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: usually spent on projects of this type. The numbers I
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: usually see for projects of this kind where kind of
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: big things need to be done to the corridors, not
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: just the greens, where irrigation needs to be replaced, where
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: a driving range is being built, where the golf course
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: is truly being overhauled. The numbers I'm used to seeing
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: in the twenty twenties for those projects. And this is
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: the twenty twenties. This is not the twenty tens or before.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: This is these are specific circumstances in the era that
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: we're living in, those numbers are usually in the twenty
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: to thirty million dollar range. That's what That's what I
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: usually see, and so this is lower than that, And
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: so it makes me curious, like, what what do you
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: think were the main areas where you were able to
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: save and practice economy of construction in this project.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: It's not bloating everything, you know, it's not billy bunkers
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: every you know, bunkers can cost ridiculous if you put
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: too much liners in it, drainage all that. I don't know,
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: you know, it's just you know, i'd last fall I
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: did Westmoreland Country Club in Chicago. It's all of Willie
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: Watson Course. It kind of lost its way and had
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: a couple of bad projects, so I was fixing it.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: We all new greens, probably one hundred and some odd bunkers,
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: all new te's, all new fairways, all new irrigation system
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: seven million dollars, and the irrigation was four and a
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: half of it. So it's still none of three million
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: dollars of golf where they had brand new greens, all
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: new bunkers with Billy bunkers in them, all new te'es
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: all new fairways and that's what the golf costs. So
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: you know, that's all I know how to do. So
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: hearing the twenty million dollars, I don't know where that
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: money is spent. To be honest with you, I'm like, wow,
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know where that money goes. I'm glad of
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: what you know, but a lot of clubs are doing that.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm kicking a lot of clubs of the
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: curb because they're like, well, how come you know we
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: only spent one point seven million and the other course
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: spent twenty What would we do wrong? I'm like, well,
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: you know, it's we're smarter than they are, and that's
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: a lot of money in your pocket. But you know,
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: I get I get moved on because they're buying the
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: grift of this twenty million dollar projects. So I don't
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: know where we saved the money compared to those guys,
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: because all I know is I hear the big numbers.
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: But all I know is, you know, like in the
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: Chicago area, there's a couple near Westmoreland that you know
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: are going to do a fraction what we do, and
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: they're going to spend more than what we did. Moving greens.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: We you know, we didn't move any greens around. We
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: you know, it's like it in Miami. I built you know,
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: we I kept the existing green pads for the most sake.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: I re routed three holes, but that you know, they
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: were twenty feet high, and they gave me their I
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: could drop a ten feet and use that dirt and
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: put it out in the fairway. So a lot of
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: the economy was just shaping. Shaping is pretty cheap, you know,
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: pushing that dirt around. We weren't hauling dirt around that much,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: but we were pushing it around. So that's that's how
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: you can save a lot of money just by smart shaping. Yeah,
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: and good shapers too, you know, ky I was there.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: I was shaping all the bunkers and doing some of
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: the fairy work. And mc kerrick's got some really good
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: shapers on board that we're working the fairways and the t's,
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: so that's a big savings. You know. Tom always said, well,
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: making changes in the field while it's being shaped is
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: really economical because it's just actually a couple hours. But
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: if architect, famous architect comes in, the greens built in
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: grass and irrigating goes oh, I actually went at thirty
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: feet over there, you're dropping a bottom, you're moving that
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: green over. That's how prices get up. And it also
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: helps that I'm there every day, you know, that's I'm
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: one of the economies of me how I work, which
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: I enjoy working, is being there every day, showing up
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: at seven with the crew, getting everybody in line, going up,
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: building some bunkers or some greens. But it's basically I'm
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: making the decision instantly that's approved, so they're not waiting
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: for architect B to show up every two weeks either
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: compromising it, approve it, or move it. Oh that's not
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: what I was thinking. I know what I'm thinking because
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: I just built it. So that saves a lot. You'd
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: be surprised how much money that saves. Typically ten to
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: fifteen percent of a project is saved by me being
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: there on site because they don't have the budget waiting
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: for Joe Famous to show up and go, you know,
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: drop a bomb on something. You just build right. Well,
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: there's an economy of that, and that's just built in
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: how I work.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, things don't have the chance to snowball in a
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: direction that you didn't want them to go because you're
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: there and you know instantly if it's going in the wrong.
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: And I had Kai there and we you know, we
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: were We worked from a month and a half straight.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: We had to get these greens done because he had
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: to get back to Montana and workous project. Yeah, shut up,
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: he shut up January second and hesing a bulldozer for
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: thirty five straight days, you know, trying to bang out
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: nineteen greens as fast as we could. And I had
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: to get ahead of them. I had to get a
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: bulldozer ahead of them because I had to set it
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: up and knock these greens down and let that, you know,
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: let him do his thing. And that saves a lot
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: of money, just because we were fast. You know, Andy, Andy,
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: their project manager. I love him because he does the
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: big dirt projects and he puts the pedal to the metal,
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: and I'm the same way. We kept thinking, all right,
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: it's Florida. January and February really nice in Florida. But
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: april's when the oven starts going on. And we're a
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: couple of Northern boys, and we kept going, we're gonna
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: get out of here by April. Sometimes because I don't,
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: I'll boil. And we did we you know it was
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: it's the economy of speed is really good too, and
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: that Mkurric had that built in because they could get
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: in and out of there also, so there was inherent economies.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: But compared to the twenty million dollars stuff, I don't
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: know where they spend their money.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: Yes, with you, it's it's a mystery to me as well.
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: But it's good to have the information that you just
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: gave because you know, listeners, especially listeners who are maybe
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: involved in a golf course project right now, can can
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: take that and say, Okay, this is this is kind
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: of where these different aspects of a project should sit economically,
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: and you know, and then and then you can start
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: to ask questions about when when budgets go over that
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: and this is I mean, listen, these might sound like
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: nosy questions that I'm asking, or like I'm inviting people
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: to to ask rude questions, but the fact is that
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: all of these decisions end up affecting the amount that
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: a player play at pays to play the course. It
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: ends up affecting the affordability of the facility. And if
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: that's the biggest issue right now that we're facing in
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: golf course construction and in golf in general, is the
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: affordability component. Then this is where we have to start.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: We have to start by by looking closely at the
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: at the budgets that these projects are are taking on.
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've had like elkrap Is all nine holer,
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: buy me up here. It's an old ross course that
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: he was never there, gave him the drawings. It's the
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: coolest little it's almost like a Scottish community. It's the
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: home course. Everybody plays it. We read a bill a
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: bunch of t's and all the bunkers for our budget
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: was one hundred and fifty thousand dollars including me. And
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: it's the coolest place, you know. You know, Percy Warner
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: was one point seven included irrigation Shelby in Nashville's two million.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: A lot of it is just fix it what it
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: needs to be fixed. Don't don't build this giant memorial
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: to you and your fundraisers. It's public golf. They're just
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: happy with grass half the time, you know. And if
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: there's cool design, that's cool too. But you know, I
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: grew up playing public golf course. We're just we're banging
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: the ball and we're just happy. To have grass. So
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: a lot of these projects get overblown because you know,
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: a bunch of rich people are the donors, and they're
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: you know, they play out of wherever, and they you know,
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: it's aren't we great, We're doing this for public golf.
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: But then you know, you go in the parking lot
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: and there's nothing but Porsches and Mercedes and BMW's because
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: they're the ones that can afford to play there, because
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: you had to get the price. So you know, sustainable, maintainable,
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: accessible golf also has to be cheap, you know, to play.
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: And there's some of these projects, you know, either there
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: be funded to keep the prices down, but you know,
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: some of these thirty million dollars renovations, who are they serving?
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: Are they really serving the people that play at And
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: that's the thing that I'm concerned about that some of
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: these bloated budgets are great now because we do have
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: a lot of paper millionaires, you know, since twenty ten
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: Spot markets doing that, so there's a lot of people
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: new to the game that have flush with cash. There's
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: you know out and you too. My son lived in
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: Utah for a while and they say, you know, the
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: billionaires and moving the millionaires out now to Park City,
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: you know, so there's a lot of money out there,
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: so they just think it's money's easy to come by.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: But you know, I've been through a few recessions and
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: gas lines and stuff like that, and Help two thousand
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: and eight basically took a dump on the golf business.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: And so the people coming into power, everything's rosy. You know,
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: there's no there's no war going on there. You know,
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: gas prices are fine, but there's a reality, you know,
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: the public golfers are paying those kind of gas prices,
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: So there's there's a reality of it. And I think
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: some of these projects are in Lalla Land and will
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: happen if we have a you know, economic downturn, which
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: historically we were due. What's going to happen to some
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: of these giant projects. And you know, there's gonna be
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: a lot of places either closing or sold pennies on
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: the dollar.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of clubs that are
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: that have a lot of debt right now. That's that's
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: when it becomes unwise to be because you know, there's
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: one thing with these destination clubs that are that are
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: funded by some billionaire who just wants a cool club
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: out in the middle of nowhere, where where he or
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: she and his or her buddies might go to play
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: golf away from it all. You know, those those aren't
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: those A lot of those clubs are not deeply in debt, right,
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: those clubs aren't over leveraged. You know, if a recession comes,
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: then then those ones aren't going to be the first
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: to go. The first to go are the clubs that
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: have have taken on a lot of debt in order
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: to do these extravagant renovation projects. And those are the ones.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty worried about it. It seems like you are.
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: I work on a few of them. Luckily, most of
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: my clients. You know. I redid Blue Mount great rainer course.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: We did that two years ago, and we did it
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: for less than two million dollars. You know. It's a
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: good wise club. They're smart people. It's a rainer course.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: You don't have to drop Obama. You know. We didn't
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: have to rebuild the grains. The grass is great. You know.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: We just redid the bunkering and did a bunch of
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: teas and some treework. But we kept it tight and
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: they're very They're comfortable in their skin and they are
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: going to survive. But you know, the neighbored course that's
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: trying to keep up with the Jones is too much
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: drop thirty million and can't balance their budget, you know,
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: but that's what they thought was the right thing to do.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: And I've had a couple of clubs this year but
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: really broke, you know, old, old established clubs just broke
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: my heart, like, oh, we're going to go in a
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: different direction. You know, I've been working there forever, and
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: they hired the latest, greatest young architects to give great
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: presentations with graphic artists and all that shit, and they're
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: going to drop a bomb on it. And that's not
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: what the old club was. You know. It's the newer
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: money that taking over that think they need to do that.
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: You know, the elders, aren't you I've worked at clubs
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: for so long. My elders when I was in my
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: thirties were in their sixties and now I'm a few older,
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: and they're they're dying off or getting out a push
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: out of power. So it's the new money kind of
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: coming into power, and they just think that's what they
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: need to do. And I still have some you know,
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: I was at Blue Mountain last week. I have to
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: go to Essex County Club and the next month I
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: still got pipe and Rock to go to. It's I
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: got some great clubs that haven't fallen for the ruse
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: of you got to do that. And like you know,
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: they are kind of Yankee cheap, which is good. You
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: know they've been that way forever.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: And yeah, that's that's Essex for you. I mean, yeah,
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: and it's wonderful. Like it's i mean, the best renovation
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: maybe in this era. And and it's taken a long time.
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: And you know, I've talked to the superintendent there a lot,
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: Eric Diricherson and and and he and you know, part
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: of the story is him and his collaboration with you.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: But it's also you know, the way he puts it,
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: the club members wouldn't wouldn't want the big project. They
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: would they would say, no way, we're paying for that,
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: and we don't want to close down our golf course.
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: Well that's a good circumstance for that club because they've
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: they've gotten the work that they've gotten, uh, in the
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: proper way.
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: And I'm lucky, you know, my resume is full of
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: those kind of clubs, but you know, some are going
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: by the wayside, some are falling for it, and it's
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: just like just breaks my heart. I'm like, damn, you know,
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: if we spent all this time not spending money, Nelson,
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: you're going to spend this much money, somebody's gonna make
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: all this money. But you know, that's my legacy, and
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: that's why I'm pretty proud of the work I've done
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: and responsibly doing it because it is it's still just golf.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: It's still just a game. You know, where do we
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: keeping up with the Joneses too much? I've said this before.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 2: I always try to keep the I always create the
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: mantra we are the Joneses. You know, people are gonna,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: i know, Westmoreland, they're pretty proud that we only spent
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: that much money because the neighborhood clubs are all doing
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: the big stuff and they're asking, how did you do that?
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: And it's really good, you know, it's really well done.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: It's a cool club and they're proud, you know, like, yeah,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: like you guys are the dummies spending twenty million. You know,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: we get to pocket this, you know, we don't have
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: to spend this much money.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: Right this episode of designing golf is also brought to
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: you by the Golf Course Superintendent's Association of America. Specifically,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: I want to tell you about something that GCSAA is
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: doing very soon called Rounds for Research. Rounds for Research
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: is a national online auction where golfers can bid on
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: rounds at exclusive courses across the country and the world
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: in support of GCSAA. The auction goes live on April
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: twentieth and runs through Friday, April twenty sixth. Golfers can
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: bid on private, highly rated, excellent courses at a great value.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: There are stay in plays at Pinehurst Number two available,
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: also French Lick, a beachside forsome at Nanea golf club
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• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: rounds at iconic spots like TPC, Sawgrass and Aaron Hills.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: Also make sure to check out the bidding on a
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: foursome at Palmetto Golf Club in Aiken, South Carolina, one
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: of my favorite places. Proceeds from Rounds for Research support
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: golf course superintendents, research advocacy and education that keeps the
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: game play and sustainable. Every bid benefits the GCSAA Foundation's
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: work which is supporting golf's future from the ground up.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: So visit Rounds for research dot com. The four is
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: the number four, So that's Rounds number four research dot
• 1:02:18
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• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: All right, let's get back to the episode. Yeah, and
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: those those that benefit will reveal itself more and more
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: over time as well. And that's how people got to
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: think about it. It's a long term thing. It's not
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: just instant gratification.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm doing Belvedere in twenty seven. We're finally going
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: to do the bunches of Belvidere.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: Wonderful course in Michigan that people should should know more.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: Abouts is a club but has long been accessible as
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: well to the to the public golfer at an affordable rate.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: Yep. Great other than Crystal Downs, it's a great old
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: club up here by far almost equal equal set of
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: greens too. And it's always been a summer club. They're
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: members of Camargo Bellery you know, all over the place.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: So there's it's a hitting club, but it's always been
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: a summer club. And I'm like, there's just simple oval bunkers,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: but the greens in the content, it's Augusta. Basically, the
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: greens are insanely cool. The ground contours are great. It's
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: just a great study. I've sent so many architectures sort
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: of the green sits there. It's just phenomenal. It didn't
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: need fancy bunkers. They just had these simple ovals that
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: were done and back in the sixties, even though the
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: course is built in the twenties. But we do have
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: pictures of the old bunkers and it was kind of
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: like Billy Bell looking stuff. You know, Watson worked with
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: Bell a lot. It almost like Billy Bell built these bunkers,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: so they were really freely la country club looking, but
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: they'd rounded off because it's a summer club. They didn't
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: want to spend any money. And I was perfectly fine
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: with it as long as the routing was good. The
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 2: greens were great, and I got all the mowing right
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: place is perfect. Now they're you know, they got so
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: much notoriety through you guys and everybody else. It's it's
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: one of the hot stops when you come to northern Michigan.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: You play Kingsley High Point, you try to get into
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: the downs Forest dunes and you try to get in
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 2: Velvet there because it is the old kind of Scottish model.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: There's it's privately owned, but it's a lot of the
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: a lot of money's paid by the outside public and
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: allowed to play. But now that they're charging so much
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: to the outside play, they said, well maybe we should
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: think about finally doing the bunkering. So but you know,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: my budget is less than a million and a half
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: to do the bunkering because we're gonna we're gonna get cure.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: It's gonna do it with me and I'm gonna shape it.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: I'm I live right here, so it doesn't that, you know.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: And there it was hard squeezing that kind of money
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: out of that old club because it's a summer club.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: But we finally are doing it, and we're doing it responsibly. It's,
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: you know, not doing anything more than needs to be
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: done to make a good golf. And that's kind of
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: the mantra of public golf. Don't don't fix, fix what
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: needs to get fixed, and check your ego and try
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 2: not to make a statement. Just make a good golf.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: And that's how this relates to public golf. What we're
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: talking about here, all these clubs doing the big projects
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: because they have this new wave of members coming in
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: who want to who want to spend that money and
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: want to see those results. Okay, that's that's great for
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: certain clubs, especially clubs the host championships. You know, there
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: are there are a number of championship focused renovations that
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: cost a lot of money, where where I kind of
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: understand why that's happening, because you're going to get the
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: return of that championship, and that's going to come back
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: to the club, you know, maybe not financially, but culturally,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: and it's part of the purpose of the club to
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: keep up with the Joneses, to use your phrase. But
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: when you start to apply that ethic to public courses
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: that are meant to be affordable, that's when the problems begin.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: And part of the issue is that some of the
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: same people who are funding these extravagant renovations at private
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: clubs are also the ones who are backing the overhaul
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: of the local public course. And that is great, that
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: is very generous of them. What a wonderful thing to do.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: Thank you for giving back to the game. I mean,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: you know, absolutely do that. But the problems start when
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: you when you apply the taste that you've developed from
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: your club's extravagant renovation. When you apply that taste and
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: that set of expectations to a public course, it doesn't
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: translate very well. We have to develop a different kind
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: of taste for different courses. Some courses, yeah, go for
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: the extravagant bunkering, the the the you know, spectacular if
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: a little bit in pre tactical features that that you
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: find on some courses. But when you're trying to build
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: a course that is, uh, that is going to be
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: affordable and sustainable for the long term, then that kind
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: of photogenic approach to golf architecture isn't going to work
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: as well. We have to develop a different taste for
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: understated elegance, right, we have to. We have to bring
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: back elegance somehow, and I'm not sure how we do that,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: and I I think we've gone pretty far in the
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: other direction. But we have to somehow or another convince
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: people to love elegance and simplicity and uh, you know
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: minimalism m h as much as they they love the
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: flashy stuff.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 2: And I think it's it's the hard part for me
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: is it's usually you know what we're struggling in Nashville
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: because Ted Rohads. Ted Roads Golf Course the next one
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: we're trying to get to and Jim Nantz is involved.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: We've had the tour represents from the tour, we got
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: backing from you and bigger places than the tour in
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: this because it's you know, home of Ted Rhads. You know,
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: it's it's serving the community there in Nashville. But you know,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: we're struggling with the municipalities that you know, they struggle
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: bureaucratic red tape and middle management bloat and entitlement, so
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: they're hard to do. But you know those are they're
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: all easy because we're not. We're not servicing you know,
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: Percy Warner. It was mostly Bell Mead and people that
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: we're supporting that because they walk the park and and
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: they also play it, which is kind of cool Ted Rhodes.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: You know, we're not We're probably gonna have to have
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: corporate money to help support that. You know, there's no
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: money in the community, so it's you know, you gotta
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 2: you know, to build that, to fix that golf course
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: by minimal everybody's gonna love it because it's more playable,
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: not because it's high end and this flashy bunkering and
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: stuff like that. It's you know, so I think the
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: public golf courses in the city courses, you don't have
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: to play kates to the the rich donors because they're
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: not going to play it anyways. You know, You're just
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: you know, I think that's my mantra there is, like, well,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: they're not going to play it, so I'm just going
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: to build it for the people that actually play it.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: You know. Thankfully they're supporting us, you know, Percy, I
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: had to. We had to make it kind of cool
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: because you know, there's a Donald Ross Coast just down
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: the road and these people are there. But Shelby was
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: the East Nashville. Now there's at least played golf course
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: in the rotation. We got two million dollars from the mayor.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: I fixed all the greens and let them play. And
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: people love it because there's no fancy people over there
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: playing golf off. You know. So it's it can be done,
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: and it just depends on the neighborhood. Like all the
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: CD of Detroit, Rackham and stuff like that. You know.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: We I worked there for a little bit, but we
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: had you know, we had American golfers putting the money
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: into it, you know, Kemper or something like that, putting
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: money into it where these high profile things. The park
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: is a great example, you know, Paul Beach. It is
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: done for all the right reasons. Forty to fifty million dollars.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: Dirk Ziff and all those seminal members put all their
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: money and they like hanging out down there because it's
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: kind of a nightclub at night. Yeah, but you go there,
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: you know, and a gilded you know, they brought in
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: gill which is going to be a high end product.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: They built something phenomenal. The only issue I have with
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: that place is you go to the parking lot. I
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: went there to check it out. It was really cool.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: It's really expensive to play on a weekends, three hundred
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: and sixty bucks for you know, an outsider to play it.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: And all the all the cars in the parking lot
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: were German cars unless they were Tessela's and it just
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: becomes a bro hangout. And that's kind of what the
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: park is turned and it wasn't intended to be that.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: I know a lot of the donors they're giving back
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: to the game and the local people play. There's not
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: that many local people playing that golf course. When you
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: go in the parking lot and you're you know, I
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: had my round car stuck out like a sore thumb
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: because there's nothing but Porsches and benzes and BMW's sitting there.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: And you go to the first te and it's just
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: a bunch of flat bellies with white belts. You know,
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: who made their money financial money by noon, the day traders,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: and that's kind of who's hanging out there. And it's
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: super cool, but I just don't know if it's serving
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: its intent and is it sustainable. It's it's a high
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: end gill project. It's really cool. You did a great,
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: great job. It's more like a private country club job
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: than like you say, a public golf course. It's sustainable.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: M Yeah, and you know maybe that's good for that
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: place too, even but is it a model No? Yeah,
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: and that's that's where we have to do some searching.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, same of you know Mike and Will's project.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: You know, the Americans trust or links trust, they have
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: their heart in the right spot. Obviously Trump is crapping
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: all over it and muscling them out. But the original
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: intent they were going to spend a lot of money
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: on each golf courses, Like why don't you just fix it?
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: You know, there's just public golfers there. But they get
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: you know, they brought all the high end guys and
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: they're going to be twenty million dollar projects, and that's
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: really hard to raise that kind of money and then
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: make it sustainable at the same time. You know, I
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: don't know if their model was great. You know, they
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: had a lot of famous people throwing money at that,
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: and they've done a great job, you know, Mike and Will,
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: their hearts are in the right spot. I just I'd
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: always like, man, you're just spending too much money. You know,
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: you get you actually have to get out there and
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: do it. You know, I'm lucky I've been. I have
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: four five public projects that work because we didn't spend
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: that much money. I mean, like the natural projects, we
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: always said we're going to cap it at two million.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: I can fix a golf course what needs to be
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: fixed for maybe two million bucks. And and that's why
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 2: I think that's what these projects have to be. They
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: have to be less ego, less frill. Who you really
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: serving the public golfer they're just fine, just got on
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: banging the ball. You know, they want they want to
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: put a peg in the ground, there's grass there. They
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: want to put on a green that's full of grass,
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: not dirt. After that, it's pretty fun. You know. It's
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: all good. So I think it's you say it is education,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: but it's also leading by example. And we're quietly in
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: Nashville and San Antonio. We're doing it out there. We're
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: just not getting a lot of ink about it. You know,
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: the big fancy projects are getting all the ink Cops
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: Creek and stuff like that. Rightfully, so because we're spending
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: a lot of money, the park got a lot of ink.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 2: But we're quietly doing this one golf course at the time,
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: and it's it's very doable around the country. You just
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: have to have the right mindset.
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: Well, I want to end this on a positive note
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: for what people how people might apply some of the
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: stuff that you're talking about here. I know that every
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: individual golf course is different, but when you look at
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: public golf courses in general, what are like a few
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: low cost things that most any course could do to
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: get better?
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: I look, you know I could. I always say I
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: could go to any muni and you know, check my
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: ego at the door and go how do I make
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: this better? A lot of it's just mowing. Get the
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: mowing lines, get the ferries out white a little bit wider,
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: make it more playable, get the greens good. And to
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: manage the trees. You know, there's there's a lot of
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: them are been mismanageder they never hit architects before. And
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: oh we're gonna we're gonna put a new car path
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: system and the freaking car paths going down the mellow
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: the fairway, you know, get it out of the way.
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 2: Or are they playing a bunch of trees that really
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: affected the golf. But that's a lot of low hanging
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: fruit trees and mowing is pretty cheap, and that fixes
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 2: most golf courses. You get the trees back out, the
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 2: grass grows better. But it's you know, fix what you
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 2: actually play golf on. Have some good teas that aren't dirt,
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 2: have some grains that aren't dirt, and after that everything's
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 2: gravy basically, and that that doesn't cost a lot of money.
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: You can go to any golf course, you know, and
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: you know, look at the bunkers. Are they maintained the bunkers, well,
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: you know a lot of them, they're they're just not
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: even maintaining they're just you know, that's the one thing
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: we're having a problem at Miami Lakes. These public golfers
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: don't fix ball marks and they don't rake their damn bunkers,
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: you know. So we're trying to create this culture raak
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: the bunkers please, you know, fix your ball marks. And
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: they're getting better at it. But you know, the general
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: public isn't not that sophisticated. They're just out and cutoffs
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: and a T shirt and a six pack of beer
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: and having fun. And that's it's part of the game.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: So don't you don't have to give them the country
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: club setting. Just give them something playable. But I think
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: you know that those are the things you can do
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: really cheap. It doesn't cost a lot of money. It's
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: just something, you know, it's just having the brain power
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: to do it, having somebody with an eye to look
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: at and like, oh, yeah, I could fix this. There's
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: some cool there's a cool little nine holer up by
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 2: a Northport Point club, old private club, old Bendolo, and
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: I just mowed the heck out of it and it
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: is so much fun. You know, there's simple little Bendolo greens.
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: But I rebuild all the bunkers. There's a handful of bunkers,
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 2: but most of it was just mowing shore grass everywhere
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: and the ball just rolls. It's just basically Scotland, you know.
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: There's not that many bunkers over there. It's all mowing
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: and contours and that doesn't cost a lot of money
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: to fix.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you can do a lot, I think, just
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: by making a golf course more functional. If if that's
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: the focus first, then you earn the trust of the
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: golfers because everybody appreciates a functional golf course. Everybody appreciates
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: a golf course where the turf is decent throughout and
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: and it's pretty simple. But if you start with that,
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: then maybe you can start to do some more interesting
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: things with the architecture. But you have to lead with
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: making the golf course functional, because if you can't do that,
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: then again you're not going to earn the trust of
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: the golfers.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: No, yeah, I always laugh. I was, you know, I've
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: been doing this long enough. I know a bit about agrondo. Mute,
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: I said, I see in my lane. My simple agronomy
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: is grass good, dirt bad. And I really care what
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: kind of grass as long as it's grass. I got
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 2: my ball sitting there. Most people don't know ben grass
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: from bermuda, from dry from anything. As long as you
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: have grass, get rid of the dirt. You play gronk
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: play golf on grass. So focus on that, which is drainage,
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: which is simple, just figuring it out. How do you
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: how do you get the best terf we can? You know,
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: just coverage doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be perfect
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: bank grass you go to I just laugh whenever. You know,
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: we were building the Renaissance Club over in Scotland on
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: Sundays ago to Saint Andrews and Walkett because it was
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: it's public golf course. Dogs and I take a ball,
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 2: roll around. You look at the fairways, you look down
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: at the fairies. I'm my good god. You know it's
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: a root mat. Basically, it's not even turf. It's just
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: this perfect surface that's a root mat of all kinds
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: of hodgepodgs of grasses. And that's what makes it such
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 2: a great playable surface and maintainable.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, survival of the fittest with agronomy there is just
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: like whatever.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: They have irrigation only to keep it so the grass
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: doesn't dye, not to grow grass. Yeah, and you know,
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: we come over here in America and we have to
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: have these pure mono stands of grass, and you know,
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: darwin logic defeats all that, you know, and you know,
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: a pure standard grass just doesn't survive over time or
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: you have to spend a lot of money to keep
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: it pure. And you know, we go overseas and play
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: golf and we there's one set of teas and you
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 2: play from a rock as the guy tells you to
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: play it, and you're more unhappy and it's six sixty
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: one hundred yards. You come back to America, you want
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: a perfect live, perfect greens and ten sets of teas.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: So somehow it's you know, and I don't know if
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 2: it's an economic hiccup that we have that brings us
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: back to sustainability of what turf really needs to be
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: and what is essential for good golf. I think, like
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: you said, it's the train is running away pretty hard
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: that this, you know, this perceived thought of what good
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: golf is pure stand of grass and perfect bunkers, perf
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: fricked everything, and that's just that nature and that's not
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: what golf is supposed to be, and.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: It's not always the most functional either. You know, it's
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: kind of like, uh, I don't know how you how
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: you feel about dogs or dog ownership. But the dogs
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: that I like the most are are are the mutts.
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: You know, the ones that uh, you know, they just
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: came out of a cardboard box next to the grocery
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: store entrance, and and they've got all sorts of things
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: going on, and their their genealogy and and they tend
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: to be really sturdy, cool dogs. But when you start
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: messing around with the pure breeds.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: How many how many Irish shedters do you see nowadays? Right?
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they were like well fragile seventies.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: They were the most popular that they got inbred so
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: much they disappeared. Cocker spaniels. You don't see right, Chester
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: was in here with me. He just took off, But yeah,
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: I heard them. I'm a big dog guy. I like
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: dogs on golf courses. I love going overseas and seeing
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: a pile of dogs and front porch with a you know,
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: they're an essentral part of the game, and I love
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: them when they're Superintendent's have dogs I have on my phone.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: I have a I have at least fifty or sixty
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: golf dogs and they're generally mutts. Yeah, that work best
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: on golf courses and everybody loves them. And I was
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 2: at Blue Mountain Moose there is great I know all
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 2: the dogs' names, and uh I hang out with them
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: and they're a central part of the game. But that's
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: the same thing. It's like, too too much purity is
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: for the west Manaster show, not for not for a pet.
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah right, How many of those are real pats?
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not many, and they're and they're a little that
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: can be hard to keep up.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: So I main you know, that's the problem. It's it's
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: it's high maintenance. And that's part of the sustainability, the
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: we'd sustainability. It's overused. It has to be maintainable at
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: a reasonable pace. You know. That's the one thing you
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: were talking about. You know, some of these super high
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: in private one owner obs. The kids don't have the
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: same passion as dad, and so when dad passes away,
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: what's going to happen to that really high end one
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: hundred million dollar golf course. Kids are going to sell
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: it or and move it on. You know, rarely do
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: the kids have the same passion as the dad. You know,
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: we all have our own passions. But you know, so
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: that'll be interesting to happen to those you know, the
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: grand there they're recession proof, but they're not inheritance proof
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 2: that way.
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as soon as as soon as you lose interest,
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: then then it goes.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: I got a couple of you know, I got a
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: couple of clubs that where are those you know, real
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: private one owner and they're really worried about the legacy.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 2: You know, they're starting to set up endowments because they
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: know when when they pass, who's going to take over
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: and what are they going to do? What my passion
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 2: was because they obviously live somewhere else. So I have
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: a couple of clients that are concerned about that. We've
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: had those discussions how do we how do we carry
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: this legacy on of these real high end products, and
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: it'll be an issue. We'll see what happens.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: It's the kind of thinking that more people in golf
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: should engage in because golf courses will outlive us, and
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: so we got to think about how we can how
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: we can cause them to do that in the best
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: way possible. And some of these principles that we've talked
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 1: about in the past hour or so Bruce, I think
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: uh start to get us toward that. So thank you
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: for thank you for coming on the coming on the
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: pod again. Always a pleasure to talk to you, and
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: good luck with your with your golf game and then
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: beyond that the next projects that you've got.
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: All right, Thanks man, good talking to you.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: This episode of Designing Golf was produced by Will Balsam.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you Will. If you've been enjoying designing Golf, enjoying
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: some of these explorations and certain topics in golf architecture,
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: I can just about guarantee that you would love what
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  Speaker 1: we're doing in Frida Egg Golf Club. Go to the
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: Frida Egg dot com slash membership to see everything you
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: get with your membership. But one thing I'd like to
• 1:24:21
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• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: where there's a lot of interesting discussion going on in
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• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: to be, great place to just post random thoughts that
• 1:24:39
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• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: and there are people there to discuss it with you.
• 1:24:46
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• 1:24:50
  Speaker 1: Golf Club. Some people are calling it the hottest club
• 1:24:53
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• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: out yourself, all right, Thank you for listening, and we'll
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: be back again soon with another episode.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: M