Latest / WHAT I'VE LEARNT / What I've Learnt - Jonah Platt (December 2025)

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What I've Learnt - Jonah Platt (December 2025) · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Jonah Platt, one of the leading Jewish advocates and speakers globally, and host of the award-winning podcast Being Jewish with Jonah Platt, we had a deep dive interview last month.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: Never dreaming this carnage at Bondi Beach would happen, yet both knowing that lurking behind every anti-Semitic post, protest, and proliferation of hate on socials, tragedy would unfold somewhere, somehow.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so here we are.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Our world changed forever, and those governments sleepwalking into another potential Holocaust need to wake up, step up, and make change.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Jonah joins me from LA on the eve of a National Reflection Day here in Australia to honor those victims and explores the global perspective, what we can do, and how the hell we got here.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome, Jonah.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Who dreamed that you and I would be reconnecting at this time?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, having spoken a few weeks ago, uh, I think we are not, neither of us are completely shocked, but you're still never prepared for such trauma.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: And sadly, you know, it's exactly as you say, Deborah.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I'm certainly not shocked.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, this was going to happen.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was not a question of if it was who, when, and where.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, it's just tragic, the who, when and where of this, as it would have been anywhere.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just sorry that it was, you know, in your country, in your community, and how devastating I know that's been for every Australian.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, Bondi Beach, I'm not sure if you've ever been there, but it's really the heartland of Australia.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: You have, so you know it, right?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I grew up going to that beach where it's sort of the heartland, and anybody that comes to Australia generally has that beautiful walk along Bondi Beach up up the you know, Bronte to Bondi, Bondi to Bronte.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think, you know, the symbolism is not lost on everyday Australians.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that we've really observed is the extraordinary courage, bravery of everyday Aussies, the local surf community, the policemen, everybody that was there, stepped up in ways that are just almost incomprehensible, put putting their lives at risk, as you know and you've read.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: What are you, what's resonating there in the US?
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you see this as a reflection?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And do you think it's going to action some change?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, on the local ground, we've got slight change happening, small but slowly.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: What are you seeing globally and how do you see this resonating?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the uh one positive factor that I've already seen, a big change, is in the UK, they have now, as a result of this tragedy, outlawed the phrase globalize the intifada.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: You're not allowed to say that.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, as they said, their their reasoning was the context has changed.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the reason I don't have the same fear in, say, America as somebody might in Canada or Australia is because at least at the moment in America, the government is on you sort of, you know, what's cool and what isn't cool.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that that to me is when we start to get really dangerous, is when bad things are happening to Jews and the government isn't, doesn't care uh and is and is permissive and isn't taking it seriously, or is uh you know, fanning the flames in a way supporting it.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's what the big fear around Zoran Mamdani, the incoming mayor of New York is that he's gonna be somebody who is permissive of this kind of aggressive, hostile, violent attitude towards Jews.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: But on the whole, we don't see that much here.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it in in Sydney, sadly, we have seen the government be extremely permissive of the hostility of the anti-Zionist crowd.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: And and on, you know, last Sunday on Bondi, there was not a large police presence.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: This was not a you know ticketed event with extreme security.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I did a candlelighting in LA the same night.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: It was fenced in at the park.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: There was private security, there was LAPD, you know, the head of parks and recreation.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: They took it very, very seriously.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Security required for an event like this.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, everybody gets it.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're it's sad that we need those things.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was about to say at least you you at least you want to be in a municipality that understands we have a responsibility to protect our Jewish constituents, and this is what's required in order to do that.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if it's like total hands-off, sort of like guys, you're on your own, that's scary.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I mean, I if I was living in Australia, I would, I would have a sense of fear.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: And like, are am I safe here?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Is the government gonna really do something about this?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is there gonna be a meaningful change here or not?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that that's what I find worrisome, and that's what I find positive about the shift in Britain.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a small one, but it's meaningful that they are recognizing who knew that chanting, you know, violent uprising around the world would lead to violence around the world, uprising the world, right?
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Who could have predicted this?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think that's so true.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we had the the march across the harbor bridge, we have had the Sydney Opera House chanting, which is, I mean, the debate was was it kill the Jews or you know, it was insane, the semantic debate about just how violent that that chanting was.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you And that was on October 9th, if I'm not mistaken, right?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, before Israel had even retaliated in any way.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing is that the sort of um the uprising of unfettered hate without consequence is actually terrifying.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of Australians have been warning time like on a daily, weekly basis.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: We also, as you know, we had Joel Siegel appointed um to do a um an overview of a strategy to combat anti-Semitism, presented it to the government.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Six months later, nothing was implemented, nothing was actioned.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's just, and I mean, it's beyond comprehension that this has occurred in our country.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: We have um, you know, clearly we have a government that has sort of, it's like they're sleepwalking.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they're not even uh so as of now, as of yesterday, they've announced um, you know, a big gun uh uh moratorium, like hand in your guns.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: So they've made it all about gun laws and gun access.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: So you can have four guns instead of seven.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just it's actually ridiculous, which is a big distracting sort of look, we are doing something, but actually what it does is totally distract from the real issue, which is the anti-Semitism and the hate for Jews and the the completely unregulated um legal strategy here is just so there's a lot of people stepping up, but our government is a problem, and I think that Australians actually are waking up and saying, We got this, we got you.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of angry Australians.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm glad to hear that because you know, we we always talk about Jew hate being the canary in the coal mine, right?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're gonna come for the Jews, then they're gonna come for you.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: And like you can hear that and be like, what does that mean?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are you actually saying?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: And what we're saying is like this stuff rips apart the fabric of society.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it makes everyone unsafe, it makes everything feel dangerous.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it it it that and these are anti-West ideologies, these are not just anti-Jewish ideologies.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's it starts with the Jews, um, but that's not where it ends.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it it is terrible for everyone.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like nobody wants to live in a society where the most you know iconic part of your city is the site of a massacre now every time you go there.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: There, you know, it was a there was a terrorist attack in the center of it.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's horrible for everyone.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so yeah, people really need to understand that it does not end with the Jews.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're cool to just chill until it's your turn, you're gonna end up with a lot of blood on your hands and and in your home.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and, you know, a society that that has and on your beaches and and have you looking at your society going, this isn't the society that I thought I was a part of.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, you didn't do anything to fight for the society you wanted to be a part of, and this is what happens.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they say, you know, first they come for the Saturdays, then they come for the Sundays.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: You would have heard that expression, not a dissimilar reference.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think to be honest, and a lot of, first of all, we've been personally and also on every front, there's been extraordinary um support and people stepping up on every possible platform to say, we are here with you, we are sorry, we understand now.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: We understand now.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: So there is amazing.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it doesn't mean I don't want to sort of whitewash that we still have massive challenges ahead, which we do.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what is also somewhat comforting is speaking to people like you who we've now connected a lot.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: The the Jewish community, we might be small, but boy, we're mighty and we're very connected.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, they say when you're Jewish, you can land in any country and you can go to that local shul and or even just to the local area, and somebody will say, Why don't you come for Shabbos?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a beautiful sort of connectivity that um and a unity that I think is being highlighted and accentuated through this process because I know that people are flying in from the US from is from everywhere saying, What can we do?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: How can we help?
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which is great.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so from a from a United States perspective, or certainly in LA, have you seen any vigils, resonance um support specifically?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know you're very involved with lots of events and you're very present and you've lit you know doing the hunting.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I I don't I don't know that I not that they don't exist.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: I just personally like I haven't seen something, a gathering specifically around Sydney.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: But what I have seen is every gathering that's already sort of on the calendar is now talking about Sydney and reframing around it and you know, taking the moment to discuss it and to to grieve and to to highlight.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's very much a part of the everyday conversation at at everything.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I was in Miami on Monday and then back in LA and was at Advents in Both, and uh both, you know, very strongly spoke about uh the events in Sydney.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's actually really comforting for our Australian community here too.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, it's it's a top of mind for absolutely everybody.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, we we did we have seen some people and some some voices appear who haven't been here before saying, I get it now.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that it is waking people up.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't think, and I I mean, I don't think anybody thinks like that this is now the tipping point.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: I I think unfortunately, you know, there's gonna be another one of these.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know where or when.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think this was the last one.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't this sounds like macabre to say, but like I don't think this was big enough, you know.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it sounds it's yeah, it's like I feel like we need there's gonna be one where 50 people are killed at a, you know, in a in a park or something, and maybe that it in in America, maybe that'll wake people up, you know.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's so tragic to reflect like that, isn't it?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that is macabre, it is sad.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I think also, um, why is it why do you think this has been allowed to fester so much?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: How have we got here?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I because think in Australia we're all shaken to the core that this really how did we get here?
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: We we know how we got here, if you like, because you and I have been talking about this prior to this.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a sense that do you see change?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: And if ch if you do see change, what do you see happening?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because you're speaking to a lot of people across the board, Jewish and non-Jewish, yeah, as am I, but you I know do some very deep dives.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, have you seen any transition and do you see some solutions here?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, to answer the like, how did we get here?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: We got here the same way that, you know, we're obviously we haven't reached the same conclusion, but this is how, you know, it goes in history.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: This is how the Holocaust happened.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: It starts small.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: It starts with some graffiti, it starts with some some comments, it starts with, you know, uh vandalizing a synagogue, vandalizing a restaurant, uh, assaulting a college kid on campus, not letting him go to class because he's wearing a kippah.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it it builds and builds and builds little by little with no consequence.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then the the message becomes, oh, this is allowed.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see if I what I can get away with now.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see if I can go more.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: And not only is there not a strong enough social consequence, there's often a reward where it's, you know, good for you, you know, pushing back against the Zionists.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And when it grows and grows and grows, you know, we had people in America this year.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: We had two people shot outside a Jewish museum.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: We had a Holocaust survivor firebombed at a you know, walk in honor of the hostages, like not that much pushback.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, oh, like I can kill Jews and not not, I mean, I might go to jail, but like it's certainly not hurting the movement.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's no, like, there's no disincentive for it not to continue.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: So that's partly how we got here.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other part of how we got here is this sort of insidious mask of anti-Zionism, where we we're still sort of slow to recognize and call out what that unique brand of Jew hate is and how it works and functions.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's allowed Jew haters to, you know, escalate to where we are with sort of the cover of aggressivism and social justice in a way that people who aren't informed and educated aren't really aware of what's happening because it sounds legitimate, uh, because it's hidden under the language of social justice and of quote-unquote criticism.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: But really, it's you know, all these terrible libels based completely on lies meant to demonize not Jews, but Zionists who are different than Jews, so that that the Zionist is this evil, evil, horrible thing that's represents genocide, apartheid, colonialism, like the things that we as a free Western progressive society hate.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Zionism is all those things.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we're allowed to dehumanize and it and hate Zionists, but we're not anti-Semitic because we don't hate Jews.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: We just hate Zionists and and and people who don't really see what's going on here and aren't that deeply involved.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, yeah, okay, that seems legitimate.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're just criticizing uh the Israeli government, but it's not a criticism, it's a libel meant to demonize Jews to the point where we're allowed to kill them and it's you know, we get applauded because we're doing a good deed for humanity.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think, I think you're right in the sense of it has become such a global movement.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, here, I think yesterday um the New South Wales Premier has now made it that to chant globalize the interfada is no longer legal, which is insane.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: That you have to, you know, I mean, that's extraordinary.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: That that is so dramatic here to have that because we've had so little action.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um there was still, there was actually a march, believe it or not, the next day, a pro-Palestinian march down the streets in Sydney.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to even comprehend.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: While there are surf lifesavers standing on the beach, police standing on the beach.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was just it doesn't surprise me.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there there were pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel, anti-genocide protests on October 7th in the afternoon in America, you know?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's it's not what it's about.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about, it's just about demonizing and hating on Israel and every everything is justified resistance and and good for the liberation of Palestine.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's all it's all a smokescreen.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a hate movement.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: It is a hate movement.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: But you know what?
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the Australian the Australian community is showing that it's had enough and it's doing and it's stepping up.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: In the US, are you saying any, are you concerned or do you see that because obviously the US is a huge target, particularly with your, even though your presence very, very, very sort of strong and powerful at the end of the day, he's also quite provocative and and stirring the pot a lot.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um Yeah, I mean, the the FBI just broke up, uh, they foiled a terrorist plot in California where there were these, I think it was five people got arrested.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: This far, far left pro-Palestinian uh terror cell uh wanted to commit these acts of terror on New Year's Eve with explosives in like five different locations in California.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, Jews are at the center of that, but really it was it's an anti-West thing.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, plenty of non-Jews were gonna die in those explosions too if they hadn't been caught by the FBI testing explosives in the desert.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you know, there's it's it's insane.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: There's always gonna be crazy, hateful, you know, villains out there.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the FBI and and the government, like it's their job to catch those people so that they don't harm us.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: The important thing is that those people and their ideologies are marked and treated as fringe, radical, extreme, undesirable.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want that in our society, and like pushed into the corners.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is when people start to support and mainstream and normalize ideologies.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's when we're in danger.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's the problem.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the problem right now.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting, they've canceled New Year's Eve celebrations in at least five countries.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: And in Australia, we usually have these beautiful fireworks at Bondo Beach.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's not happening.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's cancelled.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think Paris have cancelled.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, lots of um, quite a few countries have canceled their celebrations um because of this particular act, but also obviously they're seeing how invasive.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: But to your point, the normalization of the radicalization as being a mainstream is why we're in such a mess right now, unless we have leadership.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: So can we talk to leadership for a minute?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because leadership is a huge issue here in Australia.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: So clearly, we referenced um our Prime Minister, the lack of leadership, foreign affairs uh spokesperson hasn't even spoken or attended anything, like not a funeral, not a nothing.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's it you wouldn't read about it, you know, it's like some sort of bad movie, horror movie.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: So what's your take on, do you feel because of the leadership in the US?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and what about your local um Californian and LA?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: What's your perspective on leadership?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, leadership is extremely important.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: And as I sort of alluded to earlier, thank God, for the most part, you know, our leadership, certainly federally, is is pretty, you know, pro-security, anti-Muslim extremism, and and pretty, you know, on mission with keeping this nation secure from those kinds of things.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: In California, generally, I I it's sort of a city by city kind of thing.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're so massive.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, the the mayor of LA has been not great on this stuff.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: She it's been a lot of sort of empty tokenistic.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just sort of a like I stand against and I stand with the Jewish community, but like just not enough crackdown.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we need we need action.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh people, it needs to be made, you need to be a social pariah for engaging in this stuff.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: It can't just be like a little slap on the wrist.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, you when you when you think of it in terms of, you know, uh the broken window theory, I think it was, of like crime in New York, where it was like what when you when you tamp down on the little crimes, uh it it it tamps down on big crimes because when you allow people to get away with little stuff, it sort of creates this slippery slope atmosphere of, oh, what else can I get away with?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: What else can I get away with?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and I think we need to sort of take that approach when it comes to anti-Jew hate crimes, because it just it just festers and continues to be.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think that's right.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you've got so in terms of, I mean, here, um obviously immigration's a huge issue.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: But the irony of the whole thing, I mean, the the the most ironic thing is so many of those that were killed and murdered at Bondo Beach were actually, you know, from Ukraine.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Matilda's family, um, they were immigrants, they were here, you know, trying, I mean, they s they literally sacrificed their lives to protect others.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: The most terrible, but but he talked about why he named her Matilda, his the father of the young 10-year-old that was murdered, was because, you know, it's an Australian name.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, while sing Matilda is a very famous Australian song.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was just gut-wrenching hearing that at the funeral.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: But the issue of immigration, the irony is there are so many immigrants in Sydney that came here, they're first generation, many Holocaust survivors, many, many.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably the biggest um group of Holocaust survivors outside of Israel.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's quite.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's like really um massive.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's a really complex discussion around the issue of immigration, because clearly, who are we letting in, how are we letting them in, what's being screened, and you've got the same issue, but different on a massive scale.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: So what's the what's the thinking there in terms of it's a strange thing for Jewish people who've always been very supportive of immigration because we've always believed if you're in trouble, come here, come into our country, we will look after you, we'll take care of you, you can start again, right?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's very much that.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and I think you have it has to be sort of a common sense approach to this stuff, right?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: And we also can't be afraid to say certain things like, you know, extreme Islamist, jihadist, Sharia law-loving Muslims are not the kind of people you want immigrating into your country because they they are seeking to destabilize Western society.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I put a lot of adjectives in front of that word Muslim because it's certainly not all Muslims at all.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Certainly not.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're very close.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: I know personally many lovely moderate Muslims from many countries around Asia, America, and the Middle East, yeah, um, who I consider friends and who are like wonderful human beings, they're not espousing you know jihadist ideologies that want to take down the West.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: They want to participate in the West.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: They're like normal people with Western values.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think it's crazy to say, like, we need to look extra hard at certain Muslims coming from certain countries when they come in to try to immigrate, like, really do a deep dive and make sure the kind of people that we're letting in like be really careful about it.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's not worth the risk.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not, it's I don't, I don't think it's unfair to profile.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like not necessarily every terrorist in the world is Muslim, but the vast majority of terrorist attacks are perpetuated by Muslim extremists.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's totally fine to say when that type of person is coming in, let's be really careful and really sure before we let them in.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, you know, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: And especially because, like, let's like, what are you weighing?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_01: You're weighing the safety of all of your constituents versus like, do I look like a racist?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I I would argue the safety of all your constituents is clearly more important than how you might be perceived through a progressive racial or you know religious lens.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's right.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that has to, that is changing, and it has to change because I think people are realizing that if it doesn't, as you point out correctly, we're going, we're at the mercy of this sort of ideology.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and certainly it's interesting, the shooters they identified, well, one had been on the ASIO list, um, which is our like our FBI, um, and um uh and yet his father was approved for a gun, I mean, the gun license, and uh, you know, there's a whole story there, but but basically it's near impossible to manage that once they're in the country and once they're here and once they're unregulated.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: So from your perspective, do you think this is a turning point?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: I know you mentioned you don't know if it's inverted, commas big enough, but it's part of the whole story because for in in Australia it is.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: In Australia, it feels a slow, very slow, but a definite shift has occurred.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like the in Australia it's spun on its axis.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's how it feels.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody is feeling unsettled, but also feeling like finally there are people speaking up and saying, Oh, we get this now.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm wondering if you think that there's any changes happening globally as well.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think there, of course there is.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm my sort of view is let's see how people how many people are talking next week, you know, like it's very easy to say, wow, that massacre was horrible.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Look what's happening.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: What are you gonna say two weeks from now when it's not a massacre, but it's you know, uh a protest, uh a violent anti-Zionist protest, and they're you know breaking windows.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: Are you gonna have the same reaction?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Or because 15 people didn't die, uh, this one's okay.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's that's what I'm looking out for.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm also really looking out for, you know, what's really gonna turn this tide is the the silent majority, the people in the middle, the people who's who don't weigh in, the people who have good hearts and good morals and good values, but don't feel like this is their fight.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Like, until those people demand some accountability and some security and push back against this stuff, like the the Jewish voices alone are never gonna be enough.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's just numerically, we're we're way too small.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh enough people discredit uh discredit us, anyways, just because we're the Jewish community and whatever we're saying is Zionist propaganda or whatever it is.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: So whatever is getting through that filter already is just it's small numerically.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna take society, it's gonna take non-Jews, it's gonna take leadership who isn't Jewish, it's gonna take your friends and neighbors and and teachers and principals and whatever, all demanding this the same way that, for example, I don't know the vibe in Australia, but I I think so.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, the this sort of the racial awakening that's happened around the world like since 2020, like it's become a societal sort of imperative to reflect on our racial discrepancies and how can we start righting some of our historic wrongs.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: It has to become a societal imperative that everybody is bought into in a meaningful way for it to actually change.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: It takes, it's gonna take more people.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's literally like a numbers thing.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: It has to be a a sweeping tide of this of this feeling of wanting a change to happen for the change to actually occur.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely agree.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I can feel the groundswell here, and it's certainly starting here, and I think governments are shaken.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I just pray and hope that it becomes much more of a global uh groundswell.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: But as you say, it's got to be the silent majority that step up because the bystander rule being a, you know, that that what there's that famous saying.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: First they came for the Jews, then they came for the Christians, then they came for the, you know, and they keep coming, and then they, you know, then they came for me, but there was no one to save me.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: That famous saying, and it's true.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, and also from all the messages and of support I can see um, you know, across Australia, I think people are starting to realize that we are not as alone as we were two weeks ago.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: We're still pretty alone, but we're not as alone.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I really hope that you and I can go on this that we can observe this journey from our different parts of the world and stay connected and united, all take care of each other, but also keep educating, engaging.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Podcasting is has become a power tool, yours and mine.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I see it.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's a power tool, it's a platform, and let's use it, let's talk, let's engage.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: You do an amazing job.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so grateful for you coming to join me again only a few weeks later to reflect.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: It is Reflection Day officially here tomorrow to honor the victims of the Bondi Massacre.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very poignant that you and I have had this chat.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's my pleasure.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel better connecting with you and you know being able to share love with the Australian community.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: We are holding you all in our hearts and thinking of you so much.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I I hope tomorrow is a day of unity for you all, of the wider Australian community and that of morning for everyone.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Jonah.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: We'll stay connected.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: You got it.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you for joining us on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoyed that interview because we are so privileged to have a wonderful platform where guests come on and share lessons learned, rivers crossed, mountains climbed.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: We love our shared humanity, and we are so grateful to have such a beautiful community.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: So remember to stay curious, kind, and connected, and we'll see you next time at the What I've Learned Podcast.