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Startup founder mistakes: Why you should fight for control of your company | Founder Confessions · Founder Confessions

• 0:00
  Mukund: At the time, the idea was to build this entire company in crypto.
• 0:04
  That's my confession.
• 0:05
  Um, hopefully no VCs watch this.
• 0:07
  I get to build whatever business I want.
• 0:08
  This is my life
• 0:09
  Mukund: once you're, two bad divorces and a mortgage in-
• 0:11
  it's much harder to start a company
• 0:13
  It will not get easier over time.
• 0:15
  you get the term sheet.
• 0:16
  Everyone goes crazy in the office.
• 0:17
  And you sign, and a year later you're like, "I had options."
• 0:31
  Sweta: I'm here with Mukund, and he's the co-founder of UpFront,
• 0:36
  which builds back office operations for the real estate industry.
• 0:41
  Today, the company supports more than 80 enterprise accounts, which represents more
• 0:45
  than 200-plus brokerages- That's right
• 0:47
  20,000 real estate agents across 38 states and Canada.
• 0:53
  So, that reach is impressive.
• 0:55
  Uh, they're processing more than 45,000 transactions a year.
• 0:59
  You're gonna have to tell me what that means.
• 1:01
  And most excitingly, just a few months away from being cash flow positive.
• 1:01
  Congrats.
• 1:01
  That's right.
• 1:01
  This is exciting.
• 1:02
  Thank you.
• 1:08
  Mukund: Thank you.
• 1:08
  Sweta: Thank you so much for being part of Founder Confessions.
• 1:11
  I'm so excited to chat.
• 1:12
  Let's just start with something simple.
• 1:14
  In plain English, tell us what does UpFront do?
• 1:17
  What problem does it solve for whom?
• 1:18
  Mukund: That's a great question, especially because you mentioned
• 1:21
  the back office side just now.
• 1:23
  Um, we do do back office work, but really, let's zoom out for a minute.
• 1:27
  Um, what we do is we focus on the workflows that brokerages and
• 1:30
  agents have and making those better, which is part of the back office.
• 1:33
  Yeah.
• 1:34
  And then second is we focus on agent health and wealth, right?
• 1:37
  Mm. Which is to give them financial services and health
• 1:40
  insurance to really help them be their best version of themselves.
• 1:43
  Amazing.
• 1:43
  Um, so that's what we focus on generally in the residential
• 1:46
  real estate space right now.
• 1:47
  Sweta: Very cool.
• 1:48
  And so is your customer, the buyer, is, is that the brokerage that buys
• 1:54
  it for their real estate agents?
• 1:56
  Who's paying for it?
• 1:58
  Mukund: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 1:58
  It depends on the product, right- Oh that we have.
• 2:00
  So
• 2:00
  we have numerous revenue lines, which I can get into.
• 2:02
  Sweta: Yes,
• 2:03
  Mukund: interesting.
• 2:03
  Generally speaking, yes, it's the brokerage that is buying.
• 2:06
  We do also work with associations.
• 2:08
  Um, and the end user is generally the agent when it comes to the non-back
• 2:13
  office products- Mm right?
• 2:14
  So
• 2:14
  it's something that the brokers or associations can use to attract, recruit,
• 2:19
  and retain, uh, members, AKA agents, but also make money while doing it with us.
• 2:24
  Sweta: So it basically, the payer and user is the agent, and so the brokerages
• 2:30
  serve as kind of like a B to- B to C
• 2:33
  Mukund: angle.
• 2:33
  Yeah, B to B to C. Yes.
• 2:34
  The brokerage is generally paying as well, um, and so there's some split there,
• 2:39
  and it depends on kind of what revenue line- Yeah we're talking about.
• 2:42
  But yes, you basically got the right idea.
• 2:43
  Sweta: Oh, that's really cool.
• 2:44
  And I was listening to an interview where I heard something about you all also have
• 2:49
  figured out how to offer health insurance-
• 2:51
  Mukund: That's right
• 2:52
  Sweta: to independent contractors, which- That's right real estate
• 2:54
  agents are, which is really cool.
• 2:56
  Yep.
• 2:56
  To, I just think that's so fascinating as someone who owns her own business.
• 3:00
  Yep.
• 3:00
  I'm fortunate enough to have a partner who I can get insurance through, but a
• 3:03
  lot of my peers don't have that option.
• 3:05
  So this is a really hot topic.
• 3:06
  I'm so curious.
• 3:07
  Tell me how you made that work.
• 3:10
  Mukund: I can't give away all the secret sauce.
• 3:12
  I'm just, I can understand.
• 3:13
  Um, but yeah, I, I agree.
• 3:14
  The 1099 market is super underserved generally.
• 3:17
  Yeah.
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  And real estate agents are one of the largest, you know, components
• 3:20
  of that 1099 industry world.
• 3:22
  Yeah.
• 3:22
  Um, and so we found some partners who really do understand the
• 3:26
  space as deeply as we do.
• 3:27
  Awesome.
• 3:28
  And so we're able to, because of our back office system, really
• 3:31
  understand the financial lives of these agents and brokerages.
• 3:34
  Okay.
• 3:34
  And through our partner, offer these kind of health insurance
• 3:37
  policies that you can find elsewhere, but not as well as us, frankly.
• 3:42
  Sweta: Oh, no.
• 3:42
  It- Yeah it's a very big problem.
• 3:44
  Mukund: Yes.
• 3:44
  Sweta: I agree.
• 3:44
  Oh, my gosh.
• 3:45
  So since we're talking about partners, actually, I wanna jump over to something
• 3:49
  related, which I think is so impressive.
• 3:50
  So you acquired a company.
• 3:52
  Mukund: That's right.
• 3:53
  Sweta: And with it, is it right, 15 years of real world wor- workflows?
• 3:59
  Mukund: Yes.
• 4:00
  Sweta: Tell me more about why you purchased it and what
• 4:03
  has that enabled for you.
• 4:04
  It seems like partnerships and Is, is a big part of how, and acquisitions, right?
• 4:09
  Yeah.
• 4:09
  Working with other companies is a big part of your model.
• 4:11
  Tell us, tell us more about that.
• 4:12
  Mukund: Yeah, so to be clear, we, we didn't acquire a whole company.
• 4:15
  We acquired a product from another company.
• 4:18
  Right.
• 4:18
  But that product was big.
• 4:19
  Um, it was a back office product.
• 4:22
  Yeah.
• 4:22
  You know, the obvious answers of why we did that are obviously the revenue
• 4:25
  and the customers, but I think that's missing the forest for the trees, frankly.
• 4:30
  Really what we learned and now have access to is 15 years of workflow, right?
• 4:35
  Yeah.
• 4:35
  So, if you wanted to build something for the real estate industry, some
• 4:38
  sort of AI product, you're gonna be able to d- build a half decent product-
• 4:43
  Yeah but not understand all the edge cases and, you know, weird scenarios
• 4:47
  that happen throughout real estate.
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  And that's what really we get to see is 15 years of every edge case, every
• 4:53
  problem that could pop up, how to make it work, how to move the money.
• 4:56
  Wow.
• 4:57
  That's really what we got access to.
• 4:59
  Um, and that's what, that's our superpower, right?
• 5:01
  That's why we're growing so quickly.
• 5:02
  Sweta: That's incredible.
• 5:03
  So
• 5:03
  you just have access to this rich, really nuanced, very specific, I'm sure
• 5:08
  p- potentially for me and most people, boring information that's literally
• 5:13
  changing the trajectory of your business.
• 5:14
  Mukund: I hope, you know- the, the unsexiest businesses are
• 5:17
  usually the most- Yes valuable.
• 5:18
  Sweta: So, yes.
• 5:19
  I love it.
• 5:19
  Yeah.
• 5:19
  That is, I absolutely agree with you on that.
• 5:21
  I think that's so cool.
• 5:22
  And there's something, it kind of gets my wheels turning because I
• 5:25
  feel like there's a lot of learning for a lot of other industries-
• 5:30
  Mukund: Yes
• 5:30
  Sweta: to really look at this level of data, this type of data.
• 5:35
  Mukund: Yep.
• 5:36
  Sweta: Because the possibilities are endless when you actually take the time
• 5:38
  to understand the very nuanced, specific ways that your customers are experiencing
• 5:43
  the problems- Yeah in their world.
• 5:45
  Like, how cool.
• 5:46
  Mukund: And
• 5:46
  real estate is such a compliance intensive industry.
• 5:49
  It's almost less s- less about the data, but more about the
• 5:53
  actual real life workflows, right?
• 5:55
  Yeah.
• 5:55
  Everybody knows what the data is in real estate, the home s- sale
• 5:58
  value, you know, commission- Yeah split, all of that kind of stuff.
• 6:01
  But seeing how that's actually done as a process is a very different question.
• 6:05
  Yeah.
• 6:05
  And I don't think outsiders understand that.
• 6:08
  Um, and so that's, that's really why we wanted this product.
• 6:11
  Um- Yeah and it's been a great base for us to build everything
• 6:13
  else that we've built today.
• 6:14
  Sweta: Yeah.
• 6:14
  It's incredible.
• 6:15
  It's incredible.
• 6:15
  It's very impressive.
• 6:16
  I love it.
• 6:17
  So let's talk about the thing that we're here for, your confession.
• 6:22
  Tell us a little bit about what you assumed when you were bu- before
• 6:25
  you were building a business that did not turn out to be that way.
• 6:30
  Mukund: So I'm actually gonna switch it up on you- Oh, okay last minute.
• 6:33
  Yes.
• 6:33
  So my confession is slightly different than what I told you.
• 6:37
  Sweta: Okay.
• 6:37
  Mukund: I'm excited.
• 6:37
  Hopefully we can roll with it.
• 6:38
  Sweta: Yes,
• 6:38
  Mukund: please.
• 6:39
  Um, so I w- did the idea for Upfront for the Harvard Business School
• 6:43
  Pitch Competition- and won it.
• 6:45
  At the time, the idea was to build this entire company in crypto.
• 6:49
  That's my confession.
• 6:50
  It was a crypto company- No to begin
• 6:52
  with.
• 6:52
  Oh
• 6:53
  Sweta: my gosh.
• 6:53
  Mukund: Um, hopefully no VCs watch this.
• 6:55
  Um, but, um, yeah, it was originally a crypto, you know, liquidity-based idea.
• 7:00
  Um, we didn't end up doing that.
• 7:01
  There's a future in which we do end up doing that.
• 7:04
  Um, but that's, that's my confession.
• 7:06
  Um, in terms of learnings, you know, this is not my first company.
• 7:10
  Um, and I think one of the big takeaways I've had is that as a founder, especially
• 7:15
  at the earliest stages, you really have to and should fight for every
• 7:19
  part of the company that you can keep.
• 7:21
  Yeah.
• 7:21
  And it's not about making a bunch of money if you exit at the end.
• 7:25
  It's about governance and the control and the say you have in your company,
• 7:29
  and I think that's super important today 'cause founders are getting younger.
• 7:33
  AI is enabling found- younger founders to, you know, start companies, and
• 7:37
  it's very easy for them to get pushed around by older investors who are moving
• 7:41
  billions of dollars a year, right?
• 7:42
  Right.
• 7:43
  Yeah.
• 7:43
  And so I think what I learned is to stand up for my- ourselves or
• 7:46
  myself, um, and make a real argument of why it should stay with me, of,
• 7:50
  of, uh, ownership of the company.
• 7:52
  Um- Yeah and
• 7:53
  I-
• 7:53
  think everyone should, you know, keep that in mind moving forward.
• 7:56
  Sweta: Absolutely.
• 7:56
  Oh my gosh, I That is so rich, and you learned that how?
• 8:00
  Mukund: The hard way.
• 8:02
  I learned that the hard way.
• 8:03
  Oh, my gosh.
• 8:04
  Um, you know, numerous companies in my past that I've founded or been a
• 8:07
  part of, and looking back, you know, there were, there were some good
• 8:10
  outcomes and some not so good outcomes.
• 8:13
  But all of them, what I felt was that I didn't push for what
• 8:16
  was mine or what I deserved.
• 8:18
  Yeah.
• 8:18
  And so this company, we've done things differently.
• 8:21
  Um, you know, my co-founders and I have a great split between us, and, you know,
• 8:25
  we're very happy, but we've also been very clear with our investors that we
• 8:28
  have a v- we have a vision of where we wanna go, and we want investors,
• 8:33
  obviously, to be bought in on that.
• 8:34
  But part of the earliest stages means we should have control over that vision.
• 8:38
  Yeah.
• 8:38
  And so, yeah, lesson learned.
• 8:40
  Sweta: Oh, my gosh.
• 8:41
  Incredible.
• 8:42
  So not only do you have a lesson learned, you've actually also already
• 8:46
  applied it- Yes to building your next business differently.
• 8:49
  That's
• 8:49
  Mukund: right.
• 8:49
  That's right.
• 8:50
  Sweta: Oh, my gosh.
• 8:50
  Yeah, that's incredible.
• 8:51
  I think that's so exciting.
• 8:52
  'Cause a lot, a lot of the founders here, I think are, part of the
• 8:55
  series, are first-time founders.
• 8:57
  Um, and so I think there's a lot where you're sort of, they're still in it.
• 9:01
  Mukund: Yeah.
• 9:01
  Sweta: And I think as, like, a second-time founder, hearing how
• 9:03
  you've completely changed the way that you're building it is, is so inspiring.
• 9:07
  Um, very cool.
• 9:08
  Very, very cool.
• 9:09
  Um, okay, let's, let's switch it up.
• 9:11
  Let's talk about what is something that is top of mind for your
• 9:15
  dream customers right now.
• 9:17
  And especially, I'm really curious to hear what your unique take is, right,
• 9:21
  on whatever this thing is that you're, like, in your case, I think let's
• 9:25
  talk about real estate agents, right?
• 9:26
  Yeah.
• 9:27
  What, what's top of mind for them?
• 9:28
  What are, what are they stressed about, and what's your take on it?
• 9:31
  Mukund: Yeah, I'll zoom out a little bit.
• 9:32
  I think let's talk about real estate brokerages- Sure, yeah and
• 9:34
  then I can go back down to agents.
• 9:36
  Brokerages are experiencing compression from all angles on
• 9:40
  the commissions that they earn.
• 9:42
  I think a common misconception that people outside the industry have is that
• 9:46
  brokerages, not agents, are making a ton of money off real estate commissions.
• 9:50
  They're really not.
• 9:51
  Mm. And that has been shrinking year on year for the last decade, and so that's
• 9:55
  why you see brokerages opening up a mortgage division or a title division
• 9:59
  and finding these ancillary revenue streams, and I think that's top of mind.
• 10:03
  Yeah.
• 10:03
  Now, in terms of what my unique take on that is- I think the future for those
• 10:08
  revenue streams is financial services.
• 10:10
  Mm. This is a financial industry.
• 10:12
  It moves a lot of money, and it's com- it's very little, you know, innate,
• 10:16
  uh, industry native financial services, and I think that's where we come in.
• 10:20
  We give brokers and agents these tools to supercharge their
• 10:23
  existing, you know, business- Yeah
• 10:25
  and make money while doing it, right?
• 10:27
  Sweta: Oh my gosh, yes.
• 10:28
  What a innovative way to solve this problem.
• 10:31
  I love it.
• 10:32
  I think that's so interesting.
• 10:33
  Um, okay.
• 10:34
  Well, let's, let's talk about something maybe that's gonna
• 10:38
  be a little bit personal.
• 10:39
  So one of the things that I'm really bullish on, that I believe
• 10:42
  in, is that this concept of what I call your wealth garden.
• 10:45
  Mm-hmm.
• 10:46
  And the point being that all of us, through our entire life, are going to
• 10:50
  have lots of different income streams: active, semi-passive, passive, whether
• 10:54
  that's our jobs, the businesses we own, the assets we own, and they'll evolve.
• 10:59
  And one of the things that I think is really important is really thinking about
• 11:03
  how the business that you're building fits into your current wealth garden and
• 11:08
  what that business needs to do for you.
• 11:10
  Um, so what, what makes this business the right business for your wealth garden?
• 11:14
  Mukund: I think that's a great question, but I think it's also a
• 11:19
  question that has different answers depending on the person you ask,
• 11:22
  Sweta: right?
• 11:22
  Mukund: Yeah.
• 11:22
  Tell,
• 11:22
  Sweta: tell me about yours.
• 11:23
  Yeah.
• 11:23
  Mukund: So, you know, I'm, you know, in my 20s, and so I am able to take big bets and
• 11:30
  eat ramen noodles for two months straight.
• 11:32
  Yeah.
• 11:32
  And my wealth garden might look a lot like just this company and, like,
• 11:35
  some passive investing right now.
• 11:37
  I can talk about that.
• 11:38
  I think generally speaking, for founders, you gotta get used to the
• 11:43
  idea that you are throwing in 110% of your chips into the table right now.
• 11:48
  Yeah.
• 11:49
  And so I agree with your notion of a wealth garden, um, and I think that
• 11:53
  founders should keep that in mind- Yeah
• 11:54
  as they're, you know, especially as AI makes it easier to start
• 11:57
  companies and numerous at once.
• 11:59
  Yeah.
• 11:59
  You could potentially have numerous.
• 12:01
  Um, but right now, you know, we're - I'm laser focused on making my company grow.
• 12:06
  Obviously, I spend some time in crypto.
• 12:07
  I'm always playing in crypto.
• 12:09
  Um, and in real estate as well, generally speaking.
• 12:12
  Love it, yes.
• 12:12
  Um, but yeah, I think in terms of how this fits into my broader wealth
• 12:16
  garden, I'll flip it back, actually.
• 12:19
  I think the point of our company is to build a wealth garden for our customers.
• 12:23
  Aw,
• 12:23
  Sweta: I love
• 12:23
  Mukund: that.
• 12:23
  Right?
• 12:23
  'Cause the real estate agents don't have these tools.
• 12:25
  They don't have ancillary revenue streams- No
• 12:27
  or the brokerages, and so we wanna c- build a wealth garden for them, actually-
• 12:31
  Sweta: Oh, I love that is
• 12:32
  the answer.
• 12:32
  Yeah.
• 12:32
  Oh my gosh, yes.
• 12:33
  And also, I really appreciate that you have the awareness about the
• 12:39
  advantage that you have about being in your 20s and the- Yeah sacrifices
• 12:43
  that you're able to make, right?
• 12:44
  Yeah.
• 12:44
  And that's something I, I'm much older than you, and that's something All
• 12:49
  the 20-year-olds that I know in my life, I always coach them for the same thing,
• 12:52
  whether you, it's a business that you own or you're working- This is the time, like-
• 12:57
  Mukund: Yep
• 12:58
  Sweta: go all in.
• 12:59
  Absorb
• 12:59
  Mukund: it.
• 12:59
  Yeah, once, once you're, you know, two bad divorces and a mortgage in-
• 13:02
  it's much harder to start a company with, you know, little revenue.
• 13:06
  Sweta: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:06
  Mukund: Um, so I always encourage people I know, um, to take the swing at, you
• 13:10
  know, at the base with the bat right now.
• 13:12
  Yeah.
• 13:13
  It will not get easier over time.
• 13:14
  Sweta: No, it doesn't.
• 13:15
  And I also really appreciate what you're saying about it takes time, right?
• 13:18
  Yes.
• 13:18
  Like, I love that you've, you know, you honestly shared where you are
• 13:22
  in your profitability journey.
• 13:23
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:23
  I think that's something not enough people talk about, and you have
• 13:26
  to be honest about that, right?
• 13:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:28
  That directly impacts the m- the money that you make.
• 13:31
  I
• 13:31
  Mukund: agree.
• 13:32
  Yeah, I do I will say that, you know, we are close to cash flow
• 13:35
  positive, and I'm very excited about that, but that's a choice, right?
• 13:38
  Yeah, yep.
• 13:38
  That's,
• 13:39
  that's a,
• 13:39
  that's a buttoned feather.
• 13:40
  Exactly.
• 13:41
  And so it comes at the expense of growth, right?
• 13:43
  If we are hoarding cash, that's not necessarily the best for a
• 13:46
  C-stage company's growth narrative.
• 13:49
  Sure.
• 13:49
  Um, so the way I talk to people about it, especially investors, is that we will have
• 13:53
  the option to be profitable very soon.
• 13:55
  Sweta: Love it.
• 13:56
  Mukund: But we wanna grow faster.
• 13:58
  So at any moment, I can turn this company profitable, but I wanna grow fast, capture
• 14:02
  market share, land and expand- Yeah and then turn on the profit engine.
• 14:06
  Sweta: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:07
  I love that, and I think that's exactly what the whole point
• 14:09
  of this series is, right?
• 14:11
  Is, is sort of being honest about that.
• 14:13
  And then that's why I'm gla- glad you're here and having this conversation, is
• 14:16
  you have this awareness where you're, you're saying, "I'm making the decisions
• 14:19
  Mm-hmm
• 14:20
  as the co-founder," right?
• 14:22
  Mukund: Yes.
• 14:22
  Sometimes- Like, you're making these- it feels like they're
• 14:22
  being made for you, but yes.
• 14:24
  Yeah.
• 14:24
  Sweta: Well, you have the choice, right?
• 14:26
  Yes.
• 14:26
  You have the E- even the investments you choose to accept.
• 14:29
  Mukund: That's very
• 14:30
  Sweta: true.
• 14:30
  You are in the driver's seat of that.
• 14:31
  Yes.
• 14:31
  Right?
• 14:32
  Ultimately, it's your choice, and that's, that's good.
• 14:34
  I think it's important for us to say, "I get to build whatever
• 14:37
  business I want. This is my life."
• 14:38
  Mukund: It comes back to the governance and ownership stuff, right?
• 14:40
  Sweta: Love it.
• 14:40
  Yes.
• 14:41
  Yeah.
• 14:41
  Oh my gosh.
• 14:41
  I love the dots are already connecting.
• 14:43
  Incredible.
• 14:44
  so another big question for you.
• 14:45
  So something that my co-host for this limited series, Ashley Grace Jefferson,
• 14:49
  is super bullish on is that AI will push businesses back to fundamentals.
• 14:54
  So the biggest one right now is knowing your customers intimately.
• 14:59
  Mukund: Yes.
• 15:00
  Sweta: And Ashley thinks that in real life, events and
• 15:04
  community are the way to do it.
• 15:07
  So with that in mind, what is the last thing that you can think of that you
• 15:10
  learned about your customers that you could have only learned in person?
• 15:16
  Mukund: I think, uh, we, I always knew that, you know, it's a difficult industry.
• 15:21
  People are making less money.
• 15:22
  The real estate market's taking a beating.
• 15:24
  I think hearing their stories of what that means tangibly- Yeah it
• 15:28
  means that they're selling less homes.
• 15:29
  It means they're making less per home sale.
• 15:32
  Yeah.
• 15:32
  Um, that's the negative side.
• 15:34
  The positive side is what have they done to innovate their way out of that, right?
• 15:38
  Yeah.
• 15:39
  It's been very exciting to hear the ideas that people in the industry have had
• 15:42
  of, "Okay, we're gonna do mortgage now. Okay, we're gonna do title now." Yeah.
• 15:46
  "Maybe we're gonna step out of that even." Yeah.
• 15:48
  And so a lot of those things, you're not getting that over
• 15:50
  an email or a LinkedIn post.
• 15:52
  You need to talk to people- Yeah
• 15:54
  um, and really listen to, you know, their thought process.
• 15:56
  And so the, I spend a lot of my time as CEO not necessarily directing
• 16:01
  what we should do, but listening to the customers and then thinking-
• 16:05
  Yeah about how that, you know, interacts with our product roadmap, right?
• 16:08
  Sweta: Yeah.
• 16:09
  That's incredible, and I can totally tell that you guys are paying
• 16:12
  attention to, to your customers.
• 16:14
  Is there anything specific that you do to get close to your customers?
• 16:17
  Is there, do you do calls with them?
• 16:19
  Are you doing events?
• 16:20
  Like, how, how do you get, uh, how do you build this practice where you're-
• 16:23
  Yep prioritizing this, right?
• 16:24
  Mukund: Yep.
• 16:25
  We have, um, so I'm one of three co-founders.
• 16:27
  Let's start there.
• 16:28
  Oh, yeah.
• 16:28
  Events.
• 16:28
  Uh, we do, we do events.
• 16:30
  Um, I think that's one of the har- highest ROI kind of GTM motions
• 16:34
  we can do, um, simply because we sell at the C-suite level, right?
• 16:38
  Cold emails to the CEO of Berkshire Hathaway- is not gonna work.
• 16:42
  Um, so we do a lot of events.
• 16:44
  Um, I think also real estate especially is a relationships-based industry.
• 16:48
  Yeah, 100%.
• 16:49
  And Pierre and Ish, my co-founders, are veterans of this industry.
• 16:54
  Yes.
• 16:54
  And I wouldn't be able to do this without them.
• 16:56
  Um, so that, that's a big part.
• 16:58
  Events is a big part of this.
• 17:00
  Um, and then constantly, you don't, we're not selling to them.
• 17:03
  We wanna hear how things are going.
• 17:05
  And so people who aren't our customers, we have regular calls with just to hear- Yeah
• 17:08
  "What's going on in your market? How's your business doing?" And
• 17:11
  oftentimes, that leads to ideas for us.
• 17:13
  Yeah.
• 17:13
  So we get a lot of value out of that.
• 17:14
  Sweta: That's, that's incredible.
• 17:16
  So let's continue down this actually path and do a conversation around
• 17:23
  just the state of building a business in 2026 with AI, with the
• 17:28
  lack of trust, with everything- Yep
• 17:30
  the economic downturn.
• 17:33
  Well, how has that affected your business, whether that's your customers
• 17:39
  or your operations, your marketing?
• 17:41
  Like- Yeah how is that showing up for you all?
• 17:43
  Mukund: Customers are having a hard time with their own businesses.
• 17:46
  Like I said, real estate's in a downturn.
• 17:47
  Yeah.
• 17:47
  Brokerages are feeling it, agents are feeling it.
• 17:50
  Um, I do think that building in a downturn is good for startups because
• 17:55
  you only have up to go from here, right?
• 17:56
  Yeah.
• 17:56
  Real estate is not gonna keep going down forever.
• 17:59
  Sweta: Nope.
• 17:59
  Mukund: Um, second, I think that, you know, building trust is something, or
• 18:05
  the, the lack of trust is something that you mentioned, which is why we
• 18:08
  don't come in as an AI company, right?
• 18:11
  Yeah.
• 18:11
  I think there's a lot, especially in an antiquated industry like real estate, that
• 18:14
  is not how you get your customers to be, you know, willing to try something out.
• 18:19
  What we do is we work with them to understand what they're already
• 18:21
  doing, help them do what they're already doing better- Yeah.
• 18:24
  Yeah and then layer in AI in a way that doesn't feel scary, that doesn't feel
• 18:28
  out, you know, out of left field, right?
• 18:30
  Yeah.
• 18:31
  And that's been very useful for us.
• 18:33
  Um, generally speaking, though, I think the state of the seed stage,
• 18:37
  you know, ecosystem right now is that there are less bets being placed,
• 18:41
  but the amounts per bet are higher.
• 18:43
  Sweta: Yeah.
• 18:44
  Mukund: Um, and so that's been interesting to see, um, in the
• 18:47
  market, but I think that will unwind a little bit over the next few years.
• 18:50
  We'll see if that bet plays out.
• 18:52
  Sweta: Yeah.
• 18:52
  That's super interesting.
• 18:53
  And has your operations been impacted in, in terms of using AI or the decision?
• 19:00
  Oh, absolutely.
• 19:00
  I mean,
• 19:02
  Mukund: we have a team of five, including me, doing, you know, the
• 19:04
  work of, like, 20 people easily.
• 19:06
  Incredible.
• 19:06
  Right?
• 19:06
  Yeah.
• 19:06
  Um, so I mean, I, I don't think any company, any startup right now, if
• 19:10
  you're not using AI heavily, uh, there's just, you don't really have a
• 19:14
  great shot of making it in this market.
• 19:17
  Um, so yeah, we are, we are completely AI native, right?
• 19:19
  Internally.
• 19:20
  Um, and we want to bring the real estate industry to where we're at.
• 19:24
  Um, I think that takes time, patience, and trust.
• 19:27
  Sweta: Yeah, absolutely.
• 19:29
  And, and I, I know, I'm a new real estate nerd, by the way.
• 19:32
  I love real estate.
• 19:33
  I own a property, and I'm obsessed with it.
• 19:35
  Um, super bullish on, on the industry in general.
• 19:37
  I'm sure it'll, it'll recover.
• 19:38
  That's great.
• 19:39
  It makes sense.
• 19:39
  So yeah, I love that you're just doing something that feels like it's actually
• 19:43
  gonna help the industry- Yeah, 100%, yeah in a, in a meaningful way.
• 19:47
  That's, but cha- but is changing the status quo in a
• 19:50
  really big way, and- Absolutely
• 19:51
  I totally agree that it takes patience.
• 19:53
  Yep.
• 19:54
  Right?
• 19:54
  When we're doing something that dramatic, you just have to be patient.
• 19:57
  Yep.
• 19:57
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 19:58
  That makes a ton of sense.
• 20:00
  Um, okay, so before we close out, we have one last thing for you.
• 20:04
  I want you to repeat the sentence and then finish, finish the sentence for
• 20:07
  me: If I could go back to when I started my business, I would tell myself blank.
• 20:14
  Mukund: If I could go back when I started my business, I would tell myself-
• 20:21
  Sweta: Think about whether you wanna do the first business or second business.
• 20:24
  Mukund: Yeah, I was about to say, actually.
• 20:25
  Sweta: Maybe, maybe it might be more than one thing you might wanna say.
• 20:27
  Yeah.
• 20:28
  Yeah.
• 20:28
  'Cause I, I think that w- that given that you have two business,
• 20:30
  uh, experiences, I can see why.
• 20:32
  Mukund: I think, uh, if I go back and start my business or talk to myself
• 20:36
  in the beginning of starting this business, not my previous businesses,
• 20:40
  I would say that it's important to have incentive alignment with your investors
• 20:43
  and you in terms of your vision, right?
• 20:46
  Um, I love my investors.
• 20:47
  They took a bet on us, and it's working out, right?
• 20:50
  But, um, you know, where we wanna go, being aligned in the beginning of where
• 20:54
  we wanna go I think is very important.
• 20:57
  Um, especially when you're a first-time founder, uh, just
• 21:01
  raising your first round.
• 21:02
  You're willing to take money from basically anybody- Yeah
• 21:04
  as long as the money is green.
• 21:05
  And I think taking a step back to make sure, "Hey, are these the people who
• 21:09
  really understand what I'm building and what I want to build in the future?" Yeah.
• 21:13
  I think that's very important.
• 21:14
  Um, and I think taking that moment to pause.
• 21:16
  You know, you get the term sheet.
• 21:18
  Everyone goes crazy in the office.
• 21:19
  You're very excited.
• 21:20
  Yeah.
• 21:20
  And you sign, and then you're like, you know, a year later you're like,
• 21:24
  "I had options." You know what I mean?
• 21:25
  Yeah.
• 21:25
  Like, you can look back and do that.
• 21:27
  Sweta: Ab- absolutely.
• 21:27
  Yeah.
• 21:27
  So there's something that Caroline, who's one of the other founders in the series,
• 21:31
  had said that really resonated with me.
• 21:33
  She said, "Taking investment is not like getting a haircut, which it will grow
• 21:38
  out and it'll be painful if you get a bad haircut, but it's like getting a tattoo."
• 21:41
  Mukund: Yes.
• 21:42
  It,
• 21:42
  Sweta: it's, it's forever.
• 21:43
  I
• 21:43
  Mukund: need to talk to Caroline after this, I guess.
• 21:45
  Sweta: Yes, you do.
• 21:45
  And I thought, wow, that's really, really well put, right?
• 21:49
  Very true.
• 21:49
  Like, that is the severity of what we're talking about.
• 21:51
  Yes.
• 21:51
  And so we really appreciate that.
• 21:52
  That was v- great note to end on.
• 21:55
  Thank you so much- Of course.
• 21:56
  for joining us.
• 21:57
  Thank you for having me for joining us.
• 21:58
  Thank you.
• 21:58
  Oh my gosh, and I can't wait to hang out a little bit later.
• 22:00
  Mukund: Yeah.
• 22:00
  Let's do it.
• 22:01
  Sweta: Let's do it.
• 22:02
  So when you're first starting out a company, you're naive.
• 22:05
  You don't know what you don't know.
• 22:07
  And I tell current founders who are thinking about it, I'm like, "You know,
• 22:11
  I want you to know that this is very hard- and way harder than I thought.
• 22:16
  And, like, really think through, is this what you wanna do for the next
• 22:20
  decade to two decades of your life?