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What I've Learnt - Silva Mcleod · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, this is the life story of Silva McLeod, the first Tonga woman to become an airline pilot.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: She's still one of only a handful.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Told by Silva with frankness and wit, it's quite a story.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Silva takes us on a journey of cultural change from her beginnings as a poor island girl to her marriage to an Australian.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: The challenges of pursuing a flying career and its impact on her family are set against the backdrop of the love story of her life with her husband and his battle with cancer.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Silva MacLeod launched her memoir, Island Girl to Airline Pilot, in the Virgin Australian Lounge at Melbourne Airport Domestic Terminal, which is a very appropriate place to launch it.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: But copies of Silva's book Island Girl to Airline Pilot detail how she went from a small island to Tonga to the cockpit of Virgin's Boeing 77.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we're thrilled to have the very smart and clearly hardworking Silva McLeod.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the What I've Learned podcast.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Deb.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure about smart, but uh well you don't become a pilot unless you're pretty smart.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because maybe a lot of yeah, some people might think, oh, what is she doing?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: I literally bured my soul on my memoir.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you did.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it and you know what?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually what's so authentic and beautiful about it, is that you did do that and you were unflinching in your storytelling.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd like you to sort of start at the very beginning, um, really how you grew up, because I think our listeners will be very inspired about how everything is possible if you really want it to be.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Deb.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in a little village of Pangai Motu in the Babau group in Tonga.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Tonga is divided into three main groups.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: The northern part is Babao, the middle is Haapai, and the southern part is Nukalofa, where the international flights come to.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I was uh reared and raised, uh educated and all that up in the northern part.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: The village I grew up in, it's a tiny little village.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: It was about 200 population.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: You walk one way, you hit the water, the other is hit the water.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: So a life of an island girl in the 50s, 60s, when I was growing up, that's literally bound in this tiny little uh piece of land surrounded by the vast ocean.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: So there is not much future or beyond that.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I went to school there, uh, went right through to year 12, and uh so growing up in the island, everything is menor.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: There was no running water, there is no electricity, there's no a lot of people, you know, tell their story, and I'm not alone in that part.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just telling it how it was.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want sympathy.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm it was just yeah, you're grateful because obviously, and I, you know, from what I've read, I mean, obviously, there's an idyllic aspect to the nature part of it and living sort of framed by the ocean and a sense of simplicity and purity.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I suppose what you're saying is the reality is that fundamentals like utilities and and infrastructure were challenging, which impacted the way that you grew up.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: So while you could get the benefit of nature, being surrounded by nature and obviously a very close family, it had logistical issues, which had, I mean, it's interesting to me that you um say that you did year 12.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Where was the school and how how did that, you know?
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't understand.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was lucky enough to gain a scholarship.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I was a border with the nuns.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: So the little village island that I was in, it was connected by a causeway to the main island of Vabau group.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: So you either walk because there's no transport, or for those who are lucky enough like myself, I went and boarded in that little main town uh with the nuns in a Catholic school.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: So the boarding is not like luxurious like what you and I know now.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we go on a Monday morning and we come home on Friday night, spend the weekend with the um family, and then return.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: So every Monday morning you front up, and the the head nun will take us in, and you have to present yourself with a bag of food, a basket of food, a basket of firewood, and a basket of brown coconut.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to bring those three items every Monday.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's you keep your own, you have to do your own.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we did our own cooking.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a funny story to that, because when we peel our food and stuff, we actually have to etch our initial to our piece of taro or a piece of yam before we put it in the pot.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: So when we actually cooked it, you front up with your plate and you take the one with your initial.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not coming um to boarding school with say tapioca and you want to eat yam.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, so you have to eat so it really is, and it's interesting too because so was it hard?
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, what age were you when you first went to school?
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: All the way to year 12.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: And how hard was it to get that scholarship?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: At first, my grandparents, because I was reared by my grandparents, so I went to the year six, and my grandparents pay that school fee.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: But once you generate and have good marks, they will see potential, and then you'll go on scholarship.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the scholarship is like just free uh school fee.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: The rest, I still my parents still have you bring the baskets.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now tell me, you were raised by your grandparents.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me about that and why how that came to be.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: Is that common or is that something that it is quite common, but uh for every you know, broken families and all that, it's always the grandparents who pick up the pieces.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: So myself and my sister was reared by my grandparents, and I often speak about this with um such warmth and and so much love because my grandparents already had nine children, so with the two of us made 11.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Can you imagine 11 plus the grandparents that's 13?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Baker's dozen.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, I'll tell you what, you go through a lot of eggs because I there was no eggs.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's interesting.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there was no eggs.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, so how do how did Dave manage that?
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so you grew up with a very big family.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Just to clarify briefly, your parents clearly were not in the picture.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Can you just give us a little snapshot on that?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: Just to contextualize how this came to be.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Mum had other kids, and dad had other kids, and we finish up at my grandparents.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: So great snapshot version of that.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm hearing you.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so it was I am the oldest of 17.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: So mom had six more, dad had nine more.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I have 17 brothers and sisters.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, and I know all of them, all of their kids.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Extraordinary by my grandparents.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: So well, I tell you what, I yes, and I I'm I'm quite stunned at the I mean, it is really extraordinary.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: 17 children, even if I I understand the context, and then your grandmother taking you on board.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a fundamental, I suppose, cultural mission that if there is a child will always be taken in and looked after in the context of it, didn't matter how many there were, your parent, your grandparents stepped up.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: So is that in entrenched in how the community runs?
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, it's so true when they say um it takes a whole village to race a girl.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I often speak about this because I stole this from a former airline boss of mine, and he spoke of his experience of Tonga.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And he said he will always remember Tonga for the three F's F for family, food, and funeral.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Culturally, to him, uh, so big in family, we all love our food.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: We are big people, we celebrate everything, we look for something to celebrate so we can eat more food.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then funeral.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we celebrate death and we respect our death like no other culture I've seen.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when there is uh a funeral pass by, everyone stop, get off the road and pay your respect as a procession pass.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: So uh culturally in Tonga, uh, yes, family and of course reared by my grandparents.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um it there was no question asked.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, straight away, if that relationship doesn't work, that's where you're going to finish up.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Not even a question to say where could we go?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I often speak about my grandparents, we didn't have much.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: We did not have much.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have my very first pair of shoes until I was about 16 years old.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I I met uh some people from Australia, they came on a cruise ship and they saw my fate, and they offered to buy me a pair of shoes after I was a tour guide.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was at high school, they pick a few girls.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: When the cruise ship comes, we take them uh uh the tourists out for scenery uh drive.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And this was one of the people in my group offered to buy me a pair of shoes, so it was a pretty pivotal time, it was a very pivotal and and more than just the shoes.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you can tell us about that too, because that changed your life, really, didn't it?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, literally, and um, so for my grandparents, uh for very little they have, but I often refer to what I was lacking in material thing, it was top up with a lot of love, a lot of love, and that's evident by your I can hear that you have very sort of warm and fond memories of them, and that's clear in the book, and also of your upbringing, that that it was full of love and family and food.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, of course.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Don't forget the food.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: No, well, we're Jewish, so I'm like food is also a thing.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: We all love food.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about so that that uh person that gave you the pair of shoes, which was quite life-changing.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us what happened next because it's a great story.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, when they gave me the the pair of shoes, they wanted me to uh pee a pen pal to their daughter, and they asked me what I wanted to do, and I said I wanted to be a doctor.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: And uh they said, Oh, our daughter wanted to be a nurse.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Would you like to be a nurse?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I go, Oh, well, you know, close doctor, nurse.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I have to start somewhere.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: And these people were generous enough to offer to educate me, fund me to come to Australia.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I started uh communicating with this daughter of them, as well as the parents, and one thing led to another, we sort of lost contact.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: But you came to Australia, you were in Australia at this point.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: How were you?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Were you you worked, I'm assuming, to because you you obviously had landed in Australia, but you had some support from them.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: But once you lost contact, you were sort of on your own.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: How old were you?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: I lost contact when I was still in Tonga.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, in okay, right.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I was still at school when we sort of lost contact.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: In Tonga, if there's a cyclone come, it wipes out the house, goes the contact and everything that was in the house.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you just so that was when you were how old?
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, probably 66.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I remember really and uh so anyway.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh when we came here to Australia, we tried to find them.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I still remember the name, I remember the town they lived in.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: You're not going to believe it, but I actually located the girl, the daughter, but it was too late for mom and dad.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's such a shame.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they were with you in Australia at that time.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: They were up in Queensland.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: So uh the the lady Helen was still alive, but uh she suffered dementia and she was already in a care.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the husband already passed on, so I liaised with the daughter.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Susie was the one that I uh was pen pal with.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: And when Helen passed away, I felt this strong urge that I needed to close that chapter.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: I needed to show my respect because I was trying.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: My husband put a uh notice in the paper in Queensland of trying to locate them, but apparently they did move town, and that's probably why it was hard.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: So uh believe it or not, I found a daughter, Susie, on Facebook.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was never on Facebook before.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, um, I flew up to Queensland for the funeral, and I felt This is later, yeah, much later, obviously.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: So just going back to when you first come to us, came to Australia, so there was a cyclone, you lost a lot of possessions, and and it was quite traumatic.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: You came to Australia aged how old, 17, 18?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: No, I grew up, I work in Tonga until I met Ken.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so let's talk about Ken.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: This is very important.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, for our listeners, you better tell the story of Ken because it's very important.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, after high school, of course, there was no university, there's no job, there's no future.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the outside world was sort of not existing to us.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: We had no um access to television or newspaper or anything like that.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: The radio was only on every now and again when my grandparents can afford battery to put in.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so I went for a job because when I finished high school, I was so worried that I might be married off or you know, be pressured to get married because um in the Tongan world, pregnancy outside wedlock, it's round upon big time.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So the only way that they will probably push us through is to get married, find a husband, have a family, and the life cycle of being an islander continues.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: But Ken landed in Tonga as part of the Australian aid team.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: They came to build a hospital for my island, and he was the electrician.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: So at the time I was working as a bartender at the only hotel in the whole island.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: So strike up the conversation.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: So like a movie, isn't it?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: It really is like Mills and Boons, isn't it?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Strike up the conversation, you just have to buy the book and read the finer details.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: The book is just like riveting, it's just an extraordinary.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it does feel like a film, the way you anyway.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: So Ken, so you're working in the hotel, Ken arrives as the electrician to be to work on the building the hospital.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, a hospital and a field depot.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: So Ken was there for nearly two years.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: We literally, you know, uh hit off straight away.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we were courting and all that, and eventually, one weak moment of mine, because I always have this fantasy about aeroplanes.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: So when I met Ken, and I never told a soul about that fantasy to fly.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I confide in Ken one afternoon, Sunday afternoon, and he said, Well, there's no time frame.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: You you know, you should be able to get that.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: But of course, we got married in Tonga in my traditional talk about culture and family.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And uh this is a funny story.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Ken and I got married, and he said to me, it took him three times to propose before I actually say yes, because I didn't really think a foreigner could really cope with our culture.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: So the first time I thought it was a joke.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: The second time I thought, oh, he wasn't on his knees.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, I think you better think long and hard because to marry me, it's probably like marry the mafia.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: You have to marry mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, and auntie and uncle and family, yeah.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's not just me.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: I come with a whole crew.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you think you can cope with that, then maybe.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: So he came back the third time.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: He was on his knees, but no ring, which is okay.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: No ring was okay.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: Did you say?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: Did you say it was okay without a ring?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because there was no rings in Tonga, there was no jewelry shop, nothing.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, and I didn't mind that at all.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: He told me that all his friends have nice rings.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: When we come back to Australia, we will have, you know, to go shopping, blah, blah, blah.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we knew, or I knew, that we were going to get married in a traditional way, because once a couple get married in Tonga, it's off your hand, the family and the village took over.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: So Ken said to me, Please don't make me wear a mat.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I just said, Okay.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know I would be able to say no.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: So came the day they split us into each corner of the this little hut for the mat wrapping ceremony.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's layers and layers and layers of mat.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I was busy with about three women on my side, there's three women on his corner.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And next minute I can hear him.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: He used to call me Leva.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: And he was yelling out, Leva, Leva, and I look over.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: And these women were trying to split his legs to open his legs.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: And he's saying, What are they doing?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I was taking the Mickey out of him, and I said, Well, if you still want to get married, you better split him.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so he ended up in the mat anyway, and the matting and the culture, but but obviously with good humor, and clearly, I'm assuming it was a beautiful day, and it was and he embraced the cultural.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: He loved it.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: I thought afterwards he, you know, he used to tell people years and years later, because we have a big photo of us in the lounge room, and he used to tell people, I got married in a skirt.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, he probably did.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: With no shoes.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's wonderful.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: I I just he sounds such a lovely man.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then from there, you move to Australia, and the most incredible thing is your dream of flying starts to become a reality.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Talk to me about how you ended up as a pilot.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I mean, it is really incredible from this backdrop of an island life.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: Since that afternoon, I disclosed my fantasy.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: I call it my fantasy because it is never gonna happen.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: A dream is something you might get and you work towards it.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think a fantasy is just some little creature running around in your head.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I thought.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we came to Australia, and you know, you become a wife very quickly, you become a mother very quickly, and life itself just took off, and that fantasy gone to the back burner.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we have kids to raise, we have mortgage to pay bills as well, and the general living in Australia, can you imagine coming with uh from Tonga with no electricity and all that?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many uh machines and contraptions here that it's all electrically driven, and I have to learn, I have to learn how to use a washing machine.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't have a driving license, I've never been inside a motor car.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: I was in the back of a truck, but never been in a motor car.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: So there was so much for me to comprehend, even the language barrier.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I spoke a few English, obviously, to understand with Ken, but not quite fluent.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it was some 10 years after we got married, and a bombshell hit our family when Ken was diagnosed with his cancer.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then all of a sudden, he goes, Do you still want to fly?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Go get it.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Life is too short.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I go, Whoa, where did that come from?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: But he thought of you, he thought of you in his moment of challenge.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, they always say when there is some life changing thing happen to our life, we tend To uh revisit mortality in a way.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I really believe he thought that was the end, and he wanted to make sure that I fulfill my fantasy or dream, as well as doing something I really wanted to do, and also enough perhaps to fund myself and look after myself and the kids.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: So then I just brush it off again because we have chemotherapy to go and all that to fight for his life.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh back to the kids did you have at this point?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: I needed two girls.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna quite young.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Ken was approached 40, he was only 35, very young.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: He was diagnosed, and um so anyway, once Ken sort of bounced back, he gifted me a voucher, an introductory flight,$20 worth.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I often joke, and I'm never sick of joking about this.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: I knew I was cheap, but I didn't think I was that cheap.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was$20.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think it became a very expensive present at the end.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm sure.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Little did you know what door it opened, but yeah, yes.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: But that's where my flying started, you know.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: When Ken first uh mentioned it, they were selfish butterfly in my stomach, thinking this could be my moment, but I had to suppress it until Ken is back to life because I had no idea how we were going to fund it.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: We have two kids on one income.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: So uh, of course, once I took that introductory flight, I think as Ken put it, he had created a monster on that day because I was hooked with I came out after the debrief.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: I myself with headset, I have my own aircraft manual kit, and we didn't have, as I said, and I said again, no money for me to go to flying school.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And when can I do that when the kids were little?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I self-study.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: All my licenses are self-studied.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you're actually incredible.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, how do you do that?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: You do that online?
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, there's no such thing in online then.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you do all your study through and you make manuals ready, manually, books, manuals, exercise, and all that.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then once you think you're ready, you go to a flying school, and then they will order the exam from Civil Aviation Canberra, and it comes and you sit there under a supervision, and then um, you know afterwards whether you pass.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: And they are only the theory part, and um yeah, I think I can proudly say that I am an avid reader, I didn't mind schooling, I love study, and when I study in a mature age, I see it differently.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: I study with an understanding.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: When I was at high school, I reckon I study by rote, just remembering everything to pass an exam.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, in an adult life, you take to it differently.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, and that's how we progress.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: We just keep chipping away at it, license after license, because it's not just one license, and we didn't know that.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: How long did it take you to get to the stage where you were a pilot that could fly a virgin plane?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Probably five years, five to six years, all up, because you have your your first license, you you study, you fly, you go solo, and then you get your first license, which is a restricted uh pilot license.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: So you only allow in certain perimeter, then you go unrestricted, so where you go navigating out to places and stuff, but still can't earn any money, and then you go and get commercial license, and even commercial license, you can start charging.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: The flying school can use you for charters, but nothing else.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I went further and become an instructor, so I can instruct students and all that, yeah.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: But to get the top license, the airline license, where it enables you to be, or that's when you become an airline pilot license holder.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's the top, top one, and that will enable you to be a captain, it will enable you to fly big planes, it needs a lot more hours.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I've done all the theory and everything, but I had to wait because they wanted 2,000 hours.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to really get the opportunity.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a few things I'm interested in is first of all, they're not how many female pilots, let alone one from Tonga.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's not, it's still only about 5% here in Australia.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: Even at Virginia Australia, we do have a good, you know, amount of female pilots, but in proportion with the male pilots, it's still significantly smaller.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 5% is a very small amount when you consider in other workplaces it's it's tapping 40 to 50 percent, it's getting better, but I think it's a it's seen as a very much a main domain, isn't it?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: As a man's domain.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's like so.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: For you, do you tell me what it what it means to you and why why is flying so important?
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: What what what is it that that flying gives you and and where do you think that comes from?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: As I mentioned from an early stage as a kid, when I hear uh a zooming of an aeroplane, out I go.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was that fascination, that fantasy of looking at this thing, how could this machine sustain itself up there in the air?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: How clever these people are operating.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's incredible how they find themselves from one country to another.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: That was all this question that ran through my head, and it built from there.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: So, of course, I took my very first introductory flight.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: That airborne, you know, just getting airborne, it it probably the best, my most favorite phase of flying is applying power, the speed build up, and you lift off, you almost feel weightless, you define gravity, the freedom.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I feel like, oh, can you can I imagine just burst out of this aeroplane and just fly like a bird?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that freedom is yeah, nothing.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then further down the track, when you get to bigger plane and bigger plane, and you go to uh different countries and you're being up there airborne, and you look around and you go, Wow, what an office! That view from my office change every day.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: And how lucky am I to have an office at 38,000 feet?
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you're not wrong there.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, for those of us who sometimes get nervous flying, that's a really beautiful vision that I actually love the lens that you've put on that.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: You should do that.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: You need to take some of those, you know, a calls for people who get afraid of flying, because actually, what you've painted is a really beautiful picture and a different perspective.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And when you actually listen to you, it's very uplifting and inspiring.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Was there a point where you were fearful or afraid of what you were doing or your capacity to do what you were doing?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Or were you always pretty single-minded and I can do this?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: I always know I can do it, but there's a borderline of being cocky and knowing you can do it, and you have to hammer it down to the belief you can do it.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: The minute you go over to the cockiness, that's when you're gonna come undone.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: So there are many times, of course, I think there is a healthy aspect to feel a certain, because I think that really shows you respect the sky, you respect it's only a man-made machine to have that little element of fear, but it's not so much of fear because once you get to know what you're doing, you will start having planned for the worse.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you you get into the aircraft, you're so busy with getting your flight plan, weather, and everything got all done.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: And once you have a moment to sit down, straight away in my mind, I've already started planning.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: In the event of a failure, what do I do?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not a fear.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think uh there's something it's a caution.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: You're saying it's more like about being, it's a bit like I I can only imagine that it's a bit like when we get in a car.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: After a while, you really know what you're doing, but you're still like, I better put my seatbelt on.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: I need to be prepared, not be on the phone, don't get distracted, or you know, there's an element where I think we all to some degree do that just in our day-to-day lives.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is it similar to that?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: That sort of it is, and it isn't, because I think that getting in the car is something we do all the time.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's yeah.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: If something goes wrong, you'll pull up in an aeroplane.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Every time you get in an aircraft, okay, which airport am I in?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Where are the mountains here?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: Where's the water?
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you draw a picture in your head.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: So um it, yeah, but it is similar in a different scale.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: You can't pull over at this point unless you really have to, and that means landing at an airport nearby.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: There is something that I always remember, I heard on the radio, and I think it was an ad, but it was quite catchy, and it says the future belongs to the ready.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't remember where that ad or who was doing that ad, but it's saying the future belongs to the ready.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I always thought it's so true, because if it's not ready, I won't be having a future.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that would be a fair assessment of the situation, and I think that makes a lot of sense.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and for you, how often are you flying?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: And how often, I mean, obviously, how long have you been flying for in terms of years?
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: 33 years now.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: I've been flying.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, with the COVID-19 uh in 2020, I lost two love of my life.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: I lost Ken first in June, and then I lost and my wings got clipped in October, the same year, 2020.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: So Virgin, yes, Virgin Australia International Long Haul, which is what I was doing, uh, came undone and was grounded, and there is no chance of getting back to that one.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, to go and fly international, you have to be 65 or less pushing up to that.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, however, in our redundancy package, we have a clause in there that we have the right to return to Virgin Australia in any capacity of flying up until 2026.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, Virgin Australia has called me on the first intake in July last year.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I had a little bit of issue with medical.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's uh attached to uh another sickness, it's called age.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yep.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I am still in, yeah, I'm still in the process of trying to regain my medical, and then I'll make a decision whether I will return to the domestic or not, because I already done all that.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: I've flown uh 737 long time before I got onto the Triple 7.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Very interesting because, in a way, it raises so many issues, doesn't it, about the longevity of pilots, whether you're male or female.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: The I mean, obviously, uh many people were tipped upside down by the COVID-19 situation.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: It made everything a little strange for a lot of people.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what this is bringing to light is, you know, 65, you're still capable, you're still incredibly skilled.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, you're wise beyond many people in terms of your experience.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it'd be very interesting to see how that plays out and what things are in place to ensure that people like yourself could continue at least for a period of time beyond that.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Australia, thankfully, we don't have age discrimination.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I can fly domestically within Australian water for as long as I want, as long as I pass my international.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's the international, yeah.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: And Australia didn't inflict that rules.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's really good to hear because I think you know, we we I mean, you've invested enormous time, money, energy to be good at what you do.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it seems a shame to not tap that.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like Australia Virgin is allowing you to fly domestically, but international is more complex.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what you're saying?
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Not gonna happen.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not only me, it's right across the world.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's across the board.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: And and in terms of trailblazing and being a female and also coming from a different background, do you think things are changing in the airline industry in terms of what is is becoming more accessible to women and to people of colours?
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't put myself in that category of trailblazing because there were some pioneer in aviation way ahead of my time.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I have come across uh Deborah Laurie, which is the Deborah, another Deborah, Deb.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: A pilot Deb.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she was the Deb Wardley uh slash Laurie now, and uh she was the one who took NSET to court all the way to the High Court and won over a gender discrimination.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: They are the trailblazer of women in aviation, and I take my hat off to those who paved the path for the like of myself.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Things change definitely, definitely.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think even in the 30 years I've been in the industry from then to now, it's more accessible, it's uh more acceptable, um, there is a lot of respect in the fly deck.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: You still come across the odd ones and go, oh dear, but you will find it in any industry, in in any you know, uh path of life, you will find that kind of people that you just can't change.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we talk about racism, sexism, and all that.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: We've been talking ourselves to death about the subject.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: There will still be that one person, you know, bully and and abuse and all the political.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to go into that, but as an example, we've talked about it for years.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's great, it's all come out of the closet, and you can talk openly about it, but there will always be that one.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: There will always be.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's true.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I'll tell you what I think is really interesting, and I think what you're doing is a really good example.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: You've just got on and shown what you can do.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I know many other women who sometimes it's about fighting it in a court or fighting it on the political sphere, but sometimes it's just about doing what you need to do to showcase what we can do.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you've lived the life.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: You've you've you know, you've said, this is what I know I can do, coming from.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you couldn't even speak English when you first arrived to Australia.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: And look at you, you're so articulate.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, your book is incredibly um easy to read.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: You've created a, I think to your credit, and you should own that, is that sometimes you just walk the talk, you're actually living and actioning, and you're a great role model for many other women, particularly young women who would maybe want to be pilots or go into the aviation industry.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, but as you said, you know, sometimes actions speak louder than words.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think also, as you and I were just talking about, sometimes it's also not so easy because some of the racist elements really affect young people.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: What's your insight into that?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's people are different, and it's very, very hard because some will take it so seriously and they will recede and go into a corner.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: But I really believe we need to teach these people as well that they can't control what comes from the other way.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: They can only control what they receive and how they interpret it.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yes.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I think it's really, really important to focus on okay, I'll just shut up here.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: I will show you how it's done, and your action will definitely speak louder.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: And once you do that, people will leave you alone.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'd like to thank you so much for joining us.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: You've been an absolute joy to talk to, and I just think I just hope you fly high because you deserve it, and we are very inspired by your story.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Dev.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: Pleasure.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for listening.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind and curious.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: Love that.