Latest / Coffee People Podcast / Emily Smith, Hacea Coffee Source

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Emily Smith, Hacea Coffee Source · Coffee People Podcast

0:00
Call from OPB. They wanted reaction to the
0:03
tariff thing. I was like, all right.
0:07
OK, and I'm just for you. This is my bad side.
0:11
Oh, OK. Because I didn't trim my beard
0:12
properly on that. Perfect.
0:14
I'm in my gym clothes. Your beard life is good.
0:18
Quite the pair. I decided to wear a shirt with
0:21
my own face on it today. I know, I noticed.
0:25
That which I as I was like, it's the first time I've ever worn it
0:28
and I was as I was on the train. I'm like, this is kind of
0:30
obnoxious. Oh, I like.
0:32
It I like it a lot. It's kind of kind of rude.
0:35
People think I'm just like obsessed with my own face.
0:39
What am I doing here? Hi, it's recording, just so you
1:09
know, officially. I thank you for inviting me in
1:12
and for this coffee which I'm drinking from Hosea.
1:16
You didn't tell me where it's from.
1:17
Yeah. So that is a Guatemala Pakamara
1:21
wash process from Finca El Mirador.
1:25
Yeah, cool. It's going to be the next next
1:28
edition on our Roast Approach blog to help roasters gain some
1:32
perspective on how to roast it. Well, that's part of the reason
1:36
I'm here is because I'll do some pandering.
1:41
I find you to be very intelligent both in coffee and
1:44
out, and someone I enjoy hearing your opinions on.
1:48
And so I read those roast approach blogs even though I
1:52
don't roast, which I think it's kind of just knowledge that goes
1:54
in and out. The only time that I'm going to
1:56
ask you to do this today, the only time to look at the camera.
1:59
Could you tell everyone who you are, where you work, and what
2:02
your job is there? My name's Emily Smith and I work
2:05
with Hosea Coffee Source. I am a Technically I think my
2:11
title is Relationship Representative.
2:13
I saw that. It's like one of my first
2:15
questions. What does that mean?
2:17
You know, we're a really small team and everybody does a little
2:21
bit of everything. So I my little bit of everything
2:25
is sales education, especially the online educational content
2:30
that we create. Very cool.
2:32
Yeah. Jesse has been supporting this
2:34
show and I, I just consider those guys the Hales brothers
2:37
friends as well as you. Hopefully, hopefully you feel
2:40
the same. I don't want to assume we're
2:42
here at the Buckman Coffee Factory in Portland, OR.
2:46
Jesse has based at Anaheim. Yes, a coastal empire is
2:51
building. We have Jose Coffee behind us.
2:55
So we should get started with the Coffee People podcast.
2:57
Sure, let's do it. OK, who are you, Emily?
3:01
Well, I'm Emily. I've been in I've been in coffee
3:07
for I think maybe I think 14 years, if you don't count like a
3:14
a stint of coffee, that of coffee time, barista time.
3:18
I did when I was in college. But for the last 14 years and
3:23
yeah, I work with been with Jose coffee source for two years,
3:28
going on the third year now. I've been in coffee green coffee
3:33
side with trading and sales for the last 7-8 years.
3:42
And before that I did some roasting, I did some educational
3:45
work, did some retail side, you know, a little bit of retail
3:51
management and yeah and and quality control.
3:56
I did quality control for a few years in there as well.
3:59
So I often tell people it's it's pretty hard to find something in
4:03
coffee that I haven't done, but if you find it, let me know so I
4:07
can put it on the you. Can add it to your resume.
4:09
I can add it in. If you look at your resume,
4:12
which I did in preparation for this, one of the first things on
4:15
there is that you were actually in a different career before
4:18
this. Yeah, For a couple of years at
4:21
least. I'm assuming you came out of
4:23
college and started something. What was that?
4:26
What was the process like of getting started in the world in
4:29
your career and then deciding to leave it for coffee?
4:32
Yeah, so I during college and then right outside of college, I
4:37
worked in health, Human Services and mental health.
4:41
I worked, I like to joke that I've worked with the same
4:45
population of people for the last 20 years.
4:50
So I worked at a facility that worked with teenagers who were
4:54
in mental health crisis. And then I went into case
4:58
management for, for kids who were in state custody,
5:04
especially worked with teenagers.
5:05
That's kind of my, my, my niche got to a point where working
5:10
with them, I realized that. So working in Human Services and
5:17
being a case manager, often times it meant that nobody was
5:21
happy to see me. Like if I, if I'm you're seeing
5:24
me, something has gone very wrong.
5:27
If I'm knocking at your door, people are not happy to open it,
5:32
right. So that was my life for many
5:36
years and I really, I got to a point where I was like, I just
5:42
want to, I just want to be somewhere where people are happy
5:44
to see me. So as a, when I worked as a case
5:48
manager, I used to like in between stopping at clients
5:51
houses and doing inspections and checking in on people, I would
5:54
go to Starbucks and I just, I just wanted that moment where
5:58
the barista smiles at you and it's like seems happy that you
6:03
that you walk through the door. Yeah, you've given them a
6:05
moment. Yeah, for me, like that was so
6:09
important to me. And so I had a little bit of
6:14
knowledge of coffee. My husband and I went to a
6:18
coffee farm in Costa Rica on our honeymoon.
6:20
And so I kind of had this very romantic idea of like what, what
6:24
coffee was like. And so I thought, OK, if I'm
6:28
going to make a career switch, I want to get into coffee.
6:32
I want to work with farmers. I want to work with all of this
6:35
cool stuff that is involved with coffee.
6:38
I had no idea how to do that. So I quit my job and went and
6:45
worked for Starbucks. I applied to my, my local
6:48
Starbucks and got a job as a, as a shift man shift leader, you
6:56
know, kind of like this mid level, like kind of running
7:00
things in the store. And in my, in my interview, they
7:05
asked me, you know, why do you want to work for Starbucks?
7:10
And I was like, I want to work with coffee farmers.
7:13
And they're like, OK, crazy, like, come on aboard.
7:20
But I had that drive of of that was always my end goal of where
7:25
I wanted to be was working with the people who were producing
7:29
coffee. I just had no idea how to do
7:31
that. So went and worked, joined the
7:34
team at Starbucks and started my coffee career there.
7:39
So then because you've mentioned all the different things that
7:41
you've done and all the different roles you've had, how
7:43
did that grow from first day in the job, wide eyed barista shift
7:48
leader to actually getting to that point where you felt
7:52
comfortable or you had the opportunity to work with a farm?
7:56
It was a lot of work. Be afraid you I I would think
7:59
like there's a risk of getting trapped in that.
8:02
Yeah, so I I started with the retail side of Starbucks and
8:07
which I think is where so many really amazing coffee
8:11
professionals start. I started there, worked my way
8:17
up into the, the retail side and was a assistant store manager
8:23
When I started playing around with roasting coffee, My friend
8:27
who was also the store manager, him and I went half and half in
8:30
on AB more roaster. And we were like, have these
8:33
little roasting sessions. We were roasted dark, oily beans
8:36
at home and like, yeah, like so, so good.
8:41
And then I, I started going to some specialty shops and started
8:47
hanging out over with the guys at Dapper and wise in Hillsboro
8:52
when they first opened their tasting room and I would just go
8:54
and hang out and, and sit there. And then they invited me to a
8:59
couple of cuppings. And so then I, I went and cupped
9:02
coffee with them and brought my own coffee that I had roasted.
9:06
So that kind of like had started everything.
9:08
And as that was all going on, you know, I'm still assistant
9:11
manager with Starbucks. I had AI had a meeting with our
9:16
district manager and you know, he was like, Emily, what do you
9:20
want to do? You like, you're so passionate
9:22
about coffee, what do you want to do?
9:24
And I told him, I have this idea that in the future, Starbucks is
9:32
going to open a store that has a that's roasting coffee and
9:38
they're embracing specialty coffee.
9:41
And it's going to be this place that like brings it all
9:46
together, like brings together the whole experience of
9:49
specialty coffee, but in a very Starbucks sort of way.
9:53
And within a month of us having that sit down meeting, Starbucks
9:58
had announced that they were recruiting for the Reserve
10:01
Roastery, that they were going to open up in Seattle.
10:04
So he put my name in as a management candidate for the
10:09
Reserve Roastery and I got picked to go up and be part of
10:15
the opening team. I've never been a believer in
10:17
manifestation, but that feels very manifesting.
10:20
Yeah, I. Do you also carry a crystal at
10:22
all times like what is happening?
10:24
Here, couple crystal balls. Yeah, so.
10:28
But so that was that was a really wild adventure.
10:34
The other thing that I did when I was at Starbucks, I figured, I
10:39
figured out like the naming convention of the emails, like,
10:42
and I found out that there was this person at Starbucks who was
10:47
because I, I was also getting into watching all of the barista
10:51
competitions and the, the coffee competitions.
10:54
And I found out there's this person that Starbucks who was
10:58
really good at cup tasting. Her name's Amanda Juris.
11:02
And I figured out how what her e-mail was from this naming
11:05
convention. And so I was sending emails out
11:08
into the ether like never having met her.
11:11
And she responded back. And I took a trip up to Seattle
11:15
and really did like my first real cupping with the quality
11:20
control team at the corporate office in Seattle with, you
11:27
know, I think we had maybe probably 500 cups of Brazilian
11:33
coffee, all Brazilian coffee. And that was like my first, like
11:38
real big. Did that set like a standard
11:41
then like the next time you did the like that to me, like I'm
11:44
thinking about like the most professional impressive cuppings
11:47
I've done, not to that scale. It just gave me such a different
11:51
perspective of what what coffee was.
11:55
And when you're cupping 500 cups of Brazil coffee that should all
12:03
have the same spec, there's a wide variety of flavors that
12:07
come up on that table. And and it was just such an
12:12
incredible experience, but it was like a little bit of
12:16
beginning hustle. I don't want to assume you've
12:19
lost this. How long did that?
12:23
I want to work with coffee farmers.
12:25
Emily last or how long did you kind of adjust into?
12:29
Because like to me, if I start cupping and it's like 500, if
12:33
it's fifty, I can get cynical real quick or maybe judgmental
12:38
real quick. You know, how long did you did
12:41
you keep that motivation all the way through?
12:43
Did it stay strong? Or was there a period where you
12:47
were like, oh, this is? Intense.
12:49
There are definitely moments in this industry where I feel very
12:53
salty and jaded about things that happen, but that
13:00
particular, you know, continued Dr. I would say that that's one
13:05
of my special talents is being able to maintain that.
13:12
When the Reserve Grocery opened in Seattle, I was on what they
13:16
call the experience bar doing siphons, bring siphons for
13:20
people. And I would do brew one of these
13:26
it coffee experiences after another over and over and over
13:29
again. And at some point in time,
13:31
somebody from one, I think like the Seattle Guardian or like one
13:35
of the local newspapers had sat down and they actually wrote
13:39
about my unending enthusiasm because I guess they just hung
13:44
out and just watched me do this for hours on end, like repeating
13:47
over and over and over again. They wrote about my unending
13:52
enthusiasm for, for talking about coffee.
13:56
And I think I haven't lost that. I definitely get salty and
14:01
jaded. And there are moments where I'm
14:02
like, this industry is definitely something, but my
14:09
overall like passion for it and passion for the producers and
14:15
the people who are really like the people who are in the
14:18
industry that I definitely haven't lost at all.
14:24
On that note, do you remember when coffee came into your life,
14:27
or do you have a memory of coffee from when you were?
14:30
I I do. Before, like this was like your
14:32
life and your career, but what's that?
14:34
First experience with coffee was in college.
14:37
It was my freshman year. I was down in Southern
14:42
California at a small school called Azusa Pacific University,
14:46
and Azusa Pacific University had a Starbucks that was like right
14:50
next door. And this was the time when there
14:53
were just not coffee shops anywhere.
14:55
Like we had a Starbucks next door and then the next closest
14:58
one was in Pasadena. That was it, right?
15:02
So like 30 minutes until the next Starbucks during finals
15:06
week, that Starbucks next to the campus would stay open 24 hours
15:11
for all the students. And so I remember I went with my
15:15
roommates and we went to the Starbucks.
15:17
I'd never had coffee before, but I really needed caffeine because
15:20
I was like all night studying. And so I went up to the counter
15:25
and I, I said, can I get a hot chocolate?
15:28
But can you put like a shot of coffee in it?
15:31
And then barista looked at me like dead in the face and was
15:34
like, so a mocha. I was like, is that a mocha?
15:38
Like that's so cool. I would like one of those.
15:42
And that was my, that was my first, my first time.
15:44
Having coffee, I think that was my mistake because I wasn't
15:47
studying in college so I never drank any coffee.
15:51
I was mostly drinking Downers. I think is probably more
15:54
appropriate. Yeah, no, I coffee was it was
15:58
all about it after that moment. Right in so you, you get into
16:02
that point and you're, you're on the front lines, so to speak.
16:05
You're serving, you're talking about coffee, you're learning
16:08
more. You're in a place that has the
16:10
resources to help you learn more to some extent.
16:12
When does that transition into actually working on this side of
16:16
things a little bit more or that first kind of like back to the
16:19
farm experience, so to speak? Yeah.
16:21
So I, it was, it was tough. I like, it was a very, very
16:28
difficult time. I was in that position doing the
16:32
retail management side, but also exposed to people who are
16:36
roasting coffee all the time and talking about coffee all the
16:39
time. And I got to hang out with the
16:41
people who are on the global coffee team and they would come
16:44
and like actually work a shift with us.
16:47
So I was, I had that exposure and I realized like, I really
16:52
want to jump out of this retail side and get into the, the
16:55
coffee side. And so I tried to get in on the
17:02
roasting side and I got like every door shut in my face.
17:06
So I found a coffee roaster that was nearby and I rented out time
17:14
on his machine and I bought green coffee off the Internet
17:17
and would take it in and roast coffee and like, don't you know,
17:25
just like kind of at cost sell it to my friends and family to
17:29
try to recoup. You know, I wasn't trying to
17:30
start a coffee business or anything like that.
17:33
I just wanted to get experience roasting coffee and, and then I
17:38
started looking for opportunities.
17:41
I had had some cupping experience.
17:43
I had had, you know, a little bit of quality control
17:46
experience. I, I had that experience tasting
17:50
every defect under the sun on those like Brazilian tables.
17:55
So I had that and I found a job that was a job posting for a
18:02
quality control position. And I knew that my resume in no
18:07
way was going to impress somebody who was hiring for this
18:12
position. Like, I really want it.
18:14
There's no way that I'm qualified for it.
18:17
So I took a bag of coffee that I had roasted and I printed my
18:21
resume on a label and attached it to the bag of coffee.
18:26
And I brought that in with the hard paper copy of my, of my
18:33
resume, you know, applied to the job and I got a call and they
18:38
were so impressed that that I would do that.
18:41
It was enough to like, you know, get their attention.
18:44
And I ended up getting getting the job.
18:48
And so for three years I worked as a quality control
18:53
specializing in the sensory quality of and green coffee
18:58
quality for a large roasting operation is a like a white
19:04
label kind of facility. And we did about 15,000,000 lbs
19:12
of coffee a year. And I did all of the green
19:15
coffee quality control and then all of the sensory quality
19:19
control for roasted coffee. They gave me the freedom to
19:24
really grow and to learn how to lab.
19:27
I mean, it was, it was, it was awesome.
19:30
It was like such a time of growth and that really stepped
19:33
me up, I think for all of the things that would would come.
19:38
Sure. I want to take just a quick
19:40
break and double check that this is working.
19:43
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we're back. It's amazing how it's just like
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seamless when someone sees it, they'll be like nothing ever
20:19
changed. He looks different now.
20:23
So you you have this this brilliant period of growth in
20:27
part because you were able to get someone's attention.
20:30
I wonder a lot about that little digression in our current era of
20:34
trying to find a job for people where all of our resumes are
20:37
filtered and having those creative ideas may not get
20:41
through anymore, which I think is unfortunate because you learn
20:46
more about people that way. But where do you know?
20:49
You spend, I think you said three years or so.
20:53
What? Where does that?
20:54
How do you get from there to where you are now, where you
20:57
have this fancy office and this big space to work in and all
21:00
this coffee that you're in charge of?
21:02
Yeah. So I, after doing the quality
21:05
control, I did a little bit of work with a company called
21:09
Roaster Tools where I was helping to bring some of those
21:12
productivity and efficiency models that I saw in the really
21:18
large roasting operations, helping to bring that to smaller
21:21
roasters and helping them to find ways to yeah, to, to build
21:28
efficiencies within their, within their programs.
21:31
And I was also like, the whole thing was hustle, hustle,
21:36
hustle. I was working easily six days a
21:40
week, sometimes seven days a week.
21:42
So when I wasn't working full time at those jobs, I was on the
21:47
weekends. I came here to the Buckman
21:49
Coffee factory. I was working on the weekends
21:51
helping to do roaster education and get roasters set up on, on
21:54
the machines and supervise the roasting floor.
21:57
I did some roast education trainings with Mike Nelson. him
22:03
and I Co taught like introduction to roasting classes
22:08
together and then I ended up getting a a head roaster
22:13
position with a company called World Cup Coffee that does kind
22:18
of like office coffee service in the Portland area.
22:22
So I was then I was buying coffee and roasting coffee and
22:28
from there that was the spot where I left that position and
22:32
got into working as a green coffee trader.
22:35
Sure. It's kind of like the opposite
22:36
side of the coin, right, The forward facing customer.
22:40
Yes, it's a different customer. You're still working with
22:42
customers, but it's on the backside of things through all
22:46
of this. And we'll, we'll get to the
22:48
ending at some point, I'm sure. But I know that your mom, how do
22:54
you find time to have a family during this period and how do
22:57
you find that balance? I think that I always think
23:00
about that. I don't have kids of my own and
23:03
I think about how much, how crazy, just the the time, the
23:07
schedule, the amount of time that you devote to these things.
23:09
How did that impact you or how? Did it come about?
23:11
It's really hard. When we moved up to Seattle to
23:15
do the job at, for me to take the job at the Reserve Grocery,
23:19
I had a six month old baby and a three-year old and I guess she
23:23
was 4, so 6 months and, and four years old.
23:26
I was. And then when I was up, when the
23:30
grocery finally opened, I was working like 70 hours a week and
23:34
I would work and then I'd come home at I'd get home at like
23:39
2:00 or 3:00 in the morning, sleep for two hours and then be
23:43
up with babies and getting everybody to daycare and then
23:48
going back to work like that was my every single day.
23:52
And it was terrible. It, I got the sickest I've ever
23:56
been in my life and it was so hard.
24:00
I have a really, really supportive partner who just gave
24:04
me unending support through all of this.
24:07
I think he saw, he also saw it as us investing in in the in the
24:15
future and building the career. But I will say, I think I think
24:21
moms have it really, really hard in this industry.
24:23
I think overall women have it really, really hard in this
24:26
industry. One of the things, you know, as
24:32
a mom, like I couldn't take any shifts that people were offering
24:35
me. And they're like, oh, well, if
24:37
you want to get into roasting, then you need to, you know, get
24:41
some experience. Well, I can't get experience
24:44
unless you pay me to do these things because it's, you know,
24:49
I, I just, I don't have all of this time.
24:52
And I saw people who didn't have families who were able to take
24:58
huge opportunities that presented themselves, you know,
25:02
that depend needed extra flexibility in their schedule.
25:06
And you know, I think that was also a time when we saw in these
25:11
coffee competitions, it was very male dominated and almost you
25:18
just like you didn't see, you didn't see moms.
25:20
You didn't see moms in the very much in the industry And and
25:28
even in women as in prominent roles also like it.
25:33
It was, it was tough. Do you think that's changing or
25:36
has changed over the years since since the beginning of?
25:40
That I think it's definitely changed.
25:42
One of the things that I, I remember really specifically is
25:45
in, I think it was like 2016, the SCA did a career survey with
25:50
like the Roasters Guild and they looked at how many roasters were
25:55
female. And it at that time, it was
25:57
either 2016 or 2014, it was 16% won, six were female.
26:04
Like that was what I was trying to break into.
26:09
I think that, you know, obviously today, like I, I
26:12
talked to women roasters all the time and I think a lot of women
26:18
who roast today owe a lot of credit to some people who really
26:23
like broke the glass and like created the path for them.
26:29
So I think that's definitely better today.
26:32
But I still think that we see a lack of women in decision making
26:37
roles across the industry. I think that they're their value
26:43
is is under represented. So I see that a lot.
26:49
I'm really happy when I talked to a female in the coffee
26:55
industry who doesn't recognize those struggles.
26:59
Like I'm happy if they cannot empathize with what I'm with.
27:03
The things that that that I went through and things that I saw
27:07
people around me going through. I'm so excited when that doesn't
27:11
resonate with them, but I still see it all around.
27:16
So we we definitely have a long way to go, especially with
27:20
establishing career paths. I think we see a lot of women in
27:25
the coffee industry who are in the barista spot, who are
27:30
working in the retail side and they don't have a real clear
27:35
career progression of like where they're going to go or things
27:41
happen in their life like that they have kids or some kind of
27:46
responsibility gets added. And there's not a lot of
27:52
discussion about how to get back in and keep advancing their
27:56
career. And I think they get pushed out
27:58
into other careers all the time. Like I think we lose a lot of
28:03
really incredible talent in this industry because we don't
28:09
nurture it and help it to to grow so.
28:13
Does that so this show is is on season 16.
28:19
Something I noticed on this particular note was in the
28:22
beginning, I, I had almost equal 5050 male, female choice of
28:29
gender, gender identity kind of mixed in with the people I was
28:33
talking to. And one of the messages that I
28:35
heard a lot from the women on the show was they felt alone or
28:39
they didn't feel like they had someone to role model for them,
28:41
which is one of the reasons I've learned to like really
28:43
appreciate representation in that way.
28:46
Then as you get through into some of the middle seasons, it's
28:49
much more male dominated. And it was because the people
28:52
that I was engaging with, there was only so many, you know, to
28:56
fit in that were available and also and the being available to
28:59
be interviewed part as well. And so I really tried to work to
29:03
come back and say, no, we need to represent all these different
29:06
aspects as much as we can. Does that inspire you to when
29:10
you see somebody out in the world to mentor?
29:13
Has that become part of your life at all or to offer, Hey,
29:16
here's some advice just. I try to, I try to make that
29:20
really like a big part of who I am in this industry is making
29:27
sure that people understand that I'm open to questions.
29:32
Every time I talk to a new new customer who is female or you
29:40
know, identifies in that way, I always let them know, hey, I'm
29:45
here for literally anything. Like if you, if you have a
29:49
question about another importer, call me.
29:51
If you have a question about a roast, call me.
29:53
If you need some kind of help in your progression, call me.
29:59
Like I want to be there to support women who are in this,
30:03
who are in this industry. I do think it's really
30:06
isolating. I think that there are a lot of
30:10
experiences that also as women in the industry, we don't really
30:16
talk about like the number of times I, I have men who just
30:21
totally disregard my opinion in, in conversations or, you know,
30:28
I've been at meetings where where a guy has tried to explain
30:33
to me what a roast curve is. And I'm, you know, it's like
30:37
beating my head against the, the wall, just like, you know, been
30:43
in. I had a manager who told me I
30:45
just need to smile more and wear more makeup and then that would
30:48
help in my leadership style. All of these things that have
30:54
happened and I, I know that so many other women in the
30:59
industry, especially if you're roasting.
31:02
I talked to so many women who, you know, we'll talk about roast
31:06
theory and they're so smart. They're like, they know their
31:11
stuff about coffee, they know their stuff about roasting.
31:15
And we'll, when we're in, you know, maybe a like at an event
31:19
or something, I'll be in a group with them and there will be guys
31:23
just like talking and talking about all of this stuff.
31:27
And they're, they're pretty quiet because they've been shut
31:29
down so many times and had people look at them of like,
31:35
just like disregarding their experience.
31:37
And they've, they've also just like never really been validated
31:41
that, yeah, you were a great roaster.
31:43
Like this isn't by accident. Like you, you worked really
31:46
hard, you're really smart. You study, you study your
31:50
coffee, you know your stuff. And that's why you're a great
31:53
roaster. So many of them, it seems like
31:57
think that it's by accident when they roast really good coffee,
32:03
by accident when they get recognized.
32:06
And I think that's like across the board, I think that it's
32:09
still really challenging to be a woman in this industry.
32:17
And I, I think, I still don't think that women are comfortable
32:22
with expressing some of those challenges that they're
32:25
experiencing. And there's not really a good
32:29
forum for us to talk about it, right?
32:32
Like to talk about some of these interpersonal challenges that we
32:36
have within the workplace or talk about like how we're, we're
32:42
feeling represented in the industry.
32:45
So I, I try to be a place for that in any opportunity I have.
32:51
And I also try to connect women with other women who have, who
32:55
might be able to kind of be that support network for them as they
32:59
are growing. I was really, really fortunate
33:02
to have an amazing set of women that I I encountered early on in
33:10
my coffee career back in, I want to say maybe I think 2015, Layla
33:17
Wilbur, the time Layla Gambari, she put on an event called the
33:25
Coffee Woman and it was in Seattle.
33:28
They held it at the Roy St. Cafe and all of these women got
33:35
together. There must have been 100 women
33:38
coffee professionals, all from the Seattle area, Pacific
33:42
Northwest. They were all there and they, we
33:47
had like a, there's maybe 20 women who got up on stage and
33:51
just shared like some of their experience as being a woman in
33:54
the coffee industry. And a lot of those experiences,
33:59
you know, we had women who started companies in the 70s and
34:03
did tech work in the 80s and were roast, you know, like had
34:06
been roasting for, you know, through the 90s.
34:09
And these times when they were really like the lone wolf, like
34:13
the only one out there. And they were, they're strong.
34:18
They're fighters. Like they don't take shit from
34:21
anyone. And I had the opportunity to sit
34:24
through and hear these stories and it was so inspiring.
34:30
And I've, I've just, I've never, I've never lost sight of how
34:35
precious that opportunity was. One of them like gave this
34:41
negative advice about applying for jobs and said, you know,
34:45
have the have the confidence of a mediocre man.
34:49
And I carry that with me all the time.
34:52
And in that room, I sat next to the women that I sat next to in
34:58
that room who were baristas, who were just people right in the
35:03
coffee industry. Those are women who are leading
35:06
everything today. You know, I sat next to, that's
35:09
where I met Jen Hurd, who's with Genuine Origin.
35:12
That's like where I met Jill Killian and so many people who
35:20
I, I got a mentorship out of that with Jen Roberts, who is at
35:25
Atlas Coffee and her and I used to go and sit down and talk
35:30
about how things were going. All of that was so precious to
35:33
me. I wish that we had more
35:36
opportunities like that. I feel like there was a moment
35:39
in coffee where we recognized the inequalities and then
35:43
everybody wanted to think that all of it was fixed after that.
35:47
And we haven't like really gone back to to addressing that.
35:53
And I think the disparity has kind of widened since then.
35:58
Well, once we fix something, we get the credit and then we don't
36:00
have to do it anymore, right? I mean, that's yeah, I laughed
36:06
at a little. I tried not to laugh out loud,
36:07
but the. The confidence of a mediocre
36:09
man. My wife and I talk about this
36:11
sometimes where I don't want to say a chastiser, but I'm like,
36:14
hey, don't apologize like you when she's talking about
36:17
something or even if we're arguing, like, like, no, like, I
36:21
know you know what you're talking about.
36:22
Like, you're smarter than me by a mile, but you're letting me
36:24
win here because I'm just confident in what I'm saying.
36:27
And. And I, I think that's like the,
36:30
so one of the things that this person had talked about, it was
36:33
regarding job applications. And she talked about how she
36:35
gets, you know, she put a post a job that's open and she would
36:40
get 10 incredibly mediocre applications from, from men and,
36:49
and, and one, you know, application from, from a woman.
36:53
And even in that the person feels like they, they feel like
36:57
in order to apply, they need to be overly qualified, like they
37:00
need to meet every expectation and then some to be a candidate.
37:05
And they said, you know, have like go for it.
37:08
And that was so important. Like that's what I that was an
37:12
event that happened before I went and applied to this.
37:15
With the bag. With the bag of coffee and.
37:17
Swing. For the fence, yeah, swing for
37:19
the fence like and I applied for in at points in time in my
37:23
career. I have applied for so many wild
37:27
like things that were dream jobs, like would be so cool, but
37:32
I was wild in my brain. I thought it was wildly under
37:35
qualified for. And you would be shocked at how
37:38
far I made it into these like job interviews.
37:41
And I and it just like made me realize like, yeah, like go for
37:45
it. Like I have, I'm smart.
37:47
I have, I have experience and it's so easy to, to downplay
37:54
what we bring into a situation and make ourselves smaller.
37:59
And I, I feel like that's what so many women in coffee do.
38:03
And we need to embrace all of these things that we have and
38:07
take up space in the industry and speak and be heard, you
38:12
know, so. I'm in my head, I'm like using
38:16
the word self deprecating as like a tool to like deflect.
38:19
Yeah, it's, it's something that I know that I do, but I think a
38:22
lot of people do like. And then when you're looking at
38:25
things or opportunities and you once you start saying I'm under
38:29
qualified or there's no way, then you lose momentum to
38:33
actually pursue it. And it's like, how do you get
38:35
qualified if you don't end up getting a chance and.
38:37
Then if you do get it, you feel like you've got that really
38:39
strong imposter syndrome that everything was just by accident
38:43
and at some point they're going to figure out that you're not
38:45
qualified, right? And I, I just, I see that so
38:50
often with women in the industry.
38:53
And I think that it's, it's just a like, they just need a mirror
38:58
to help reflect like how wonderful they are and how much
39:01
they're contributing and how talented they are.
39:03
So I always try to be that mirror and like, like show back
39:06
to them, like how incredible what they're doing is, how much
39:10
value they bring to the business that they are in so that they
39:15
can have that confidence to go in and like get those jobs that
39:18
they really want to get. Speaking of jobs that you really
39:22
want to get you work with a say a coffee source, I find a lot of
39:27
value in what they do as a as a company.
39:30
I don't know if this, I don't mean this to be a slight, but I
39:32
consider them more of a boutique company.
39:35
Is that fair to say? How does the work that you're
39:39
doing now, how does that differ from some of the bigger
39:42
operations or what value do you bring that you're like, This is
39:45
why you should consider what we do as a value add to your
39:50
business? Does that make sense?
39:52
Feel like I word saladed that a little bit.
39:54
It does make sense, I think. So I'll just say.
39:58
So before working for Hacia, I spent five years working for a
40:01
very large company that had a specialty division.
40:05
So I worked in the specialty division, it was International
40:10
Coffee Trading Company. So I I've seen I've had the
40:15
experience. Yeah, sorry, I didn't.
40:18
I jumped a little bit. I have.
40:19
I apologize. But I've had the experience
40:20
doing large scale specialty, I've had the experience doing
40:23
commercial, like small experience doing commercial and
40:28
seeing some of the the different ways that those companies work
40:33
and the ways that they that they interact within the industry.
40:38
I think to to every this is a very big industry and I feel
40:46
like at some point we have to pick which channel we want to be
40:52
in and which segment of that industry we want to be a part of
40:55
and then dig really deep. So in that time when I worked
41:00
for this really large company, that's when I got to meet Jared
41:04
and his brother Luke got to actually do some travel with
41:08
Jared, who's these are the owners of Hacia.
41:12
I got to do some travel with Jared down to Honduras and get
41:17
to know him really well and also just like learn about his
41:19
values. Because for me, I, I know that I
41:24
have the qualifications. I could go and work at a lot of
41:26
different places. I could do a lot of different
41:28
roles in coffee and I have. So when I was looking to for
41:34
what company I wanted to be a part of, it was really important
41:37
for me to to drill down into what was like what mattered.
41:44
So there are roles that you can do in coffee where you're going
41:48
to make really good money. And there are roles that you can
41:50
do in coffee where you are going to, you know, be a social
41:56
warrior and do really good things for these different
41:59
pieces. And those don't overlap very
42:04
often. So.
42:07
I just assumed to say I was paying you the most money.
42:10
And if they're not? No, it's just you have, you have
42:15
to really like, you have to really figure out what's
42:19
important to you. And that's because there's
42:23
there's nothing there. There are no jobs where you get
42:26
to have everything. And the other thing is like, I
42:29
think, you know, maybe this is a hot take.
42:32
I think most trading companies, coffee trading it as a whole,
42:38
the process of, of, of coffee being grown in these countries
42:45
and then bring brought into the US that is in itself built on a
42:50
lot of ugly stuff. And a lot of the companies
42:53
who've been doing it for a long time.
42:55
I've had a lot of part in a lot of that ugly stuff.
42:59
And I, I think that, you know, that's another thing that's
43:04
really important is thinking about like the company and like
43:07
what, what you want to be a part of.
43:12
And so for me, I hit Jared and Luke up about oh, sorry I.
43:19
Was going to say I don't know what.
43:20
I'm sure it's fine. I hit Jared and Luke up about
43:24
coming over and being a part of their team because what was
43:27
really important for me was the way in which they conducted
43:32
business, in particular how they were interacting with producers
43:37
at Origin and the equity that they were bringing to the
43:40
producers in the buying relationship.
43:44
So that that was really important to me.
43:48
Producers, you know, in the whole supply chain, there's one
43:52
group in the supply chain that doesn't get to dictate their
43:55
margin and that doesn't get to dictate any of the rules of the
43:59
game, and that's the producer. And so for somebody to go in and
44:04
you know, I think what Hacia does is they try to go in and
44:07
change that and bring equity to the producer so that the
44:12
producer is making decisions. And that we instead of becoming,
44:19
instead of just being a buyer, we're also providing a lot of
44:24
critical feedback to them about the US market and what the value
44:28
of their coffee is. So that the value of their
44:30
coffee is is based on something that has a solid foundation
44:36
instead of a fluctuating sea market.
44:38
Because to tell a farmer in Honduras today that their coffee
44:44
isn't worth as much as it was a month ago because of something
44:48
that happened in the sea market, like because of of rain that
44:51
happened in Brazil, like Brazil got rain.
44:53
So your coffee is worth less. Like that's in general like what
44:58
is happening and somebody comes in and dictates that to the
45:01
producer and says this is what your coffee's worth based on the
45:06
rain in Brazil and the bumper crop in Vietnam.
45:09
But. It has nothing to do with the
45:10
work they're. Doing nothing to do with the
45:11
work that they're doing. And So what really drew me to
45:15
Hacia is the commitment that Jared and Luke had to disrupting
45:20
that and turning the role of the importer into a piece of the
45:26
puzzle that is giving information and price discovery,
45:32
helping with price discovery based on like actual tangible
45:35
things like the quality of your coffee.
45:38
The the you know, how a roaster is going to use it getting
45:42
taking feedback from the roaster, bringing it into the
45:45
producer. And then when the producer has
45:47
that feedback and has that information, the producer is in
45:51
control of setting the price of their coffee.
45:54
And you know, so it's a totally different feedback loop where
45:59
we're not in a, it's not a power dynamic.
46:02
We're we're the, the center of power.
46:05
You know, we are just this conduit of information for the
46:09
producer and empowering them to make decisions.
46:14
On the other side of that, then you know you're working with
46:17
people who are buying the green coffee.
46:20
I was trying to learn something on every show or or help people
46:23
learn something. Coffee Smarter is what we call
46:25
it, something we do with Rostar who sponsors the show.
46:30
What is it that you wish the people buying this green coffee
46:33
from you new or what are the smarter roasters asking you when
46:37
they come to you and say what? What are you seeing in this
46:41
coffee that makes it a value add?
46:42
Why is it why are we paying you more for this coffee?
46:45
A lot of the reasons you just said, but also from that
46:49
perspective, you know, since you see both sides, you know, what
46:52
would you say? I think that roasters that I'm,
46:56
that I'm seeing be really successful with selling coffee,
47:02
selling their coffee that they're, they're sourcing in
47:04
this manner because this is more expensive coffee, right?
47:07
Like if we're going to take this wild sea market out of it and
47:10
we're basing it off of what coffee actually costs to
47:13
produce, then it's going to be more expensive coffee.
47:19
And I think that roasters who are being really successful with
47:22
this, which, you know, people who are, are, are being smarter
47:25
about how they're making their buying decisions.
47:29
I, I think they put a lot of emphasis into how they're going
47:33
to communicate that value add to the customer because a lot of
47:38
information and a lot of the, the knowledge about the value
47:41
add gets lost at that spot where like the roaster takes it in and
47:47
they make the buying decision and they're like, yeah, this is
47:50
this coffee. It's so great.
47:51
It's got this cool story. It's, it's got these
47:55
sustainability features to it, like really behind it.
47:59
And then that's where it stops and they don't put the same
48:03
emphasis into communicating that and pulling that forward to the
48:08
consumer so that the consumer has the same understanding of
48:12
the value add that the roaster does.
48:15
And with that, I'd also say when you understand when you're when
48:20
you're pulling that information forward and you're understanding
48:24
what the value add is for the consumer and you're
48:26
communicating that to them and you're getting their feedback
48:29
about the value. It may be enlightening.
48:33
You may learn that your consumer does not care as much about cup
48:37
quality or unique flavors or cool processing methods.
48:41
Maybe they're really engaged with the process that you use
48:47
for buying the coffee or this, you know, how you invested your
48:50
time and energy into the supply chain.
48:53
I think roasters would be shocked if they really sat down
48:59
and did like some tastings with the average consumer and with
49:02
their average consumer to learn that the, the consumer palette
49:06
is so different from the coffee buyers palette.
49:10
And when we put our, our value, when you're saying like the
49:14
value add is in the cup score or in, in something, you know, like
49:19
this particular unique flavor, that does not mean that it
49:23
translates to the consumer as a value add.
49:26
I think, you know, bringing this information forward.
49:30
So it doesn't stop at the cupping table, which is where I
49:33
think a lot of it stops. It stops at the cupping table.
49:38
And it when you bring it forward and you're connecting and also
49:40
getting that feedback from consumers about why they're
49:44
buying this coffee from you. Like that's important
49:46
information. And I think that helps you to
49:50
make really key buying decisions.
49:53
I also think that it insulates you from push back you might get
49:58
when you have to raise prices or make changes because the
50:02
consumers bought in to you guys are bought in on the same thing.
50:06
And if that costs more, the consumers going to understand
50:08
that that quality cost more. So yeah.
50:13
Yeah, consumers associating with the the mission or the morals,
50:17
the values of a business as opposed to just this is the
50:21
liquid that's the hot bean juice or I think how you referred to
50:25
it earlier with me off air. And I know that that's important
50:30
for me. I think as a consumer, I am
50:35
trusting the companies that I I'm putting in the effort to
50:38
like this is the company I'm supporting either in my
50:40
neighborhood or on a bigger scale, But I'm also trusting I
50:44
come to them in in part or settle on them settles the wrong
50:47
word. But I choose them because I'm
50:51
trusting that they're doing the work you're talking about that
50:53
you're doing at Isaiah, right? I'm going OK, I know that they
50:57
do things in a way that matches my values.
51:00
And so I'll when they tell me or when I we get to a level of
51:03
trust back and forth. I don't feel guilty buying your
51:06
product, which everything I do is about guilt.
51:11
I grew up. You know Catholics.
51:15
No Lutheran Missouri Senate, but there's some overlap there.
51:18
Yeah. We can keep talking about this
51:21
stuff for hours. I feel like I could, if I just
51:24
let you go, I'd have content for a year, and I would love to do
51:27
that. Excuse me, but I also have a
51:30
couple of things I want to make sure that we get to.
51:33
Most importantly, any thoughts on resources that maybe people
51:37
can look up? Do you, are there things that
51:39
you look at regularly to learn about the coffee industry
51:42
generally or to expand your skills?
51:45
That's kind of an off the cuff question.
51:47
I was just thinking as we were talking, I'm like, how do we get
51:49
some of more of this information that you're taking in out to the
51:52
world? Yeah, I mean, so I think that,
51:55
you know, for a roaster, top thing I would do would be to be
52:00
sitting down and having conversations with your
52:02
customers to learn why they're buying your coffee.
52:07
How can I hide in the back by the roaster I?
52:10
Know, I know and let's see, you know, things that I'm doing to
52:16
gain knowledge and information. Definitely networking.
52:21
I use LinkedIn to network with other coffee professionals.
52:25
When I get questions about coffee or, you know, what's
52:29
going on, something with the industry, I have a whole network
52:32
of people that I can reach out to.
52:34
So crowdsourcing information I think is really important.
52:38
There are so many really, really incredible and super
52:43
knowledgeable people in this industry who would love nothing
52:46
more than to top coffee with somebody and they just don't get
52:51
approached. So, you know, reach out and
52:54
network. When you find a piece of
52:56
information that is really valuable to you, reach out to
52:59
the person who who shared that information and let them know
53:04
that that was valuable and and that you made an impact for you
53:09
think that's really important. And then, you know, I'm always
53:14
watching, watching the coffee market, watching the C market.
53:17
Even though we don't base our prices on the C market as
53:20
specialty, we can't ignore the fact that the C market is
53:24
important. Because if the C market jumps up
53:28
and the producer sees that their neighbors are going to make all
53:31
of this money from selling strip picked coffee cherry, that
53:37
impacts the decisions that that it impacts the context of that
53:41
producer is, is operating in. So it's still really important
53:45
to know what's going on in the sea market.
53:48
So I, I use bar chart as a resource for getting that
53:51
information. And then I also like to follow
53:56
kind of what's happening geopolitically to kind of know
54:02
what's kind of on the horizon. You know, you can see if you're
54:06
trying to like, read the tea leaves about what's going to
54:09
happen with coffee prices and the sea market, You know, you
54:12
can look real broadly at like, what's happening with oil,
54:16
what's happening with, you know, tariffs made a really big
54:19
impact. That's hour 2A, full hour.
54:23
Aren't tariffs, Yeah. So, so kind of following like,
54:26
you know, what's happening geopolitically.
54:28
I really love this podcast called Geopolitical Cousins, the
54:34
unique take on on what's going on.
54:37
But I, I do really enjoy listening to podcasts about like
54:42
what's what's happening in the world.
54:45
And then from there you can extrapolate a lot about what
54:49
it's going to be influencing and impacting coffee producing
54:53
countries. We've talked quite a bit about
54:58
all of the different things that you've done and and are doing
55:00
now with Hisaya. For people who might be watching
55:03
or listening, who do you see as the customer or the the person
55:06
that's going to come to you and say I want what you're selling?
55:10
Well, I mean, it's really anybody who is aligned with our,
55:15
our buying philosophy and with, you know, they have to be able
55:20
to see the value in our, our buying model where the equity
55:25
is, is being put into the producer.
55:28
So that's the kind of person that we want to work with.
55:32
We're not the right fit for every roaster.
55:35
And I, you know, I'll be the first person to tell somebody
55:38
like, hey, I, I don't know that we're going to be a good fit.
55:43
So yeah, I need roasters who have that same buying
55:46
philosophy. We also do a lot of work with
55:51
because we sell coffee online in smaller quantities.
55:54
We do a lot of work with home and hobby roasters.
55:57
So, you know, that's also kind of a core demographic that we
56:01
love The. People sharing the B more like
56:03
yeah. That was you, that was me.
56:06
I have a have a soft spot in my heart for for people who are,
56:12
you know, maybe roasting isn't their full time gig, but you
56:16
know, like they enjoy it, they love it.
56:19
So I want them to be a part of our industry and a part of the
56:23
discussions that we have. Well, they're the ones who are
56:26
going to be willing to go to the coffee shop and spend the money
56:29
on like the good cup of coffee too.
56:31
And until they get to a point where they're they're roasted.
56:33
They think they're doing it themselves.
56:35
When you are out in the world, networking perhaps, and you stop
56:40
into a coffee shop, what do you order?
56:42
Drip. End of list.
56:45
End of list. I just so I order, I'll order a
56:50
drip. I always ask first because I
56:53
don't like wild coffees. I like basic coffees.
56:56
Like if you've got a Brazil on drip, Oh my gosh, give it to me.
57:02
So you know, but if they're doing like crazy, like a
57:05
anaerobic Kenyan or something, I'm like, cool, maybe not for
57:08
me. Like that's not, that's not
57:10
really what I go for, but usually I'm I just I get a drip.
57:14
My other favorite drink, this is the drink that Jen heard and I
57:19
love. And we call it a baby bear.
57:22
And a baby bear is a macchiato sized mocha.
57:26
It's just a. Little little baby bear, so I do
57:31
really enjoy. It So if I go order a baby bear
57:33
around here, people know what I'm talking about I.
57:35
Don't know but like Jen and I both had that same that that
57:39
same order that we really enjoyed and we decided we were
57:43
going to call it a baby bear because it needed a name.
57:47
I have ordered a baby bear places.
57:49
So if you have a menu at the baby bear, it's.
57:53
Adorable. It's going to be huge.
57:56
So I, yeah, I mean, I, I like to find fun, interesting drinks.
58:01
One of the best coffee experiences that I've ever had
58:05
in my life was do you know, I don't know if you know Maxwell
58:11
Mooney, who is now over with Onyx, but he had a coffee shop
58:16
called narrative in Everett. And before he had narrative, he
58:20
had a pop up and IA pop up in Everett at like in front of the
58:25
courthouse, like on the and I drove up from Portland to go to
58:30
his pop up because he's one of my favorite coffee humans.
58:35
And he asked me what I wanted and I told him dealer's choice.
58:39
So he asked me what my budget was and I was like 50 bucks and
58:43
he. That's a bold question.
58:45
Like when you're ordering up a coffee.
58:46
What's your budget? Yeah, he was like, how much you
58:48
want to spend on this? And I was like 50 bucks and he
58:52
made the most incredible coffee experience for me.
58:57
So I mean, I wish I could go and like, so sometimes I'll go and
59:01
like Dealer's Choice and see what the barista makes me, but
59:05
usually it's just a drip. Usually that's all I go for.
59:08
What did we miss today? Or is there something I should
59:11
have asked that I didn't, that we didn't get to, that you think
59:14
is important? I don't.
59:16
If anything, yeah, I don't think there's anything that we really
59:18
missed. I would love for in my heart.
59:26
I would love if women in the coffee industry hear this.
59:31
And I just want you to know that you're you're seen like I see
59:36
you. I see you every time I go into a
59:38
coffee shop. I see you when I go to a
59:41
roastery. I see the work that you're
59:43
putting in. I'm watching.
59:46
If you need anything, I'm here for you.
59:49
If you are trying to advance your career, you can reach out
59:52
to me. I want to see you be successful.
59:56
I want nothing more than to see you thrive in this industry.
59:59
I think that the I think that your perspective is important.
1:00:04
I think the work that you're doing is important.
1:00:07
So, yeah, I mean, that's, I think what's core to everything
1:00:12
I do in coffee is like, I want to see women in this industry
1:00:18
thrive. Anything I can do to help and
1:00:21
support you to to get there, reach out.
1:00:27
I think that's a great way too. Like if you're a guy and you
1:00:29
want to you want to thrive. I'm I'm also here for the.
1:00:31
You want everyone to thrive, but you have.
1:00:33
AI want them to thrive but I like really want to see women in
1:00:37
this industry thrive. Emily, thank you so much for
1:00:40
your time and for sharing. Thank you to Hosea for letting
1:00:44
me steal her for an hour and I'm looking forward to having a cup
1:00:49
of coffee after this. Yes, yes, absolutely.
1:01:47
Thanks for listening, everyone. Please subscribe to our
1:01:49
newsletter at coffeepeoplepodcast.com.
1:01:53
Cheers.