Latest / The Efficient Advisor: Tactical Business Advice for Financial Planners / 162: How to Have More Impactful Conversations Through Motivational Interviewing With Jeremy Keil

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162: How to Have More Impactful Conversations Through Motivational Interviewing With Jeremy Keil · The Efficient Advisor: Tactical Business Advice for Financial Planners

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Every advisor wants to get deep with their clients, right, we want to build trust, we want to establish a connection, we want to understand what motivates our clients and how our clients think and feel, and really get to that next level.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: But how do we do it?
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: And you know, when we talk about client conversations you've heard me talk about it before with my friend, mary Schmidt where there's basically like three levels of conversation right, this top level, which is a very surface level conversation that you can have with your clients.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: There is the next level, down, a level two conversation, which is where you're getting to know their goals, their general motivations, their thoughts, their feelings.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: You're getting to know the clients really well, well enough to create a pretty killer financial plan.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Then there's that next level.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: There is that level three, super deep conversation where you can really get under your clients motivations of how they feel about money, why they feel that way, experience this kind of deep, vulnerable relationship where you become, you know, not just a great advisor with a great financial plan for them, but really this indispensable advisor with an amazing relationship.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: And the question is always okay, great, libby, that sounds wonderful and yes, of course I'd like to do that.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: But how right.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: How do I get better at developing these conversations, how do I get better at connecting with clients in a way that makes me, you know, this indispensable advisor, that makes me the person they're going to share those vulnerable details with, and how do I really establish this very connected relationship that really goes above and beyond?
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Well, today, my guest, jeremy Kyle.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: I've known Jeremy for, I mean, probably 20 years and he is just a advisor who is obsessed with this idea of what's called motivational interviewing.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Jeremy doesn't sell anything, he doesn't have a course, he doesn't promote anything.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: He literally is just a huge fan and student of this style of relationship building and question, you know, asking questions, and he was generous enough to share his time with me and allow me to just sort of ask how he utilizes this idea of motivational interviewing in his client relationships, not just in the beginning, right, so not just for meeting a prospect and, you know, getting them to kind of commit to the process.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's a really big part of this and that's really important too.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: But really, how do we connect with clients ongoing throughout the planning process, throughout our relationship in year two, in year five, in year 12?
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: And in my opinion, this stuff can trickle over into your relationships that you have potentially with a spouse or a partner or, you know, as a parent or just as a friend or a general human.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: And I'm excited to share with you this conversation with Jeremy, and he gets into how to ask good questions.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: You know how to create a framework to make sure that you're asking good questions and it gives us all kinds of acronyms, lots of details, lots of examples, and I know you guys are going to enjoy this conversation because I know you right.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: If you are listening to this podcast, it's because you are that advisor, that advisor that is looking to be better, to grow, to learn more, and I am so glad you're here.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: So let's dive into this conversation with Jeremy Kyle.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: And look, I said at the top of the episode, but I know you're here because you are that advisor.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: You know it's possible to have energy leftover for your family and still run your dream business, and you know what I'm talking about the business that you are running instead of it running you.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: If you're new to the Efficient Advisor, welcome.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: I'm Libby Graywee.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: I started, built and sold by age 37, a 100% referral only planning practice that I grew to seven figures as a solo advisor, all while working just three days a week and taking off 14 weeks a year to lean into being a mom, a wife, a friend, a sister, a daughter and, frankly, a travel obsessed human who just loves taking vacations.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: And I'm here to walk alongside you and to show you how to do exactly the same and to help you take immediate action on the most important strategies for scaling, organizing and creating less stress and overwhelm in your business.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: We are about to transform your practice, so move over exhaustion and get out of the way.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: Advisor ADD.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: It is time to take that one right next step to build a business and a life that you love.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Now, before we dive in, I just want to share that the Systems to Scale group coaching program that starts January 9th is totally sold out.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: So I am so, so excited for the advisors who are joining us.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: I have been getting to know them and learning all about them through their intake forms, and not only is it a super cool group, but I am just excited to see advisors who are so committed to taking their practice to the next level through building out their systems and processes and just enhancing the snot out of their client experience this year.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: So, if you are in the group, I look forward so much to starting working with you here and just like a week and a half when this episode airs, so that's super exciting.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: And if you missed out on this round, I'm so sorry.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: I was getting messages from people saying it says it's sold out.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: Is that true?
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: It is true, but the next cohort will start in August.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: So make sure and I will drop the link in the show notes but make sure you are on the wait list so you are among the first to know the next time we launch.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, so enough of me rambling, let's dive into this conversation with Jeremy, all about motivational interviewing and establishing a framework to create better conversations with your clients.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: Jeremy, I'm fired up that you're back.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for returning.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: You are like the best boomerang that a girl could ask for, so thank you for being here.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I always love talking to you.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: I always like learning something new.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, me too, so I'm excited to dive into this topic of motivational interviewing.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: So I know this is something that you have totally embraced in your own practice and it's something that you love sharing with other advisors.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: So just give us the goods.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: What is it?
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah well, let me tell you first how I got into motivational interviewing, and it really has to do with going to all these financial advisor conferences.
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: I imagine you've been to a lot of financial advisor conferences and it seems like 1 to 200,.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: It's fine.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, it seems like half the people on the main stage.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: They start out and they tell you that the key to success is asking good questions, and then they kind of stop, like they don't tell you how to ask good questions.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: If you're lucky, they might say well, here's the magical question, like seven words can make a huge difference and that's all you got to do is just sprinkle that like potion on clients and prospects.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: But they never tell you how to go out and learn how to ask good questions.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: So thankfully, I'm married to a school counselor and she knows a whole lot about psychology, and she let me know about this thing called motivational interviewing, which is a framework of how do you have a guided discussion about change and what are we doing as a financial advisor?
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: We're helping people make changes.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, even if that changes change who, their financial advisor is right, it's a change.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: They're coming to you saying I have something in my life, financially, I need to change, and I believe if you're somebody who wants to be a good financial advisor, you should learn how to help others make changes.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: And so motivational interviewing is a process, a framework that I found and I've been studying for years now to learn how to be better at helping others make great decisions.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: Ooh, that's so interesting.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: So I love when.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: So one of the things that I, when I back when I was running my practice, that I was really obsessed with was looking outside of the financial industry at how other industries were doing things and then taking those and translating them and kind of testing them and tweaking them and implementing them inside of my business and seeing like, okay, well, how does something that like a adjacent type business or even a totally non-related business, like what are the kind of things that they're doing for social media, what are they like?
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: Kind of looking outside of the financial industry and then bringing it in.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: So I love this idea of reaching over into psychology and it's such an adjacent field, right, but like a huge, huge amounts of overlap in in intersections.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: So okay, so it's a framework.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: If I understand this correctly, it's a framework for a guided discussion, because we're basically trying to give clients some form of transformation.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Well, they're asking you for it.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: They came to you, they showed up in your office on your Zoom saying I need to make some sort of change.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: Sometimes they can't express it and that's part of this, too, is helping them express what changes they made.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: But let me tell you even more about where motivational interviewing came from, which was 40 some years ago, where it used to be that if you were someone that had some sort of substance abuse issue perhaps you were driving drunk and the judge said you have to go talk to a counselor as part of your your you know restitution, your sentence.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: It seemed like back then the way that the psychologist thought to make you better is to get you to admit that you have a problem.
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: If they admit they have a problem, then the L is going to be great in the world.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Well, it turns out that doesn't work.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Telling somebody that they're wrong and having them admit that they're wrong usually doesn't work out.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Thankfully, there's a few psychologists that said let's do something different.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: They started trying to figure out a way to find out what it is these people want and help them get towards it.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Even if you're being forced to show up in the financial or the therapist's office.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: There's probably still something you want.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: There's probably at some point some little seed knowing that.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Okay, this isn't working out for me.
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: It's kind of pulling out the things that the client they even call them clients in that situation, what does the client want and how do you help them move themselves towards it?
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: So you got to figure if motivational interviewing can help people with substance of use issues Like there's a chemical controlling your brain right now.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: If that can help in that area.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: It can help in the area of let's help people make better decisions about their money, better decisions about how they spend their money, where they invest their money, things like that.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you said it's a framework which is like my love language.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: I love me a good framework, I love a good process.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Walk us through what is the framework and then kind of share like how you weave that into your client experience.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's not as if, like here's the 10 things you got to do in this exact order.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: It's a bit.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: I'm going to start with something called the style and spirit of motivational interviewing.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: So these are things I've been studying for years.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: I'm not a teacher of motivational interviewing, I'm just an avid learner and just a passionate student about how do I get better about interacting with others.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: And so the style and the spirit of motivational interviewing is a four letter acronym PACE, partnership, acceptance, compassion, empathy.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: And just think of the partnership piece of it.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: Even though you're the financial expert, even though they came asking you for help, nothing happens unless they actually do it.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: They have to be the ones that signed to open the new account form.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: It's still you and them.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: So it's having this spirit, this style, like we are in partnership.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: It's acceptance.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: Someone might walk in your door and say I've got a hundred grand in credit card debt and I've got all these problems financially, and you could say like, oh, my goodness, that's a horrible thing.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: What do you do into yourself?
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: Or you can be accepting like they got there for a reason, which all these kind of fit in right.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: There's a bit of compassion coming in there, like they got in there for a reason and perhaps you can use your empathy to try to understand where they get there.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: Like, I work with people that are approaching retirement.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: Basically, if you're 60 years old and you have a 401k and a pension and a public company, you come to me and I help you make good decisions with your 401k and your pension and your social security.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: And it's quite often that someone will come in and say I'm taking social security at 62.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: I'm taking my pension the day I retire and I know that 95% of the time that's wrong.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: Yet if I tell them they're wrong, if I try to bring all these facts and figures to show them that that's a horrible idea, that gets me nowhere.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: But perhaps if I have some empathy of tell me, how did you come up with that idea of 62?
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Well, they might share with you that my dad died at 63 and never got to enjoy his social security Right.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: He died two weeks after he took his pension, didn't even get his first check.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Like, have some empathy, have some understanding, have some compassion, accept, like why they came to these decisions and that's a good starting point.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: So part of motivational interviewing, part of working with others, is just having the right frame of mind of how you're approaching your conversation on it.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I like this.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: I always, like, you know, look at it through the lens of okay, how do you do this as a financial advisor?
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: And then how do I parlay that into other areas of my life?
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: So it's interesting because as I'm listening to you talk, so as we were chatting before, we hit record that I had two teenage boys right and I was just thinking about, like some of the conversations that they've had with me here recently and, like, looking at it through that lens of like, huh, like there's probably some things that I should or could you know, apply from this to some of those conversations with my teenagers.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: So I really like the example that you shared specifically right about retiring at 62 and how I think our natural instinct as advisors often, you know, I spend a lot of time working with advisors saying, okay, we're like, we're not the, you know the guru that goes up to the mountaintop and comes down with the papers and is like, hey, here's the plan, right, it's more of this like Sherpa, like relationship where we're climbing the mountain together and it's more of a guiding relationship as opposed to, you know, the person that comes down from the mountaintop with the money guide, pro output, and says here's why you need you know, here's, logically, why you need to do what I think you should do, versus connecting to that emotional side first before you can apply any logic.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's, that's every, every, every, every, when you have teenagers.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Do you have teenagers yet?
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: Very close.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: They both act that way.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: They're all in that emotional brain, they work out of their amygdala, right, and like having to connect with them emotionally first before you can even apply logic, and 95% of the time we don't even get to the logic point of it.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: But okay, I like that.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: So we start with this idea of pace, which is partnership, acceptance, compassion and empathy.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: All right, what else?
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: So that's the style.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: That's kind of like how do you have your brain and emotion yourself approach this conversation?
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: And it's good to have some tactics and this one doesn't have an acronym, but perhaps we'll figure one out while we're talking but some skills, some ways to go about it are.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Number one express empathy.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: Right, if somebody walks in and says I've got 50 grand of credit card debt, you don't say, well, that sucks, right, that's horrible, what did you do to yourself?
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: You can express the empathy by saying something like that's got to be tough.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: And they're like, yeah, it is tough.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: If you say something to the client, prospect, whatever you're talking to, and they're like, yeah, that's it, you're on the right track.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: So express empathy for where they might be, support self efficacy, they can do this.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: They might not have gone through and gotten all the charters and designations that you did, but they've done quite a bit A lot.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Someone comes into my office and they say I don't know what to do.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: I've got all this money all over the place and I'm just afraid of making a mistake.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Well, I can express some empathy right there because they're afraid of making a mistake.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: But also I can point out you save quite a lot Like you must be doing something right Because you've been learning how, to you know, max out your 401k.
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: And I see you have an HSA and you must know the rules there.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: And they're like yeah, I do know the rules.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Like they, we can support what they've already done and that they've got the ability to keep on moving in the right direction.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: Another principle, another tactic, is to roll with resistance.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Some of them might come in and say I've got 100% of my investments in Apple stock and I'm never going to change.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Do you instantly say that's a horrible idea or do you kind of roll with it?
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: It's like, oh, thanks for sharing that.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Do you mind if we address that later?
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Like, just kind of roll with it, like it's not.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: You're not going to get anywhere by just instantly throwing up that brick wall against whatever they they said.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Then they're sometimes develop discrepancy, right?
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Some of my coming and say I got this pension, I'm sure it really doesn't matter when I take it.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: Well, I know it matters a lot when you take it.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: So let's maybe develop discrepancy somehow of when they say it doesn't really matter when I take this pension.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: Try to just try to widen the chasm between taking it and not taking it and like, okay, so right now you could take the pension with a lower amount or you could wait a few years and double your money, right You're?
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: You're trying to like just say there's an actual decision here, which is a bit of explore ambilance, because sometimes which is another tactic, sometimes it's not, yeah, it really doesn't matter.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: It's almost more like I don't care which way, right, I don't, I don't really care if I retire at 62 or 65, right, so maybe explore that and maybe even sometimes amplify it.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: You know, kind of in a good loving way, right, if someone says I don't really know if I want to retire at 62 or 65, you could say, yeah, you'd rather keep on working for that company you hate for the next three years, you know that seems kind of callous the way I said it, but you get what I'm saying.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: Like you're trying to explore and like, no, no, I hate that company, I'm not going to work another three years for them, okay, well, the fact that you kind of amplified this I don't care, it really doesn't matter either way helps them to see like an A or B, like a zero one, like there is a decision here and when people don't think that there's much of a difference and when they don't really care which way they go, they don't make a decision.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: And so trying to widen that difference of option one or option two, it really helps them to make a decision, which is what they did.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: They reached out to you.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: If they're a new client or if they are existing client, they're asking you questions because they want some help making decisions.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: They have something they want to do, and an interesting piece of this, too, is something called change talk.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Like when people are expressing that they want to make a change, you want to keep rolling with that like, keep building up that, yes, they want to make a change, because that will help them actually make the change that they're willing to make.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: I like that.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about change talk.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: That's kind of an interesting thing here that like when someone is expressing the desire to make a change, we're kind of wanting to like double click on that right and like pause and go deeper.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: So in this idea, like in the spirit of motivational interviewing, how do you go deeper or explore that idea of change and kind of hover there to really use it to help you craft the right plan?
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Conversation recommendations.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thankfully that one has an acronym.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: It's called Darncat, which is you want to be looking for the darncat, which is someone expressing a desire or ability to change.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: So DA, reasons or needs to change the RN commitment language.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: There's your C, activating language, there's your A, or taking steps, which is your T, and it seems like it's easiest.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: We're talking here maybe how MI motivational interviewing started in the substance abuse world.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Let's think of someone that wants to quit smoking.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: Right, it's maybe easiest to think of that example.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: So somebody says something like I'd like to quit smoking someday.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Well, they just express a desire.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Or they might say I can quit smoking if I wanted to.
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: I've done it before, right, they just express their ability.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Or they might say a reason or a need, like I need to quit smoking because it's costing me 10 bucks a pack that's just too much money.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: Or a need like, okay, I hate seeing my young kid coughing every day.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: There's a need right there.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: So those are things you want to keep an eye on and you want to keep kind of exploring further when you hear that desire, ability, reasons or needs to change.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Then there's also the commitment language Like I am going to quit smoking.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Like that's a commitment I'm going to go home and throw away my last pack of cigarettes.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: That's activating language.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Or that's maybe taking steps.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Like saying I'm going to do this is more of an activating language.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: But when they come back to you and said, oh yeah, I threw away my cigarettes and I went and talked to the doctor and I'm on the regimen that helps me quit smoking, like they are taking steps there, and those are all things that you can praise, that you can help them do more of.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: So it's easiest.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: This idea of the darn cat of change shock.
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: I like that example that the smoking is kind of an easiest way to think of it.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: So we show up with this pace mentality, this pace mindset, this partnership, acceptance, compassion, empathy.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: We use some of the tactics that you shared the support, the rolling with resistance, the developing discrepancy, the exploring ambivalence.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: And now we do the darn cat and then tell us how do you make that transition?
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Like so, we've asked all these questions.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: We're getting really deep with them.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: How does that then?
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: How do you actually motivate the changer?
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: How do you help them get from A to B?
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: Right, it's one thing to have a conversation, but how do we actually get them to take the actions required to make the change?
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to go in two pieces of it.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: One, I think, is the actual kind of order.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: It sounds like you're asking, but then also is just kind of more tactics, and how is it that I'm saying things?
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: How am I helping you out?
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: So I'll go with the order first, which is what the motivational interviewing calls their process.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: And the first step is engaging, which is connecting with the client.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: If you're not connected to the client, they're probably not going to bother talking any further.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: The next is focusing, which is discovering the need to change.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: Right, just think of a new client coming in and you engage with them first, right, you don't you ask them about their kids and kind of what brought them here?
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: You don't just say how much do you have in your 401k?
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Right, you got to engage first.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: And then the focus thing is not you saying, okay, you need to pay down your debts and you know, take your sole security at 67.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: It's discovering the need to change that they want, right.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: So what brought you here today?
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: I need to figure out this pension thing I'm looking at.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: Okay, tell me more about that and you're.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: You're figuring out what it is that they want to change.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: What's the needed change.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: That's the focusing part.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: Then there's the evoking, which is that change talk that I was speaking about earlier of.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: If someone says I need to pay down my 50,000 in debt, well, let's talk through with evoking, like they, they said it Okay, that's a desire, but you're not quite there yet, right, you're, you're not quite there.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: If all they said is I have 50 grand in debt, right, you need to kind of evoke, get them to talk about the reasons they need to pay it down, get them to commit to paying it down, to get them to commit to a plan.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: That's the evoking part of it.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: And the last part is the planning, which is they plan on what to do next.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Right, if someone says I got 50 grand of credit card debt, you need to get them to the point where they're saying, like, yeah, I need to, I need to pay this down.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: And then you say well, what's the first step you're going to take, right?
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: You don't say, well, okay, you go home and you go cut up this credit card?
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: Right, that might have been the credit card that their grandpa gave them, because everyone should have an American Express card and then grandpa died next week.
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Like, you don't come up with a plan.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Like they.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: They are the expert at themselves and they will.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: You can guide them, you can help them with whatever that plan is.
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: But that is the last step, which is planning, and it's them they need to plan what to do next.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: So that's kind of the order of it.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: You engage with them, you focus on that need to change, you evoke the change, talk to get them to where they they want to make the change, and then you're doing the planning.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: You're you're helping them plan on what to do next, which is all very focus on them, which is which is great.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: At the same time, there's some different skills that you need to do that and it's funny that I started today saying I was wondering how to ask good questions when it comes to the skills that you have.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Here comes another acronym for you it's OARS, o-a-r-s.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: You need to approach things with open in equations, right?
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Do you have a 401k?
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Are you married?
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: When do you want to retire?
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Like these are all closed in equations, that kind of sound like you're interrogating them right.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: And if you just go back question after question after question, it just doesn't feel like a conversation, it feels like an interrogation.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: So you have to have open into questions.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: You should have affirmations, right.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: Some of them might come and say I have 50 grand in credit card debt and you'd find out that they actually had 100 grand, but they paid down some.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: You can affirm them quickly like way to go You've paid down half your credit card debt.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: How did you do that?
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Right, there's affirmations.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: You can and need to build them up and help them understand that they've done things in the past and they can keep doing great things in the future.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: Then there's reflections, and reflections are when somebody says something and you reflect it back to them.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Right, that somebody says and it's not necessarily exactly like repeating, because that just gets weird, like if they just only repeat back exactly.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: But you need to reflect and sometimes, when you reflect you you kind of add in some things or I don't want to use this word summarized yet, because that is the next thing is summarized.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: So if the person came to me and said I'm taking my soul security at 62 because my dad died at 63, you can reflect back and say, oh, that's, you're planning on taking your soul security.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: You're planning on retiring early because you want to enjoy the retirement that your dad did not get to enjoy.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: That's a reflection You're kind of adding in some of your own.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: You've put some thought into it, like I think this is why you're thinking that way.
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: That's perfect.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Because they'll feel hurt, because they'll either say yeah, that's exactly it, or they'll say no, that's not why I'm retiring at 62 and taking a soul security.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: I just got diagnosed with cancer last week.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Well, whoops.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: Well, now you know exactly kind of what's going on, like you know kind of where their headspace is at.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: As you reflected out there, and a summarizing summary, which is last the S of the oars.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: The summarizing is really when they've given you a few thoughts and you're summarizing back to them a few thoughts of.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: You've come into my office because you're looking for a financial advisor that can help you make decisions on soul security and Medicare and you don't quite know what to do with your 401k and you also have this pension where you have to make a decision by next week.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: So those are the things you're looking for and they'll say, yeah, that's exactly it.
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: Or they might say, yes, and this one other thing.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: So a summary is basically kind of summarizing a few reflections back to them.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, I love that.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about so very tactical for listeners.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: How would you use some of these skills inside of like a discovery meeting or like an initial connection meeting, like what would be some of your kind of your favorite go-tos?
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting and part of me doesn't like that.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: The connect discovery meeting is where kind of the focus of when I talk about motivational interviewing is.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: But it is the easiest example because they just showed up at your door and they're completely fresh and so we are kind of exploring and understanding exactly where they're coming from.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: So I just want to say first that this cannon should be used with your existing clients that you've had for 20 years, right, this is.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: I've got clients that have come be and asked should I take a vacation or not?
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: And kind of the initial thought is well, let me just run the numbers and see if you can afford taking out 12 grand plus the taxes, right, and you run the numbers and say, yes, you can take a vacation.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Well, that wasn't why she was asking me this.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: This client was asking me, should I take a vacation or not?
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: Because she was going to use the death benefit payout from her dead husband and like she's using her husband's like life force that's represented by this money to go on vacation and she knows all these other widows that don't have the ability to afford a vacation.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Like that is.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: She wasn't asking me can I afford to take a vacation, like she's asking me, like the moral questions and my job is not to say yes, you should, or yes, can afford to, it's to help her make the decision on whether she should take this vacation or not.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Right, there's people that are deciding in their will Do they leave everything exactly the same, or do we maybe give a little bit more money to this kid?
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: Do I loan money to this kid, do I?
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: You know, there's all kinds of financial questions that aren't answered with a spreadsheet but are answered by helping them make decisions about what they feel is right for them.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: So I want to get that out there first.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: But it is a lot easier to think of somebody's fresh, brand new.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: Let me connect with them and let's figure out kind of where they're going.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: So I'm thinking of just somebody coming in, brand new, never met them before.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: I think the first question is what brings you here today?
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: Or how can we help?
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: Right, and they're going to tell you that sometimes what they do is they just have a stack of papers Like I've got all this stuff, can you help me with this?
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: The natural tendency is well, let me start looking at that and my encouragement say oh, thanks for bringing that you're quite prepared.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: Do you mind if we take a look at this later?
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: That way I have a better context of what these numbers on paper meet right.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: So maybe not jumping into numbers right away is a way to use motivational interviewing right away with brand new people.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: And, of course, when they say, when you ask them what brings you here today, they'll tell you what it is Like.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: I got to pay down the debt, or I'm saving for college, or what you know, I'm retiring.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: I think another good question is to ask well, what prompted you to look right now?
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: Because what made them decide one day to show up at your door?
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: They had the same problem last week.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: They had the same problem the month earlier.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: Something changed and finding that out is going to be a huge thing.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, my kid just went into high school All right, so that's a big deal.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: I'm 62.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: My dad died at 62.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: That's a big deal.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: I got this piece of paper in the mail 28 days ago saying I have to make a decision on my pension and it has to be returned in 30 days, and now you have two days left to solve it.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: Right, that's a big deal.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: Those are things you want to figure out.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Another good question is what have you done so far?
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: Right, because they might have gone through and decided, kind of, here's the way they want to look at things.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: They've done something already.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Right, and that gives you an opportunity to praise them, affirm them, right, what have you done so far?
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I've already saved up half the money I need for my kids, college and the 529 plan, right, well, now you know where they're coming from.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Now, you know what steps they've taken and now you have a chance.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: Now you have a chance to affirm them for what they've been doing.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: So, what have you done so far is great.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: What question ask?
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: Another one is what did you like or didn't like about it?
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Right, they might say well, I have a financial advisor and they've helped me with some things.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: What do you like about that?
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: I don't like anything about it, right?
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: All right, I love how their secretary is always nice and warm and I like that.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: They call me once a year and wish me happy birthday.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: Right now, you're learning things about what they like.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: What don't you like about that?
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: I keep asking him about this 529 savings plan and he doesn't sell it, so he just doesn't have an answer for me Right.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Well, now you know kind of what that is that they're looking for.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: So there's just ways that you can go about asking people that are empowering and that are giving you information about what it is that they truly want from you.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I love that and I can see how yeah, I can see what you're saying like there's ways to use this in every step of your process.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: New client on an ongoing relationship yeah, and it's probably easiest.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: We all tend to naturally, like I did, like jump right to you, like, well, how do you use this in discovery?
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: How do you build that?
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: You know, no, like trust earlier, faster, right, how do we amplify or, you know, expedite the connection process?
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: But I'm glad you called that out, that it is kind of really important, that kind of it is really important to utilize that throughout the relationship just to really strengthen a deep in that relationship.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: So I know this is something that obviously you, you know you shared, that your wife was kind of the one that introduced you to this and then you sort of have gone down a motivational interviewing rabbit hole.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: So for advisors that are listening, that are like you know this is something I do need to get better at, this is something that I could see the value in, you know, really really connecting with the human side of all of our clients, with the humanity of us, of us all wanting to feel understood and heard and really building out because I work with a lot of advisors who have hit that point right, where they're like okay, I know how to do planning, I can run the numbers, I can make the recommendations and now it's really time to turn this into a business with DNA, you know, built it like, I want to have a brand and I want to bake in personality and really what's my style and really wanting to build out that connection, that soft skills, inside of their business.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: So what are some of the best places that you've gone to really enhance your learning and skills in this area and what would you suggest for the advisor who's like you know what?
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: This is something that I really need to explore further.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: So the best place to go is motivationalinterviewingorg.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: I'll give you the websites you can put in the show notes.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: And I'm a book reader, so I read the book first and then I did a online trading, you know, kind of on your own pace, and then I took an in-person course.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, that in-person course, which is not my learning style, was just far away.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: The best way to go, because motivationalinterviewing is how do you interact with somebody else?
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: You can't truly read about how to interact with somebody else.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: You have to experience interacting with somebody else.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: So for the introverted physics major here that likes to read, I'm telling you, go out and take an in-person, take a Zoom course, and when you go to motivationalinterviewingorg you can click on a button called trainings.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: What's great, too, about the psychology field, where the trainers that are out there will be teaching you all this?
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: The psychology field has a different level of financial means and costs than the financial world.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: So you might think, oh, a training for something like this in the financial world is like $1,200.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: And it's like $100 in the psychology world.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: So it's amazingly cost effective to go learn from the experts, because that's just kind of a different style of how money kind of works in the financial versus the psychology work.
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: So there's really no excuse.
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: Don't say that too loud.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: We don't want the cost to start going up when they realize that they're underpricing themselves.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: They are underpricing themselves for sure, but it's amazing that there's really just no excuse.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Then Go out and take the six hours to take a Zoom course where the person will teach you and they'll be kicking you into breakout sessions so you can practice the motivational interviewing.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: That's really the the way to go.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: So go to motivationalinterviewingorg, take a beginner course and then keep going from there.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: So I've taken a beginner course, I've taken two intermediate courses.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: My other financial advisors I have made them go and take the beginner course.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: And now my one advisor that's been with me longer, he's taken the intermediate course.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: You're having these ongoing trainings and reminding ourselves here's a good way to approach and work with your clients is only helpful to your clients.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: Okay, so you totally thank you for that, because you totally segwayed into, kind of the last thing that I wanted to chat about.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: So you've been on the show before and you've shared.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: You know, at the end of the interview I always like to ask people for one or two things that they use to help themselves more, you know, operate more efficiently in their own business, and so you've answered that because you've been on the show.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: We two episodes together already.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: So one of the things that every time we talk first of all, almost every time I kind of forget that you were also an introverted physics major and every time you said I'm like I wonder I like them so much.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: But secondly, one thing I admire so so much about you is your willingness to invest in yourself.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: Every time we talk, you're up to something new, whether that's investing in coaches and trainings and just stuff that makes you better.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: So I would be curious if you would be willing to share, like what are all of, like the different ways that you currently and have, like what have been some of the best ways that you've invested in yourself.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: And then what would you say to the advisor who's kind of like, oh, that's expensive or gosh, I haven't really made that leap yet to spend money on my own personal you know growth.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'll tell you, a motivational interviewing course for 100 bucks is probably the cheapest, best way you can go, because it's it's going to help you develop better relationships with your kids and your spouse and your clients and prospective clients.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: So that's something that I'm taking these courses at least every other year.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: I have my advisors take the motivational interviewing courses and kind of the next levels on up.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: But I do have a business coach.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: I had a business coach for six years.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: Interesting enough, I was in a partnership, wanted to get a business coach, and got to the point where my other partner refused and would not go ahead with business coaching, which was the sign that I needed to say, okay, we're done being a partner ship anymore.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: So I was interesting like kind of a kind of an interesting you know, cross this line kind of point where I believe that coaching and getting better myself is the way I want to go.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: And so it was interesting how it kind of helped before I even engaged as business coach, just the thought and let me just pay the money and commit to coaching really helped me kind of move into a part where I wasn't in a partnership with somebody.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: So, yes, have my own business coach.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Also, just on the educational side, we are focused on retirement planning.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: So myself and the advisors that come on board, cfp is kind of a given.
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: I think it's a minimum level in my book, but let's focus on the retirement things.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: So just, I have my other two advisors paid for them to do the RMA, the Retirement Management course, through IWI.
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: And then there's a National Social Security Advisor designation.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: So I got that myself and my advisor do that a few years ago and we had another advisor show up.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: I said, hey, you're going to get this National Social Security certificate and they're coming somewhat local.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: So I thought let's just go, myself and the other advisor we took a retook the course.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: We came and retook the course four years later just to make sure we're still up on that.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: And of course I do enjoy marketing and so I've got kind of a podcast coaching team.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: I now have a YouTube coaching and team.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: I don't know just in my book if you are.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: If you think you're good at financial advising one, you have a responsibility to stay good and get better, and if you think you're a good financial advisor, you have a responsibility to go find other clients that need your help.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: I just did some business coaching kind of year in business coaching or business planning with my other advisors and our newer one, connor.
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: He had said we were just kind of talking through and what was the opportunity to look forward to, and he said that he kind of knew this beforehand.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: But now that he's in more of a let me meet with new clients type of role, it's amazing that everyone he meets with is coming from a bad situation.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: Like they have an advisor not giving them advice or they have a do it yourself mentality that isn't fulfilling what they need to do.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: And here we are coming in with a process helping them just get to a better situation.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: He just said that opportunities are enlist, like there's just people that need your help and they're just we're here to help them and that's what I think I hate the idea of personally.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: Let me just stop with my 100 clients and be done with it.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: There's my kind of book of business and I'm good for the rest of my life.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Like if you think you're good as a financial advisor, you have a moral, god-given responsibility to go find other people that need your help.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, I love that.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: So I do.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: I admire that so much about you.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: I know we use the same speaking coach.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: Like, really, it seems like every time we talk, like any area that you're like I and I think about this again through the lens of parenting, right, like, if your kids are good at something, like that's the thing we want to amplify and we want to invest in.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: And, yeah, sure, if they're not, if they're struggling in a certain area, you know our tendencies, naturally, like how do we take the things that they're not so great at and elevate that right?
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: How do we, you know, get them a tutor and get them up to speed when really, you know if we're pouring into, like, the things that we're actually already good at and trying to become exceptional?
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: I love that idea.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: So, thank you so much for sharing that and I really I appreciate you being here.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: I appreciate your enthusiasm and excitement over the motivational interviewing and I know that someone listening will take a lot away from this and really be able to integrate it and implement it in their practice.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much for your time again.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been fun talking to you.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: I love talking the world of financial advice, and if you're somebody that wants to talk with me more about that, you can head to my website, which is kyleklfpcom, or check out my podcast called Retirement Revealed, or check out my YouTube channel called Mr Retirement.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: That's MR Retirement.
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: Love it Awesome.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: I will link all of that in the show notes, along with the website and the book and all the things for the $100 course.
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much and have an amazing rest of your week.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: You too, libby, take care.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, isn't he great?
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: So you can definitely check out Jeremy on his podcast called Retirement Revealed.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: It's a podcast with the audience of potential clients, but Jeremy is just full of knowledge.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: He has more designations than anyone I have ever met in my entire life.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: And we'll leave all the information about how to find out more about motivational interviewing in the show notes.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: And I think one of the biggest takeaways for me and what I thought was really just interesting, was this idea of really being intentional, about being a student of conversation and a student of communication and a student of intentionally developing your skills in this area so that you can deepen your client relationships, your family relationships, your friend relationships.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: I just think it's applicable everywhere, which I love.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: And particularly, I thought my take away was going into you know me, I love a good framework, but going into those meetings with intentional, like an intentional arsenal or a war chest of questions that you like to ask.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: That will help you get to the next level.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: And in the episode I did with Mary Schmidt, she called it double clicking, that when a client is using a term or, you know, mentions something like safety or afraid of something, double clicking and saying, well, what does safety mean to you?
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: Like, when you say safety, what does that mean?
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: And I just like this idea of slowing it down and being intentional about asking better questions, about getting deeper with your clients, and I hope you guys found this helpful.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: Anyways, I hope you guys have an amazing rest of your week and, of course, we hang out in the efficient advisor community over on Facebook.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: We've got over 2000 advisors in there now who are just super cool and open to sharing ideas.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: We do screen, so you do have to be in the financial planning or financial coaching space or an operations person within a practice to be in the group.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: And it's amazing, you guys.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: I just love how, when someone posts a question, they get like 30 responses.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: So and I hang out there and I hang out over on LinkedIn.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: Have an amazing rest of your week and I'll talk to you guys soon.