Latest / Authentic Living / Building Trust: Darryl Stickel on Empathy, Leadership, and Organizational Integrity

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Building Trust: Darryl Stickel on Empathy, Leadership, and Organizational Integrity · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to Authentic Living with Roxanne, a place where we have conscious conversations
• 0:08
  about things that really matter in our lives.
• 0:12
  And now here's your host, Roxanne Durhaj.
• 0:40
  Everyone, it's Roxanne Durhodge.
• 0:42
  Thanks for tuning in again this week to hang out with me.
• 0:45
  Today, have a special guest, and he talks about an area that I spend a lot of time kind of
• 0:51
  thinking about, which is trust.
• 0:53
  And I always think that we can learn that much more about it.
• 0:56
  His name is Darryl Stickel.
• 0:58
  Darryl, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:00
  Thank you for having me, Roxanne.
• 1:02
  It's a pleasure to be here.
• 1:03
  So Darryl's done a lot of things.
• 1:05
  And let me just give you a little bit of snippets, all the information of him will be in
• 1:09
  the show notes.
• 1:10
  He's a true thought leader in the area of trust, and he sets a great example of Opto's
• 1:15
  valuable insights and guidance on leadership and transformation that's both practical and
• 1:20
  impactful.
• 1:21
  He's written a book, Building Trust, Exceptional Leadership in an Uncertain World.
• 1:27
  And aren't we in that little bit of that, I'm gonna say, it feels like a hovercraft maybe.
• 1:32
  We're tilting, we're moving, we're unsettling, and so many things going on with uncertainty
• 1:37
  today.
• 1:38
  Daryl went to Duke, and Daryl Leads With Imperfection and calls to help ask leaders to
• 1:45
  do the same, to create a foundational shift in their workplace.
• 1:49
  So, Daryl, welcome.
• 1:51
  So how does one end up talking about trust?
• 1:54
  Was there a trust school that you went to when you were there?
• 1:58
  So I grew up in a small town in Northern British Columbia, and it was somewhat isolated.
• 2:04
  There was just this sense that if you could help people, you should.
• 2:09
  And so I grew up with that feeling of community and responsibility.
• 2:14
  Not that everyone was nice.
• 2:15
  We just realized that if somebody else was having a hard time, you had to step in.
• 2:19
  And I had a series of traumatic incidents when I was younger.
• 2:29
  When I was 17, was playing hockey, junior hockey, and I was attacked by a fan of the club
• 2:35
  and beaten unconscious and stopped breathing several times on the way to the hospital.
• 2:42
  And I have a hereditary retinal disorder.
• 2:46
  I knew I was losing my eyesight, that I would be legally blind at some point.
• 2:49
  So my plan had been to think for a living, to train my brain to think for a living.
• 2:54
  And now all of a sudden I was somebody who couldn't think at all.
• 2:56
  I had post concussion syndrome and had the attention span of a fruit fly.
• 3:02
  And it gave me a profound sense of empathy for others who were struggling.
• 3:10
  That feeling of helplessness and hopelessness and loss, it gave me a strong sense of what
• 3:17
  others were going through.
• 3:19
  And I eventually moved to Victoria and was going to school there.
• 3:24
  And people just come sitting next to me on the bus and say, I'm really having a hard time.
• 3:28
  So complete strangers would just open up to me.
• 3:31
  And I got really curious about why that was happening.
• 3:35
  And so my life became this iterative process of going to school and studying and working and
• 3:42
  learning and adapting.
• 3:45
  I was working in native land claims in British Columbia for the federal government.
• 3:50
  And they asked me a series of deep philosophical questions like what is self
• 3:54
  government or what will the province look like fifty years after claims are settled?
• 3:59
  And the last question they asked me Roxanne was how do we convince a group of people who've
• 4:03
  shafted for over a hundred years they should trust us?
• 4:06
  And I thought, man, that is such a good question.
• 4:09
  And it gets to these long term disputes and understanding why they're so resilient and so
• 4:14
  hard to resolve.
• 4:16
  And so I went to Duke and wrote my doctoral thesis on building trust in hostile
• 4:20
  environments.
• 4:23
  And I just ended up having a couple of academics there who were leading experts,
• 4:28
  world's leading experts on the topic of trust.
• 4:31
  They were very helpful in the formative process of the doctoral thesis.
• 4:37
  But they told me afterwards, they said, when you first came to us with this project, we
• 4:40
  said, too big, too complex, he never solves it.
• 4:44
  We'll give him six months, he'll come crawling back.
• 4:46
  We'll let him chisel off a little piece and that'll be his thesis.
• 4:49
  And they said, six months in you are so far beyond us, we couldn't help anymore.
• 4:52
  All we could do is sit and watch.
• 4:53
  And here we are a couple of years later, we think you've solved it.
• 4:57
  And so I then went to McKinsey and Company, became a consultant, got to start applying the
• 5:05
  concepts from my thesis with clients and different colleagues.
• 5:13
  And then in 2001, was involved in a car accident, post concussion syndrome again, and
• 5:19
  just couldn't work those kinds of hours anymore.
• 5:22
  And eventually, one of my colleagues reached out to me and said, just come talk to my
• 5:26
  company.
• 5:28
  And he was running he was head of strategy for a mutual fund company.
• 5:33
  I find myself standing in front of them and I'm saying, you want me to talk about sustainable
• 5:37
  competitive advantage.
• 5:39
  That means you have an advantage that other people can't copy.
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  And you're a mutual fund company.
• 5:44
  There's nothing you do I can't copy.
• 5:46
  Right?
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  I could buy one share of every fund, and now I know how they're all built.
• 5:51
  I said, the only way you could develop a strategic advantage I couldn't copy is if you
• 5:55
  built deep long term relationships with your customers.
• 5:58
  And they said, that's it.
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  That's our strategy.
• 6:01
  And so they hired me to build a workshop focused on building trust.
• 6:08
  And I spent eighteen months developing the workshop and training everybody in the
• 6:11
  organization.
• 6:13
  After eighteen months, they hired Ipsys Reid to do a survey, found out that trust was the
• 6:18
  primary driver of the sales decision, and that they were dramatically more trusted than any of
• 6:23
  their competitors.
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  And so their parent organization, which was a global financial services firm, started sending
• 6:31
  teams from all over the world to figure out what they were doing.
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  And that was the start of a twenty year, twenty plus year journey of helping individuals and
• 6:40
  organizations better understand what trust is, how it works, and most importantly, how to
• 6:44
  build it.
• 6:47
  So what the what were the core tenets of your dissertation around trust?
• 6:54
  What did you find out from that work that you did in your PhD?
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  There's a few things.
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  One is I looked at most of the existing literature and research on trust and I
• 7:05
  discovered that fundamentally it was all talking about uncertainty.
• 7:10
  When we decide to trust someone, we ask ourselves two fundamental questions.
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  The first is how likely am I to be harmed?
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  Which is perceived uncertainty.
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  The second question is if I'm harmed, how bad is it going to hurt?
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  Which is perceived vulnerability.
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  In the uncertainty work, most of it was focused on the individual.
• 7:30
  But uncertainty also comes to us from the context, right, from the environment that we're
• 7:34
  embedded in.
• 7:35
  We trust people without knowing anything about them at times.
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  We go to a doctor, they say, Take off your clothes, and you do.
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  You can try that in other places.
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  It doesn't work.
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  Even if we had the same two people dressed the same and we took it from a doctor's office to a
• 7:50
  gas station restroom, it goes from credible to creepy in a heartbeat.
• 7:55
  And so I started developing a better understanding of the role that context played.
• 8:02
  I started including the concepts of vulnerability.
• 8:05
  Because most of the trust literature treats trust like a dichotomous variable.
• 8:09
  Like it's either present or absent, like an old time light switch.
• 8:13
  And the reality is we trust some people more than others.
• 8:17
  So our relationships can be shallow or they can be deeper.
• 8:21
  And in those deeper relationships, I conceptualize it as uncertainty times
• 8:25
  vulnerability gives us a level of perceived risk.
• 8:29
  And we each have a threshold of risk that we can tolerate.
• 8:32
  If we go beyond that threshold, we don't trust.
• 8:35
  If we're beneath it, then we do.
• 8:37
  And so if uncertainty is really high, then vulnerability has to be low.
• 8:43
  But in our deeper relationships that uncertainty gets suppressed, it goes way down
• 8:47
  and the range of vulnerability we can tolerate grows.
• 8:51
  And so that's what a deeper relationship looks like.
• 8:55
  And so having a way to talk about depth of relationship started to make a difference.
• 9:03
  But when it came to hostile environments, it was really the emotional components.
• 9:09
  Because most of the trust literature treats people like they're rational actors.
• 9:14
  And I don't know if you've met people before Roxanne but
• 9:18
  Maybe one or two, Daryl.
• 9:19
  Yeah, but we're not always rational.
• 9:23
  Absolutely not, yeah.
• 9:25
  So the more emotional we become, the more irrational we become.
• 9:31
  In places where people really dislike one another, we have to reset those emotional
• 9:35
  states somehow before we can start using some of that logic and reason to build trusting
• 9:42
  relationships.
• 9:44
  I go back to when I was practicing as it was about the psychological safety and the space
• 9:49
  within the context of that relationship that I was developing, right? Of
• 9:53
  Of course, I would be practicing.
• 9:56
  Of course I'm young so I think I believe that everybody's gonna trust me because I've never
• 10:00
  heard anybody.
• 10:01
  And boy did I ever learn really quickly that you know it was that recess of what was within
• 10:08
  that person's body and so many things that may be implicit that may have them have this huge
• 10:14
  visceral reaction that had nothing to do with me, but so much to do with everything they had
• 10:20
  done previous to them walking in that door.
• 10:24
  And, you know, I started my career at with Metro Toronto Police, Daryl, as a first
• 10:28
  responder, as a part of a trauma team.
• 10:30
  And I'm telling you, I went to school, to grad school, but they didn't prepare me for that.
• 10:35
  But boy No.
• 10:36
  You ever learn about yourself and about the human condition, especially when, you know,
• 10:42
  something traumatic has happened, a murder suicide or something.
• 10:44
  People in that state, right, where they're so helpless and every nothing is consistent, and
• 10:50
  you get all those states that people go into.
• 10:53
  So it's such an important when you talk about context, it's it's so very key.
• 10:58
  Yeah.
• 10:59
  I I learned a lot about context when I was asked by the Canadian military to help them try
• 11:02
  to build trust with the locals in Afghanistan.
• 11:05
  They identified the lack of trust there as a key impediment to rebuilding the nation.
• 11:13
  Boy, it became clear that one guy with a machine gun looks a lot like another guy with a
• 11:17
  machine gun.
• 11:18
  So those individual elements that we tend to rely on were all out the window.
• 11:25
  As a therapist, you rely on the setting to provide a sense of safety, psychological
• 11:32
  safety, a sense of this is a place where you can be vulnerable and open.
• 11:40
  For some people that setting is triggering.
• 11:43
  Absolutely.
• 11:44
  And the concept is you have to co create it.
• 11:46
  Right, Daryl?
• 11:47
  If you're not going to come along in the process, what becomes inevitable is if someone
• 11:53
  I think eventually, most people, if they end up I can't say everybody, but if they're mandated,
• 11:57
  that's another thing.
• 11:58
  If the judge sends them or whatever situation or they're mandated from work or partner,
• 12:04
  whatever.
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  But
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  ultimately, with time, what happens is if that person learns how to just maybe sit in the
• 12:13
  moment and eventually take time, it's possible, but you never know who the one that is that are
• 12:20
  is least likely to trust you.
• 12:21
  That's one thing I learned over many years Yeah.
• 12:24
  This way back when.
• 12:26
  Well, when I was injured, I was in Ontario the last And it's a very adversarial healthcare
• 12:34
  system when it comes to insurance companies and those kinds of things.
• 12:37
  So I would find myself sitting in front of psychotherapists who had been hired by the
• 12:42
  insurance company to prove that I was just depressed or malingering or whatever.
• 12:47
  That's a challenging environment for them to get you to be open and honest.
• 12:52
  Absolutely.
• 12:53
  Absolutely.
• 12:53
  Because they stand between, am I going to get long term or not, or am I making this up or
• 12:59
  whatever.
• 13:00
  Right?
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  Like, I mean
• 13:01
  Right.
• 13:01
  You know, it it is that's a tough kind of space to be because what's the person going to
• 13:06
  they're gonna believe that you're you don't have their best interest because you're working
• 13:10
  on behalf of the person that's kind of signing their checks.
• 13:12
  That's a tough one.
• 13:13
  When you talk a little bit about context then, you talk about Afghanistan.
• 13:17
  That's something where it's like shifting sand, I would assume.
• 13:21
  Like you said, a guy with a machine gun looks like a guy with a machine gun.
• 13:25
  Did they make inroads when you worked with them to to start at least, I'm gonna say, dusting
• 13:31
  the surface to be able to create an extra connection.
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  They did.
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  But their acknowledgement was that it had been so long that they weren't going to have
• 13:40
  complete success there.
• 13:41
  It had become more of an experimental exercise because they knew that they were visitors.
• 13:48
  That they weren't permanent residents.
• 13:50
  And Afghanistan is a place that's seen many visitors, all with the best of intentions, all
• 13:56
  with the belief that they were doing what was in the best interest of the people involved,
• 14:00
  without ever consulting those people to find out what best looked like for them.
• 14:05
  So they did make progress in trying to create pockets of stability within the country,
• 14:10
  because people weren't investing in their future because they weren't convinced there was
• 14:16
  going be a payoff.
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  So people didn't become mechanics because then they became of interest to the Taliban and
• 14:24
  others.
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  And no one had vehicles that they could fix or could afford to pay them to fix them
• 14:30
  regardless.
• 14:31
  So the rules were set up against any kind of collaborative endeavor.
• 14:37
  And we've seen recently the Nobel Prize winners for economics were the authors of the book, Why
• 14:45
  Nations Fail.
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  It's because there's not stable infrastructure, the institutions aren't stable and reliable, so
• 14:53
  people stop investing in their future.
• 14:56
  They start just subsisting and it stagnates everything.
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  And that was very much what was going on in Afghanistan and that's what's starting to
• 15:04
  happen around the world now with institutions coming under threat pretty consistently.
• 15:08
  Go back to like you said, some of the elements is the context of the environment and what kind
• 15:18
  of we're gonna use the I always call it the place code hangers, like the vision, the
• 15:23
  mission, all those things.
• 15:25
  All those beautiful things when you walk into the foyer of all these head offices that I
• 15:30
  would have to go into as an executive as part of health and wellness strategy.
• 15:37
  And then when you get in to understand what was going on, oftentimes, the incongruence between
• 15:43
  the mission, the vision and leadership were not one in the same.
• 15:49
  Right?
• 15:49
  There's a a real lack of integrity there often, where there's these promises that organizations
• 15:54
  are making to the world, their customers, all their stakeholders, including their employees.
• 16:00
  And then they don't have a clear sense of what those promises really are.
• 16:05
  I had a great experience working with a group of senior executives from Telus, who's a
• 16:09
  telecom here in Canada.
• 16:11
  This was years ago.
• 16:13
  And I said, so the future is friendly.
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  What does that mean?
• 16:17
  What kind of promise are you making?
• 16:20
  And this group of senior executives all just looked at each other and said, well, we're not
• 16:26
  quite sure.
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  I said, because as a cynic, I would say the future is friendly, it's the present you have
• 16:30
  to worry about.
• 16:32
  And they said, yeah, that's the line that gets shared around here as well.
• 16:37
  And so when we make these sort of mission statements and visions and all those kinds of
• 16:42
  things, people interpret the world through stories.
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  And if their stories don't line up with the narrative you're trying to sell, they feel like
• 16:52
  there's hypocrisy.
• 16:53
  They feel like, No, you're lying to me.
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  And if you're lying to me about some of the things that you've made obvious, what else are
• 16:59
  you withholding from me?
• 17:03
  And so I think we often start with the best of intentions, noble purpose and all those kinds
• 17:07
  of things.
• 17:09
  But unless we're consistent, the three elements of us as individuals are benevolence, integrity
• 17:18
  and ability.
• 17:20
  And these are all levers that we can pull.
• 17:22
  I believe that there are 10 levers we can pull.
• 17:25
  What I have control over as an individual is how I show up.
• 17:29
  So it's, do I have your best interest at heart?
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  Benevolence.
• 17:33
  Do I follow through on my promises and do my actions line up with the values that I express?
• 17:37
  Integrity.
• 17:38
  And do I have the capability to do what I say I'm going to do?
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  Ability.
• 17:46
  Organizations tend to get this wrong fairly often.
• 17:50
  When I work with companies, they don't include stakeholders in the conversation about what
• 17:56
  their best interests are or what success looks like.
• 17:59
  They don't do a great job of walking the talk and then telling the story about how their
• 18:07
  decisions line up with their values.
• 18:10
  So they leave it open to interpretation so they can make a decision and have 20 different
• 18:14
  perceptions of why they did it.
• 18:18
  And they don't often do a great job of defining what excellence is.
• 18:23
  And so all three of those levers, they tend to fall short.
• 18:26
  And really what I do to help people build trust is go through and systematically say, where
• 18:31
  does uncertainty come from us in the context.
• 18:35
  How do we take steps to reduce that uncertainty for somebody else?
• 18:38
  If we were gonna show benevolence, we would have a conversation about what does success
• 18:42
  look like for you?
• 18:44
  And when you and I first started this conversation, you asked me what I would like to
• 18:47
  focus on.
• 18:48
  I said, what would make the most sense for your audience?
• 18:50
  That's an attempt for me to show benevolence.
• 18:53
  Right.
• 18:57
  Integrity is, do I actually try to do what's best for your audience even after you've told
• 19:02
  me?
• 19:03
  Because my values are I want to make the world a better place.
• 19:08
  I've been nominated as one of the thought leaders in the world on trust.
• 19:12
  We don't have a lot of it right now, Roxanne.
• 19:15
  My goodness, Daryl.
• 19:16
  Like, what a time when your booker connected with me.
• 19:19
  I said, we need this conversation more than ever with all things going on in the world,
• 19:25
  obviously, US and Canada, but it's a global kind of spinning.
• 19:29
  It seems like there's so much going on.
• 19:31
  And maybe we're becoming more conscious because it's so much more on on the world stage.
• 19:37
  Yeah.
• 19:37
  But there is a lot there's always been a lot of international things going on.
• 19:42
  But I now because what's it doing to us, Canada?
• 19:45
  What then it's these are our neighbors.
• 19:47
  These are my my family lives in The US.
• 19:49
  All those things.
• 19:50
  And now we're really starting to think about it.
• 19:52
  Whereas there's all these issues have been a lot of issues have been going on in the world
• 19:55
  for a very long time, but now we're actually being a bit more conscious and vocal about it
• 20:00
  compared to timescale.
• 20:01
  Yeah.
• 20:03
  Well, if we think about it, our vulnerability is fairly stable.
• 20:06
  We've got to pay our bills and help our family and think about our community and all of those
• 20:11
  kinds of things.
• 20:12
  It changes over time and we could have moments where it spikes, but it's relatively constant.
• 20:17
  But when the uncertainty starts to bounce like crazy, trust gets harder because we're still
• 20:24
  trying to fit below that threshold and our sense of risk is bouncing with the uncertainty.
• 20:30
  And when we ask people to be just a little bit more vulnerable, and that's what trust is, is
• 20:34
  be just a little bit more vulnerable to me.
• 20:37
  It's a hard ask.
• 20:38
  It gets harder and harder when the uncertainty is fluctuating so much.
• 20:42
  Which is what we've been living in.
• 20:44
  I think of myself when all of that was happening more so, not with all of Canada, I
• 20:49
  live on on a part of town as well.
• 20:51
  Right?
• 20:52
  Yeah.
• 20:52
  And we did go over often, you have friends over there and all of a sudden it became a thing
• 20:57
  that I can't even trust that I can cross the bridge or things that we wouldn't I've lived
• 21:03
  here for forty years and had never thought about.
• 21:06
  And now it was people were petrified.
• 21:09
  And I'm like, my son goes to stayed in school in The US.
• 21:12
  It's fine.
• 21:12
  But people still even now, even though things have kinda calmed down, people are so scared,
• 21:17
  to your point, to that element of people are unsure what's happening, so hence, they can't
• 21:26
  they feel like they can't let go of it to be able to kind of continue and be productive.
• 21:31
  I can't plan.
• 21:33
  Well, I hear people say, I can't plan things as simple as what's important to us, our trips and
• 21:38
  Right.
• 21:38
  Like that because what if what if I lose my job?
• 21:41
  What so you you are definitely seeing that much more of people Yeah.
• 21:46
  Being scared.
• 21:47
  And we used to have a pattern.
• 21:49
  When we lived in smaller communities, we didn't have social networking the way that we do now.
• 21:56
  We could be idiots multiple times and still overcome.
• 22:00
  I could be an idiot multiple times and my friends would say, Hey, that's not cool.
• 22:06
  Or you need to smarten up.
• 22:07
  Because they were stuck with me.
• 22:09
  And
• 22:11
  what we've seen now is a lot of our relationships are a mile wide and an inch deep.
• 22:15
  So they're not as resilient as they used to be.
• 22:18
  And we struggle to deepen them because we're so distracted with so many different things.
• 22:22
  And so it's a set of skills that have atrophied.
• 22:25
  And so we need to be more intentional than we've ever been about building trust with
• 22:29
  others.
• 22:30
  Taking steps to reduce that uncertainty for them so that they can tolerate a larger range
• 22:35
  of vulnerability with us.
• 22:37
  So let's say I'm a CEO listening right now, and my sector was still okay, but it's been
• 22:46
  impacted.
• 22:46
  It may be coming, and I have to do a town hall with my employees.
• 22:52
  What kinds of things would you suggest that CEO or senior VP start doing to prep in order to
• 23:01
  have a con conversation of let's say it's one of many to come.
• 23:05
  Let's say it's one and done.
• 23:07
  One of many to come through this time.
• 23:09
  What kind of things would you suggest he or she consider or think about in order as they frame
• 23:15
  or or they map out a kind of what they're gonna say in that speech?
• 23:20
  So a lot of times what I suggest to people is that we actually need to include other people
• 23:23
  in the conversation.
• 23:25
  So rather than just thinking about it from my own perspective as a CEO, I would have
• 23:31
  conversations with folks saying, does success look like for you?
• 23:34
  What would it look like for you to be successful here or elsewhere in your role, in
• 23:41
  your world?
• 23:42
  What does that look like?
• 23:43
  So that I can actually talk about the best interests of my stakeholders.
• 23:47
  I talk with clients to find out what success looks like for them moving forward.
• 23:53
  I would be trying to create a safe harbor because what we've seen consistently is that
• 23:58
  trust drives performance.
• 24:00
  People will go through a wall for you if you can build relationships with them that they
• 24:06
  feel safe and secure in.
• 24:08
  And so that means that we're trying to show that we have the best interests of our clients
• 24:13
  and our people at heart and that we're actually considering those best interests.
• 24:19
  And so even starting that conversation, one of the conversations I arm people with, because in
• 24:24
  my work, systematically, I show people the 10 levers and then I show them how to pull those
• 24:30
  10 levers.
• 24:31
  Roxanne, we all have the ability to build trust.
• 24:33
  Some are just better than others.
• 24:35
  Those who aren't very good have a lever that they pull and they pull it over and over again
• 24:39
  and hope it lines up.
• 24:40
  Those two are better have multiple levers.
• 24:44
  And those who are really good have multiple levers and they know when to pull which one.
• 24:48
  And when to adapt it as well because you could see some people just not reading I'm like you.
• 24:53
  I'm the kind person that I'm out there, and people talk to me all the time.
• 24:58
  And I'm aware if someone shares something simple and you shared some personal things, I
• 25:03
  would remember those things.
• 25:04
  So if I have, let's say, ran into you, I'd be like, oh, remember you told me about that time
• 25:08
  when you were in Ontario or the fact that you know, about your son or something because I'd
• 25:13
  be so, oh, how's that going?
• 25:14
  Be and then people go, you remember that?
• 25:17
  Like
• 25:17
  You actually heard me.
• 25:19
  Yes.
• 25:19
  And I'm like, of course.
• 25:21
  Because I know how what it feels like.
• 25:23
  Of course, in our worlds, like your world, we're meeting a ton of people all the time.
• 25:27
  And then I try to what little thing could I remember?
• 25:31
  And I think, like, you talked a little bit about growing up in a little rural town in in
• 25:36
  is BC, you said.
• 25:37
  Right?
• 25:37
  Northern BC.
• 25:38
  Yeah.
• 25:38
  Yeah.
• 25:39
  I grew up in Trinidad And Tobago.
• 25:40
  I grew up in a little tiny island in a village, and it was self correcting to your point that
• 25:46
  we knew that when we went out as teenagers, if we got in trouble by the time we got back home,
• 25:51
  our parents would already know.
• 25:53
  So we had that element about the auntie that would serve you if you were out or if you were
• 25:59
  gonna go up and have a drink even though you're they did serve you.
• 26:02
  But we knew we could only have one drink because we would be in trouble not just with
• 26:07
  our parents, but with the person that serves us once a week or the parents that were picking us
• 26:13
  up or whatever.
• 26:14
  So that to your point, that was that self correcting kind of element.
• 26:17
  And Right.
• 26:18
  And I in that little village, I learned about connection and extended family, and people were
• 26:25
  all taking care of each other implicitly and explicitly.
• 26:30
  So I think I kind of just rolled up into that.
• 26:33
  And I remember when I came to Canada, I thought I would get in the elevator, Darryl.
• 26:39
  I went to U of T.
• 26:40
  Right.
• 26:41
  And then I would, you know, get in the elevator.
• 26:44
  It was a sixteen year old just starting university, and then I would say, good morning.
• 26:48
  How are you today?
• 26:49
  Because that's how we we talk.
• 26:51
  That's how you
• 26:51
  yeah.
• 26:52
  Everybody would look down and I'd be like, what did I is something wrong?
• 26:56
  I would and then guess what guess what started to happen to me couple months in?
• 27:01
  You stopped asking.
• 27:02
  I started to look down because I I felt like nobody wanted to talk to me anyway, and I felt
• 27:06
  like I was doing something wrong.
• 27:08
  So it's that, again, going back to some of those little things that we can do that's so
• 27:13
  simple, you get away from.
• 27:15
  And to your point, so you said, we're not very we don't have those deep roots anymore, and
• 27:21
  we're not having those your friends are not gonna ditch you.
• 27:24
  Because your friends may be in Tokyo that you talk to once a week because you're gaming with
• 27:29
  them or something like you know?
• 27:30
  Exactly.
• 27:31
  And so if I'm a leader, I'm thinking about all of those things.
• 27:36
  I'm thinking about how do I show benevolence?
• 27:38
  How do I show integrity?
• 27:40
  How do I show, hey, the world's changing.
• 27:43
  It's evolving and it's uncomfortable for all of us.
• 27:46
  But our values are, whether it's people first or client first and here's how that's going to
• 27:51
  manifest for us regardless of what we see out in the external world.
• 27:56
  Here's what excellence looks like from our perspective so that we create clarity.
• 28:02
  Then we're very mindful of the context.
• 28:05
  Here's the things that are gonna change if the organization changes.
• 28:09
  Here's the impact that's gonna have, but here's the expectations that come with that And here's
• 28:15
  my responsibility.
• 28:17
  Part of what I talk about when I talk about leading with imperfection is being a role
• 28:22
  model.
• 28:23
  So often leaders feel like they need to be perfect.
• 28:27
  And the reality is that sends a message that it's not okay to make mistakes.
• 28:31
  It's not okay to explore and adapt and evolve and learn new things.
• 28:36
  And the encouragement I give to leaders is to stand up and say because I'll ask them, are you
• 28:41
  the same leader you were five years ago?
• 28:42
  And they'll say, no.
• 28:43
  I've learned and evolved in Chrome.
• 28:46
  And I'll say, you gonna be the same leader five years from now?
• 28:49
  I sure hope not.
• 28:50
  Hey.
• 28:51
  So that means you're gonna let go of some of the things that got you here and step into some
• 28:55
  of the things that would make you great in your role.
• 28:59
  But that's gonna require a learning curve.
• 29:02
  You're not gonna be perfect.
• 29:04
  And what you should be saying to your people is, I I need to learn new things.
• 29:07
  I need to grow and evolve.
• 29:08
  I need to get better.
• 29:10
  I will stumble.
• 29:12
  I may fall.
• 29:14
  And my expectation is that you'll be there.
• 29:17
  Help me get back up, dust myself off.
• 29:19
  Because that's exactly what I'm gonna do for you.
• 29:23
  But you know what?
• 29:23
  I often talk about that in the work that I do as well.
• 29:27
  And the perception is that the leader helps their employee and not the other way around.
• 29:33
  And I always think about reciprocity, right?
• 29:36
  Because I love that, Daryl.
• 29:38
  Because truly, I've been a leader in different roles that I've ran teams in hospitals and
• 29:43
  those types of things.
• 29:44
  And I would always say when I garnered the most momentum with my teams was oftentimes when I
• 29:51
  rolled up my sleeves and I said, oh, I'll do that.
• 29:55
  And they go they would look at me and go, what do you mean you're gonna do?
• 29:57
  I said, that's a difficult patient.
• 29:59
  I will take care of it.
• 30:01
  I will go in with you.
• 30:02
  I will strategize with you.
• 30:03
  I will deal with it.
• 30:04
  And they would say, wow.
• 30:06
  Because then they could see that I was actually willing to do what it took.
• 30:10
  Yes.
• 30:10
  It's, quote, unquote, I'm running the business unit, but we're having a tough time.
• 30:15
  You're having a tough time.
• 30:16
  The environment's kind of steady today because of the situation.
• 30:20
  So I'm gonna roll up my sleeves on.
• 30:21
  I'm gonna go in and out.
• 30:22
  And then what's funny because I was a younger leader as well and newer, and then you could
• 30:27
  see it.
• 30:28
  They were trying not to trust you, but with time, what started to happen is they couldn't
• 30:32
  help it.
• 30:33
  They were like, Oh, I'm still having all those past memories of people that did it badly and
• 30:39
  she seems okay, but I don't know.
• 30:41
  I don't know.
• 30:41
  And they would kind of pull back from me and treat me badly or whatever.
• 30:45
  Took quite a while.
• 30:46
  Right?
• 30:47
  But it's that consistency.
• 30:49
  Showing them that you can do as much and you can demonstrate and you can also help them out.
• 30:54
  But you've got an appreciation for their expertise because you're problem solving with
• 30:57
  them.
• 30:57
  You're not saying I'm coming in having all the answers.
• 31:00
  You're saying this is a difficult patient and we're going to solve this together.
• 31:05
  The truth is that often as a leader, we get there because we've developed a set of skills.
• 31:09
  Those skills begin to atrophy the minute we stop using them.
• 31:12
  And other people come up behind us and they may not do it exactly the way we did.
• 31:16
  They're not as efficient at it.
• 31:17
  They're not as good at it yet.
• 31:19
  But they may become better.
• 31:21
  We should be People ask me, how do you build trust?
• 31:24
  And I say, you start with a little dose of vulnerability.
• 31:27
  So you go first, which shows them that it's okay.
• 31:32
  And then a little bit of benevolence.
• 31:33
  Right?
• 31:34
  How can I help you?
• 31:35
  How can I make this better for you?
• 31:38
  And when we started, my aspiration was to be one of the best guests you've ever had.
• 31:44
  And I told you that.
• 31:46
  Yes, you did.
• 31:47
  You're delivering through and through, Darrell.
• 31:49
  Love Oh, thank this conversation because it's In my book I talk about leaders starting with
• 31:58
  their family.
• 31:59
  Like say, when you try I have leaders that will say, well I'm not really stressed, I'm very
• 32:04
  good, I'm professional at work and I go, oh hold on, You must have tells.
• 32:09
  And they go, well, I don't show it at work.
• 32:11
  Okay.
• 32:11
  Let's talk.
• 32:12
  And then I I say to them, talk to your youngest child.
• 32:14
  Don't go to the oldest one.
• 32:15
  They're gonna tell you what kind of start with the youngest and go upwards because you're
• 32:19
  gonna get you're gonna get the raw goods your youngest one.
• 32:22
  They're gonna say, Mom, you do blah or you do this when you're not feeling good.
• 32:27
  They come back
• 32:28
  to
• 32:28
  me oftentimes and they go, That was the greatest exercise.
• 32:31
  Because I realize that I go to work in that state and I'm not recognizing how I'm coming
• 32:37
  across because I might be already stressed and not being able to relate to someone that's
• 32:42
  really different from me or things
• 32:44
  like So
• 32:46
  a lot of that introspection and self awareness is so key for leaders.
• 32:51
  It really is.
• 32:52
  When it comes to trust, Roxanne, we find that people really don't have a good sense.
• 32:58
  95% of the people believe they're more trustworthy than average, which is not only
• 33:04
  statistically impossible, but it's problematic.
• 33:07
  Because if you and I had a disagreement and I thought, Oh, we don't trust each other.
• 33:12
  If I'm part of that 95%, I assume it's you.
• 33:15
  And I don't do the work I need to do to make things better.
• 33:19
  The biggest gap we find is between leaders, how much leaders think they're trusted and how much
• 33:23
  they actually are.
• 33:25
  And so they assume everything's great, but they never have that blunt honest conversation like
• 33:32
  you're talking about with a younger child or their children as they grow older.
• 33:39
  And so they're never looking for evidence that they have trust issues.
• 33:46
  They're just looking for the validated ones that says, I am trustworthy versus saying, with
• 33:50
  that last decision that we made, I noticed that you seem to not be as invested in that last
• 33:57
  decision.
• 33:57
  I'm curious.
• 33:59
  What parts of that do you think I was instrumental in making it successful?
• 34:04
  And what did what are the things that I missed from your perspective?
• 34:07
  Because then you're opening up the conversation to your point about what did I miss because I'm
• 34:12
  so much into my own world, which we are as human beings.
• 34:15
  Right.
• 34:16
  Not thinking that we're doing something that might be rubbing someone the wrong way.
• 34:20
  Not everybody thinks like you.
• 34:21
  All those things.
• 34:22
  Right?
• 34:22
  They don't have all the information you have.
• 34:25
  Yeah.
• 34:25
  And we get stuck with this locus of control problem.
• 34:27
  Right?
• 34:27
  Is it internal or external locus of control?
• 34:29
  So when I'm successful, I had students that I was teaching in undergrad, and I would say to
• 34:36
  them, internal locus of control means you're master of your own fate.
• 34:39
  You make things happen in the world.
• 34:41
  External locus of control means you're buffeted by the winds of fate.
• 34:44
  Things happen to you.
• 34:45
  Who here has an internal locus of control?
• 34:47
  And all the hands would go up.
• 34:48
  Right?
• 34:49
  I'd say, is fantastic.
• 34:51
  So that means if you don't do well in this class, it's all you.
• 34:54
  It's not that I didn't teach it properly or it was too hard or the test wasn't fair.
• 34:58
  It's you.
• 34:59
  I'll kinda go, oh, wait a minute.
• 35:01
  Yeah, we have an internal of control when we're successful and an external locus of control
• 35:05
  when we fail.
• 35:07
  Often.
• 35:08
  Not all the time, but often.
• 35:10
  And so leaders can fall into that trap where they think, when things go well, it's me.
• 35:15
  When things go poorly, it's those terrible people I have to work with.
• 35:19
  And So
• 35:20
  going back to that definition of success is really key then.
• 35:23
  So I have a perception of what success means, looks like, how we're gonna experience this,
• 35:29
  how behaviorally it's gonna look, the thought patterns, how are we achieving the goal.
• 35:34
  But I want to understand from every stakeholder what does it mean to them and to understand
• 35:40
  that gives you more of a, I would say, a c six three sixty metric of areas that I think I'm
• 35:48
  doing well in.
• 35:48
  I may be rudely awakened to realize, like, I am poor in those areas.
• 35:54
  Yeah.
• 35:54
  So when I said I want to be one of your best guests ever, I can ask you what that looks
• 35:58
  like.
• 35:59
  But boy, if I really want to nail it, we would ask your listeners.
• 36:02
  Absolutely.
• 36:02
  Who are your best guests?
• 36:04
  What are the attributes that made them fantastic?
• 36:07
  How did they come across?
• 36:09
  What did they leave us with?
• 36:11
  And so for each of those attributes, if I want to show you benevolence, I'd have to actually
• 36:17
  understand what good looks like for you.
• 36:19
  I've come in with an assumption that it means being as open and honest as I can with your
• 36:24
  listeners, talking to them about trust, not holding things back, and trying to be able to
• 36:30
  tell stories that keep them engaged and interested and not being too much of an
• 36:34
  academic.
• 36:35
  Integrity is, do my actions line up with my value of trying to make the world a better
• 36:39
  place?
• 36:40
  Ability is, do I have the confidence?
• 36:44
  Boy, I should be asking again what good looks like.
• 36:49
  For each of those Right?
• 36:50
  So I think I'm sure.
• 36:51
  I I think you're making everybody think.
• 36:53
  Right?
• 36:53
  Because if I don't know what success looks like in a company based on those beautiful little
• 37:00
  plaques we were talking about earlier and I am leading that town hall like we were talking
• 37:05
  earlier, I'm ready you're gonna see the people with the bubbles in their heads saying, oh,
• 37:09
  there we go again.
• 37:11
  Another rhetoric.
• 37:12
  You know, we've heard that last year.
• 37:14
  We're gonna if you can kinda look at all those bubbles above people's heads, you would be
• 37:19
  missing you probably would get some people agreeing with you, but a lot most people have
• 37:24
  their own thought patterns about the concept of where you the place that you're at, and they
• 37:29
  haven't had the opportunity to share it Versus if you went to interview different
• 37:34
  stakeholders, you would have a better sense to be able to deliver something in a more kind I
• 37:39
  of know this is not working well.
• 37:42
  I know we're so so in this area, and I think we're hitting it out of park over here.
• 37:46
  But I still have to check with the rest of you to ensure that I'm getting it right because,
• 37:51
  you know, I'm just learning too.
• 37:54
  And you make me feel good, but why you what you share with me so we can go in and we can build
• 37:59
  the things that we need to to be able to be successful.
• 38:02
  Part of the challenge here is the awareness problem.
• 38:07
  So I ask people who do you trust?
• 38:09
  And I get these sort of close tight personal relationships.
• 38:12
  Parents, siblings, spouse.
• 38:14
  And the reality is we trust people all the time.
• 38:17
  When we go to a restaurant, we get in a cab, we get on an airplane.
• 38:21
  But when I flip that question and say who trusts you?
• 38:25
  Trusts you.
• 38:26
  A lot of senior leaders kind of look at me and they go, how would I know?
• 38:30
  How do I know if my people trust me?
• 38:34
  The definition I use is trust is a willingness to make yourself vulnerable.
• 38:38
  When you can't completely predict how someone else is going to behave.
• 38:42
  So you think about how can people make themselves vulnerable to me and do they?
• 38:47
  And so all of your listeners out there, perform this thought exercise.
• 38:53
  If you're a leader or a parent, think about what are the ways that the people you're
• 38:58
  leading can make themselves vulnerable to you.
• 39:02
  They can give you real honest feedback.
• 39:04
  They can take risks, try new things.
• 39:08
  They can admit that they've made mistakes or they don't have knowledge of things.
• 39:12
  They can come to you with bad news.
• 39:14
  Are you the first to know or the last to know when things are going wrong?
• 39:19
  That's a sobering kind of conversation to have, and I would say that a lot of people are afraid
• 39:25
  to have those conversations.
• 39:28
  Even at home, some people are very afraid to have it because they perceive that things are
• 39:33
  tripping along with any blips, so we should be we're probably all good.
• 39:37
  But to have that open conversation to say to my son or my partner, The last time we had pizza,
• 39:45
  let's use that as an example, yet again, did you really want to have pizza or were you
• 39:50
  giving in to me again?
• 39:53
  I asked my sons, What would a great dad look like?
• 39:58
  And I was terrified because I was worried they were going to say, not you.
• 40:03
  I'm legally blind, I've got post concussion syndrome.
• 40:06
  I'm flawed.
• 40:07
  I'm a flawed human being.
• 40:10
  And their response was, these are the things I love about you.
• 40:14
  These are the things you do that really matter to me.
• 40:16
  And
• 40:20
  they tell me things I never would have told my parents.
• 40:24
  So I've raised them using the model that I have.
• 40:29
  I've worked with senior executives all over the world.
• 40:32
  We've seen dramatic change.
• 40:33
  I had one of our last clients, the head of HR said, yeah.
• 40:37
  My husband was a leader that you worked with for a couple of years.
• 40:41
  He said he became a different human being.
• 40:44
  He was a better parent, better father, better husband, better colleague, better leader.
• 40:50
  And that's what I want for my teams.
• 40:53
  Yeah.
• 40:54
  Because vulnerability the affinity bias that we believe that people are just like us, even when
• 40:59
  they're in their homes.
• 41:00
  Right?
• 41:01
  And then I have one son, Daryl, and I assume he thinks like me.
• 41:05
  And then once in a while, something will come up, I'll go, how come I was the second to be
• 41:09
  informed?
• 41:10
  He goes, because I knew you'd get upset, mom.
• 41:13
  And I go, really?
• 41:15
  And we had a situation not too long ago.
• 41:18
  And then we sat down and talked about it.
• 41:19
  He goes, because you get emotional sometimes when things don't go your way.
• 41:24
  And I go, interesting information.
• 41:26
  I said, so what is it that I do?
• 41:29
  And I because I don't raise my voice or anything.
• 41:30
  He goes, You do get emotional and then I think, should I wait to tell her along the way after
• 41:37
  I've told a couple other people?
• 41:39
  I said, I want to know what I could do that would be different so I would be in the top I'd
• 41:44
  be top of the heap.
• 41:46
  And he said, just recognize that when sometimes and I'm very open, but again, flawed, like you
• 41:52
  said.
• 41:53
  Yeah.
• 41:53
  I have an idea in my mind about potentially some direction that he, quote, unquote, should
• 41:58
  go in, And it may be not something that he's entertaining.
• 42:03
  And then he waits to make the decision and then comes with, by the way, I made that decision.
• 42:07
  I just thought you should know.
• 42:08
  And then off we
• 42:10
  go.
• 42:10
  Right.
• 42:11
  Well, in what I've told my sons is it's not about me wanting to control you, it's about my
• 42:20
  anxiety.
• 42:21
  I'm never more vulnerable than when it comes to you.
• 42:25
  So I can't tolerate a lot of uncertainty.
• 42:28
  And a lot of parents will handle that by monitoring and trying to control their kids,
• 42:33
  which is really counterproductive to their growth and development.
• 42:37
  Instead, they tell me and we talk through it.
• 42:40
  And my philosophy has always been crap happens, it's how we respond that matters.
• 42:45
  And so they have come to learn that when they come to me with things and say, this is what
• 42:50
  happened to me, or this is what happened when I was involved, my response is always, okay.
• 42:59
  How do I help you deal with this most effectively?
• 43:03
  It's not about judgment, some element of curiosity, and just an overwhelming desire to
• 43:10
  help.
• 43:12
  And so once you switch that story in their heads of he's judging me or he's disappointed
• 43:17
  in me to he wants what's best for me, it starts to get easier for them.
• 43:25
  And I think of a leader doing that, right, to your point, because, I mean, we are one and the
• 43:30
  same.
• 43:31
  Gone are the days when I was in corporate and they say leave personal Roxanne at home and
• 43:35
  bring professional Roxanne to work.
• 43:37
  And you are gonna be making change overall if you're applying the concepts that we're talking
• 43:44
  about, Daryl, where you're just gonna be just a better citizen in your community, in your
• 43:50
  friendships, in your primary relationships, all those things, because you're gonna start to
• 43:56
  recognize the how and and it makes you feel good too.
• 43:58
  At first, it may not make you feel good.
• 44:00
  But when you start to see the change in others around you, it's a very it's a nice it's a nice
• 44:05
  feeling.
• 44:06
  And as we discussed at the start before we started recording, I believe that the more
• 44:11
  senior we become, the less direct control we have over outcomes.
• 44:14
  The more dependent we become on those we lead to reach our goals and objectives.
• 44:18
  And that's a daunting thing when we look at engagement levels on recent polls, which are
• 44:24
  among the lowest we've ever seen.
• 44:26
  Seventy percent of workers report being disengaged at work.
• 44:32
  With seventeen or eighteen percent of those feeling actively disengaged, meaning they are
• 44:37
  engaged in destructive behaviour.
• 44:39
  Boy, if you are a leader that can turn that around, you can really differentiate yourself
• 44:44
  and your organisation.
• 44:47
  Yeah.
• 44:47
  Because you're not there to you're managing.
• 44:49
  You could be wherever, but the impact and that connection that you have with people, they
• 44:57
  wanna do good by people they care about.
• 45:00
  And I think of my career, Darryl, and I've probably two or three leaders that I reported
• 45:08
  to that were phenomenal leaders.
• 45:11
  Yeah.
• 45:11
  And I would, if I could have walked a water for them, I would have because Yeah.
• 45:16
  They made me feel seen.
• 45:17
  They they recognize when I tripped.
• 45:20
  They would say, okay.
• 45:21
  Well, dust that dust those feet off.
• 45:24
  Right.
• 45:24
  Let's do let's run through this again.
• 45:27
  And they you know, and this is when you're learning and growing as a leader.
• 45:31
  And they were always there.
• 45:32
  They were always safe harbor to say, okay.
• 45:35
  Well, that didn't work so well.
• 45:36
  So now what are you what are we gonna do?
• 45:38
  What are you gonna do?
• 45:39
  What do you
• 45:40
  need from
• 45:40
  me?
• 45:41
  What do you need different from me?
• 45:42
  And that's how I think I learned to be a better leader is from being around these amazing
• 45:47
  people that were demonstrating it over and over again.
• 45:51
  Right.
• 45:52
  Well, that ability to be humble and say, I don't have all the answers.
• 45:56
  Let's talk about how to fix that.
• 45:58
  Or the ability to bring up a story of, yeah, when I was a young leader, these are some of
• 46:02
  the mistakes that I made too.
• 46:04
  And in my situation, I tried this.
• 46:07
  Being able to render meaningful practical advice, being able to help people in the
• 46:15
  moment, and not losing your cool.
• 46:19
  Being calm and steady.
• 46:20
  Yeah.
• 46:20
  You could take away so much, Right?
• 46:22
  Like, you work so hard and then when you'd be in meetings and you see people losing their
• 46:26
  cool and then go inside again, they start to say less, risk less, and all those things.
• 46:31
  Right?
• 46:32
  That's a tough unfortunately, I've been on the other end of that one too many times in my kind
• 46:37
  of corporate career along the way.
• 46:39
  Yeah.
• 46:40
  Now, Darrell, we've well gone over time, but I wanna have one last question.
• 46:45
  Right?
• 46:46
  Sure.
• 46:46
  Because I think this is important.
• 46:48
  So you go in, you do this work, and we know there's change in leadership all the time.
• 46:54
  We know CEOs come in, their tenures aren't that long, or directors or VBB comes.
• 47:00
  They come in, and they cycle out or they go they leave or they go to other industry.
• 47:04
  If a company is trying to maintain the things that, say, you're teaching, right, or explore
• 47:12
  what what kinds of things do they need to ensure is in place for this element of trust
• 47:18
  that you would have been developing with them stays so it moves on to the next kind of
• 47:23
  cohort?
• 47:25
  So a big part of this is the context.
• 47:28
  And one of the things I've worked with some senior executives from multinational
• 47:34
  organizations who've got truly global teams.
• 47:37
  They said the big differentiator is the vocabulary.
• 47:40
  The fact that we're able to speak about things, not saying, oh, those people don't trust us,
• 47:46
  but being able to say those people are uncertain and here's why they're uncertain or
• 47:51
  start those conversations around how can we make you more comfortable.
• 47:55
  But it's really about making sure that the structures in place create the incentives for
• 48:01
  the right behaviors.
• 48:03
  Because people will adapt to their incentives.
• 48:05
  And so being really thoughtful about the context.
• 48:09
  There's research that talks about givers and takers.
• 48:12
  Adam Grant has this great piece on it.
• 48:15
  And he suggests that givers actually drive value for organizations, but they don't always
• 48:23
  end up at the top of the performance metrics.
• 48:26
  They're often pushing other people to reach those heights.
• 48:31
  Organizations do a bad job of identifying them and rewarding them and nurturing them.
• 48:36
  So if we can create organizational structure that acknowledges people's contribution, not
• 48:43
  just to the bottom line, but to everybody else's performance, we can actually start to
• 48:48
  create an environment where those changes are more resilient.
• 48:56
  I love that.
• 48:57
  The KPI is it puts it in a completely different perspective if you're looking at it from a
• 49:01
  giver.
• 49:01
  And oftentimes these are the people that are propping up or assisting and becoming quite
• 49:07
  vital I think out of the organizations that I worked with.
• 49:09
  And people made me look so good And I wasn't when I had so many things going on and you
• 49:14
  think, wow.
• 49:15
  You always make me look so good.
• 49:16
  So I love that.
• 49:17
  Yeah.
• 49:18
  Love that.
• 49:18
  And these oftentimes like, sometimes people in IT that you need certain reports or or things
• 49:24
  fixed, then they would automatically do and they always followed through.
• 49:28
  But they're the ones that didn't want they were not gonna be the ones that wanted to be
• 49:32
  recognized in a meeting.
• 49:34
  But No.
• 49:34
  They a coffee or maybe something sip simple on their desk is all that they needed to really
• 49:41
  feel valued.
• 49:42
  When I talk about spotlighting, it's part of having people's best interests at heart.
• 49:46
  I was recently on a trip, went to a hotel, they had a breakfast buffet included.
• 49:51
  I'm legally blind.
• 49:53
  One of the servers came up and said, would you like me to just take you to the buffet and tell
• 49:56
  you what's there and dish up a plate for you?
• 49:59
  I said, that would be amazing.
• 50:01
  Because it was something out of the ordinary.
• 50:05
  She did that.
• 50:06
  And I made sure to go to the manager and say, that person was fantastic.
• 50:13
  Because so often, we just don't acknowledge those moments.
• 50:16
  And we run into people like that who are givers, who are kind and considerate and
• 50:22
  nurturing, and they often don't get the appreciation that we should give them.
• 50:27
  Absolutely.
• 50:29
  Well, Darrell, this has been an amazing conversation.
• 50:31
  I would say you are in the top 10 of my guests.
• 50:34
  You have delivered.
• 50:37
  I will write I will think of that definition further, but definitely you have given us so
• 50:42
  much to think about your wisdom around trust, not just at work, but just overall in general
• 50:50
  and
• 50:50
  Yeah.
• 50:51
  Thinking outside of myself.
• 50:52
  I think that's I often think about that, but sometimes we get stuck in our own little world.
• 50:57
  That whole element of what is success for you, whether it's your child or your coworker or
• 51:04
  your leader, you know, to understand it, that two way sharing, and where am I and what do I
• 51:10
  need to do so that we can get a little bit better, but to also have that two way talk
• 51:14
  becomes is something that I really will think that much more about.
• 51:18
  So, again, thank you so much for being here with us.
• 51:21
  Now for people wanting to connect with you and buy your book, tell them where what kinds of
• 51:28
  things you're doing and where they can get ahold of you, Daryl.
• 51:30
  So, the book's available anywhere you get online books.
• 51:34
  So, Amazon or Kindle or so it's an e book and it's an audio book.
• 51:39
  And I go through specifically details about how to pull these levers in the book.
• 51:44
  You can reach out to me at trust unlimited dot com.
• 51:47
  You can see all the blog posts that we have, which include articles and videos.
• 51:54
  They can hear me on the imperfect cafe, which is a podcast that we do, And they can email me
• 51:59
  if they're interested.
• 52:00
  Daryltrustunlimited dot com.
• 52:02
  That's d a r r y ltrustunlimited dot com.
• 52:07
  Fantastic.
• 52:08
  The imperfect the podcast is The imperfect cafe.
• 52:12
  Okay.
• 52:13
  I'm gonna have to follow you on the Imperfect Cafe.
• 52:17
  So what am I walking away with?
• 52:19
  I am walking away with recognizing that what I'm trying to impart with the return on
• 52:26
  relationship model is that we need to take responsibility for ourselves as leaders,
• 52:31
  because you're setting the tone and the context for what you're delivering with people that you
• 52:37
  deal with on an ongoing basis.
• 52:39
  Awareness is so simple, but not easy.
• 52:42
  Asking those difficult questions, like Daryl was saying, is what did I do well?
• 52:48
  And a lot of times we ask what we do well, but we don't ask what did I not do well and how did
• 52:54
  that stop us from building trust.
• 52:56
  I like that.
• 52:58
  And with leaders out there that are thinking about this, I want you to reflect, like Daryl
• 53:02
  said, is what is success?
• 53:04
  Not from your perspective alone.
• 53:06
  You to know your own.
• 53:08
  But what is it for each and every person that might report to you?
• 53:13
  And then do they know what success means to everybody that reports to them?
• 53:18
  And then starting that iterating effect so that you can test against those things that we said,
• 53:24
  the mission, vision, and what success is out there in in the world with your brand.
• 53:29
  Well, I'm launching a course on the ROR in September.
• 53:33
  It's a life coaching and course along with six modules of teaching.
• 53:39
  We have a couple of spots available.
• 53:40
  So if you are interested, please reach out to me at roxanne at roxanne derhodge dot com.
• 53:46
  Again, Daryl, thanks so much.
• 53:47
  And everyone, thanks for putting up with me yet again for another week, and hope to connect
• 53:53
  with you again soon next week.
• 53:55
  Thanks for tuning in to Authentic Living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive,
• 54:01
  healthy change.
• 54:02
  Roxanne is a keynote speaker, psychotherapist, and coach.
• 54:06
  To work with Roxanne, visit roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint.
• 54:12
  We'll see you next time on Authentic Living with Roxanne.