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Philanthropy & Leadership with Paul Putman · OD Learning Lab

• Dr. Kyle Znamenak: Welcome to the OD Learning Lab, a podcast exploring leadership, organization development, and adult learning. Through conversations with scholars, practitioners, emerging voices, and archival recordings from the field, we examine the ideas, experiences, theories, and practices that help people, teams, and organizations learn, grow, and change. Paul Putman: So last night, I don't know if either of you ever have the thing where you work during your dreams and you wake up in the morning and you have this like, I've put this thing together that I didn't have the night before. so last night my subconscious brain put together two of the theories, one from philanthropy and one from adult learning and development, because I was looking for the Planning table Cervera Wilson book, right? I know Kyle Znamenak: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Paul Putman: I still have this book somewhere. I don't know where it is, but it was so they talk about it's all of like the you know the democratic gathering around the table. There it is. I Kyle Znamenak: yeah. There it is. Working the planning table. Very nice, Anthony. Paul Putman: I don't know, I know where it was on my shelf. so anyways, thinking about that one and With philanthropy, there's a book. I got my chartered advisor and philanthropy certificate during the pandemic as my pandemic project, one of them. And that was talking the Fithians, it was brothers. It was Nathan and I forget his brother's name. The Fithians wrote a book called The Right Side of the Table, which I also could not locate, but I know I have. And they're talking about they use the table metaphor as well. and they're talking about fundraising. Is traditionally thought of as the fundraiser sits across the table from the donor and is asking, and it's very transactional. And what they were talking about is it's about bringing all of the people together around the table. So it's the donor and the fundraiser, but it's also their financial planner, their estate planning attorney, like whoever else. So it's very similar in terms of program planning, but it's very specifically philanthropy. And the right side of the table is when you are the the metaphor sitting on the same side as the donor. So you're not it's not transactional, you're not asking for something other than you're trying to see what their goals are, what they want to do, and then how it matches up with what your nonprofit organization does. so anyway, that's what I woke up thinking about. I'm like, huh, two table metaphors, they're very similar from different disciplines Kyle Znamenak: That's Paul Putman: coming together. So that's Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Well that's interesting you said that because, you know, I had a similar kind of pattern last night thinking about sort of our conversation today, and sort of what I was working through in my head was thinking about communities of practice. And what came into my head was Lave and Wanger, their nineteen ninety one article about communities of practice and thinking about sort of our experience with communities of practice. And I kept repeating it over and over and over to myself, thinking, Okay, when I get up I have to find this article. I have to find Lave and Wanger and Soon as I woke up I was like, Who who was that? Who was that? What was I? La la la what? So eventually I found it. But yeah, it's very similar. I was kind of working on sort of what research and theories I wanted to pull in and talk about for our conversation today. Paul Putman: I always thought of it in my brain as Lave and Wanger and you say Vave and I'm like, I have no idea how it's pronounced. That's just how it's like when you read a fiction book with like fantasy characters and you make up the pronunciation and then you hear it somewhere else and you're like, no, even close. Anthony Adkisson: Right. So I'll ask that, you know, audience when you listen to this, correct us. Tell us how do you pronounce it? Lave or leave? Paul Putman: Right. And it's Kyle Znamenak: I I w I will tell you Katherine Hansman Paul Putman: gene. Kyle Znamenak: or Kate Monahan's going to correct us somehow in an email one of these she'll they'll be like what but this is how you Paul Putman: Excellent. Kyle Znamenak: actually Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Kyle Znamenak: pronounce it. that's great. So it's it's it seems like Paul Putman: yeah, I don't remember. Kyle Znamenak: we're having like these subconscious we I mean we could do a whole episode about some of the things Paul Putman: Well Kyle Znamenak: that we the work that we do in sleep, which would be like totally interesting. Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Kyle Znamenak: to do that. Paul Putman: That would be interesting. Kyle, I think you're exactly right. In terms of when you first talked to me about this podcast, and I was thinking about my own practice with, you know, adult learning, adult development, and being in charge of a nonprofit, a lot of it is this subconscious, like it's part of it's part of just how I operate now. So it's not always a conscious decision around things, right? And I think that's the same for a lot of people that it's not. I don't stop and think, okay, what what theory am I going to apply to my work today? Right. It's just kind of this thing, it all weaves together and flows and I don't I think that's one of the fantastic things about adult learning and development is this kind of pervasive in that way. Anthony Adkisson: Yeah, yeah. Kyle Znamenak: Yeah, I I agree. Like so a lot of times and Anthony could s probably speak to this as well, and Paul too, 'cause we've we've all kind of taught, but when it comes to adult learning, a lot of the things that students are already doing, so masters level students, PhD level students, that may they may not know that there's a theory behind it, but they're they're already practicing adult learning theory. And it's just kind of teasing it out and saying, Okay, this is what actually is happening within practice, this is what's going with Andregoji, this is how I'm actually engaging adult learners and even they're like the developmental processes in adult learning or adult development, I think that there are a lot of those behind the scenes that students are actively and by students I mean practitioners, anyone, that that may not consciously be aware of the things that they're doing. So Paul Putman: Absolutely. I it makes me think of a student that I had. I used to do leadership development and and had a student who came to one of the sessions or was in class. I can't remember exactly, but she was probably we would call non-traditional, right? So not 23, older than that, and had some life experience. And she's like, I'm not a leader. And so I was talking to her a little bit, and it turns out she's like, Okay, so I run the church choir and I teach Sunday school and I'm in charge of my block club. Like she kept listing all these things, running a family and she's like, I'm not a leader. So we had a long conversation about actually you you you may be allowed to have this mantle if you would like to choose so. So it's that subconscious, Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Paul Putman: yeah. Anthony Adkisson: Yeah, I think that's one of the things I hear a lot and you know, from my own experience also in adult learning that, you know, as you begin reading the theories, reading the practice, you're like, that's what that's called. You now have a name for it Paul Putman: Yes. Anthony Adkisson: and you kinda have as I always say that aha moment that you're just always in constant motion of doing these things subconsciously. But then as you begin reading through the theories and learning, you're like, that's actually what I'm doing and I've had that experience with students so many times, so like right now I'm teaching ALD six five at Cleveland State University and it's sort of the learning theories, developmental theories. And always at the end of the semester students are like, wow, okay, now I understand and have a name to put to the practice of what I'm actually doing. And they have that aha moment at the end of every semester. So yeah. I think part of it what you both make me think about also is I think developmentally at each we're at different phases of our lives as we get older we have experiences and we sort of collect these experiences as we get older and sort of some experiences become very more familiar because we've had them before. And so it's just out of experience that we kind of subconsciously do things. We don't have to always stop and think about it, but we just subconsciously do it. Because we're like, well yeah, I know in the past when I've done that, I've made a mistake or it's not worked that way. But particularly working in nonprofits when I'm training or teaching, I always think about, you know, Well, don't even think about it, I just kinda subconsciously do certain things or put my curriculum or my plans together because I know all right it's gonna work this way or students are gonna have these particular questions. So I guess I say all that to say I think that there's just something about as we get older and the wisdom of age and things that we particularly do that we just kind of subconsciously kind of collect tools and resources to structure things a certain way. Paul Putman: Yeah. Like like training or rehearsing, right? If if if you play a sport at a certain point you're just like your hand just goes and catches the ball or or whatever and you're not really thinking about it necessarily. Anthony Adkisson: Right, exactly. Yep. So I want us to maybe move into it. Paul, tell us who you are. Tell us who you are. Paul Putman: Absolutely. Anthony Adkisson: You've talked a little bit about nonprofits, you've talked a little bit about, you know, philanthropy. Maybe just tell us a little bit and tell the audience a little bit about who you are. Paul Putman: Yep, absolutely. That's always such an interesting way to frame it. So for this conversation, I'm gonna go education because of course. so I my educational journey after K through twelve was Kent State University for undergraduate degree in English. I was there for five years, very involved at the university. And as I was getting ready to graduate, people are like, What do you want to do? I'm like, I don't know. And I found out that you could actually have a job working at a college or university. And my undergraduate itself thought that that would be the most amazing thing. So I found a master's degree program. It was educational psychology and guidance, but was the emphasis on higher education. So it was kind of an interesting mix of we we had some some counseling, some different theoretical things in there, but also the goal was to work at a college or university. And then I did that program at Eastern Illinois, went and worked at a university in Kansas for a while doing leadership development, but also doing Greek life, both fraternities and sororities, student government programming board, union activities, like all of these different things. And then after four years, followed my now husband to Cleveland. he got a job at Baldon Wallace. I tempted for a while and then got a job at Cleveland State University, doing Leadership development, service learning, LGBTQ student services, all those kind of developed over time, right? It started out as leadership and then it was leadership service, and then it was leadership in LGBT. Like it just kept adding. Did that for a decade. And while I was there, got the second master's that was a master's of arts and psychology in diversity management, which now we would probably call DEI, but back in the day it was diversity management. Which sounds very funny because it was to me, it was cutting edge at the time and now I'm like, that term is so passe. and then started work on the PhD program. And a lot of that was driven by everyone I saw who worked at a level above me had a PhD. I'm like, if I'm gonna advance in my career, I need that. But also I you both may relate to this. I was one of those nerdy kids that I always kinda wanted a PhD anyway. Like just kind of that that Kyle Znamenak: Yes. Paul Putman: nerdy was something I always kinda wanted to do. So did that. And that was in the urban education leadership and lifelong learning program at Cleveland State, which is ALD basically, adult learning and development. so that was kind of the academic career. I talked about working at CSU for about a decade. I was ABD and wrapping up my dissertation. I had been there for almost a decade and I realized I hadn't looked for a job in a decade, and things have changed over time. And at that point, the change was from paper to emailing resumes, right? So now it's all the totally different, but I I decided I'm like, I need to start very casually looking and ended up someone I found out about this job at the Cleveland Foundation, which is a community foundation that does philanthropic work in a geographic footprint. Found out about this job the day before the application was due. and it was due on my birthday. So I had the day Kyle Znamenak: Okay. nice. Paul Putman: off. So I threw together a cover letter and resume, just kind of mailed it off and didn't think about it. Because I'd only heard about philanthropy and about community foundation. I know it funded a lot of things that I cared about in terms of both arts and culture. But when, you know, I do volunteering and things like that, the foundation's name was on a lot of things around the community. Didn't think about it. It was for a program officer position. Ended up going through it was either three or four interviews before eventually landing the role of program officer. I was very naive at the time and didn't realize how competitive was. so feel very lucky to have worked there for seven years, seven and a half years as a program officer. So helping people connect to grant dollars. So I would be do lot of meeting with nonprofit organizations, help them connect to funding, and then communicate that to the board of directors, which made decisions about the funding. so did that work for a while, which was great. It was supposed to be a transition for at first it was three to five years and then we changed it to five to seven years. It's a tough position that requires a full year to even kind of get a feel for how it works and what it it looks like. and so I was hitting seven years. I had finished the PhD. I enjoyed my time. I figured no one's gonna look at time in philanthropy as a negative thing. and was ready to kind of look around and I was recruited internally for a donor relations officer. And when I was approached about this, I was, you know, I've told this story many times. I'm like, I'm not a fundraiser. I don't like asking for money. No one does type of thing. And then I learned that these were donors who had already made philanthropic commitments and it was just helping them connect with nonprofits. I'm like, that I can do. And Anthony Adkisson: Mm-hmm. Paul Putman: it was so much fun working with generations of families talking about their philanthropy and there's certainly a lot of adult learning and development there. talking with them about their philanthropy and then helping them match with nonprofits, especially nonprofits that they might not have known about. So it's one thing if they're like, I like art. I want to give the Cleveland Museum of art. But it's another thing if I'll never forget there was one time there was a son. I'm like, so what are you excited about? He's like, well I played soccer in college, but I'm also really excited about literacy. I'm like Let me tell you about this nonprofit called America Scores that does poetry and soccer. And he got so excited. Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Paul Putman: so that was fun. Did that for eight years. I was at the foundation, just under 15 years. And when I had my boss, the VP left, I realized I wasn't probably going further in the organization. had the moments I think many Folks have had where it's kind of you do that life reflection, and you're like, okay, do I like where I'm at? Do I want to do something else? people I work with were fantastic, but decided I had perhaps another career adventure in me. So again, started a very casual search. And one weekend I was online and came across president CEO of an organization called Tree Fund. And my brain just said, I like trees. So I clicked on the link and it was the tree research and education endowment fund. And I'm like, wait, it's trees and it's research and education and it's nonprofit, like, and it's philanthropy. I'm like, this this is my sweet spot. And I I I won't go through the whole story of that interview process, but I ended up getting the position. So we can talk about that later if if you want to go into that story. but I've been doing that now for just just barely over three years. So as the president and CEO of a small nonprofit that funds internationally, our work is to find, fund, support, and then d disseminate the findings of of research. specifically in our bora culture, so the study of trees and urban forestry, which is the study of trees in cities specifically. So I have a small team. There are three of us. We are geographically dispersed across across the United States. do a lot of the work virtually. The board gets together in person a couple times a year. And then we fund things across the country, but also some international grant making as well. So I am ultimately responsible for everything with the organization, which has been a whole new adventure in so many ways. And you know, we can certainly talk about that. but it's been a lot of stuff fun so far for the first three years. So that that's about me. That's that was probably a really long introduction that's gonna have to be edited down, but that's the story. Kyle Znamenak: No. No. That's I mean that's that yeah, so there's a lot, a lot of threads that I wanna revisit with what you were talking about. one thing that I I'm I'm trying to I'm I'm I'm debating if we should talk about how you and Anthony met, how we met, and then also I just wanna revisit a little bit of the higher education. component too because I know that a lot of the programs you were talking about, you actually started. Like it was from scratch. Like so with the graduate so with the GSA. so with yeah yeah. Paul Putman: those things. Okay. When you said programs, I thought you were talking about academic programs for a minute and I'm like I I was in Kyle Znamenak: no no no no. sorry, sorry. So like Paul Putman: early cohorts of DMP diversity management program, but I I I didn't start it. But yeah, okay. I see what you're saying. Yes. Kyle Znamenak: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think you're were your DMP th one or th four. Jeez. Yeah. Paul Putman: Four. Four. Kyle Znamenak: And I was twelve. Paul Putman: And how many were there? There were twenty. Kyle Znamenak: There's twenty something, yeah. And then unfortunately, with everything that happened with CSU at this point in time, there's no longer a program, to my knowledge. Yes. Paul Putman: It's it's no longer as far as I know, I agree it's no longer an academic program. It went to be kind of a continuing at workshoppy type of thing and then I don't know if that exists anymore. Kyle Znamenak: Yeah. So Paul Putman: That's a whole nother conversation. Kyle Znamenak: Yeah, exactly. That's a whole other yeah. so Paul Putman: Yeah. Kyle Znamenak: so Paul, how did you meet Anthony? Anthony, how did you meet Paul? Anthony Adkisson: Yeah, we actually had this conversation last week when we were talking. And, you know, it's very interesting because I I think, you know, I connect a lot of sort of how the three of us know each other to the idea of just community. And, you know, just community in the larger greater Cleveland community, but then also the LGBTQ community here within Cleveland. And just, you know, we were able to make some connections, but also just part of aging. I re forget some of the connections we we have. But I know that, you know. one of the areas of where Paul and I have commonality and know each other is through, you know, my former partner, John Halsall. And John Halsall was a student at Cleveland State University who I think was very involved in the GSA and some of the programs that Paul was over. And so I think, you know, when I met John in two thousand six, we were just talking about people that we knew and he knew Dr. Bruce Metapachi who was at Cleveland State and he knew Paul Putman, who was at Cleveland State. And so we just had some of those commonalities. I feel like there was probably somewhere else that we knew or cross paths. Yeah. Right. But I feel like it Paul Putman: Couldn't quite couldn't quite get it. Anthony Adkisson: was Paul was just like, yeah, Paul Puttman. I know guy, I know Paul. And we just Paul Putman: Yeah yeah. Anthony Adkisson: know several people in common. so that was, yeah, kinda how we met in can I place the first year? yeah, 2006, 7, somewhere whereabouts, yeah. Paul Putman: 20 years. Good gosh. Kyle Znamenak: Yes. Yeah. but you you were also in a PhD program, like in a sense, like you shared a class, community of practice class, is that correct? Anthony Adkisson: yeah, yeah. He was my professor for a while. Paul Putman: But that's but it was a community of practice. So we really kind of eschewed the whole so when I finished my PhD program, Dr. Catherine Monahan, who was my dissertation chair and advisor, invited me to co teach. It was I think it was was it was a seminar on adult learning and development is I think what's kind of Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Paul Putman: the general and was designed to be kind of more later in the program for PhD students. And we had done a lot of talk previously about communities of practice. And she introduced me to this idea of let's run this as a community of practice and actually have it be a thing. And so that's that's how that started. And I can't that must have been in the fall of twenty twelve. Anthony Adkisson: twelve, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it was a class, it was myself, it was Bridget Kreiner, Kari Kaufman, and yourself. And I think that was it. So it was just I think yeah, just Paul Putman: Yeah, there were five of us total. Anthony Adkisson: the five of us. And, you know, to your point, you know, Doctor Monaghan, she just kind of got rid of the whole kind of formal structure of a class and just sat us down one day at a coffee shop and said, Okay, you guys create sort of the curriculum and what is it that you want to do? And we just looked at her like she was crazy and said, Okay, no, it sounds like a great idea, but we need you to tell us what to do. But it was just a great experience. at that point I had just finished a lot of my core programs within the doctoral program. and myself, Kari and Bridget were at different points with in sort of our studies and sort of like a year apart from one another. And yeah, it was just a great experience and we got to know each other a little bit more and break bread together. And I think we just kind of talked about how earlier this was the start of, you know, like DoorDash and ordering food. It was kind of a new novel idea to be able to pick you know, your phone up and place an order and have it brought to you. So typically when we would meet for class, we would break bread together and have food delivered and yeah, just kind of learn from one another and that was sort of the start of our community of practice. Paul Putman: Yep. There was definitely a lot of ritual to it. and Anthony Adkisson: Yeah, mm-hmm. Yeah. Paul Putman: the other thing, the project that was chosen very early on was academic publishing. It was kind Kyle Znamenak: Mm. Paul Putman: of, you know, demystifying the process of how do you put together an article, submit an article, what does that look like from start to finish? And so that's kind of the project that was worked on, not just for that semester, but then it carried on. Anthony Adkisson: It carried on, yeah. Yep. So Kyle Znamenak: And you ended up with multiple articles out of that that class for my like at least two two or three. Anthony Adkisson: Well, it's like three at least two or Paul Putman: It Anthony Adkisson: three, yeah. Paul Putman: w well, collectively all together. But then we also had there were also some like Bridget and I did a chapter in an adjunct professor book, where we were Kyle Znamenak: Sweet. Paul Putman: talking about communities of practice as related to adj like so there were a couple I call them side quests. So different things that kind Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Paul Putman: of came out of that, yeah. Anthony Adkisson: So Kyle and Paul, how do you know one another? Paul Putman: So this one I remember distinctly. I don't know, Kyle, if you remember this. Distinct. You're like, Kyle Znamenak: Maybe I Paul Putman: maybe. So Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Paul Putman: I was at Cleveland State University. You were an undergraduate at Baldon Wallace. I don't know if our paths had crossed beforehand, but I very distinctly remember you coming in to interview for graduate assistantship. And as Kyle Znamenak: Yes. Paul Putman: part of this, here you were a senior at Baldon Wallace, and you were so clear in This is my pathway to a PhD. And you had already done and public, like you had already done some research as an undergrad, which was tremendously impressive. And I was, I just remember you were so I would call it ambitious in all the right ways. Like you had this vision for yourself, and you're like, This is what like you've always carried yourself as an academic for as long as I've known you. so I have that very distinct, and then we had a really great conversation about LGBTQ student services and possibilities and all of that type of thing and ended up working together. I th this is this is where I get fuzzy in the Kyle Znamenak: Mm-hmm. Paul Putman: cause I left, I think, during the time you were there, right? Kyle Znamenak: So yeah, I think it was like my first semester, because I started I was also within the diversity management program. Paul Putman: Yes. Kyle Znamenak: So that was the master's program that I applied for. and then I think it was like Lisa Gainer, who was the director of the program at the time, referred me to you to to apply for the position. You were looking for two positions, a for the Center for Leadership and Service. and so you're looking for one that oversaw service. So working and doing large no yeah. Paul Putman: Okay. Okay. So it wasn't LGBT such. It was leadership and service. Okay. Kyle Znamenak: Leadership and service. Yeah. And so Paul Putman: Okay. Kyle Znamenak: I ended up applying for the service position, but then I ended up getting blurred like everything got blurred together. Because we we were helping each other. So there's the service and the leadership GAs. Yeah. Paul Putman: Okay. See, I don't remember completely. And but so did when what year was that? Kyle Znamenak: Oof. I don't I would have to look back, like when I started the diversity management program. But it was like Paul Putman: Okay. Kyle Znamenak: right when you left for the Cleveland Foundation. Yeah. Paul Putman: the university to go to Cleveland Foundation, which was and I so I was was I teaching in the diversity management program at that time or was that before Kyle Znamenak: So I you were n I don't believe you were you didn't teach any of the courses that I was involved with, but you were doing Myers Briggs activities at that time. Paul Putman: Okay. Yep. I I was qualified for Myers Briggs in many, many years ago, the early aughts, I think. 40 hours of education and an exam for that at the time. so I developed a couple activities that I did, yes, for a lot of a lot of groups and organizations. Still to still do that. Just was training a group of public service fellows a couple weeks ago with some different activities related to MBTI. Interesting. Okay. Kyle Znamenak: Great. Yeah. Yeah. So Center for Paul Putman: We we crossed paths, but then it wasn't we didn't work together for a long time in depth. Kyle Znamenak: No, but what you did and I and I think you did a really good job at it is you would check in through his like meetings and things around those lines in order so that there was a transition, so that it wasn't like, Hey Kyle, take over the the Center for Leadership and Service under a new leadership. Because they didn't 'cause higher education, as we know, unfortunately, sometimes they don't hire positions. and so it ended up getting taken over by the associate dean or the Assistant Dean. Paul Putman: inter like f temporarily and then I I heard it was divided into three different jobs. Kyle Znamenak: Yep. Yep. So but that's how we met. but I learned a lot through the leadership and service program. And I think that was one of the programs did you did you start that or was it at Cleveland State already? Paul Putman: The this is a great question. I was hired specifically for leadership development. And how cool for that to be a full time job, right? To do leadership development for students. And there was a the reason that there was a position is there was a mandatory program called LeaderQuest. And if students had received stipend from the university for their roles, so some of them had like a tuition stipend, something like that for if they were, you know. in charge of student government or student publications or the radio station. They had this requirement to go through this thing called LeaderQuest, which was supposed to be leadership development training. Wasn't really popular when I got there. There were a lot of bumps with people having, you know, resistance to leadership education. And so we changed it up and morphed it over time and responding to the needs of the student adult learners. But there was there was a program of some kind there, but it looked very, very different by the time I left. Kyle Znamenak: I I always like to explore how did you lean into that resistance? Like how did you address it? and then how did you develop the program from that? Paul Putman: Mm-hmm. So, you know, the things that stick out in my mind now are some either conversations or there was an article that was written about it that was very mean spirited. And so some of the memories are this like hurt, this feeling of hurt. Like I'm I'm as a professional, I have this degree and experience, and I'm here to try to help. And being personally attacked for things did not feel good. but then I transitioned to students it like I'm the person, but students aren't reacting to the person. They're reacting to the program and to the requirements. And they didn't see it as useful and as something that they had to do versus get to do. So it very quickly morphed into a, all right, how are we going to change this? And again, that adult learning and development, it's like, okay, let's sit down with the students who are not happy about things. And say, okay, what we we need to have this program. There needs to be some type of training and development. I think that there are a lot of things that could be useful, but what what would you like to see? How would you like this to be structured? What kinds of things would you like to learn about? And you know, it was a it was a process, and not all students hopped on board right away with it, but a lot of students really connected to that to say, okay, we we would like to learn more about. fill in the blank. And then we developed a program over time that was very flexible. So we had, it was almost like a CEU type of program where, you know, an hour long session was one point. And for some students, they had to have a requirement of getting a certain number of points for their positions, but they could choose what they wanted to do. Right. So if they didn't want to learn about time management, they did not have to learn about time management. They could choose something else. which I think started working pretty well. For most of the students. And then building upon that, we developed a certification program where students who were or were not in the LeaderQuest required program could earn a it was not an academic certificate, it was just a leadership certificate. as a student leader and then we added in service learning components to that over time. And from there we then had an advanced certification. So students started to learn how to facilitate the workshops themselves. And so we were teaching a train the trainer type of thing. and it was working I think pretty well, you know, over time. It just got Kyle Znamenak: Reading. Yeah. Paul Putman: to be it was always more and more which Kyle Znamenak: Mm-hmm. Paul Putman: is something You both know in higher education, higher education likes to do that where they they're like, this is working, let's give you this additional thing. Okay, that's working, let's give you this third thing and then eventually it's it's untenable. That was my experience anyway. Anthony Adkisson: And you know, I I find that very interesting. And I'm just wondering, like, in hindsight, do you feel like you were able to accomplish a lot of what you really wanted to originally set out to do in the leadership course, but in a different way by having it be more participatory and help allowing them to sort of define what their learning goals were, that really at the end you really accomplished a lot of what you wanted to do, but it just became something where the students had more say in sort of what they were learning and you really begin seeing sort of adult learning principles in action and in play because you kinda gave it over to them to kind of pick and choose, but eventually Paul Putman: Yeah. Anthony Adkisson: it got to where you wanted to go. Paul Putman: That's a that's an interesting question because I don't think I came into it with a here's what I want them to learn, here's what I want it to be. I wanted it to be a a useful program and something that could could be helpful. but I didn't I didn't have a like a set curriculum per Anthony Adkisson: Okay. Paul Putman: se, other than you know, I had had experience, right? So I had been a student leader myself in graduate school, I worked with a lot of things. I had done a lot of national conferences and things like that. But it wasn't, and maybe that's part of what was was helpful is that I didn't come in with a, I'm going to implement X program. It's a how can we grow it? And that's even to this day, that's one of my key things is I'm like, okay, every year just a little bit better. So every year it's looking at things, figuring out, okay, how can you make it a little bit better, a little bit more useful, a little bit more for me with students? It was also how can they take on more of the program themselves? So Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Paul Putman: part of my success by the end was that there were student leaders who were doing the training for other student leaders and graduate assistants. Kyle, as you know, were pretty much running the program in so many ways that. When I wasn't there it it didn't matter. so it's kind of that, yeah, helping them I don't know, be them best selves. I I I don't know what the the cliche is here. Kyle Znamenak: Mm-hmm. Anthony Adkisson: Yeah, I it just it makes me also think about the article that we wrote together as part of our community of practice, you know, waiting for the expert to arrive. And just sort of, you know, how to instill those levels of qualities within people to see themselves as leaders, to see themselves as the experts, and see themselves as being able to take on those responsibilities. So you talked about training the trainer and just thinking about sort of our own experience within our community of practice, wanting to become more knowledgeable of, you know, academic writing, but then also having to pair ourselves up with, you know, another expert within the field and gain that experience and knowledge. So yeah, maybe t just wondering, you know, maybe talk about that in terms of, you know, the work that we did in the community of practice and the article and Paul Putman: Yes. Anthony Adkisson: how that came and how that influenced your work and yeah. Paul Putman: Absolutely. and and look below for a link to the article for those who are watching this online. I'm I'm sure we can make that magic happen. Anthony Adkisson: Right. Kyle Znamenak: Indeed. Paul Putman: it wa that was it was really I I don't know if transformational is the exact right word if we get into that whole side thing. But so for those who have not yet read the article, it's really a fascinating article, you should read it. but it we came in with this concept of what is an academic or what is an expert in the field of academia and what does it mean to be an academic or an expert? And none of us saw ourselves as experts. And so that's where kind of the this idea for community practice came is is what does it mean to be a scholar? That's what it was scholar, not academic, but what does it mean to be a scholar? and we had this image I I will speak for myself, this image, right? You know, a scholar is someone who has been working in the field for many, many, many years with white hair and tons of books that they have done and dozens of publications and all of this type of thing. And you weren't a scholar until you were, you know, had achieved whatever it was, there was always something beyond, you know, at least where I was at the time. And so having this conversation about things. And that's what the article explored, which was really helpful. I I know for myself and thinking myself like okay, I can consider myself a scholar. Yeah, I'll pause there. Kyle Znamenak: And that and that article actually has led to so at my work at the University of Idaho, we're doing a research apprenticeship course and we're specifically looking at how does the course develop students as scholars and if if at all and so there might be some reference to your article within our work. and then Paul Putman: Yeah. No, love that. Kyle Znamenak: we're also doing some peer review for Triple A C E and we're doing research on that th using an autoethnography, very similar approach of what you did. We might have so your article is what really kind of pushed some of my scholarship forward because of everything that you revealed, all the finding like your findings, but also just being able to talk to you about like what was your process? What did you do? the kind of the The stuff that you don't necessarily hear when it comes to just like on the well not hear, but see on the paper. Paul Putman: Yeah, insights before. And it continues because as you're talking, I'm like, ooh, I want to hear more about this research program that you're doing because we are at my nonprofit, we're working on securing funding for a graduate fellowship. And one of the things that we're really interested in is having, you know, the graduate student who is selected for the the research fellowship to be paired with someone to have kind of that research mentorship and help connect them in. and we've done that with our scholarship program where we have this year we did nine five thousand dollar scholarships, which is a pretty nice amount of money for folks studying our boriculture, urban forestry, utility vegetation management, whatever it might be. And as part of that, they are paired up with practitioners to have kind of this relationship. So I I'm happy that you can learn from us, but also I'm like, ooh, I'm excited to learn what you're doing in Idaho as well. Kyle Znamenak: Definitely. And I and I feel like I don't I don't want to take over the podcast here. So what what I'll do is I have some materials I'll send your way. I have a specifically before the class starts, I have students take a brief survey about knowledge skills and awareness when it comes to research. Paul Putman: Yeah. Kyle Znamenak: and so in what I'll what I usually do is use that and then that informs the class and the information that I provide to them and then so the topics. But also what it does is for those research projects that they're intentional of what they want out of those projects when it comes to their own skills or knowledge development. So I'll send you that. it's like this little grid and it kind of walks through knowledge, skills, and awareness and how they want to develop. Paul Putman: Did create this? Kyle Znamenak: So it was created through our program. So Laura Holyoke, so she's the department chair. She created that, and then I've been adding on to it. So for example, AI awareness, like when it comes to research, hot topic right now, but I think it's it's not going away. And so that's something that I've added to the skills grid and the knowledge and Anthony Adkisson: Mm. Kyle Znamenak: awareness. but also the the approach that I'm taking when it comes to like surveying the students. it's a little bit unique when it comes to it, but it w I can't take ownership of it. Laura Julio created that. Paul Putman: No, well but it's it seems like okay. So we'll give her full credit for developing, but you've also kind of collaborated and expanded it. And I I will be really curious to see how I work with a lot of them hardcore scientists in terms of, you know, physical sciences, Kyle Znamenak: Mm-hmm. Paul Putman: which is not what I was brought up in, so to speak. So be curious about how how what the reactions are. are to this and how they think about it because they're a lot of them are doing, you know, research in a laboratory and or in the field. So it's a very different I think in a lot of ways it's a very different concrete, different type of science and approach. Anthony Adkisson: Yeah, you know, and Kyle, I know you and I have talked about this before, but I just had this awareness and I I'd love to see this also because I think what it makes me think about is within workforce, we have competency models. And so within workforce, if you are and I'm thinking about construction because it's some work that I'm working on right now for a local organization is helping them build a construction career pathway. But, you know, the Department of Labor has certain competency models and they have a triangle where you begin at certain, you know, the kind of base level of what's expected within a career path. But you're sort of building up that competency level. And so it just makes me think about that. And I'll have to share that with you and kind of love to crosswalk those and see sort of the similarities. But when you think about different career fields and career pathways as a person, particularly say if a person's an apprentice within construction, there are expectations in terms of competency that they're working their way up into. And then there's all those levels of things that they're expected to do. And it sounds very similar. So I would love to, yeah, look at that and talk about that and see. Paul Putman: Yeah. Tracker Anthony Adkisson: Larve is. Paul Putman: industry has the same thing, right? I I I mean, right? So there are things that you as you grow through the industry as well. Yeah. Kyle Znamenak: That's yeah. With the apprenticeship course, we have students start off working with faculty as well as senior students. And by senior students I mean students that are further in the PhD program. Paul Putman: Mm-hmm. Kyle Znamenak: and so they start off and they might just like help with the literature review or they might do some like minor, kind of smaller project things. but once they Paul Putman: Mm-hmm. Kyle Znamenak: take their towards their last semester within their coursework. They're expected to lead a project. And so that's the that's just like you were saying, the competency model in which they're they're working their way up and now they can actually lead research and they're leading a team through the apprenticeship. So it's pretty cool. Anthony Adkisson: I think that's so important now also as we know that we're moving more towards online courses and online programs where students aren't necessarily together in a space like we once used to be. And so having sort of that level of model in, you know, senior students who you can sort of go to as a mentor to kind of talk to and have that, I think is really important because I just think about the level of work that we did within the cohorts for Cleveland State. you know, we were able to meet in person, talk to one another and have sort of these offside conversations and those relationships that were very important. So being able to kind of, you know, scaffold that for students in a way so that they have a model and can connect to someone virtually, I think is really important. Paul Putman: And I also say it depends on the field, right? So I'm working with folks in the tree care industry. Tree care is not virtual. Right? I mean, it's you can you can read a manual, you can learn some things through a book or through online, but the actual practice of tree care, you have to be outside with the tree, with the equipment, and there is a person who is there. training you, right? And helping you Kyle Znamenak: huh. Paul Putman: and working alongside you. So it seems in some ways that's a much more, I guess, traditional is the maybe the way of thinking about it, and that it's not computer mediated hardly at all. which means it's it's appealing, right? So if if literacy is the thing, if you know, if dyslexia are all sort, you there's all sorts of different things that this type of work can be very appealing to folks who want to be outside. but it it is very You have to look at the tree, you have to see, you know, what the if if you're pruning the tree, what the pattern of growth is, make decisions about what where the cuts are made, how the cuts are made, what the care prescription is going to be for it. and that all has to be all has to be outside. Kyle Znamenak: So this is a point where I wanna like we could transition in a few ways here. so you have a background in nonprofit and I wanna Paul Putman: Yep. Kyle Znamenak: really I wanna learn more about nonprofit and your experience in nonprofit and how you believe or it aligns or doesn't align with adult learning. Because you have a also a background in higher education, but how all these experiences aligned that kind of pushed you towards One, the position you're currently in, but also shifting into the non profit space. Paul Putman: And I think it's not uncommon for for folks in adult learning and development to have many hats or many different types of experience that aren't always a linear career, you know, procession, so to speak. But nonprofit's always been a theme of mine, right? So I was lucky in that at an early age I was able to I was connected into libraries, which are our nonprofit organizations. And my mother brought me along as a volunteer. she volunteered with a center for the blind and so I got to go along with her as a child and I was helping people with bingo like whatever it was, small types of stuff, but that that sense of service and giving back is something that been doing for a long time. you know, things and certainly working at in educational institutions, most of which are nonprofit, although not all of them. Lots of libraries. I worked with the Cleveland International Film Festival, as you both know, for almost two decades. and that was, you know, a nonprofit working with a lot of people. So nonprofit sector is an interesting one, and it's different in different countries. so we have to talk a little bit about the the US version of nonprofit organizations. And there's a lot of work that's been written about, you know, when you talk about sectors, you have the private sectors, which are corporations, and you've got public sector is the government and then the third sector is nonprofit organizations and there's a lot of conversation about you know how much should government be doing versus how much we should a nonprofit be doing. At its core nonprofit in the US is an IRS distinction that basically means we are not here to make money. So we are we do not have shareholders or stock. The organizations exist to serve a mission. And while they're allowed to earn money, that's not the purpose of it. We're not here to give you know returns to investors. And the nonprofit sector has a lot of different subsectors. So we talked about, you know, it could be education or arts and cultures or religious organizations, environmental organizations, all sorts of different subsectors. But the common theme is that we have missions and we're connected to the mission. we're Normally governed by a board of directors. In the corporate sector, a lot of those can be compensated positions in the nonprofit sector. Those are largely volunteer positions. So we have volunteers who donate their time to help lead the vision for a nonprofit organization. And then employees with nonprofits can have all sorts of different roles. As you both know, it can be all sorts of things, which you know, so much adult learning and development in there in terms of. you know, program management or working with volunteers or leadership positions or whatever it might be. so one of the things that I like about nonprofit organizations is I have a keen affinity for mission over dollars. when I was doing some temp work in between things when I first moved to Cleveland, I I love I gave myself permission to explore. I'm like, what would it be like to work in a law office? I attempted a law office for a while. And what would it be like to work in? And I worked for a large corporation. that one of the things they produced literally was sprockets. And I was doing inventory control work where I was reaching out to different offices around the country and reconciling inventory numbers, where you know, the headquarters said, We think you have this many sprockets, and they'd be No, we have this many sprockets. And I would go home at the end of the day and Eric would be like, So how was your day? I'm like, I saved the company a hundred and fifty thousand dollars today and I'm dying a little bit inside because Kyle Znamenak: Mm-hmm. Paul Putman: it didn't have any meaning for me. So for me, nonprofits, having that mission of making the world a better place of helping people of all those types of things, that's a big part of what drives my participation in the sector. Let me let me pause my my talking for is that do you have a follow up thought? I s I see your Anthony Adkisson: I guess my th my only follow up thought that I have is as you talk about sprockets, I just feel like we need to have spacing sprockets or something from the Jetsons go across the screen 'cause that's Kyle Znamenak: indeed. Anthony Adkisson: that's where my mind went the cartoon from those Paul Putman: I I did call the headquarters basely sprockets when I would go there. and it was Kyle Znamenak: Lovely. Paul Putman: it was a great experience. I'm not like not saying nothing wrong against that the company at all. Great organization, a lot of amazing art in the building. Like it was a lot of cool things. See, Anthony Adkisson: The one on Euclid Avenue? Paul Putman: I I don't know. Should I out this this organization? Yes, indeed it is. Anthony Adkisson: Okay, yeah. Paul Putman: but again, great company. Sprockets help make the world go Anthony Adkisson: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Paul Putman: literally, right? So all good things. just wasn't Anthony Adkisson: Well, the entire thing, yeah. Paul Putman: for me the the paycheck is important and you need to have a paycheck, but it's not the primary reason why I'm doing things. Not that you can't make money in a nonprofit for those who are listening to this podcast. You can Kyle Znamenak: It's also true. Paul Putman: absolutely make a fine living as a nonprofit. You can work in a nonprofit and get paid pennies. but you can also be at a nonprofit and make a a fine living. So just because it says nonprofit doesn't mean You're not allowed to have a salary or make a living wage. Kyle Znamenak: So how does your your work at the Cleveland Foundation? So you talked about some of some of the donor relations. and so you're you you you you found out that you know you don't necessarily want to work for this whole corporate sector making sprockets. And then went to Cleveland State, then went to the Cleveland Foundation. Tell me a little bit more about some of your background in the Cleveland Foundation. Anything that kind of like stood out to you, things that you would want to share about your experience there and how it may relate to adult leaning, leadership, or organization development. Paul Putman: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I mean, there's so community foundations are privileged places because they're organizations that have a lot of money and their mission is to put money out into the community, into the nonprofit sector to help make things better. And Cleveland, Ohio is lucky in that we have the first community foundation in the world was invented in Cleveland by a financial advisor for Rockefeller, Fred Goff and and his wife had a lot to do with this as well. but developed this concept of he had seen a lot of millionaires leave their money to things that were important at the time, like horse troughs on Euclid Avenue. And he saw, you know, over time that became not needed. So his thought and his wife, they were thinking, they're like, Well, what if people left their money to kind of a community good? So for a foundation to benefit the entire community. and to have it be invested so that the money spent are the earnings on the investments and that over time boards of directors and different folks will direct the money as community needs change. So the needs of, you know, nineteen fourteen might be very different than the needs of twenty fourteen. or they might be very similar in terms of in Cleveland and you know, the teens and twenties education was a challenge, still is. But there was a lot of money in Cleveland at that time, right? So we had Rockefeller and a lot of other wealthy industrialists. They left a lot of money. The foundation is now worth a little bit over $4 billion, I believe, last I looked at it, which is meaning that you can over a million dollars a year is going back into the nonprofit community. For a city the current size of Cleveland, once the sixth largest city in the country, it's really amazing that we have this wealth of support for the nonprofit sector. So My first role at Cleveland Foundation was program officer. And so I was between the nonprofits who were looking for money and the board of directors of the foundation that was making final decisions about where the money needs to go. And there's certainly a lot of, you know, nuts and bolts of the process. So I was doing a lot of education work in terms of working with the nonprofit about, you know, here are the logistics of how you apply for money, but also here are some of the strategies and not, you know, I was never, I wasn't in the position, I wasn't giving out the money, but I wanted them to be successful and was helping to navigate to say, okay, let's think about here's what, you know, hot topics are, here's approaches to things. We do a lot of work with a lot of meetings with nonprofits and and their staff and their boards about what does philanthropy look like, what people might be looking for, how to navigate those processes. And in that role, I also had a couple things that were meaningful and one that I wanted to talk a little bit about, and you can edit this out if you would like. an organization called the Refugee Services Collaboration. And I was first introduced to, I mean, I had this kind of vague sense of refugees in our community, but nothing other than a vague sense of things. And As a program officer, I was assigned to work with an organization serving Bhutanese refugees. And as part of that, I did some site visits. So went out into the community and learned more about what the organization did, the people that it served. And my brain was kind of like blown really, really quickly when I thought about, you know, a lot of these folks were living in a refugee camp, like literal ref like huts and and dirt and that type of thing their whole lives. And then they were put on an airplane. And my mind, I'm like, how do you can't even imagine as a human experience? How do you go from that, you know, living in a hut to an airplane and then landing in Cleveland, Ohio, maybe in the winter, right? Where they're suddenly you're like dealing with cold and snow and you've never had this experience, whole new culture, whole new language. And and you're coming, you know, as a refugee, you're leaving your home not for some fun reason, right? You're leaving your home out of a ton, it's war or trauma, whatever it is. So these organizations are doing absolutely incredible work of helping people transition into the greater Cleveland community. So I was learning about this. And from the organization, I got connected in gradually to there were 13 refugee serving organizations that had formed a refugee services collaborative. And they were looking for money to support a neutral facilitator to have that collaborative. So this is where some of the adult learning came into play pretty concretely for me, in that I was walking into a space where I knew some people and I knew a little bit, but just enough to be dangerous and was very clear and going in with a sense of not knowing, talking to them about what they need. So I went to one of the meetings and listened, right? Just to to learn more. And it was really cool in that there were things that were very concrete from Someone saying, you know, I have this family that just came in and we need winter coats and gloves and things like that. And someone saw someone else is like, we just got a really large donation that we don't need right now. So there was a very concrete working together, but there was also a concrete, you know, there's a sense among some folks in Cleveland that refugees are taking jobs. So how can we what can we do to change this perception, which is not true? And let's develop an economic, you know, study to actually investigate this. So all these things were happening and they were looking for support. And so I I listened in and being in a foundation is a position of power. And so I was trying to be very aware of that. Went back. They were able to get a grant and they invited me, you know, you know, come to another meeting or something like that. And I very purposefully didn't want to do that because I didn't want to impose my thoughts onto their process or the foundation's positional power, my positional power. into the process and I'm not sure if the collaborative is still going, but it went on for a long time. And I think a lot of that is that it was a community of practice in so many ways. And then it was leaders from these organizations coming together, identifying common challenges and then working through those challenges together. It's a pretty cool thing. Kyle Znamenak: So ultimately they were funded by the the Cleveland Foundation. So like at at Paul Putman: They were. They received a couple of and they were we would call them modest grants. I you know it was thirty thousand dollars or something like that. So it wasn't, you know, it wasn't millions of dollars of grants that were going to, you know, pay for all the the solutions. But yeah, they received a number of grants and it was their work improved significantly. J and it wasn't a ton from the foundation's perspective. If you're giving out $120 million a year, thirty thousand dollars is not a ton of money. But super meaningful to a large group of organizations serving a really vulnerable population, but really critical to the community. Kyle Znamenak: So I know I think there was an earlier conversation. You probably don't recall this. This is when I was started. 'Cause it was like a a meaningful conversation when it came because I was like starting as the GA in leadership and service, but I remember when you were talking about going into the that position at the Cleveland Foundation about how you had to navigate not competing priorities, but that there are certain programs that are out there or organizations that are doing the same thing and that you were going in there and you were going to s see ways or try to figure out ways or bringing people to the table of bridging things so that you're not pulling from multiple Paul Putman: Yes. Kyle Znamenak: funds. You're pulling from one fund and they're working together. Can you talk a little bit about that? Did that actually come come to the f happen for ya or Paul Putman: The o okay. So I I'll talk a little bit and see if I get to an answer. And if not, have me circle Kyle Znamenak: it's okay. It's yeah and it Paul Putman: back around. so one of the things at the time, the work that I was doing, it was cross-sector. And by that, within the nonprofit community, I was working with refugee-serving organizations, I was working with organizations focused on nursing, some arts and culture, some education, like all sorts of different things. And one theory. Is that you know it's better if you just work with say education organizations, because then you can help connect them directly with the work that people are doing. But with the diverse set of organizations that I had, I was able to help connect nonprofit organizations that would never be connected otherwise, probably. Right. so you know, it might be an environmental focus organization that was trying to do something like, that's really a lot like what this theater is doing. so we're some interesting conversations that way. As a community foundation, neutral convener is one of the roles at the time that we would talk about. So there would be times where we would pull together organizations to kind of say, okay, here's you're all kind of in the same space. How can we what can we do? How can we make it better? And so refugee services collaboration was a success. and there was a one that didn't work as well was a mentoring kind of collaboration. So we had convened I it was a room full of like a hundred people with mentoring organizations. So you think, you know, like a Big Brothers, Big Sisters, you know, is kind of a more well-known one. A lot of mentoring organizations that, you know, operating out of church basements and things like that. so the goal was how can we make sure that everyone's aware of, you know, best practices and mentoring and some of the theories and doing some of the education that was out there that not everyone had access to. But there was also a lot of talk around what are the transition points. So if someone is in a mentoring program from grades six through eight, and then they go to high school and there's a high school mentoring program, how can how can these programs work together to help better serve the student or the child? And the so the goal was to bring things together. It wasn't necessarily to say you organizations have to merge into one, but to try to be more effective. And that one wasn't successful in my estimation because the funders were too involved with it Kyle Znamenak: Mm-hmm. Paul Putman: and you know didn't let it emerge on its own and then after a while it it just kind of stopped. but there were you know if you look around town there are organizations where there are similar missions that have come together over time to to save money, to be more efficient, to better serve their missions and and the people that they serve. But it's not something that you can force. It's so what we could do is we we could bring people to the table. We could have conversations. We could be that neutral space to have those conversations. And there were lots of those over the years. Kyle Znamenak: I'm it makes me think like so one of the things that I do within my program planning class is I interviewed Johnny Woo, who did the Cleveland Asian Festival. Paul Putman: Mm-hmm. Kyle Znamenak: And one of the things that the Cleveland Asian Fet Festival serendipitously did was they organized the festival and they had to bring in multiple stakeholders from the community, specifically within these Asian nonprofits, it ended up creating this bridge across all these Asian nonprofits. To unite around the Cleveland Foundation, not the Cleveland, sorry, Cleveland Asian Festival. but what that also did is it created a community so like when things would be challenged like things that would come up within Asia Town or in the St. Clair Superior neighborhood where Asia Town's located and all these nonprofits, they all can organize. And I I I think it's like a really effective program. It came as a festival, but then it became something that They organize and they can also pool together almost like the community is a practice, right? So where you're you come together as community practice and then you're like, Okay, we're gonna create these little what would you side quests, right? So you also had these side Paul Putman: Yeah. Kyle Znamenak: quests that are happening within the Asian community because of the Cleveland Asian Festival. So it's great. Paul Putman: It it's really cool. It there's something really powerful in bringing people together in adult learning and development is a lot of that. It's helping facilitate people coming together to to learn, but also to to make their lives and the lives of others better. And that I that's also a lot of the fun with the nonprofit, right? So I'm working within several groups within tree care. So there's the tree care industry, which is, you know. corporations and folks from the industry side of things. There's also the International Society of Arboriculture, which is working on research and education and a lot with individual arborists and bringing those and other industry organizations together and having conversations about, you know, who's doing what, how can we work together more effectively, has been really rewarding in the past couple of years. you know, one example is that Just a couple of weeks ago we announced a new research grant with the International Society of Arboriculture, which is one of our parent organizations from 1976. And it's recognizing that part of their mission is to fund research that advances the practice of our boraculture. But part of what we do as a nonprofit is administer these grant programs. And so it's this win-win of it's more money for research, which everyone loves, but we are winning because we're administering it and we get a you know a small administrative fee. I shouldn't say small administrative fee, we get a very nice administrative fee for doing the facilitation of the grant making process. And their team doesn't have to do that administration. They don't have to invest in that software or that type of exp specific expertise. So it's a sample of like we were saying with the Asian organizations, it's people doing their own mission, but then also kind of working together to say, okay, what group of people, subgroup of people, or how can we finesse things to make it smoother, easier, better? Anthony Adkisson: Mm-hmm. No. so I want to be mindful of your time and I think we are like at an hour right now. So, Paul Putman: Car. Anthony Adkisson: you know, in closing, you know, I think one of the things that, you know, Kyle and I are trying to do with this podcast is do something very similar in terms of bringing adult learning, organizational development, and leadership to a broader audience and both, you know, scholarship, academics, but also practitioners. and really helping people think about sort of you know adult learning and organizational development leadership in a different way but those who might not necessarily as we say always have access to the big theoretical books and things or academic literature to bring you know this knowledge to them through this podcast. So I'm just wondering, you know, do you have any final thoughts or final words that you might want to share with listeners around leadership, nonprofits, philanthropy or just sort of, you know, your pathway, you know, that you've kind of carved out. Within each of these sectors. Just any final thoughts that you might want to share? Paul Putman: That's that's such a a a very direct question, but such an open-ended, like that could be anything. So so thank you for for that. I really liked what you were saying about you you don't have to have read all these giant textbooks or all the journal articles or you know, all of this to do adult education. It it can be, you know, the practice that you have. The the one that's coming to mind is You know, in the diversity management program, we talked a lot about trusting the process, which is something that I I think applies to the work that people are doing in terms of if you're working with a nonprofit or not. If you're in a position of leadership, it's everything is a process and a journey, and there'll be ups and downs, and you learn along the way, and you know, you you gather a good group of people around you, whether that's a board of directors or staff or even friends, colleagues, coaches, whatever it might be, when you work collaboratively together, things turn out better. I I think that's the that's my message at this point in time and in terms of, you know, especially with with leadership, trusting what you know and trusting yourself to make good decisions, but also surrounding yourself with good people to bounce ideas off of and to act collaboratively with. Anthony Adkisson: No, I love it 'cause that's what this is, is us collaborating and sharing thoughts and all that. So yeah, we appreciate you and appreciate your time and yeah, thank you. Dr. Kyle Znamenak: Thank you for joining us in the OD Learning Lab. If you have any questions, feedback, or are interested in being a guest on the show, please contact us at odlearninglab at gmail.com. Until next time, keep leading, keep learning, and we'll see you back in the lab.