Latest / The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee / How To Talk About Pregnancy Loss With Care a deep discussion with Sam Payne from Pink Elephants

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How To Talk About Pregnancy Loss With Care a deep discussion with Sam Payne from Pink Elephants · The Home of Fertility with Liz Walton & Helen Zee

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the Home of Fertility, a space for real conversation and expert insights about fertility, healing, and creating family.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Alice Watson.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Helen Z.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: We are two mums who've walked this path and are passionate about supporting you on your journey, emotionally, physically, and spiritually.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about it all.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: Fertility treatment, holistic support, relationships, mindset, and the emotional highs and lots.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes the missing piece lies in someone else's story, in the quiet wisdom of the body, or in a breakthrough that's finally made for you.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: We are so glad you are here.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Let's dive in.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: Hello, hello.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: And good morning, or morning it is here from the beautiful Canberra.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: Lots of hot and suniness here today.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: To uh, my next gorgeous, wonderful guest for today, which is a lovely lady called Sam Payne.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: How are you today, Sam?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: The juggle is flowing for a Monday today.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's all good.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: It is, it is.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm also I'm very excited to speak to Sam.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_03: Sam is a wonderful lady who I see in all different areas of the world, usually on TV or radio.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: We were just so, so lucky that she was part of the Melbourne Fertility Expo because Sam has an amazing story full of heart and love, um, lots of highs and lows.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: And she is the co-founder and CEO of Pink Elephants.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_03: So, um, and Pink Elephants, um, I just love this.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's a beautiful name.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so before we can go into a lot of conversation, let me share who Sam is, and then we will go into our lovely chat of the work that she does and why she does it, and the support and you know, the transformation she makes for people um who have who are on this journey or have been on this journey to um walk forward with open hearts and healed hearts.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: So Sam is the co-founder and CEO of Pink Elephants and is driven to ensure no one faces the journey of early pregnancy loss alone.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that every bereavement that parents receive, they do that with support, empathy, and understanding that they deserve.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_03: Sam is an empathetic, engaging, knowledgeable, and impactful advocate for those experiencing early pregnancy loss.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: She is an experienced public speaker with an ability to engage all.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: She speaks from the heart, sharing her own journey as well as those of hundreds and thousands of pink elephants.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, sorry, as well as those of the thousands that have pink elephant support.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: She links to a strong evidence base to create a clear call to action, to inspire enhanced support for those experiencing early pregnancy loss.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: She is a challenging cultural norm.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: She's challenging cultural norms, breaking the silence, and initiating much needed change.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, Sam, I just love the work that you're doing.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_03: Now I know the work we do can tend to come a lot from the fact that we've walked that path.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: And walking that path doesn't always mean it's easy.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, a lot of it takes courage.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I know I I do a lot of this work because of my own 10-year fertility journey and having a baby at 46.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: So, Sam, tell us about what how did Pink Elephant survive?
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: What was your path coming and walking this path of life?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: It definitely wasn't one that I um planned um at all.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, um, similar to probably a lot of listeners in this space, I'd kind of up until my fertility challenge, I did walk through all areas of life where you kind of work harder at it and you achieve the outcome that you want.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of like, okay, you go through university, you get the grade that you want, you trial in the career that you want, you work hard, you progress in this kind of linear fashion.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we also emigrated from England over to Australia.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: We got married, we bought our first home, and everything was kind of like a tick box in that way.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then we had um our experiences of miscarriage.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I am now a proud parent to three beautiful children that I get to parent every day.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um massive um gratitude there, and obviously in a really good place.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to acknowledge that can be hard for some listeners, but I can never forget the journey that I went on to have those children.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we lost three much loved and wanted babies on the way um throughout that 10 years, similar to yourself.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I kind of thought that you have this idea that you'll have two kids by 30 and then you kind of set, right?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that just wasn't my path at all.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was after my second miscarriage, um, where I was a complete and utter mess, in all honesty, and I was searching for help, but I couldn't find help.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: There was nothing for miscarriage or specific to a loss at that gestation.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there was a lot of stuff for later term, which was great, but again, also some of that was physical, and I wasn't ready to be physically in a room with people.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was really fortunate that I decided to do something about that.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I channeled a lot of those kind of really difficult emotions, such as anger and disbelief and frustration and dismay that people in the healthcare system hadn't protected me the way that I thought I should be protected and offered support.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I created the pink elephants from that.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: And pink elephants is a beautiful story as well, in itself, that within the elephant community, the more the elephant loses her baby, the other elephants form a physical circle of support around her.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we're pink elephants, because that's what we had the vision for.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: A vision that no one should go through early pregnancy loss alone, that everyone should be met by a support network for them, their own support circle, and just to provide that validation, empathy, and connection that was so desperately lacking in 2016 when I started this.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Back in 2016, it doesn't sound that long ago, but there were no conversations around miscarriage in a public domain.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: It was very much silenced, it was very much whispered about.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you'd have the occasional celebrity might speak about it, but that was pretty much it.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: There was nothing, there was no discourse.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there was no advocacy to change things in health systems, there was no government reform happening in this area.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was seen as something that was already dealt with, or at worst, a private women's issue that should be dealt with in private.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so we had a lot to tackle.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't think I realized how big the problems were that we were trying to tackle in those early days, but I definitely took my lived experience.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I knew that it also couldn't just be my lived experience.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: So even in those early days, we held focus groups with other women with experiences like ours, and we asked them questions about what they felt, what they thought was missing, and what they would have liked if they had the opportunity for support.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that helped us really build the foundations for pink elephants.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and now we're a decade in, and so much more has happened in that time.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yes, a decade.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: Again, it doesn't sound like long, but it really so much change has happened.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: And um, I know I've loved hearing your different stories on the different platforms that I've seen you um show up in and about sharing, you know, about loss.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, one in four people have um miscarriages, and um, and these are only the ones we hear of, you know.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's not confirmed either.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's a guest of data that's we don't collect it.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know the true number of miscarriages in Australia because there's no national pregnancy loss register.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yeah.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: So this is only what we hear of.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: And so again, by creating the conversation, we're allowing more people, we're giving that allowance to, you know, let's talk about it, let's support, let's help, because it is so massive.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_03: Now, um, I for me, I and I and I so agree with what you said before, is like we have this perception, you know, we'll we'll get married, we'll have kids, and then we can move on.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: And that isn't always the case, and there's so much grief and lack of expectations.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I know for me, I've put all of my attention and turned it inwards.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: There was something so wrong with me.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, there wasn't that support for me.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm so glad that you have created this change for support.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's a big thing because we were just chatting before, you know, with creating the Melbourne Fertility Expo in the year before I created the the um the camp, the um Australian Fertility Summit, you know, there's a thing about how do we break that silence, that shame and stigma.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so, what do you feel needs to happen to create that change?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think there needs to be consistent conversations day in, day out, in many different settings around the experience of pregnancy loss to make people stop and think and realize that it's not just an early loss, it's not at least it happened early, or at least, you know, you can get pregnant.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: We need to move people from that common misperception and those false narratives that exist.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: We need to tell them the truth.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: And with the truth, then that will lead us to a place of more validation, empathy, and connection.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: But alongside that, we also need those conversations to be happening at many different levels.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got government levels they need to be happening at so that we can inform policy reform.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, government obviously plays a really crucial role in our health system and the way that the health system delivers um support for women who go through these issues and many other issues.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: We know that there's a lot of terms now used around medical misogyny and the gaslighting of women through women's pain and how long it takes to diagnose women of certain issues, because we are the evidence base for our healthcare system is based on men.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's just not us.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, making sure that conversations around early pregnancy loss are centered in government and that miscarriage is considered within the women's health as well.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's not just a women's issue either.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Partners' grief, too, providing support for partners, making sure that they're considered within policy.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, when we lobbied federal government for leave for loss to ensure bereavement leave after a miscarriage, we were non-negotiable for us, whether partners were included in that, that it wasn't just for the woman, because we know we would get pushback, cost, etc.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: But for us, that was a non-negotiable.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's those kind of conversations at policy and government level.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Then you've got conversations in the community, educating people on what they can say, how they can help people, what's the right thing to say, moving people from these false narratives and assumptions to actually my baby died and I'm grieving and it's okay for me to grieve.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is how I feel, this is what I need, and giving language around the experience that doesn't minimize or detract from it.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't even like the time term early.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you put early in front of pregnancy loss, what you're automatically doing is saying, Oh, well, it happened early.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: You're kind of benchmarking the loss and the grief worthiness on the gestation of that baby.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you shouldn't ask someone how far along were they, is often something we hear in our community.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter how far along I was, whether it was the same day I'd had a positive pregnancy test or whether I was eight weeks.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: To me, I have lost my baby, and I deserve to be able to grieve that in a way that's healthy and appropriate for me.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so conversations in community, and then you've got conversations in workplace as well, which is often a massively overlooked area and something that pink elephants has really led and spearheaded the change within.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And we're proud of that one because we spend so much of our time in the workplace.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, so many of our colleagues have a lack of education, they're not equipped with the tools in how to have conversations with people going through this.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: They have no understanding because they don't have lived experience of this.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: And we need to move from a position where we're asking people with lived experience to be their own internal advocate to having advocates within the workplace who can be that go-to person for them and their people leaders.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a lot of change that needs to happen there as well.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yes, so much change.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_03: So I like that.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: So what I'm hearing about creating change and the stigma is looking at what we can what we can support the government to do and bring that education, helping with community as well, and the workspace.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um, three big areas that um really need support and help because they don't always know, like you say, if there's no lived experience, they don't know how to speak to people and that language.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: So what what would you say, you know, can we can help when people have lost?
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: What is the right language?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: How can people really support other people who've had that experience to people who haven't?
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: I want to also acknowledge here that it can be hard because you're almost scared of saying the wrong thing.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So you step away and say nothing.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: We hear that a lot.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's more about remembering three key pointers, and that is validation, empathy, and connection.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can remember those three things, your response will usually generally be along the right lines.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: So validation, when I talk about acknowledging their loss rather than reducing it, no statements begin with at least it happened early, at least you know you can get pregnant.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: We don't want to try and find a silver lining to someone whose baby has just died because there is no silver lining to them.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: We're not trying to go and find solutions and say, well, my aunt's aunt saw this acupuncturist and now she's got nine babies.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like we don't, we're not at that stage where we want advice.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: We just want you to acknowledge our loss and the magnitude that might be.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: We also want you to show up for us in ways that you would show up for any other type of bereavement.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: So if someone else had passed away, would you be sending flowers?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Would you be dropping a hot meal around?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Would you be looking after older children?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: The same applies in this scenario, and that needs to kind of follow through as well.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then connection, ensuring that they know where they can go to to access support.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Give them a link to Pink Elephant, say, hey, I've just found this website, it might be helpful.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Check in with them via text messages, but expect no response and put that in the message, hey, I'm thinking of you.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: I know this is a really hard time for you.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: Enough.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be war and peace.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to try and find these silver linings and solutions.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's more around, I'm really sorry this is happening to you.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here when you're ready.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: And they're kind of giving that.
• 14:59
  unknown: Yeah.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_03: It is, it is about being able to take that breath and hold it and love them and yeah, what needs to happen.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: How can I support you?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: How can I help you?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And also, even maybe not even asking them how, in terms of actually just showing up in those early stages and doing things like dropping that hot meal off.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that you're removing that burden of expectation for them to kind of advocate for themselves.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's true.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's also like something that we don't talk about enough.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: And rallying around with your friend group.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, can you do something together for that friend in your group that's going through this?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then remembering that this is not a moment in time.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: So you can acknowledge the grief now.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: My baby's just died.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I also find it really beautiful for those friends that remember things like due dates.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: I know this might be a difficult time coming up for you.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm here for you if you want to walk and talk or a coffee.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Those type of friendships really matter, and those are the ones that last through these experiences because I think another false narrative that we need to really challenge is that miscarriage is a moment in time.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Two of us on this call here both have a decade-long of our life stories dedicated to these fertility chapters where we were trying to build the family that we wanted.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I often think that miscarriage and infertility journeys is seen as something that can be fixed quickly.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: People who haven't had IVF, oh, let's just go and have IVF, you'll be fine, you can have a baby.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that simple.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: The success rates of IVF are not that way at all.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so we need to be really mindful as well in that space that these can last for years, and you still need to include your friend, your loved one in meaningful ways throughout that and give them options to opt out as well.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Think of things like baby showers, think of things like baby announcements.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Could you send a message just saying, hey, I know this might be difficult for you.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna tell everyone we're pregnant next weekend at so-and-so's event.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought I'd just send you a text in advance and just leave it.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Just like give them that heads up, private one-on-one, so they can kind of process it themselves.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Don't flaw someone who's just had a miscarriage or someone that's in the trenches of fertility challenges with your pregnancy announcement and expect their first reaction to be happiness for you.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Because we can be happy for you.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: We absolutely can.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes for us to reach that place, we need to process our own grief, our own loss at the where we are in our journeys.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's okay and that's healthy.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we need to again, again, just give that space and give that heads up.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: It can make such a difference.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I love that, Sam.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm just gonna like almost reflect on that.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: I love, like you say, um, allowing that opt-out, you know, if you've got, if you if you if you're enjoying some wonderful things that have happened for you, if you're pregnant and baby showers, that actually, if you'll have a loved one that has experienced the opposite, that you can allow that opt-out with a text.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: That is beautiful.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for sharing that, you know, giving that heads up.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: And language to help someone is about validation, empathy, and connection.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: And with that, we're acknowledging and we're being able to honor what's been going on for that individual.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Sam.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh thank you, Sam.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's really, really powerful words of support.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, going back to the workplace, um, because that is a big area, and I know I have a lot of clients in the in the workspace area, and some workspaces are really great, some workspaces not so great, and having to manage that.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: So, what rights do women have in their workplace um when they experience something like miscarriage or loss?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so thank you to the campaign from Pink Elephants Leaf for Loss.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: In September 2021, there was an amendment to the Fur Work Act of Australia, which under the compassionate/slash bereavement leave act, there is now an entitlement of two days paid bereavement leave for a pregnancy loss prior to 20 weeks.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: And where that matters, that matters because it is again removing this disenfranchised grief because you are firmly saying this is bereavement like any other type of loss.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas prior to leave for loss, what we were seeing were women taking sick leave.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sick, I haven't broken my arm, I don't have the flu.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: My baby has died.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: I am entitled to bereavement leave.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: I shouldn't be having to use my sick leave.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that was almost like one of the first steps in terms of policy.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, policy reform is one part of the puzzle.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: But then what needs to happen around that is then workplaces need to take that on notice and say, well, what else can I do?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because if this issue is impacting one in three, one in four women, again, we don't know the true number because of lack of data.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a significant portion of women and their partners right now in workplaces struggling through this issue, arguably in silence, arguably you're facing issues such as presenteism, where they're there, but they're not really showing up, they're not really getting their usual task load done, they might be behaving in a different way.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: You've now got also the psychosocial hazards and the way that workplaces have to meet and address some psychosocial hazards.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: And we'd argue that PTSD from loss and um post-natal depression, all the sort of anxiety and depression that associates with this as well.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: We need to be really mindful again that workplaces are playing a role in addressing this as one of those root issues to those anxiety and depression or mental health, poor mental health outcomes.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so workplaces need to provide support appropriate to their workplace.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: What we see is some really great examples are workplaces way extending that two days' leave and giving two weeks' leave for any type of loss at any gestation, which feels a lot more reflective of the actual need of that person.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Can you imagine going back to work when you're still bleeding the loss of that baby?
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the most appropriate place to be.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now, for some people, we have to know that some people want to be at work because they want to distract themselves.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so it is a choice, right?
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really important to admit that not everyone's the same.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, majority of people that we speak to would like to take at least 10 days leave off to be able to kind of start to come up for uh process what's happened to them, communicate to their loved ones and kind of move through that and put some really healthy, great and rituals in place as well.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: So workplaces need to look at that policy and see what else they can do for their people.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then they need to provide support tools.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: We have a whole program where we work with a number of organizations and we provide what we call as peer support companions in the workplace.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they are women and partners with lived experience of these journeys, fertility challenges, pregnancy loss.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And what they do is they go through a training module with pink elephants in how to hold space and provide support for those people in their workplace going through this, but also how to support people leaders to support their people through this.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's often a gap not noticed, right?
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: That someone's on their team, they know they've gone through this, they genuinely have no idea what to say, what to do.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: That peer support companion in that workplace can be the go to person that can say, Hey, here's a couple of resources from Think Elephants that I suggest you give to this person.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Here's the leave policy that they're entitled to.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And just real clarity so that again, what we're trying to do is remove the burden from the person who's going through this in having to advocate for themselves.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: There is nothing worse.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And we still get emails on the weekly in our contact inbox.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like we had one that was a nurse the other week.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: A nurse, a nurse saying that she was being told she had to take sick leave.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we're like, this is ridiculous.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: She meant to be in a compassionate field.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, Can you send me a link to the act so that I can then forward it on?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I think workplaces have a long way to go, but I am hopeful that the conversation change is happening and it's starting.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, there's a lot more work to be done.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: Great.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my goodness.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_03: The work you're doing is really creating so much change.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to make sure that I share that link as well in the show notes.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_03: So this is all beautiful, um, sad but beautiful change that you're making within Australia.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: And uh, we've had a really lovely chat about you know what what we need to have new conversations, how do we need to make reform, looking at um that leave for loss.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_03: Is there anything else that as we round up and finish this conversation that you would like to share?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_03: What would be some top tools as well that we can live people with that they can action?
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think again, it is giving yourself the space to grieve the loss of your baby.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I think that often society can suppress people's reactions to this because you're kind of sold down that river of the false narratives of, oh, well, at least it happened early, don't worry about it.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: It happens, it's common, you'll be right, you'll be pregnant again soon enough.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so you start to internalize a lot of that and you don't actually acknowledge your own grief and you kind of silence your own reaction and you suppress a lot of emotions, and then you might fall pregnant again fairly quickly and you might progress through that pregnancy.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: But often what we see then is upon mental health outcomes kind of come out later because of the lack of validation, empathy, and connection and support at that time when you really needed it.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I think what people need to hear is that permission slip to grief, that permission slip to go, it's okay, your baby died.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: This is an awful thing that happened to you.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then, second to that, what's really important is it's not your fault.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: We talked on this earlier, that kind of where you internalize, particularly those of us on the longer journeys, like mine was recurrent pregnancy loss.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I started analyzing everything I was doing as if it was my fault.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: It was that one glass of wine, it was that run that I went for too long, it was that flight that I took for work, it was the stress, it was this, and you're just absolutely piling everything on yourselves again because there's such a lack of support and kind of research into this area as well.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: So there's definitely that permission to grieve, that permission, and that's also the loss of an IVF transfer as well.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: Don't just kind of put this straight just as pregnancy loss, right?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: That is a loss too.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: So much hopes and dreams have gone into that, and then it's not where you want it to end.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then on top of that, that kind of removing that self-blame.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: It isn't your fault, it's nothing you've done.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Reach out for as much support because you deserve all of the support and all of the validation that you can access.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_03: That brings up quite a bit of emotion for me, actually, because um I always used to feel like I I I'd never got pregnant and lost it, but I'd never managed to get pregnant.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: So I always thought there was something wrong with me.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: And it was uh I I really love what you said, that permission slip to grieve, you know.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_03: And and I always felt, well, I I didn't even get pregnant yet.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: The grief and the, you know, just I not knowing what to do, where to go, or who I was, and falling in a pile.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I I think that's very powerful, the permission slip to grieve, you know.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, very powerful.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: Just the allowance.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: You decide that you want to be a parent, right?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: You fall in love.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's a conscious decision that we make, and then you're kind of wearing your heart on your sleeve, it's outside, and yet no one knows because you've kind of not told people maybe that you're going through this or you're trying to conceive, and so much of this then compounds internally, and you're having all of these conversations inside.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: And if only you just gave yourself the space to have them with someone who gets this from lived experience.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think peer support is massively underrepresented in this area, particularly just across women's health in general.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: But I think there's so much more that can be done with early intervention peer support to normalize the way that we might be feeling.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, things like I can't believe I'm jealous that my best friend is pregnant and I'm not, like, because you might not want to say that out loud because it feels awful, but it's actually a perfectly healthy and reasonable reaction if you think about what's going on for you.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that we've got a role now, as those that have been through these experiences, in shifting these conversations to normalize the reactions and to give new language to wrap around to hopefully make this easier.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I know for me now, I'm done.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very grateful to never have to face pregnancy ever again.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: But I know that I've got these three incredible children and I look forward 20, 30 years away and go, well, what happens when it happens to them?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because chances are to one of them, it's highly likely they're gonna have some issues.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want to make sure I've played my role in shifting this narrative and moving the conversation and making sure that it isn't what it was when I went through my experience in 2016 and 17 and 20.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, well, you're definitely doing that, you're definitely shifting it and creating the conversation, which is I um absolutely validate and and am very passionate about.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm so glad that um you have chosen to walk out and really kind of make that shift happen.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, Sam.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I know out of your busy day, you've come to talk to me.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: I am very, very grateful.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: All right that.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: And with that, sending lots of love to everybody and have a beautiful day.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: You too.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Take care.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Liz.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Bye.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for joining us at the Homer Fertility.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: We hope today's episode brought you clarity, comfort, and connection.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: If this podcast resonated, please share it.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: Leave a review or subscribe.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: This helps us support more people that are on this path.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if you'd like to connect or share your story, find us on Instagram and Facebook at Australian Fertility Summit.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: Remember the missing piece might be waiting in a story, your body's wisdom, or something new, just made for you.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Take care, and we'll see you next time.