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The Detective’s Mind: Murder, Arson and the Evidence That Solves Crimes · Real Crime with Adam Shand

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Speaker 1: A Poche Production.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shan. I'm your host,
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Speaker 2: Adam Shan. For most of us, murder investigations and deliberately
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Speaker 2: lit fires are things we only ever see through the
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Speaker 2: lens of television dramas or newspaper headlines. But behind every
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Speaker 2: crime scene is a detective trying to make sense of chaos,
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Speaker 2: uncover the truth and ultimately bring justice to victims and
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Speaker 2: their families. My guest today is former homicide detective and
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Speaker 2: arson investigator Jeff Maher, a man who spent decades confronting
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Speaker 2: some of the darkest acts human beings can commit. He
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Speaker 2: investigated murders, hunted arsonists, interviewed killers and witnessed firsthand the
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Speaker 2: extraordinary dedication, patience and resilience required to solve the most
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Speaker 2: serious crimes. Today we go behind the police tape. to
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Speaker 2: explore what it's really like to investigate homicides, how arson
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Speaker 2: detectives uncover evidence from the ashes, the cases that have
1:05
Speaker 2: stayed with Geoff throughout his career, and how years of
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Speaker 2: dealing with violence shape the way he sees crime, justice,
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Speaker 2: and human nature. Geoff Marr, welcome to Real Crime with
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Speaker 2: Adam Shan.
1:15
Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Adam.
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Speaker 2: Fabulous career, well done.
1:18
Speaker 1: Thank you. Yes, it's been a journey, that's for sure,
1:21
Speaker 1: but it's still not over. It's still not over.
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Speaker 2: Yes, because you're not finished. Not only are you teaching
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Speaker 2: at the academy and you're also doing work up in Cambodia,
1:33
Speaker 2: which we'll get to later in the interview, but tell me,
1:36
Speaker 2: how did policing begin for you? Back in 1973, I
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Speaker 2: was at Burwood High School out in the eastern suburbs
1:42
Speaker 2: of Melbourne.
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Speaker 1: And at that point in time, you could put in
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Speaker 1: for a number of jobs and probably be successful. So
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Speaker 1: I put in for a plumber's apprenticeship. I put in
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Speaker 1: for the army as an officer at Portsea. And I
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Speaker 1: put in for VicPol, and VicPol came through first.
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Speaker 2: And the rest is history.
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Speaker 1: I went to the depot, which is in St Kilda Road,
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Speaker 1: as a police cadet at 17. And then eventually to
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Speaker 1: the academy at Glen Waverley, one of the first squads
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Speaker 1: going through there, and graduated in 1974 as a constable.
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Speaker 2: Absolute grievous loss to plumbing and the armed forces. I
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Speaker 2: would have thought.
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Speaker 1: Plumbing would have been a good occupation, but anyway.
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Speaker 2: Having your arm up to the elbow in, you know, doo-doo.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
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Speaker 2: Perfect intro to policing. But why homicide? Did you always
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Speaker 2: want to do that?
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Speaker 1: Well, it was interesting because when I joined VicPol, I
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Speaker 1: did the normal things. I went out to the stations.
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Speaker 1: I was at Russell Street then, and then I ended
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Speaker 1: up in a suburban stations and then out to the east.
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Speaker 1: But always had a sort of a liking of being,
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Speaker 1: you know, the detective role. In investigating, I had that
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Speaker 1: sort of mindset. So back then it was a little
2:52
Speaker 1: bit different to apply. You would get a series of
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Speaker 1: arrests on a list and then you would submit that
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Speaker 1: and then you would get a panel and then they
3:02
Speaker 1: would classify you as an A, B or C, A plus, A,
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Speaker 1: B or C rating. I got an A plus luckily
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Speaker 1: and four years in the job I was a detective
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Speaker 1: constable and ended up at Russell Street Police Station. And
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Speaker 1: then ended up just going a series of suburban detective branches, CIBs,
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Speaker 1: and then ended up eventually in the city at a
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Speaker 1: crime squad.
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Speaker 2: Some homicide detectives say that as a uniformed constable, you
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Speaker 2: attend a fatal or two crime scene and you go,
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Speaker 2: this is for me. Do you have that similar experience?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm probably unique. I don't. Bodies... And those sort
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Speaker 1: of crime scenes have never affected me. I look at
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Speaker 1: the crime scene as a piece of evidence. And, you know,
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Speaker 1: I am a little bit emotional in relation to, you know,
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Speaker 1: what's happened to the victim. But at the end of
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Speaker 1: the day, we're there to solve the crime. So, you know,
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Speaker 1: I'm fairly attentive and thorough towards crime scenes. And, you know,
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Speaker 1: the purpose is to pursue the crooks. I love the
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Speaker 1: thrill of the chase. And that's what came out of
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Speaker 1: being a detective.
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Speaker 2: Because some homicide detectives say they're great with the evidence,
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Speaker 2: they're great with the bodies, they're okay with that, but
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Speaker 2: they're hopeless with the families and the victims' loved ones.
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Speaker 2: Which category do you fall into?
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Speaker 1: Well, when I had a crew, when I went to
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Speaker 1: the Homicide Squad in 1994 as a detective senior sergeant,
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Speaker 1: I was there for 15 years. I had crew four
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Speaker 1: initially and then crew one. We'd have two sergeants and
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Speaker 1: four detectives per crew, so in other words, eight detectives.
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Speaker 1: on my crew. I would see the strengths and weaknesses
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Speaker 1: in all my troops and I would also see my
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Speaker 1: strengths and weaknesses. I was pretty good at liaising with victims'
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Speaker 1: families and I was pretty good at analysing and managing
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Speaker 1: crime scenes. I delegated witness statement taking to most of
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Speaker 1: the troops or the sergeants, except in some of the
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Speaker 1: police shootings I did where we were required to take
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Speaker 1: the statements. Yeah, I was pretty good with the victims' families,
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Speaker 1: and I'm still in touch, as you probably know, with
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Speaker 1: George L. Vargas and the family, Messina's family, and the Pattersons,
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Speaker 1: Nicky Patterson's family as well. Also Mark Higgins, Paul and
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Speaker 1: Carmel Higgins that were murdered in Forest Hill. So, you know,
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Speaker 1: I was pretty good with the victims' families and a
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Speaker 1: good relationship and liaison. And also, as I said, I
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Speaker 1: was pretty good managing crime scenes, big or small crime scenes,
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Speaker 1: it really didn't matter.
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Speaker 2: You've jumped straight to the serial killer Peter Dupas with
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Speaker 2: the discussion about Al Vargas and Nicole Patterson and Margaret Marr.
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Speaker 2: Was that the biggest string of murders that you dealt
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Speaker 2: with or the most evil serial killer, if you like?
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Speaker 1: Prior to that, that investigation, I was actually licensed in
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Speaker 1: gaming advice and gaming advice as a senior sergeant. and
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Speaker 1: then the detective senior sergeant when it turned into the
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Speaker 1: Gaming Advice Squad, which did the probities on the gaming
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Speaker 1: machines and also the casino. But we were used for
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Speaker 1: the triple murders down at Frankston, and I went down
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Speaker 1: there and assisted with my team from the Gaming Advice
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Speaker 1: Squad for a massive campaign we had down there in
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Speaker 1: the Pines that resulted in the arrest eventually of Paul Denya.
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Speaker 1: That was sort of the first introduction. And then, as
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Speaker 1: you said, PDG pass. And that was an interesting story
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Speaker 1: because our crew was so snowed under with briefs and
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Speaker 1: jobs that we had. I actually said to the crew,
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Speaker 1: I said, listen, I'm going to take this brief on
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Speaker 1: myself and I'll be the informant in the matter, which
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Speaker 1: is unusual because senior sergeants don't really do the briefs
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Speaker 1: there except for police shootings. So I took the brief
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Speaker 1: on and it's lived with me till now. So that's
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Speaker 1: 1999 until now, some 27 years later, and I'm still
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Speaker 1: getting property chases from our property area within Victoria Police.
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Speaker 2: What's that all about?
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Speaker 1: Well, what happens is they retain the property in those
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Speaker 1: particular investigations, and there were six victims of GPAS, and
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Speaker 1: all the property's retained, and every now and then they
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Speaker 1: spit out a property query to me about what's happening
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Speaker 1: with a particular investigation that's got to be answered. I see.
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Speaker 2: You talk about you passing, you're saying six victims. He's
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Speaker 2: only serving three life sentences. Are you saying there's three more?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's serving, obviously, Nicky Patterson was the first one,
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Speaker 1: life at no minimum. And then it was Margaret Marr.
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Speaker 1: And then it was Masuna Helvagas. And all three life
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Speaker 1: at no minimums, he's serving on those. And then there
8:00
Speaker 1: was Kathleen Downs. My belief is that was a discontinuance
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Speaker 1: of the trial. He was charged, but it was a discontinuance.
8:08
Speaker 1: And there was Renita Bruton at a second-hand clothing store
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Speaker 1: in Sunbury. And there was Helen McMahon at the Rye
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Speaker 1: Back Beach. And I think it was about 1985, we
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Speaker 1: believed he's a very, very good suspect for that as well.
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Speaker 2: Do you think that is his full tally?
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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. We utilised Dr Jenny Moussos, who was a
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Speaker 1: statistician with the National Homicide Monitoring Program in Canberra in
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Speaker 1: relation to unsolved which had a signature and she basically
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Speaker 1: gave us that list and we reviewed that list myself
8:48
Speaker 1: Paul Scarlett and also Mick Daly Chris O'Connor and Greg
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Speaker 1: Huff we all reviewed and they were the ones that
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Speaker 1: we settled on we believe he was responsible for interfering
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Speaker 1: with some female bodies in the Heidelberg Repat Hospital in
9:05
Speaker 1: the 70s, I think. But we can never prove that.
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Speaker 1: But they're the tally.
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Speaker 2: Because some might say, well, he's never coming out of jail.
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Speaker 2: But I have no doubt there are people still within
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Speaker 2: Victoria Police working on solving and resolving and connecting Dupas
9:24
Speaker 2: and others with unsolved murders.
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Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely. The Colcation or Homicide do a great deal
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Speaker 1: of work behind the scenes that people don't know about.
9:34
Speaker 1: And they're plodding away there. And I know that they
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Speaker 1: are actively working on some jobs and they don't telegraph that. But,
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Speaker 1: you know, eventually, as you see every now and again
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Speaker 1: in the media, you get a breakthrough, you know, after
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Speaker 1: 35 or 40 years. And the next thing you know
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Speaker 1: is they've charged an offender.
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Speaker 2: Because the families and loved ones of those victims of
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Speaker 2: unsolved murders tend to stay in contact with detectives and
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Speaker 2: they form bonds and it's very difficult and you know
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Speaker 2: very regrettable if people fall off those jobs and they don't.
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Speaker 1: Yeah well they don't and as I say you don't
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Speaker 1: really hear the wheels turning in the background that are
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Speaker 1: happening at the moment and I'm in contact and it's
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Speaker 1: a good mate of mine Paul Scarlett who's at the
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Speaker 1: uh cold case unit up there and he, you know,
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Speaker 1: I know that there's stuff happening and, you know, new
10:27
Speaker 1: technologies happening, new DNA technologies are happening and so, you know,
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Speaker 1: they never stop trying, they never give up. That was
10:37
Speaker 1: our motto, never give up, so, and we do it
10:39
Speaker 1: for the victims' families, very much so. And we do,
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Speaker 1: you know, we do keep in contact with the unsolved
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Speaker 1: and you try to endeavour to, you know, get them
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Speaker 1: some resolution down the track.
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Speaker 2: Do you have any cold cases from your active career
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Speaker 2: where you think, yeah, that one could still be solved?
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Speaker 1: David Beer was killed whilst on his tractor at Talon Doon,
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Speaker 1: which is up towards the border of Victoria and New
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Speaker 1: South Wales. And, you know, it's been thoroughly investigated a
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Speaker 1: number of times and it's been to inquest, but there's
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Speaker 1: still no resolution. He was shot through the chest with a.
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Speaker 1: 303 at a distance. You know, there are suspects, but
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Speaker 1: has anyone been charged? No, they haven't. I'd like to
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Speaker 1: see someone get charged, but they're still probably bubbling along
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Speaker 1: and working on that in the background as well.
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Speaker 2: And you're not going to tell me the name of
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Speaker 2: that suspect, but I'm sure you've got someone in mind
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Speaker 2: for that.
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Speaker 1: Yes, I've got a name in mind, but there's also,
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Speaker 1: you can't have a closed mind about it. You have
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Speaker 1: to have, you know, as the old DDS motto used
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Speaker 1: to say, keep your mind open like a parachute. You
11:56
Speaker 1: have to keep your mind open and it may be
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Speaker 1: someone else's. But, you know, you never know.
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Speaker 2: Because an old mate of mine who's a crook said
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Speaker 2: to me of murder in the underworld that you've got
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Speaker 2: to be aware that when you kill somebody, the only
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Speaker 2: time you get away with it is when you die.
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Speaker 2: There's always somebody in the works who's going to have
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Speaker 2: a look Yeah.
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Speaker 1: I'd agree with that. Totally. We've worked on jobs that
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Speaker 1: we thought, you know, we had a prime suspect and
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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, that prime suspect turned
12:29
Speaker 1: out to be not the offender. And we've charged, you know,
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Speaker 1: other people as a result of information reports or coming
12:38
Speaker 1: through or. through crime stoppers or other means. And, uh,
12:42
Speaker 1: you know, all of a sudden it's opened up, uh,
12:44
Speaker 1: you know, Pandora's box and, uh, yeah, we've got a
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Speaker 1: result with another offender that we never thought sort of
12:51
Speaker 1: had in the mix. So you just never know.
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Speaker 2: And have there been moments where you've had a red
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Speaker 2: hot suspect and you thought that's him or her instead
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Speaker 2: of not to be?
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Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I won't mention the case, but there was
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Speaker 1: one out the, uh, there was one out the, um,
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Speaker 1: southeast of Melbourne where we had the partner in the
13:14
Speaker 1: frame for a long time and then we got a
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Speaker 1: bit of information that it was another person involved and
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Speaker 1: that person had travelled overseas and we did our investigation
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Speaker 1: and ended up charging him, extraditing him back.
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Speaker 2: Like you say, you've got to keep the mind open.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely.
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Speaker 2: And this whole tunnel vision thing, we've seen in various
13:35
Speaker 2: cases where tunnel vision does, I mean, for instance, I mean,
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Speaker 2: every unsolved in Australia now is being put at the
13:41
Speaker 2: door of Ivan Malat. It really is. And sure, he
13:45
Speaker 2: may have done more. But of course, that fixation and
13:49
Speaker 2: or even working to a profile means that you do
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Speaker 2: exclude all other possibilities.
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Speaker 1: And as a.
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Speaker 2: Senior sergeant, you were supervising other investigators. And I'm sure
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Speaker 2: you had to kind of give them that gentle nudge
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Speaker 2: this way and that to make sure that they, you know,
14:04
Speaker 2: rather than taking the easy road or letting passion take over.
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Speaker 2: It's always about evidence. Yep.
14:10
Speaker 1: So we had a format that we worked to when
14:13
Speaker 1: we got an investigation, a job. You know, we'd get
14:16
Speaker 1: called out. We'd have the pager go off, you know,
14:19
Speaker 1: in the afternoon or the middle of the night. And
14:21
Speaker 1: we ended up, it was a bit of a tats lotto.
14:23
Speaker 1: You might end up at Mallacoota, Melton or Mildura. You
14:27
Speaker 1: never knew. But the format was that I knew the
14:31
Speaker 1: strengths and weaknesses of the crew. They were all basically handpicked.
14:36
Speaker 1: and I knew that I had a good person that
14:39
Speaker 1: would work well with the family. There was another person
14:42
Speaker 1: that was very good on taking detailed statements. Others were
14:46
Speaker 1: good in coordinating door knocks, and some others were good
14:49
Speaker 1: at CCTV. I had some that were really good at
14:54
Speaker 1: maintaining control and a chain of evidence in relation to
14:58
Speaker 1: all the exhibits we got. So, yeah, it was sort
15:01
Speaker 1: of like we could do things by osmosis. We all
15:08
Speaker 1: knew what our job was and we'd come back after,
15:13
Speaker 1: you know, a certain period of time and we'd have
15:16
Speaker 1: a meeting, we'd have a briefing and then we'd re-fix
15:19
Speaker 1: our focus and then off we go again. So it
15:23
Speaker 1: was great. It's the greatest 15 years of my life
15:25
Speaker 1: without a doubt.
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Speaker 2: From what I understand, motivation is never really a problem
15:30
Speaker 2: with detectives. In fact, getting them to stand down and
15:32
Speaker 2: take a break sometimes because when these detectives investigations take off,
15:37
Speaker 2: it's a 24-7 game, isn't it?
15:39
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and it wouldn't happen now. It would not happen now, but,
15:44
Speaker 1: you know, due pass. I think we got called out about,
15:47
Speaker 1: myself and Dave Schneck, got called out about 7 o'clock
15:50
Speaker 1: on the Monday night, and I don't think we basically
15:55
Speaker 1: got to bed till Wednesday. And we'd arrested him in
15:58
Speaker 1: the meantime and charged him, and he was remanded. So, yeah,
16:01
Speaker 1: but it never happened now. Never happened now, that protracted
16:04
Speaker 1: period of time. You know, they've got a lot of
16:08
Speaker 1: well-being and they've got fatigue management in place and so
16:11
Speaker 1: on and so forth. But back then in the 90s,
16:14
Speaker 1: it was a little bit different.
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Speaker 2: It's having a crack until the job is done. When
16:19
Speaker 2: you think of someone like Dupas, you see this human
16:24
Speaker 2: and you see these inhumane acts, brutal, disgusting acts. Do
16:28
Speaker 2: you struggle to connect the two when you've looked at
16:30
Speaker 2: this bloke, you've seen him in custody? You know, is
16:33
Speaker 2: that also a problem for you?
16:34
Speaker 1: When you see Peter G pass, he looks like a
16:38
Speaker 1: bit of a poindexter. He looks like someone that you
16:40
Speaker 1: walk past in the street and you wouldn't even give
16:42
Speaker 1: him a second look. And for him to have the capacity,
16:47
Speaker 1: not only physical and mental capacity, to do what he
16:50
Speaker 1: did to the six victims is a little bit hard
16:54
Speaker 1: to comprehend. You know, even to today, you know, it's
16:57
Speaker 1: a little bit hard to comprehend that one human being
17:00
Speaker 1: would do that to others. and particularly in the manner
17:03
Speaker 1: he did. But, yeah, it's sort of a bit surreal,
17:07
Speaker 1: but you've got to get past that, and, you know,
17:10
Speaker 1: you've got to present a brief to the Supreme Court,
17:12
Speaker 1: and you've got to put the evidence, and you've got
17:15
Speaker 1: to put the evidence to the jury, and, you know,
17:17
Speaker 1: you're after a conviction.
17:19
Speaker 2: Because ultimately, and it sounds funny, but in a murder trial,
17:23
Speaker 2: the motive is probably the smallest aspect. You don't need
17:27
Speaker 2: to understand the psychology of the killer, It's whether you've
17:30
Speaker 2: got the evidence that will prove beyond a reasonable doubt
17:33
Speaker 2: the case you're bringing.
17:34
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I agree with that 100% because a lot
17:37
Speaker 1: of the time you won't know what the motive is
17:40
Speaker 1: or sometimes in the trial the accused will indicate what
17:45
Speaker 1: the motive was and try to diminish their responsibility.
17:49
Speaker 2: A little bit.
17:50
Speaker 1: But yeah, a lot of the time it's the evidence.
17:52
Speaker 1: You've got to get the evidence and you've got to
17:54
Speaker 1: make sure the evidence is there in volumes enough to
17:57
Speaker 1: make sure the jury agrees. get the correct verdict.
18:01
Speaker 2: Now, homicide detectives, I think there's a great generational aspect
18:06
Speaker 2: where these careers overlap, going back to the great investigators
18:10
Speaker 2: of the past. When you started, who were the people
18:13
Speaker 2: that you looked up to as great detectives?
18:17
Speaker 1: I had a couple of bosses, but I looked up
18:20
Speaker 1: to Mick Miller. Mick Miller was the chief, was the
18:24
Speaker 1: second chief. Reg Jackson was my first chief and then
18:27
Speaker 1: Mick Miller, but Mick Miller I admired And over the
18:31
Speaker 1: last couple of decades before he passed away, I got
18:34
Speaker 1: to know him a little bit because he used to
18:36
Speaker 1: visit the academy on occasions where I was in fact
18:40
Speaker 1: teaching at the detective training school.
18:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was lucky enough to meet Mick as well.
18:44
Speaker 2: And you would go to his house there and he
18:45
Speaker 2: would talk about the connection between civil society and policing,
18:50
Speaker 2: the independence needed by Victoria police. And he said to
18:52
Speaker 2: me one day that in a totalitarian society, the police
18:56
Speaker 2: are the instrument of totalitarianism. Therefore, there's got to be
19:00
Speaker 2: some independence. And I think that's what you need when
19:02
Speaker 2: you're working on high-pressure, high-profile jobs. And I think he
19:07
Speaker 2: was great at doing that.
19:08
Speaker 1: Oh, he was just the absolute professional. A highly intelligent
19:11
Speaker 1: man that motivated people and sadly missed. But he had
19:16
Speaker 1: a great life.
19:17
Speaker 2: He did. And a bit like you, you've kept working
19:20
Speaker 2: in the public interest after your career. Mick was involved
19:23
Speaker 2: in doing pauper funerals. until he could virtually not walk anymore.
19:27
Speaker 2: He used to be, he was part of a team
19:28
Speaker 2: that actually organized for paupers to be buried and have
19:32
Speaker 2: a Christian burial. I thought it was just a magnificent
19:35
Speaker 2: demonstration of how police see themselves in the community rather
19:41
Speaker 2: than being just part of the blue family. And I
19:43
Speaker 2: think you understand that as well.
19:45
Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I sort of half realized a little bit
19:49
Speaker 1: that he was doing a little bit of something like that.
19:52
Speaker 1: in relation to humanity. So yeah, he was a great man,
19:55
Speaker 1: very good man. Other detectives, you know, that I admire, yeah,
20:01
Speaker 1: they were good people. But mainly Mick Miller, you know,
20:04
Speaker 1: he was sort of an inspirational guy.
20:07
Speaker 2: Now, we in the media are obsessed by homicide, murder investigations, detectives.
20:12
Speaker 2: there are umpteen shows and podcasts and things. When you
20:15
Speaker 2: look at these things or listen to podcasts, you listen
20:17
Speaker 2: to minor code, which is great. Thank you very much.
20:19
Speaker 2: Do you kind of chuckle? Like when you see some
20:21
Speaker 2: of the characterizations?
20:23
Speaker 1: Well, I do a lot of cop shows. I don't watch,
20:26
Speaker 1: but it was homicide life on the streets. I used
20:28
Speaker 1: to enjoy and hill street blues, uh, which were probably
20:32
Speaker 1: a little bit more realistic. I think the wire was
20:34
Speaker 1: another one, which was pretty good as well. But, uh,
20:38
Speaker 1: I do chuckle, uh, and, uh, Because, you know, it's
20:41
Speaker 1: all about being thorough. It's all about making sure that
20:45
Speaker 1: you don't hopefully miss anything, putting a good brief together,
20:49
Speaker 1: getting the evidence, coordinating it all and presenting it well
20:52
Speaker 1: before the courts. And it's not like the romanticised way
21:00
Speaker 1: that they portray it sometimes in a lot of these
21:03
Speaker 1: TV programs. There's a lot of hard slog.
21:05
Speaker 2: Well, there is. And I think what we also see
21:07
Speaker 2: in those shows is often like the eureka moments, my instinct,
21:10
Speaker 2: my hunch. What role does instinct or hunches or feelings
21:14
Speaker 2: play in these investigations?
21:16
Speaker 1: Well, there was a eureka moment and that was in
21:19
Speaker 1: relation to the murder of Nikki Patterson, where we were
21:22
Speaker 1: doing some phone checks and there was a eureka moment
21:25
Speaker 1: with Nikki Holmes, may she rest in peace, my analyst
21:30
Speaker 1: at the time, and Mick Daly. And yeah, we had
21:34
Speaker 1: a bit of that moment and uh it all became
21:37
Speaker 1: very clear after uh some of our phone work.
21:40
Speaker 2: That we did right now one of the great detectives
21:43
Speaker 2: of victoria ron eddles used to say the answer's in
21:48
Speaker 2: the file is that true that sometimes that little tiny
21:51
Speaker 2: detail overlooked of a previous inquiry can lead to the answer.
21:56
Speaker 1: Yes and i'm just i'm putting the thinking cap on
22:01
Speaker 1: at the moment but yes true We had one case
22:05
Speaker 1: which was the murder of Robert Foots up on the
22:07
Speaker 1: border near Wodonga. He was shot through the chest whilst
22:12
Speaker 1: patrolling his property for thieves that were stealing star pickets.
22:16
Speaker 1: And we had some tyre impressions left at the scene,
22:20
Speaker 1: a Kumo 720, I can remember it vividly, and we also,
22:25
Speaker 1: that's all we had. So we did a comprehensive investigation
22:29
Speaker 1: in relation to possible motives. We did a comprehensive check
22:35
Speaker 1: of all the Kumo 720 tyres that had been fitted
22:38
Speaker 1: around a couple of hundred kilometre radius. But at the end,
22:43
Speaker 1: we had nothing after a couple of weeks. So we
22:46
Speaker 1: sat down and we did a complete review. Stephen Tregard,
22:50
Speaker 1: Phil Sheppard and a couple of Ian Campbell, a couple
22:53
Speaker 1: of great detectives there. We sat down and we went
22:56
Speaker 1: through the file. And in one of the statements, it
23:00
Speaker 1: said that Robert Foote's had a bad memory. And that
23:04
Speaker 1: he would write everything down on a notebook because he
23:08
Speaker 1: used to have a pocket put in the front of
23:11
Speaker 1: his polo shirts so he could put his notebook in
23:15
Speaker 1: there because of his memory. So we went and grabbed
23:18
Speaker 1: that notebook and written on the back of that notebook
23:21
Speaker 1: was a registration number. And it ended up being the
23:24
Speaker 1: registration number of the murderer. And we subsequently charged a
23:30
Speaker 1: man with the murder of Robert Foote. And it was
23:33
Speaker 1: in the files. It was in the evidence, it was
23:35
Speaker 1: in the file and we reviewed it and we went
23:37
Speaker 1: back and we had that Eureka moment.
23:41
Speaker 2: Few and far between that. So you're normally a lot
23:43
Speaker 2: more slob. What's the longest you've ever worked on a
23:44
Speaker 2: particular case?
23:46
Speaker 1: I'd say it would be David Beer.
23:49
Speaker 2: Which is still unsolved.
23:50
Speaker 1: Still unsolved, many years. And we come back to it
23:53
Speaker 1: every now and then when we had a bit of
23:55
Speaker 1: a lull in proceedings. But others were a quick arrest.
23:58
Speaker 1: You know, the evidence was obvious and we were able
24:01
Speaker 1: to get enough to get a good brief together and
24:05
Speaker 1: some were a little bit more protracted like uh the
24:08
Speaker 1: robert foots matter bit of a postscript on uh robert
24:12
Speaker 1: foots his uh his uh son was a very young
24:16
Speaker 1: boy when i first started that job and uh he's
24:20
Speaker 1: now a senior sergeant up at uh up at wodonga
24:24
Speaker 1: and a great great copper too.
24:26
Speaker 2: Okay any of your kids in the job.
24:28
Speaker 1: No no no one of my at uh One of
24:32
Speaker 1: my daughters is doing a law degree. But I think
24:37
Speaker 1: she's got a leaning to go towards the OPP or
24:42
Speaker 1: prosecution side.
24:45
Speaker 2: Now, one thing that I've noted over my time in
24:47
Speaker 2: journalism is the amount of women who've disappeared and police
24:53
Speaker 2: have said, oh, well, she's a flighty female. She'll come back.
24:57
Speaker 2: And a lot of those cases, they still have never
24:59
Speaker 2: come back. And I think there's an awareness now. We
25:03
Speaker 2: see you've got missing persons homicide teams now. And that
25:07
Speaker 2: first 24 hours where there are suspicious circumstances, how often
25:11
Speaker 2: have you seen that play out in that way, that
25:13
Speaker 2: those initial steps, when particularly a female goes missing, that
25:17
Speaker 2: there's murder afoot?
25:19
Speaker 1: I agree with what you said. There are cases that obviously,
25:23
Speaker 1: and the majority of them turn out to be a very,
25:25
Speaker 1: very poor outcome, that the person is... you know, disappeared
25:33
Speaker 1: and the initial action on the crime scene and the
25:38
Speaker 1: witness canvassing and so on is very important in those
25:41
Speaker 1: particular things because, in my humble opinion, a lot of
25:44
Speaker 1: the time they turn out to be a poor outcome and,
25:47
Speaker 1: you know, they've been murdered.
25:50
Speaker 2: So again, don't make an assumption. Declare a crime scene.
25:55
Speaker 2: Understand what's potentially there at the crime scene which will
25:57
Speaker 2: give evidence for prosecution later.
26:00
Speaker 1: Absolutely, because it's so easy now to track people today,
26:05
Speaker 1: so very easy to track people, it's very, very hard
26:08
Speaker 1: to disappear. And a lot of the time, they've disappeared
26:13
Speaker 1: and it's sinister.
26:14
Speaker 2: Right. The other thing that I've noticed in recent years
26:17
Speaker 2: is there's a real reliance upon forensic evidence, particularly DNA.
26:22
Speaker 2: And the crooks know how this works as well. And
26:25
Speaker 2: we are seeing crooks who are thinking, well, I can
26:27
Speaker 2: plant some DNA or do something or other, clean things up.
26:30
Speaker 2: And juries tend to believe DNA implicitly. I think there's
26:34
Speaker 2: got to be a rebalancing, that old-fashioned shoe leather investigation
26:38
Speaker 2: and corroboration of DNA is critical because you might get results,
26:42
Speaker 2: but on appeal, they might get up or, in fact,
26:46
Speaker 2: innocent people have gone to jail.
26:47
Speaker 1: As far as physical and forensic evidence and DNA evidence,
26:52
Speaker 1: I think that it always should be corroborated, always corroborated
26:57
Speaker 1: with other facts and evidence. It's easy to say, oh, well,
27:01
Speaker 1: we'll just charge this guy because we've got a bit
27:03
Speaker 1: of DNA. But, you know, you have to have some
27:05
Speaker 1: corroboration in relation to maybe their whereabouts at the time.
27:11
Speaker 1: They might have been around the area at the time
27:14
Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. So, yeah, I believe that, yeah,
27:17
Speaker 1: it's just solely DNA. Sometimes it's very hard to get
27:22
Speaker 1: up on. But, you know, once again, if it's overwhelming,
27:25
Speaker 1: it's overwhelming.
27:27
Speaker 2: Yeah. You mentioned corroboration. That's really key. I mean, over
27:30
Speaker 2: Messina Helvagas, there was some public comment about the fact
27:33
Speaker 2: that Andrew Fraser, disgraced lawyer, he was in jail with
27:36
Speaker 2: Dupas and he gets the confession while they're gardening and
27:39
Speaker 2: so forth. And people say, oh, well, it all rested
27:41
Speaker 2: on that. But it didn't. There were independent witnesses who
27:47
Speaker 2: saw a man looking like Dupas at Faulkner Cemetery. There
27:51
Speaker 2: was the modus operandi evidence there as well. where she
27:55
Speaker 2: was stabbed, I think, 80 plus times, very similar to
27:57
Speaker 2: the other victims. And the attack was directed around the
28:01
Speaker 2: chest area, which was a signature. So you can put
28:05
Speaker 2: the record straight for those people who doubted, you know,
28:08
Speaker 2: and where the Fraser was just ponying out for the reward.
28:10
Speaker 2: But tell us about how that was corroborated.
28:12
Speaker 1: Well, the style and the injuries to the victims were
28:18
Speaker 1: able to be linked as a coincidence and tendency evidence
28:22
Speaker 1: and evidence. they were very similar a lot of the
28:27
Speaker 1: victims their injuries were very similar and that signature was
28:31
Speaker 1: very similar but there was also other corroborative evidence. Two
28:36
Speaker 1: pests were seen on the weeks leading up to the
28:39
Speaker 1: murder of Messina at the cemetery stalking women. So he
28:43
Speaker 1: was a cemetery stalker and as the director of public
28:47
Speaker 1: prosecutions at the time said Paul Coghlan he said well
28:51
Speaker 1: we need him as a someone who's committed the murder there.
28:55
Speaker 1: And we searched out, myself and Paul Scarlett, searched out
29:00
Speaker 1: corroborative evidence in relation to the Helvargus matter and to pass.
29:05
Speaker 1: And we eventually spoke to Andrew Fraser, who made a
29:08
Speaker 1: statement and who gave evidence at the trial on a
29:11
Speaker 1: number of occasions. And the jury came back with a
29:16
Speaker 1: verdict of guilty. So that speaks for itself.
29:19
Speaker 2: Justice Dunn, on the other side of the coin, though,
29:21
Speaker 2: have you ever Woken up, bowled upright in the night
29:24
Speaker 2: and thought, that bloke we've just banged up for murder
29:26
Speaker 2: may not have done it. Have you ever had that
29:29
Speaker 2: uncomfortable feeling?
29:30
Speaker 1: No. No, never.
29:33
Speaker 2: Never.
29:34
Speaker 1: It's the evidence and the corroboration and all the other
29:38
Speaker 1: things that form the brief of evidence. And, you know,
29:41
Speaker 1: you've got to stand up at the Supreme Court. and
29:45
Speaker 1: you've got to prove your case so no I haven't
29:48
Speaker 1: I haven't thank.
29:50
Speaker 2: God good good I'm sure you'd have heard about it
29:53
Speaker 2: if they were innocent now I think you would have
29:56
Speaker 2: made a fantastic commander of the homicide squad but that
29:58
Speaker 2: wasn't your destiny you ended up moving over to arson
30:01
Speaker 2: and explosives how did that happen So.
30:04
Speaker 1: I did 15 years at the Homicide Squad, and I
30:07
Speaker 1: was there at the Homicide Squad with Luce Rovis, Charlie Bozzina,
30:13
Speaker 1: Ron Niddles, Roland Legg, and we ended up, Phil Swindells
30:17
Speaker 1: at one stage, we ended up saying that we were
30:22
Speaker 1: probably coming to the end of our career at the
30:25
Speaker 1: Homicide Squad. I'd been there 15 years. Others had left.
30:31
Speaker 1: I had indicated... in about 2008, that if there was
30:38
Speaker 1: a task force set up or there was a protracted
30:41
Speaker 1: task force or something that related to death, maybe that
30:44
Speaker 1: I'd be prepared to be involved in it. And very unfortunately,
30:49
Speaker 1: in 2009, we had Black Sat Day and had 173
30:50
Speaker 1: people perished in fires Black Sat Day. And I was
30:59
Speaker 1: contacted by the DI at the time, Steve Clark, who said,
31:03
Speaker 1: would you be prepared to come over and work on
31:06
Speaker 1: the task force? And I was deployed to Marysville with
31:10
Speaker 1: Steve White to investigate the deaths of 38 people up there.
31:16
Speaker 1: We did, and we created quite a number of us together, collaboratively.
31:23
Speaker 1: The interactive brief that went to the Royal Commission, and
31:28
Speaker 1: presented at the Royal Commission and also at the inquest
31:31
Speaker 1: in relation to the 173. And it was at that
31:36
Speaker 1: point towards the end of the task force that I
31:40
Speaker 1: got contacted and they said, would you be interested in
31:42
Speaker 1: heading up the arson and explosive squad? And I said
31:46
Speaker 1: that I would very much so. And I went across there.
31:49
Speaker 1: My mate at the time, Chris Murray, was in charge
31:53
Speaker 1: of that, but he was redeployed to the the Viking
31:57
Speaker 1: Task Force Echo, and then I took over the Arson
32:00
Speaker 1: Explosive Squad there and was there until 2016.
32:06
Speaker 2: So tell me, what qualities did you bring across from
32:08
Speaker 2: homicide to arson and explosives? Because there is the one
32:11
Speaker 2: that's all about the crime scene. What are the kind
32:14
Speaker 2: of jobs that you worked on at Arson and Explosives
32:18
Speaker 2: and what qualities did they demand of you?
32:21
Speaker 1: So having worked at the Phoenix Task Force where we
32:24
Speaker 1: investigated the bushfires, It gave me a pretty good grounding
32:28
Speaker 1: in relation to fire investigation and also involved the investigation
32:35
Speaker 1: of how the people died in the fires. But yeah,
32:37
Speaker 1: I went across there and started to just sort of
32:42
Speaker 1: dip my toe in the water and see what was
32:44
Speaker 1: going to happen. I was new to the theme. I
32:47
Speaker 1: had some sort of background working at the Phoenix Task Force.
32:51
Speaker 1: I tried to jump on as many training courses as
32:54
Speaker 1: I could. I had a very close friend who was
32:58
Speaker 1: the head of the fire and explosive unit at McLeod,
33:02
Speaker 1: John Keller, who passed away earlier this year. So we
33:06
Speaker 1: got on pretty well. I first met him at the
33:09
Speaker 1: Furland bombing. John Furland, August 1998? Correct, in Merlinston. So
33:14
Speaker 1: we'd had a long history together, John and I, and
33:16
Speaker 1: Rachel Noble, his assistant as well. She's now taken over
33:20
Speaker 1: that area. So I sort of gained knowledge pretty quick. I,
33:26
Speaker 1: as I said, attended all the courses I could and
33:30
Speaker 1: skilled myself up in relation to it, surrounded myself with
33:33
Speaker 1: people that were good at their job. And it's very interesting,
33:37
Speaker 1: the arson fire investigation, because you're relying upon doing fire
33:44
Speaker 1: investigation and fire indicators and liaising with the fire services
33:50
Speaker 1: and getting their expertise. And it's the same with explosive incidences.
33:54
Speaker 1: You're relying upon, once again, fire and explosive unit out
33:58
Speaker 1: of McLeod, the forensic area, the army, the bomb response unit,
34:03
Speaker 1: and a whole heap of other people. So it's a
34:06
Speaker 1: baptism of fire. You skill up pretty quickly. And yeah,
34:12
Speaker 1: I enjoyed my time there. It was fantastic.
34:15
Speaker 2: Because we're seeing arson used as a weapon by the
34:18
Speaker 2: underworld now in Melbourne. a huge thing. Did you see
34:22
Speaker 2: it back then or is this a new unfolding thing
34:25
Speaker 2: in your experience?
34:26
Speaker 1: We occasionally saw it being used for revenge but it
34:31
Speaker 1: was after I left that really the tobacco wars developed
34:35
Speaker 1: and the firebombing of all these properties and that was
34:39
Speaker 1: under the leadership of Chris Murray who's the DI at
34:44
Speaker 1: the Arsenal Explosive Unit and done a very good job
34:47
Speaker 1: to resolve it and then the Task Force Lunar I
34:50
Speaker 1: think was formed And that took over the mantle of
34:53
Speaker 1: investigating those sorts of things. But yeah, it was an
34:57
Speaker 1: interesting time and I really enjoyed it. I became a
34:59
Speaker 1: qualified bushfire investigator. I did all the training with the
35:02
Speaker 1: CFA and DECA or DELP or whatever their name was
35:07
Speaker 1: at the time. So yeah, I enjoyed all that sort
35:09
Speaker 1: of stuff and retained all that knowledge to this day.
35:13
Speaker 2: Because as the poem goes, we are a sunburned country,
35:15
Speaker 2: therefore very, very prone to fire and prone to... offenders
35:21
Speaker 2: using fire for their own... What have you learnt about
35:25
Speaker 2: the psychology of firebugs that we have to suffer every summer?
35:29
Speaker 2: We see most, a lot of these fires are deliberately lit.
35:33
Speaker 2: What did you learn about the psychology?
35:34
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because Victoria is probably one of the
35:38
Speaker 1: worst places on the planet for bushfires because of our topography,
35:42
Speaker 1: fuel load and our weather. And we've had some horrendous
35:45
Speaker 1: fires over our history. A lot of them lightning strikes
35:49
Speaker 1: and from other means, but some of them deliberately lit. Well,
35:53
Speaker 1: you know, you can't just, you've got to keep your
35:55
Speaker 1: mind open because we've had some offenders that have been,
35:58
Speaker 1: you know, young males that have been males in their 30s.
36:03
Speaker 1: And we've charged females as well, which you wouldn't think
36:07
Speaker 1: in their 40s. So you've got to keep an open mind.
36:10
Speaker 1: The psychology is some of them do it because of,
36:14
Speaker 1: I don't know why they do it. because they've got
36:17
Speaker 1: some sort of penance to light lighting fires. Some do
36:22
Speaker 1: it for physical, I don't know, gratification. Some do it
36:27
Speaker 1: for financial. So, yeah, it's interesting. I say don't get
36:33
Speaker 1: tunnel vision because you never know who they're going to be.
36:36
Speaker 2: Well, correct, because we have seen in the past where
36:39
Speaker 2: people who've lit the fires then pitch up as volunteers
36:42
Speaker 2: to put them out.
36:43
Speaker 1: Yep. And that's rare-ish information. Rare-ish as far as volunteer firefighters.
36:50
Speaker 1: They are a fantastic organisation in this state and they
36:53
Speaker 1: carry the brunt of fire suppression, bushfire. It occasionally happens,
36:59
Speaker 1: but look, it's a rarity.
37:02
Speaker 2: Now, the case that crosses over for you from homicide
37:05
Speaker 2: to arson was the 1998 car bombing of John Furlan.
37:11
Speaker 2: That one's still unsolved. I think that's one that probably
37:14
Speaker 2: keeps you awake at night a little bit. Yeah, I agree.
37:17
Speaker 1: I remember doing a TV program with you.
37:20
Speaker 2: The Hunters, that's right.
37:21
Speaker 1: On that. But yes, it does. I would like a
37:24
Speaker 1: resolution to that one for sure. You know, that and
37:28
Speaker 1: the David Beer matter. So yeah, I would like to
37:31
Speaker 1: see it come to some sort of resolution. Look, I
37:34
Speaker 1: still believe the matter is being looked at as well.
37:37
Speaker 2: Correct. Million dollar reward out there for anyone who knows
37:40
Speaker 2: anything about it. I mean, you had this tantalizing moment where...
37:45
Speaker 2: a fellow called Philip Matthews pitched up and said, I
37:47
Speaker 2: did it.
37:49
Speaker 1: Yep, absolutely. Dave Snare and I spoke to him, but
37:52
Speaker 1: it really, there was something NQR about it, something NQR
37:57
Speaker 1: about it. And then unfortunately, within a period of time,
38:02
Speaker 1: he took his own life.
38:03
Speaker 2: That's right, leaving the whole thing open, but there seemed
38:06
Speaker 2: to be enough detailed inside knowledge to suggest that he'd
38:10
Speaker 2: been a part of it somehow, but exactly how, you
38:13
Speaker 2: weren't sure.
38:14
Speaker 1: I'd agree with that. I'd agree with that, but I
38:16
Speaker 1: can't put my finger on it either. There was a
38:20
Speaker 1: lot of questions left unanswered in relation to Phil Matthews.
38:23
Speaker 2: Right. And there are other witnesses who are still out there.
38:27
Speaker 2: What would you say to them if they're listening? There
38:29
Speaker 2: is a reward still out there. And even though, you know,
38:33
Speaker 2: the main suspect, Domenico Italiano, small pie mafia boss, seemed
38:37
Speaker 2: to have some part of it. He died. Philip Matthews
38:40
Speaker 2: is dead. There are still loved ones who want answers.
38:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, it'd be really great if someone came forward with
38:48
Speaker 1: that information that they've kept for all this time in
38:53
Speaker 1: relation to something that they know about the motive and
38:56
Speaker 1: who was involved. It'd be really good if they come forward.
38:59
Speaker 1: Once again, you said there's a reward being offered by
39:02
Speaker 1: Victoria Police in relation to that matter.
39:05
Speaker 2: Would you be eligible for it if you were an
39:07
Speaker 2: employee still?
39:08
Speaker 1: I am. You're a good employee still. I know. No. Yeah. Yeah.
39:14
Speaker 2: With Matthew's confession, he made a confession. How often do
39:17
Speaker 2: you see people who just want to be the center
39:20
Speaker 2: of attention by making confessions like that? Do you have
39:22
Speaker 2: to treat it with suspicion?
39:24
Speaker 1: Yes, you do. I've had a couple over the years,
39:27
Speaker 1: over my career, a couple for some abstract reason. They
39:31
Speaker 1: want to get involved and at the end of the day,
39:33
Speaker 1: they're not going to get involved. not involved and they're
39:36
Speaker 1: just making it up. Phil Matthews, yes, it's a strange one. Anyway,
39:43
Speaker 1: hopefully it'll resolve itself in the future.
39:45
Speaker 2: And apparently there's still bomb-making materials, other kit that are
39:50
Speaker 2: buried somewhere out in the bush, which would probably solve...
39:54
Speaker 2: the case if they were to be located.
39:56
Speaker 1: Probably if someone knows information about any of that stuff
39:59
Speaker 1: it'd be fantastic to hear from them.
40:00
Speaker 2: Indeed indeed so you came out of retirement more or
40:04
Speaker 2: less to help us with that job but you're not
40:06
Speaker 2: really retired because you're working out at the police academy
40:09
Speaker 2: what's your role there now so.
40:11
Speaker 1: I uh had a couple of years off and i
40:14
Speaker 1: got a phone call uh to see whether i wanted
40:17
Speaker 1: to go back as an instructor at the detective training
40:20
Speaker 1: school at the academy and um I'd had a couple
40:25
Speaker 1: of years off and I did all the things that
40:26
Speaker 1: you travel and all the other bits and pieces that
40:29
Speaker 1: you do around the house and the garden and the
40:32
Speaker 1: grandkids and all that sort of stuff. And then the
40:35
Speaker 1: job offer came up and yeah, I accepted it. And
40:39
Speaker 1: Detective Training School is part of a few things that
40:42
Speaker 1: I do. And I enjoy it. I'm only part time
40:45
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's very satisfying. I do instruct in fire, investigation,
40:52
Speaker 1: explosion investigation, homicide, investigation management and other things out there.
40:58
Speaker 1: But it's only part-time, but I really enjoy it. I
41:01
Speaker 1: do enjoy still the camaraderie and the mateship and the
41:04
Speaker 1: esprit de corps out there. And it's a great office
41:06
Speaker 1: to work at.
41:08
Speaker 2: They're actually rehiring retired officers now to come and work stations.
41:12
Speaker 2: Would you be up for that as well?
41:13
Speaker 1: No, thank you. I think the detective training school is
41:16
Speaker 1: fantastic and I'm staying there. Yes, they're hiring reservists to
41:20
Speaker 1: do a lot of the front counter stuff and behind
41:24
Speaker 1: the scenes paperwork and administration. That's a great initiative by
41:29
Speaker 1: the new chief, Mike Bush, and I think it's really good.
41:32
Speaker 1: I'm quite stunned about how many want to come back.
41:36
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I've had about a dozen, I've asked, and a
41:38
Speaker 2: little bit of a straw poll. They all said, yeah,
41:40
Speaker 2: I wouldn't mind that. Separation is difficult. Breaking up is
41:44
Speaker 2: hard to do.
41:46
Speaker 1: Yes, very much so. There is a brotherhood, a sisterhood,
41:50
Speaker 1: the esprit de corps. So you do miss it. And yeah,
41:55
Speaker 1: I still get a little bit of it.
41:57
Speaker 2: So that's good.
41:58
Speaker 1: And yeah, it works out pretty well. Yes.
42:01
Speaker 2: Not content with terrorizing people at Glen Waverley. You're also
42:04
Speaker 2: up in Cambodia as well. What's the job up there?
42:08
Speaker 1: So I was approached back in the late 2019, I think,
42:13
Speaker 1: by the Child Protection Unit in Cambodia, and who, you know,
42:20
Speaker 1: look after the welfare and investigate, in conjunction with the
42:24
Speaker 1: Cambodian National Police, violent crimes against children, rapes and murders.
42:29
Speaker 1: So since then, I've travelled over there fairly frequently to
42:34
Speaker 1: assist in training the Cambodian National Police. In relation to
42:40
Speaker 1: crime scene management, exhibit taking, exhibit management, interviewing, statement taking,
42:46
Speaker 1: and we'll give them a lot of case studies. We
42:48
Speaker 1: talk about DNA because they're getting a DNA lab. We
42:53
Speaker 1: talk about all the other avenues of inquiry with them
42:56
Speaker 1: and we're training them up. And can I tell you
42:59
Speaker 1: that I have been on a number of child homicides
43:01
Speaker 1: over there. And when you do get to the scenes
43:03
Speaker 1: over there, they are learning and they're doing a great
43:06
Speaker 1: job because A recent one I did earlier in the
43:09
Speaker 1: year over there, we turned up to the scene and
43:11
Speaker 1: it was outstanding. Their crime scene preservation and their cordon
43:15
Speaker 1: and containing of the area was really, really good. So
43:18
Speaker 1: obviously what we're teaching them, they're retaining and putting into practice.
43:24
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's a curriculum that's involved and you're working
43:26
Speaker 2: through that with them. But there's also those sort of
43:28
Speaker 2: homespun pieces of wisdom that you pick up in that
43:31
Speaker 2: generational thing of working with great detectives going back. And
43:35
Speaker 2: is there any sort of thing that you'd like to
43:36
Speaker 2: impart to them?
43:37
Speaker 1: Well, I'd just say that the crime scene is the
43:40
Speaker 1: most important thing that they've got to preserve because that's
43:43
Speaker 1: where the evidence is and that's where you get the
43:45
Speaker 1: start in the investigation and avenues of inquiry. You know, recently,
43:50
Speaker 1: as I said, we had one over there and within
43:53
Speaker 1: a couple of hours, they had the crook with the
43:57
Speaker 1: child on CCTV and it moved fairly rapidly after that
44:03
Speaker 1: before they got an arrest. So, yeah, no, they're... Mainly
44:07
Speaker 1: just being very thorough, mainly making sure that you lock
44:10
Speaker 1: down the crime scene and, you know, take things for granted.
44:14
Speaker 1: You know, follow every rabbit down every hole.
44:17
Speaker 2: Now, policing, particularly homicide, is a contact sport. A lot
44:21
Speaker 2: of brutal scenes, a lot of terrible things that do
44:24
Speaker 2: lead people to have problems. I know you pretty well, Jeff.
44:27
Speaker 2: I don't think you have that. to any great degree,
44:30
Speaker 2: maybe you can correct me here, but was there something
44:33
Speaker 2: about your mental makeup or the way you managed yourself
44:35
Speaker 2: through these periods of all these terrible crimes that you
44:40
Speaker 2: seem to have been able to sort of take it
44:42
Speaker 2: off like a suit?
44:43
Speaker 1: Keep my sanity. And I've spoken to guys at work,
44:47
Speaker 1: a couple at work in relation to this, that were
44:49
Speaker 1: very similar ilk as far as reflecting on what we've
44:53
Speaker 1: seen and how it affects us. I seem to compartmentalize things.
44:59
Speaker 1: And I'm able to put them in a box and
45:00
Speaker 1: put a lid on it and don't think about him anymore.
45:04
Speaker 1: So I'll do an investigation. As I said, over in Cambodia,
45:09
Speaker 1: we're doing homicide investigations over there. I reviewed a substantial
45:14
Speaker 1: amount of cold case homicide files going back 15 years
45:19
Speaker 1: with the associated photos and stories that went with them.
45:25
Speaker 1: And I'm able to sort of view it in a
45:27
Speaker 1: way that, you know, it's evidence and it's a job
45:30
Speaker 1: and it's the thrill of the chase and the resolution
45:33
Speaker 1: to the family and bringing the crook to justice. And
45:37
Speaker 1: I just seem to be able to, once I do
45:41
Speaker 1: it and put the lid back on the box, I
45:42
Speaker 1: don't really think about it. And I'm probably lucky that
45:45
Speaker 1: way because I know there are coppers that have problems,
45:48
Speaker 1: but no, it doesn't really worry me. And people say, really?
45:53
Speaker 1: And I say, yeah, it doesn't really worry me.
45:55
Speaker 2: Because policing will change you. There's no doubt about that.
45:58
Speaker 2: And I think anybody who goes into the job thinking
46:01
Speaker 2: that it's just a job, this is a calling and
46:04
Speaker 2: you're still called to public service even now.
46:09
Speaker 1: I'm probably institutionalized, but because I've been with them for many, many,
46:14
Speaker 1: many decades and then left and came back. But yeah,
46:18
Speaker 1: it's been a great job and I don't regret not
46:21
Speaker 1: taking up the plumber's apprenticeship or the army, but I've
46:24
Speaker 1: enjoyed every moment of Victoria Police and I love the
46:27
Speaker 1: job still, that's why I came back. But, you know,
46:29
Speaker 1: to put a little bit into humanity overseas in an
46:33
Speaker 1: area that's, you know, that asks for our assistance and
46:36
Speaker 1: we supply our expertise to them, it's satisfying and it
46:41
Speaker 1: really is satisfying. And to bring criminals to justice over
46:46
Speaker 1: there is satisfying as well, but also to train the coppers.
46:49
Speaker 1: up over there. And they're like sponges. They're very, very
46:53
Speaker 1: keen and eager to learn.
46:55
Speaker 2: I wonder whether when you really stop, retire from all this,
46:58
Speaker 2: what happens then? What do you do with the box?
47:00
Speaker 2: You'll still have it.
47:01
Speaker 1: I'll have it, but I've got some supportive people around me.
47:05
Speaker 1: I've got some really good mates and I've got some
47:07
Speaker 1: good mates in the job and outside the job. And
47:10
Speaker 1: I don't know, you just relate to them. Other outside hobbies,
47:15
Speaker 1: done a little bit of marshalling at the Grand Prix
47:17
Speaker 1: and You know, I enjoy, you know, other things. So, yeah,
47:21
Speaker 1: it doesn't, when I finally stop, I don't know, I'll
47:24
Speaker 1: probably just bloody fall over. I don't know. I don't know.
47:29
Speaker 2: You're also a great storyteller. I can see you on
47:31
Speaker 2: this side of the desk doing your own podcast or
47:33
Speaker 2: telling stories.
47:34
Speaker 1: No, there's been no books and there won't be any movies.
47:37
Speaker 1: All right, no books, no movies, no podcast. I'm happy
47:40
Speaker 1: enough for you to do it, mate.
47:41
Speaker 2: I'll get back to you later on that one. It's fantastic. Listen,
47:43
Speaker 2: thanks for your time today, Geoff.
47:44
Speaker 1: That's all right. Absolute pleasure.
47:46
Speaker 2: Thanks, Adam. That's Geoff Mark, former homicide detective. Fantastic career.
47:49
Speaker 2: Thank you for your service indeed. Some fantastic stuff there.
47:52
Speaker 2: If you want to report a crime, please call Crime
47:54
Speaker 2: Stoppers 1-800-333-000. If you want to get in touch with me,
47:58
Speaker 2: you can also write me on adamshandwriter at gmail.com. You
48:02
Speaker 2: can also join our little crime community on Facebook. You
48:05
Speaker 2: can look up my profile there and join the community.
48:08
Speaker 2: This has been Adam Shand for Real Crime. Thank you
48:09
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48:22
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