Latest / Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson / Liberty, Lightness & the Long Game: From Parelli to the Beach | David Lichman | LFRF 53

Transcript

Liberty, Lightness & the Long Game: From Parelli to the Beach | David Lichman | LFRF 53 · Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

0:00
Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
0:01
Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of
0:06
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
0:08
Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our
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0:34
So now let's jump in.
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Welcome back.
0:37
I've got David Litchman here.
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If you are somebody who has been involved around the sort of natural horsemanship
0:43
world over the last ooh, few decades you have almost certainly come across David
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Litchman either by name or in person.
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His work with horses sort of precedes him, so I don't want to put words in his mouth.
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Let's just say he, he's helped blaze the trail for looking at how we work,
1:08
all of us as horse people in a more compassionate, more cooperative way.
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And a lot of things that we take for granted now, I think in the horse world,
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were things he couldn't take for granted back when David was getting going.
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And we owe a sort of bit of a debt of gratitude to people like him for
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having sort of shifted the paradigm.
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So I'm not going to, yeah, I'm gonna let David tell us about
1:32
what he does and how he's done it.
1:34
So seat belts on.
1:35
This is gonna be a good ride.
1:36
David, thank you for coming on the show and tell us who
1:41
are you and what do you do?
1:44
David Lichman: Oh boy.
1:46
Well, first of all, I'm a greater admirer of you.
1:49
Rupert Isaacson: That's kind.
1:49
David Lichman: And you know, when I when I read your book I was just absolutely
1:55
blown away because I'd had experiences with autistic kids in, in equine
1:59
therapy at the barn where I was working.
2:01
Every Thursday or something, they would do something and I saw this kid who was
2:06
non-communicative and they put him on the back of a horse and immediately he
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started to look around and they would toss him a ball and he could catch it.
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And they got him doing stuff like picking out the horse's feet
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and doing stuff with the horse.
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And they reported back after a couple of weeks, he, if somebody came to their
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house he would grab a screwdriver and pick up their feet and pick up the
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Rupert Isaacson: Really?
2:32
David Lichman: Yeah.
2:33
Rupert Isaacson: That's beautiful.
2:34
David Lichman: You know, so reading your book I'm, I'm not,
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I admit I'm not much of a reader.
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My reader, my wife reads like the book week and my sister used to read a book
2:42
a day, but I'm not much of a reader.
2:44
But I read your book and I was really, really impressed, not only
2:48
with the content, but with the imagery, the way that you described.
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The feelings around what was going on was really, really moving to me.
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And when I saw the movie that you made after that I realized that, you know,
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you, you don't get all that behind the scenes thinking that you can,
3:07
you put it in the book because you just say, here's what was happening.
3:09
But you don't, you don't, in the movie, you just see what's happening.
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You don't get the thoughts inside.
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So I missed that, but what I didn't realize was how intense the, the
3:20
screaming and the, you know, just the, the emotions going on that, that didn't,
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that came through much clearer when you could actually hear it and see it
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Rupert Isaacson: when you had to suffer along with us.
3:31
Yes.
3:32
David Lichman: Yeah.
3:32
Yeah.
3:32
So the, so the, you know, and the brown alerts, and I mean this, the whole
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thing for me was the combination of the two was eye-opening experience.
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And then of course, you know, years later having met Rowan was was remarkable.
3:45
It's remarkable.
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He must be in his twenties now.
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Rupert Isaacson: He is 25 now.
3:50
Yeah.
3:50
And he's doing great.
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He he spends his time between Texas and Europe.
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He, this is sort of how he's doing.
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He sold his house last year.
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He has his own car.
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He has a couple of volunteer jobs that he does.
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He helps me a lot with trainings explaining autism from the inside really.
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And helping guide parents in.
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How to approach their kids and what it's like to go from that kind of,
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he just, he describes it as a fog, this nonverbal fog into this greater
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clarity of cognition and how this can play out, how this can happen.
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So he's very articulate this way and he still rides.
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You know, so whenever he's with me, he's, I've got a horse for him
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and he, he he gets up and he rides.
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So it's,
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when I look at him, you know, there, there was this, there was this day, I
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remember when he was at his most severe and I had this really irrational thought,
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but I, I had this picture of coming to an airport and being picked up by this
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handsome young man, handsome, confident young man getting in his car and sort
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of driving off and that being my son.
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And I had this vi, this vision clear as day when he was at the height of
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his, you know, most severe autism.
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And I remember thinking, that is so unrealistic, but
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I wanna go in that direction.
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Well, about 2021, I flew into Austin, Texas and Rowan is there and he picks
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me up in his car and we, we walk out to the carpark where he is parked and.
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He's carrying my bag and he throws my bag in the boot and he hops in the driver's
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seat and I hop in the passenger seat and I realize, oh my God, it happened.
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It happened.
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Wow.
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I, I remember I'd forgotten that vision that I had, so it made me realize, yes,
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you must always hold onto those visions.
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And so that, that's where he's at.
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And it's been quite a long road obviously.
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But yeah, so, and you, so for the viewers and the listeners to this,
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'cause this will be on YouTube as well as on the sort of podcast platforms.
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David Litchman, rip very, very kindly came and did a fundraiser clinic and
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demo for us back in Texas back in 2012.
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I think.
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It really kind of helped put us on the map a little bit because David was a,
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a bit of a celeb and we were kind of unknown and it gave us a shot in the arm.
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So I was always very grateful for that, David.
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Yeah,
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David Lichman: you're most welcome.
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It was more for me than for you actually.
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It was really great.
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Rupert Isaacson: So listen tell us about your career with horses.
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How did it start?
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Why did it start?
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Why have you taken the particular approach that you have?
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And where has it led you?
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David Lichman: Yeah, that's okay.
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But three hours.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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Guess.
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David Lichman: I think this is every, everything starts from inside, I think.
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And you know, from, from the first memories I have, there were horses.
7:03
Not on television basically mostly, but if there was a pony ride at a fair or a trail
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ride, when we went camping, I was there.
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I was in a thousand percent.
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Rupert Isaacson: And where was this, where did, where were you?
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David Lichman: I was, I grew up in New England.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
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David Lichman: Which part of, I, I grew up north of Boston,
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Marblehead, Massachusetts.
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I, I recollect now that there were I had seen hoof prints on the sand.
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The beach was very close to our house, and I had seen that, but
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I had never seen any horses.
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And and fast forward years later, when I did the tour that I ended
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up in Texas was my last stop.
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I, the, my original goal for that tour was to take my horses all the
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way to that beach and put their ho prints stand there, like the
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prodigal sun returning or something.
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And it, and it was a, it was a tremendous journey.
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I mean, in the second stop, one of my horses kicked the other one
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in the head and broke his skull.
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And
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Rupert Isaacson: a Yeah, yeah,
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David Lichman: yeah.
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I mean, it was just fractured.
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He, he didn't have any, they were gonna, you know, open him up and pull
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all stuff out and, and I said, what.
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You know, does he need that?
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And they said, no, but it'll be, he'll have a dent.
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I said, thank you.
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I'm fine with the dent.
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You don't have to open him up.
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You know, so he had a superhero mask that he had to wear and, you
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know, he did cameos on the, on the tour stop Crazy for two tour stops.
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And then he was back, interestingly enough that the very next stop
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we were, when he came out of the hospital the horse that kicked him,
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he, I had to keep him in a stall.
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'cause they didn't want him running around and creating a lot of air movement.
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And, and he had his head out of the stall and the horse that kicked
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him in the head was outside the stall with his head in there.
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And they were grooming each other and it's like,
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Rupert Isaacson: oh,
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David Lichman: this is really, really something special.
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But anyway, so the, we, we ended up getting to put those footprints on the
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beach and, and and we made a video with a guy by the name of Rob Foley, who
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was a veteran, who was on the verge of killing himself, who was saved by horses.
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Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
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David Lichman: And he met me on the beach there.
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That was not planned.
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My plan was just make the hook prints, make a nice little pic, pretty picture.
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And it was, that was also moving.
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I had, I put him up on a horse and and he and I, 'cause I thought he
9:13
had been riding and, and he was a, he's a what do you call it?
9:17
A Navy Seal.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
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David Lichman: You know that he's gonna get on this horse.
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It's no big deal.
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Right?
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And, and he wa he is, he was not.
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He was, he had, you know, brain damage.
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He was lost his balance.
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And, and I got him on the horse and I had him just, you know, put
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his head back and his eyes closed.
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And I have photographs of this.
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It's so moving to me.
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This thing that I had not planned at all.
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He just called me outta the blue and said, oh, you know, I saw
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your video of horses on the beach.
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I'd love to do that someday.
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Where are you?
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I'm in Maine.
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Okay, can you be there in September?
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So all these fascinating things happened on this tour that were not by design.
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And then right before I came to Texas, I was in Tennessee doing
9:59
a benefit for kids in school who did, there was not enough money for
10:04
their, you know, school supplies.
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And the teachers were digging in their own pockets to come up.
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So I said, well, we can raise money for these kids in the school and,
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and we go to to Tennessee to do this.
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And I said, oh, the kid's gonna come to the show in the evening.
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Oh, they can't go.
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Most of their parents don't have cars.
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I said, well, why don't we get a bus?
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Let's in a bus, bring 'em.
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I want them to see this.
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And they, no, you need hand, we need permission.
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And the bus has to be reserved three months in advance, and
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then you have to hire a driver.
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It's all that stuff.
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So I said, okay, well why don't we just do a little show for them at the school?
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Rupert Isaacson: Oh, that's cool.
10:38
Yeah.
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Great
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David Lichman: idea.
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So we go over there in the afternoon, my son and I, and we set up on
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the, like a playground area, and I don't, playground grass is like
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tough and the ground is super hard.
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And I set up a little round pen and, and and, and they were supposed to bring
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up class by class, you know, for five minutes, 10 minutes to look at the horses.
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And they decided to bring all the kids from kindergarten to sixth grade.
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So I, you know, I'm trying to find something that'll work for
11:07
them and keep their interests.
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But the, mostly the younger ones were only interested in the fact
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that the horse pooped, right?
11:13
Rupert Isaacson: Yep.
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Naturally.
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David Lichman: So I pick up the poop in my hand and I say, you know, why
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is this poop different than your poop?
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You know, why is it that, you know, this doesn't stink?
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And, you know, you know, course he grass, I'm trying to, so I was not, but I was not
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making a great impression with this, this group of, there were 600 kids, by the way.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
11:31
David Lichman: Around this tiny round pen.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
11:33
David Lichman: So I said to my son, go get the balloon set up for the bow and arrow.
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Shoot.
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I'm gonna do a bear bag and bri list bow and arrow balloon shoot for these
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guys that'll, that'll impress 'em.
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My son's going, this is a bad idea.
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You know, arrow with all these kids around.
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I said, no, there's, there's one, there's only one kid over by where
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the target will be, who was a a severely handicapped kid in a wagon.
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And they, I said, just roll the wagon around the other side.
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It would be fine.
11:58
It'd be fine.
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And it was fine.
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I, I did the, you know, put the music on and shut the look.
12:04
Great if everybody cheered.
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And then my dismount is, I throw a leg up over the neck and slide down.
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This is, you know, we've been warned, don't do this, but it's
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the coolest way to get off.
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And it's, it's the easiest way actually.
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But I didn't realize in Tennessee it was like 95 degrees, 95% humidity.
12:27
My pants had got so much sweat that my, I went like this.
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My leg didn't come.
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And I went, I landed on my arm and broke to ribs.
12:36
Hi.
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So when I was
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Rupert Isaacson: one, 600 kids.
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Oh yeah.
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David Lichman: When I was at your event, I had two broken ribs.
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Rupert Isaacson: Oh man.
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You were stoic.
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Okay.
12:45
Well, I had no idea that you were suffering like that when
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you came and did the gig for us.
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And
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David Lichman: yeah.
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Rupert Isaacson: You were, you know, that was heroic.
12:53
But listen let's get back.
12:54
Yeah.
12:54
So to you and your, yeah, so I take it you didn't come from a horsey family, right?
12:59
David Lichman: No.
12:59
Right.
13:00
So, you, we started back in Marblehead with the f footprints in the sand.
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And then I, you know, any chance I had, I would go, go to horses in junior high.
13:08
Why,
13:09
Rupert Isaacson: where was this coming from, do you think?
13:10
Was there some genetic, did you have like some great aunt or someone who was
13:14
David Lichman: No.
13:15
Well, back
13:15
Rupert Isaacson: in the
13:16
David Lichman: family, I can tell you that my, my great grandfather in
13:18
Germany was retraining military horses to pull plows for farmers in the, you
13:23
know, the end of the 19th century.
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Okay.
13:25
So I, I only found this out later.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
13:27
So that is a genetic line for you.
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David Lichman: It's genetic.
13:30
Yes.
13:31
And also I think we share the same name, actually, I think
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is, I'm named after that.
13:35
But so, you know, that's the, you know, the physical piece,
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I, the emotional piece, I don't, it, it's, it's in, it's inside.
13:44
The minute I saw the Lone Ranger, you know
13:47
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
13:47
David Lichman: Io Silverstein, it was just, it grabbed me.
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Years later I went to the the Navajo Nation with my friend George
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Hardeen, who is like great grand nephew of the, of Houdini, the
13:59
Great Harden or something like that.
14:01
Okay.
14:01
He was running the newspaper for the Navajo Nation, and he introduced
14:05
me to a guy by the name of Nevy who was the, the, the healer leader
14:11
of the Navajo Nation at the time.
14:13
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
14:13
Guy, what, what, what year is this?
14:15
When are we,
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David Lichman: oh, that had to have been the nineties.
14:17
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
14:18
David Lichman: And here's this guy, and he's, you know, he's, he's bent
14:22
over like a question mark, right?
14:23
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
14:24
David Lichman: You know, and then we find out he started over like 3000 horses.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay?
14:30
David Lichman: And and George says, you know, would you like to have a blessing?
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I said, yeah, you know, they have some corn pollen, I think and mm-hmm.
14:37
Things that they're doing.
14:38
And I said, yeah.
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And he said, well, he wants to talk to you before he'll give you a blessing.
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He said, okay.
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He asked me, he says, horses, huh?
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I said, yeah, why?
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Oh boy.
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I said, well, I think it's something inside me that I could not ignore.
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I had to, I, I could not, I had to pay attention to this feeling inside
15:03
that the horses brought to me.
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And he looked at me and he went, good.
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Then he, we did the blessing ceremony with the corn pollen and
15:11
off we went riding in the desert.
15:14
So it's in there, and I, I can't explain that.
15:18
You know, pat Perelli, you mentioned him.
15:20
He, you know, he makes light of it.
15:22
He said, there's horse people and there's people, there's the other kind, right?
15:25
Mm-hmm.
15:25
This is part of his pattern.
15:26
But, but it's true.
15:28
I think it's in there and you can't, you can't let it go.
15:32
I think if you do let it go, it'll come back and you'll, it'll, it'll
15:35
bounce on you with some point.
15:37
You'll see one.
15:37
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
15:37
It'll, it'll, it'll, it'll, yeah.
15:39
Surface.
15:39
David Lichman: It
15:39
Rupert Isaacson: doesn't let you go.
15:40
Yeah.
15:41
But, okay.
15:42
So you, you, you, you were enamored of horses.
15:44
How did you get involved in
15:48
becoming a professional horseman?
15:50
What was the
15:51
David Lichman: Well, there's a very long path, which I won't bore you
15:53
with the whole thing, but I took some riding lessons when, when I found out
15:57
in college that you, instead of doing pe you could do horseback riding.
16:00
So I went up to Gloucester, Massachusetts, took these riding lessons, and
16:03
they made me post without stirrups and I couldn't walk for two weeks.
16:08
And, you know, it's like,
16:09
Rupert Isaacson: almost stop.
16:10
Yeah.
16:12
David Lichman: You know, here, here's a horse, you know, you're gonna
16:14
just jump him over this little jump.
16:16
And the horse would refuse and cry was over on the other side.
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He said, this, this is not so much fun, but but beat doing PE in college.
16:23
So
16:24
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
16:24
David Lichman: I did that and went to a couple of horse
16:26
camps, you know, but Really,
16:27
Rupert Isaacson: and what was stunning at college, out of interest?
16:29
David Lichman: I studied, at that time I was in computer science,
16:32
and then I switched to music.
16:34
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
16:35
David Lichman: And then I, I went to for a short time, I went to
16:38
Berkeley College of Music, which is now a very famous jazz school.
16:41
Yeah.
16:41
And then and then I, after three semesters in there, I, I hit the road and I
16:46
traveled playing music for a dozen years.
16:50
And I ended up in California.
16:52
And then in California I I got I got a degree, I finished a degree
16:57
in computer science while I was playing music to support myself.
17:02
And I got married to a veterinarian.
17:04
And all of a sudden the, the we, we had with this thing dink, remember
17:10
this thing, dink dual income, no kids.
17:15
And we looked at each other and I said, you know, I always wanted to have a horse.
17:17
And she goes, me too.
17:19
And we hadn't even discussed this.
17:20
Rupert Isaacson: How old were you at this time?
17:22
David Lichman: 30.
17:23
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
17:24
David Lichman: 30 ish.
17:25
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
17:25
David Lichman: And and so we got our first horses and we really didn't know anything.
17:29
I was trying to, and this
17:30
Rupert Isaacson: was out in California?
17:31
David Lichman: Yeah.
17:32
Where I was in Sacramento.
17:34
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
17:35
David Lichman: I was trying to remember, you know, like,
17:36
how do you, how do you clean?
17:37
I got had this horse and I had a hoof pick.
17:39
And how do you clean it?
17:41
I was trying to remember, oh, we hold it this way.
17:43
And, you know, I was trying to, all this memories were not coming back so quickly,
17:47
but, you know, we had horses and we started doing stuff with horses and and
17:51
I, I was working as a contractor for IBM, and I found myself staring at the pictures
18:00
of the horses on the wall of my cubicle more than I was looking at the screen and
18:05
I said, I gotta do something different.
18:07
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
18:08
David Lichman: And at the time I had, I had won a World Grand Championship
18:12
in Tennessee with my horse and
18:16
Rupert Isaacson: doing what?
18:17
David Lichman: It's just pleasure class, you know, it was a Tennessee Western
18:20
Rupert Isaacson: pleasure,
18:22
David Lichman: English pleasure, I think.
18:23
Yeah,
18:23
Rupert Isaacson: English.
18:24
I love how they call these things world.
18:26
And then they, they happen in like these parts of the us
18:29
David Lichman: Well there aren't many Tennessee walking and horses
18:31
in other parts of the world.
18:33
There are now, but there weren't then.
18:34
Yes.
18:35
But yeah, it was a big deal.
18:36
17,000 people.
18:38
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
18:38
David Lichman: 17,000 people watching me go around.
18:40
Rupert Isaacson: But hold, see that's a big, that's a big jump to go from saying,
18:43
well, you know, my wife and I want to get, get a horse and then of course, and then
18:46
boom, I'm winning this big competition.
18:48
David Lichman: Well it was, you know, it was like eight years of, you know,
18:51
we start with the little shows and I'm skipping all this stuff because it, you
18:55
Rupert Isaacson: know, and why Tennessee Walkers?
18:58
David Lichman: Well, that's a good question.
18:59
So I remembered when I was a kid at one of these two week riding camps, they
19:05
had a horse there that was so smooth.
19:07
And, and what I know now is it was just really smooth Western jog.
19:11
It was like just so much fun to ride and tip off into a loop and whatnot.
19:15
So we went looking for that, and I found this one Arabian,
19:19
believe it or not, who had that.
19:21
Okay.
19:22
And I said, well, this is, I gotta have it.
19:24
And my wife took one look at it was gray and he had massive
19:27
melanomas under his tail and she says, you're not buying this horse.
19:30
I said, so people started telling me when I said I can't find another one
19:34
that I didn't know to look for Quarter horses that were Western pleasure horse.
19:37
I didn't know.
19:38
So, somebody said, you, you want Smooth Drive Tennessee Walken horse.
19:42
So.
19:43
Then we got hooked with that and I, I, I wrote a book and made
19:46
some videos about how to train walking horses in a natural way.
19:50
Because it, the tendency in the industry has been the opposite
19:54
and, and quite cruel in some cases.
19:56
So I, again,
19:58
Rupert Isaacson: that's a big jump to say, oh, and then I, I wrote
20:00
a book and don't end up writing a book and getting a book published
20:04
unless you are good and people come.
20:06
I self You're good.
20:07
David Lichman: I self-published.
20:08
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
20:09
Alright.
20:09
David Lichman: Yeah, I mean, I sold a lot of them.
20:12
What I found was that especially, so I'd already been doing some
20:15
pelli with horses at this point.
20:17
Okay, so
20:17
Rupert Isaacson: you found, found the Pelli method at that point?
20:19
David Lichman: Yeah.
20:20
I mean, we could talk about that some let's back up to that.
20:23
So, we'll, okay.
20:25
As I as I was watching horses and learning about horses during this
20:30
period of eight years, I went to the state fair and I saw Ray Hunt.
20:35
Mm-hmm.
20:35
And at the state fair in California four o'clock in the
20:38
afternoon, they did a cold start.
20:40
It's like 106 degrees in August.
20:42
And, and they gave him 30 minutes to get on a un started cold and Right.
20:46
They did 18 days in a row, 18 different Colts.
20:50
So I watching Ray Hunt and he and I, and sitting in a group of tour,
20:54
you know, normal citizens, they not horse people, most of them just
21:00
watching this guy, and here, here he, I'm watching him and he goes.
21:04
Pretty quick hair.
21:05
He is gonna, you're gonna see him flick his ear over here
21:08
towards me or pretty quick hair.
21:10
He is gonna flick that fly off his leg or something, you know?
21:13
And all of a sudden, you know, in two minutes there was, is
21:16
following around like a puppy dog.
21:17
And I'm going, nobody sees the miracle that's going on here.
21:21
You know, all the wrestling people are doing with horses.
21:24
This is unbelievable.
21:27
So, and he, I, I don't know.
21:29
Did you ever get a chance to meet him?
21:31
No,
21:32
Rupert Isaacson: never did, never did.
21:33
David Lichman: I mean, he's, he was an ornery old co I mean, he, they always
21:36
Rupert Isaacson: are these people.
21:37
Yeah.
21:38
David Lichman: But, but he had a love for these horses and he was, he was
21:41
pretty well crippled at this point.
21:43
So day one, he started that horse.
21:45
Day two, he started the next horse from the horse that he started the day before.
21:50
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
21:52
David Lichman: Okay.
21:53
This is the kind of miracle worker he was.
21:55
Anyway, I watched him for 18 days and then the next year I came back and
21:59
Pat Perelli was doing the demo and he had actually, you know, I was already
22:05
trying the stuff I'd seen Ray Hunt do, but Pat had like, you know, systematic
22:09
way of, of helping you to find these.
22:12
And then, so then I started, you know, with that.
22:16
And when I won the World Grand Championship, I then and I, and I said,
22:20
okay, I'm not gonna do IBM anymore.
22:23
I started teaching people how to get better results with their
22:27
walking horses because mm-hmm.
22:29
I had a name in that field and I found out they couldn't lead their
22:32
horses, they couldn't tie their horses, they couldn't saddle their horses.
22:35
So I said, you guys need a foundational element.
22:37
And I started teaching what Pat was offering, and I called him one
22:42
day and I said, you know, I'm, you know, I'm selling a lot of your
22:45
Hals and sticks and books and stuff.
22:48
What do I have to do to get this stuff wholesale?
22:50
He said, become an instructor for me.
22:52
Mm-hmm.
22:52
I said,
22:52
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
22:53
David Lichman: So that's how that journey came about.
22:57
And so the idea of when, when I started bringing this information to
23:03
the walking horse people, it was like bringing water to the desert, right?
23:06
They were so thirsty for this.
23:09
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting
23:09
David Lichman: that, that it became very you know, satisfying.
23:13
I didn't, I didn't have to.
23:14
I didn't, I, I didn't have to think too hard.
23:18
I, I knew what they needed and they wanted it.
23:20
It's like, it's always can be the case.
23:23
I know what you need and you don't want it.
23:24
I, how do I get you to want it?
23:26
You know, this is a motivation question.
23:28
And now I'm into marketing and Yeah.
23:30
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
23:31
David Lichman: This, this was like, bring water to the desert.
23:33
So, so we did this I did this for many years and then I started moving
23:38
away from just the gated horses and started my passion for Liberty Horses.
23:43
Okay.
23:44
Which was the other piece of the inspiration from back in Boston, we used
23:49
to go to the Ringling Brothers Circus.
23:52
Okay.
23:53
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
23:53
David Lichman: So the Liberty horses there, and I was
23:55
just fascinated with that.
23:56
Also in Boston Garden, I saw Ky.
24:00
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
24:02
David Lichman: He was the head rider of the
24:04
Rupert Isaacson: Spanish riding School
24:05
David Lichman: engineer.
24:05
Is that him on the
24:06
Rupert Isaacson: wall behind you?
24:08
David Lichman: No, but it is the Spanish riding school.
24:10
Yeah.
24:10
Yeah.
24:11
And he good eye.
24:15
So, they had flown the horses from Vienna and the, and all the riders, I
24:22
assume I have the program here somewhere.
24:24
And, and, you know, KLM was, they show the horses getting on these big airplanes to
24:30
come and they hung a couple of chandeliers over the, the ice hockey rink, basically.
24:34
Where In, in Boston Garden.
24:37
And they did a show there that just, you know, oh my God, the horses are dancing
24:41
and they're so elegant and rhythmic and everything was so phenomenal about these.
24:46
And I, I did not, you know, go that dressage path, but it was in my head.
24:51
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
24:52
David Lichman: this thing was possible.
24:54
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
24:54
David Lichman: And, and many, many years later, I, I started working with Joanna
24:59
Mendel Shaw dancing with horses, and I had a horse that would do PF and Pass, and,
25:04
and we, I was able to do stuff with her.
25:06
And, and so some of that was, was starting to, to come to fruition.
25:12
And then even more recently, I started hanging on with Ben Brand
25:15
who has taken this, this whole idea of lightness to a whole,
25:22
Rupert Isaacson: you guys can have a mustache off.
25:25
David Lichman: Yes.
25:27
He does.
25:27
The he does the, he does this thing.
25:30
Yeah.
25:32
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
25:32
But, you know, I mean,
25:33
David Lichman: well, I, this is, this for me is like, somebody asked
25:36
me why the mustache, you know,
25:37
Rupert Isaacson: ah,
25:38
David Lichman: I could tell you a dirty story about this,
25:40
Rupert Isaacson: please.
25:41
David Lichman: I don't know if you want to hear the dirties story.
25:43
Maybe the, the, the clean story is, is it, you know, circus ringmaster.
25:48
This is, is my, my sort of persona thing.
25:52
Rupert Isaacson: Did you always have that mustache or did that
25:54
come in with your horse thing?
25:56
David Lichman: Mm, before.
25:58
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
25:59
Well, yeah, I
25:59
David Lichman: didn't curl, I didn't curl it until later.
26:02
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
26:03
I just wanted tell not everyone who's listening or watching will know who
26:05
bent brander appears, and some people will, but he is the, sort of leading
26:10
light in what you would call the northern Baroque system of dressage.
26:16
He's Danish and very well known in that field.
26:18
Lots of books, lots of sort of training methodologies, et cetera, but sort of
26:24
training in the manner of, say, the 17th century Northern Baroque way and
26:29
doing it very elegantly and very well.
26:32
So that's who Ben Brandup is.
26:33
He's quite a celeb in the, in the, that end of the dressage world.
26:37
Yeah.
26:38
David Lichman: Yeah.
26:38
He, he calls it academic art of writing.
26:40
Indeed, he coin that phrase.
26:42
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
26:42
David Lichman: And he's
26:43
Rupert Isaacson: well, he nicked that phrase from the, from the old masters
26:45
who called it that, but yes, but or let's say he, he has revived revived it.
26:50
Exactly.
26:51
David Lichman: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:52
He also revived the the knighthood.
26:55
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
26:56
David Lichman: And he has this, you know, he's very pompous, you know, and so he
26:59
has this, you know, this knighthood and you pass these night levels and stuff.
27:03
And, and, but he says in the beginning, I, I, I lifted this from Nuno Olive
27:08
Oliveira, him and his buddies used to have this organization night, and you had
27:12
to pass these tests in order to be able to, you know, to keep up with each other.
27:16
And he said, you know, nobody can do those, those are impossible tests.
27:20
So I decided to make one that was accessible.
27:22
So I, I, I think everything he does is as admirable in that way.
27:26
But what I love about him is he's, he tells me that he's more of a
27:30
historian than he is a horse trainer.
27:32
And he has studied every single master all the way from Sapone up to current.
27:38
And he has tested each of those methods on horses and found which methods
27:42
were for which horses, which not.
27:44
And so he arrived at this place where, where he, he thinks that, that he has
27:50
he, he has, he has gathered the best of all of them for, you know, for the
27:54
ways to approach different horses.
27:55
And now he has these instructors that have, have taken it and are
28:00
doing you know, them Christopher Dahlgren and Marius Schneider.
28:03
Rupert Isaacson: Marius Schneider, yes.
28:04
Well, I, yeah, I, I do indeed.
28:06
And I haven't met them, but I'm aware of them.
28:09
I'm aware of their great work.
28:10
Yes.
28:10
David Lichman: Right.
28:11
So what, you know, whereas he was, he would, you know, all along he was pretty
28:15
strict and strong about you know, it has to be done this way and this and that.
28:19
He, since he's incorporated them as instructors, they have these instructor
28:22
meetings where it's all brainstorming and Christopher will say, I think you
28:25
should do, maybe we should try this.
28:26
And he says, great, try it.
28:27
Lemme know how it works.
28:28
So they, it's, he's more he's soliciting stuff, new stuff from these
28:34
guys that are in the field doing it.
28:36
And who are brilliant by the way.
28:37
Those guys are so brilliant.
28:39
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
28:39
They're.
28:40
David Lichman: So anyway, so I don't know how we got into Ben Brandup
28:43
Rupert Isaacson: mustache.
28:43
Well, interestingly, Ben Brandup is very much a European thing, and
28:46
you're very much an American base.
28:49
So how does that marry up?
28:53
You're, you're doing, you're doing the stuff
28:56
David Lichman: you, you're asking program, you're asking me, you're
28:58
asking me questions that, that that have miles of trails we could go, so,
29:03
Rupert Isaacson: okay, well that's
29:03
David Lichman: the,
29:04
Rupert Isaacson: isn't it?
29:05
David Lichman: Yeah.
29:05
Yeah.
29:05
I guess I don't know if, we'll, I know if we'll get back to the brand up story
29:09
and the circus inspiration of the circus horses to deliberate, but I'll, I'll
29:14
just, I'll close that chapter by saying that he also worked in the circus bank.
29:18
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
29:19
David Lichman: And he has got that, that, that showman kind of an attitude.
29:23
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
29:24
David Lichman: To, to, to carry on.
29:25
Which
29:25
Rupert Isaacson: circus did he work in?
29:26
David Lichman: He was in Germany, but I don't know which one.
29:29
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
29:30
There are
29:30
David Lichman: some
29:31
Rupert Isaacson: very good ones there.
29:31
David Lichman: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:32
So let's go to the European thing.
29:36
So I grew up in, you know, well, we had a, a Jewish household.
29:40
My grandparents barely smoked book English.
29:41
They spoke Yiddish.
29:43
My grandmother came over on the Lucita before it sunk.
29:48
And she came over two years after my grandfather did.
29:51
He had to come and work on a farm to raise enough money to call, get, send her over.
29:57
And at that time, she had a 2-year-old baby that they had to, to say, was, was
30:03
a suckling infants for free passage.
30:05
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
30:06
David Lichman: And so, I was able to, to look up the, the,
30:11
the what do they call those?
30:12
The manifest ships manifests?
30:14
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
30:15
David Lichman: There's a whole organization at Ellis Island
30:17
and I, I found all their records of when they came in.
30:20
Fascinating stuff.
30:21
So
30:21
Rupert Isaacson: when did they come in?
30:22
What year?
30:23
David Lichman: 1905 and seven.
30:26
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
30:26
David Lichman: Those, and my, my other grandparents on the other
30:29
side also came, I had to kind of search research for them also.
30:35
So, we have this Jewish household in, in Marblehead, Massachusetts.
30:40
And my sister was, and my aunt, so my father's sister, who's also had the same,
30:48
the same parents as my grandparents that came over fascinated with languages.
30:53
She taught Spanish, Latin, Hebrew, and French.
30:57
She was a language teacher, and my sister got that, and my sister was
31:01
learning all these languages and fascinated with foreign culture.
31:04
And we always had foreign exchange students at the house, so they address
31:08
Rupert Isaacson: me.
31:08
What did parents do?
31:09
What, what did they do for a living?
31:10
David Lichman: My, my mom was a, a, a a stay-at-home mom, and
31:14
my dad was a chemical engineer.
31:16
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
31:18
David Lichman: You know, side note, side note, he worked for
31:20
Board and Chemical Corporation.
31:22
When they.
31:24
He invented the Borden's Elmer's glue, all the white stuff.
31:29
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
31:30
David Lichman: That came from my dad.
31:31
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
31:33
Never did.
31:35
David Lichman: So, so we had, you know, you know, we had those, you know, people
31:38
from India and they would dress me up in Asari and, and and we had people
31:42
from from Germany and from Spain.
31:45
And I had castanets and, and the, the, the foreign culture was rampant.
31:51
And also my, my folks were square dancers and folk dancers.
31:54
So New England Square dancing, not quite like the stuff down in Texas.
31:58
But it is still call and and do formations according to a called pattern.
32:03
And then they would do contra dances, which were more the Celtic.
32:07
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
32:08
David Lichman: And then and then.
32:10
Greek Macedonian, Turkish.
32:13
So the culture, the culture started to flow in, into the dance.
32:16
So you were
32:17
Rupert Isaacson: exposed to all kinds of cosmopolitan stuff.
32:19
Yeah.
32:20
David Lichman: Yeah.
32:20
And, and my sister when she retired from teaching, she started writing books.
32:25
And the first book she wrote was European Cultures, manners and
32:28
Traditions explained for Americans.
32:31
And basically she says to take the, you know, the, the idiot
32:34
buffoon Americans stop them from making full paws in business.
32:39
So, like she said, don't, you know, don't talk business to the
32:42
Italians until you've had food.
32:44
You know, or don't be the first one to bring up money.
32:46
You know, you wait, even if it takes two days, you wait, don't be,
32:49
you know, she would have all these cultural things that she would Yeah.
32:52
She had explored.
32:53
And then she went on to write a series of five books about the Asia and
32:56
South America and, and and all these, these, these cultural awareness books.
33:03
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
33:04
David Lichman: And then, and I, I'll never forget, there was she wrote
33:06
one, the one she wrote in Japan was sh she would interview people.
33:10
She didn't necessarily go, but she would, her best source was.
33:15
Foreign people who lived in America.
33:16
Mm-hmm.
33:16
Because they saw the cultural differences firsthand.
33:20
They ran smack into 'em like a truck, right?
33:22
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
33:23
David Lichman: So she would interview them and say, you know, what's different?
33:25
How can I help Americans not to be so crass when they go over?
33:28
And so she talked to this guy Shiga Teta, I remember his name.
33:33
He, he married a friend of hers.
33:35
And she, she, she would gave her the stuff for the book.
33:39
And it says, when you, when you go to the somebody's house, you present a,
33:43
a, a gift, and they will take the gift and they will not open it because they
33:48
don't wanna embarrass you in case you couldn't afford a, you know, a nice gift.
33:51
They, they, they would accept graciously the gift and they
33:53
would put it away in another room.
33:56
So it was great.
33:56
So she puts this in the book, and then years later she goes to Japan
34:00
and she goes to visit sheik's brother.
34:03
And she brings him the gift and presents it to him, and he takes it, gets it open.
34:07
Wow.
34:08
Look at this.
34:08
And she goes, she came home and she was furious.
34:10
She called up.
34:11
She, she, and she said, you gave me wrong information for the book.
34:15
He grabbed a thing, he didn't put it aside.
34:17
He said, oh, that's my brother.
34:18
He is an asshole.
34:23
That's funny.
34:25
Anyway, so there's a, there's, there's a lot of European culture in my life.
34:31
Okay.
34:31
And I got to go to Germany and visit the the, the town where
34:35
my, my grandparents grew up,
34:37
Rupert Isaacson: which is what.
34:38
David Lichman: Nun via in, in Baden-Baden.
34:41
Rupert Isaacson: Baden-Baden.
34:42
Okay.
34:43
David Lichman: Yeah.
34:43
Yeah.
34:43
It's, and and we had to, you know, the first time it was very
34:46
interesting because the Jewish cemetery was not that well marked.
34:50
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
34:51
David Lichman: And we, we, we managed to find it and it was locked.
34:53
We had to climb the fence to get in.
34:55
And I found the gravestones and I, the, after the war, the government had restored
34:59
the gravestones that had been desecrated.
35:02
So my great grandfather had a new plaque and a new stone there, but there were only
35:08
two Jewish families and they, and they, you know, all the, all the gravestones
35:12
had that name or the other name.
35:14
It was Haifu.
35:15
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's interesting too.
35:16
I mean, I'm, I'm half Jewish and I know from experience that Jews are
35:20
not often found in the horse world.
35:22
And in fact, the horse world has been a, you know, a famously and historically
35:26
antisemitic environment because it, you know, for various reasons.
35:31
I have to laugh.
35:32
So you, you went in as a, as a Jewish boy latecomer with a lot of
35:37
passion, obviously a lot of talent, and then, you know, quickly went pro.
35:43
Did you encounter much antisemitism, even if it was unconscious, anti-Semitism?
35:49
David Lichman: No.
35:50
Rupert Isaacson: On your path?
35:51
David Lichman: Well, I encountered a lot of anti-Semitism
35:53
when I went to prep school.
35:54
'cause I was flunking outta high school and they sent me to a
35:56
Protestant school and I, there was a.
35:59
Eye-opening experience.
36:02
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
36:03
David Lichman: There it was uncomfortable.
36:04
I didn't like it.
36:05
But then we talked our way into the, 'cause there were three of us, they
36:08
had three token Jews in the school, and we talked our way into having
36:12
Friday night religious services.
36:15
Okay.
36:15
In the crypt, in the basement of the church, and they let us have wine.
36:20
Right.
36:21
But yeah, very important to have wine on Shabbas.
36:24
Yeah.
36:24
Very important candles and wine.
36:25
Right.
36:27
But, but yeah, no, it, it, it's funny you bring up this thing because I, I
36:31
was flying home from a clinic once, and I'm sitting in the airplane
36:34
and there's woman sitting next to me and a guy sitting next to her.
36:38
And I look, you know, she has the ticket stub sticking out of her, out
36:40
of the seat pocket in front of her.
36:41
I see.
36:42
It's Debbie be LaMi you know, ton light hands horsemanship?
36:48
Rupert Isaacson: No, no, no.
36:49
Okay.
36:49
David Lichman: Okay.
36:50
Well, they're, they're pretty, they, he started a thing called cowboy dressage.
36:54
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
36:55
David Lichman: So he's, he's the guy and he, he's from up here.
36:57
So we happen to be on the same plane coming to, I had never met
37:00
him, but I look over there and I I see that, you know, I'm sitting.
37:03
So I started up a conversation and you know Sure.
37:05
Where the book I'm reading, which is probably yours.
37:07
That's may have been.
37:09
And we started talking and she, she looks at me and she says, you know, I
37:13
don't know how many Jewish cowboys there are in the world, but here I am sitting
37:16
right between probably the only two.
37:22
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, it's funny.
37:23
But there you are.
37:25
You know, you find yourself in that world.
37:29
You start being successful in that world, and now you're a, you become a Pelli
37:33
instructor and you, but you have your own gig and you're doing the liberty stuff.
37:39
Talk us through how it goes from there to, and, and, and sort of bring us up to
37:43
where you are now, and then we can talk a bit more generally about where you're
37:47
going and you know, what, how things have
37:49
David Lichman: Well, well, I had an epiphany around the, the Liberty stuff.
37:54
One of, one of the things that happened was my sister had given
37:59
me tickets to go to the circus, a big Apple circus in, in Boston.
38:04
And I, and I saw this woman the start of the big Apple circus was
38:09
fa lights out smoke fog machine.
38:13
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
38:14
David Lichman: Six gray Arabian horses milling around and, you know,
38:17
interacting with each other, going up in their hind legs and stuff.
38:20
And a figure comes out, hooded figure walks out, and all of a sudden the
38:26
horse is just like, gather around her.
38:27
They stare in their hind legs and out.
38:31
Rupert Isaacson: This
38:31
David Lichman: is amazing.
38:32
And then when the actual Liberty Act came during the show, they, you
38:36
know, they either had no side rains or like extremely loose side reigns.
38:41
Mm-hmm.
38:41
And I said to somebody, I need to meet, I need to learn about this.
38:44
So I sent her a note and and I had already been back in
38:47
California when she called me.
38:50
And we started a, a friendship that has gone now more than 20 years, and I've
38:54
learned so much about the choreography and the way that horses the way that
38:58
the traditional way of training circus horses, and I, I decided I wanted,
39:02
it all relies on the ring curb.
39:04
So the ring curb is like the anchor for the behaviors.
39:07
And I said, well, my thing is to do liberty on the beach.
39:10
So how, how, how can I create these choreography moves without the
39:16
use of a ring curb or a round pen?
39:18
And that became my my passion is to do that.
39:21
And I, I feel like I'm pretty successful with that.
39:24
There are, since circus is dying in America, there are, you know, some
39:29
super qualified liberty horse trainers that are taking, going to horse expos
39:33
and whatnot, and they carry the, the, the horses that learned in the ring to
39:38
the large arena, and it sort of works.
39:40
They could kind of egg shape, but, you know, they're so, such
39:42
pattern learners that mm-hmm.
39:44
It sort of works for 'em.
39:44
But I sort of, my goal was to not, was to teach it in a way that they
39:49
wanted to be in these patterns with me.
39:51
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
39:52
David Lichman: So the epiphany came when I found this woman named Casey
39:55
Ver, and she was teaching potbelly pigs using positive reinforcement.
40:00
Bridge and target training.
40:01
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
40:02
David Lichman: She thought she was going to, because popular pigs were so popular
40:06
she thought she was gonna be able to make a living helping these idiots that would
40:10
get them and not know how to train them.
40:11
Yeah.
40:12
And train them in a, in a, using positive reinforcement in a great way.
40:16
And so I, I met her and she said I'm coming out to California.
40:20
One of my students runs a sea lion facility in, in Moss landing.
40:26
And we're gonna do a horse and sea lion event.
40:29
And would you like to come and be a, you know, a visiting specialist or something?
40:33
I don't know.
40:34
Think, yes.
40:36
Same me up.
40:38
So I, I learned so much from the sea lion piece of this, all the,
40:42
the use of positive reinforcement in the relationship building.
40:46
And then Casey went back to the East Coast, Virginia, and I, I became
40:51
really fast friends with the Dr.
40:53
Jennifer Zeligs, who was the,
40:55
Rupert Isaacson: I was gonna, I was just wondering if you had met her.
40:58
Yes.
40:58
David Lichman: Yeah.
40:59
So I met her for the
40:59
Rupert Isaacson: first time.
41:00
David Lichman: So I met her when she was Jennifer Hurley.
41:02
She was married before.
41:04
And she took back her maiden name.
41:06
But this, this was eyeopening.
41:09
I, I sort of, I understood, you know, sort of positive reinforcement
41:12
from an organic standpoint.
41:14
You know, when I was a kid, I, you know, my neighbors had a dog.
41:16
I trained the dog.
41:17
I had cookies.
41:18
You know, it was, it was sort of innate.
41:20
But she opened me up to the, to the art and science.
41:25
Of this and, and that my training in
41:28
Rupert Isaacson: a nutshell, what did she do?
41:29
'cause I think I'm actually gonna have her come on the show hopefully in a few weeks.
41:32
So this can act as a bit of a, of an opener for her.
41:35
And that for, for the viewers and listeners.
41:37
Jennifer Zeligs is an extraordinary animal trainer.
41:40
She's also kind of a university professor at Oxford now.
41:45
And, and she has worked in zoos with wild animals of all kinds all over the world.
41:51
And you think, well, why do they need training?
41:53
You think, well, what happens when the veteran, you know, when you need
41:55
the vet to come and you need the lion to let you do its teeth, or you need,
41:59
and you, and the lion has a heart condition, so you can't put it under
42:02
a general anesthetic, so dah dah.
42:04
And she's like, she's that person who then spends a month with that lion
42:09
or the sea lion or the tortoise, or whatever it is getting them to be okay.
42:17
And it, what's so crazy about her, she's like, across all these different species
42:23
such an interesting lady Buddhist.
42:25
Yeah.
42:25
Anyway, so, so yeah.
42:26
What, what was the nutshell she gave you?
42:27
She's a,
42:28
David Lichman: she's a secular Buddhist.
42:30
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
42:31
David Lichman: And it's, it has helped her a lot, you know,
42:33
with her, with her own things.
42:36
But, so in a nutshell, the, the, you know, her train, because you mentioned it, her
42:41
training starts with the relationship.
42:45
So her, the number one.
42:48
I use this in every lecture, every every class.
42:52
Number one rule of animal training come bearing gifts.
42:55
Okay.
42:55
Be the person that the horse or the animal looks forward to seeing every day.
43:00
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
43:01
David Lichman: Right.
43:01
That's going to start you off on the right path.
43:04
And these are unconditional gifts.
43:05
You have this one condition, you can't be aggressive, you can't, you
43:08
know, can't mug me for the treats.
43:09
But the only, that's the only, and even if they are, you can toss the
43:12
treats and the cookies over the fence to them, into a bucket or something.
43:16
So you're, it's really unconditional.
43:19
And then you can once, once they are realize that you are, you
43:23
know, kind of a, a, a good, a good thing in their lives, you can start
43:26
asking 'em to, to make an exchange.
43:28
If you'll put your foot on this, I'll give you some more
43:31
treats and this kind of thing.
43:33
So, but she calls it the relationship bank account.
43:36
You wanna put more in than you take out because the times when you take it out,
43:39
when the de equine dentist comes or the, you know, the trail loading that
43:43
they have to go because there's a fire.
43:44
All those things, withdrawals from the relationship bank account.
43:47
You want to have a giant.
43:49
Massive wealthy relationship bank account that'll carry you through anything
43:54
that you need to do with your animal.
43:56
And you know, it's to say, bill Gates you know, if, if you ask Bill
44:00
Gates to, to give you a thousand dollars, it's like pocket lin, right?
44:04
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
44:04
David Lichman: But if you ask somebody who only has $10 for a thousand dollars,
44:07
it's life, life ending could be.
44:10
Mm-hmm.
44:10
David Lichman: You know, if you had to save his life, he couldn't get it done.
44:12
10 thou a thousand dollars.
44:14
So the, the idea of building this relationship bank account,
44:17
that was, that's number one.
44:19
Number two, is her focus even stronger than mine because she was
44:23
using she was mostly dealing with I'll say wild animals, let's say.
44:27
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
44:27
David Lichman: Not non domesticated animals.
44:29
That's, that's a better way of saying it, is to take care of the husbandry first.
44:35
The first thing they need to learn is, you know, how to weigh them.
44:39
How to take their temperature, how to, you know, take blood
44:41
draws, how to examine their teeth, everything that they are gonna need
44:45
in their life to be well cared for.
44:49
That's her training priority, brushing their teeth, all these things.
44:53
I mean, you know, and when you watch the young ones, all of
44:57
our animals came from rescues.
44:58
They, you know, they were beached animals that, that couldn't be released
45:02
to the wild after they were healed.
45:05
And and, you know, they're, they're aggressive and, you know, and I, I,
45:09
you know, I'd see them and she'd be there, you know, with a brooms right.
45:11
To defend herself.
45:13
And I come back two months later and she's.
45:15
Brushing their teeth and it's like, oh my God, this woman is
45:19
a miracle worker in this area.
45:21
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
45:22
David Lichman: So the, the mechanics of using positive reinforcement and the other
45:26
piece of the puzzle, if you look at her book, it's called Animal Training 1 0 1 6.
45:30
There's six opera condition conditioning methodologies for training any animal.
45:37
And the, the point of the book is I'm not, I, of course I have a preference
45:43
for positive reinforcement and target training because it's the gentlest
45:48
and most cooperative way, but it's not the best way in every situation.
45:51
So here's all the ways, here's the drawbacks and
45:53
benefits of, of each of them.
45:55
You choose your own path.
45:57
This hit me, you know, smack in the face because we have this whole horsemanship
46:02
tradition, which has value to the animal.
46:05
You know, negative reinforcement has a, you know, terrible sounding name, but, you
46:09
know, pressure and release doesn't sound so terrible, but it's the same thing.
46:12
Mm-hmm.
46:13
But we've been training horses this way for.
46:15
You know, thousands of years with extraordinary results
46:19
if you do it tactfully.
46:20
Mm.
46:21
So why, why is this?
46:23
It's because it's ethological.
46:25
It's, it's part of the way the horses interact with each other.
46:28
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
46:29
David Lichman: You know, whether you want to call it hierarchy or pecking
46:31
order, it doesn't really matter.
46:33
It's about the relation individual pair relationships.
46:36
You know, like one's gonna push the other until the, you know, they find some common
46:40
ground and they, and if you are accepted into the herd as non-threatening, most
46:47
likely because you came bearing gifts, which is from the other side, right?
46:51
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
46:52
David Lichman: You can now interact with them in this way and, and, and, you know,
46:55
get results where people who are trying to do it other ways are not successful.
47:01
So, here I am, I have this, that's the whole foundation
47:04
for Pelli use is all that.
47:06
So I have all this foundation and I'm doing great.
47:09
And now I have this, and, and I just married them.
47:14
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
47:15
David Lichman: The first person I saw that married them was Alexander Kurland
47:18
clicker, clicker Train Your Horse.
47:20
And in her book, she says, go ahead and play the Pelli games, wiggle
47:23
your rope, and when the horse backs up, click and give him a cookie.
47:27
So she already was, had this idea that you could do both.
47:30
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
47:32
David Lichman: And I just, I just ran with that.
47:33
So, you know, I, I can't thank Jennifer enough, plus, you know, I got to go
47:37
hang out with sea lions, you know, for all the time I was with her.
47:41
I never asked her if I could do something.
47:43
With a sea lion.
47:44
I, I, I, I always felt like I wasn't qualified.
47:49
It was really, you know, I watched her, you know, be so strict
47:52
with her trainees and stuff.
47:53
I said, I'm, I'm gonna go in there, I'm gonna make a mistake.
47:56
I don't, I don't, I don't need to do it.
47:57
Mm-hmm.
47:57
And then right before she, in her last year, I, I went ahead and she, she
48:02
let me go in and, and feed a fish.
48:05
That was the, that was the task.
48:06
Feed a fish in the proper way from the outside of the fence.
48:11
I could do some targeting and stuff.
48:13
But it, it's this thing about balancing using positive and negative reinforcement.
48:18
It's come kind of a catch phrase for me, but I still run into it and it, and it, it
48:25
bothers me that there are people in both camps that think the other one is wacko.
48:33
Rupert Isaacson: As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm
48:36
an autism dad and we have a whole career before this podcast in helping
48:43
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48:48
Are you a therapist?
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49:01
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49:03
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49:08
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49:11
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49:12
And she told me what to do.
49:14
And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years.
49:18
That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped
49:23
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49:27
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49:32
If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed
49:37
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49:39
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49:53
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50:18
live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
50:23
David Lichman: It's, it's, it's, it's prevalent.
50:25
I don't want my horse
50:26
Rupert Isaacson: in, in the horse world, David, really, I've never noticed this.
50:30
I've, I've, I, I've spent all these decades in the horse world, never
50:33
have I encountered anything other than people behaving a loving, an
50:37
open-hearted way to each other.
50:42
David Lichman: Okay.
50:42
Point taken.
50:43
But these are people who are trying to do the right thing for the horse.
50:46
Right.
50:47
They're not, they're not, you know, trying to get results so much as they are
50:49
trying to, they both say they're for the horse, but the, these people will come to
50:54
me and they'll, they'll hire me knowing what I do and say, well, I want my horse
50:58
to love me for me, not for the cookies.
51:04
Know, so you'll deny 'em cookies to make the loving harder.
51:10
Right.
51:14
And my assistant, my assistant Betina, she said, here's what you tell 'em.
51:17
He said food is nurturing.
51:19
Nurturing is love.
51:20
You wanna love your horse.
51:21
Just, yeah.
51:22
Say it simply like that.
51:23
So I, I sort of reverted to that.
51:25
So we get that side, and then we get the other side that says, you know,
51:28
Rupert Isaacson: it's also worth be, it is worth just pointing out there
51:31
that in the mammalian caregiving system, what is the first thing
51:35
that a baby seeks from its mother?
51:37
Yeah, breast milk.
51:37
Yeah, breast and milk.
51:39
So it's.
51:41
Theft written into the DNA code.
51:44
Yeah.
51:44
Yeah.
51:44
Why, why fight it?
51:46
Yeah.
51:46
David Lichman: You know, and I, I wonder why I have such a sweet tooth, right?
51:49
And then when I, when I finally had a daughter and I go back to Marblehead and
51:53
my, and she's sitting in the backseat with my mom and she's, you know, being
51:57
a little fussy and my mom reaches into her purse and pulls out some, you know,
52:00
chocolate chips or M and msm, something starts stuffing in, in her mouth.
52:04
I, huh.
52:05
Now it's all, it's all coming back to me.
52:07
Why?
52:10
She used to, to get me to drink milks.
52:11
She used to put chocolate chips in the bottom of the milk.
52:14
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely.
52:15
Absolutely.
52:16
David Lichman: But yeah, so from the other side, really perspective, absolutely this
52:20
natural horsemanship thing, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot more,
52:24
you know, aversives dis discomfort to try to get the horse to, to find what
52:29
you're looking for, to be easy and, and motivated to do it in a positive way.
52:32
Mm-hmm.
52:33
So it's, it's, you know, a little more ruffled feathers could be,
52:36
but no way less than that you would ever see them doing with each other.
52:41
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
52:41
Absolutely.
52:42
David Lichman: But, but, you know, the, the, the best practitioners of this,
52:46
like Buck Brandman, I love Buck Brandman.
52:49
Have you read his book?
52:50
Oh my God,
52:51
Rupert Isaacson: no.
52:51
I have not.
52:52
Yeah,
52:52
David Lichman: you must Danny get
52:53
Rupert Isaacson: him on the show.
52:53
Yeah.
52:54
David Lichman: You, yeah.
52:54
You must read his book.
52:55
I don't know what he's doing now, but his book, it, it, it tears your heart
53:01
out, what he went through as a kid.
53:02
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
53:03
David Lichman: If anybody should be beating horses to get them
53:06
to do stuff, it should be him.
53:07
And he just.
53:09
Pushed all that stuff that was done to him as a child away and asking
53:16
to treat the horses the opposite.
53:18
So to me, you know, he can't do any wrong, but he did say that anybody who
53:23
uses streets to train horses is an idiot.
53:26
So I don't think I'm an idiot, but, but I understand where he
53:31
Rupert Isaacson: is going.
53:31
Yeah, it's an interesting one, this, because people often
53:34
ask me, Ru do you use treats?
53:37
And you know, in, in, in the, what, 15 years or so since we last met for
53:45
reasons too complicated to explain, we are now also classical dressage
53:50
trainers in the sort of bar rock style.
53:54
And that came through autism, not through us particularly wanting
53:57
to, because we, we realized that we, the horse was in collection.
54:01
The kids spoke if it was in the saddle in front of you because of
54:05
oxytocin of the rocking of the hips.
54:07
And we all know how beautiful it feels.
54:09
Well that also that can, that bliss hormone is also a communication
54:13
hormone and that's horse boy method.
54:15
And so because we had to start training the horses more and more this way,
54:18
it was just a natural progression.
54:19
And anyway, so people come, we now have a stable of school master horses.
54:24
People come from all over the world and they, they learn with us whether
54:27
they're learning the therapeutic side, the dressage side, or both.
54:30
Usually both.
54:31
And so, people often ask me, do you use treats?
54:36
And what I always say is when I remember to, and I wish I remember two more
54:41
often, but I'm distracted with stuff and I don't, so I'm not like the dude
54:45
who walks around with the fanny pack, with the, you know, blah, blah, blah.
54:48
And it's all really organized.
54:49
And no, because I just don't operate that way in my life, period.
54:54
I, I get round to things when I, when it occurs to me.
54:57
So sometimes I got treats and sometimes I don't.
55:00
Yeah.
55:00
And I find, weirdly that works for me very well because what will
55:04
often happen is when the horse.
55:06
Is being very generous.
55:07
I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't have a Scooby snack.
55:10
I should go get you a Scooby snack.
55:12
And the horse knows the word Scooby snack, you know, so, oh, I need a Scooby snack.
55:15
Yes, you do.
55:16
So you just hang out here and I'll sort of run off to the feed room and
55:20
grab a Scooby snack and come back.
55:21
And there's some, sometimes that's even more special in a weird way
55:25
because, and then sometimes I've got the Scooby snacks on me.
55:29
And then like, you, my only thing is look, don't mug me.
55:32
You know, I, I did a lot of early trick training with Alan Pogue
55:37
because we were both in Texas.
55:38
He's an amazing dude.
55:39
I'm trying to get him to come on the show.
55:41
And his adage about always your mouth to their hand, never the your hand,
55:46
your hand mouth, never, the mouth to your hand is a very good one.
55:49
And I found that horses can discern.
55:51
It's really interesting once you just say, Hey, listen,
55:54
please don't mug me, you know?
55:56
And then very occasionally when they get a bit cheeky, like, cheeky eat,
55:59
and they're like, okay, fair enough.
56:00
You know, the, there isn't this big deal about it.
56:04
Either way
56:05
David Lichman: to be, to be honest.
56:06
There can be, and, and I'm not the greatest example because
56:09
I don't care if they muck me.
56:10
Right.
56:11
So.
56:11
Right.
56:11
I like it when they're nuzzling and, you know, they're, they're begging and stuff,
56:14
but it's not really, Jennifer hates it.
56:17
She hates seeing my horses, you know, what are they doing?
56:20
Yeah.
56:20
Because she, she draws the line very hard and I understand why,
56:23
Rupert Isaacson: but also, I guess we're also not dealing with, you know,
56:25
aggressive carnivores like she is, but,
56:27
David Lichman: and, and no one else has to deal with my horses.
56:29
Like if you were to
56:29
Rupert Isaacson: therapy horse, well, I think everything is,
56:30
everyone has to deal with mine.
56:32
See, that's the difference.
56:33
Yeah.
56:33
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
56:33
So I can't count the number of people who come and sit on my horses for pf massage,
56:39
flying changes, caprio oils, blah, blah.
56:41
You know, they do it and they'll do it joyfully and happily for anybody in
56:45
their dog that comes through the door.
56:47
And
56:49
David Lichman: yeah, so Jennifer, Jennifer's
56:51
Rupert Isaacson: so, so, you know what I mean?
56:52
It's not, other people have to deal with my horses daily and it's fine.
56:57
It's fine.
56:57
Yeah.
56:58
David Lichman: It's, it's apec it's a, it's, it's one of the
57:00
cases where, or public performance horses or therapy horses or horses
57:06
that are being used around kids.
57:07
These horses have to have a, an extra level of of
57:10
Rupert Isaacson: they do,
57:11
David Lichman: Of discernment of, of, of concern about being, be,
57:15
be about keeping those kids safe.
57:18
Yeah.
57:18
Yeah.
57:18
You know, they can't be, they can't be mugging.
57:20
It's, it's not, it's not appropriate.
57:22
So, so there's an extra level of, of care and caution that goes into that,
57:26
and Jennifer does it with all our animals because they're basically non domesticated
57:29
animals and they could take your head off.
57:31
So,
57:31
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
57:32
David Lichman: But, but the, the message, the training message is the fastest path.
57:37
Yay.
57:38
The only path to the food is through the behavior.
57:41
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
57:42
David Lichman: So there, there's no path to the food where that,
57:45
that you head towards the food that that path doesn't exist.
57:48
Yeah.
57:48
But there are plenty of paths that you can choose, and I will let you choose
57:51
them all the time if you go through the behavior and behavior may be
57:55
standing quietly waiting for a treat.
57:57
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
57:57
David Lichman: So this, yeah, exactly.
57:58
You know, this is, this is fun, fundamental, and foundational to
58:02
the, the, to the use of treats.
58:04
But anyway, what bothers me is only the ones I, I don't care if
58:08
you come to me and say, sometimes I use treats, sometimes I don't.
58:10
I come, I don't care if you come to me and say, I never use treats.
58:13
Some, or, or I, I might say to you, would you be interested in trying see
58:18
if it makes a difference or, you know, I might, might have a discussion.
58:20
Yeah.
58:20
But really, really the answer is you do what you want.
58:25
Both of these systems work great.
58:27
I found that when I marry them, I'm getting extraordinary results.
58:30
That's way more than twice as good as one, one or the other.
58:34
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
58:34
David Lichman: And I may never get as good, you know, as Buck Brandman
58:37
is with horses with, with my way.
58:40
But I'm getting closer than if I didn't, if I didn't use streets,
58:44
I would, I'm getting closer.
58:47
Rupert Isaacson: I think too, there's also a thing of how you wanna live
58:49
your life as a horseman and how you want to interact with nature.
58:54
Period.
58:55
As we know, horses sort of attract a certain personality type that is
59:02
controlling and that can be a very good thing in certain ways, and it can
59:07
be a very bad thing in certain ways.
59:08
And the other thing we have to allow for is that the greater acts of
59:13
criminality of man to their fellow man have either happened basically on the
59:19
backs of horses or on off, off ships.
59:21
It's unfortunate for the horse, but we have, you know, used
59:24
them as vehicles for this.
59:26
And so there's a kind of a fierceness that comes genetically down the line
59:33
of horse people from the step all the way through, you know, the gothic lines
59:38
and the Ibero Celtic lines and the, the middle Eastern lines and, you know.
59:43
The central Asian lines.
59:45
These are warlike people and so those of us who carry those
59:50
genes tend to be a bit like that.
59:52
And I think that's why horse people are so competitive.
59:54
They just can't help it.
59:55
But the, you know, at least we're not actually chopping each other's
59:59
heads off with savers anymore, but, you know, sort of metaphorically
1:00:02
all the time on Facebook.
1:00:04
But it's, it's, of course it's pointless.
1:00:06
But I do think, like you, my my feeling is people have the right to interact with the
1:00:11
culture in the way that is right for them.
1:00:14
And I think this is just so often missed.
1:00:17
You know, like you, I go round, oh, you know, I dunno how many trainings I do,
1:00:22
you know, yearly in 40 countries, right.
1:00:24
You know, and it's different wherever I go.
1:00:27
But what I, what I always look out for is the one thing that I feel is glaringly
1:00:32
missing from the training scale, you know, the German training scale and
1:00:36
all of that and or any of the methods
1:00:42
is the fundamental thing that we're all looking for and which
1:00:46
the horse is looking for is joy.
1:00:48
That's it.
1:00:50
It's the only reason any of us getting involved with horses and we certainly
1:00:55
don't need them for transport.
1:00:55
You could argue in the therapy work that I do, that there is a kind of
1:00:58
a necessity there, but for the most.
1:01:01
But even there, it's to feel good even there, it's ultimately actually for joy.
1:01:05
'cause oxytocin is joy.
1:01:07
So, you know, the function of the, the joyful brain is the learning brain.
1:01:10
The joyful brain is the functioning brain.
1:01:11
So it is still joy.
1:01:13
So to
1:01:16
approach the culture without that as the primary thing,
1:01:22
almost negates it from the start.
1:01:24
And then joy becomes sort of an accidental or spontaneous here and there
1:01:30
with an awful lot of grump in between.
1:01:33
Or we could like sideline the grump.
1:01:37
And so much of sidelining the grump is often, you know, I used to be so
1:01:41
much more judgmental than I am now.
1:01:43
And now I go to all these different bonds and I just notice the ones
1:01:48
that are really joyful and where the horses are really joyful.
1:01:51
And I see that people can keep their horses in all kinds of different ways.
1:01:54
And they might be very different to the ways in which I keep my horses.
1:01:58
But is it joyful?
1:02:01
Is it a good vibe, a joyful vibe among the monkeys?
1:02:04
And is it a good, joyful vibe among the ponies?
1:02:06
If it is, I have nothing to say other than, you know, here are some tools
1:02:11
that will make it even more joyful.
1:02:12
You know what I mean?
1:02:13
But to, to say it this or is it this?
1:02:16
It's just, it's just
1:02:17
David Lichman: Well, we, what's, what's great about having a focus
1:02:20
on liberty training is that if it ain't joyful, it ain't gonna happen.
1:02:24
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:02:25
Yeah.
1:02:25
' David Lichman: cause the horse is gonna leave now if you do it
1:02:27
in a stall, maybe in a stall.
1:02:29
I've seen people cannot catch their horse in a horse trailer.
1:02:32
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
1:02:33
David Lichman: You know, so, so the, the everybody's, everybody that's,
1:02:38
you know, I'm surrounding myself with people who are desirous of learning
1:02:41
something that you, you, you, you can't get there the other way.
1:02:46
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:02:46
David Lichman: So there's a, there's a, you know, I, I'm giving
1:02:48
you, you know, maybe I'm, my, the food as a motivator is a shortcut.
1:02:53
Right.
1:02:53
It helps to make it not so, time consuming that you, you know.
1:02:57
Mm-hmm.
1:02:57
But I have so many students now that are, are, are gaining these joyful
1:03:03
relationships with their horses from doing nothing, from sitting out there.
1:03:09
Absolutely.
1:03:09
And, you know, and, and, and, and, you know, pat, pat Pelli was the first
1:03:13
one to say this, you know, spend some undemanding time with your horse.
1:03:15
It was like in the chapter one of, lesson one in the beginning of the program.
1:03:19
Yeah.
1:03:19
But nobody listened.
1:03:20
Even I, even Warwick Schiller told me one day, he said he was, I saw him out,
1:03:24
another thing, and he said, we should be, you know, he's, we should be spending you.
1:03:28
This horse needs you to go out and hang out with him.
1:03:30
Spend under many time with him.
1:03:31
He says, Linda Pley was telling me this 10 years ago and I
1:03:34
didn't hear it till just now.
1:03:36
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:03:37
I couldn't agree more.
1:03:39
David Lichman: So with the, with the Liberty focus, people
1:03:42
are very happy to do it.
1:03:43
And and it's making a huge difference.
1:03:45
And I don't, I don't have to sell it really.
1:03:48
Yeah.
1:03:48
My, my new my newest assistant her name is Gabriela, Adam Cheska.
1:03:53
She's from Poland.
1:03:55
And I say she's like the queen of a demanding time.
1:03:59
I mean, and, and it's not, she does, it's because she doesn't
1:04:03
have to force herself, you know?
1:04:04
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:04:05
David Lichman: She, she can't wait to get to the barn and she can't wait
1:04:10
to just sit there and scratch 'em and cuddle 'em for hours and, and the joy.
1:04:16
And you see her and I, and she'd go up for walks in the woods and I said, you know,
1:04:19
you should be just, just turn 'em loose.
1:04:20
They're not gonna go anywhere.
1:04:21
No, I'm worried about the moose and I'm worried about somebody
1:04:24
asshole coming with a car.
1:04:25
And, but those horses are never going to leave her.
1:04:31
And Moose jumps out, they're gonna run to her.
1:04:33
And just recently, the last couple of, couple of videos she sent
1:04:36
me, she's got the rope around the neck and she's jogging out there.
1:04:38
And then you see the road is like forever.
1:04:41
This, this pony could go, you know, from Poland to to Germany.
1:04:47
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:04:47
David Lichman: But it's not, it's not going more than 50 feet.
1:04:50
Yeah.
1:04:50
It's, it's coming back.
1:04:52
So it's because, you know, she has a hammock in the barn.
1:04:56
She has a coffee maker and a hammock, and, and she's studying
1:04:59
to be an osteopath in Germany.
1:05:02
So she's reading her osteopath, uh mm-hmm.
1:05:04
Study material and it, it's and so I, I have her help me with all of my students
1:05:11
as if nothing more than an example.
1:05:14
Rupert Isaacson: The difficulty, I think, for a lot of people with this,
1:05:16
so, I think we have to be fair here is, so I'm lucky I live with my ponies.
1:05:22
They're right outside my door right here, and they live on a mountain.
1:05:26
So, and I can go trail riding with them and they, they'll come with me as a herd.
1:05:30
If I go for a walk, they'll come with me as a herd.
1:05:32
Hey, what's, what's, you know, auntie dad up to you today?
1:05:35
And they're curious and they just wanna hang.
1:05:37
And I will just go and answer emails sitting on a rock in the field and
1:05:41
they'll come and they'll hang out with me.
1:05:42
And so, you know, and we make videos about this telling people
1:05:46
to do it, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1:05:47
But we have that luxury because this is how we live.
1:05:52
And I totally get the people who, the large, vast majority of horse
1:05:57
owners do not have that luxury, sadly.
1:06:00
They have a job and they're battling for the time to spend with their horse.
1:06:06
So after work, you know, they've gotta get to the barn and they only have this
1:06:10
small window of time because maybe they have family and you know, so and so on.
1:06:15
And maybe their husband isn't, you know, into horses and doesn't want
1:06:20
her at the barn all night, you know, even though she probably would.
1:06:23
And so there's a time pressure.
1:06:27
And then there's also peer pressure.
1:06:29
And then there's, oh, I can only be in the arena 'cause it's after dark, you know?
1:06:34
And it's, you know, I get off work after dark and I've gotta go in
1:06:37
the arena and the arena's, you know, gonna be full of people.
1:06:39
So I've gotta make sure I'm in there by six 30, you know, for my slot.
1:06:44
And I've only got this slot and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1:06:47
And now we come along like assholes and say, oh, you've got to go
1:06:50
and sit on a rock, you know, on your mountain with your horses.
1:06:53
And I, I, I, you know, like you, I do an awful lot of sort of equine symposiums
1:06:58
and I was listening to somebody, you know, effectively shaming people for not having
1:07:02
the state of Wyoming as their backyard.
1:07:04
I'm like, come on.
1:07:05
No.
1:07:06
Surely what we should be doing is giving people solutions.
1:07:11
So,
1:07:12
David Lichman: and so that's exactly my point in this, is that you,
1:07:15
you okay, nobody is, I don't know anyone else in the world that's
1:07:19
gonna do what Gabrielle is doing.
1:07:20
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:07:20
David Lichman: But here's, here's, you see, you know how this is working.
1:07:26
Shave off 10 minutes.
1:07:28
Rupert Isaacson: That's it.
1:07:29
David Lichman: That's it.
1:07:29
You know, just, just, you know, and, and Jen, you'll talk to Jennifer about this
1:07:34
when you've talked to Jennifer, she wrote a, a new book called The Mindful Partners
1:07:38
and Copy floating around here somewhere.
1:07:43
No, that's a different book.
1:07:44
And, and I took her Mindful Partners course online with her.
1:07:48
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:07:48
David Lichman: And and everything starts with 10 minutes of meditation.
1:07:51
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
1:07:52
David Lichman: to get yourself to the place where you can interact
1:07:55
with a horse without bringing all that crap from the rest of your life.
1:07:59
So, and you know, and I didn't like it,
1:08:03
you know, I did not like that.
1:08:05
I didn't, I wanna sit, sit and do nothing.
1:08:07
I wanted to spend the time with my horse because although I preached
1:08:10
on demanding time, I'm doing this stuff and, you know, and now I've
1:08:14
started playing a lot of music.
1:08:15
This music takes hours of practice.
1:08:18
I'm not out there all that time.
1:08:20
But what I did learn from her was, so we had to do, I was doing pigeon training.
1:08:25
I said, I'm gonna train some my pigeon or chickens.
1:08:27
I was gonna train my why.
1:08:29
Rupert Isaacson: Well, in,
1:08:30
David Lichman: well, because I love, because I love chickens and I love
1:08:32
pigeons, and I love training, and I didn't want to, you know, my horses, I have
1:08:36
already have like this relationship with the horses and I'm taking this course.
1:08:39
I want to try something fresh.
1:08:40
Right?
1:08:40
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:08:41
David Lichman: So I found that, you know, by having the pigeons fly
1:08:45
to me and eat seeds out of a cup, that was very meditative for me.
1:08:50
I
1:08:50
Rupert Isaacson: bet
1:08:50
David Lichman: I didn't have to, you know, practice some kind of meditation.
1:08:53
I was just breathing and listening to the, they make a little sound when they
1:08:58
eating, and it's like, it's fabulous.
1:09:01
So, so, yeah.
1:09:03
Shave off a piece.
1:09:05
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:09:05
David Lichman: And then maybe the most important thing, which I, maybe
1:09:09
she, you could ask her about it, is the, is this thing she calls a reset.
1:09:13
So when you find that you're interacting with the animal and you have lost that.
1:09:18
Place, turn around one minute, just take one minute and find
1:09:23
that place and then come back.
1:09:25
And I have used that for myself and students thousands of times
1:09:29
since I learned that from her.
1:09:31
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
1:09:32
David Lichman: You don't need to be out there for, for an hour now if
1:09:34
she does no meditate for an hour a day or two hours a day or whatever.
1:09:37
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
1:09:38
But again, she has the luxury of, of that time because it, this is her job.
1:09:41
Yeah.
1:09:42
You know, I, I I hear you.
1:09:43
And it's, we, we found ourselves in this interesting position
1:09:47
when we first moved to Germany.
1:09:48
So we, we put some horses on a plane and we took 'em to Germany and we weren't
1:09:54
gonna show up in Germany and buy a farm.
1:09:57
And we were still running the ranch in Texas.
1:09:59
And all that programming was still going on.
1:10:01
I was actually commuting back and forth and so we still
1:10:04
had horses in Texas as well.
1:10:06
And when we landed in Germany, we were like, okay, young kids,
1:10:10
not, not a farm apartment board.
1:10:13
The horses find the best place, but okay, you show up with six horses.
1:10:17
You, you, you beggars can't be choosers.
1:10:19
You've gotta find the barn that will take six slots.
1:10:22
And so, alright, so, and
1:10:25
David Lichman: real, real estate is a huge pro scarcity in, in,
1:10:28
in Germany and Switzerland.
1:10:29
And except when you is
1:10:30
Rupert Isaacson: sorry
1:10:31
David Lichman: barn that there aren't big, huge fields.
1:10:34
Rupert Isaacson: Well, ironically there are, but there's loads of them actually.
1:10:40
But there's a culture in the horse world there where horses go out in the summer
1:10:46
and they don't go out in the winter.
1:10:47
Mm.
1:10:48
And they go out in the winter only in what they call a paddock, which is like a sand
1:10:55
lock where they don't even put a, like a round be, and they just kind of stand
1:11:00
around for two hours and then the rest of the time they go back and they're stable.
1:11:04
And so we found ourselves in that situation, and this was
1:11:09
really interesting for us.
1:11:11
So me and Iliana went, whoa, like this is the, now we really
1:11:15
get what people are up against.
1:11:16
And we had this like super grumpy barn owner who's like, it's this is the
1:11:20
way and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1:11:21
I'm like, okay, well you, where else are we gonna go?
1:11:22
So what we did is we came up with all these little strategies.
1:11:26
Now an obvious one for us was ride one, lead two, ride, one lead.
1:11:30
You know, because big forests, no gates, no fences.
1:11:37
Easy trail riding very easy to ride, you know, exercise your whole hurt.
1:11:41
But you, you're not gonna do that for eight hours.
1:11:44
Right.
1:11:45
You know?
1:11:45
And if a horse is gonna stand in a stable, you, he needs to be moving
1:11:48
for a long time to be happy to chill.
1:11:50
And plus, where's he getting that social time?
1:11:52
Where's he getting that touch?
1:11:54
So one thing we did do, we did, we came up with two strategies that really
1:11:57
worked, which we now try to get people to do, but we understand that the culture
1:12:02
of their barn may or may not allow it.
1:12:04
But the first one is what we call crazy time, where we would
1:12:07
put our horses together in the arena and, and put up fences.
1:12:14
And they all jump.
1:12:15
So we, we put these very wide, long fences and we'd encourage them to just have fun.
1:12:19
I didn't care if they jumped.
1:12:20
I didn't care if they didn't jump, you know?
1:12:22
And then every two minutes I'd change the thing, make it a zigzag, make it
1:12:26
wonky, put a big butter in the middle, you know, chuck a yoga ball at them as
1:12:30
they, you know, anything I could do.
1:12:32
And I came up with this idea of I'm no longer a horse trainer.
1:12:35
I'm a horse entertainer.
1:12:36
And because you know, the worst problem is boredom.
1:12:39
Mm-hmm.
1:12:40
And the in about 20 minutes of crazy time, which is also social time.
1:12:44
And they'd stop and they'd roll and they'd stop and groom each other,
1:12:48
and then they'd bugger off again.
1:12:49
And then, and I learned that there was a lovely rhythm to this, and I realized
1:12:53
I could do this therapeutically.
1:12:54
I could bring autistic kids into this and we could calculate.
1:12:58
The distance that they were going down, the long side and how long
1:13:01
it took them, and how long it takes me and how long it takes.
1:13:04
And then we get the cell phone out, we do distance over time, and we get speed.
1:13:07
Wow.
1:13:08
And then we can calculate heights and distances and weights and team building
1:13:11
and horsemanship and blah, blah, blah.
1:13:13
And suddenly I had like a whole therapeutic program just with that
1:13:16
so I could do crazy time all day with my horses and get paid for it.
1:13:19
But then I realized, oh, well not all barn owners will let you do that.
1:13:23
Or what if you've only got one horse?
1:13:25
So then we also realized, ah, and what if you're one person?
1:13:29
So in Germany they have this really good tradition called a, which means somebody
1:13:36
who shares your horse, basically with the idea that because horses are often
1:13:40
stabled and standing there bored, you get other people to come in and ride them.
1:13:45
And as you know, in many horse cultures of my culture, I, you can't touch my horse.
1:13:50
No one else can touch my horse.
1:13:51
But
1:13:52
David Lichman: we have it, we have it here.
1:13:53
Half lease.
1:13:54
We call it a
1:13:54
Rupert Isaacson: half lease, right?
1:13:55
Exactly.
1:13:56
But not everybody does it.
1:13:57
And so what we did was we encouraged, we created basically
1:14:02
a tribe around our horses.
1:14:05
And so we could be pretty sure that in the course of a day, in the
1:14:10
winter, various people would come in and do various things with them.
1:14:16
Pretty regularly.
1:14:17
So they, they were just entertained someone.
1:14:19
Some of it was riding, some of it was taking them for a walk.
1:14:21
Some of it was a scratch.
1:14:22
Some of it was crazy time.
1:14:23
Some it was in hand work.
1:14:24
Some of it was lunging, some of it was this, some of it was that.
1:14:26
But someone was gonna show up and do something nice.
1:14:30
And so now we train people how to build these tribes and say, okay,
1:14:34
David, you've only got one horse.
1:14:35
And Sharon over there, she's got one horse and you know, Walter over,
1:14:39
there's got two horses and a mini and you're all in the same barn.
1:14:43
Why don't you get together and do this tribally?
1:14:47
And the idea of non-demanding time, you know, when I was in Mongolia,
1:14:51
hanging out with horse tribes there, well, that's what you do.
1:14:55
'cause you're living in a tent, a ga, a big yurt.
1:14:59
And the horses are just kind of there.
1:15:01
They're just all around you.
1:15:02
So of course you're spending undemanding time with your horse.
1:15:06
'cause you walk out your daughter to take a pee and there's a horse
1:15:09
standing there and you say, oh, hello.
1:15:10
And you go to get the water from the, the river and there's
1:15:13
five horses standing there.
1:15:15
And you go to get firewood and the horses come with you to
1:15:18
check out what you're doing.
1:15:19
And so just your daily chores, just your daily, it's, it's just
1:15:23
you sit outside, strumming your guitar, the horses are there.
1:15:26
Because that's your culture, that's your life.
1:15:28
And realize, well, that's where the whole thing began was with tribes and groups
1:15:32
of people just living with their horses.
1:15:36
And we've created these crazy sort of artificial environments
1:15:40
based on old cavalry.
1:15:43
Old cavalry barracks.
1:15:44
Really?
1:15:45
That's sort of what those bonds are.
1:15:47
David Lichman: Yeah.
1:15:47
Rupert Isaacson: You know, but even those old cavalry barracks,
1:15:50
those horses moved all day.
1:15:52
That was the first thing.
1:15:53
So when you put them in the box at night, they're like pretty happy to chill.
1:15:56
And they were doing stuff in formation, so they had a lot of social time and they
1:16:00
went on field maneuvers all the time.
1:16:02
So they were out in nature.
1:16:04
There's
1:16:04
a
1:16:04
David Lichman: thing that, there was a thing, like my first
1:16:06
horses that I saw tie stalls.
1:16:09
Yeah.
1:16:10
You know, they stood, they, they didn't move at all, but, you know, they, they,
1:16:14
those, those were working horses that those tie stalls were created from
1:16:18
horses that were grateful for the rest.
1:16:20
Right.
1:16:21
They, they've been working all day.
1:16:22
They just wanted Yeah.
1:16:23
Power
1:16:23
Rupert Isaacson: horses and all of that.
1:16:24
Yeah.
1:16:24
David Lichman: Yeah, yeah.
1:16:25
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:16:25
David Lichman: I think, you know, there's a couple of things that happened, you
1:16:29
know, for, for better and for worse.
1:16:31
When, when the, when the horses when the horses were needed
1:16:35
for work or transportation.
1:16:38
So let's say prior to 1900 Mm.
1:16:41
Yes, there was a lot of, you know, crap being done to horses, but essentially.
1:16:47
The, there was, there was, there's, there was an amount of connection
1:16:52
to the horses that was required because you had to rely on them.
1:16:55
Absolutely.
1:16:56
You know, and there, you know, there were all these military ways of doing
1:16:59
it with forest and all this stuff.
1:17:01
Th those, those bad things existed, but the core of, of trying to find, have a
1:17:06
relationship with the animal that lives with you, you know, next to the cow, but
1:17:09
pulls the plow, but also takes you to church on Sunday, whatever the, these,
1:17:13
these things were there and then when the horse became just you know, a, a pastime
1:17:17
and not required for construction, I think that's the piece that got lost.
1:17:21
Yes.
1:17:22
So we end up with the horses in the stalls and nobody caring and
1:17:24
showing up and take a lesson and you and spurring 'em to go and just,
1:17:28
you, you know, you gotta do this.
1:17:30
Gotta only have an hour.
1:17:31
I think that culturally came when we, we didn't have to have a relationship
1:17:35
with the horses because you know, it, it didn't ma it without the relationship.
1:17:38
We weren't having so much fun.
1:17:40
But when we relied on the horse, we, you know, he had to, we had to have
1:17:45
a certain amount of empathy within.
1:17:46
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:17:47
And if you think about it, if you, if you have to ride from, you know, your house
1:17:50
to the local town, to the dry goods store.
1:17:55
Many, many hours you're spending with your horse right there.
1:17:57
It's maybe gonna take you two hours to get to town.
1:18:00
Then you're gonna do your rounds in town.
1:18:02
That's gonna take you two to three hours.
1:18:04
Then little visit to the saloon.
1:18:05
Okay.
1:18:06
Horses hanging out with some other horses.
1:18:08
Then you come out, or, or church horses hang out with other
1:18:12
horses and then you come back and then it's a couple hours home.
1:18:14
You've been with that horse all day.
1:18:16
All day.
1:18:17
Right.
1:18:17
And it's interesting too.
1:18:18
Yeah.
1:18:18
People make a lot of bones about, oh, it was also bad back then, was it?
1:18:23
I'm sure there were bad people, but that was where horsemanship was at.
1:18:27
Its apogee.
1:18:28
There was a lot of fantastic horsemanship back then and a lot of
1:18:31
people who were genuinely loving and attached to their horses, probably
1:18:38
more than they were to their children.
1:18:40
David Lichman: Yeah.
1:18:40
Rupert Isaacson: You know, and
1:18:41
David Lichman: so that, so in this century that's where, you know, Tom
1:18:44
Dorens and Ray Hunt and those people were, they, they were bringing back.
1:18:48
That piece.
1:18:50
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:18:50
David Lichman: That, that got, that got eliminated by the culture.
1:18:53
And so that's, that's, you know, I think we're lucky.
1:18:55
You know, Dr.
1:18:56
Miller wrote this book called The Revolution in Horsemanship,
1:18:59
but it came, it, you know, hi.
1:19:00
His thing was that it came out of three things.
1:19:02
One is the, that the the, the population of horse is largely
1:19:08
women and women are not gonna put up with the unempathetic approach.
1:19:12
The, the diss dissemination of the information is now much easier to
1:19:18
see and, and to get the information about how to have a relationship.
1:19:21
And the third is the prominence of these few characters that, that, that had it
1:19:29
and were willing to share it, you know?
1:19:30
Mm-hmm.
1:19:30
Tom Lawrence and, and the, the Dorrance brothers in general.
1:19:33
So, in the, in the current, in my, you know, I feel like I'm luxury, luxury.
1:19:37
I, I have the luxury I'm floating on the, on the work that they've done, and
1:19:41
on the, in the, I am in the right time because people are hungry for this.
1:19:45
But you know, I just, for me, I just, you know, I, I'm, I'm not I, I didn't, I,
1:19:50
there's a couple of things I invented very couple of small things that are original
1:19:55
in thought, but I, I feel like I'm, I'm shining, I'm reflecting the light.
1:20:02
Rupert Isaacson: What, what are those things?
1:20:03
What are those things that you invented?
1:20:05
David Lichman: Oh, God.
1:20:06
I.
1:20:07
I can't think of it.
1:20:09
Probably haven't invented anything.
1:20:11
That's nice.
1:20:12
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:20:12
David Lichman: Well, I mean, the, the way that I, I mean, I
1:20:15
didn't even invent these things.
1:20:17
Every once in a while I'll be teaching and I go, huh, you know what?
1:20:20
Nobody's doing that.
1:20:21
I figured that out myself.
1:20:23
Huh.
1:20:24
But I don't, I don't typically take pride on it, but I, I noticed okay.
1:20:29
The, so the one thing that about about circles, I, I kind of
1:20:33
changed the way that, that we teach circles because they don't have
1:20:36
a round pen or, or a circus ring.
1:20:39
So the common way of teaching us a horse to be with you on a circle at Liberty was
1:20:43
to teach him, you know, teach him about the circle, teach him about moving his
1:20:47
hindquarters and when he, and, and use and facing you with the hindquarters moving.
1:20:52
So what I noticed is that people were doing something
1:20:55
called partial disengagement.
1:20:56
So the horse is thinking about leaving you and you know, okay, you know,
1:20:59
you've, you've tuned up my quarter yields, I'm I'll, I'm, I'm back.
1:21:02
I'm back.
1:21:03
And pretty, it doesn't take more than like two laps before the horses
1:21:06
figure out, you know, there's nothing behind this partial disengagement.
1:21:10
I might as well just go.
1:21:12
And they do, you know, not maliciously, but there's nothing, nothing.
1:21:16
There's nothing holding them there.
1:21:18
So I said, let's change their mind.
1:21:20
Let's, let's make this thing that is us the best place on earth.
1:21:26
So that when they arrive here, we make a big deal out of it.
1:21:30
And when they think about leaving, make it a little uncomfortable, but don't then
1:21:35
say, okay, don't think about leaving, but keep going on this stupid circle.
1:21:39
They say, Hey, hey, remember me and then bring them back to you and say this, you
1:21:44
know, why were, what were you thinking?
1:21:46
There's nothing out there.
1:21:47
Everything good is here.
1:21:49
So I changed the paradigm about these partial disengagements and said, you're,
1:21:52
you're, you know, there is no try.
1:21:55
You are, you either do or do not, right?
1:21:57
Yeah.
1:21:58
I, you, you're, you're, you're with me or you're not with me.
1:22:01
If you're not with me, you're gonna come back here and
1:22:03
find out how good it is here.
1:22:04
Mm-hmm.
1:22:04
And if you're with me, I don't have to, I don't have to keep nagging
1:22:07
you and partially disengaging you and, and you, and you end up just
1:22:11
dulling them to that request.
1:22:14
So
1:22:14
Rupert Isaacson: that, can you now through that do the liberty out on a beach?
1:22:18
David Lichman: Yep.
1:22:20
Rupert Isaacson: And can you do that with a group of horses?
1:22:22
David Lichman: Yep.
1:22:23
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:22:23
So, and is, I'll tell you that the key that they're, that you get them
1:22:27
focused on you being now, okay, so what happens if they're on that
1:22:32
beach and unforeseen circumstances?
1:22:35
A big spook or a,
1:22:40
yeah.
1:22:41
Let's, let's go with that one.
1:22:42
A big spook.
1:22:42
David Lichman: Okay.
1:22:43
So I'll tell you that for, for 10 years, I, I played with these
1:22:47
liberty horses and arenas and did demonstrations and stuff, and, and I
1:22:51
never wanted to take him to the beach.
1:22:53
I just thought this is an impossible thing.
1:22:56
So here, these horses have been with me for 10 years.
1:22:58
They're doing all these formations, all this liberty work.
1:23:00
They, they know these were the horses that, that I took to Texas.
1:23:04
At your place, those three
1:23:07
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:23:07
David Lichman: And
1:23:08
Rupert Isaacson: they were great.
1:23:09
David Lichman: I decided I'm going to, I, I'm gonna go to the beach and see, okay,
1:23:14
I just wanna see if it's, if it works.
1:23:16
I was too afraid to go.
1:23:17
So I said, so I hired, I, hi.
1:23:19
I got two friends to come as outriders.
1:23:21
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:23:22
David Lichman: And, and, and I said, I'm just gonna, you know, if, if they take
1:23:26
off, you have to go down and, you know, round him up and bring him back to me.
1:23:30
And those horses never thought about leaving.
1:23:34
I, I, I, it blew me away.
1:23:35
It wasn't like I, I felt like I had trained something.
1:23:39
I just, they never thought about leaving.
1:23:41
And the, the outrider said, you know, we're bored.
1:23:43
Can we go on a trail ride?
1:23:45
And I said, sure.
1:23:46
And they went down the beach and my horses didn't follow them.
1:23:48
They stayed with me.
1:23:48
That's
1:23:49
Rupert Isaacson: interesting.
1:23:49
That's interesting.
1:23:50
David Lichman: And, and I didn't, you know, yes I did all the things that I
1:23:54
said this would work for, but I, I sort of didn't believe it until it happened to me.
1:24:00
It was like, they surprised me with how good, how great it was.
1:24:04
Rupert Isaacson: That's interesting that you said that they didn't follow
1:24:06
the other horses down the beach.
1:24:08
Now you of course, have built how many years of relationship with these
1:24:12
horses by the time you did that?
1:24:13
David Lichman: 10 years.
1:24:14
Yeah.
1:24:14
Yeah,
1:24:14
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
1:24:14
So you were a decade in right.
1:24:17
With this particular
1:24:17
David Lichman: group, but I, but I did take my next group.
1:24:19
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:24:21
As you may know, if you've been following my work, we are also horsey folk here.
1:24:25
And we have been training horses for many, many years in the manner of
1:24:30
the old classical dressage masters.
1:24:34
This is something which is often very confusing for people.
1:24:37
We shine a light on that murky, difficult stuff and make it crystal clear.
1:24:42
If you'd like to learn to train your horse in the manner of the old masters and
1:24:47
really have fun and joy for you and your equine, go to our website, heliosharmony.
1:24:53
com Sign up as a premium member.
1:24:55
and begin to take the Helios Harmony course, which will take you from zero
1:25:00
to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing on the spot in hand on the ground.
1:25:06
And then from there, you can develop out to anywhere you want to.
1:25:10
Heliosharmony.
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com to unlock the secrets of the old masters.
1:25:16
David Lichman: So, so those horses have passed and I go
1:25:17
the next group and I wasn't so interested in doing the beach work.
1:25:21
I wasn't, I, you know, I, my focus had changed a little bit, but I decided to
1:25:24
take 'em and just see what would happen.
1:25:25
And they didn't leave either.
1:25:27
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:25:27
David Lichman: They didn't care.
1:25:30
I did, there was one instance where I, where I had horses take off at the beach.
1:25:34
So my friend Meredith brought her horse and she was gonna film me.
1:25:38
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:25:39
David Lichman: So she filmed me.
1:25:41
Of
1:25:41
Rupert Isaacson: course, that day they take off.
1:25:42
Yeah,
1:25:42
David Lichman: yeah.
1:25:43
No, they were, they were fine with filming.
1:25:45
Yeah.
1:25:46
And we didn't get much good footage because she was holding her horse,
1:25:49
and horse kept nudging her and the camera's going like this.
1:25:52
And that wasn't so success.
1:25:53
So now I got my horses and they're, they're at the beach grass.
1:25:57
They're sitting around me and I said, okay, Meredith, now it's your turn.
1:25:59
I'll get the camera.
1:26:01
And she's playing with her horse.
1:26:02
I said, just turn 'em loose.
1:26:03
What's he gonna do?
1:26:04
He's not, where is he gonna go?
1:26:06
You know, enjoy this freedom.
1:26:08
And she, so, okay, so she turns him loose and he runs over to me.
1:26:16
Okay, we'll try it again.
1:26:18
I send him back there.
1:26:19
He runs over to me.
1:26:22
Third time he runs over my horses and they get a thing going and they're gone
1:26:28
over the sand dunes and I can't see 'em.
1:26:30
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:26:30
David Lichman: Oh boy.
1:26:31
We, I have made a huge mistake.
1:26:32
'cause this goes to the parking lot and then that goes to the
1:26:35
road and god knows where they are.
1:26:37
So we, where
1:26:37
Rupert Isaacson: is this by the way?
1:26:38
David Lichman: Is that in point Reyes?
1:26:40
In, in Oh, I
1:26:41
Rupert Isaacson: know, point Reyes.
1:26:41
Wow, that's beautiful
1:26:42
David Lichman: there.
1:26:42
Yeah.
1:26:43
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:26:44
David Lichman: So we, so I climb up the sand dunes and I see Scotty
1:26:46
there and and I have my stock whip.
1:26:49
They're trained to come to the sound of the stock whip because it's very loud
1:26:52
and, you know, and, and I see Scotty there eating and the others are like
1:26:56
wandering down towards the parking lot.
1:26:58
And I said, if I can get Scotty, I think the others will come back.
1:27:02
So I called him and cracked the whip.
1:27:03
He came over, I put the thing around his neck.
1:27:05
The others came back and followed us back to the beach.
1:27:07
It was, it was not, not the panic that I thought it would be, but, you
1:27:11
know, if you're worried, bring, bring a couple of out riders, you know?
1:27:14
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:27:15
David Lichman: They're not gonna, they're not gonna outrun the ridden horses.
1:27:18
I mean, eventually they'll, they'll come to a stop.
1:27:22
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:27:22
Yeah.
1:27:22
It's, and I suppose choose your, choose your environment.
1:27:25
So that Yeah.
1:27:26
The, the freeway isn't right there.
1:27:28
David Lichman: My, yeah.
1:27:28
My, my first experience with horses on the beach, I did not do well.
1:27:32
I, I, there were people on the beach and the horses get scared of the,
1:27:35
you know, they do get scared of the waves coming in and they mm-hmm.
1:27:39
You know, so I have, I teach people how to not be in the place where your horse
1:27:43
is gonna run when you get scared of the waves and don't get knocked over and hurt.
1:27:46
But, you know, I made a lot of mistakes.
1:27:48
There were people bathing there.
1:27:49
It's like, oh my God, I killed somebody.
1:27:53
So we, I'll tell you a Mike Farney story.
1:27:56
Maybe, maybe this will be a good story for the end of of our visit on the beach.
1:28:00
It's a, my very first clinic with Dr.
1:28:02
Zeligs on the beach.
1:28:03
I did after Casey, I did one myself with horses and sea lions.
1:28:07
And so in preparation for going to the beach, I told the students, okay,
1:28:11
we're gonna come up to the sand dunes, and all I want you to do is just
1:28:15
stand there and have your horse relax.
1:28:17
At that point, you don't have to go near the water.
1:28:20
You don't have to go in the water.
1:28:22
Just let them see it.
1:28:25
We have lots of time, we have days to do this.
1:28:28
You don't have to get anything done.
1:28:30
Just be there and make sure that they're okay with it.
1:28:32
'cause some of them are terrified.
1:28:34
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
1:28:35
David Lichman: So I'm gonna go in the water.
1:28:36
So I go to get a wetsuit on, and I'm not experienced with this, and I'm stuck.
1:28:40
I don't have any talcom power.
1:28:41
I can't get the thing on.
1:28:42
And I come out, you know, 20 minutes later, and Mike Farney,
1:28:45
who was a brilliant instructor at the time, he was helping me.
1:28:48
And Mike Farney is a two time Olympic skier.
1:28:53
He's, he is doing the, the real, the giant slalom.
1:28:56
He's like the adrenaline junkie.
1:28:59
He's, and
1:28:59
Rupert Isaacson: he's also a big time Pelli instructor.
1:29:01
David Lichman: Yeah, he was.
1:29:03
Okay.
1:29:04
So Mike's there and I say, Mike, just make sure they don't,
1:29:06
you know, don't do anything.
1:29:08
Just let 'em just sit on the dunes.
1:29:11
Well, I'm getting dressed.
1:29:12
I come out, Mike Farney is stripped down to his skis in the water, jumping around
1:29:18
with all the students and their horses.
1:29:22
He's, he's a risk taker, right?
1:29:25
So, yeah, I was a little too cautious.
1:29:28
But yeah, Mike Farney later, he later got a pilot's license and I said, you
1:29:33
are the last guy I wanna fly with.
1:29:38
But I, I think you know how the, the beach is tough for some horses.
1:29:43
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:29:43
I mean, there's, there's a lot of things.
1:29:45
There's wind, there's the waves, there's, as you say, people, dogs, flappy things.
1:29:52
David Lichman: And those waves in Northern California are massive.
1:29:55
Rupert Isaacson: They're big.
1:29:55
Yeah.
1:29:56
I.
1:29:57
What, what's your way of getting the horse used to the waves
1:30:01
and that kind of buffering wind that you get there without them,
1:30:06
David Lichman: the wind not so much, but the waves, you know,
1:30:09
it's like attacking their feet.
1:30:11
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:30:12
David Lichman: And so the, the biggest advice for this mm-hmm.
1:30:15
Is be prepared to get wet.
1:30:19
Because if that thing, if that wave is coming up and you're trying to tell
1:30:22
the horse it's okay, just go in there.
1:30:23
But you don't wanna get your shoes wet and you jump out.
1:30:25
You have just set the wrong example buddy.
1:30:28
He is not going in if you are bailing, he said, you're trying to get me to go in
1:30:32
and you won't go in, so you're gonna get your boots full of water if you, you know,
1:30:35
Rupert Isaacson: okay,
1:30:36
David Lichman: do this correctly.
1:30:36
Plus you'll be standing in the ocean side.
1:30:39
So if they do get scared by a wave, they run away from you.
1:30:41
They don't knock you over.
1:30:42
'cause I have been knocked over in the surf by horses trying
1:30:44
to get out of the wave, A wave.
1:30:47
So that's the message.
1:30:48
And, and you know, the simple answer, just go sideways along the shore,
1:30:52
let the shore be like a fence.
1:30:54
And eventually they'll get tired of, you know, backing up and
1:30:57
they'll see, oh, he lapped my foot.
1:30:59
And some horses go straight in.
1:31:01
Some, some horses you better have a line on because they will go
1:31:04
from point Reyes and try to swim to Japan, or at least Hawaii.
1:31:09
Okay.
1:31:10
I don't, I don't know what it is, but they get in and they
1:31:12
just go, it really scares you.
1:31:15
Rupert Isaacson: And what, what have you done in that situation?
1:31:18
David Lichman: Had a line.
1:31:19
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:31:21
David Lichman: Thankfully I had a line.
1:31:22
It doesn't happen that often, but just, you know.
1:31:25
Beware.
1:31:26
Most, most of the time your horse is terrified of the wave coming up and
1:31:29
you're gonna spend all day trying to get 'em to just be calm about the
1:31:32
water, splashing 'em on their legs.
1:31:34
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:31:34
David Lichman: And there, there are a few that dive in and wanna
1:31:36
roll, which is, which is fun.
1:31:39
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
1:31:41
David Lichman: And if you have horseshoes, make sure you rinse the
1:31:42
salt off because they will rust.
1:31:45
Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah.
1:31:46
Good, good advice.
1:31:49
So David, what, where are you heading to now with your horses?
1:31:51
What's the next stage in your career, in your adventure?
1:31:55
David Lichman: Well, I had this desire to perform
1:32:00
and I worked for a year to go on America's Got Talent.
1:32:04
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:32:05
David Lichman: And I worked very hard every day, all day on
1:32:09
all aspects of the performance.
1:32:12
And I got people to help, brilliant people to help me.
1:32:16
And on the day of the, the show, they were the day before they said
1:32:21
we're gonna do the the B roll footage and also the background story.
1:32:26
They, you know, they usually play a little background story.
1:32:28
Mm-hmm.
1:32:28
So, Pinos back, because they'd seen my it's mini horse, his thing for the act
1:32:34
was he was gonna, he wanted to meet Heidi Klum and he wanted to give a kiss
1:32:38
to Heidi, give a kiss to Heidi Klum.
1:32:40
This was, and
1:32:41
Rupert Isaacson: you, you had Heidi Klum on the end of your phone that
1:32:43
you could ask her to come and do this.
1:32:45
David Lichman: Well, she was one of the judges.
1:32:46
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, got it.
1:32:48
David Lichman: So I, we set it up that he, he answers the phone.
1:32:51
So I picked up the phone, oh, it's Heidi Klum.
1:32:53
She wants you to come, you know, and he's all excited and the whole
1:32:56
big long 10 minute thing that I did.
1:32:58
And and so they set it up and, and they said he's going day before, he's gonna
1:33:02
be looking for Heidi here at the, at the facility where they filmed the show.
1:33:07
So they had him looking in, in trunks, you know, lighting trunks
1:33:11
and sticking his head in curtains.
1:33:13
They put up a computer and it showed pictures of her kissing other animals
1:33:16
so that he would be jealous, you know, and he did everything perfectly.
1:33:21
And I, and then my friends from big Horse Productions Eric Marinovich
1:33:26
he helped me and they were there and I said, let's, let's practice.
1:33:30
They were holding a poop.
1:33:31
He jumped through a hoop with paper and broke through the paper and even
1:33:35
practiced this in the, in the parking lot.
1:33:37
You know, I had to go find something that he could land on and not slip,
1:33:41
and everything was going so well.
1:33:43
And then the next day and when I went to pick him up, he was not
1:33:46
interested in taking any cookies.
1:33:49
Rupert Isaacson: Oh.
1:33:50
David Lichman: And this, and I don't know what was wrong, I think
1:33:53
later found that the people in the, in the stall next to her had
1:33:56
tossed a bunch of hay into his pen.
1:33:59
And, and he must have gotten sick on the hay because he, unlike him.
1:34:04
To, I mean, the, the, the last thing that will ever happen would
1:34:08
be that he would refuse a cookie.
1:34:09
He is, he is massively food motivated.
1:34:14
So I told the producers, I said, I can't do it.
1:34:18
You know, we did the rehearsal.
1:34:19
I said, he's not, he's not doing anything.
1:34:21
And they said, oh, you know, bad rehearsal, good show.
1:34:24
And he said, I'm not gonna do it.
1:34:26
But I will sit here and wait my turn.
1:34:29
And so you, you wait it's hurry up and wait in the movie and tv.
1:34:32
Mm-hmm.
1:34:32
Mm-hmm.
1:34:33
So around about, you know, two o'clock in the afternoon, he
1:34:35
started like asking for cookies and he started to pick up his ball.
1:34:39
And I thought maybe, maybe it'll work.
1:34:41
And that was probably a mistake because he really did not, he was not interested.
1:34:45
And
1:34:45
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
1:34:46
David Lichman: And it was quite, I had to, you know, buffoon it.
1:34:48
I had to, you know, do the stuff for him and make a thing out of it.
1:34:51
But it was quite embarrassing for me.
1:34:53
I don't care about being embarrassed.
1:34:55
I don't care about him not doing it.
1:34:56
What I care about is nobody got to see how brilliant he actually is.
1:35:00
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:35:00
David Lichman: You know, so that, that so much effort.
1:35:05
If somebody asked me to do it again, I would say, you know, I don't think
1:35:08
I could put that much effort into it.
1:35:10
It took so much effort and so I sort of lost a desire to perform.
1:35:16
And that leaves me, you know, with kind of a whole, which is why I started, you know,
1:35:21
maybe why I started doing more music.
1:35:24
And I've, and, and the music is taking that.
1:35:28
Piece for me.
1:35:29
So the horses are not actually doing that much at the moment, but the
1:35:32
teaching, the students are getting better and better and better.
1:35:35
And the students are carrying this stuff.
1:35:37
So my horsemanship is, is coming alive.
1:35:40
And my legacy, if there is one, is coming alive through the students, they're,
1:35:43
they're doing stuff that I can't do now.
1:35:47
Rupert Isaacson: Like what?
1:35:48
David Lichman: Well, just to certain maneuvers and certain you know,
1:35:51
I'm teaching them how to do off center circles, you know, where the
1:35:55
horse horse does a circle in his own, but you're not in the middle.
1:35:58
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:35:58
I,
1:35:59
David Lichman: I can't do that.
1:36:00
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:36:01
David Lichman: I mean, I know how to do it, but I don't, I I don't
1:36:04
have any horses that, that have done it, and I've never done it.
1:36:07
I, I taught people how to do it.
1:36:09
So.
1:36:10
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
1:36:10
Well, I think by teaching people how to do it, that is kind of doing it.
1:36:14
David Lichman: It is.
1:36:15
Yeah.
1:36:15
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:36:16
David Lichman: I, I can just point to them and say, look how good they're doing this.
1:36:18
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:36:19
David Lichman: Yeah.
1:36:19
Rupert Isaacson: So we haven't actually talked about your musical career at all.
1:36:23
So just for viewers and listeners, David Litman's also a pro
1:36:28
jazz guitarist as it happens.
1:36:30
'cause why not?
1:36:31
Why not add that to the list of things?
1:36:33
David Lichman: I
1:36:34
Rupert Isaacson: play
1:36:34
David Lichman: the bass guitar,
1:36:36
Rupert Isaacson: so if you are looking for a bassist, you know.
1:36:39
David Lichman: No, no.
1:36:40
Don't call me.
1:36:40
I'm too busy.
1:36:42
So, so the, the music thing took a turn a couple years ago for me.
1:36:47
Rupert Isaacson: Ah.
1:36:48
David Lichman: I decided I wanted to play some more and I started
1:36:50
playing and doing different stuff.
1:36:52
But the, this gal that we've just been talking about, Gabriela from Poland
1:36:57
I had no idea that she was a singer.
1:37:01
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:37:02
David Lichman: And she, she, she has extreme talent in singing jazz.
1:37:09
And we just started, you know, fooling around with it at some point.
1:37:13
And I said, oh my God, this is the missing piece for me.
1:37:19
So I've had to step up in what I am playing to be able
1:37:22
to play for her, what she
1:37:25
Rupert Isaacson: can't sing.
1:37:26
David Lichman: And yeah.
1:37:26
And she doesn't like rehearsing.
1:37:29
She does, you know, when I, I'm struggling, so I'll play a
1:37:32
piece like 10 times and she'll be going, God, that one again.
1:37:35
I said, okay, you don't have to sing it.
1:37:37
I just have to play it.
1:37:38
You go in the other room or go play with us, go play with Papino or something.
1:37:41
But, but, but what we came up with was this idea about playing the bass
1:37:48
and singing with no other instruments.
1:37:50
Rupert Isaacson: Ooh.
1:37:51
David Lichman: So this, it's as open and pure as you can get, puts tremendous
1:37:56
pressure on me to outline the harmonies, because the bass player usually just
1:38:00
plunking wing, boom, boom, boom.
1:38:01
I have to be able to outline the harmonies and played double stops and chords.
1:38:05
And I'm, I'm, it's, I'm growing in ways that I never thought I, I
1:38:08
could even, and there are people who can do it way better than me.
1:38:12
But I'm doing it.
1:38:13
Rupert Isaacson: That was Lemi Kilminster, wasn't it?
1:38:15
Of Motorhead.
1:38:16
He, he, he basically reinvented the bass guitar as a rhythm and lead guitar.
1:38:25
David Lichman: Yeah, yeah.
1:38:25
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:38:26
Yeah.
1:38:26
David Lichman: There's, there's tons of people doing it way better than me.
1:38:28
Now.
1:38:28
There's tapping and there's all kinds of, there's people doing it greater than me.
1:38:33
But I, but I have a purpose for doing it because I have, I
1:38:36
have to provide acomp for her.
1:38:38
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:38:39
David Lichman: And it's and it's really fun.
1:38:41
So that's what we're doing.
1:38:42
I'm doing that,
1:38:43
Rupert Isaacson: that Do we get to hear your music?
1:38:43
Where do we get to hear your music?
1:38:44
How do we hear your music?
1:38:47
David Lichman: I'll send you a clip.
1:38:48
You can put it on the
1:38:49
Rupert Isaacson: Is is, is it on YouTube?
1:38:50
Like, could people YouTube find it?
1:38:53
David Lichman: I hope not.
1:38:53
I'm embarrassed.
1:38:56
Rupert Isaacson: I'll tell you what, then your music gets mine.
1:38:59
'Cause I've got a band.
1:39:00
And yeah.
1:39:01
All right, we'll, we'll
1:39:02
David Lichman: I'll send you a clip and you can include it in the podcast if you
1:39:04
Rupert Isaacson: like.
1:39:04
Yeah, it'd be great.
1:39:05
That'd be great.
1:39:06
Love to meet Gabriela, making
1:39:08
David Lichman: sure.
1:39:08
Yeah.
1:39:08
Oh, you'll, I'm sure you will.
1:39:10
We are we're coming to Europe, actually.
1:39:13
But when are you gonna be here?
1:39:14
I'm gonna be there in end of June through August.
1:39:18
But I don't think we're gonna get to Spain.
1:39:20
We're getting close.
1:39:21
We're going to Avon.
1:39:23
We're gonna go see Fred Pinon.
1:39:24
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:39:26
David Lichman: But I don't
1:39:26
Rupert Isaacson: think you're just gonna go see him as a mate,
1:39:28
or you're gonna go see him as
1:39:30
a
1:39:30
Rupert Isaacson: professionally.
1:39:34
David Lichman: I don't know what the difference is, but he invited
1:39:36
Rupert Isaacson: so well, are you gonna go do a gig together or are you gonna
1:39:38
David Lichman: No, no, no, no.
1:39:39
Rupert Isaacson: All alright.
1:39:40
Alright.
1:39:40
David Lichman: We're gonna go.
1:39:41
I met him.
1:39:42
I met him when he first started Caval here.
1:39:45
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:39:46
David Lichman: And and they, they were so nice to me, but I
1:39:49
didn't think he even remembered because that's like 20 years ago.
1:39:52
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
1:39:52
David Lichman: yeah, yeah.
1:39:52
And, and when and when we connected they were so nice to me.
1:39:56
So, oh, come, we'll have lunch, we'll play with the horses.
1:39:59
We'll spend the day.
1:40:00
I mean it
1:40:01
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, they are extremely nice.
1:40:03
Those two.
1:40:03
David Lichman: Yeah.
1:40:05
Rupert Isaacson: I need to get them.
1:40:06
So I
1:40:07
David Lichman: don't know if it's still there, but in Austin so when Jennifer
1:40:10
closed her facility in, in Moss landing
1:40:12
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
1:40:13
David Lichman: Or I think one of her sea lions had already
1:40:16
gone to the zoo there, they were putting in a massive new exhibit.
1:40:19
Mm-hmm.
1:40:19
And I think the other three went.
1:40:21
So there was four of her sea lions from that are in the Houston Zoo.
1:40:25
And
1:40:26
Rupert Isaacson: are they
1:40:27
David Lichman: through a miracle?
1:40:29
Her top trainer got a job at the zoo.
1:40:32
So those animals, you know, her training is different anyway.
1:40:36
If they had to go and endure somebody else's, you know, weird training, it
1:40:40
wouldn't have been great for them.
1:40:41
But they have exactly the person that they know and the training that they know
1:40:45
Rupert Isaacson: serendipitous.
1:40:46
David Lichman: And when you go and when you're walking through the
1:40:49
Houston terminal, it's I forget what's the name of that terminal?
1:40:52
It was
1:40:53
Rupert Isaacson: Bush probably
1:40:56
David Lichman: it's,
1:40:56
Rupert Isaacson: it's,
1:40:57
David Lichman: you're right,
1:40:58
Rupert Isaacson: yes.
1:41:00
David Lichman: There was this massive wall advertising the zoo.
1:41:03
And I, one of those Sea Lion is giving someone a kiss in
1:41:06
the, is on the wall at Houston.
1:41:07
When you go in, you, well we
1:41:08
Rupert Isaacson: actually, I go to Houston Zoo quite often actually with Rowan.
1:41:12
Because the zoo's on thing,
1:41:13
David Lichman: they still advertise it there.
1:41:14
You'll see that, you know, that's one of Jennifer Sea Lion.
1:41:19
Rupert Isaacson: Well, you know, in the years that.
1:41:22
Have passed since you did that gig for us, which was, we were so grateful
1:41:26
for, I dunno if you know much about how the organization has grown, but
1:41:29
basically there's now three programs.
1:41:31
There's delivering this neuroscience neuroplasticity thing, horse
1:41:36
boy method, mounted with a kid movement method, no horse at all.
1:41:40
Do it in the home, do it in a school, do it wherever.
1:41:42
And then something called takin equine integration or the in hand
1:41:46
work, or the classical in hand work as its own therapy for people with
1:41:49
trauma, adult autism, and so on.
1:41:51
And these all happened organically, but suffice to say, now we work
1:41:56
in about 40 countries and we serve probably about 300,000 families.
1:42:01
Wow.
1:42:02
So, not me personally, but the people that we've trained to do what we do.
1:42:06
Yeah.
1:42:07
And in some cases, you know, governments are getting on board and things.
1:42:10
I have to ask you this, would you do another fundraiser for us at some point?
1:42:14
Sure.
1:42:14
Whatever, whatever it is.
1:42:16
David Lichman: Yeah.
1:42:16
Yeah.
1:42:16
I mean, I don't have the, I never have the entertaining horse.
1:42:20
I, I, I could bring you the mini horse.
1:42:22
Rupert Isaacson: I think that would be fantastic
1:42:23
David Lichman: because I think he, he he could, I was gonna go, I was gonna
1:42:26
bring all the horses to the International Liberty Horse Association this fall.
1:42:30
But I, I just, well, I, I, I backed myself off of it.
1:42:34
I just decided it's not, it's not the right answer for me anymore.
1:42:38
And I don't think it's fair to the horses to make them
1:42:40
travel for three, three weeks.
1:42:42
Rupert Isaacson: Well, 2, 2, 2 of our best campuses for our programs
1:42:47
are actually in Northern California.
1:42:49
Square Peg Foundation in Half Moon Bay, and then they have
1:42:54
a second campus in Sonoma.
1:42:57
And they do just sterling work.
1:43:01
They're a registered mental health provider now for San Mateo County.
1:43:04
And, but bootstrapped up from nothing.
1:43:07
Yeah, woman, A woman called Joel Dunlap.
1:43:08
David Lichman: Yeah, I could do something down
1:43:09
Rupert Isaacson: there.
1:43:10
Could we do something there for them?
1:43:11
David Lichman: Sure, sure.
1:43:12
Yeah.
1:43:12
Rupert Isaacson: There's a beach.
1:43:13
You could do something on the beach.
1:43:15
David Lichman: Maybe
1:43:16
Rupert Isaacson: your mini doesn't swim to Honolulu that
1:43:20
David Lichman: they I'm going to Sonoma in two weeks.
1:43:22
Actually.
1:43:23
I, a woman that I know that I, you know, used to help her with her
1:43:26
horses is living down there and I'm just gonna go visit with her.
1:43:30
Rupert Isaacson: That would be fantastic.
1:43:31
If you, if you'd be willing, that would be because they're, they're such
1:43:34
an amazing, because it's, 'cause it's gone from, you know, us and our ranch
1:43:39
to now us more training people and all these incredible facilities who
1:43:45
do what we do who are the real heroes.
1:43:48
And
1:43:49
David Lichman: I, that's what I used to say.
1:43:50
I mean, I said it at your place.
1:43:51
I said, I'm not doing the hard work.
1:43:52
You know, t's doing the hard work.
1:43:55
I'm just bringing awareness and raising a little money, but the, the day-to-day,
1:43:58
the hard work is being done by somebody.
1:44:00
Way more dedicated than me.
1:44:01
Yeah.
1:44:02
So this is, this is what I can do.
1:44:03
So I'm doing it.
1:44:05
But the idea is you know, I love it.
1:44:06
And I, and I'm especially drawn to the work being done with veterans.
1:44:11
We have two organizations that, that I raised money for.
1:44:14
When I came back from that tour, I, I I did a mustache challenge.
1:44:18
I said, if I raise $10,000, I'll shave off this mustache.
1:44:22
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:44:23
David Lichman: And I raised 10,000 in the first day.
1:44:29
Well, this is Sure.
1:44:29
Rupert Isaacson: A lot of people rose to that occasion.
1:44:31
Yeah.
1:44:32
David Lichman: You know, well there was one very, one
1:44:34
very generous donor actually.
1:44:36
She said, my husband just sold his antique car collection.
1:44:39
He was looking for something to do with the money.
1:44:41
He's a veteran and he, you know, he wants to put this, so, so all that
1:44:45
money got raised on the first day and I said, well, what are we gonna do next?
1:44:47
So we, the guy that runs one of the other organizations, he was a
1:44:51
Vietnam vet and he had a mustache.
1:44:53
And he said, I've kept this mustache in honor of my buddy who was killed
1:44:58
next to me in the helicopter, was shot and killed, and I've been wearing this
1:45:02
mustache commemoration event, but if we get to 25,000, I'll shave mine too.
1:45:06
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:45:07
David Lichman: So we got to 25,000 and we both shaved our mustaches
1:45:10
and I thought, I'm liberated.
1:45:12
I never have to wear this thing again.
1:45:13
And then three days later I said, I can't look at myself in the mirror.
1:45:20
Rupert Isaacson: Did you have to wear a merkin?
1:45:21
Like a little, A little?
1:45:22
David Lichman: No, I did not.
1:45:23
There's a word that not many people know, by the
1:45:25
Rupert Isaacson: way.
1:45:25
Indeed, indeed, indeed.
1:45:26
And it doesn't actually mean that my friends, but you can go look it up.
1:45:30
We won't tell you.
1:45:31
David Lichman: I know what it means.
1:45:32
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:45:34
David Lichman: Why
1:45:34
Rupert Isaacson: the audience?
1:45:35
I know.
1:45:35
You know what it means.
1:45:36
Yeah.
1:45:37
David Lichman: I know what it means because my British friend
1:45:40
told me that, that George W.
1:45:42
Bush used to say he was proud to be American.
1:45:45
Rupert Isaacson: That's where I was going.
1:45:46
Yeah.
1:45:47
Every, every Brit that hears that, me, American, you
1:45:50
American, is like, I don't know.
1:45:52
Are you wearing one?
1:45:56
Do you, are you buying them off Amazon?
1:45:57
I mean, what do you do?
1:46:00
They come in 24 packs.
1:46:01
I mean, yeah.
1:46:02
David Lichman: Can
1:46:03
Rupert Isaacson: I choose different, different
1:46:03
David Lichman: colors?
1:46:04
Different colors?
1:46:08
Yeah.
1:46:08
So, so the, the veterans, the thi the work I've seen done
1:46:11
with veterans is mind blowing.
1:46:14
Absolutely mind.
1:46:15
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:46:15
Oh yeah.
1:46:16
Without a doubt.
1:46:17
Without a doubt.
1:46:17
We, we fell into it.
1:46:19
We, and we work with, you know, so many people with
1:46:21
different groups of trauma also.
1:46:23
So we work with the, the, the Bundes Fair, the German army, the US Air
1:46:27
Force, the Dutch Defense Force with a ex-Marine group in, in the uk.
1:46:32
But I find that also one of the really unsung or underserved
1:46:38
populations for this is it's not just so we, we don't just do veterans.
1:46:43
We do active duty and active duty and their families, particularly
1:46:47
the Special forces guys.
1:46:48
'cause they're not allowed to talk about what they did.
1:46:50
So they have to come home and not talk.
1:46:55
You can imagine that's a recipe for massive success in a family, right?
1:46:58
So we run these camps in East Germany aimed at putting that back together.
1:47:04
So work with the kids, work with the, work with the, you know, service
1:47:09
people themselves and altogether, but it's also first responders.
1:47:15
And our original ranch in Texas, we kind of moved the operation
1:47:21
over to a friend's place, literally two minutes down the road.
1:47:24
And they're still running with one of our original horses,
1:47:28
actually still still rolling there.
1:47:31
And that happens to be run by a couple where he is a very senior
1:47:35
fireman in the Austin Fire Department.
1:47:38
And I, you know, I didn't realize he'd say, oh, they're firemen.
1:47:41
Yeah, they're all heroes, da da da, police, great first
1:47:43
responders, paramedics.
1:47:44
But then you actually talk to them about what they do and it's like, man, you are
1:47:48
just scraping brains off the freeway every Saturday night and trying not to disappear
1:47:54
down into Avo, a vodka bottle, you know?
1:47:57
Okay, okay, we should be doing stuff here.
1:47:59
Mm-hmm.
1:48:00
And so that's, that's, that's a population I want to start really looking to towards.
1:48:05
'cause we, we absolutely rely on these people.
1:48:07
We, we sure, we rely on our servicemen as, and women as well.
1:48:10
But the first responders, man, I mean, if they're not there, you know, when
1:48:15
you need them, what are you gonna do?
1:48:18
So.
1:48:19
Yeah.
1:48:20
And I, I, I know that Joel in California there at, with square
1:48:25
peg, she's starting to work in that.
1:48:26
So maybe, maybe we'll look, maybe when we do something we should do,
1:48:30
should look at this a little bit.
1:48:31
Yeah,
1:48:32
David Lichman: yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:48:34
The, the people in California we raised that we, how
1:48:36
Rupert Isaacson: much to shave your mustache this time?
1:48:39
How much your mustache
1:48:42
David Lichman: This is, you know, the, the only place so there's
1:48:47
a guy, there's probably the best bass player in the entire world.
1:48:50
His name's Ron Carter.
1:48:51
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:48:51
David Lichman: Plays upright bass.
1:48:52
I don't play the upright bass, but somebody asked him to play the
1:48:57
opening line of So what or something that he played on a record, and
1:48:59
he says, no, I already did that.
1:49:04
He, he, he won't do it again.
1:49:06
He said, I already did that.
1:49:07
I'm, I'm just, yeah.
1:49:07
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:49:08
Yeah.
1:49:08
David Lichman: So, so the only place where I,
1:49:11
Rupert Isaacson: okay, this time I need you.
1:49:12
We, we'll shave some other part of you.
1:49:16
You knew that was coming, then you may need the merkin.
1:49:19
David Lichman: Maybe it's, maybe it's already done.
1:49:27
Rupert Isaacson: No comeback.
1:49:28
No comeback.
1:49:29
Yeah.
1:49:29
David Lichman: In, in the music is the one place I can, I can keep
1:49:32
doing the same thing because I get so much joy out of that one thing.
1:49:35
Mm-hmm.
1:49:36
And I'm not good enough to say, okay, I did that.
1:49:38
I need to do something, I need to do that one again.
1:49:40
'cause I get that feeling from that same thing that I've been practicing.
1:49:43
Mm-hmm.
1:49:43
So I'm lucky in that way that I don't always have to be
1:49:45
striving for new, but, you know, mustache challenge, probably not.
1:49:49
I, I, you know, just, I, I want to
1:49:53
Rupert Isaacson: a different, a different type of mustache maybe.
1:49:56
David Lichman: Yeah.
1:49:58
Prob probably, I would probably go again and try to take it off again all the way.
1:50:04
What?
1:50:04
I mean it was
1:50:05
Rupert Isaacson: maybe for a hundred k
1:50:06
David Lichman: maybe it's, it's, it's a I mean, it, it was a whole thing.
1:50:12
I, I have a friend who
1:50:14
Rupert Isaacson: it's a real loss of identity though.
1:50:15
My dad has always had a mustache.
1:50:18
We always used to suggest he looks like Saddam Hussein
1:50:20
and we suggest we're looking
1:50:21
David Lichman: for him.
1:50:22
Alright, so we'll say goodbye.
1:50:23
Thank you very much everybody.
1:50:24
Thank you.
1:50:25
Thank you all very much.
1:50:26
Okay, so, so, we go, now let me make a pause so you can edit.
1:50:34
So I got, I got the call.
1:50:38
To take my miniature horse to do a show called Stupid Pet Tricks.
1:50:43
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:50:44
David Lichman: It, it was based on the, the segment that
1:50:47
Dave Letterman did for years.
1:50:49
He'd bring a dog on and do, do some stupid petrick, and then
1:50:51
they would play it in slow motion.
1:50:53
And so, so they hired this is where it gets X-rated, by the way, they,
1:50:58
they, hi, they hired Sarah Silverman to host it, you know Sarah Silverman?
1:51:02
Okay,
1:51:02
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, I do.
1:51:03
Yeah,
1:51:03
David Lichman: yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:51:04
So, so we get on the phone with the producers and I'm, and I'm trying to
1:51:08
figure out, you know, like, what can we do to really be, make it funny, you know?
1:51:12
And my, my assistant is on the phone with me, and and I said,
1:51:16
you know, I said, I can train.
1:51:18
I, if you will you know, you, if you, you will stand up on two blocks.
1:51:27
I'm gonna, I'll say, I'm going to have Pepino go underneath your legs, but I'll
1:51:32
train him to stop and look up your skirt.
1:51:34
And then I'll ask him, you like what you see?
1:51:35
And have him go, yes, right.
1:51:38
Dead silence.
1:51:38
The producer's dead silent, dead silent.
1:51:41
And, and Patina gets on the phone.
1:51:43
She says, you, you can't talk about this.
1:51:44
I said, and it's Sarah Silverman.
1:51:46
No, they're trying to make it family friendly, and she's trying to turn
1:51:48
a new leaf, and she's trying to give it a new image for herself,
1:51:51
and you can't keep doing that.
1:51:53
So I said, okay, so then, then you're talking for a while.
1:51:55
And I said, I have another idea.
1:51:57
I said, you put your purse on the ground and I'll train him to reach in
1:52:00
and pull out, you know, a vibrator or dildo or something and bring it to you.
1:52:04
Right.
1:52:06
And she said, you cannot do this in good behavior.
1:52:11
Rupert Isaacson: So he's flip the red rag to the bull.
1:52:13
So now you double down.
1:52:14
Yeah.
1:52:14
David Lichman: Yes, exactly.
1:52:16
So we, we go for the, the thing we're filming the pilot.
1:52:20
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, so they do go for it?
1:52:21
They go for idea.
1:52:22
David Lichman: No, no.
1:52:22
They, they didn't, they didn't tell me what to do.
1:52:25
I, I, he, he was gonna, he puts on basketball sneakers
1:52:28
and he dunks a basketball.
1:52:29
That's the main goal.
1:52:30
And then he sits in a chair, so she's gonna interview him.
1:52:33
So, okay.
1:52:35
We sit him in the chair and they do an interview, which was from a training
1:52:38
perspective, I was not prepared.
1:52:39
I prepared for everything, but they wanted me, didn't want me on camera, so
1:52:43
I had to be behind the camera, queuing the horse to stay in the chair and wait.
1:52:48
Yes and no.
1:52:49
And it, it, it, that part of it was quite funny because he's sitting in the chair
1:52:55
and, and and, and I worked my way back and, you know, like six feet away, or two
1:53:00
meters away, and then three meters away.
1:53:01
And they say, no, no more, more.
1:53:03
And I says, I know he's gonna get up and he's not getting up.
1:53:07
And she says to him, she says, you know, wouldn't you rather be out running in
1:53:11
the fields, playing with your friends and sitting here on some TV show?
1:53:15
And he gets up and walks.
1:53:19
It's been been better.
1:53:20
Right.
1:53:21
So anyway, so that, that's what I pitched.
1:53:24
So I, I, come on.
1:53:26
And and they said, you're gonna come from, from behind the camera off stage.
1:53:30
When she calls you, you're gonna come out.
1:53:32
And I said, okay.
1:53:33
I said, can I ask him to, to you know, walk fancy, walk in a Spanish walk in?
1:53:39
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:53:39
David Lichman: And they said, yeah, sure.
1:53:40
So he comes in doing his Spanish walk, and she looks at him and looks at me and
1:53:43
she goes, you taught him to Goose step?
1:53:46
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:53:49
David Lichman: I said, no, it's like
1:53:50
Rupert Isaacson: ballet.
1:53:50
Yes.
1:53:50
I a Jew taught my horse to Goose step.
1:53:53
David Lichman: Right.
1:53:53
And she, of course, the same.
1:53:54
Turns out she, she grew up in the same town where my dad was born, where my
1:53:58
grandfather went to work on a farm.
1:53:59
Yeah.
1:53:59
Up in New Hampshire.
1:54:01
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, interesting.
1:54:01
David Lichman: Anyway, so, so I said, no, it's like ballet, it's Jean.
1:54:04
Be, it's you know this, it's a beautiful thing.
1:54:07
And said, okay, so, so we, we, we, we, she's interviewing me and talking to me,
1:54:12
and, and they give me no instructions.
1:54:14
And they, and they say, you know, she's, you, you know, why are you looking at me?
1:54:18
You, you, the camera's over there, you know, it's like giving me stage
1:54:21
directions, embarrassing, trying to embarrass me, all this stuff.
1:54:23
And so she says, okay, let's you know, why the miniature, why the
1:54:29
little horse when the obvious point of attraction is right under your nose?
1:54:36
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:54:37
David Lichman: And I said.
1:54:39
Well, it's kind of a signature thing.
1:54:41
You know, circus, the circus Ringmaster has curled, you know,
1:54:46
the big candle bar mustache.
1:54:48
And she said, well, that's interesting.
1:54:51
She said, so if, if I, if I wanted to ride your, your little horse,
1:54:56
how how much would that cost?
1:54:58
I said, well, you know, he's, you're too big to ride him.
1:55:00
I do have other horses to ride, but, but if, you know, if you were,
1:55:04
if someone was small enough, you know, you could ride him for free.
1:55:08
And she looked at me and she said, well, how much for a mustache ride?
1:55:15
And I, and all this stuff going through my head about the,
1:55:17
Rupert Isaacson: she set that whole thing up.
1:55:18
Block, block, block, block.
1:55:20
Yeah.
1:55:20
David Lichman: Right.
1:55:21
Rupert Isaacson: That's the writer's mind right there.
1:55:23
Yeah.
1:55:23
David Lichman: Right.
1:55:24
I, I, I had it all prepared and I was told, no, squash it.
1:55:28
So I said, well, the mustache rides are also free.
1:55:30
And she goes, I thought, we thought that was the, they're always free.
1:55:33
And I thought that was a very bad business model.
1:55:36
So it went downhill from there.
1:55:37
I mean, she just kept going.
1:55:39
She's one of
1:55:40
Rupert Isaacson: my heroes.
1:55:40
Yeah,
1:55:41
David Lichman: yeah.
1:55:41
She just kept going at me and she said, you know, I'd say something.
1:55:45
She says, I'm doing the jokes here.
1:55:46
And she then she'd turned and she'd say, you know, working
1:55:49
with you is like working with a professional comedy writer from 1983.
1:55:59
So that's my dirty story.
1:56:00
You can publish it or not as you wish.
1:56:02
Rupert Isaacson: Well, just also the fact that, that you, you did
1:56:05
it with Sarah Silverman hats off.
1:56:06
I'm not worthy.
1:56:08
Here I am.
1:56:09
David Lichman: I felt, I felt like, oh, when I said the cucumber thing, she
1:56:13
looked at me and she said, nice one.
1:56:16
So I got a nice one.
1:56:17
That's a, the high, the rest of the time she mopped the floor with me.
1:56:20
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:56:21
David Lichman: We were putting on Kainos shoes.
1:56:22
They wanted to do it on camera, and it's really hard to do.
1:56:25
And my friend Jay and I are down there trying to get these shoes on and
1:56:29
she's feeding the horse cookies and she's, she's saying all this stuff.
1:56:33
She says, you know, I wish I had a, a couple of.
1:56:36
Nearly elderly gentlemen to put my shoes on for me.
1:56:41
Thank you for the nearly, we're down there sweating bullets, trying to get
1:56:45
these little sneakers on the horse.
1:56:49
Rupert Isaacson: How long ago was that?
1:56:52
David Lichman: That was before America's Got Talent before COVID.
1:56:56
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:56:58
David Lichman: It, it was right at the beginning of COVID.
1:57:00
Must have been 2020 because Oh my God, the COVID tests to go on set.
1:57:06
They, they were sticking stuff up my nose every 10 minutes.
1:57:09
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:57:11
It seems like another world now.
1:57:12
Another time.
1:57:14
David Lichman: Yeah.
1:57:15
Rupert Isaacson: David, this has been brilliant.
1:57:16
Look, we are at two hours, 10 minutes.
1:57:19
We could go on and we could go on.
1:57:20
So I think what we need to do is actually have a second round.
1:57:23
David Lichman: You can also make two outta this.
1:57:26
Rupert Isaacson: No, I like, I like the long, the long format.
1:57:28
No, no.
1:57:28
There's just more.
1:57:29
There's just more to do.
1:57:30
So I think what, what we should, what we should do is we should promise the, the
1:57:35
lads and the lasses watching this, that listening to this, that we'll have David
1:57:40
on again for if, if he's willing to for more dirty stories with Sarah Silverman.
1:57:45
I want another 10 of those.
1:57:47
David Lichman: I'll have to make those.
1:57:48
I'll have to go
1:57:48
Rupert Isaacson: find it.
1:57:49
You can, you can.
1:57:50
How will we know if they're true or not?
1:57:51
And, to maybe go into some, some, some further detail on the training.
1:57:55
You know, what's, what, what was standing out for me a lot in what you were saying
1:57:59
is the great thing about doing a podcast, obviously it's just a brilliant excuse
1:58:03
to talk to loads of interesting people who, whose work you like and admire.
1:58:08
Right?
1:58:08
And so
1:58:12
as you were talking and you're talking about your curiosity and all these
1:58:16
different areas of life, which then you bring into the horses, whether it's
1:58:20
different cultures or whether it's music or whether it's showmanship or whether
1:58:23
it's history or whether it's certain philosophical concepts or so forth.
1:58:29
As you know, if you read the great Masters, the old masters which I
1:58:33
always encourage people to do, starting with Xenophon, there are actually
1:58:38
masters before Xenophon, but we only have clay fragments from this man
1:58:42
Kali in baby in Nineveh, in Babylon in 1350 or 75 BC He's keeping the
1:58:49
the stable for the Hitite Kings.
1:58:52
But we've got a bit of his book, but Zenon we know is the one who is the
1:58:57
progenitor of the European Western horsemanship slash dressage tradition.
1:59:04
And he of course is a philosopher.
1:59:07
People in the horse world go, oh yeah, Zenon, he was this horse guy.
1:59:10
It's like, well, actually he was a student of Socrates and Best, well, I dunno if he
1:59:15
was best mates, but he was classmates with Plato and they, he was also a soldier.
1:59:21
They were all soldiers actually, including Socrates, that he had
1:59:23
to be in those Greek cities.
1:59:25
And he's also taught as the master of the tactical withdrawal.
1:59:30
So if you go to West Point Academy or Sandhurst Academy training to be an
1:59:33
officer, they will teach you Xenophon as military technology for how to get your
1:59:40
army out of trouble intact without while delivering, you know, as much damage
1:59:45
as possible to the guys pursuing you.
1:59:47
So he talks about how what this type of three multi-dimensional horse training
1:59:56
requires of a human is emotional control, emo control of your emotions, and
2:00:01
therefore it's very, very good for hot blooded, young entitled aristocratic
2:00:06
men to do because it helps them to.
2:00:09
Keep their shit together.
2:00:10
And then of course, we see this theme again and again, it comes
2:00:13
up in the Renaissance with the academies and down in Naples.
2:00:17
And people like Elli Elle going back to the French King and saying, you know what?
2:00:23
Our aristocracy are out control.
2:00:25
All they do is fight jewels with each other and civil wars, and they don't
2:00:27
pay their taxes, you know, and we'll never rival Spain, you know, until
2:00:31
we get control of our economy, which is in the hands of these idiots.
2:00:35
I propose four riding academies for the youth of these guys to
2:00:40
teach them emotional control.
2:00:42
And the king goes for it, which is why we have all the French names
2:00:45
in dressage and why we even call it dressage and so on and so on.
2:00:48
And this comes all the way down this kind of philosophical, basically the
2:00:52
horses and the humanities together.
2:00:55
And I think, I wasn't expecting this as, as part of the conversation, but
2:00:59
you've really brought all of that together, but in such a human way.
2:01:02
And I love that you can go from basically, you know, compassion to mustache ride with
2:01:09
Sarah Silverman, to jazz bass to liberty training on the beach, to, you know,
2:01:18
exploring, you know, how we can perhaps be better to each other as well as 12.
2:01:24
David Lichman: Yeah.
2:01:24
I think the one thing that the horses are, that, that, that are, that
2:01:29
they are they, they will ensure.
2:01:32
You have some humility.
2:01:33
If you don't have humility, you're not gonna, you're not gonna succeed.
2:01:36
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that they're certainly going to,
2:01:37
they're gonna hand it to you.
2:01:38
Yes.
2:01:39
Regardless.
2:01:40
David Lichman: Yeah.
2:01:40
So the people who have are two arrogant are, are going to, they're
2:01:43
gonna fall down at some point.
2:01:45
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
2:01:45
Yeah, for
2:01:46
David Lichman: sure.
2:01:46
But you, just for clarity, Sarah Silverman did not accept the mustache ride for free.
2:01:51
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:01:52
I think you should add yet to the, to the,
2:01:54
David Lichman: yet
2:01:55
Rupert Isaacson: we're allowed to be optimistic.
2:01:56
I think the horses also teach us to be optimistic.
2:01:58
Do they not?
2:02:00
David Lichman: Also, you know, you, you're talking about the history
2:02:02
of Xenophon and all those yeah.
2:02:04
I didn't mention that Gabriela has a, a a degree in classical philology, which
2:02:08
is something I didn't even know existed.
2:02:10
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
2:02:11
David Lichman: But she had to learn ancient Greece and ancient Latin to,
2:02:15
to complete her four years of studying.
2:02:17
What is
2:02:18
Rupert Isaacson: philology?
2:02:18
David Lichman: Yeah.
2:02:19
It's that classical hi history of like ancient Greece and, and Roman.
2:02:24
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's more than just the history though.
2:02:26
Wouldn't that just be history?
2:02:27
What's philology?
2:02:29
David Lichman: Yeah.
2:02:29
I don't,
2:02:30
Rupert Isaacson: is it a bloat called, is it like a bloke called Phil?
2:02:32
David Lichman: Phil?
2:02:32
No, I think it's Philos meaning love, love of,
2:02:37
Rupert Isaacson: love of ah, right.
2:02:39
Ancient history.
2:02:40
She and I would definitely get along.
2:02:41
I I did my degree.
2:02:43
David Lichman: We can look it up here.
2:02:45
I'm gonna look up what is philology?
2:02:48
Rupert Isaacson: It makes you think of this bloke down the pub called
2:02:50
Phil, who you got to know all about him, and there's like a pub quiz and
2:02:54
you get tested on your philology.
2:02:57
David Lichman: The study of language in historical, oral written sources,
2:03:00
combining literary criticism, history and linguistics to analyze the
2:03:04
development structure and authenticity.
2:03:06
Authenticity of text often described as the love of words.
2:03:10
Okay.
2:03:10
Okay.
2:03:11
Ah, we focus on interpreting ancient or literary text with
2:03:15
their cultural context with strong ties to etymology key examples.
2:03:19
Okay,
2:03:21
Rupert Isaacson: wonderful.
2:03:22
David Lichman: Yeah,
2:03:22
Rupert Isaacson: I think we need her run the show.
2:03:23
Maybe you should both come on with Sarah Silverman
2:03:27
David Lichman: next time.
2:03:27
Next time.
2:03:27
Yeah.
2:03:28
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
2:03:29
David Lichman: You, you let me, Sarah Silverman, I'll,
2:03:31
I'll I'll buy you two beers.
2:03:33
Rupert Isaacson: If I, if I could do that miraculously you would shave
2:03:36
off two mustaches or, or, or regrow the, where it's already shaved.
2:03:41
Yeah.
2:03:41
David Lichman: Yeah, I will.
2:03:42
Yes.
2:03:43
Rupert Isaacson: Alright.
2:03:44
David Lichman: You, you, the, the whole key about animal training is motivation.
2:03:47
See, you now, you, now you've uncovered a motivator and now you want to exploit it.
2:03:51
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
2:03:51
I am the good place.
2:03:56
David Lichman: You learn.
2:03:56
Well, my son
2:03:58
Rupert Isaacson: David does not leave the room.
2:03:59
Yeah.
2:04:02
Okay.
2:04:03
Well, listen, thank you so much.
2:04:04
It's been brilliant.
2:04:05
Would you come on again?
2:04:07
David Lichman: Yes, absolutely.
2:04:08
And I'll try to hook up with you in Sonoma.
2:04:09
Okay.
2:04:09
And may we'll see where I am in, in I have like three days unaccounted
2:04:13
for when I'm before I go to Vienna.
2:04:16
So maybe, maybe I'll be.
2:04:18
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:04:18
Or maybe I can come to, you know, one of your gigs, you know, let's, let's see what
2:04:22
David Lichman: we can do.
2:04:22
Oh, yeah, those are fun.
2:04:23
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I'd love to,
2:04:25
David Lichman: I'll send you that.
2:04:25
I'll send you a video of some music.
2:04:27
I'll send you a video of my horseplay music.
2:04:30
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, please.
2:04:32
Maybe we can include that in the in the intros, in the outros.
2:04:36
David Lichman: Yeah, I will I'll send it all to you after we hang up.
2:04:39
Thank you so much.
2:04:39
It really has been as much fun as I thought it would be,
2:04:42
because I remember the last time we were together, it was fun.
2:04:45
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:04:46
Okay.
2:04:46
Till the next time.
2:04:49
David Lichman: Ciao.
2:04:49
Rupert Isaacson: Have a great rest of the day, my friend.
2:04:51
All right.
2:04:52
Bye-bye.
2:04:52
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