Latest / Project Podcast / Redefining project success and the value that project professionals deliver, with PMI CEO Pierre Le Manh

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Redefining project success and the value that project professionals deliver, with PMI CEO Pierre Le Manh · Project Podcast

• 0:08
  Welcome to the APM podcast, brought to you by the chartered
• 0:12
  body for the project profession. This episode is part of our
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  series of senior leader interviews hosted by APM Chief
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  Executive Professor Adam Bodison.
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  This time Adam is in conversation with Pierre Le
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  Mann, President and CEO at the Project Management Institute, or
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  PMI, a worldwide professional organisation representing the
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  project profession that's headquartered in the US.
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  An experienced CEO has worked across several sectors.
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  Pierre was born in France into what he describes as a family of
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  entrepreneurs. He moved to the US 12 years ago
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  and has also spent time working in Paris and London.
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  With Vietnamese heritage on his father's side, Pierre shares how
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  his multicultural background has given him an appreciation of the
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  diverse strengths of different cultures across PMI's
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  international community of members.
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  Listen on to hear him chat with Adam about his career journey,
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  growing, the recognition of the project profession and why
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  leaders need to stay calm in a crisis.
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  Hello, Pierre, and welcome to the APM Podcast.
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  It's a real pleasure to have you with us today.
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  How are you? Hello Adam, Thanks for having
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  me. I'm doing great.
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  Actually, I'm just back in New York from a trip to Asia and the
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  weather is fantastic, so who can complain?
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  Well, you know, as British we like to talk about the weather a
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  lot, but usually not for good reason.
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  That's why I was trying. I was trying to adjust.
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  Very good, very good. Well, you know, this is an APM
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  first really to have the CEO and president of of PMI on the
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  podcast. So, you know, it's it's a
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  pleasure and privilege to have you on and we've got a whole
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  range of things to ask you about today.
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  So we will we will get started straight away.
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  One, one of the things I think people are really interested to
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  know about Pierre is your kind of career journey.
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  We obviously know where you are now in your current role, but
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  I'd be really interested to know, you know, what led you to
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  this point, how you first kind of decided to become ACEO and
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  then later on to make that decision specifically to become
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  CEO of PMI. So when I made the decision to
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  be ACEO, that's not an easy answer.
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  It it didn't really work that way.
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  You know, carry all our life are usually quite intimately linked.
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  And in my case, I was born in France, I'm Asian by blood.
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  My father is from Vietnam. I always say I'm Asian by blood,
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  European by culture and American by choice.
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  I was born in a family of entrepreneurs.
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  My father, my grandfather, my uncle, every, everyone had their
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  own companies and I was the product of the French system.
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  You know, we have this system called the Gronzico, right?
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  The schools that are, let's say, the epitome of the French
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  educational system, very centralised.
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  So I went to that. And then after that I had, I
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  still have to do my military service at the time.
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  So I went for a year. Actually, I was lucky.
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  I was sent to Canada to work in the French economic intelligence
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  in Montreal. Then I came back, studied in
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  consulting. You know, I was not very clear
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  about what I wanted to do. And at the time it felt like
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  being a consultant was a good way not to make any choice.
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  But then I felt very quickly the need for autonomy, the latitude
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  to do things according to my own views, you know, build
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  organisations and, and products in my own way, shape the culture
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  that I wanted and I I felt this is how I would feel
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  accomplished. So I went to smaller companies
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  where I could immediately be in a decision making role, part of
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  the C-Suite, actually went to a nonprofit company to be the CFO
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  managing copyrights for actors and singers.
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  So very different world. And then from there, things
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  almost happened naturally and, and I became the CEO of a
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  publishing company that wanted to move to digital and they
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  want, they thought that someone who was my age, 31 year old at
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  the time would be a better choice than someone who had
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  already a lot of experience in a world that was completely
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  disrupted, right? We were talking about the end of
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  the 90s when everything became digital.
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  So that's how I studied as ACEO. And then, you know, being ACEO
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  is almost like a profession, right?
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  Once you do this, you, you just try to be better at it.
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  You do it in different companies.
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  There are some stages though, you know, when you go from
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  running one specific business to a portfolio of businesses or
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  different geographies as well different countries.
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  And then you learn along the way how to handle different
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  shareholding structures. You know, I work for listed
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  companies, family owned, private equity owned and you know, you
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  got increasingly involved also into international global
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  businesses, scaling them up worldwide.
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  And yeah. And then I came to PMI because I
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  thought I could help precisely scale and transform the
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  organisation. It was very strong brand, maybe
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  a little bit in a need for refreshment and renewal and I
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  thought I could really help doing that.
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  And I also love the focus on people, the global side of it,
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  the for purpose mentality of the the organisation.
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  And I also believe truly that successful projects can change
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  the world for the better. And was a great calling for me
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  almost. Fantastic.
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  We definitely have a lot in common there in terms of what we
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  feel about the impact that projects can make and in terms
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  of professional bodies and the and the kind of the purpose side
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  of things. You talk there a lot about the
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  different countries and geographies that you've worked
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  in, the different sectors, different industries.
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  I guess you know, one of the things for me that's interesting
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  about the project profession is that breadth that it's got.
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  So I guess that was very helpful in terms of coming into this
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  role that you had all of that to draw from.
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  One of the things we're obsessed about in the project profession
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  is learning lessons and applying lessons.
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  Are there any kind of leadership principles or lessons that you
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  think are common across all of these sectors and geographies
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  and so on? You know, I, I define leadership
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  as ultimately the ability to inspire others around you to
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  take action and, and drive change.
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  So that is not industry specific.
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  It's about everywhere in and it's not even business specific.
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  On the personal side, I feel that you have to at least I try
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  to be authentic and not being overly scared, you know, not to
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  say the right things. And, and, and also I believe
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  it's important to to avoid platitudes and thinking and
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  saying the same thing as everybody else, right?
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  You have to form real personal opinions on things.
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  A sort of a vet and Shaweng like German people say you this kind
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  of vision of the world that is more personal to you and that
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  helps also coming across as more authentic and being real, right.
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  When it comes to leadership in the corporate world, I think
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  it's very important to focus on the long term purpose and
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  values. You know, things that are
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  universal that people will follow even when the lights go
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  off right and and define their own way without a blueprint.
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  It's not always easy because people often ask for a blueprint
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  and you try to resist that and and really show them the long
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  term vision, the purpose, because you want them to find
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  their own way. To an extent.
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  It's more effective than trying to tell everyone, especially
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  when you run large organisations, what they have to
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  do right. I think it's important also, and
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  I learned that to focus on teams, not just the individuals,
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  but the the team dynamics. And you learn this a lot from
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  sports. If you're interested in sports,
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  you see that my favourite team, PSG has great individuals and
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  now they finally have a team. Maybe the individuals are not as
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  well known, but the team works at least as well as before.
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  And so that dynamic of the team, how you build something that
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  where the sum of the parts exceeds the parts themselves is
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  so important to me. And also always think about how
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  you raise both the ceiling and the floor, right?
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  So the the minimum performance that is expected, but also make
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  sure that you bring some inspiration and, and get people
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  to trust to have the confidence that they can deliver things
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  that they would would never even think they could.
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  They would be able to. I actually formalised all of
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  that in a, my personal philosophy that I call the three
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  SS. In summary, you know, it's just
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  three words, right? Solidarity, substance and
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  standards. And, and it's each of the SS is
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  a, a combination of two, is a tension in fact between two
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  different things. Like the first one, solidarity
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  is both personal accountability and collective ownership.
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  You know, so I, I tried to summarise all of that and I
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  actually wrote this out across PMI now.
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  Oh, wow, OK. And, and that's great when you
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  as a leader can have that kind of personal influence as well.
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  And I think that speaks to the point that you're making around,
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  you know, somebody else couldn't just step in and, and lead the
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  organisation in the same way. It's it's the leader's
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  personality, I suppose that, you know, their their identity is
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  kind of woven into the fabric of the organisation in some way.
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  I, I like that you talked a lot there about earlier on about
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  your own cultural identity and your cultural background.
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  One of the things about PMI, of course, is that as a global
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  organisation, you're working with many, many different
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  cultural, cultural backgrounds and expectations.
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  And some of those can be, I suppose at, at in tension with
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  each other as well. How, how do you, how do you kind
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  of balance the, the different expectations?
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  They're both in a a personal respect as a leader, but also in
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  terms of I, I don't know the offer that you might have as an
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  organisation as well. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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  Before my career, it's my personal life that has shaped me
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  as a multicultural person. You know, I have 51 first
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  cousins on my dad's side. My grandfather was very
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  prolific. He had many children and
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  themselves have many children. So I have first cousins in in
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  France, of course in the US, many of them in Vietnam, in
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  Australia, and I'm close to to many of them.
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  I even have a son who is a British citizen.
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  He went to study in the UK more than 10 years ago, 12 years ago
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  now, and he stayed and became a British citizen.
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  So I think it's all about leveraging differences instead
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  of trying to eradicate differences.
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  So it's not about having everyone behave in the same way.
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  It is really trying to accept that by leveraging our
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  differences and accepting differences, we would be
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  stronger. So I always try to make people
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  feel proud of their culture and, and their country.
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  Even Americans, believe it or not at PMI, of course, because
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  we're very global, there's always this hesitation to come
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  across as American. And, and I always tell people
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  you don't have to, to worry about that.
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  It's, it's not a problem. Like you have to be proud of
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  your own roots and identity and culture, but then at the same
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  time value others and be curious about it and, and make sure that
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  we leverage all this, all this richness of the different
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  cultures that form PMI in our community.
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  You know, and, and you'll see this in my, I try, of course,
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  it's sort of easier for me because nobody knows where I'm
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  from. You know, when I'm on the West
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  Coast in the US, people talk to me in Spanish.
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  They assume I'm probably Hispanic.
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  When I'm in Vietnam, people ask me sometimes in Vietnamese and
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  I, I don't speak Vietnamese, but I do understand that they ask me
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  if I'm, if I'm sort of a little bit the same way as they are in
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  France. Of course, people when I speak
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  French people and, and French. So it's like people can't place
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  me. So it helps me in a way.
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  But you'll see that on my social media, for instance, on
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  LinkedIn, I, I always talk about different countries.
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  You know, I take any opportunity to expose the world, how each
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  region, each country has their own strengths and specificities
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  and, and where they're really good at to promote that.
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  You know, I think that PMI, we PMI can really be a unifying
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  factor in the world and actually is a unifying factor factor, you
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  know, across all product professionals and, and I, I see
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  this as a, a part of my own mission in life, if you will.
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  Fantastic. And, you know, I reflect back on
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  my own kind of journey through leadership and I can probably
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  think in my mind, there's probably, you know, 3 or 4 key
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  moments where I'd say something happened, usually not something
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  that's planned, right? Something happened as a
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  surprise, which I had to deal with.
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  And it could be an opportunity, it could have been a challenge,
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  but something's happened. And it's kind of shaped my whole
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  approach to leadership. And you know what I believe in
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  and so on. I guess that's something that
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  all leaders go through these, these pivotal moments.
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  Are there any that stand out on your journey that have shaped
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  your own approach to to leadership?
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  So you have those moments when you are outside of your comfort
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  zone and this is when you, you learn, right?
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  There's, I mean, there's a, an old say that anything doesn't
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  kill you, makes you stronger. And I, I think nothing is more
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  true than that. It's, it's just you have to
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  develop the resilience when things are going really wrong to
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  remember that and that, you know, you fight and then one day
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  the sun will rise again and you'll be in a better shape.
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  And it's in these curves, right, that you have the opportunities
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  to improve more than in the straight lines.
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  So I had moments in my career, of course, where I had to step
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  up, you know, and the pandemic, for instance, five years ago
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  taught me a great deal, as I think it taught us, many of us a
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  great deal. You know, it helped me become
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  more resilient. Also, you know, I have a
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  tendency to be very calm when in situations of danger.
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  I, I don't know why, but it's always been like that, even when
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  I was a child. So that actually helped me And,
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  and I, you know, I think that if you communicate with, with
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  determination and calm when things are really not good,
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  while still being able to make tough decisions, that actually
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  makes field people safe or safer.
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  Like they feel they have a, a strong leadership and, and it
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  calms them down as well, right. And that's what you need when
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  those situations arise. I've had also like a totally
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  different level, you know, when I, when I started, when I moved
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  from running one specific business to running several
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  businesses, either because I was running a conglomerate of
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  different companies like which with like a limited synergies
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  between them or because I moved from a running a business in one
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  country to running businesses in multiple countries.
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  This was a tough step for me to be honest.
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  Like I, that happened to me the first time about 25 years ago.
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  And the first time that happened to me for a while, for a year, a
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  year and a half, I had no clue what to do right.
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  I didn't know what my job was, if I was supposed to be involved
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  in the details or not at all involved.
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  And it's only after some practise that you understand how
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  to do both, right. So being involved sufficiently
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  hands on and the same time giving a lot of autonomy and,
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  and focusing on the, the choice of the people you have and, and
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  the dynamics of the teams, not on execution, right, but be
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  quite involved in the details of the design and, and direction
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  and strategy and you know, that kind of stuff.
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  Look, we've had moments, at least people of my generations,
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  where we saw things go up and down very quickly.
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  You know, we had this first Internet bubble.
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  I mentioned my first year old was at the at the time when the
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  bubble was was getting bigger and then it exploded.
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  So we all had to go through that very interesting period where
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  stuff was crazy and suddenly a disaster.
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  And it kind of shaped my sense of heightened sense of risk, you
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  know, when things go too well. So I've kept that, you know,
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  and, and when things go well, I know that it's temporary.
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  And I try to make sure that nobody remains complacent.
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  People find me nicer when times are tough than when they're not.
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  And because when they're not is when I, I feel on the edge
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  almost that something is going to happen.
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  And we know that, you know, trees never grow to the sky as
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  we say in French. And at one point things will not
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  be as good, right. So, and then personal things,
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  you know, when I moved to the US 12 years ago, a bit more than 12
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  years ago, I came here because we in the company I was running
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  at the time, we had made a big acquisition and, and we had some
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  integration issues in the US, which was by far our largest
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  market. So I moved to the US to fix
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  that, and I thought I would say 2-3, four years and then see I'm
• 16:20
  still here and I change companies.
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  My life has actually evolved. But when I moved, although I
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  knew the US culture very well, I had worked for U.S. companies
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  before and I had had US teams before.
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  It is still different, right? It's a big adjustment.
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  I worked in Italy for a while. I learned the language and I
• 16:37
  found it not so difficult. But the US is actually a
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  slightly bigger stretch, at least for someone who grew up in
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  Europe. And so, you know, it forced me
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  to adjust. And I do remember my first years
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  were not easy. The first two years business was
• 16:50
  not easy. I came because we had problems.
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  And indeed, we did have problems.
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  We had a very quick decline of our largest client.
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  And then, you know, I found ways to overcome that, you know, with
• 17:01
  another massive client later in the tech industry.
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  But I, I was really not enjoying myself.
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  And I do remember one day walking in the streets of
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  Manhattan to the subway so early in the morning.
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  And it was some, I don't know, sometime in spring and and it
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  was amazing around me, right? And I felt I'm so privileged, in
• 17:21
  fact, to be here. So I have to enjoy myself more
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  because if I don't, then I would make everyone miserable as I am
• 17:28
  miserable. And I think, you know, I don't
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  know if it's the reason, but from there things started to go
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  much better. And, you know, it's also a
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  lesson I learned, right? When things are not easy, try to
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  enjoy yourself a little more and, and, and that will help,
• 17:41
  right? It will help your environment.
• 17:42
  Yeah. I think it's very good advice.
• 17:45
  Interesting your point around being calm in a crisis is is
• 17:48
  well made. I, I, I always say to that to my
• 17:51
  team. I said the day when you see me
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  panic, everybody should be worried.
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  I said, because, because then was really got something to
• 18:00
  worry about. I said, but probably you'll
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  never see that because, you know, I think it's part of our
• 18:04
  job as as leaders, isn't it, which is to hold steady in times
• 18:08
  of, of, of turbulence. We're APM, the only chartered
• 18:13
  membership organisation for the project profession.
• 18:16
  When you become an APM member, you'll receive the resources and
• 18:19
  support you need to make an impact, delivering better
• 18:22
  projects with better outcomes. Plus, you'll access exclusive
• 18:26
  training and benefits to support your ongoing career development.
• 18:30
  Find out how we can help you reach your potential by visiting
• 18:33
  apm.org.uk. Because when projects succeed,
• 18:37
  society benefits. We haven't talked a lot about
• 18:42
  the project profession yet and given that an area we are both
• 18:45
  passionate about, we should probably spend a bit of time on
• 18:48
  that. There's a lot going on.
• 18:50
  I wonder if you might give us a sense of what you think the
• 18:52
  current project landscape is and and in particular how
• 18:56
  individuals and organisations should be adapting to the
• 18:59
  changing world around us. I still believe that it's almost
• 19:04
  a no brainer of the project economy as we call it.
• 19:06
  So let's say 1/3 of the global economy is is growing faster
• 19:10
  than the global GDP because the need for transformation is
• 19:14
  constant and in fact accelerating, right?
• 19:16
  We have of course climate emergency because it's not
• 19:19
  because you're looking the other way that the problem goes away,
• 19:22
  right. So the emergency is here, AI
• 19:25
  transformation obviously and technology disruptions.
• 19:29
  You, you see also an increased fragmentation in many areas,
• 19:34
  right? I mean, it started with digital
• 19:36
  media that created so much fragmentation of commerce, of
• 19:40
  advertising, of media, you know, so everything has started to
• 19:43
  fragment that way. But the consequence of that is
• 19:46
  that it made it easier for small businesses to succeed in areas
• 19:50
  that before where very protected for large players, right?
• 19:54
  So the, the benefits of skill are not as obvious as they used
• 19:58
  to be. And, and, and you need to fight
• 20:00
  constantly against new players and, and even definitions of
• 20:04
  your markets that are getting more blurred, right?
• 20:06
  So it's puts a lot of pressure, a lot of stress and it drives,
• 20:11
  of course, a lot of transformation.
• 20:12
  That's the right side for project professionals, right?
• 20:14
  So we're we're seeing a lot of demand.
• 20:17
  And now, of course, with the world geopolitical
• 20:20
  reconfiguration that we're attending at one point, of
• 20:23
  course things will stabilise one way or another and, and
• 20:27
  investments would be made to adjust to this new reality.
• 20:30
  Right now, people are still waiting to see what's going to
• 20:32
  happen because it's not very clear.
• 20:34
  But once it will get more clear, there will be also, I think a
• 20:37
  significant amount of investment that will come from from that
• 20:41
  reconfiguration. So I feel there's a, a big way
• 20:46
  to ride for project professionals.
• 20:48
  But obviously, and we might want to talk about that the
• 20:51
  profession is changing and definitely we will see project
• 20:55
  professionals being successful in their career if they have
• 20:58
  more than just project management skills, right?
• 21:00
  They have to, I mean the technical skills, if you will
• 21:03
  not very technical, but the the traditional skills of project
• 21:07
  professionals in execution are table stakes.
• 21:10
  But to succeed you, we need much more than that business acumen,
• 21:14
  ability to communicate, to convince stakeholders, and
• 21:17
  really to go beyond the strict definition of project
• 21:20
  management. Yeah, I I think that's true.
• 21:23
  I was having a conversation actually just earlier today
• 21:26
  about the the blurry lines, if you like, between different
• 21:29
  professions. So as an example, you take
• 21:32
  project management and product management and change
• 21:35
  management. You know, there are, you know,
• 21:38
  interdependencies between all of those, but but actually they are
• 21:41
  all, you know, things in their own right.
• 21:44
  But actually a really effective project professional has that
• 21:48
  kind of wider set of skills and experiences to be able to draw
• 21:52
  from, including in the, as you say, in the leadership space as
• 21:55
  well. So I think it's a a point well
• 21:57
  made. One of the things, Pierre, that
• 22:00
  you've introduced PMI is the more framework initiative, which
• 22:05
  I think it's encouraging project professionals to rethink their
• 22:07
  roles and in particular to redefine success.
• 22:10
  It's something we're talking a lot about at APM as well.
• 22:13
  I'm really interested if you tell us a bit more about that
• 22:15
  and in particular the impact that you think that will have.
• 22:19
  Yeah, more, or we call it sometimes MORE because it's an
• 22:23
  acronym is, is simply a broader vision for the profession and,
• 22:27
  and what it can accomplish. So we, when I joined, we
• 22:31
  redefined our purpose, our strategy and, and, and, and one
• 22:35
  thing that we, we tried to make clear is that we were more
• 22:39
  interested in project success than just project management
• 22:43
  success. So we launched this largest
• 22:46
  research in PMS history. We formed a group of experts
• 22:49
  from the academia practitioner C-Suite, interviewed in depth
• 22:53
  150 people and then went on with a survey of 10,000 people.
• 22:57
  And, and, and so talking about their projects and, and also
• 23:01
  redefining what is project success, right?
• 23:04
  Where we came up with this definition of project success
• 23:06
  being that value successful projects deliver value that is
• 23:09
  worth the effort and expense. So this idea of a continuum and
• 23:13
  an equation, right? You it's always about fighting
• 23:15
  waste, trying to focus on the value that you deliver.
• 23:19
  This is a little uncomfortable. So because, well, some people
• 23:22
  will say, we've always said that, although it's not
• 23:24
  necessarily true, but but it's also a little bit uncomfortable
• 23:27
  because it puts the project professionals in a situation of
• 23:30
  being accountable for stuff that they don't fully control.
• 23:33
  But you know, as Aceo Adam, that unfortunately or fortunately, we
• 23:39
  are all the time and the C-Suite is all the time responsible for
• 23:42
  things that they are not fully in control of.
• 23:45
  You know, that's part of life when you want to elevate
• 23:47
  yourself. So you still have to accept that
• 23:50
  risk and and still do something and influence and try to really
• 23:54
  focus on the long term and the short term execution as well.
• 23:57
  So all this tension is complicated, but you know, it
• 24:01
  does add and that's also uncomfortable perception to hard
• 24:04
  facts, right? It's not just about the triple
• 24:06
  constraints. Measuring to a business gaze,
• 24:09
  measuring to a scope, measuring to a budget, measuring to a
• 24:12
  schedule is way beyond that. It's managing the perception of
• 24:16
  stakeholders, you know, not just by the way, understanding the
• 24:20
  perception they have, but shaping it right and, and and
• 24:23
  convincing people because in the end, perception is also reality.
• 24:27
  It it's, it's about also this ability to constantly reassess,
• 24:32
  you know, the value that you deliver.
• 24:34
  Be flexible with mandates, not necessarily execute something
• 24:38
  that doesn't make any sense and brought in a broader way.
• 24:42
  And that's the E of more right? Expand your, the context in
• 24:46
  which you operate, right? See projects in the broader
• 24:48
  business and, and even world context as much as possible.
• 24:53
  So yeah, that is the broader vision we have the mindset that
• 24:56
  we think can have a major impact first of all on making projects
• 25:00
  more successful, but also on elevating the profession and
• 25:03
  getting more recognition and and more influence.
• 25:07
  And that has LED us by the way to expand the boundaries of PMI.
• 25:11
  So you mentioned before areas that are adjacent, you know,
• 25:14
  when we made this acquisition of Cognitica and AI integrated the
• 25:20
  Agile Alliance, the project measures without bother acquired
• 25:23
  PMOGA, etcetera, etcetera. So you know that's how this
• 25:27
  materialises in what PMI does. But the bigger picture and the
• 25:30
  most important thing is this broader vision we have for the
• 25:33
  profession. Yeah, that makes sense.
• 25:36
  And the thing about value as well in this often in the
• 25:38
  conversations I have here, Pierre, is this, this idea that
• 25:41
  sometimes the value that you create isn't the, is unintended,
• 25:45
  It's it, it wasn't in the business case, you know, and
• 25:49
  that's because the context can change so much that sometimes
• 25:52
  you, you don't deliver the value that you you intended, but you
• 25:56
  do deliver some of the value that was unintentional.
• 25:58
  And so trying to then articulate the extent to which something
• 26:02
  was, you know, as, as you say, worth the time and, and expense,
• 26:06
  that's something which can be a long term endeavour.
• 26:09
  You know, sometimes it could be decades after you finish
• 26:12
  something to really be able to say for sure with that Longview
• 26:16
  back. You know, if we were back
• 26:18
  twenty, 30-40 years ago making that same decision again, yes,
• 26:21
  it would be worthwhile. Despite all of the pain and
• 26:23
  whatever else we've been through, it would still make
• 26:25
  sense to do it. Yeah.
• 26:27
  And and by the way, Adam, in reality we, we understand that
• 26:31
  depending on the type of project, sometimes it's very
• 26:33
  difficult to to be fully in charge of the success if it's a
• 26:36
  very long term success, right. We understand that it's it's not
• 26:39
  the same if you manage an internal IT project or a very
• 26:42
  large government LED infrastructure project.
• 26:45
  But still, there's always a way to think about more right?
• 26:50
  How you manage perceptions, how you maybe try as much as
• 26:53
  possible, stretch as much as you can, your ability to change the
• 26:58
  parameters of the project, when the projects parameters should
• 27:01
  be changed in the in the interest of the community you
• 27:04
  serve. And that's the kind of business
• 27:07
  agility point that you're making it a small like a small like
• 27:10
  agility there. But but you know, the point I
• 27:12
  was going to make is that I think for for those larger
• 27:16
  organisations and government funded projects, you know,
• 27:18
  publicly funded projects, I think they are probably the best
• 27:22
  placed to be able to take that Longview back sometimes.
• 27:26
  But I, my hunch is that they don't really want to do that
• 27:29
  because, you know, the priority is what's happening today and
• 27:32
  tomorrow, not what happened 30 years ago or something.
• 27:35
  But, but probably there is some value in, in, in doing that by,
• 27:39
  by the way as well. I, I, they have this great
• 27:41
  expression in the Netherlands where I'm sure you will have
• 27:44
  heard this before, which is where they describe a situation
• 27:47
  where a project delivers into the triple constraint.
• 27:50
  You know, it delivers, you know, on time, within budget and so
• 27:54
  on, but actually delivers none of the benefits that were
• 27:56
  intended because the, because the world has moved on.
• 27:59
  The classic being an IT project, for example, where everything
• 28:02
  was delivered on time, but it's not needed anymore.
• 28:04
  And the, the, the expression they use is the operation was
• 28:07
  successful, that the patient is dead, which which which always
• 28:11
  makes me laugh, you know, but it's, it's, it's, it describes a
• 28:16
  number of projects that I've seen, certainly.
• 28:18
  It's a good summary and in a very Dutch form of humour.
• 28:22
  Absolutely. Well, well, let's talk about the
• 28:24
  future. What do you think is going to
• 28:26
  happen over the next decade in terms of the evolution of the
• 28:29
  project profession? And you know, what should you
• 28:32
  know, PMI and APM, what should we be doing as, as, as
• 28:36
  professional bodies to help shape that future or prepare the
• 28:39
  profession for what's coming? You know, I know that.
• 28:43
  I know that crystal ball. I don't even know how the world
• 28:46
  would be in one year from now. But one thing that I think is a
• 28:50
  safe bet for us, at least it's a bet that we made at PMI, is that
• 28:54
  AI will transform the knowledge economy in in a significant way.
• 28:59
  So it's not just project management, right?
• 29:01
  It's, it's broader than that. It's the whole knowledge work,
• 29:04
  which is, I don't know, 1 billion people in the world and
• 29:07
  most of the jobs that our audience today are involved in.
• 29:12
  And so that transformation coming from AI, of course,
• 29:14
  generates a lot of anxiety. It's not the first time that we
• 29:18
  have these disturbing moments right in the history of
• 29:22
  humanity. And I love to take the examples
• 29:25
  of when, you know, Galileo discovered that the Earth was
• 29:29
  not the centre of the universe. That's was a very disrupting
• 29:32
  thought and disturbing thought for for humans, You know, when
• 29:35
  Darwin established that, you know, in fact, the man was an
• 29:40
  evolution from and the animal, right.
• 29:42
  We're not particularly exceptional when Freud
• 29:46
  discovered that we don't fully control consciously our acts,
• 29:49
  right? It's, it's, it's those moments
• 29:52
  of questioning about the, the sense of humanity and what does
• 29:55
  it mean to be human? And now with AI, we have the
• 29:58
  same thing, right? So it's like, why are we even
• 30:00
  here if a machine can do a better job than us at many
• 30:03
  things? And it's definitely disturbing,
• 30:06
  but we've always adapted in the past, right.
• 30:08
  So I'm sort of betting on the fact that we would be able to
• 30:11
  adapt to that reality as well. It does mean that we need to
• 30:16
  elevate the ceiling, right? Because I was talking about
• 30:19
  elevating the floor and the ceiling AI is going to elevate
• 30:21
  the floor like the most of the executional task of project
• 30:25
  management will be automated. So the question for us is how do
• 30:30
  we elevate the ceiling? How do we elevate the profession
• 30:33
  to a level where it does things that AI won't do?
• 30:37
  And a good example of that is accountability in particular,
• 30:40
  right? In the end, someone has to be
• 30:41
  accountable. It's hard to make a machine
• 30:43
  accountable. Like someone has to be
• 30:45
  accountable. So if we refuse accountability,
• 30:48
  including of things that we don't fully control, then it's
• 30:50
  going to be hard for us to elevate the ceiling and we'd be
• 30:52
  caught up by the floor, right? Raising, right.
• 30:55
  So definitely for us, a PMPMI, we have to help project
• 31:01
  professionals to elevate their role.
• 31:03
  Yeah, that makes, that makes good sense.
• 31:05
  Now one of the things in the UKI talk about a lot is the kind of
• 31:10
  image problem, if that's the right expression that the
• 31:12
  project profession has. And, and I'm particularly
• 31:14
  thinking of those who are in senior C-Suite roles, probably
• 31:18
  not in project delivery organisations, but I'm, I'm
• 31:21
  thinking more broadly where the project profession is seen as a,
• 31:26
  I don't know, a technical function or a backroom function.
• 31:29
  It's not seen as a strategic function.
• 31:31
  It's not seen as relevant to leadership or strategy
• 31:35
  execution. My personal view is that it is
• 31:38
  relevant. Is that just the UK thing?
• 31:40
  Is that something you're seeing in the US and, and globally from
• 31:43
  your, you know, PMI context and your, your own kind of world
• 31:46
  travels? No, I, I don't think it's a,
• 31:49
  it's AUK thing at all. It's global and, and, and
• 31:53
  frankly, I don't think project professionals are the only ones
• 31:56
  who complain about that. Like, I've been working for
• 31:58
  different professions in my life and I sort of felt that any
• 32:02
  profession feels at one point that it's not recognised enough,
• 32:05
  right? But yes, definitely this is a
• 32:08
  very common feeling across our profession and actually even a
• 32:13
  driving force of our project success work and our more
• 32:16
  framework at PMI. It's precisely to elevate the
• 32:19
  profession so that it gets more or better recognised.
• 32:22
  You know, one thing that I read, sometimes people are asking me
• 32:25
  or you to make sure that project professionals have a seat in the
• 32:30
  C-Suite, that we create chief project officers positions and
• 32:34
  things like that. Asking for it in itself won't
• 32:37
  work, right? We, we have to be realistic with
• 32:39
  that to gain recognition as a profession, we need to expand
• 32:44
  our impact, right and accountability.
• 32:46
  We need to speak the language of the C-Suite.
• 32:48
  We have to think about business imperatives behind the projects
• 32:51
  that we need. We have to connect to strategy.
• 32:52
  We have to really create the positive impact for the
• 32:56
  organisations that we work for. And then yes, of course, PMI and
• 33:00
  APM can advocate and we should advocate.
• 33:02
  But in the end, the C-Suite execs need to see a change, an
• 33:07
  improvement in the value they get from project professionals
• 33:10
  and then naturally they would recognise the profession even
• 33:14
  more. By the way, just to be clear, in
• 33:17
  some industries this problem doesn't fully exist, right?
• 33:20
  People who manage big programmes in the military or
• 33:23
  infrastructure, you know, they are well recognised.
• 33:26
  But it's true that in some other areas where they are more
• 33:29
  involved in internal projects and things that may not be at
• 33:32
  the same level of at the same stake maybe or don't have the
• 33:36
  same stake, there's sometimes this recognition problem.
• 33:39
  But again, if we stick to execution reporting, we won't be
• 33:45
  able to elevate the ceiling and, and and get the impact that we
• 33:49
  should have. And, and then it's getting more
• 33:51
  difficult to be recognised as well.
• 33:52
  It's a two way St. Yeah, that makes sense.
• 33:55
  And so, so it's, it's action, not just words that you're
• 33:57
  advocating for that I agree with that.
• 33:59
  And interesting. The words are a problem, aren't
• 34:01
  they, that you mentioned the terminology.
• 34:03
  I, I, I, I, I've sometimes had conversations with CEOs, C-Suite
• 34:08
  and so on. And, and I see that as soon as I
• 34:10
  talk about project management, I see the shutters come down, you
• 34:13
  know, but if I have exactly the same conversation, but I replace
• 34:16
  the words project management with strategy execution, and I
• 34:20
  could say exactly the same thing, they're interested.
• 34:23
  So that kind of, as you say, talk the language of the C-Suite
• 34:25
  is important. Yeah, I mean, not, not all.
• 34:30
  I mean, I don't know if all project management is strategy
• 34:33
  execution, but I think if we talk about projects, if we talk
• 34:36
  about transformation, if we talk about project professionals, you
• 34:39
  know, we're fine. In the end, I don't think the
• 34:42
  C-Suite has anything against project management, but they do
• 34:46
  sometimes associate project management or project managers
• 34:50
  with stuff that is not in their own focus, right?
• 34:54
  It's like, OK, people have to do that probably, but that's not my
• 34:57
  problem. Because they don't see that
• 35:01
  transformation is at stake here. Like it's not going to happen.
• 35:04
  Their whole strategy is not going to be executed.
• 35:08
  The whole transformation ideas and vision won't be executed if
• 35:12
  the projects are not successful. And that they all understand
• 35:14
  that. They all understand that
• 35:15
  projects have to be successful. Now, if they see people who can
• 35:18
  actually help, they'll like these people.
• 35:21
  Recognition won't be an issue at all, right?
• 35:24
  So it's all about what you actually deliver.
• 35:27
  I think I read in APMI, I'm pretty sure it was APMI report
• 35:31
  around the kind of global shortage of the number of
• 35:33
  project professionals that are going to be needed and and from
• 35:35
  memory I think the number was 25,000,000 by 20-30.
• 35:40
  I'm sure you'll correct me if I've got that wrong, but but the
• 35:42
  point is we, we don't have anywhere near the number of
• 35:45
  project professionals that we're going to need.
• 35:47
  What do you think APM and PMI need to be doing to make our
• 35:52
  profession more attractive, make it more inclusive to kind of get
• 35:56
  this volume and calibre of people that we're going to need
• 36:01
  to deliver on the world's kind of global ambitions?
• 36:04
  Yeah. We actually just reset the
• 36:06
  number of those numbers, right, that you mentioned before.
• 36:09
  Yeah, because we, we thought we should as part of our strategy,
• 36:14
  refocus on people who are really doing project work, project work
• 36:18
  as a, as a, their main professional activity, right.
• 36:22
  So not, not people who need some project management abilities or
• 36:27
  skills to do their jobs, but people who actually do project
• 36:30
  work most of their time in their professional life.
• 36:34
  So we narrow down to about 40 million people in the world.
• 36:39
  And so by definition, we'd need a little less in terms of
• 36:42
  growth, but there would be more, there would be actually people
• 36:44
  who do project work. There's still a, a, a good, a
• 36:48
  good need for, you know, new people because in particular in
• 36:52
  some of the most mature markets like the US or the UK, we have
• 36:55
  people also retiring and they need to be replaced.
• 36:58
  And again, the project economy is growing faster than than than
• 37:03
  the global GDP, right. So there's a a lot of work here
• 37:07
  that would be, would have to be done and, and that requires
• 37:10
  people to do it. And, and of of course, there's
• 37:12
  always the risk that if we can't elevate the profession, then
• 37:15
  that work would be done by other people like consultants or, you
• 37:19
  know, people who not necessarily have the skills to actually
• 37:21
  manage properly a project. So it's very important that we
• 37:24
  attract people to the profession, just like you said,
• 37:27
  you know, in my opinion, part of the issue is the way we talk
• 37:29
  about the profession. If you talk to a student about
• 37:32
  project management or being a project manager, they might be
• 37:35
  mightily excited, not necessarily negative, but
• 37:38
  mightily excited by that. But if you talk about projects,
• 37:41
  they get very excited when they see the examples of things that
• 37:44
  actually transform the world. They get very excited by that.
• 37:48
  So talking about project management as a calling, the
• 37:52
  ability to affect real change, to elevate our world, how you
• 37:56
  can affect positively economies, communities, your country, a
• 38:00
  certain activity that you have passion for.
• 38:02
  That's how you get people to project.
• 38:05
  And if they come to projects, then of course they understand
• 38:07
  that if you want to make a project successful, you have to
• 38:09
  learn how to do that. And that's exactly what is
• 38:11
  project management. I also believe that expanding
• 38:15
  the industries that we we talked to and we address can play an
• 38:19
  interesting role. So at PMI, we've really started
• 38:21
  to put more emphasis on industries outside of the, you
• 38:24
  know, traditional software, construction, utilities,
• 38:28
  etcetera. So we now work a lot with
• 38:31
  companies in marketing and fashion, in music, you know,
• 38:34
  where a lot of project success is necessary as well.
• 38:37
  And, and that also makes the profession a little more sexy,
• 38:40
  right? And gives a different face to
• 38:43
  project professionals. And that works.
• 38:45
  You know, we talk to them on TikTok, we talk to them on
• 38:47
  Instagram. So we meet people where they are
• 38:50
  and in a way that I feel is compelling.
• 38:52
  And you know, frankly, we have a lot of programmes, I'm sure you
• 38:56
  do as well for young professionals.
• 38:58
  And I see very excited young professionals who have big
• 39:02
  ambitions to change the world and own the future of the world
• 39:05
  and take it from our generation and and that's exciting to see.
• 39:10
  Final question for me, if I may, Pierre, there'll be lots of
• 39:12
  people who are very enthused by what you've had to say today and
• 39:17
  you've got this opportunity to give them a piece of advice.
• 39:20
  What would you say to project professionals they could be at
• 39:22
  any stage in their career? What one piece of advice would
• 39:26
  Pierre Le Man from PMI give to these project professionals?
• 39:30
  Well, first of all, don't stop learning.
• 39:33
  It it, it is a constant. We learn every single day.
• 39:37
  We have to keep learning. You have to learn techniques.
• 39:41
  It's not just about doing leadership training.
• 39:43
  And you know, you have to learn all the techniques and
• 39:46
  understand how AI is shipping all of that.
• 39:47
  You know, at PMI, we have a tonne of resources.
• 39:50
  I'm sure you do as well at 8:00 PM.
• 39:52
  So keep learning. I think it's very important to
• 39:55
  attend events in person events virtual as well, but in person
• 39:59
  it's so important meeting your peers, learn from them, network,
• 40:02
  connect, give back to our profession.
• 40:05
  You know, sometimes when it's six, 7:00 PM and I have some
• 40:08
  event like I feel I don't know if I want to go.
• 40:10
  I'm not done with work, I'm tired.
• 40:12
  But then you go and the moment you're there talking to other
• 40:15
  people, learning from them, giving back, you don't regret,
• 40:18
  right? So make that effort.
• 40:20
  It's so important. And then?
• 40:22
  Just one very simple thing, be ambitious and be confident.
• 40:25
  Be confident that as a profession, as professionals, we
• 40:28
  can do more and it really depends on us well.
• 40:32
  I think they are very sound words of wisdom.
• 40:34
  I've written them down myself, Pierre.
• 40:36
  Well, look, I think that's all we've got time for today.
• 40:39
  Pierre, thank you so much for giving up the time and talking
• 40:42
  to us today. It's a pleasure talking to you
• 40:45
  and I'll see you soon. Thank you, Adam.
• 40:47
  Thank you very much. Thanks to Adam and Pierre for
• 40:58
  taking time out to share their conversation with the APM
• 41:01
  Podcast. Don't forget to rate and review
• 41:04
  us wherever you get your podcasts.
• 41:06
  You can find out more about pmi@pmi.org, and if you want to
• 41:10
  contact us with your feedback, suggestions or ideas for topics
• 41:13
  we should cover, e-mail us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.
• 41:19
  Spotify users can also leave us a comment directly within the
• 41:23
  Spotify app. That's it for this episode.
• 41:26
  Thanks again for listening.