Latest / The Curve / RTC72: The Power of the Prenup (and the cost of being Kevin Costner)

Transcript

RTC72: The Power of the Prenup (and the cost of being Kevin Costner) · The Curve

0:00
Welcome to Raising the Curve, a podcast designed to teach you everything you need to know
0:05
to be better with your money.
0:07
And the wise words of Amy Schumer were slipping carrots into the brownie recipe.
0:11
I don't really get the saying.
0:13
It's kind of like eating vegetables that actually taste good.
0:17
You know, I'm like, still not ready to eat.
0:19
Are you on the script?
0:20
It's basically like saying, investing in finance can be boring, but it totally doesn't
0:26
need to be here.
0:27
OK, OK, so we're making it fun by putting the carrot.
0:31
OK, the vegetables are good for you.
0:33
It's the brownie recipe.
0:34
OK, we got there, we got there.
0:36
OK, OK.
0:36
Well, you've really got a finance mate.
0:38
Yeah, one of us has to.
0:40
This is a joke.
0:41
OK, come and learn alongside me from Vick Harris, ex-fun manager.
0:45
Well, I'm going to ask all the questions that you wish you could.
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And I'm going to be eating all the brownie you wish you could.
0:51
It's so not the joke, Vick.
0:54
OK, just come and talk and learn and laugh with us.
0:56
Because together, we really can raise the curve.
1:00
Today, we're going to get Jeremy Kyle on it.
1:02
Yeah.
1:03
So there's something happening.
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I can't wait for you.
1:06
Oh, no, she's way classier.
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This is the dirty down and dirty.
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This is happening in Hollywood.
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I know the test results.
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Is he the father?
1:16
OK, so we did cancel.
1:18
What?
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Who did?
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Jeremy Kyle.
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Yeah.
1:22
OK, we're not going Jeremy Kyle on it.
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No, no, no, no.
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We're not going.
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It's the one where they're like, I just found out that she had a baby with my sister.
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Is that the...
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Anyway.
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It was probably like juicy episode.
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What are you guys going to talk about?
1:35
Yeah.
1:36
So there's something happening in Hollywood at the moment that we thought was a massive...
1:40
Oh, my God.
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Sorry.
1:42
We're losing it.
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Basically, Kevin Costner, who you may not recognize his neighbor, we're going to really
1:47
just paint the pictures to who he is.
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He's...
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For any yellowstone fans out there, they're probably like, oh gosh, Kevin Costner, I love
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him.
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I don't know, whatever, but the main character, one of the biggest TV shows.
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Is it Amazon Prime?
2:00
There's only five seasons.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I've not watched one episode.
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It is.
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I've watched a few, and then kind of got a bit bored, which people have probably been
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like, what?
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Oh, my gosh, it's amazing.
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It's a cowboy themed show, isn't it?
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I read online, they're protecting their family land, and I thought how much drama can
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get out of five seasons of protecting family land?
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Yeah, true.
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I mean, there's selling sunset, you know, you've got tro, tro, tro, tro, five seasons
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out of that, and there's just selling.
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This is true.
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So anyway, there's been 47 episodes of this.
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He was earning 1.3 million per episode, and his net worth is 250 million.
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So he is...
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Making bank.
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Yeah.
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He's rolling on it.
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So he got married 18, 19 years ago.
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Yep.
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Two.
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A woman named Christine.
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Balmgata, no?
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Oh, my gosh.
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We're just going to call her Christine.
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Christine.
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Apologies, Christine.
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You're sorry.
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Hopefully you're not listening to this episode.
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They got married.
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She had a career with a handbag line at some stage.
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I'm not sure exactly to be honest, I haven't actually Googled the success of that company
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or what the bags look like, but she wasn't just a set home mum, but while Kevin was
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building his career, she was a set home mum, essentially, looking after the kids and
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working on this handbag business.
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And they got married in 2004, and they signed the prenup before that.
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Yeah.
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And then she had that she was looking after the three children while he was building his
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career.
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So in terms of what he's in, also, I just think we need to give context.
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He's like an Oscar and Emmy award-winning actor.
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So he's well-known, even if you're like, who is this dude?
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If you Google it, you'll recognize him for sure.
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Yeah.
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I think he was in, like, holiday and the sun with the Olsen twins, or something.
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I might be making that up, but I feel like he was in some kind of kids TV show that I
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remember.
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Oh, yes.
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Oh, my God.
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Was it the parent track?
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Was he the dad in parent track?
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He is.
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I knew it was something like that.
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I see.
4:00
Oh, my gosh.
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I think he is.
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I think he is.
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Yeah.
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That's so good.
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Oh, my gosh.
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Low, it's just like.
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Oh, that's so good.
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So the other ones that he was in was like the Untouchables, the Bodyguards.
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Apparently his most famous film was, like, dancing in the wall for something.
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Sorry.
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I wasn't home.
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Deepest day, though.
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I was like, let's just fact check there.
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Well, we're about to talk to a lawyer about prenupt, so we're just like getting all
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the movies wrong.
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I guess not.
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It's not him.
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However, he's well-known.
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He was considered one of the most successful actors of the 90s.
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Of the 90s.
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Yeah.
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Which was quite big.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I reckon that'd be, like, Leonardo DiCaprio for us.
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What'd it?
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Maybe.
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Yeah, maybe.
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Anyway.
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Anyway, he's a big deal.
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He's a big deal.
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And he is having a nasty old divorce with his now ex-wife.
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So they split up a few months ago, and, as you can imagine, their lifestyle was probably
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reasonably bougie.
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Yes.
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$150 million home.
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Can't even imagine the kind of holidays they'd be going on.
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Or the cost of the upkeep of their house.
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So dead-ed.
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Anyway.
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Anyway.
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They've got three kids, I think, like, 11, 13 and 15 or something.
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Yeah.
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The parents are separating.
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And it's getting to a point where it's all over the news.
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It's, like, become one of those things that people are, like, tracking closely with,
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oh, my gosh, what's the new news that's coming out about this divorce, what's happening
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with the pre-nut?
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And the key thing is, is that they signed the pre-nut before he made a lot of money.
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Well, he's, he had a lot of money beforehand, and that's why they signed the pre-nut.
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But now he's made a lot more.
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Christine is fighting it to try and get more money from the divorce.
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And he's saying effectively, no.
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And so it's going through the courts.
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And yeah, it's very interesting watching these developments.
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It's got to the point where she had to evacuate the family home.
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Yeah.
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She wanted to stay there with the kids, right?
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To stay there, and he was like, no, no, you need to evacuate.
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So it's got to the point where she's now taking items from the family home.
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But they're like, you can only take personal items, toiletries, clothes, personal jewelry.
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Apparently, she was looking at some childhood bedside table that she wanted to take,
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not a family heirloom, but, you know, sent him into it, and she's not even allowed to take that.
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So she's storing it in, like, some storage unit.
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And there's obviously two sides to every story.
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You know, we're not coming from either side.
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We're just literally looking at this from a point of view of,
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it's just a great example of why you should have your prenup updated or, you know,
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make sure there's clauses in there that when situations change, you can update it
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because lives change and people's change, people's earning capacities change,
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relationships change.
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So it's really important.
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You have children.
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All that kind of stuff needs to be thought about when setting up a prenup.
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Because also the idea of, like, get out of our family home,
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which apparently is because he needs to be closed to his editing suite or whatever that was.
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If you're single, or you're not single, but if you're in a relationship without kids,
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okay, get out of the house, whatever.
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But if you've got three children, that prenup kind of does it stand?
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You know, are you telling the kids and the mother they have to leave their family home?
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And it's like, it's also not to say the kids can't be with him.
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I mean, we don't really know the internet, so that's what we just thought,
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such a good example to look at and think, oh my goodness,
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be on the same page financially.
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And the reason we wanted to get Stephanie Lamanon, who's a top-top lawyer
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from the states who does heaps of high profile, divorces, fertility, all sorts of stuff,
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is because she's dealt with a lot of high profile celebrity high net worth individuals
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who have separated and the stuff that she has seen is quite ridiculous.
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And just FYI, this is obviously changing every day in the news.
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So he has agreed to, you know, some child support,
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but then they've actually now fighting it because part of that was money for her,
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for plastic surgery, he mentioned.
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So there's lots of, I guess, nastiness going on now in terms of, you know,
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how much she should get, what she is getting that money for,
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is it actually child support, all of that.
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But the fact that he still earns $1.5 million a month,
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and she's asking for about $250,000 a month,
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is what is that?
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Like, it's like just, it's probably like 20%.
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Right.
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But I guess his argument is that he's not earning as much now because Yellowstone's finished.
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So there's, like I said, two sides to every story,
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but we're going to dig into it.
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And you can make your decision of whose side you're on.
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I wish she'd get like a jugged duty sound effect or something like a pole.
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What, just before we do speak to Stephanie, what was your initial gut feeling?
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Like how did you feel when you were reading about the situation?
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What's so hard because you're like, well, of course she should get more.
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But then you're like, well, no, they signed a prenup.
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And then you hear stories, well, she's spending a lot of that monthly child support money
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on plastic surgery.
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You know, there's all these things that start coming out,
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but I don't even know what's true and what's not.
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I think what I've learned from this is that even if you're married for 20 years,
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you know, that's a long time in the scheme of things.
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You know, relationships can change.
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People's earnings capacities can change.
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Situations can change.
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And I think it's just shows you should always have your own money,
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even if it's a small amount.
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So that if you get kicked out of the family home or, you know,
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you have to really be independent.
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You have that little bit of financial security.
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It's kind of what I took from this.
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Do you want to know what I think?
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Oh, he's a dick.
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Do you know what?
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I'm actually kind of think she's silly,
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but not updating the prenup.
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Is that bad?
9:17
Yeah.
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I'm not on her side or not on either side.
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Yeah, I don't know.
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I guess 20 years ago,
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I mean, I only just learned about prenups now.
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Yeah.
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So she probably had no idea even really what she was signing.
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I would just hope if I ever got in the situation,
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I could remove the nastiness
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and just be like, what is best for the children?
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And think about the children and be,
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you know, just be more rational about it and not get nastier,
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not be in the public eye.
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Well, my divorce won't be.
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Who are you married?
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I'm married to get divorced.
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Yeah, you know, once every time you're like,
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anyway, yeah.
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I'm interested to see
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and hear from Stephanie's lawyer.
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Lens, same.
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And then make my decision.
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Should we get her on?
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Yeah.
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Okay, so on the phone right now, Vick,
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we have got a very exciting international guest.
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Who?
10:11
I know who this is.
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You do know who this is.
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So, Stephanie,
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Lehman, welcome to the show.
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Thank you so much for being here.
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We're very excited to have you on.
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Yes, very excited.
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Oh, and thank you for having me.
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It's very exciting for me as well.
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And also just a beautiful American accent.
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I don't mean to just, like,
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not to shuddle over the American accent.
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However, some of them are nicer than others
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and yours is lovely.
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Oh, I've worked hard at it.
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Yeah, coming from New York,
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it could have a bit of a twang.
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So we work hard at that.
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We had a TikTok, actually, that went a bit viral
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and the comments on it were like,
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gosh, the Kiwi accent.
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Oh, so annoying.
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And I was like, it really hit me.
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I was like, excuse me, I can't help it.
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It's my existence.
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You know, sorry.
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I could give you an introduction,
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but I feel like I might not do your work
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and your career justice.
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But as a real top line,
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Stephanie is a top lawyer
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and specialises in matrimonial fertility,
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family law, all sorts of different areas.
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But the reason that we're getting on today
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is specifically in relation to
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the Kevin Kostner and Christine.
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Can you pronounce it yet?
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No, not so embarrassing.
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Yeah.
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Kevin and Christine case.
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But before we get started,
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because we have quite a few questions,
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we'd love to ask you about this particular case.
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You've worked in a huge amount of high net worth
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separation, some celebrity cases.
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We would just love an overview
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on a bit of your background
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and how you ended up when you are today.
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I actually ended up where I am by complete accident.
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I was an art history major
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wanting to be an art law lawyer
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and one thing led to another
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by sheer accident
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and where you get your first job out of law school.
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And I ended up working
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for a matrimonial attorney in New York City,
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very high profile.
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And that was after I actually clerked for a judge in New Jersey
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who was in the family division.
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That led to this job.
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And I've never left.
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I do find that I love it.
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I especially love working on custody matters
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and helping children and their families.
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Is that hard to get, like, to decide?
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Because you'd be given a case
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whether it's fertility, whether it's marriage separations.
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Someone comes to you wanting to work with you, right?
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And you can't choose what side of the fence they're on.
12:28
Is that something that you then choose
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who you're wanting to help?
12:31
How does that work?
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A client usually, either the husband,
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the wife, a spouse, calls me
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and they have been referred to me
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or they've heard about me from friends, family members.
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She's a big deal, usually with a spouse.
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And I can say that I represent equally
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each side of the marriage.
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It really makes no difference to me.
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The law is the law and you work and I strive
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to protect my clients and their rights
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and hopefully do the best I can for them.
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But is there an emotional element
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where you're like,
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this spouse is being so ridiculous
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and so manipulative and so horrible?
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And yet you have to support them
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because you're a client and fight for them.
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And also another question around the emotional side,
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how do you not get emotionally involved
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when you're dealing with custody
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and all of that with children?
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Like it must be so hard to decompat mentalize.
13:20
Exactly, you really really have to work very hard at it.
13:23
In the beginning, when I first started out,
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I would take this home and it was really mentally draining.
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And in fact, I do contribute that to me,
13:32
myself getting married when I was 35 years old.
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I think because I was so jaded by everything,
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it was really hard for me to understand
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that I could have a happy marriage and a happy life.
13:44
And I do and I have a wonderful husband and three children
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and it's all worked out.
13:49
But the stories that I hear from my clients,
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some of it's truly unbelievable what you hear
13:55
that happens in households and it's heartbreaking
13:57
that a couple can get to this point in their lives, right?
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And not be able to kind of deal with each other
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in these emotions and these issues
14:08
and reconcile it without someone advocating on their behalf.
14:12
My favorite is when I have a client come to me
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and says, you know what, I've been talking to my spouse,
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I think we've worked this out.
14:19
We know what's best for our children.
14:21
Can you just write it out for me?
14:22
And that really just bodes well for the future of them
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together and helping out,
14:27
knowing that they're gonna be able to raise their children
14:30
in a not necessarily a happy and joint household, right?
14:33
But two parents that are able to co-parent
14:36
for the best interests of their children.
14:38
That really is the best scenario that really you hope for
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and strive for.
14:44
How do you keep a divorce out of the public spotlight
14:47
when you're dealing with people that are very high profile
14:49
and you ever want to know what's going on
14:50
and what's known the nitty gritties?
14:51
And do you think that it thrations the legal proceedings
14:54
when it does get to the public?
14:55
And I'm just keen to hear your view on that.
14:57
Yeah, I think that these types of cases really do need
15:00
to stay out of the public eye.
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I think that they're all dealing with very private matters
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and it's embarrassing and it can interfere
15:08
with their careers in the future.
15:10
We can do in New York, at least New Jersey.
15:12
We can apply for a confidential caption,
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meaning that it's gonna be anonymous versus anonymous.
15:18
It's gotta be done by way of emotion practice
15:21
that's always my first choice to do with that way.
15:25
If you ask me how these things get leaked,
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that's a mystery to all of us.
15:29
I do think that there is like somebody sitting
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in the clerk's office waiting for these filings,
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reporting back to all the juicy gossip magazines
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and newspapers.
15:41
Oh my gosh, do you look around the office and go,
15:43
is it you?
15:43
Is it you?
15:44
Is it you?
15:45
Is it you?
15:46
Well, it's the clerk's office
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because I mean, there's no real way when we file it,
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it's like obviously we're bound by confidentiality.
15:53
So it's not like I'm the one looking at it.
15:54
But I'd be like, how much will you pay me?
15:58
Right, right.
16:00
Exactly, so this stuff happens.
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And, you know, as I said, the best thing to do
16:05
is to try to get an anonymous caption
16:07
and hope for the best.
16:08
And is that an expensive lengthy
16:10
or is it reasonably easy to get that across the line?
16:12
If someone's a high profile celebrity,
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is it pretty obvious?
16:16
If they're high profile separately, exactly.
16:18
I mean, you hope that the courts are gonna do the right thing
16:20
and grant that application to keep this very private.
16:23
But there's so many details that get leaked.
16:26
Like it's not just, oh, we're dealing
16:27
with the Kevin and Christine case and that's it.
16:30
You know, like every single detail of their case
16:33
seems to be leaked.
16:34
So surely you can figure out them all.
16:37
Someone goes and hold it for two weeks.
16:38
There's nothing in the press.
16:40
It's you.
16:40
Right, I can't speak to how this happened in California.
16:43
I don't know if there's like a leakies there too,
16:45
but just from experience in New York,
16:48
I do have to believe that there's someone somewhere
16:51
watching over this because it happens too often.
16:54
Are there any times when the press do get access to,
16:58
I guess if that, what did you call it,
16:59
the capsule isn't granted,
17:01
then does that mean it's kind of free rein
17:03
to have access to the legal proceedings for the press?
17:05
They're all confidential filings
17:07
in the people in New York that have access to the files
17:10
are the parties to the action and their attorneys.
17:13
So again, how this all happens and who does the talking?
17:17
I can only say it's not me, not I.
17:20
Actually, I mean, I am not the one doing it, right?
17:23
So it's always, oh my God, you know, you read about this.
17:26
Or you see my name flashing all over the news, right?
17:29
It's like, how did that happen?
17:31
How true is it?
17:32
Is it like 40% true, 50% true, 100% true?
17:36
Too many in terms of what gets out of it.
17:37
It's a lot of it's spun, a lot of it's spun
17:40
and and and taken out of context and as I said,
17:43
that's why you really want to keep the set of the public eye
17:45
because it often does more harm than good.
17:48
Okay, before we get into the details
17:50
of the Kevin Christine situation,
17:53
I wanted to know and you can say, no comment.
17:57
But are you allowed to say some of the high profile
18:00
or a high net worth individuals that you have worked with?
18:03
Is it a public knowledge or smiling?
18:05
She's like, I can't.
18:06
But surely isn't in the news is kind of what I mean.
18:08
Like, is it not just public?
18:10
No, I'd rather not say.
18:11
If you didn't answer the news, I just don't like,
18:14
look, I always tell my client,
18:15
I'm not going to be the one to mention their names.
18:17
I really think I'm struggling about that.
18:19
Google and we'll interrupt the team interview
18:21
and dub over an American voice
18:23
and pretend it's Stephen Edwin.
18:24
Are you coming from there?
18:25
Yeah.
18:26
No, that's so good.
18:27
Yeah.
18:28
Basically, there's a bit of a situation
18:30
happening at the moment
18:31
between two very high profile people in America.
18:34
So Kevin Costner, 90s actor,
18:37
I'm sure you're well across what's happening.
18:38
We don't really need to give you the lowdown.
18:40
But just to reiterate for anyone that's maybe tuned out
18:44
and tuned back in, essentially what's happened
18:46
is they were married 18, 19 years ago.
18:49
A prenup was put in place
18:51
and now that they're separated,
18:53
it's incredibly favorable to him
18:55
and she's been left in a reasonably compromising position,
18:59
is trying to fight against this prenup
19:01
and get herself financially in a better position
19:03
than what she would if this particular prenup is enforced.
19:08
I guess my question is in the States,
19:11
what kind of legs does somebody have to stand on
19:14
to come back and say, this is really unfair?
19:18
I think maybe another way to ask the question
19:20
is like, you sign a prenup
19:21
so that when your marriage ends,
19:24
you don't have to go through this drama
19:26
because you've signed an agreement early on.
19:28
So it seems weird to me now
19:30
that now that you can contest a prenup
19:33
when the whole preface of a prenup
19:36
is so you don't have these issues.
19:39
So it's kind of this weird situation of,
19:41
well, if the prenup isn't lawfully abiding,
19:45
I don't know if that's right to him,
19:46
then why have one in the first place?
19:49
Does that make sense?
19:50
I mean, that's why you need very good lawyers to draft them.
19:52
And for the most part,
19:53
they are very hard to invalidate.
19:56
The buyer's remorse theory is really why
19:59
you need good lawyers to draft them.
20:00
So that, especially in the case of the costner case,
20:04
it really is buyer's remorse.
20:06
I mean, I have to re-regret what you've done.
20:09
So she re-regret signing it essentially.
20:12
Yeah, I mean, and she's trying to get a better deal now.
20:15
I mean, signing it 19 years ago,
20:17
he was already a superstar.
20:20
He had a career.
20:22
I mean, maybe it wasn't as lucrative as it is now.
20:26
He's had some great success from Alistone.
20:28
Let's like all say for what it is.
20:30
She knew that she was moving into his home.
20:32
She was living his life with his money and his assets.
20:36
And to sign an agreement from what I've read through the news
20:41
where she's getting a million dollars.
20:43
And that's pretty much it.
20:45
To me, her lawyer, I don't know who he or she was.
20:48
And I'm sure there was way more that went on behind the scenes,
20:52
that any of us knows in this negotiation process.
20:56
And I'm sure her lawyer did the best she could,
20:58
or he could for her.
21:00
I do think looking back on it, though,
21:02
why didn't they make sure she had a place
21:04
to live in the event of a divorce?
21:05
Or why didn't she start over time to acquire an interest
21:09
in his home?
21:10
So at least she'd build up equity in that home, especially,
21:13
in essence, in a long-term marriage, especially
21:16
for my female clients, I should say.
21:18
It's one of the biggest things that they really are concerned
21:22
about, especially when they're marrying a man
21:25
who's coming to the marriage with the home already,
21:28
that they're asking their bride to move into.
21:32
One of the biggest questions I always
21:33
get from my female clients is, what's
21:36
going to happen if there's a divorce?
21:37
Where am I going to go?
21:39
This home is big enough that we're
21:40
going to live here for the rest of the police god
21:41
for the rest of our lives.
21:43
But if it doesn't work out, where does he want me to go?
21:46
Because presumably by then, I will have kids.
21:49
And I understand that.
21:51
It's a very scary, scary thought process
21:54
for a woman who's going to maybe be a stay-at-home mom,
21:58
taking care of their children.
22:00
Where is she supposed to go?
22:01
So you have to question, where does Kevin think
22:05
that his wife was supposed to go with his three kids?
22:08
His three kids.
22:09
It's not even just hers.
22:10
That's the way it is going.
22:13
So that's the part that I keep questioning in my head.
22:16
And why I also don't think it's making him,
22:19
in my opinion, look very good.
22:21
It's like figure out somewhere.
22:22
It's like, oh, the kids can stay in the house.
22:24
She just has to go.
22:25
Well, that's not very nice, is it?
22:27
I mean, it's the mother of his kids.
22:29
Yes, yeah, exactly.
22:31
And what kind of message is it sending?
22:33
That's true.
22:34
So one of the things that I thought was interesting
22:36
is the idea that what she was asking for a child to port wise,
22:40
I think it was something like 250,000 of that was quite a lot.
22:46
But then also, whatever, I think she ended up getting 127
22:50
or something like that, which is obviously still a lot of money.
22:53
And her argument was it would be really jarring
22:56
for the kids to completely change their lifestyle
22:58
and what they used to and blah, blah, blah.
23:00
Which again, I do understand.
23:02
But there's no way that if they're moving into a two-bedroom house
23:07
somewhere in, I don't know, wherever.
23:10
It's going to be extremely uncomparable to where they grow up.
23:13
So I'm not fitling.
23:15
Yeah, it's just an interesting content.
23:16
And by the way, I'm trying to earn $27,000 a month.
23:19
There's a lot of money.
23:20
It's a lot of money.
23:21
It's a lot of money.
23:22
And the question that I've been reading about that, though,
23:24
is like, are those all the kids needs?
23:27
Is that really for the kids' lifestyle?
23:29
Or is included in that some of her lifestyle is, don't forget,
23:33
she's not getting spells or support, right?
23:35
So she's trying to get money whichever way she can.
23:38
And it's my understanding that she's
23:40
going to now have to show that a majority of that money
23:43
is going to housing costs because that is the kids' lifestyle, right?
23:47
It's not going as they're joking in the news
23:50
to pay for her Botox, in her extra curricular needs.
23:55
That's going to be the interesting part.
23:57
And showing that she really, truly does need this
23:59
so that it's something that perhaps can be maintained
24:02
until the kids are 18.
24:04
Is it possible for a prenup to have
24:07
dates or milestones in place where you can update it?
24:11
Like they've had three children in a nearly 20-year marriage.
24:14
Is there kind of clauses that you can put in place
24:16
in a prenup that's like, this is valid
24:18
until we have children or until you're earning capacity
24:22
as this or until mine is this, you know,
24:24
is there any way that you can make it
24:26
almost a live document?
24:28
Yeah, there's all sorts of different formulas.
24:31
I like to call them that we can put in, right?
24:33
Different milestones based upon these are the length of marriage.
24:36
Sometimes I negotiate two different deals
24:38
so to speak within one prenup, right?
24:41
If there are children or if there are no children,
24:43
this happens in the first three years of marriage.
24:45
This happens in the next three-year marriage
24:47
with or without children.
24:48
You know, you're constantly having so to speak
24:51
this live agreement that's working with the marriage,
24:54
you know, sometimes even after 20 years, for example,
24:58
we put in what's called sunset clauses
24:59
where you've been married such a long time,
25:02
the likelihood maybe of divorce has gone away, right?
25:05
We're in it to win it.
25:06
So the agreement goes away, not very common,
25:09
but you can do something like that as well.
25:12
To me, you really have to listen to your client
25:15
and almost predict his or her future for them.
25:19
They're coming to you to do that
25:20
because they're not thinking.
25:21
They're happy, they're in bliss.
25:23
She was thinking about Mary and Kevin Costner.
25:26
Woo-hoo, you know, like this is gonna be great for her.
25:29
But I don't think she was actually thinking
25:30
that my marriage took Kevin is ever gonna really end
25:33
for what it's gonna look like for me if it does end.
25:35
So that's really the lawyer's job.
25:37
And look, I don't have a crystal ball.
25:39
If I did, I would be a superstar, right?
25:42
I, my life would look a very different
25:45
if I could predict the future for all my clients.
25:47
But my job really is in essence to help them to do that.
25:51
But also, you probably wouldn't have any clients.
25:53
If you hit a crystal, did you just like,
25:55
so, babe, don't worry about it.
25:56
Don't even bother with the marriage.
25:58
Actually, because four years in, you're breaking up.
26:00
Right, that's right, that's right.
26:02
It's over.
26:03
But no, but my job really is to think about the what ifs for them.
26:07
And almost be that doom and gloom kind of person
26:10
where this is, I really need you to think about
26:13
what if this marriage doesn't work out.
26:15
And where do you see yourself and do you see yourself?
26:18
It is the stay-at-home mom.
26:19
Do you see yourself continuing to work?
26:21
What is the highest level of, in your career,
26:24
where do you think you can achieve?
26:25
Try to back all that information into this document
26:29
and into this deal that you negotiate.
26:31
So given the situation that Christine is in,
26:35
if you had been her lawyer,
26:36
what would some of the things that you would have put in place
26:39
so that she wasn't in the situation now?
26:42
Would you have done?
26:43
Just the fact that he's an actor, he's obviously,
26:45
he could have been a plonker,
26:47
he could have really gone downhill,
26:48
but he didn't, he did the opposite.
26:49
And so I guess, yeah, as you were saying,
26:52
you would think of the best in the worst case scenario.
26:54
So would you have put different things in place for her
26:56
so that she could either get spousal support?
26:58
The reality is if she's been a stay-at-home mom
27:00
more or less like she obviously did have that handbag company,
27:03
but while he's been acquiring wealth,
27:05
she's been looking after the kids.
27:07
How do you value that time that she's spent looking
27:10
after the children while he built his career?
27:12
Because I think there'd be a lot of females
27:14
in the same position.
27:15
How do you dollarize that work?
27:18
Right, there's so many ways.
27:20
I mean, there's so many things that are coming to my mind
27:22
as you were saying that,
27:23
ooh, I would have made a right this,
27:25
I might have tried this.
27:25
And again, it's all trying because you don't know
27:28
what his lawyer's gonna say yes
27:30
and no to do.
27:31
And before I get into what I might have done,
27:34
the tricky part of pre-nuff is,
27:36
you don't want your clients not to get married.
27:38
There's so many things that are coming to my mind.
27:40
Like if he was a working actor at the time of their divorce,
27:44
or at least three years prior to the marriage ending,
27:48
maybe you would like try to negotiate a deal
27:51
around him being a working actor
27:53
versus him not being a working actor,
27:55
or what his net worth accumulated net worth was
27:58
at the time of the divorce, right?
28:00
How do we, you know, that million dollars
28:03
that she's getting is like pennies
28:04
compared to what he's accumulated, right?
28:07
Over the years, so.
28:08
He's worth 250 million
28:10
and he was getting 1.5 million a month.
28:12
Right, so when you're asking me,
28:14
does that amount to what she deserves
28:16
for taking care and raising his three children
28:18
and giving up perhaps, you know,
28:19
some interest or future for herself
28:22
in her company or not working as hard
28:25
or having the time to build it
28:27
as strongly as she may?
28:29
Yeah, I don't think that's even like close
28:31
to probably what she deserves.
28:33
I don't know what his lawyer was doing.
28:35
I wasn't there, I wasn't in the room.
28:36
So I'd really commenting on, you know,
28:39
what happened is unfair.
28:40
But how do you quantify?
28:41
I mean, I know that this is a question
28:43
that probably a lot of people are wondering
28:44
because more and more this idea of woman's work
28:46
is starting to become a conversation, right?
28:49
Like how do you value the idea of looking after kids,
28:53
cleaning the house, cooking the food, doing woman's work,
28:56
whatever we want to call it?
28:57
If you were to look at what you pay for a cleaner, a cook,
29:00
all of those things, a babysitter, whatever,
29:02
it's not going to be anywhere near what you would earn
29:05
if you were an actor in Yellowstone.
29:07
How does that then as a lawyer from a legal perspective,
29:11
how can we look at that situation
29:13
and figure out like what is a fear formula?
29:15
Or like I just, I can't get my head around
29:18
what's the best way to do it?
29:19
How do you quantify career sacrifice?
29:21
Yes, it is, but that's like really what we look to
29:24
as far as equitable distribution.
29:26
When we say what's equitable and fair,
29:28
that's one of the factors at least in New York and New Jersey
29:31
that we look to, like what is the value of this marital estate
29:36
and is it equitable, right?
29:38
Let's just say Kevin and Christine
29:40
were living in New York and New Jersey, right?
29:41
Is it fair because Kevin did all the working
29:44
for him to get a lion's share?
29:45
Is it equitable, right?
29:46
For him to get a lion's share of the marital estate
29:49
just because he was working it and she wasn't.
29:52
Absolutely not.
29:52
She was as much as a contributor
29:54
because without her, he couldn't have, right?
29:57
Risen and had all that time to travel to God knows
30:01
where to film, you know, Yellowstone.
30:03
Could he have, like, I'm just gonna be Divell's advocate here.
30:05
Yeah.
30:06
Could he not have hired a babysitter, a cook, a blah, blah,
30:09
but like, I'm sure he did too, I don't think she.
30:12
Yes, right.
30:13
Oh no, I know, but I guess this is kind of my point
30:15
is that I mean, I'm all for supporting women
30:18
and I think that if someone's giving up their career,
30:20
there's got to be like, how do we forget us out?
30:22
But that's the equitable distribution.
30:24
Yeah, but that's kind of what I mean
30:25
is from a money perspective.
30:27
It's like, he probably is like, well,
30:28
I could have done this without you.
30:29
Is that a relief?
30:31
You've stopped thing to say.
30:32
Yeah, but then that's what the Alimony
30:33
or the maintenance component, the support,
30:35
the spousal support component is, right?
30:37
All of it too, also that we're compensating her, right?
30:42
And giving her an income stream for those efforts as well,
30:46
right, to help her because she shouldn't have to dip
30:48
into her equitable distribution to support herself.
30:51
What does that mean, sorry?
30:52
Her equitable distribution would be her share
30:54
of the marital estate.
30:56
Let's assume there was no prena, right?
30:58
And just assume for argument state
31:00
that the value of their state is $200 million
31:03
and it all accumulated during the marriage.
31:05
So it's marital property and it's subject in my world
31:08
to subject of equitable distribution
31:10
and she's gonna get $100 million.
31:11
That's $100 million.
31:12
That's gonna throw off income for her too.
31:15
So in that sense, the court may not say
31:17
you're a spousal support candidate
31:20
because you've got tremendous wealth, right?
31:22
And you're gonna be set for the rest of your life.
31:24
She'll get child support too.
31:26
So you don't need half of the assets
31:28
as well as an income stream
31:29
because you're getting income from those assets.
31:31
Well, no, no, you may not get both.
31:33
You may not get both.
31:34
You won't get both.
31:35
Yeah, because you're getting a no.
31:36
But let's just let's dummy it down
31:38
and just say that the marital estate is worth $1 million.
31:42
So she's gonna get $500,000.
31:45
And he earns, I don't know, $1 million a year.
31:48
She is likely going to be a spousal support.
31:51
She will allow in addition to that $500,000
31:54
that she's gonna get as a distribution from the marriage.
31:58
She's also gonna get some type of income stream
32:02
from her spouse to help support her for a period of time.
32:05
Either A will allow her to get back up on her feet
32:08
in a shorter term marriage
32:09
or in a longer term marriage for quite some time, right?
32:12
So depending on what the laws in the state
32:14
and the durational requirement statutes are.
32:16
So what's she got?
32:17
So she's not going for the spousal support,
32:19
but she's also not getting the assets.
32:21
Why is that?
32:22
That's what was negotiated.
32:23
And that's why I have a hard time.
32:25
That's what the problem is.
32:26
That's the problem.
32:27
And again, I haven't seen the prenuptial agreement
32:30
and I wasn't in the room when they were negotiating it.
32:32
But what I'm reading from what's been reported is
32:35
she's getting $1 million and there's no spousal support.
32:38
So there's no income stream.
32:40
There will be an income stream from child support.
32:43
And you gotta remember that when you negotiate
32:45
these prenuptial agreements,
32:47
child support and child custody are off the table.
32:50
Okay, that you can't, is there unborn children?
32:53
It's against public policy to start negotiating for them.
32:55
And you can't negotiate against your rights
32:58
to child support.
32:59
It's against public policy.
33:00
Go.
33:01
That's why that's all being litigated now.
33:03
So this is just an open issue.
33:05
Yeah, the penny's just dropped for me.
33:06
I must tell you it's what half an hour is this conversation.
33:09
And I'm all of a sudden like, oh God, this is so bad.
33:13
She's not getting assets or an income.
33:16
I'm like, finally understanding what's going on.
33:18
So she's trying to weave in, I guess,
33:20
is what the press is saying.
33:21
Some income into those child support payments.
33:23
And fear and not correct, yes.
33:25
I'm interested to know what rough percentage of prenupt
33:30
would not stand as they were signed today.
33:33
How many do get contested in your world
33:36
or that you know of, is it frequent
33:38
or is this quite an anomaly in terms of
33:41
being contesting a prenupt?
33:42
In my 23 years, I've been called upon
33:45
to try to invalidate maybe a handful.
33:48
And I think I've successfully done it twice.
33:50
They're, it's very hard to invalidate them.
33:52
I mean, it is, it's really,
33:54
so you really need to know, as I said,
33:57
going into it, you really need good counsel
34:00
who's going to negotiate and really fight for you
34:02
and really present to you the future.
34:05
You don't want these clients who are going to be
34:07
so star-strucked and so I'm getting married, you know,
34:09
it's like you want them to enjoy their blissful
34:12
like state that they're in, but this is like reality, right?
34:15
Like divorce really can happen.
34:18
And you really need to make sure
34:20
that you're really protected.
34:22
And as I said, going into this,
34:24
I feel bad for her like that she's not going to take it.
34:28
I know.
34:28
Honestly, I'm just like,
34:29
I guess we weren't there.
34:31
I know, I know, but I'm like,
34:32
also why did she sign it like surely someone said to her,
34:36
hey, should this happen?
34:38
You're going to get a million dollars like,
34:40
well, I guess there's always the view
34:41
that you married just never going to be in.
34:42
Or do you think she actually just didn't understand
34:44
what she was signing?
34:45
Because probably combination of both, yeah.
34:47
I mean, we can all make assumptions.
34:48
Yeah.
34:49
Right.
34:50
Right, and I don't want to begin to do that.
34:52
And so I just feel sorry for her though.
34:55
So on that track record,
34:57
the likelihood of this prenup being what are you called
35:00
opposed is probably pretty low.
35:03
Yeah, I think that it's pretty low.
35:06
Oh gosh.
35:07
But what I don't understand is why
35:09
they're just not negotiating.
35:11
And maybe they are, we just don't know
35:12
behind the scenes to make this go away
35:14
because the press is just ugly.
35:16
It doesn't look good.
35:17
He doesn't look good.
35:18
She doesn't look good.
35:19
No, the kids get dragged through the mud.
35:21
Yeah, exactly.
35:22
And more importantly and most importantly,
35:24
the kids are seeing all this.
35:25
They're seeing their parents
35:26
that they're worst possible place in their lives.
35:29
And it's just ugly.
35:31
Like why?
35:32
Yeah.
35:33
They have so much money like this can go away.
35:35
Make it go away.
35:37
It's making him look like he doesn't care about his family
35:40
or the press is kind of trying to make
35:42
her look like a greedy BITCH.
35:44
Yes, and it's under valuing her.
35:47
Yeah, and you would think,
35:48
given the amount of money,
35:50
that it would be something you would pay any amount
35:52
to be silenced and not.
35:54
I mean, I don't think either of them
35:55
are looking good in the situation, unfortunately,
35:57
which sucks.
35:58
No, no, no, there is.
36:00
I agree with you.
36:01
And I think she's very scared.
36:03
And I think I understand why she's
36:06
scared.
36:07
I think the thing is,
36:08
a lot of people don't have those conversations
36:11
because they're really confronting super awkward
36:13
or they haven't even thought about
36:15
how they like to spend money
36:16
or how they think about money
36:18
or maybe what kind of life they want.
36:19
You have to be so sure in yourself
36:22
and then you have to be able to communicate
36:24
that with another human.
36:25
And both of those things are really hard.
36:27
But if you don't want money to be the reason
36:30
that you divorce or something that turns
36:32
into a keeping cost,
36:33
then you have to just
36:35
suck those awkward conversations.
36:37
And I always say it's a bottle of wine
36:39
and it's over dinner and you get it over with, you know?
36:43
Maybe you take them up piece of clothing
36:44
every time you answer a question.
36:45
Yeah, make it saucy, make it fun, make it naked,
36:49
yeah, strip disclosure.
36:51
Yeah, right.
36:54
Thank you so much for all of your incredible eyes.
36:57
Oh, you're so welcome.
36:58
Thank you for having me.
36:59
This is so much fun.
37:00
Oh, it was so fun.
37:01
And I'm so going to put you to be my lawyer
37:03
when I get a print.
37:04
Well, you can't practice in New Zealand
37:07
and get like admitted pro-Hudby chain.
37:10
Thank you so much for listening to Raising the Curve.
37:13
These conversations are designed to teach you everything
37:15
that you need to know to be better with your money,
37:17
from saving, to investing,
37:19
to talking to your friends about your salaries.
37:21
And if you liked what you heard, we would love it.
37:24
If you could hit subscribe button, please.
37:26
Or leave a review at our own time.
37:29
It's a nice five seconds
37:30
and it would really make our week, our year, our month.
37:33
Okay, lots of love.
37:34
See you soon.
37:35
Bye.