Latest / The Science Diplomat / S1E9: Jan Lüdert on science diplomacy, global power and the future of scientific cooperation

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S1E9: Jan Lüdert on science diplomacy, global power and the future of scientific cooperation · The Science Diplomat

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SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to The Science
0:01
SPEAKER_03: Diplomat.
0:02
SPEAKER_03: I'm Amna Habiba, your
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SPEAKER_03: host with John and
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SPEAKER_03: Anneliese.
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SPEAKER_03: Our guest today is
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SPEAKER_03: Jan Lüdert, co-editor of
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SPEAKER_03: the Palgrave Handbook of Science
0:13
SPEAKER_03: Diplomacy.
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SPEAKER_03: Twenty-eight chapters, a huge
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SPEAKER_03: range of scholars and practitioners,
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SPEAKER_03: with one
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SPEAKER_03: claim running through the whole
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SPEAKER_03: thing that science diplomacy
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SPEAKER_03: isn't really about whether countries
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SPEAKER_03: cooperate anymore, but more
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SPEAKER_03: so about who is setting the
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SPEAKER_03: terms of that cooperation.
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SPEAKER_03: He has also worked as the head of
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SPEAKER_03: programs at the German Center for
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SPEAKER_03: Research and Innovation (DWIH) in
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SPEAKER_03: New York, essentially building
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SPEAKER_03: German and North American research
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SPEAKER_03: ties.
0:43
SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the show.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
0:47
SPEAKER_03: In your handbook, sovereignty is
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SPEAKER_03: becoming a question of capability
0:52
SPEAKER_03: rather than legal status.
0:54
SPEAKER_03: What do you think it actually means
0:56
SPEAKER_03: for a country that might
0:58
SPEAKER_03: not really own the computation,
1:01
SPEAKER_03: the cloud infrastructure or the lab
1:02
SPEAKER_03: that its own scientists
1:05
SPEAKER_03: can depend on?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let me maybe take
1:08
SPEAKER_00: a step back and talk a little
1:10
SPEAKER_00: bit about why we
1:12
SPEAKER_00: thought that we needed an updated
1:15
SPEAKER_00: framework and why we
1:17
SPEAKER_00: embarked on this project with the
1:19
SPEAKER_00: handbook.
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SPEAKER_00: The handbook started about
1:20
SPEAKER_00: two and a half years ago in a
1:22
SPEAKER_00: conversation I had with Martin
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SPEAKER_00: Wählisch here at the Permanent
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SPEAKER_00: Mission of Germany to the United
1:27
SPEAKER_00: Nations, also called the German
1:28
SPEAKER_00: House, where he visited me at the
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SPEAKER_00: German Center for Research and
1:31
SPEAKER_00: Innovation, when he was still
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SPEAKER_00: there at
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SPEAKER_00: the Innovation Cell at UN DPPA.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: The conversation we had really
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SPEAKER_00: started to be about
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SPEAKER_00: how technological disruption
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SPEAKER_00: is shifting science
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SPEAKER_00: diplomacy at a time when
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SPEAKER_00: we just started to begin
1:53
SPEAKER_00: at ChatGPT coming to the fore,
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SPEAKER_00: when we started to realize that
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SPEAKER_00: something bigger was happening.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: Little did we know that
2:01
SPEAKER_00: this disruption was then
2:03
SPEAKER_00: also compounded
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SPEAKER_00: by the geopolitical disruptions
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SPEAKER_00: that followed suit in the last
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SPEAKER_00: two years.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: And so the book
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SPEAKER_00: itself is a reaction
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SPEAKER_00: to those two larger
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SPEAKER_00: developments that we started to
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SPEAKER_00: observe.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: In addition to that, what we also
2:21
SPEAKER_00: wanted to achieve was
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SPEAKER_00: this longstanding debate in
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SPEAKER_00: the literature on science diplomacy
2:26
SPEAKER_00: that on the one hand has
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SPEAKER_00: decried that there's too little
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SPEAKER_00: empirical
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SPEAKER_00: conversation about what science
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SPEAKER_00: diplomacy actually achieves and its
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SPEAKER_00: impact, and at the same
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SPEAKER_00: time that there seemed to be some
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SPEAKER_00: sort of a disjuncture between
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SPEAKER_00: conceptual contributions that are
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SPEAKER_00: coming from practitioners that
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SPEAKER_00: have long talked about the
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SPEAKER_00: bridge-building aspects and the
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SPEAKER_00: cooperative aspects of science
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SPEAKER_00: diplomacy.
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SPEAKER_00: So we really wanted to
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SPEAKER_00: bring together both
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SPEAKER_00: a clearer empirical focus,
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SPEAKER_00: but also one that is grounded
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SPEAKER_00: in the practice of science diplomacy
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SPEAKER_00: that we understand is very
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SPEAKER_00: wide and broad.
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SPEAKER_00: And so with that in mind and
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SPEAKER_00: to your question, I
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SPEAKER_00: think what we're observing is,
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SPEAKER_00: and how we frame it, that science
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SPEAKER_00: diplomacy is shifting into a
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SPEAKER_00: so-called polycentric reality.
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SPEAKER_00: That means that we have more
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SPEAKER_00: overlapping centers of authority,
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SPEAKER_00: and the classical
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SPEAKER_00: dyadic relationship of science
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SPEAKER_00: diplomacy between states
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SPEAKER_00: has clearly been
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SPEAKER_00: altered by what we call the new
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SPEAKER_00: kids on the block.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: And the new kids on the block are,
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SPEAKER_00: on the one hand, of course, large
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SPEAKER_00: corporate actors and private actors
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SPEAKER_00: who are owning
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SPEAKER_00: and building and
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SPEAKER_00: also in many ways competing
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SPEAKER_00: on the infrastructures that
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SPEAKER_00: make compute possible,
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SPEAKER_00: data centers, of course, and so
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SPEAKER_00: forth.
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SPEAKER_00: But on the other, we also have
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SPEAKER_00: another range of actors and those
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SPEAKER_00: are universities and
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SPEAKER_00: consortia and other
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SPEAKER_00: actors that are very active within
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SPEAKER_00: evidence-building and knowledge
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SPEAKER_00: production of science diplomacy.
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SPEAKER_00: And so,
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SPEAKER_00: together with multilateral
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SPEAKER_00: institutions, we're observing a
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SPEAKER_00: crowded field.
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SPEAKER_00: Now what does that mean?
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SPEAKER_00: It means a much more complicated
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SPEAKER_00: picture of how science diplomacy
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SPEAKER_00: today operates.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's precisely why we
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SPEAKER_00: have engaged so many different
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SPEAKER_00: authors to showcase the
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SPEAKER_00: various ways in which
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SPEAKER_00: this type of polycentricity
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SPEAKER_00: is bearing out in reality
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SPEAKER_00: in the various institutions.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks for that.
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SPEAKER_01: And I just want to thank you again
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SPEAKER_01: for joining us.
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SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited about this
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SPEAKER_01: because I think this book is a huge
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SPEAKER_01: contribution to the field and it
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SPEAKER_01: gives us a lot to dig into.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to start with
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SPEAKER_01: your emphasis,
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SPEAKER_01: I guess, you could say on applying
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SPEAKER_01: what you call this polycentric lens
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SPEAKER_01: to everything.
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SPEAKER_01: And can you just explain for us
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SPEAKER_01: in plain language what that means
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SPEAKER_01: and why that was so important?
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SPEAKER_00: I think the simplest ways
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SPEAKER_00: would be to state that science
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SPEAKER_00: diplomacy is simply no longer just
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SPEAKER_00: something that happens primarily in
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SPEAKER_00: just, as I said, sort of
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SPEAKER_00: in between states in a dyadic
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SPEAKER_00: formation between two state
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SPEAKER_00: governments or inside foreign
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SPEAKER_00: ministries.
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SPEAKER_00: We today have multiple centers of
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SPEAKER_00: authority of influence from
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SPEAKER_00: governments, of course, they remain
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SPEAKER_00: extremely important.
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SPEAKER_00: But also like I said international
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SPEAKER_00: organizations, universities,
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SPEAKER_00: scientific societies.
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SPEAKER_00: But most importantly, perhaps,
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SPEAKER_00: companies and corporate actors.
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SPEAKER_00: But in addition to that, we also
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SPEAKER_00: have cities who are involved in
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SPEAKER_00: science diplomacy.
5:38
SPEAKER_00: We have standard bodies and so
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SPEAKER_00: forth.
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SPEAKER_00: At the same time, polycentricity
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SPEAKER_00: does not mean simply
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SPEAKER_00: that there are just more actors.
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SPEAKER_00: I think the real important question
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SPEAKER_00: that underlies this notion of
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SPEAKER_00: polycentricity is about
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SPEAKER_00: where authority really resides
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SPEAKER_00: today.
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SPEAKER_00: And as governments, for instance,
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SPEAKER_00: control export restrictions,
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SPEAKER_00: the university perhaps has more
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SPEAKER_00: access to researchers and
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SPEAKER_00: how collaborations are shaped,
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SPEAKER_00: while companies control,
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SPEAKER_00: as I said, the computing
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SPEAKER_00: infrastructure.
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SPEAKER_00: So all of this leads to
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SPEAKER_00: this question of who are we actually
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SPEAKER_00: talking to and who
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SPEAKER_00: has the authority, expertise,
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SPEAKER_00: infrastructure that makes scientific
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SPEAKER_00: cooperation possible.
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SPEAKER_00: So that's sort of the simplest way
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SPEAKER_00: to reframe or understand
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SPEAKER_00: science diplomacy in this moment.
6:32
SPEAKER_02: Drawing out what you were saying
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SPEAKER_02: before, many of the biggest
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SPEAKER_02: challenges we face today from
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SPEAKER_02: AI governance to climate change
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SPEAKER_02: involve networks of actors rather
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SPEAKER_02: than single decision makers.
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SPEAKER_02: So in this polycentric system like
6:44
SPEAKER_02: this, like the one you described,
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SPEAKER_02: how do accountability and
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SPEAKER_02: legitimacy actually work?
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SPEAKER_02: Who gets held accountable when
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SPEAKER_02: cooperation fails or harms occur?
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SPEAKER_02: And who ultimately owns
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SPEAKER_02: the problem?
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SPEAKER_02: And I guess in
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SPEAKER_02: this sense, you know, science
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SPEAKER_02: diplomacy can potentially help
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SPEAKER_02: us with a framework
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SPEAKER_02: of examining this?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think this is a great
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SPEAKER_00: question and also I think an
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SPEAKER_00: extremely difficult question to
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SPEAKER_00: answer because I think it's highly
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SPEAKER_00: dependent on the
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SPEAKER_00: issue area that we're discussing.
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SPEAKER_00: So I think a good example,
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SPEAKER_00: which you just mentioned,
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SPEAKER_00: is artificial intelligence.
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SPEAKER_00: And within the space of artificial
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SPEAKER_00: intelligence, on the one hand,
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SPEAKER_00: we have sort of accountability
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SPEAKER_00: that stems from sovereignty
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SPEAKER_00: issues and geostrategic
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SPEAKER_00: competition between
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SPEAKER_00: the major actors.
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SPEAKER_00: So on the one hand, we have the
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SPEAKER_00: Chinese model that is
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SPEAKER_00: the sort of open source model
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SPEAKER_00: to how AI should be developed
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SPEAKER_00: and whether it's corporate actors
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SPEAKER_00: who are working on LLMs or whether
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SPEAKER_00: it is universities with
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SPEAKER_00: the blessing from the Chinese
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SPEAKER_00: government.
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SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, we have more
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SPEAKER_00: proprietary models
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SPEAKER_00: here in the United States where
7:57
SPEAKER_00: there is, of course,
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SPEAKER_00: a struggle for strategic advantage.
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SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, as we've just
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SPEAKER_00: observed, when it comes to
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SPEAKER_00: legitimacy, when comes to
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SPEAKER_00: accountability, the latest
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SPEAKER_00: news from Anthropic and from
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SPEAKER_00: OpenAI and others who
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SPEAKER_00: are warning against the risk of AIs
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SPEAKER_00: and asking governments to
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SPEAKER_00: begin legislating.
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SPEAKER_00: And of course, that sort of is
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SPEAKER_00: a moment where there's a lot of
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SPEAKER_00: passing of the buck happening.
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SPEAKER_00: On the one hand, there is
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SPEAKER_00: a stated fear that one could
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SPEAKER_00: lose a geostrategic advantage
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SPEAKER_00: by limiting legislation
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SPEAKER_00: and accountability mechanisms
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SPEAKER_00: around artificial intelligence.
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SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, there is
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SPEAKER_00: a clear call by corporate actors
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SPEAKER_00: for legislation.
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SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, I also
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SPEAKER_00: sometimes question to
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SPEAKER_00: what extent this sort of
8:51
SPEAKER_00: call for legislation is actually one
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SPEAKER_00: that is based on a
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SPEAKER_00: risk assessment or whether that in
8:56
SPEAKER_00: and of itself is also
8:59
SPEAKER_00: a way to protect
9:01
SPEAKER_00: market space.
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SPEAKER_00: So all of which is to say that
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SPEAKER_00: legitimacy questions have really
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SPEAKER_00: become extremely convoluted.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: And what is really missing in this
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SPEAKER_00: conversation, which is what I think
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SPEAKER_00: science diplomacy can play an
9:13
SPEAKER_00: outsized role, is to
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SPEAKER_00: bring these various actors together
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SPEAKER_00: around a table around
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SPEAKER_00: a specific issue area.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: And here I also believe multilateral
9:24
SPEAKER_00: organizations like the United
9:26
SPEAKER_00: Nations can play an important
9:28
SPEAKER_00: role in engaging
9:30
SPEAKER_00: these various actors around finding
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SPEAKER_00: ways to locate
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SPEAKER_00: legitimacy, but then also
9:36
SPEAKER_00: enact the right policy that
9:39
SPEAKER_00: deals with the essential
9:41
SPEAKER_00: uncertainty of these new
9:42
SPEAKER_00: technologies.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is
9:44
SPEAKER_00: an underlying issue
9:47
SPEAKER_00: because uncertainty really
9:48
SPEAKER_00: has a couple of the chapters
9:50
SPEAKER_00: also very neatly outline,
9:54
SPEAKER_00: complicated our
9:56
SPEAKER_00: decision-making matrixes.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: And so ultimately we are
9:59
SPEAKER_00: in a convoluted field where,
10:02
SPEAKER_00: as I said, there's sort of this
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SPEAKER_00: passing of the buck around
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SPEAKER_00: legitimacy.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to follow up on that
10:07
SPEAKER_01: really fast because, you know,
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SPEAKER_01: as we all know, AI companies are
10:11
SPEAKER_01: moving faster than the governments
10:12
SPEAKER_01: can understand, much less regulate
10:14
SPEAKER_01: them.
10:15
SPEAKER_00: So has the balance of power shifted
10:17
SPEAKER_01: too far toward the companies
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SPEAKER_01: building the technologies and
10:22
SPEAKER_01: does science diplomacy
10:23
SPEAKER_01: even have the tools to influence
10:25
SPEAKER_01: AI governance at this point?
10:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is a hard question to
10:29
SPEAKER_00: answer.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: I think in many ways,
10:32
SPEAKER_00: technological disruptions like we
10:33
SPEAKER_00: are experiencing right now in
10:35
SPEAKER_00: some ways are extremely
10:38
SPEAKER_00: disruptive.
10:39
SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, I think the
10:41
SPEAKER_00: role of corporate actors in driving
10:44
SPEAKER_00: technological innovation is also not
10:46
SPEAKER_00: something particularly new.
10:47
SPEAKER_00: But so I think we are experiencing
10:49
SPEAKER_00: sort of a tug of
10:51
SPEAKER_00: war, if you will, between
10:53
SPEAKER_00: governments and corporate actors
10:55
SPEAKER_00: who are dealing with the supremacy
10:57
SPEAKER_00: here.
10:58
SPEAKER_00: So have governments lost control?
11:00
SPEAKER_00: I still believe that we live
11:02
SPEAKER_00: in a state system and states are
11:04
SPEAKER_00: still the most important
11:06
SPEAKER_00: and powerful actors.
11:08
SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, we should not
11:10
SPEAKER_00: underestimate the role of corporate
11:12
SPEAKER_00: actors who are clearly
11:13
SPEAKER_00: able to drive
11:15
SPEAKER_00: and determine outcomes in
11:17
SPEAKER_00: ways that are very novel.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: A great example, of course,
11:22
SPEAKER_00: one that comes to mind is
11:24
SPEAKER_00: how Starlink and the
11:26
SPEAKER_00: Starlink system is now
11:28
SPEAKER_00: involved in outcomes of
11:30
SPEAKER_00: war and peace in the Ukraine.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: I think a private actor
11:34
SPEAKER_00: like Palantir plays
11:36
SPEAKER_00: a role together with governments
11:39
SPEAKER_00: in these areas
11:40
SPEAKER_00: of war and peace.
11:43
SPEAKER_00: So I think governments
11:44
SPEAKER_00: are still in charge and
11:46
SPEAKER_00: I think it's up to them to
11:48
SPEAKER_00: ultimately also come to the table
11:50
SPEAKER_00: in a collective fashion to
11:52
SPEAKER_00: come up with the right legislative
11:55
SPEAKER_00: agendas and policies that
11:57
SPEAKER_00: can apply in a technology
11:59
SPEAKER_00: that ultimately does not really know
12:01
SPEAKER_00: boundaries.
12:02
SPEAKER_03: I was wondering, in your handbook,
12:05
SPEAKER_03: you've mentioned that
12:07
SPEAKER_03: the Global South was
12:08
SPEAKER_03: underrepresented.
12:10
SPEAKER_03: Do you think that gap arises
12:12
SPEAKER_03: within the research
12:14
SPEAKER_03: community more so, or a gap in
12:16
SPEAKER_03: who is being
12:18
SPEAKER_03: asked to partake in such
12:20
SPEAKER_03: environments?
12:22
SPEAKER_00: This is a very difficult
12:24
SPEAKER_00: question for me to respond
12:26
SPEAKER_00: to because Martin and I
12:28
SPEAKER_00: did a concerted effort in
12:30
SPEAKER_00: not only in the call for chapters,
12:32
SPEAKER_00: but also in our sort of individual
12:33
SPEAKER_00: outreach to make
12:35
SPEAKER_00: sure that we have more
12:36
SPEAKER_00: representation from the Global
12:38
SPEAKER_00: South.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: We do have some, but we
12:41
SPEAKER_00: certainly do not have enough.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: I think that
12:44
SPEAKER_00: ultimately is sort
12:46
SPEAKER_00: of a mismatch that
12:48
SPEAKER_00: exists in, unfortunately
12:50
SPEAKER_00: in academia, it's a structural issue
12:52
SPEAKER_00: that is in place.
12:54
SPEAKER_00: And so, as we said in the
12:56
SPEAKER_00: introductory chapter, we certainly
12:58
SPEAKER_00: hope that we will be able to
13:00
SPEAKER_00: engage more Global South scholars
13:02
SPEAKER_00: and practitioners in the field in
13:04
SPEAKER_00: the future.
13:05
SPEAKER_00: Currently, I'm editing a volume
13:07
SPEAKER_00: for Cambridge Science
13:09
SPEAKER_00: Diplomacy and Sustainability, where
13:11
SPEAKER_00: I think we're doing a better job
13:13
SPEAKER_00: at that.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: But I do believe it remains a
13:15
SPEAKER_00: challenge.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: Following on the geography, can you talk about
13:23
SPEAKER_01: why science diplomacy
13:26
SPEAKER_01: is such a huge factor
13:28
SPEAKER_01: for German foreign policy
13:30
SPEAKER_01: at this point, that there's a lot of
13:32
SPEAKER_01: talk that I was reading about the
13:34
SPEAKER_01: importance of it for Germany and for
13:36
SPEAKER_01: North America and the
13:39
SPEAKER_01: German-American relationship.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: And can you explain that and
13:44
SPEAKER_01: how that factored into the
13:46
SPEAKER_01: handbook?
13:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think that's a good
13:49
SPEAKER_00: moment to also just acknowledge
13:51
SPEAKER_00: that we as the German Center for
13:53
SPEAKER_00: Research Innovation New York are
13:55
SPEAKER_00: funded by the Foreign Office.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: We are centrally administered by
13:59
SPEAKER_00: the German Academic Exchange
14:00
SPEAKER_00: Service, which is the largest
14:02
SPEAKER_00: stipend provider in the world and
14:04
SPEAKER_00: working with international mobility
14:06
SPEAKER_00: of students.
14:07
SPEAKER_00: And we're extremely grateful
14:10
SPEAKER_00: for the Foreign Office to have
14:11
SPEAKER_00: supported this project in this way.
14:14
SPEAKER_00: And I think that in and of itself is
14:16
SPEAKER_00: sort of an indicator, as you just
14:18
SPEAKER_00: said, for how
14:20
SPEAKER_00: Germany has created a
14:22
SPEAKER_00: new outlook on science diplomacy.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: I think traditionally science
14:26
SPEAKER_00: diplomacy in Germany
14:28
SPEAKER_00: and in Europe has been perceived
14:30
SPEAKER_00: in this more soft power approach
14:32
SPEAKER_00: and less so in the real political
14:34
SPEAKER_00: approach which we're outlining in
14:36
SPEAKER_00: the book.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: And that ultimately is a reaction
14:39
SPEAKER_00: to the realities of how science
14:41
SPEAKER_00: diplomacy has, as
14:43
SPEAKER_00: we said, shifted in these
14:44
SPEAKER_00: technological and geostrategic
14:46
SPEAKER_00: areas.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: And in many ways,
14:48
SPEAKER_00: and this is my observation as
14:49
SPEAKER_00: someone who has been in North
14:51
SPEAKER_00: America for the better
14:53
SPEAKER_00: part of a decade or even longer,
14:55
SPEAKER_00: that in the United States, science
14:57
SPEAKER_00: diplomacy has always been understood
14:59
SPEAKER_00: as this sort of double-edged sword.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: On the one hand, it is a soft
15:03
SPEAKER_00: power tool, but on the other,
15:05
SPEAKER_00: it was never divorced from
15:07
SPEAKER_00: national interest.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: And I think that second part
15:10
SPEAKER_00: that science diplomacy
15:12
SPEAKER_00: is also a strategic tool
15:14
SPEAKER_00: and has to do with sovereignty
15:16
SPEAKER_00: capabilities is something that
15:18
SPEAKER_00: is understood more clearly in
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Germany, but I think the world over.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: And again, this is sort of just a
15:24
SPEAKER_00: reaction to the empirical realities
15:27
SPEAKER_00: that we're observing in the book.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: And again, following in that the
15:32
SPEAKER_01: book talks a lot about how
15:34
SPEAKER_01: science diplomacy isn't inherently
15:36
SPEAKER_01: benevolent.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: That we're talking
15:40
SPEAKER_01: about the sort
15:42
SPEAKER_01: of the initial maybe
15:44
SPEAKER_01: rose-colored glasses version of
15:47
SPEAKER_01: science diplomacy as,
15:49
SPEAKER_01: idealistic cooperation and whatnot.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: But you're talking about it as more
15:53
SPEAKER_01: of an instrument of power.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: And I'm just wondering, since we
15:57
SPEAKER_01: are talking about Europe and North
15:58
SPEAKER_01: America at this point, can
16:00
SPEAKER_01: you apply that to what's happening
16:02
SPEAKER_01: now with Canada,
16:05
SPEAKER_01: rather than becoming the 51st state,
16:07
SPEAKER_01: becoming maybe the 28th
16:09
SPEAKER_01: member of the European Union,
16:11
SPEAKER_01: without speculating, of course.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: But how,
16:14
SPEAKER_01: in this case, could science
16:16
SPEAKER_01: diplomacy play a role in this?
16:18
SPEAKER_01: Or do you think it's fair to
16:20
SPEAKER_01: apply that lens to this?
16:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, that's
16:24
SPEAKER_00: a question I think one can approach
16:26
SPEAKER_00: from different angles.
16:28
SPEAKER_00: Perhaps the first
16:30
SPEAKER_00: unit of analysis here is
16:32
SPEAKER_00: that I don't believe
16:34
SPEAKER_00: that science diplomacy ever
16:36
SPEAKER_00: was just a cooperative mechanism.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: I think many practitioners had
16:40
SPEAKER_00: discussed it in that
16:43
SPEAKER_00: particular soft power romanticized
16:45
SPEAKER_00: bridge-building approach only,
16:48
SPEAKER_00: without fully acknowledging
16:50
SPEAKER_00: the national interest
16:52
SPEAKER_00: implications that have always been
16:54
SPEAKER_00: part and parcel of what
16:56
SPEAKER_00: science diplomacy is on the ground
16:58
SPEAKER_00: in empirical ways.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: So I think that ultimately is
17:02
SPEAKER_00: just sort of a recalibration
17:04
SPEAKER_00: of how we have a more
17:06
SPEAKER_00: realistic view on
17:08
SPEAKER_00: what science diplomacy is and what
17:10
SPEAKER_00: it can achieve.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: And in the more particular case of
17:13
SPEAKER_00: the sort of disruptions that
17:15
SPEAKER_00: we are observing right now, these
17:17
SPEAKER_00: political disruptions,
17:19
SPEAKER_00: I think that leads to sort of
17:21
SPEAKER_00: another way of also approaching
17:23
SPEAKER_00: science diplomacy as
17:26
SPEAKER_00: a mechanism that is
17:27
SPEAKER_00: still important above
17:29
SPEAKER_00: and beyond the political sphere.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: Scientific cooperation is
17:34
SPEAKER_00: active, is flourishing.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: I observe that every day in my work
17:37
SPEAKER_00: in the transatlantic context.
17:40
SPEAKER_00: We of course also work with our
17:42
SPEAKER_00: Canadian partners.
17:43
SPEAKER_00: So that ultimately means
17:45
SPEAKER_00: that we also have to pay attention
17:47
SPEAKER_00: to how the science diplomacy is,
17:49
SPEAKER_00: and again, this is the polycentric
17:51
SPEAKER_00: turn, is actually enacted
17:53
SPEAKER_00: between institutions, between
17:55
SPEAKER_00: universities.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: What new cooperative agreements are
17:58
SPEAKER_00: coming to the fore?
17:59
SPEAKER_00: What new international mobility
18:01
SPEAKER_00: programs are being developed?
18:03
SPEAKER_00: And in that sense, we can also
18:05
SPEAKER_00: in some part much
18:07
SPEAKER_00: better operationalize what science
18:09
SPEAKER_00: diplomacy is.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: And we've all heard the news
18:12
SPEAKER_00: yesterday that Ursula von der
18:14
SPEAKER_00: Leyen has invited Canada
18:16
SPEAKER_00: to become an associate member of the
18:18
SPEAKER_00: European Union.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: And all of those are sort of
18:20
SPEAKER_00: political processes which then have
18:22
SPEAKER_00: implications, for instance,
18:24
SPEAKER_00: for Horizon Europe, or for
18:27
SPEAKER_00: cooperative agreements between the
18:28
SPEAKER_00: German Research Foundation and
18:30
SPEAKER_00: NSERC, for instance.
18:31
SPEAKER_00: So I think we really
18:33
SPEAKER_00: have to take an empirical look
18:35
SPEAKER_00: at what is happening on
18:38
SPEAKER_00: the one hand, on the political side,
18:40
SPEAKER_00: but then really
18:41
SPEAKER_00: take a much closer look at how that
18:43
SPEAKER_00: comes to bear at the operational
18:45
SPEAKER_00: side with institutions that are
18:46
SPEAKER_00: involved.
18:48
SPEAKER_03: You mentioned that science
18:50
SPEAKER_03: diplomacy has been
18:52
SPEAKER_03: considered more of this
18:54
SPEAKER_03: cooperation between countries.
18:55
SPEAKER_03: I wanted to ask you the question we
18:56
SPEAKER_03: asked this lot of our guests.
18:58
SPEAKER_03: Do you consider yourself a science
18:59
SPEAKER_03: diplomat?
19:01
SPEAKER_00: Yes, of course, it would be hard
19:03
SPEAKER_00: for me not to.
19:05
SPEAKER_00: And again, I think I
19:07
SPEAKER_00: encountered this quite often that
19:10
SPEAKER_00: when we talk about science diplomacy
19:12
SPEAKER_00: and actorhood and agency,
19:14
SPEAKER_00: that many of us are engaged
19:16
SPEAKER_00: in this interface
19:18
SPEAKER_00: between how
19:20
SPEAKER_00: evidence impacts policy,
19:22
SPEAKER_00: how policy is impacted by
19:24
SPEAKER_00: knowledge.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: So the tripartite
19:26
SPEAKER_00: system that the AAAS and
19:28
SPEAKER_00: Royal Society have developed
19:32
SPEAKER_00: a few years ago
19:32
SPEAKER_00: is of course still absolutely
19:34
SPEAKER_00: relevant.
19:35
SPEAKER_00: And ultimately it's
19:36
SPEAKER_00: important that we as
19:38
SPEAKER_00: individuals understand what
19:40
SPEAKER_00: is our precise role and
19:42
SPEAKER_00: what are our responsibilities as
19:44
SPEAKER_00: agents within science diplomacy
19:47
SPEAKER_00: as a field and as a mechanism, which
19:50
SPEAKER_00: ultimately also leads to this
19:51
SPEAKER_00: sort of new focus as the European
19:53
SPEAKER_00: Union has outlined that it's
19:55
SPEAKER_00: also about capacity building.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: That it's also about
19:59
SPEAKER_00: that actors today and scientists,
20:00
SPEAKER_00: for instance, today, but also
20:02
SPEAKER_00: policymakers and others,
20:04
SPEAKER_00: institutional leaders need the
20:06
SPEAKER_00: right training to be able to
20:07
SPEAKER_00: translate some of their
20:09
SPEAKER_00: perspectives and some of their
20:11
SPEAKER_00: interests in this sort of
20:13
SPEAKER_00: crowded field of science diplomacy.
20:15
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's very important.
20:17
SPEAKER_00: Yes, we can label ourselves as
20:19
SPEAKER_00: a science diplomat, but ultimately
20:21
SPEAKER_00: it's then also about the skill set
20:23
SPEAKER_00: that's relevant and
20:25
SPEAKER_00: required to be an effective
20:27
SPEAKER_00: science diplomat.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's a very important
20:29
SPEAKER_00: distinction here.
20:31
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for sharing that.
20:33
SPEAKER_03: I've been actually wondering about
20:34
SPEAKER_03: this for some time.
20:36
SPEAKER_03: The money, what really happens
20:39
SPEAKER_03: when we are talking about
20:41
SPEAKER_03: is it a national scientific
20:42
SPEAKER_03: cooperation?
20:43
SPEAKER_03: Everything has a
20:44
SPEAKER_03: funding source attached to it.
20:46
SPEAKER_03: Maybe a government ministry or
20:48
SPEAKER_03: a foundation or a company.
20:51
SPEAKER_03: How good is tracing
20:52
SPEAKER_03: who's paying for these
20:54
SPEAKER_03: collaborations tell us about
20:57
SPEAKER_03: how science diplomacy actually is
20:58
SPEAKER_03: functioning?
21:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, what's the dictum?
21:01
SPEAKER_00: Follow the money?
21:02
SPEAKER_00: Of course, you
21:02
SPEAKER_00: know, that's also one of the reasons
21:04
SPEAKER_00: why we have these
21:06
SPEAKER_00: sort of three areas of
21:08
SPEAKER_00: empirical investigation that
21:10
SPEAKER_00: we're outlining in the book:
21:11
SPEAKER_00: authority, infrastructure and
21:13
SPEAKER_00: expertise.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: So all of these are ultimately all
21:16
SPEAKER_00: connected to resources
21:19
SPEAKER_00: and resource allocation.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: So in science diplomacy,
21:23
SPEAKER_00: we have many areas where of
21:25
SPEAKER_00: course, funding streams and
21:27
SPEAKER_00: government funding streams are
21:28
SPEAKER_00: extremely important to
21:30
SPEAKER_00: set the rails of
21:32
SPEAKER_00: scientific cooperation,
21:34
SPEAKER_00: whether it's major funding agencies
21:36
SPEAKER_00: who are supporting research around
21:38
SPEAKER_00: the world.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: But then of course, on the other
21:40
SPEAKER_00: hand, we also have the
21:42
SPEAKER_00: role of not only federal
21:44
SPEAKER_00: governments, but also local
21:45
SPEAKER_00: governments, cities, who are
21:47
SPEAKER_00: also supporting scientific endeavors
21:49
SPEAKER_00: or technological implementation
21:52
SPEAKER_00: in their cities.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: So again, we need to really look at
21:55
SPEAKER_00: the various actors and
21:58
SPEAKER_00: their specific role in
22:00
SPEAKER_00: supporting the science diplomatic
22:03
SPEAKER_00: missions in their
22:05
SPEAKER_00: respective, sort of, how
22:07
SPEAKER_00: they're situated in those fields.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: And I, of course, need
22:10
SPEAKER_00: to mention corporate actors here
22:12
SPEAKER_00: again, where we, of
22:14
SPEAKER_00: course, have an outsized sort
22:16
SPEAKER_00: of investment at
22:18
SPEAKER_00: the moment in these technologies,
22:20
SPEAKER_00: in these infrastructures, which
22:22
SPEAKER_00: come to bear.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: And we are not quite sure whether
22:25
SPEAKER_00: or not these types of investments
22:26
SPEAKER_00: are necessarily leading
22:28
SPEAKER_00: to sort of
22:30
SPEAKER_00: monetization that is
22:32
SPEAKER_00: feasible.
22:33
SPEAKER_00: I think that is still up
22:34
SPEAKER_00: in the air.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: I think we have a lot of
22:35
SPEAKER_00: investments at the moment,
22:37
SPEAKER_00: especially in AI, but also
22:39
SPEAKER_00: by technology and quantum computing.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: But some of these, of course,
22:44
SPEAKER_00: are also moonshot projects.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think there, we're also
22:47
SPEAKER_00: observing a little bit of a shift,
22:49
SPEAKER_00: because moonshot projects are
22:51
SPEAKER_00: inherently risky in terms
22:53
SPEAKER_00: of their funding.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: And so that's why it has long
22:57
SPEAKER_00: been the prerogative of governments
22:59
SPEAKER_00: to support these projects.
23:01
SPEAKER_00: But now we're also seeing sort of
23:04
SPEAKER_00: at least in some countries,
23:05
SPEAKER_00: a retrenchment from these larger
23:07
SPEAKER_00: projects.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: So how will that come to
23:09
SPEAKER_00: bear in terms of whether corporate
23:11
SPEAKER_00: actors or others will come to
23:13
SPEAKER_00: the fore to continue supporting
23:15
SPEAKER_00: these types of moonshot projects?
23:17
SPEAKER_00: I think that's an interesting
23:18
SPEAKER_00: sort of observation which we
23:20
SPEAKER_00: now need to
23:22
SPEAKER_00: take a careful look at.
23:24
SPEAKER_02: So thank you for that.
23:25
SPEAKER_02: I know one thing that I was
23:27
SPEAKER_02: very pleased to see was that
23:29
SPEAKER_02: the Palgrave Handbook
23:32
SPEAKER_02: of Science Diplomacy
23:33
SPEAKER_02: is open access.
23:35
SPEAKER_02: And so I'm always excited
23:37
SPEAKER_02: to know when something that's
23:39
SPEAKER_02: a major volume like that is
23:40
SPEAKER_02: available to so many people.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: I think it reflects a core principle
23:44
SPEAKER_02: of science itself that knowledge
23:46
SPEAKER_02: should flow across borders
23:48
SPEAKER_02: and be broadly and
23:50
SPEAKER_02: so at the same time,
23:52
SPEAKER_02: we're living in a period when
23:53
SPEAKER_02: governments increasingly view
23:55
SPEAKER_02: scientific knowledge,
23:57
SPEAKER_02: data, technical capabilities
23:59
SPEAKER_02: and so forth as assets tied to their
24:02
SPEAKER_02: national security and
24:03
SPEAKER_02: competitiveness.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: We've mentioned
24:04
SPEAKER_02: that earlier.
24:05
SPEAKER_02: Can we credibly talk
24:06
SPEAKER_02: about open science, or are we
24:07
SPEAKER_02: entering an area where science
24:10
SPEAKER_02: diplomacy might be more
24:12
SPEAKER_02: tasked with managing information
24:14
SPEAKER_02: that cannot be shared or working
24:16
SPEAKER_02: at that intersection
24:18
SPEAKER_02: in greater depth?
24:21
SPEAKER_00: I think maybe let me
24:22
SPEAKER_00: just say a couple of words about the
24:24
SPEAKER_00: open access piece.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: That is, of course, thanks to
24:28
SPEAKER_00: the German Academic Exchange Service
24:30
SPEAKER_00: and also the Foreign Office who
24:33
SPEAKER_00: have been supportive
24:34
SPEAKER_00: of this project.
24:35
SPEAKER_00: And that's just a stated
24:37
SPEAKER_00: goal of the
24:39
SPEAKER_00: German Foreign Ministry to
24:41
SPEAKER_00: have this type of work to be open
24:42
SPEAKER_00: access, to be widely available.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: And in fact,
24:46
SPEAKER_00: I just had a call yesterday with our
24:48
SPEAKER_00: editor Anca Pusca at Palgrave.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: And she shared
24:51
SPEAKER_00: with me that the book has since it's
24:53
SPEAKER_00: come out been downloaded 39,000
24:56
SPEAKER_00: times.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's
24:58
SPEAKER_00: a pretty amazing feat.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: And I was very surprised and
25:01
SPEAKER_00: humbled by that realization.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: To your question about open science
25:06
SPEAKER_00: versus sort of security concerns
25:08
SPEAKER_00: and risk assessment, I think
25:10
SPEAKER_00: we shouldn't approach this as sort
25:12
SPEAKER_00: of an either/or dichotomy.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: I think open science
25:15
SPEAKER_00: is and continues to be the basis
25:17
SPEAKER_00: of scientific discovery.
25:20
SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to research
25:21
SPEAKER_00: security, export control mechanisms
25:23
SPEAKER_00: and so forth, those have
25:25
SPEAKER_00: become more important because
25:27
SPEAKER_00: national security considerations
25:30
SPEAKER_00: are part and parcel of
25:32
SPEAKER_00: also securing open science systems
25:34
SPEAKER_00: to be functional.
25:35
SPEAKER_00: And so we have to approach the
25:37
SPEAKER_00: security piece in a sort of a
25:39
SPEAKER_00: risk reflexive approach and
25:40
SPEAKER_00: understand that certain risks exist
25:42
SPEAKER_00: when certain cooperations are
25:44
SPEAKER_00: underway.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: And again, equip scientists
25:47
SPEAKER_00: and others with the right tools
25:50
SPEAKER_00: and with the right support
25:51
SPEAKER_00: mechanisms to assess that risk,
25:54
SPEAKER_00: but to assess the risk not
25:56
SPEAKER_00: in a way to close
25:58
SPEAKER_00: cooperations, but to
26:00
SPEAKER_00: make them possible and to make them
26:02
SPEAKER_00: resilient.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: I was wondering, just the process
26:06
SPEAKER_01: of creating
26:07
SPEAKER_01: an open access book,
26:09
SPEAKER_01: did that change the way that the
26:11
SPEAKER_01: book itself ended up?
26:14
SPEAKER_01: And also, I was wondering, as
26:16
SPEAKER_01: you personally worked on the
26:18
SPEAKER_01: handbook, and you had, I think, what
26:20
SPEAKER_01: 52 contributors, what did
26:22
SPEAKER_01: you personally learn that changed
26:23
SPEAKER_01: your thinking about science
26:25
SPEAKER_01: diplomacy?
26:26
SPEAKER_00: I think this must be my favorite
26:27
SPEAKER_00: question so far, because
26:31
SPEAKER_00: the idea of the book itself
26:33
SPEAKER_00: started in a conversation
26:35
SPEAKER_00: between me and Martin, and then
26:37
SPEAKER_00: between the leadership at the
26:39
SPEAKER_00: German Center for Research
26:41
SPEAKER_00: and Innovation, who supported this
26:43
SPEAKER_00: from the outset.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: But then we also thought about
26:47
SPEAKER_00: the outcome of the book is
26:50
SPEAKER_00: the nice thing to have at the end.
26:51
SPEAKER_00: But what we really were after
26:53
SPEAKER_00: is to create a sort of a
26:55
SPEAKER_00: network of, a community of practice,
26:57
SPEAKER_00: if you will, of scholars, of
26:59
SPEAKER_00: practitioners who are active in the
27:01
SPEAKER_00: field of science diplomacy.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: And we very consciously and
27:04
SPEAKER_00: intentionally built
27:06
SPEAKER_00: this project of the book
27:08
SPEAKER_00: into the work at the German Center
27:09
SPEAKER_00: for Research and Innovation
27:11
SPEAKER_00: insofar as we initially had a
27:13
SPEAKER_00: call for chapters, where we were
27:15
SPEAKER_00: very surprised to have so
27:17
SPEAKER_00: many excellent contributions.
27:19
SPEAKER_00: And we then had to make some very
27:21
SPEAKER_00: difficult choices because we had
27:22
SPEAKER_00: more interest
27:25
SPEAKER_00: than what we could
27:27
SPEAKER_00: ultimately include
27:28
SPEAKER_00: in the book.
27:30
SPEAKER_00: We then had a book workshop where
27:32
SPEAKER_00: we invited all
27:34
SPEAKER_00: the authors for an initial
27:35
SPEAKER_00: conversation, which really
27:37
SPEAKER_00: shaped the direction of the book,
27:40
SPEAKER_00: and then we also
27:42
SPEAKER_00: invited all the authors to our
27:44
SPEAKER_00: flagship event, which is the Future
27:46
SPEAKER_00: Forum, which we had organized
27:48
SPEAKER_00: in collaboration with
27:50
SPEAKER_00: the Johns Hopkins Science Diplomacy
27:52
SPEAKER_00: Hub in Washington, D.C.,
27:54
SPEAKER_00: where we had a
27:56
SPEAKER_00: first sort of round of public
27:58
SPEAKER_00: engagements on the chapters and the
28:00
SPEAKER_00: authors with a broader audience in
28:01
SPEAKER_00: the D.C. area.
28:03
SPEAKER_00: And all of that then led to, of
28:05
SPEAKER_00: course, then submitting the book to
28:06
SPEAKER_00: various publishers and
28:09
SPEAKER_00: that required a lot of patience and
28:10
SPEAKER_00: perseverance on the part of myself
28:13
SPEAKER_00: and Martin and the team
28:15
SPEAKER_00: who sits behind this.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: And so the
28:18
SPEAKER_00: book in many ways is just the end
28:20
SPEAKER_00: result and sort of also our
28:22
SPEAKER_00: idea of creating a long-lasting
28:25
SPEAKER_00: platform of a community of
28:27
SPEAKER_00: practice on these 52
28:29
SPEAKER_00: authors who Martin
28:30
SPEAKER_00: and I are so incredibly thankful
28:32
SPEAKER_00: for, for not only their
28:34
SPEAKER_00: contribution, but also the way
28:36
SPEAKER_00: that they have enriched this project
28:38
SPEAKER_00: and helped us to really
28:39
SPEAKER_00: shape the direction of the
28:41
SPEAKER_00: volume itself.
28:43
SPEAKER_03: I wanted to ask you something as
28:45
SPEAKER_03: a scientist in training.
28:48
SPEAKER_03: Research security is supposed
28:50
SPEAKER_03: to protect research,
28:52
SPEAKER_03: but I'm curious where maybe
28:54
SPEAKER_03: you've seen that tip over into
28:56
SPEAKER_03: something that shuts down good
28:58
SPEAKER_03: research.
28:58
SPEAKER_03: Is there maybe a specific case
29:01
SPEAKER_03: that could come in mind to you or
29:02
SPEAKER_03: any antidotes that you've seen
29:04
SPEAKER_03: along your experience?
29:06
SPEAKER_00: To my mind, research security,
29:08
SPEAKER_00: of course, is an extremely critical
29:10
SPEAKER_00: subset of science diplomacy.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to what, again,
29:15
SPEAKER_00: this goes back to sort of risk
29:17
SPEAKER_00: reflexivity, I believe.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: Research security is of course
29:20
SPEAKER_00: something that many countries
29:22
SPEAKER_00: contend with, but it's also
29:24
SPEAKER_00: something that individual
29:25
SPEAKER_00: researchers have to contend with or
29:27
SPEAKER_00: research projects.
29:28
SPEAKER_00: And so, researchers
29:30
SPEAKER_00: who already have and
29:32
SPEAKER_00: should be focusing, first and
29:34
SPEAKER_00: foremost, on their science,
29:36
SPEAKER_00: now also being tasked with
29:39
SPEAKER_00: sort of understanding whether or
29:41
SPEAKER_00: not a postdoc that they're inviting
29:43
SPEAKER_00: or whether their
29:45
SPEAKER_00: data systems are secure.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: And so that really complicates
29:49
SPEAKER_00: sort of the core function of
29:51
SPEAKER_00: scientists to be able to do their
29:53
SPEAKER_00: work.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: And I think here it is really
29:55
SPEAKER_00: important that we
29:57
SPEAKER_00: have the right mechanisms in
29:59
SPEAKER_00: place to on the one hand bring
30:01
SPEAKER_00: awareness to scientists about
30:03
SPEAKER_00: potential risks in
30:05
SPEAKER_00: an attempt to keep science open
30:07
SPEAKER_00: as possible,
30:09
SPEAKER_00: and at the same time also build up
30:12
SPEAKER_00: the institutional support mechanisms
30:14
SPEAKER_00: at universities and elsewhere to
30:16
SPEAKER_00: be able to make
30:18
SPEAKER_00: those decisions about inviting
30:20
SPEAKER_00: researchers and
30:22
SPEAKER_00: ensuring that research
30:24
SPEAKER_00: output has not been
30:25
SPEAKER_00: taken away by nefarious actors.
30:27
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's really a big
30:29
SPEAKER_00: institutional task that is
30:30
SPEAKER_00: in front of us.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, it does
30:34
SPEAKER_00: require scientists to be more
30:36
SPEAKER_00: aware of the risks, I
30:38
SPEAKER_00: think, in a way than they had
30:40
SPEAKER_00: to previously.
30:41
SPEAKER_01: Just following on that, the
30:43
SPEAKER_01: awareness and the decision-making
30:44
SPEAKER_01: that you're talking about, I wonder,
30:46
SPEAKER_01: on the one hand, scientific
30:47
SPEAKER_01: cooperation depends on openness,
30:50
SPEAKER_01: and research security starts from
30:52
SPEAKER_01: the recognition that openness can
30:53
SPEAKER_01: also create vulnerabilities.
30:55
SPEAKER_01: So where do you draw the
30:57
SPEAKER_01: line?
30:58
SPEAKER_01: And are there circumstances where
31:00
SPEAKER_01: that means scientific cooperation
31:02
SPEAKER_01: with another country should
31:03
SPEAKER_01: just stop altogether?
31:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think where we draw the line
31:08
SPEAKER_00: is on the one hand, Germany,
31:10
SPEAKER_00: as you know, we have
31:11
SPEAKER_00: constitutionally enshrined
31:13
SPEAKER_00: open science and scientific
31:15
SPEAKER_00: freedom.
31:16
SPEAKER_00: So scientists still are,
31:19
SPEAKER_00: especially in the German context,
31:21
SPEAKER_00: deciding over who to cooperate with.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: At the same time, there are other
31:25
SPEAKER_00: actors involved who
31:27
SPEAKER_00: may be aware of risks.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: And so it's in many
31:31
SPEAKER_00: ways, it's sort of about,
31:33
SPEAKER_00: who do you ask?
31:34
SPEAKER_00: Right?
31:35
SPEAKER_00: And this again leads back
31:37
SPEAKER_00: to this sort of inter-agency
31:38
SPEAKER_00: approach that needs to be
31:39
SPEAKER_00: established because a national
31:41
SPEAKER_00: intelligence agency, of course, has
31:42
SPEAKER_00: different insights than a university
31:45
SPEAKER_00: professor.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: But how do we balance
31:48
SPEAKER_00: that again in an
31:49
SPEAKER_00: approach to keep open science
31:52
SPEAKER_00: possible.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: It's the task that is in front
31:54
SPEAKER_00: of us and I think perhaps
31:56
SPEAKER_00: some of you know here in the United
31:58
SPEAKER_00: States there is one conference,
32:00
SPEAKER_00: the so-called ASCE Conference,
32:02
SPEAKER_00: which happens every spring
32:04
SPEAKER_00: at Texas A&M,
32:06
SPEAKER_00: does precisely that.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: It brings together people who
32:10
SPEAKER_00: are working on export
32:12
SPEAKER_00: control, people from intelligence
32:14
SPEAKER_00: agencies, but also those
32:16
SPEAKER_00: who are building platforms to help
32:18
SPEAKER_00: researchers determine whether
32:20
SPEAKER_00: there are certain risks involved
32:22
SPEAKER_00: with engaging certain researchers
32:25
SPEAKER_00: and institutions.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: So all of that, I think, is
32:28
SPEAKER_00: certainly happening.
32:31
SPEAKER_00: And this is maybe me being slightly
32:33
SPEAKER_00: pessimistic.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: I also believe that when it comes to
32:36
SPEAKER_00: research security, it will always
32:38
SPEAKER_00: be sort of an
32:40
SPEAKER_00: issue where we are running behind
32:42
SPEAKER_00: the curve.
32:44
SPEAKER_00: It is sort of you're trying your
32:45
SPEAKER_00: best to avert
32:48
SPEAKER_00: issues, but at
32:50
SPEAKER_00: the same time, there will
32:52
SPEAKER_00: always a way in which nefarious
32:54
SPEAKER_00: actors will find ways to
32:56
SPEAKER_00: exploit individual researchers,
32:58
SPEAKER_00: individual institutions or avenues
33:01
SPEAKER_00: that will
33:03
SPEAKER_00: result in theft or
33:05
SPEAKER_00: the like.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's also just an
33:08
SPEAKER_00: awareness that we have to have
33:09
SPEAKER_00: around research security and
33:11
SPEAKER_00: creating the right capacities so
33:13
SPEAKER_00: that individual researchers can
33:15
SPEAKER_00: continue to do the work.
33:17
SPEAKER_02: I have a bit of a follow up to that.
33:18
SPEAKER_02: I actually have two questions.
33:19
SPEAKER_02: At what point does this research,
33:21
SPEAKER_02: you know, what you're talking about
33:22
SPEAKER_02: with research partnerships kind of
33:24
SPEAKER_02: stop being a form of scientific
33:26
SPEAKER_02: cooperations and also
33:28
SPEAKER_02: become something that's a little bit
33:29
SPEAKER_02: more vulnerable?
33:30
SPEAKER_02: Should there be different elements
33:33
SPEAKER_02: that make that call, whether it's
33:35
SPEAKER_02: the scientists themselves or
33:36
SPEAKER_02: scientific bodies, universities,
33:39
SPEAKER_02: security agencies, or is it really
33:40
SPEAKER_02: the role of government?
33:41
SPEAKER_02: So where do we see that call being
33:43
SPEAKER_02: made?
33:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think the call should
33:47
SPEAKER_00: be within the scientific community
33:50
SPEAKER_00: because innovation and
33:52
SPEAKER_00: open science is a public good
33:54
SPEAKER_00: that has resulted
33:56
SPEAKER_00: in incredible achievements the
33:58
SPEAKER_00: world over.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: And
34:01
SPEAKER_00: I personally would be concerned
34:03
SPEAKER_00: about if freedom
34:05
SPEAKER_00: of discovery would
34:07
SPEAKER_00: be curtailed by
34:09
SPEAKER_00: sort of strategic considerations
34:11
SPEAKER_00: only.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: And so, ultimately, it's
34:14
SPEAKER_00: about an engagement between
34:16
SPEAKER_00: government, between those
34:18
SPEAKER_00: agencies and scientists
34:20
SPEAKER_00: to create,
34:22
SPEAKER_00: again, this term which
34:23
SPEAKER_00: I think is very apt is
34:25
SPEAKER_00: sort of a risk reflexive approach
34:27
SPEAKER_00: that increases openness
34:29
SPEAKER_00: as much as possible, but minimizes
34:31
SPEAKER_00: risk to the degree that it is
34:33
SPEAKER_00: necessary.
34:35
SPEAKER_02: And so I guess I'm really
34:37
SPEAKER_02: curious, because you had mentioned
34:38
SPEAKER_02: you'd been in the U.S.
34:39
SPEAKER_02: for 10 years, and you've been
34:40
SPEAKER_02: working on this book for a bit,
34:42
SPEAKER_02: a stretch.
34:42
SPEAKER_02: So I'm thinking a little bit further
34:44
SPEAKER_02: into the future.
34:45
SPEAKER_02: So if we were having this
34:46
SPEAKER_02: conversation 10 years from
34:48
SPEAKER_02: now, what would success
34:50
SPEAKER_02: for science diplomacy look like?
34:51
SPEAKER_02: It's really changed in the last 10
34:53
SPEAKER_02: years, so I imagine there'll be a
34:55
SPEAKER_02: lot of change.
34:55
SPEAKER_02: So what would you
34:56
SPEAKER_02: hope has changed?
34:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is the crystal ball
35:00
SPEAKER_00: question.
35:01
SPEAKER_00: Of course, I
35:02
SPEAKER_00: think I'm a big proponent of
35:05
SPEAKER_00: living in a world where
35:06
SPEAKER_00: scientific discovery leads to
35:09
SPEAKER_00: better evidence-based
35:10
SPEAKER_00: decision-making that governments and
35:12
SPEAKER_00: other actors can use in the
35:14
SPEAKER_00: pursuit of better
35:16
SPEAKER_00: public goods that are provided to
35:18
SPEAKER_00: society.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: And I think that
35:20
SPEAKER_00: sort of science policy
35:22
SPEAKER_00: society interface is
35:24
SPEAKER_00: really the task of science diplomacy
35:26
SPEAKER_00: now and in 10
35:28
SPEAKER_00: years from now.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: And which ultimately requires,
35:32
SPEAKER_00: and this is also our attempt with
35:33
SPEAKER_00: the book, to understand that
35:36
SPEAKER_00: we need to pay better attention
35:38
SPEAKER_00: to the types of actors and the
35:40
SPEAKER_00: various issue areas in which science
35:41
SPEAKER_00: diplomacy is enacted and happens.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: And to ultimately increase
35:47
SPEAKER_00: what we have called for
35:49
SPEAKER_00: is sort of the epistemic commons,
35:51
SPEAKER_00: which we believe continues to be
35:53
SPEAKER_00: sort of the underlying impetus
35:55
SPEAKER_00: for science diplomacy to
35:57
SPEAKER_00: play that role in the future.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: So I would hope that we are working
36:01
SPEAKER_00: towards that model.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: And at the same time, I'm also
36:04
SPEAKER_00: realistic enough
36:06
SPEAKER_00: and, although I'm a constructivist
36:08
SPEAKER_00: by training, with my international
36:10
SPEAKER_00: relations scholar background,
36:13
SPEAKER_00: I also sort of have
36:14
SPEAKER_00: come to terms with that we
36:16
SPEAKER_00: are in a world of real
36:18
SPEAKER_00: political tension.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: And so we need to be
36:22
SPEAKER_00: clear-eyed as we approach
36:24
SPEAKER_00: that this ultimate goal of science
36:25
SPEAKER_00: diplomacy being that vehicle
36:28
SPEAKER_00: for betterment of
36:30
SPEAKER_00: society.
36:31
SPEAKER_03: I'd like to close with a
36:33
SPEAKER_03: question your book seems to be
36:35
SPEAKER_03: building two words throughout.
36:38
SPEAKER_03: If science diplomacy continues
36:40
SPEAKER_03: drifting towards these
36:43
SPEAKER_03: themes of power,
36:44
SPEAKER_03: security, and maybe even
36:46
SPEAKER_03: competition, what do you
36:48
SPEAKER_03: argue is
36:50
SPEAKER_03: one function of it that
36:52
SPEAKER_03: we can't afford to lose?
36:55
SPEAKER_00: There's many things we can't afford
36:57
SPEAKER_00: to lose.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: When you pose this question, I'm
37:00
SPEAKER_00: sort of reminded of the
37:02
SPEAKER_00: book of Oppenheimer's biography,
37:05
SPEAKER_00: which in many ways sort of also
37:07
SPEAKER_00: informed my thinking about science
37:09
SPEAKER_00: diplomacy and historical
37:10
SPEAKER_00: perspective.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: This is ultimately a longstanding
37:14
SPEAKER_00: debate whether scientific
37:17
SPEAKER_00: cooperation is sort of the
37:19
SPEAKER_00: glue that keeps the world
37:21
SPEAKER_01: together.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: And even back in the day when
37:25
SPEAKER_00: nuclear weapons and nuclear energy
37:26
SPEAKER_00: were being developed,
37:28
SPEAKER_00: and people like Oppenheimer, for
37:30
SPEAKER_00: instance, were very much interested
37:32
SPEAKER_00: to bring Soviet
37:34
SPEAKER_00: scientists into the fold.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: So we always had these debates about
37:40
SPEAKER_00: sort of open science versus closed
37:42
SPEAKER_00: systems.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: I think essentially
37:45
SPEAKER_00: that is the tension that
37:47
SPEAKER_00: exists.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: But I would always hope that we will
37:50
SPEAKER_00: find ways of keeping that
37:52
SPEAKER_00: cooperative stance of science
37:53
SPEAKER_00: diplomacy front and center.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: Because again, I believe that
37:58
SPEAKER_00: science has been the engine of
38:02
SPEAKER_00: our realities and of
38:03
SPEAKER_00: our existence and future.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: And it will become even more
38:07
SPEAKER_00: important as we're contending
38:09
SPEAKER_00: with these trans-territorial
38:11
SPEAKER_00: issues that we've already discussed
38:13
SPEAKER_00: from climate change to
38:15
SPEAKER_00: pandemics and the like.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: So we will essentially need
38:18
SPEAKER_00: more cooperation, not less.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: And so that would be my hope not to
38:22
SPEAKER_00: lose sight of that.
38:23
SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you so much for being
38:25
SPEAKER_03: here.
38:26
SPEAKER_03: The Palgrave Handbook of Science
38:28
SPEAKER_03: Diplomacy is out now.
38:29
SPEAKER_03: Links to the book and
38:32
SPEAKER_03: to Jan's work at DWIH
38:33
SPEAKER_03: New York will be available
38:36
SPEAKER_03: on The Science Diplomat.
38:37
SPEAKER_03: This is The Science Diplomat signing
38:39
SPEAKER_03: off.
38:40
SPEAKER_03: Thank you again for joining us.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.