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"Fine, we’ll talk about Joe Rogan.” · Pod Save America

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: And filling in for Tommy today, we are lucky to
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: have with us in studio the host of NPR's It's
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Been a Minute, Sam Sanders. Welcome back to the show.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: It's great to be here.
• 0:30
  Speaker 4: Always great to be here.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: It's great to have you.
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: I have fun here.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: We have fun having you. On today's show, the Republican
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Party passes an official resolution stating that the violent insurrection
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: on January 6th that left multiple people dead and injured was, quote,
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: legitimate political discourse. Mike Pence says Donald Trump is wrong
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: about his ability to overturn the election. And we dive
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: into raging media controversies over Joe Rogan, Jeff Zucker, and
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: John Lovett's interview with Jen Psaki. Maybe the greatest controversy
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: of all. Yeah.
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: No, it's maybe the greatest controversy of all. One thing,
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: it's been a weekend of podcast apologies. And I just
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: want to add one, which is I referred to Mark
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: Short as Mike Short, and it led to a pretty
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: stupid joke on Love It or Leave It. I would
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: say that given that other podcast hosts have apologized for
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: saying the N-word dozens of times, I don't think it
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: really is that big a deal, but I did want
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: to issue that apology.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Before we get started, some great news. Dan Pfeiffer, one
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: of America's biggest YouTube stars, is back with another season
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: of Political Experts React. In the newest episode, Dan is
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: joined by The Lincoln Project's Stuart Stevens to break down
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: Republican midterm political ads from candidates like Dr. Oz and
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: the MAGA mom to Mallory Staples. To watch, head to
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: Crooked Media's YouTube channel. Also, if you haven't heard, Pod
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: Save America and Love It or Leave It have just
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: announced a ton of live shows this spring and summer.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: You bet. Heading back on the road.
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: Yep, and we're live every Thursday in LA again at
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: Dynasty Typewriter.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't even know that.
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: And those are fun live shows.
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: Those are really fun live shows. Cannot wait. We're going
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: to leave my backyard soon enough.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: You're going to want to go to crooked.com slash events
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: to get your tickets for all this stuff.
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: All this stuff.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Pod Save America, Love It or Leave It, the Dynasty
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Typewriter shows, all of them. All right, let's get to it.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: I have to admit, when I first saw the New
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: York Times headline, GOP declares January 6th attack legitimate political discourse,
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: I thought there might be some context missing or a
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: headline writer got a little out of control. But here's
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: what the Republican National Committee's formal censure of Representatives Liz
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Cheney and Adam Kinzinger actually says. It says that the
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: two Republicans, quote, are participating in a Democrat-led persecution of
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: ordinary citizens engaged in legitimate political discourse, and thus, quote,
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: the Republican National Committee shall immediately cease any and all
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: support of them as members of the Republican Party. Sam,
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: what was your initial reaction to the story? And, like,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: why did the RNC do this? Why do you think
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: they did this?
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: Why is anyone still doing this censure business? It doesn't
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: do anything. It doesn't mean anything.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: I hereby declare this is a document.
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: I'm going to censure you right now.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: You're censured, John. Oh, my God. I think.
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: So first reaction was like, oh, yeah, of course. But
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: second reaction was when you read the piece, what was
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: really interesting about the article is the meeting itself felt
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: really bipolar. So the Times said at first in this meeting,
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: this was a GOP winter meeting, all these party leaders
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: came in and condemned the attack. They condemned the attack
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: and the insurrection and Trump's conduct. Then the Times story
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: says over the course of the meeting, everything shifted and
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: they went to downplaying it and then denying it and
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: then this censure thing. And so for me, the takeaway
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: is like right now in the GOP, if you put
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: 100 Republicans in a room, any room, doesn't matter how
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: they walked in. We know how they walk out. There
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: is a small and loud minority in this party that
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: is in charge of the party no matter what and
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: like at no matter what level. And I think it
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: really boils down to just the perverse incentives of national
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: politics right now. All these House members, all these senators,
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: they don't want to get primaried. And that is more
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: important to them. than a general because these seats are
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: so predictable in so many cases. They're most worried about
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: an even further right primary. And if that is the case,
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: then they'll always do this, right?
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: So you put them in a room and the extremism
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: just like spreads like Omicron. It's just, whether they walk
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: in like that or not, that's how they walk out.
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: It's the same trajectory they've taken in the past year
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: since the attack, right? Like the first week when it
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: was fresh in everybody's mind, it was a violent insurrection.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: It was wrong.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: Everybody was Every Fox News host was texting Don Jr.
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: to try to get his dad to stop. And then
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: over time, they kind of get on the party line
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: that actually was just a small group of people, even
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: though the Department of Justice estimates, and I didn't realize
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: how many, 2,000 to 2,500 people went through the Capitol.
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: Wait, they were in there?
• 4:53
  Speaker 3: That is, it's not.
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: Let me tell you, and I know this doesn't need
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: to be said anymore, but let it be 2,500 black
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: people up in the Capitol breaking in.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: No.
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: Let it be.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: And just one small note on what they're excusing as
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: legitimate political discourse is, A lot of people peed in there.
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: Wait, I didn't know that.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they peed.
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: I knew they were taking stuff.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: There's pee.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: So I just, they're on the record there too.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: All right. I mean, I just look. So Ronna, our
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: friend Ronna Romney McDaniel, she issued a cleanup statement that
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: called the January 6th investigation a Democrat led persecution of
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: ordinary citizens who engaged in legitimate political discourse that had
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: nothing to do with violence at the Capitol. Here's the thing.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: As you pointed out, Sam, many hours of negotiation went
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: into this censure. They talked about it a lot. They
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: poured over the language. No one thought that maybe this
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: could be construed as endorsing violence. They really are going
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: to try to get us to believe that that's not
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: what we meant.
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, but they're trying to do two things
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: at once. They're trying to seem like a palatable party
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: for typical D.C. discourse. And they're also still trying to
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: wink and nod to potential primary voters who are insurrectionist sympathizers.
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: That's hard to do.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like, it's just like it. I think, look,
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: it's not like the question facing them was, should we?
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: embrace Donald Trump's belief that the election was stolen or not, right?
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: And we want to wink to all the people in
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: the party, the majority of people in the party who
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: believe that it was stolen. This was, the FBI called
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: January 6th an act of domestic terrorism, right? Dozens and
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: dozens of people were injured, police officers, they had brain damage,
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: they had, you know, all kinds of horrible injuries. Five
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: people died as a result of this. And you can't
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: just say that that was not legitimate political discourse and
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: make that clear?
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: I just don't get why they said anything.
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: Well, here's why they said it.
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: They could have avoided this whole plot line.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: That's right. You start from what Cheney and Kinzinger are
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: doing is making them mad. It is making them mad
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: that they are doing this, that they are participating in this,
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: and those feelings must be valid in some way. They
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: must be validated in some way. They must be explained,
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: and they can't be explained for what they are Which is,
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: these are two people showing a kind of modicum of integrity.
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: It makes us all exposed as the dirty cops we are.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: And we dirty cops don't like having these kind of
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: less dirty cops rubbing it in our faces. And so
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: they kind of need to get together and come up
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: with some rationale for why what these Republicans are doing
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: on the committee isn't just wrong because they don't like
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: the politics of it, but wrong for some other reason.
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: So they work really hard to come up with an explanation.
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: even the corrected version is still a fucking lie.
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: It's all a lie.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: Like there are lots of Republicans protesting all across the country.
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: They're protesting against mass. They're protesting against all kinds of things.
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: There's only one that there's a fucking committee looking at.
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: It's the one where several thousand people broke into the
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: Capitol and took things from Nancy Pelosi's desk. And oh,
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: by the way, a bunch of people got hurt and died.
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: So of course, anything they come up with is a
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: fucking lie. I think they just got a little bit
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: focused on To your point, the insurrection was bad, but
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: we fucking hate these two. I think a lot of
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: the conversation was on the but we hate these two
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: and not enough on the insurrection was bad.
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: How strong is the national party like the GOP actually
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: in moments like this? This whole statement seems very reactionary.
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: Trump has taken so much power away from a national
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: party infrastructure anyway. Like, does the GOP matter less now,
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: the national GOP, less now than it ever did before?
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look, I think national both national parties and
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: their national party communities people their critics always think they
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: have more power than they do i think the same
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: is true oh yeah there are no back rooms people
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: are always arguing about the dnc.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: Oh the dnc is getting exactly what they want it
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: there's there's no dnc those conventions.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah they're not doing any things neither is the rnc
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: it is the base of the party and by the
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: base of the party i mean sort of like the
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: right-wing media folks who were leading the rest of the
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: party around. But you're right, Lovett. They were so pissed
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: it was Cheney and Adam Kinzinger they had to say something.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: But also, the idea that the January 6th committee is
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: somehow persecuting people who were just peaceful protesters who never
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: entered the Capitol, who were just outside at the Stop
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: the Steal rally, they're not. People forget. They're not dealing
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: with those people at all.
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: Before they went inside the Capitol, there was a noose
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: out there. There was a Confederate flag out there. A
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: lot of them said if they got to Pence or Pelosi,
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: they would do stuff.
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: Hang Mike Pence.
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: It was a lynch. It could have been a lynch mob. Like,
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: not even exaggerating.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: But it just was an unsuccessful. Yes.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, yes. Like, I will.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: Look, it's amazing how quickly you forget the feeling of it. Like,
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: I wonder if Rana remembers the video of her fucking
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: uncle running down the hall to get out of the Capitol.
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: There's video of him fucking running and that livid look
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: on Mitt Romney's face sitting in the sitting in the
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: Senate chamber while one of the insurrectionists seven decided to
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: give some speech defending their indefensible position, the kind of
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: rage in his eyes like a few people on that
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: side haven't lost that. Does that make them great?
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: No.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: But it makes them better than the fucking scumbags getting
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: together at this meeting.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: Well, you know who remembered the video of Mitt Romney
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: running is Mitt Romney. Because he tweeted, shame falls on
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: a party that would censure persons of conscience. Apparently, he
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: also said that he exchanged some texts with Ronna over this,
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: though he didn't tell us.
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: What they were.
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: Wait, I got three dots from Uncle Mitt.
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, fuck.
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: What emoji does he send to her? What emoji? Upside
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: down smiley.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: He just sent her the thumbs down. He did the
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: thumbs down reaction emoji on his statement. Other Republicans who
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: condemned the censure included Louisiana Senator Bill Cassidy, Maryland Governor
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: Larry Hogan, Chris Christie, Lisa Murkowski. I saw Susan Collins today.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: Todd Young, a couple of them. I didn't see too many.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: How important do you think it is to get every
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: elected Republican on record about this?
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: Most people don't know about this story.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:14
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: I think people who are really plugged in are following
• 11:17
  Speaker 4: what the GOP at the national level is saying. I
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: think folks are going to plug into the midterms a
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: few months before the midterms, and they're going to be
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: probably not going back to what happened this week with
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: the statement.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: Right. I am.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: So very unusual for me to disconnect from the news
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: at all. I was at a wedding all since Thursday. Yeah.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: And I like the few times I just scrolled through
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: Twitter to see what was going on. I was like,
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: legitimate political discourse. What's going on? And it really wasn't
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: until yesterday I dug into it. I'm like, no, this
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: really happened. So, yeah, I was one of those people.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: And I'm an avid news consumer. Yeah. I mean, love it.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: The question is like we have debated. to what extent
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: Democrats should make January 6th an issue in the midterms
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: and beyond. Like, how, if at all, should the RNC
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: resolution change the parties thinking about this, knowing that, you know,
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: as Sam just said, probably a lot of people don't
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: know the story and people are going to tune in,
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: you know, a couple months before November.
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, here's my... I really have been stuck on the
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: fact that the UK has been trapped in a kind
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: of government-shaking scandal over a party from over a year ago.
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: Several parties.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: Several parties. Because in part because of the sort of
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: attention it's gotten from the media, but also concentration on
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: it from people trying to make it a story. One
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: lesson I would take from what's happening right now is
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: I think like sometimes we've debated on this podcast, right? Like, well,
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: is this the best thing?
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: Forget.
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: We obviously think it's the right thing to do. to
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: point out the kind of incredibly dangerous authoritarian tendencies of
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: the Republican Party. But when we're at our most mercenary,
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: we ask, is this the right way to make sure
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: we're in a position to win the election? I would
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: say that it's because we have the January 6th committee
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: that it has stirred up enough noise and news and
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: interest and coverage that it has kind of caused these
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: kind of knock-on effects of Trump issuing these statements of
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: stories now about document retention of Chris Christie and Pence
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: giving these competing speeches of a censure resolution coming out
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: of the RNC. And all of a sudden, this story
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: now is kind of, it's self-perpetuating, at least for a
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: few days, because it's Republicans talking to each other about
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: this incredibly important divide inside the Republican Party, which is,
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: should America be a democracy, yes or no? So my
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: lesson is only that it does seem as though concerted
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: attention from Democrats on this issue has stirred something up
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: that is even bigger than what the committee could have
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: done on its own.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: I agree.
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: But I also think that the kind of slow burn
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: of a story that you get from this insurrection panel
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: committee is not the kind of story that national news
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: media knows how to do well with or that Democrats
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: know how to do well with. Like it's a slow
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: trickle of these really damning details about what happened that
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: day and before. That all together make a pretty strong argument.
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: But it's not being delivered in one simple package on
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: a given day. And it's like, will the Democratic Party
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: be able to keep tying all of these dots together
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: over time?
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: To say in October– Look at all this.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: Democrats aren't good at not tying.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: But I think tying all the dots together is a challenge.
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: And saying tying all the dots together, mixed metaphor or whatever. Sorry,
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: but you get it.
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't even think about that. But anyway, tying
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: it all together is a challenge. But I would say this. Obviously,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: we've seen in polls. You can even hear it in
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: focus groups that have been done. People are not. January
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: 6th is not top of mind for a lot of voters.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: And so it's hard to make it a big deal.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: It's hard to make anything a big deal that happened
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: in the past and not in the future. I also
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: think it's hard to make a big deal something that
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: doesn't directly affect people's lives, right? Like even a conversation
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: about democratic institutions and what the Republic, all this kind
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: of stuff, it's tough to make real to people. I
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: think what's different here is an endorsement of violence. Like
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: an endorsement of violence is simple to understand. It also
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: has a direct effect on people's lives. Like, do you
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: want a party in control? that is endorsing political violence
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: that could come to your town, that could come to you, right? Like,
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: is that really what you want? I mean, Data for
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: Progress polled four swing districts and found that voters overwhelmingly
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: disapproved of what happened at the Capitol, obviously. But in
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: no swing district did more than 15% of likely voters
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: approve of the insurrection, and all of the districts, at
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: least 80%, disapproved. Like, it is.
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: Sorry, when you ask that kind of question in a poll,
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: you're also led to answer the right answer.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: You're like, yeah... Although in the same poll, they'll say
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: things like, yeah, the election was stolen, right? Or yeah,
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: Trump's big lie was right. Like the one that got
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: the most disapproval was obviously violence. And you're right. People
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: can say different things about that. But I do think
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Democrats making the point based on this, and again, you
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: have to keep saying this over and over and over again,
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: that this party has now endorsed political violence. And this part,
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: all the mayhem that you've seen in January 6th, don't
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: just leave it in the past. It's actually about what
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: could happen if they return to power or if they
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: don't get their way. And that's a big problem. That's
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: why you want to keep.
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: It's harder to do that when Trump is not there.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: It is harder to do that. Well, that's why... But that's...
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Going back to the original question I had asked, like,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: I do think that's why every single Republican, elected Republican
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: and Republican running for office in 2022 should be made
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: to answer that question. They should be made to answer
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: their question at campaign events, at debates, wherever. And that's
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: why you're seeing so many, I think, today... already disavow it.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: And not just the usual suspects, but a lot of like,
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: because they know that that's.
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: Not good politics.
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: It's not good politics.
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: It's horrific, but it's also not good politics.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: And they want it behind them, right? They don't want
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: to be, they don't want to be dealing with this indefinitely.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: That's right. One prominent Republican who made some headlines about
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: January 6th over the weekend was former Vice President Mike Pence,
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: who said for the first time that Donald Trump is wrong,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: that Pence had the legal authority to overturn the election
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: and that the Republican Party should accept the outcome and
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: move on. Though he still wouldn't say that Trump lost
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: or he still wouldn't reject the big lie. This unsurprisingly
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: enraged Trump, who called Pence, quote, an automatic conveyor belt
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: for the old crow Mitch McConnell. Old crow.
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: I'm sorry.
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: Old crow is so weird. It just never stops being weird.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: It doesn't work.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: He's stuck with it.
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: First of all, the triangulating on fascism is amazing. There's
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: a third way.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Amazing.
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: But also, Trump's statement really muted, actually. Like really soft.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: I hadn't noticed that at first just because I was
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: so focused on the conveyor belt for the old crow
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: that I hadn't realized that, yeah.
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: It's a visual right there. I'm imagining crow mitt.
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: It's not personal. It's not, he doesn't once again urge
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: his followers to kill Mike Pence, which had previously been
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: one of his go-tos. So pretty muted. And obviously it's because,
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: you know, Trump has a, you know, some loyalty and
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: a trick. No, he's really worried that Mike Pence is
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: a person out there with.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: A story to tell.
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, the story was that he probably got killed. Right? Like,
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: they would have killed him. He knew that.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: He knew that.
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: I just don't understand.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: No, I think he knows it's a story to tell and,
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: back to what we were just saying, he knows deep
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: down that it is bad politics.
• 18:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: Does he want to run for president again at some point?
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: Like, is that what he's trying to figure out?
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: A lot of the reporting says that he does. I can't,
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I mean... This was a speech.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: I read... This speech... was read like someone saying, and
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: therefore I'm not running for president. I'm going to tell
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: the truth in this very specific and direct way.
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: Oh, really?
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: You thought that's... Who knows? That's interesting.
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: Look, I just see all the rest of them. Ron
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: DeSantis is a smart guy. Marco Rubio thinks he's a
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: smart guy. These are both people choosing to avoid touching this,
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: to avoid saying emphatically one way or the other because
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: they want to leave their options open. Mike Pence has
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: done the exact same thing for six years now. And
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: this is the first time he chooses to be this
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: emphatic about something so central to Donald Trump's view of
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: 2020 and 2024. Why is he even making speeches then?
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: It went further than he needs to go.
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: If I were Mike Pence and my colleague almost got
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: me killed, day after, I'm out. meanest, most withering statement,
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: and then I'll never speak to you about you ever again.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: I'm done. If you're going to never run for president again,
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: go all the way. Don't triangulate fascism if you're going
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: to run for president again. I would say they tried
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: to kill me.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: They did not. Goodbye to you all.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: I just don't, in his mind, he still thinks there's
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: like some space to carve out between Liz Cheney and
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump, which is not, I don't think that's space.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: I mean, he's never been very good at politics. He
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: was vice president because he was about to lose the
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: Indiana governor's race. So he like jumped onto this thing
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: because he thought losing his vice president would be better
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: than losing at the top of the ticket. And lo
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: and behold, he almost got four years later, he's almost
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: hung at the Capitol. Life's funny.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: So a group of bipartisan lawmakers is still working on
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: a bill to reform the Electoral Count Act in an
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: effort to prevent future attempted coups. And over the weekend,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: Joe Manchin and Lisa Murkowski did a joint interview where
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: Manchin said the bill would, quote, absolutely pass. What do
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: we know about what specific changes they're looking to make?
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, the first thing we know is be careful
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: what you believe from Joe Manchin.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: For that. But for starters, the bill would clarify that
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: the vice president has no power to reject the state's electors.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Wow. Great. Yeah.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: Low baseline.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: Huge step forward. Yeah.
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: And the measure would also ensure that state houses cannot
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: appoint electors after Election Day in an attempt to change
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: the results. There's some other stuff. And I'm reading from
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: The Times now and CNN. There'd be a timeline for
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: states to complete challenges to results of elections, a clear
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: method to certify the results. even a format for transporting
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: the Electoral College certifications to Capitol Hill and like stage
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: directions on how the day of the actual thing should go. So,
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: I mean, all of it seems pretty common sense. And
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: I guess it could pass. But when I read it
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: all together, I'm like, that's a low baseline. And like,
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: how dare anyone up there pat themselves on the back
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: for passing that?
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well, I will say a lot of
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Republicans who sound like they may support it. like Marco
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Rubio was saying something like, well, if Kamala Harris is VP,
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: we don't want her to have the power to overturn
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: the election, right? So the whole like clarifying the VP's
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: role thing does seem like the lowest, lowest common denominator
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: that they can all agree on. If they just do that,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: I'm like, eh. The thing you mentioned about ensuring that
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: state legislatures Can't screw with it afterwards. Can't appoint electors
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: after Election Day. I think that's big.
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: And I think it might not pass.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Well, that was going to say. So the things you
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: just mentioned, Sam, that were from that time story, that
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: was in the draft legislative text from Dick Durbin and
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Amy Klobuchar and Angus King. And they're in like their
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: own separate group. And then there's like the Murkowski, Manchin,
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Republican group. Now, it does say that those groups have
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: started talking. I think if that if the Klobuchar, King,
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: that bill. if all that stuff gets into the overall
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: bill and that passes, I think that's, look, it's not
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: nearly as good as voting rights passing, but that's going
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: to do a lot to protect against the next coup.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: It really is.
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: The fact that we have to say that, protect against
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: the next coup.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: We do need to protect against it.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: We're through the looking glass.
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: But we need to do that. We need to do that.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: And we have Democrats for a year combined vote suppression
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: with overturning of elections in a way that I think
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: was really harmful. We completely lost on the ability to
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: pass something on voting rights. That is not happening now.
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: But we have this one chance to possibly pass something
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: to like shore up against potential against a future Trump run. Like,
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: of course, we should take it. It does nothing to
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: hurt us. It can only help clarify. I mean, what
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: what what Manchin said is right. You know, Trump issued
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: this statement the other day saying, well, if they need
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: to pass something. to change the rules, it means that
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: my statement was correct, right? Like, if you're changing the
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: rules to stop Mike Pence from overturning the election, sure
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: sounds like he could, which is why they're talking about
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: it in terms of clarifying, what have you. All of this, though,
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: in the end, is playing in, like, very kind of, like,
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: first-order constitutional questions, which will ultimately land before a Supreme Court. Regardless,
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: none of this ultimately will stop Republicans from breaking the rules,
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: pretending the Constitution says whatever they want, to put whoever
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: they want in power. So the most important protection is
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: winning some fucking elections. But barring that, it would be
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: great to have some kind of a break from what
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: happened in 2020, some kind of a procedure or set
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: of rules that tells Republicans they don't have the power
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: to overturn the election if they so choose. And part
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: of the reason I think it's possible that it's going
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: to pass is a lot of these Republicans don't want
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: to think they have that power. They would like to
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: not feel the pressure from the base to overturn these elections.
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: So whatever they can do, do it.
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: It's the Kamala stay home bill. Kamala, don't show up
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: that day. No gavel for you.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Look, I think any bill that's worth passing has to
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: do something about the real danger, which is that the
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: state legislatures, mostly these Republican state legislatures, decide to just
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: appoint the red slate of electors. Like, if it can
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: handle that, I think it's definitely worth passing. It might
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: not handle that. If it doesn't handle that, and if
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: it's just like.
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: It's just the Kamala stay at home bill.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: If it's just the Kamala stay at home bill, no
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: thank you.
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: Okay. When we come back, we will talk about the
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: various raging media controversies. Sure.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: There have been quite a few media stories dominating the news,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: which we're going to talk about since we have a
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: real live journalist with us today.
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: Allegedly.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're certainly not. So let's start with the
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: controversy over Joe Rogan, who hosts a podcast that averages
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: nearly 11 million listeners per episode. which led Spotify to
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: pay $ 100 million for the exclusive rights to host the
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: show on its platform.
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: Is that V1 or V2?
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Oh man, that's an inside joke.
• 25:28
  Speaker 6: All right.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: A few weeks ago, 270 health professionals signed a letter
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: asking Spotify to moderate misinformation on its platform, specifically related
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: to Rogan's stance on COVID vaccines. He's discouraged young people
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: from getting vaccinated, incorrectly claimed that vaccines are gene therapy,
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: and hosted hardcore anti-vaxxers, who spread so many lies they've
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: been kicked off Twitter. Spotify said it would include a, quote,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: content advisory on Rogan's episodes about COVID, and Rogan said
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: he would try harder to interview guests with different opinions. Then,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: over the weekend, Spotify confirmed that it had removed about
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: 70 episodes of the Joe Rogan experience, not because of
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: COVID misinformation, but because the singer India Arie shared a
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: supercut of all the times Rogan has used the N-word
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: on his show. Rogan apologized. and Spotify said that it
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: would invest $ 100 million towards music and audio from historically
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: marginalized groups.
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: I won't believe that. I just won't believe that.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: What a classic corporate thing.
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: Also, come find me.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Though their CEO also said, quote, I do not believe
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: that silencing Joe is the answer. Canceling voices is a
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: slippery slope. Meanwhile, artists Neil Young and Joni Mitchell have
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: pulled their music from Spotify, while podcasters Brene Brown and
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Roxane Gay have stopped putting their shows on the platform.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: What a mess. Let's start with Spotify. They claim to
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: be just a platform, not a publisher with editorial control.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: What's their responsibility here? Love it.
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: Well, look, here's the thing. Also, by the way, one
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: thing they have said in all their statements is that
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: Joe Rogan decided to take down.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: The episodes, right?
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: They're very careful. They're not in charge of what's on
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: Joe Rogan's feed there. Look, Spotify paid Joe Rogan $ 100
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: million to silence him on Apple. to silence him on Google,
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: to silence him in every single place they could, except
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: for one.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: So there's really just one left for them to do
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: to get the final value out of their hundred million.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: But all that aside, this idea like, oh, we're not
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: a publisher. Everybody wants to have a party. Nobody wants
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: to clean up. You paid somebody a lot of money
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: to make content for you. They are doing it. I
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: think part of the reason they're a little bit fucked
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: is they can't claim like, oh, we're not going to
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: pay him this. We had no idea he was saying
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: the N-word all the time because these were just living
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: in his feed that they were fully available to everybody
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: for years. The other thing I will say to defend
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: Joe Rogan is it's a different time. You know, look, 2014,
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: he was just a young man in his mid-40s. People
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: didn't know then, all right? A lot has changed.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Sam, what do you think?
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: I think my first thought was Indiaree. Good to hear
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: from her. Hope she's doing well. Love that album. Really did. Secondly,
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: I think that like a lot of this argument we
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: tried to have before and then we just didn't have it.
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: A few years ago there was a whole is Facebook
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: a publisher or a platform conversation. And eventually we just
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: moved on and Facebook is still crazy. And Facebook is
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: still full of conspiracy theory. And I think that like
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: if Spotify had any– business sense about all of this.
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: They would understand that the life cycle of internet outrage
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: is extremely short. And if you just shut up, we'll
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: move on to something else. They started talking. Then they
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: began to pull episodes down. They're keeping this story alive.
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: They're keeping the story alive. And I don't know why
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: they're doing that. I also feel like there's a larger
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: conversation to have besides should Spotify have these things up
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: or not. Don't expect goodness from corporations or corporations. And
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: unless the government makes them be better, they won't be better.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Period.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: The larger conversation is why does a guy like Joe
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: Rogan have this big of a contract and this many
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: listeners for that show? Yeah. It's not a good show.
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: It's not scientifically informed. It's not even really factual. And
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: the larger issue here is that like so many Americans
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: increasingly don't trust actual news outlets.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 29:24
  Speaker 4: They don't trust national news outlets, and they don't think
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: that we, because I'm one of them, are being truthful
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: with them. The latest numbers from Pew Research Center show
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: that nationwide, only 58% of US adults trust national news media.
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: And when you just go to Republicans, it's like 35
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: or 30% trust. And so in that context, of course.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: I think those are even higher than the ones.
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: Probably.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Gallup had it even worse. It's really bad.
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: But in that context, of course a Joe Rogan succeeds.
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: And so we can have a conversation about what kind
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: of company Spotify is, but there's a larger information conversation
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: to have about who Americans trust and who they don't
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: and who fills the gap. And I think instead of
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: national news organizations like mine and others having conversations about
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: how we rebuild... build trust, we gotta talk about the
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: saga of Jeff Zucker, you know?
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: Which we are gonna get.
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and so like, I am not mad at Spotify
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: because why would it benefit me to be mad at
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: a company? It's a company. It's a company.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean like, I think that Spotify is bullshit here, right? Like, they, look,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: the reason they're trying to get away with this is
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: that they are both a platform and a publisher, right?
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: So the way that Spotify works is there are some
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: podcasts that are just on Spotify because it's like a platform.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Our podcast is one of them, your podcast is one
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: of them, right? And then, Spotify goes out and picks
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: and chooses which podcast they want to make exclusive bids
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: for and pay a lot of money to. And that's
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: what they did with Joe Rogan, like you said, Lovett.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: They decided to make sure he couldn't be heard on
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: any other platform but theirs. That's not the case with
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: most podcasts, right? So of course they have responsibility for this, right?
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: But beyond that, I think the question you raised, Sam,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: is the right one, which is like, what should be
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: done about Joe Rogan? And specifically, what should be done
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: about the misinformation and disinformation that is coming from the
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: joe rogan podcast because if you if spotify kicked joe
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: rogan off tomorrow joe rogan would go on any number
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: of other platforms.
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: That's the tip of the iceberg have you seen youtube.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Exactly rumble a canadian version of youtube that's that's now
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: aligned with trump offered rogan a hundred million dollars just
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: today to come onto their platform right he'd go on
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: youtube he'd go on play so like The misinformation and
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: disinformation does not stop if Spotify kicks Joe Rogan off
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: the platform, which is why I actually think that when
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: it was just the COVID disinformation that was the story,
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Rogan said, oh, well, I want to have different voices,
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: differing voices on that disagree with me.
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: And I got an answer for that.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Right, but I actually think that that's the best... Look,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: is that a surefire way? Is that going to work?
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: I have no fucking idea. But we have to do
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: something to expose some of the people who are listening
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: to that podcast to... competing forms of information.
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: I'm going to push back on that.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: Because I think that it's really easy for someone like
• 32:17
  Speaker 4: Joe Rogan to do the whole, I didn't know. I'm
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: just a dumb comedian. I don't pre-interview. I don't fact check.
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: I just talk. And instead of saying, I'll do a
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: better job about fact checking and pre-interviewing and booking and
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: being thoughtful about these conversations, or maybe even cutting out
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: the bad parts in post before you post it, Instead
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: of saying any of those things, he says, well, I'll
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: just have some other voices. That is so lazy. Oh,
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: I agree with that. It is so lazy.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: I agree with that.
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: And it's so disrespectful to people who are actually trying
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: to credibly inform the public.
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: But he's not claimed to be that.
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: No, but when you have a platform that big, you
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: have some of that. Sure, no, of course. And I
• 32:57
  Speaker 4: think that only a certain kind of man can get
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: away with that foolishness. Y'all put a show together. I'll
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: put a show together. We are in pre-production. We are fact-checking.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: We are editing script. Before it runs, we're going to
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: listen to it two or three times just before we
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: put it up. And, like, you do that because, like,
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: you know that when people are listening to you, you
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: have a responsibility. And so it doesn't matter if Joe
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: Rogan says he's a comedian or this or that. At
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: that point, when you're getting that much money and talking
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: to that many people, just do better. Sorry, not to
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: fuss at y'all about this, but it just burns me up.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: It burns me up.
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: I agree with that 100%.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: But, like, like, Joe Rogan is a lazy, irresponsible asshole.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Of course. He exists, and he's got 11 million listeners.
• 33:39
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: And I have encountered a lot of people who come
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: up to us and say, oh, I listen to Pod
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: Save America. I listen to Joe Rogan. Sometimes I believe
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: what you guys say. Sometimes he has other points. Sometimes
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: I listen to Ben Shapiro. I hate Donald Trump. I
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: hate the Republican Party. I don't like the Democrats either.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: There is a group of people like this that I
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: do think we have to contest and that we have
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: to try to persuade. Fuck Joe Rogan. Forget about Joe Rogan.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: It's not about him. It's not about Spotify.
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: It is about who who is that misinformation and disinformation
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: reaching and how do we fight that? Is the answer just,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: you know, throwing good information on top of bad information?
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: Not necessarily. Right. But we have to figure out like
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: we are in a fight to persuade people. And I
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: don't know that we can count on. Joe Rogan acting responsible.
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: I don't think I'm going to fight to persuade people.
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: My fight is to inform people. And I think.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: You're right. Well, we have a difference. I'm fighting to
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: actually persuade people.
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: Go ahead.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: Sorry.
• 34:30
  Speaker 5: No, no.
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: Look, for good and for ill, Joe Rogan is not
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: producing a news show. You know, you point out these
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: studies that say X number of people don't trust the news.
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: That's absolutely true. The vast majority of people, by definition,
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: if you have 70% of people saying they mistrust mainstream news,
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: a lot of those people are distrusting something they are
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: not consuming. These are people answering a question about content
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: they are not imbibing, right? The biggest divide in this
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: country is not between people who, is really between people
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: who are engaged in following and paying attention to the
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: news and the tens of millions of people, the majority
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: of the country, who are not. Joe Rogan has a
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: big audience of people that are probably more in that category.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: So all I'm getting, all I'm saying is we, I
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: don't even know why, we're not even disagreeing.
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: I agree completely.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: But like what you're saying is I want Joe Rogan
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: to be held to the standards of the news.
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: No, I want them to do a little bit better.
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: Right, of course.
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: And I also want the news to do a better
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: job of appealing to more people.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: How do you think they do that?
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: I don't know. But I know that for a long time,
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: especially during the pandemic, it became hard to listen to
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: or watch or read most mainstream national news because the
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: spirit behind every headline and every story was like, aren't
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: you panicked? Aren't you worried? You're going to die. This
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: is bad. This is bad. This is bad. And there
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: are studies about the tone and tenor of national news
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: coverage Most of it at this point is anxiety-inducing and negative.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: And so that, I think, needs to be addressed. Are
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: we making a product that is informative and not depressing?
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: Are we making a product that is informative that can
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: at least start to stand a little bit head-to-head with
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: all of the entertainment and disinformation swill that exists?
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, you've touched on something, which is a lot
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: of reporters will say, Well, the reason that there's distrust
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: in media is for purely partisan reasons. So, you know,
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Republicans don't trust media because they think it's liberal. And,
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: you know, Democrats will have complaints about media because they
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: think it's, you know, not tough enough on Republicans.
• 36:27
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: And I think, you know, and there's probably needs more
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: study on this. But I think the point you just made,
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: which is that so much of the media is.
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: Bringing you down.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: It feeds you anxiety. It makes you nervous. And it's
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: treating politics like a game and a sport and it's
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: making everything afraid and stuff like that. That gets to
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: the distrust that a lot of people feel as well.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: And people like Joe Rogan are saying.
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: I'm not going to make you nervous.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to make you nervous. Trust me. And
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: I don't have all the answers and this guy came
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: on my show and he's saying crazy shit. Maybe he's wrong.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: Maybe he's right. Who knows?
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: This is also not a lot of what Joe Rogan
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: is doing on that show isn't also that Like, yes,
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: we are now discussing the tons of racism that's been
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: on that show. We're talking about the misinformation that's on
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: that show. But there's always been an audience for a
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: certain kind of like white male, very masculine, bro-y conversation
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: around the table in which some days it's somebody like Fauci.
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: Some days it's a famous comedian. Some days it's a
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: UFO expert. There's been like Howard Stern did that. There's
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: lots of shows that have done that. And I do wish,
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: I think that the conversation like, how do we get
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: more people to pay attention to the news?
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: Fine.
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: There is millions and millions of guys out there that
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: find that kind of conversation appealing. And like the answer
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: to telling them on mass, like you're wrong to like
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: what you're liking. Like it's true. Like I think what
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: Rogan's doing is pretty gross, but like, I really am
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: much more interested in like, how do we peel some
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: of those people off? Like how do we make something
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: that reaches them that kind of touches that kind of
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: community that like conversation and, without it having to be
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: infested with the kind of toxic qualities that we see
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: in sort of the Rogan universe.
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: Or even some of the toxic qualities that we see
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: in mainstream news.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, sure.
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: If there is a way to make national news appeal
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: to more people and depress them less, I think we
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: should do that. I think there are studies after studies
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: about the way that all major newsrooms cover the pandemic.
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: It was unnecessarily negative. That's clear. there's a recent episode
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: of the Freakonomics podcast that spends a whole hour talking
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: about why is U.S. media so negative right now? And
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: these are real questions that have to be asked because
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: as long as the news feels like a chore and
• 38:42
  Speaker 4: it's making you sad, fewer people are going to listen
• 38:46
  Speaker 4: to it. And I think more people need to listen
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: to the news and not to Joe Rogan.
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: And I do think, too, part of this, some of
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: this comes down to what it means to respect speech.
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: And I think there's a kind of argument from their
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: side that's like, we respect the power of speech and
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: therefore we don't want to see any hindrances. We want
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: to say whatever we want, whenever we want, we want
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: to pay no consequences for saying something racist, want to
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: pay no consequences for spreading misinformation because the most important
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: thing is individuals having the power, whatever that power means
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: to them.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: Uh, to spread.
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: And what we're basically saying is like bad ideas have
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: incredible power, right? You have incredible responsibility that comes with
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: your ability to spread those bad ideas uh, in, in
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: far reaching ways. Like if you, it is a big
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: difference between telling somebody like there's a, I am, I
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: just sometimes imagine Joe Rogan, uh, having one of these
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: anti anti COVID, one of these, uh, anti vaccine guests on,
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: just imagine going from person to person to share that information,
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: like handing it out like a pamphlet. Like, have you
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: heard like, uh, it's killing teenagers. Have you, have you heard, uh, uh, uh,
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: natural immunity is stronger, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: And you imagine like telling this to people, telling 11
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: million people something completely false individually, I think gets at
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: just how hard, how bad it is to do it
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: on math.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Well, I also think that the controversies over these stories
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: play into the polarization. So like just preparing for this podcast,
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: I was like, I want to find out exactly what
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: the COVID misinformation was and disinherit that Joe Rogan was spreading.
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: And I'm Googling and stuff like that. And every, Joe Rogan, Spotify,
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: all you get is stories about the controversy. And I'm like,
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: it took me a while to find out what the
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: actual thing he said was. Because I'm like, so what
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: is that actually doing for the cause of making sure
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: more people trust the vaccines?
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: Which should be our goal. I feel the same way
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: about this whole conversation that I'm being pulled into over
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: what I think about Joe Rogan saying the N-word. Don't
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: ask me.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Stop.
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: Let's not. The larger issue is, is that never in
• 40:40
  Speaker 4: the history of media has anybody other than a white
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: guy like Joe Rogan got a deal as big as
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: Joe Rogan.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: And so the N-word is secondary to me. And I'm
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: also tired of these other comedians circling the wagons, acting
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: like Joe Rogan saying the N-word is like the last
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: frontier of free speech. We've got to let comedians tell
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: hard truths. That ain't a hard truth. That's a low-hanging fruit.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: Well, that's another thing, too, is that it also gets, again,
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: the controversy gets distilled to well, he said the N-word,
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: did he say it because he was talking about other
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: people saying what was the context? He also, he's made
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: comments about how black and white people have different genetics.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: He had a guest on who claimed that black people
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: have a gene that makes them predisposed to violence. Like,
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: it went beyond him just being like, oh, I'm saying
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: the word because someone else said it.
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: Also, at this point, if you tell me that any
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: white person said the N-word, I'd be like, oh, I
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: bet they do when we aren't around. I'm not surprised.
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: I just, I'm sorry. Like, I don't have any space
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: for surprise for that anymore. I don't have any space
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: for surprise for it.
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: It's also like, you know, I, horrible things with Jordan
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: Peterson about trans people and how they represent the, the
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: harbinger of the end of civilization. Uh, he said that
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: the N word dozens of time, it's, there is something
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: so like, it is not surprising to me that these
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: things are kind of, uh, uh, offenses that get you, uh,
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: is this okay? You know, like it's, if it was
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: 70 times, Joe Rogan talked about kikes controlling the media, right?
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: Like it'd be a very different conversation.
• 42:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: One other point I wanted to make on the misinformation
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: side of it. I mean, I also understand, given how
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: bad the coverage has been, the pull of finding some expert,
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: some guru, some person, some Sherpa to follow who can
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: break it all down. Because, I mean, like, you know,
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: you and I, I think, at the height of the pandemic,
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: became As close to scientists as we'll ever be in
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: our whole lives. And I remember vividly telling, I said
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: this to Ronan, almost verbatim. I was like, he sent
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: some story about some new information we were learning, I
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: believe about Delta. And he was like, look at this.
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: It looks like it's more dangerous in this way than
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: we thought. And I was like, you can't fucking trust that.
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: That is misinformation. He's like, it's Reuters. And I was like,
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: I'm telling you, you can't trust anything. You got to
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: read the fucking studies. Because I was like, at that point,
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: so I felt so kind of like manhandled and misled
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: by even the most anodyne and basic and straightforward news
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: coverage of COVID.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: I have a child who can't get vaccinated and I
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: pay more attention to COVID than almost anything and read
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: from experts who are like, would never be on Joe
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: Rogan's show, right? And the amount of conflicting information over
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: the last several months has... It will drive you crazy. Yeah. And,
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: you know, I follow this stuff. And the headline... I mean,
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: the experts are one thing. The headlines, like, millions more
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: children are dying. Should you be scared and not leave
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: the house? You know, it's just that kind of tone.
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: I'm still hurt over Fauci telling me for months to
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: not wear a mask than saying you better get one
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: real quick.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 43:39
  Speaker 4: I'm still reeling over that.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: And this is a person who is good faith, trying
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: to do his best, been an expert forever.
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: And so, like, you're right, love it. When people... hear
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: some Sherpa on a podcast that says they know it
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: all and they're like, well, I might as well believe
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: that person because all the other people are leading me
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: astray as well. Lack of trust in institutions is at
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: the core of this problem.
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: And it ain't about Joe Rogan saying the N-word.
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: We're just dancing around it.
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: Let me tell you, I was an undergrad when the
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: number one song for 12 weeks was Kanye West's Gold Digger.
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: All these white folks saying the N-word. It's not new
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: to me. It's not surprising to me and it's just
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: like distractionary.
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: The, uh, There's been a few moments where it was like,
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: that's it. I'm not reading anything else except Dr. Ashish
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: Jha's Twitter. That's it.
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: I'm done.
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: Just Dr. Jha and me. That's the only thing. Just
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: me and him in conversation.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: And then that point, I tweet some stuff, and everyone's
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: yelling at him about something. I'm like, oh, I'm sorry.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: He's just the dean of public health at Brown.
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: I'm still stuck on Joe Rogan said the N-word. The
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: sky is blue.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Come on.
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: But, okay, on that point, though, I do think also.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: Once the first round of this probably is going to
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: be a controversy came up months and months and months
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: and months ago, put three interns on listening to what's
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: in the fucking archive.
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: You can't pay those interns enough. Oh, my God.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Spotify really did a serious vet on that one.
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: What I'm worried about, or not worried about, just wondering about, like,
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: silent in this entire conversation is advertisers on Joe Rogan's podcast.
• 45:09
  Speaker 4: Usually when this stuff flares up in TV or cable news,
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: there's a push for the advertisers to pull ads from
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: Tucker Carlson or whoever, and eventually some do. From what
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: I understand, no advertisers have pulled their ads from Rogan's show,
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: and none of them have even really spoken about it.
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: What's up with that? I don't know.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: So, and I don't know this because I don't listen
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: to Rogan's podcast, but... Is part of the exclusive deal
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: with Spotify that you don't have to listen to ads?
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: It's just subscriber based?
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: He reads them.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: Oh, he still reads them.
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: So people will pay for Spotify to have Joe Rogan read.
• 45:43
  Speaker 4: And when you buy a Spotify Joe Rogan ad package,
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: they also, I think, make you buy in other Spotify shows.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is interesting.
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: I would just say, you know, look, there are. Podcasts
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: where you'll hear the N-word zero times, and there are
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: podcasts where you'll hear the N-word from one to a
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: million times. And I think you just think about which
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: ones you want to put the ads in.
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: I almost used the N-word once on my show, and
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: they were like, no. And I was like, you're right.
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: I don't even like this. It's really simple to have
• 46:09
  Speaker 4: a standard.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Obviously, we hope that media makes itself more responsible, but
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know if that can happen without Jeff Zucker.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: And we do need to talk about how he is
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: the one media titan who did get canceled last week.
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: He resigned after failing to report a consensual relationship with
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: one of his longtime colleagues, which is against CNN's internal
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: policies and came to light as a result.
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: And it's like, OK, I mean, I guess Wolf and
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: I never had the conversation, but I thought we were.
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: So this came to light. Judge Zucker's relationship came to
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: light as a result of the network's investigation into former
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: anchor Chris Cuomo, who was fired after using his sources
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: to help his brother, then Governor Andrew Cuomo, respond to
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: allegations of sexual misconduct. Talk about a butterfly effect.
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: Which I want to point out started because they were
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: worried Ronan Farrow might publish a story about Andrew Cuomo.
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: So a call from Ronan about a potential story led
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: Chris to try to track down who else might be talking.
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: We're doing ads for Ronan now?
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm just saying. It leads all the way. I'm
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: just saying.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: Does Ronan not have enough for you?
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: No, I just think it's amazing that he's just sitting
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: on the couch playing video games and just canceling people
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: left and right.
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: I don't think Zucker's canceled. I think he'll end up
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: on Puck.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: News or whatever it is.
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: Oh, he's going to be fine.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: He's going to be fine. I don't know if.
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: I couldn't give a fuck.
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: Zucker will be fine. I don't know if CNN's, you know,
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: anchors or employees will be. They spent the days following
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: Zucker's departure offering impassioned tributes to their former boss. Here's
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: a clip.
• 47:45
  Speaker 5: Inside CNN, this was a week like no other. The
• 47:49
  Speaker 5: sudden removal of CNN boss Jeff Zucker... has rattled this
• 47:52
  Speaker 5: news outlet to its core. This is the ugliest shakeup
• 47:56
  Speaker 5: at CNN since the days Ted Turner was still walking
• 47:58
  Speaker 5: the halls. Zucker was in charge one minute and he
• 48:01
  Speaker 5: was gone the next. So why?
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: It's been a really tough day today and a tough
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: few days for us here at CNN.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: All week, really. I didn't want to.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: Talk about it until tonight. So the truth is that
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: we're all heartbroken because we lost our leader here. We
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: lost the man who was the backbone, the glue, and
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: the spirit of this company. The man who I personally
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: credit with changing my life. The man who believed in
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: me when nobody else did. So thank you, Jeff Zucker,
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: for everything you did for everyone at this network. And
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: for what you did to the entire country, for the
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: entire country.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: Sam, everything you were just saying about... That's why. The
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: voice and tone of media that caused people to distrust
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: it was.
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: Like, I'm turning that off.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: We didn't even plan that. It was like encapsulated in
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: those clips.
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: Not since Bernard Shaw was under a desk in Baghdad.
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: Also, let me tell you something that happens in legacy
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: newsrooms all the time. CEO turnover. It happens a lot.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: There's just, there's a lot to unpack here.
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: He invented putting Trump's empty podium on CNN until Trump
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: showed up. Can't take that away from him.
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: But like, Okay. There's the whole thing about, like, you know,
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: should he have been fired because of a consensual relationship.
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: I'm going to stop you right there and say yes,
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: because the two of them were in charge of a lot.
• 49:25
  Speaker 4: And if and she was working under him, if there's
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: any even sense that their relationship meant that her department
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: got more.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: Or others got less. She was getting promoted or anything
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: like that.
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: That's why you got it.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: That's why you got it.
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: It's not fair. And I'm surprised that she still gets
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: to stay.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, again, I don't know all, like, and,
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: you know, there's rumors that there's other shoes, there's another
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: shoe might drop.
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: Who else was he messing with?
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, that, like, you know, she was also
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: former communications director to Andrew Cuomo, so were they involved
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: in helping with the Cuomo stuff, too? I don't know. Again, like,
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: we don't know all this kind of stuff. And they're also, like,
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: were the Discovery, Warner Media, Titans trying to push him out,
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: and they use this as an excuse? Was it Chris
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: Cuomo's intention? So all of this Whatever.
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: Follow the money.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: Whatever. This is all like sort of internal stuff that
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: I don't actually think is a big, you know, story
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: in the national interest. But I am like the CNN employees.
• 50:22
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: Like and look, you love your boss. Your boss leaves.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: I get it. But sort of the public, the public just.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: I don't know over this is a lot.
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: My boss.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: Sarah Jones in New York Magazine wrote a piece that
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: was just like, hey, CNN, everyone calm down was the headline.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: I was just like, yeah, that's sort of how I
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: feel right now.
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: I think stepping back from this, I think there's a
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: kind of navel gazing.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the word. It's the navel gazing. It's a lot.
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: In the mainstream media that is sometimes a bit smug
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: and sanctimonious.
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: That's a nice way to put it.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: And just out of touch with what people are actually
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: worried about.
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: They're trying to get their kids back in school. They
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: want to get their young kids vaccinated. They're worried about inflation.
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: Can I afford a home? And then it's come on now.
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: Zucker will never be broke. He'll never be broke. What
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: are we doing? He'll be fine.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: It's just Jeff Zucker.
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is about the perspective. It's like, what are
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: we covering today?
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Also, also. Parker Molloy wrote a piece about this in
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: her excellent newsletter about just reminding everyone about some of
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: Zucker's quotes in Jonathan Mahler's 2017 profile of him for
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: the New York Times Magazine, in which he said, Zucker said,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: the idea that politics is sport is undeniable, and we
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: understand that and approached it that way. Let me tell you,
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: that is a huge fucking reason Americans have record low
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: trust in the media, because politics is true to sport.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: And then he said, as Zucker sees it, his pro-Trump
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: panelists on CNN are not just spokespeople for a worldview.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: They are, quote, characters in a drama.
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: That's what it was.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: That's what we were talking about.
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: Characters in a drama.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: Characters in a drama.
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm turning on Joe Rogan at that point. Come
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: on now.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: And I just, like, whatever. I get it. Some of
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: these people worked with Jeff Zucker. They liked him. They
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: thought he was good. Whatever. But, like, that view of
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: what news should be where he was, like, A guy
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: that helped make Trump in the first place and then
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: turned on Trump because that was a more interesting story.
• 52:29
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: But you know what's really frustrating? I know a lot
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: of CNN journalists. When I covered 2016, I was on
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: the road on the same buses and the same gaggles
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: with CNN journalists who on the ground are literally trying
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: to do the Lord's work.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: And the bulk of the newsroom of these institutions, not
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: just CNN, they are in it for the right reasons.
• 52:50
  Speaker 4: They believe in it. They are not served. by that
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: approach to journalism. And it's like, it's just like, I
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: don't know. There needs to be a big old come
• 52:58
  Speaker 4: to Jesus meeting. Cause like, what are we doing? If
• 53:00
  Speaker 4: this is what's happening, what are we doing?
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: And I do think there is a difference, even with
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: the anchors and the folks on air, there's a difference
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: in the journalism that you see from Jake Tapper and
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: Dana Bash and Caitlin Collins and people like that. And
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: then like, you know, the monologues that you used to
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: get from Chris Cuomo or Don Lemon.
• 53:21
  Speaker 4: Remember their pass-offs?
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: Or fucking Jim Acosta. It's just, it's a little, people
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: can tell. It's a little much.
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: It's like, it's a little bit, it's newsroom-y. And I
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: say that as someone with very first-hand experience on the
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: creation of the newsroom. You know, look, I did, there's
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: a kind of, like, the newsroom made Cable news seemed
• 53:46
  Speaker 3: more serious, and then a bunch of people watched the newsroom,
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: and now they're playing out their own version of, everyone's
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: doing good night and good luck every single fucking night. Like, hello.
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: It's unbelievable.
• 53:59
  Speaker 4: How long until Jeff Zucker's new media startup partners with
• 54:04
  Speaker 4: Joe Rogan?
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: Well, I didn't know until I read Parker's newsletter that
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: Jeff Jeff Zucker was instrumental in the rise of Joe. Yeah.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: Fear factor in The Apprentice. Come on. It's all it
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: all connects. It all connects.
• 54:18
  Speaker 6: All right.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: Finally, a media scandal that hits very close to home.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: A few weeks ago on this very podcast, our own
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: John Lovett asked former Obama colleague and current White House
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: press secretary Jen Psaki about how she handles annoyingly dumb
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: questions from Fox News correspondent Peter Doocy, including a recent
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: attempt to make Biden seem like he doesn't care about crime.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: Here's how Jen answered.
• 54:36
  Speaker 6: You know, I am not here to work for Peter
• 54:39
  Speaker 6: Doocy or Fox, but I will say that, you know,
• 54:44
  Speaker 6: if you look at how it's portrayed and how my
• 54:47
  Speaker 6: answers are portrayed, even when I say, no, we don't
• 54:50
  Speaker 6: think crime is good. And here's all the things we've done,
• 54:53
  Speaker 6: including the thing that makes I think it makes Republicans crazy,
• 54:57
  Speaker 6: just anecdotally by the hate hate tweets I get on
• 55:00
  Speaker 6: Twitter when I say this. is that they voted against
• 55:03
  Speaker 6: funding for local cops programs because the American rescue plan
• 55:07
  Speaker 6: also that Biden has supported $ 300 billion more in funding.
• 55:12
  Speaker 6: And at the same time, he also thinks we need
• 55:14
  Speaker 6: police reform. It's like, they don't know what to do
• 55:16
  Speaker 6: with that. But every time we say that it makes
• 55:18
  Speaker 6: them crazy. I, you know, I think it speaks to,
• 55:22
  Speaker 6: if you look at Fox on a daily basis, I mean,
• 55:24
  Speaker 6: do you remember the four boxes that you had that
• 55:26
  Speaker 6: we had on all the TVs, right?
• 55:27
  Speaker 4: Which is on my TV right now.
• 55:29
  Speaker 6: So right now, just to give you a sense. So CNN, Pentagon,
• 55:33
  Speaker 6: as many as 8,500 US troops on heightened alert.
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: Okay, true.
• 55:36
  Speaker 6: Same on MSNBC. CNBC is doing their own thing about
• 55:40
  Speaker 6: the market.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: And then on.
• 55:41
  Speaker 6: Fox is Jeanine Pirro talking about soft on crime consequences.
• 55:45
  Speaker 6: I mean, what does that even mean, right? So there's
• 55:49
  Speaker 6: an alternate universe on some coverage. What's scary about it
• 55:54
  Speaker 6: is a lot of people watch that and they think
• 55:57
  Speaker 6: that the president isn't doing anything to address people's safety
• 56:01
  Speaker 6: in New York, and that couldn't be further than the
• 56:02
  Speaker 6: truth for other places.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: And here's just a small taste of what Fox did
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: to that answer over the last week.
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: Jen Psaki laughed about, quote, soft on crime policies and
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: said those are in an alternate universe. Well, Jen, we're
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: not in an alternate universe. You are.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: Jen, are you so locked up in your ivory tower
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: that you have no idea what Americans really care about
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: and what they're concerned about?
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: That's Jen Psaki's position.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: You'd have to be delusional to think crime was a
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: problem in this country.
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: Now you see Peppermint Patty dismissing crime because, well, she
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: hates the messenger too.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: Love it. What do you have to say for yourself?
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: Talk about navel gazing. We decided to really end with this.
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: I had no idea that this interview had blown up
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: so much because I'm in my own information bubble.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: Same.
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: All of us are leading. We're on Tucker. We're on
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: the five.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: Amazing.
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: You made the five.
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: We made the five.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: It's just amazing that Jen's whole point in the answer is, Well,
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: she started by talking about how crime is a real issue.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: They didn't just take her out of context. They made
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: her make the opposite point of what she was trying
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: to make.
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: You know, it speaks to something that ties all these
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: conversations together, which is all across our media, there are crafty,
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: innovative people trying to find ways to make money, taking
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: advantage of the mistrust people feel. And very, very few
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: people making money by trying to rebuild that trust. Lots
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: of people talking about the trust issues. Not a lot
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: of money in it right now. But then there's a
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: lot of people trying to figure out ways to kind
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: of like, how can we exploit the fact that they
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: assume that the Democrats are soft on crime? How can
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: we exploit the fact that they're never going to listen
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: to the actual episodes so we can just take this out?
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: How can we exploit the fact that they don't trust
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: CNN or don't trust the New York Times when we
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: talk about COVID? How can we take advantage of this?
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: End of thought.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, if you're Jenner of the White House, like,
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: how do you handle shit like this? I mean, what
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: do you do? You go fact check it and then you,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: you know, the Washington Post fact checked it. Great. How
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: many people saw the fact check?
• 58:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah.
• 58:05
  Speaker 4: I just, it's what they do. I remember there was
• 58:08
  Speaker 4: a documentary about Fox years ago and they talked about
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: how for years at every morning meeting, there was like
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: the Jesse Jackson portion of the morning meeting. Like, what
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: do we got on him today? We got a beat
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: up on Jesse today. What are we doing? Like, this
• 58:21
  Speaker 4: is like just what, what Fox News does. They're going
• 58:24
  Speaker 4: to find something to whip.
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:27
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: And that's also an example of just like the playing
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: field here is not level. And I'm not just talking
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: about the playing field between conservative media and progressive media.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: It's conservative media versus progressive media and mainstream media. And
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: dare I.
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: Say it's a for-profit media versus non-profit media. I know
• 58:47
  Speaker 4: I'm biased.
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: Well, and like exactly, especially if you're non-profit media, like
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: you don't have the resources to fight that.
• 58:54
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: And, you know, and on our side, we have a
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: lot of liberal millionaires and billionaires who will donate money
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: to all kinds of causes except for, you know, actually
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: kind of create a progressive media infrastructure.
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: Well, because they are, they're, they're cosmopolitan moderates, right? They just,
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: they find Trump, they find it disgusting. Uh, they're, you know, they,
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: they're pro-gay, they're, uh, pro-women's rights, but when push comes
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: to shove, that's not where their heart is at. Here's
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: the other thing I would say about this too, which is,
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of times Democrats get into these
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: intra-democratic arguments because Democrats, uh, um, You know, you argue
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: with people who argue back in good faith. You tend
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: to pick your fights with people who are willing to
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: kind of come back at you. And there have been
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: multiple news cycles about who's responsible for our messaging problem?
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: Who's responsible for our losses in this election? Is it
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: the progressives?
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: Is it the moderates?
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: Was Terry McAuliffe lose because he was a Clintonite? Or
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: was it the schools? There was nothing wrong with what
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: Jen Psaki said on this show. There was nothing even
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: remotely distasteful about it. Nothing whatsoever. She didn't screw up.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: She didn't make a gaffe. She didn't make a mistake.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: She didn't tell me to go kickboxing.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: And yet for a day, it was exploited to drive
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: home the message that Democrats are soft on crime and
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: Democrats want to abolish the police.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: Because it's a political operation. Because Fox News is a
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: political operation.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: And the problem is the problem. It's not what some
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: random activist says about crime. It's not Jen Psaki not
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: exercising messages of discipline. She's incredibly disciplined. It's not the
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: disputes within the Democratic Party on policy, which gets nowhere
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: near what happens on Fox. There is a giant corporate-backed
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: machine designed to make Democrats look evil, feckless, and stupid.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: And we do not have the equivalent on our side.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: Half the media says Washington is fucked. The other half
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: says Democrats are fucked. And we wonder why we can't
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: win elections. The problem is the problem.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they don't. Well, also, they're all shameless there, right?
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: So if you're running a very well-tuned political machine, political operation,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: and you are shameless and you don't mind just driving
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: home the same message every day, that's how people have
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: won campaigns forever. Fox News has been running a campaign
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: ever since they've been around.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 5: You bet.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: And that's how they do it right there. It's not
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: like magic. All you have to do is be shameless
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: and repeat the same message.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: Every day they have their morning meeting and then you
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: march down into the mausoleum and you get your orders
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: from Roger Ailes' fucking head. And that's that.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: You think his head's there?
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he's calling the shots.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: On that note.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: The only thing that I can take away from this
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 4: whole conversation is that the way to fight back against
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: all of this is to go stream Indie Ari on
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 4: repeat on Spotify for the rest of the week.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: There's only one hero in this entire conversation. Indie Ari!
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: We love her.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: And I also.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 4: She's not the average girl from your video.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: Wasn't there a moment of poignancy when she said she
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: was surprised by the attention she had gotten for sharing
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: this information? It was like, how dare we? As it
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: make her feel that way.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: India deserves nothing but flowers. Nothing but streams.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: Thank you, India. And thank you, Sam Sanders, for joining
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: us today. So great to be here. A wonderful conversation.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: Come back anytime.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: Thank you. Support your nonprofit newsroom of your choosing, listeners.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: Love that.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, or, you know, or sort of. progressive, sustainable media
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: companies trying their fucking best.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: Music, play us out. Oh, wow.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: It's a 501c3.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 1:02:31
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• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: Our producer is Haley Muse, and Olivia Martinez is our
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: associate producer. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle
• 1:02:42
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• 1:02:49
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• 1:02:53
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• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: slash crookedmedia.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: In the 1970s, a young group of violent revolutionaries joined
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: forces to create the Weather Underground Organizations.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: A group of radicals who brawled with police officers and
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: bombed the Pentagon, all in the name of ending racism.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Zayd Ayers-Dorn, host of Crooked Media's new podcast,
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: Mother Country Radicals, which dives into the true story of
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 3: how my parents and their friends went from peace-loving activists
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: to topping the FBI's most wanted list.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: New episodes of Mother Country Radicals are out every Thursday.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: Listen and subscribe wherever you get podcasts.