Latest / Woodlands Church Academy's Podcast / Summer'26 Bible School - 1 Corinthians- Session 4- George Kirke, Tim Dobson and Catherine Penn

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Summer'26 Bible School - 1 Corinthians- Session 4- George Kirke, Tim Dobson and Catherine Penn · Woodlands Church Academy's Podcast

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, um, yeah, my first reaction when Tim asked me to speak about 1 Corinthians chapter 13 was oh no, it's the famous one that everyone's probably heard before.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a quick show of hands.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: Anyone not heard that passage before?
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what I thought.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the Church of England website says that it is the most common reading chosen for weddings.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so often that's what people think of when they hear, especially that middle section, the love is, love is not section.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but as Tim mentioned earlier, it falls inside the passage, the group of chapters that's all about the church gatherings.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: So really he's not talking about that kind of gathering, but more our kind of Sunday service gathering, um, which the Corinthians were having, um, just like we do, but probably meeting in various different places.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Tim's already mentioned some of the problems that Paul was addressing.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so this passage, when you look at it first of all, um the first thing that I note about it is that it's actually really short.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, only 13 verses, where the chapter before is 31, uh, chapter 14 is 21, and chapter 15 is an epic.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Really, really long.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there it is, it's very short, it's very different in style, um, much more poetic, especially again that middle part that everyone goes for.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it must have something slightly different to talk about.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what is it about?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's 13 verses, and nine times it mentions that word love.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: So this is this is what we're going for.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I wanted to first of all talk about that word love.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: And when I'm looking at this kind of passage, what I like to do is really look at sometimes the Greek really tells you good information.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: So in this case, um, the word love in English we use it to mean all sorts of different things.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I will say things like, I love beer, um, I love board games.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is a game called Terraforming Mars for anyone that wants to learn.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'm happy to teach it's quick.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um I love my pets.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: When it comes up, it may have died.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's dead.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so uh yeah, I love my pets.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: My two cats, Jive, and General Stanley is the hairless one there, who was helping me this afternoon by sitting on my shoulder while I was writing this.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um kind of similar, I like these things a lot.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'll probably be more upset if I lose a cat than if I spilt a pint of beer, though.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Still use the same word.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um I love my son, Benjamin.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Completely different level of love now, isn't it?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I can happily say I love my wife.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Here we are a few years ago.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: English word love, loads of different meanings.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: In Greek, it's different.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: They use different words to mean the same things that we might use altogether, the word love.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so there are four words.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so we've got filia, the love between close friends or brothers, sometimes just called brotherly love.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: In English, we get all those words with phile on the end.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's hundreds of them.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: I noted anglophile and technophile are probably ones that people might have heard, but there are so many.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um we get the word erotic from it, it means passionate love, intimacy.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm not a Greek scholar, and I had to really look up how to say this next one.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's storge or store gee, I'm not quite sure.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's the love between family members.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then finally, we've got agape, which is unconditional sacrificial love.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: And um, there's no prizes for guessing which one is used in this passage.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's all the way through it's agape.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: C.S.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: Lewis describes it as the selfless love that is passionately committed to the well-being of others.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's sometimes translated, um, I think it's in the King James Version as charity.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um in all other versions I looked at, it was translated as love, but there it is as charity, selfless giving.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: For a bit more of a description, we can look in other parts of the Bible where the same word is used.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So John 3.16, for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: So Agape love is the love that God has for the world, for everyone, for you.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: He was challenged by a uh the Sadducees, I think it was, and they didn't like his answer, so they asked him about commandments, and he said the greatest commandment love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: This is the first and greatest commandment.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's translated as the word agape in there.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the love that God has for us, and it's the love that we should have for God.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's also love your neighbor as yourself, it's the love that we should have for others.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that's quite key.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the love that Paul is talking about.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: I've split this passage up into three sections.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're done in the paragraphs in most Bibles, are these three paragraphs, verses one to three, verses four to six, and verses eight to thirteen.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but to help me explain it, I've decided just to switch around the order that I'm going to explain.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm gonna look at verses four to six first and then go back to one to three.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: So verses four to six are those that really famous bit.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: The love is, love is not.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's 15 descriptions of what love is and what love isn't.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: There are eight about what it is not, and there are seven about what it is.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: So Paul's using a rhetorical device called negation here, where you describe what something is by saying what it isn't.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um sometimes to explain something that's quite hard to grasp, it's useful to try and say what you know it isn't.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a primary school teacher, and if a child's trying to explain something to me that they find difficult, I'll often get them to use this.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: So, a good example is um sustainability.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about looking after the planet.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Sustainability is the big word that's often used.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: But could you tell me what sustainability is?
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Could you define it really clearly?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think you'd find it quite tricky.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: I know I do.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: But if you were to describe what sustainability isn't, I think you'd probably be able to find some pretty easy examples to get yourself started.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Burning fossil fuels until they run out is not sustainability.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think an easy one.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: It gets us going with what the idea is.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what Paul's going for here.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing that I note is that in the translation that's here, it's slightly different from the one that was read out.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a lot more descriptions of what love does and does not.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, they're kind of split in half.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um sorry, they're not split in half.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's much more descriptions about the verbs.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I've I've made a handy table for you, I'm a very logical person, so let's do things like this.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um when talking about what love is or does, there are two adjectives describing words, patient and kind, and there are five verbs, rejoices with the truth, protects, trusts, hopes, perseveres.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Five and two.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the same with what it does and does not, but is not and does not.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's not proud, it's not self-seeking, it does not envy, it does not boast, it does not dishonour others, it does not keep a record of wrongs, it does not delight in evil.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a split there.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: There's far more about action and less about being.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, I would argue that if you are patient, you are doing something, if you're being patient with someone, not often, waiting for them to come to the conclusion that you want them to come to or to do the thing you want them to do.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's actually an action.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's the same with kindness.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: If your someone's described you as being kind, you've probably done something for them to use that word about you.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna slide those into that section and say that there's seven verbs there about love, eight verbs about what it is not, and only two descriptions of what it is not.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the point that Paul's trying to make here is that love is all about action.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about feelings, it's not about being, it's about action, it's about what you do.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: And he's challenging the actions of the Corinthians in their gatherings.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: Tim's described some of the things already.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Rich people getting all the food.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's not loving.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: He is addressing in chapters 12 and 14 some other specific things, which is what I'm more going to focus on, um, in terms of spiritual gifts, because moving on to the next set of verses, so back to the beginning, verses 1 to 3, I think to help us understand that, I want to look even further back, just to chapter 12 in the end.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because uh, as Tim said in the first talk, when these were all split up into chapters and verses, it wasn't by Paul, this was done by other people, and I think that you can see there's a subtitle there, Love is Indispensable.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's coming right at the end of a chapter, it seems very odd to me.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this applies to the next bit.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: So he's talked about spiritual gifts and how different parts of the church are all important and different people are all important, we've all got different gifts, we've all got different things to offer.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing is better, nothing is worse.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: And he says to seek the greater spiritual gifts.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, this is the key thing, and yet, I will show you the most excellent way.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: It's right at the end of chapter 12.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: The most excellent way is this next bit.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: So then verses 1 to 3, he talks about if you've got these fantastic spiritual gifts, speaking in the tongues of men and angels, but if you don't do it with love, in a loving way, you are just a resounding gong or a clanging symbol.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: People in the Corinthian church were speaking in tongues to get people to think they were very spiritual and very holy.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, Dan back in the very first talk spoke about how in the Corinthian culture it was all about getting ahead, being important, gaining influence.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's what people were trying to do by speaking in tongues.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: They were going, look at me, I'm awesome.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what a gong or a symbol does.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: It grabs your attention.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's all they're doing.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, if I have a faith that can move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: You can have great faith.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: I read a wonderful phrase that said, if you've got enough faith to move mountains but you don't have love, you're gonna move that mountain into someone else's way.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was reminded when reading this of a story that Jesus told about a poor widow and a rich person both giving in the temple.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the rich person prayed out loud and made sure everyone saw how much money he put into the pot.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: But the poor widow quietly put just two copper pieces into the collection.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And in that parable at the end, Jesus asks, and who do you think God's treasuring they're giving more?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the poor person who gave as much as they could.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: She was doing it with love.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: The other person was doing it to get attention, and that's what this is all about.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: If you are doing things, if you are showing off to get attention, which is what the Corinthians were doing, then it's not right.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then the last part takes on a slightly different tone again.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Talking about love never failing.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to focus in on these bits here, for we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, that word completeness is sometimes translated as perfection.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I wonder if anyone can work out what's what might that be referring to.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Please just shout out any ideas.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Completeness coming or perfection coming.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_03: Jesus.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's referring to Jesus coming.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: So this is talking about how these spiritual gifts that are fantastic things are a glimpse towards the kingdom of God.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: And when the kingdom of God comes, when Jesus returns, we won't need them anymore.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: So they're not the focus.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: The focus is the effect they can have, the bringing of the kingdom now.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then he goes on to this bit.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: Again, I think it's a fairly famous bit.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: He's saying to them, you're acting like children, you're trying to get attention.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: I work as a primary school teacher, I can tell you, children are always trying to get your attention.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: They really crave it, don't they?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and children have to learn how to talk, they have to learn language develops over time.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um they think their thoughts develop over time, they have to be introduced to more complex ideas.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And if you give them something to use and you don't explain how to use it, they'll probably use it wrong.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: And um, again, in another place in 1 Corinthians, Paul mentions how the uh they are like infants, they need spiritual milk and they need to move on, and this is another reference to that.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: They need to mature in their faith and use these gifts for the right things rather than being childlike and trying to gain that attention.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So finally, another reference to that coming of Jesus.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: For now, we only see a reflection as in a mirror.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Again, that kingdom of God is only partially coming, it's it's being shown by the spiritual gifts.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: But when it comes, faith, hope, and love will remain, and all these things we won't need them anymore.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: So now you need to use them for the right thing.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want to look in the Bible for where and how to do this, then look no further than Jesus.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: In John chapter 13, verses 34 to 35, it says, A new command I give you, love one another as I have loved you, so you must love one another.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: By this everyone will know that you are my disciples if you love one another.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Again.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's that word agape in that same passage.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the end of what I've got to say.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're gonna have a bit of discussion time now.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Is that right?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I'd encourage you, if there's anything I've said that has really struck you, please just share it with the person next to you.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but if you want a question to talk about instead, um then I'd say if you have you taken action to love someone recently, please share it with the person next to you.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Use it as a sign of encouragement.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: And if you haven't, could you think of something that you might try to do?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to look at chapter 15 now, and um uh as Paul read it, I'm not sure if you had any questions around how was Paul trying to get at there?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: And and and and why um why is he bothered that some of them have uh a wrong perception on the resurrection?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um you might think that there'll be all kinds of other theological issues that if they had a wrong view on, that he might tackle, the wrong if or if they had a wrong view on the atonement, uh kind of that it might be a bit of treatise around around the cross and and kind of or if that but what why is it that Paul here both uh in 1 Corinthians and also in 2 Corinthians, actually he's he's um really concerned that they have an appropriate, accurate view, accurate theology about the resurrection.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was just saying to George that uh within our church, apart from Easter Sunday, we very rarely talk about the resurrection.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: We'll talk about the cross actually, at least every other Sunday when it's communion, uh we reflect on the cross, the body uh broken and the blood that was poured out.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, we we reflect quite a bit on the cross, but actually we we don't reflect an awful lot on the resurrection.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: And yet Paul says here, it seems for him to be a really crucial deal.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and why is it that we in the West have uh a poorer view or a scarcer view about the resurrection, and maybe it seemed to be vital to Paul.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: But didn't I don't know if that kind of struck you as you as you read it?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: He seemed to have some quite in-depth reflections and thoughts about the resurrection, and and maybe we, our ideas of the resurrection, are we kind of going to be with Jesus when we die.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: That that kind of might be might be it.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: And yet Paul thinks, actually, no, some of you uh there's times where he talks to people that they think the resurrection's already happened, and and here they say that the resurrection uh actually doesn't happen.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: And and but both times Paul is um uh is keen to correct them.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um I don't know if people've got any thoughts on why we don't talk about the resurrection so much.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_04: Um whereas an old day and talk.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, possibly yeah, yeah.
• 19:33
  unknown: We talk too much about heaven and think it's somewhere else.
• 19:37
  unknown: Okay.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: So the idea of we're going to heaven when we die is kind of this this ethereal clouds and harps and choirs and kind of uh, and actually we haven't got obviously we haven't listened to the words of Jesus or we haven't listened to Paul, because actually the resurrection is so much more amazing than just playing a harp on a cloud, kind of forever.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh actually, I I I I kind of wonder if we don't talk about the resurrection much because we don't like to talk about death much.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if that's the case.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of the the West has a fear of death.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: When you live in a materialistic world and you're just living for what is, the thought of this, what is stopping is ultimate fear.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of kind of what what what next?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: And and so we focus so much onto the here and now, and we don't want to think about death.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, even when death happens, we try to kind of sanitize it and hide it.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: So uh we have a funeral parlor and uh closed casket, and um and and the reality is that um quite often I'll do a uh a two-hour session on death and hell uh with some of our trainees, um, and it's a wonderful morning.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um and um uh and I'll ask them how many of you have actually seen a dead body?
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll get them to put their hands up.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it's normally it's less than half.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_02: And they're at they're adults, and and and you think, well, why haven't you seen a dead body?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, if we're in other countries, if we're in the Middle East, if we're in Africa, if we're in actually, death is very much part of community life.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: And and of course you've seen dead bodies because they're there in the street, or that you're picking them out of rubble from an earthquake, and and and here we sanitize death.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: And we sanite a material, Western materialized world will hive death because it's the ultimate thing that we're that finishes our worldview.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Annihilation is after that.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a fear of death, and so actually we we frequently we don't talk about death, and I think it's the same for the Christian church, it's actually that we we've got the same disease as the Western culture, is that actually for some of us um we're we're fearful of death.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, that's what it says.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: In the writers of the Hebrews says, by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death, that is the devil, and free those who all their lives were held slavery by their fear of death.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: And in some ways, there's a fear of death that kind of people don't want to engage with and don't want to think about.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so we'll get the funeral directors to sort it all out, and and uh there's closed coffin flowers and and and we kind of do grief in our own kind of way, but it's it's quite a personalized thing rather than a corporate thing, and um, and I think we've just got a lot to learn about how uh about death and how uh we navigate and how we handle death.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: And um we haven't got time now, but if you want to kind of look on the back copies of the um uh the Bible school, uh I did a session with um Jane Blazeby, she's a professor, uh works at with oncology, and um and we did a session on uh death, friend or foe.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: Is death a friend?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: So God did God always intend us to die physically, or is death a foe?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: Is death a consequence of the fall?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: And both of us try to reason that actually death we kind of think is what God always imagined would happen.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but because we wrap it up with the fear of death, we actually we we assume that that um the cross does something about physical death.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, in the end, the cross doesn't do anything about physical death.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna die physically.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because actually, even when Jesus returns, Paul says here that your body's going to be somehow transformed.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that this body that we've got now was always intended to fail.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: Even Adam and Eve in the garden, their bodies were intended to fail, they're intended to die.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Because the caution was, let's put the angel here to stop them going back to eat from the tree of life, because if they ate from the tree of life, they would live forever, which assumes that they weren't gonna live forever.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because if the only condition that they would live forever was that they eat from the tree of fruit of life, then my reckon it means that they weren't gonna live forever.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: So if God always intended us to die, then death isn't something to be feared.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, death is part of God's divine plan for us all.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, he always intended the doorway, the portal between this experience and what he was always going for, which was the new heaven, new earth experience, where his love could be totally entwined with us and we'd be with him in a new heaven, new earth experience.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's where he was always going.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: He wasn't trying to get back to Eden, he was trying to get forward to the new heaven and new earth.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so for my money, the the devil has gives us fear of physical death.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, which is which is why when we talk about death and resurrection, um that's sorry, the the word death can mean both physical and spiritual separation.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes we see the word death and we assume that it's physical, and maybe it's talking about spiritual.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes we think, oh, it's talking about spiritual, but maybe it's talking about physical.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: So the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: Is the death there, physical death, or spiritual death?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God's eternal life.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think the gift of God's eternal life is spiritual.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: The second half of the couplet.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: So surely the wages of sin is spiritual death, and not physical death.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: So on the day that you eat of the food, you'll surely die.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: He ate from the fruit, and on that day he didn't die physically.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: He did die spiritually.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: So the wages and consequences of of sin is a spiritual death.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think that affects our so um Jane, who uh in her professional capacity, uh most weeks has to tell people they've got a termodiagnosis and tell them how many weeks, days, years, months they have to live.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um and she navigates professionally through that it that those conversations.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, she's convinced that actually this is part of what God intended.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: Now he didn't necessarily intend the disease and the sickness and the pain and and and murder and rape and all this, all the evil that is associated sometimes with how people die.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't intend that.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, the fact that death was going to be part of our human existence, I think was in God's plan because he always had the end result in mind, the new heaven, new earth, of people who he could love, they could love him, face to face, kind of without the need of the physical sun, because his very presence was going to be there.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's always what he's heading for.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so this temporary bodies that we have, they were always going to be temporary because he had glorious bodies in mind for us all along.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: Does that kind of make sense?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: Now, you may totally disagree with that, and that is fine, because I'm not saying I've got the truth.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I just think it that does affect then how we think about death, because if it is something that God always intended, we'd navigate pastorally death not being fearful of it.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: We may be fearful of uh Woody Alan said famously, that um he didn't mind dying, he just didn't want to be there when it happened.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and and for some of us, that's probably it's the fear of the physicality of death and the pain and and whatever, rather than death itself.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I do understand the physicality of a broken world uh is not how God wants it to be.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: We pray for his kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um so um, but death itself, I think we're being held by the devil, if we're fearful of death.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: And um maybe I should have given people a little trigger warning, because I know for some of you, maybe you've had someone who's died recently, and you think, oh, this is a bit too sensitive for me, Tim, and I'm really sorry.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: If if that's you, then do close your eyes, put your fingers in your ears, kind of because uh I know it's a sensitive issue for for some people.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um Paul, when he talks about the resurrection, I think he has a is so convinced about the the historical resurrection of Jesus and also the certainty of his own physical resurrection, and it's not just a theological thing.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, he he faced death.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: He probably had more near-death experiences than most of us will uh ever have.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: Whether he was drowning at sea for I don't know how long it was, a few days.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, whether he was flogged, 39 lashes, most people died.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: Whether he was stoned and they left him there because they thought he was dead, actually, uh he'd probably died, almost died a number of times.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so it would have gone through his mind, am I ready to die?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: What is death like?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so when he writes to the Philippines, he says, for me to live as Christ, actually to die, do you know what?
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's gain.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to fear death.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, to actually to die is gain, because if I if I go, so if I go and live on the body, it means fruit fruitful labour for me, yet what shall I choose?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm torn between the two.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: I desire to depart, to die, because then I'll be with Christ, and and uh and that's better by far.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but it's more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: And he says, and therefore I think I'm gonna still stay alive for a bit longer.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but this idea of he wasn't fearful of death because he had a strong theology of both Jesus' resurrection and what the implication of when we are in Christ, the resurrection that he experiences will be our experience too.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so he didn't fear death.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: So the devil who tries to hold us in the fear of death, when we have a proper, adequate uh realization of resurrection, the theology of the resurrection, actually it should release us from fear, give us hope, give us certainty, to face the moment when it is our last breath, we kind of take our last breath knowing this is where we're going.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: This is what I believe, this is what Jesus was the pace setter.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: He he opened the way.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_02: Does that kind of make sense?
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um this chapter then is in the light of that.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: So so this chapter um he starts off saying, actually, this is the story arc.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: This was the arc of scripture.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: So he says, I pass on to you as first importance that Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that he was buried, and he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: Now, that little phrase according to the scriptures isn't that Paul in his mind had a verse from Isaiah chapter dot dot dot dot, and or that scripture was fulfilled when Jesus died for our sins.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Or that scripture from Joel chapter one was fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, what he means is according to scriptures, is actually scriptures were heading this way.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: From the the fall to the core of Abraham through the people of God, actually, the story was always coming to a representative who was going to die on behalf, not just of Israel, but the whole of humanity.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, so according to scriptures, here's where the destination was going to be: that Jesus was going to die for our sins.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, also, according to the scriptures, kind of the the arc from here onwards was that actually there's going to be resurrection.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: And according to the scriptures, not only was the Messiah gonna die, but actually Messiah was going to come to life again.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe Jonah, I don't know, the sign of Jonah, kind of.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so scripture, there wasn't a scripture that Paul had in mind, but it says actually the ark of scripture was always going to head towards the crucifixion.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, the ark of scripture was always going to head towards resurrection.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so we weren't surprised when he appeared to see to pick to Peter and to the twelve, he appeared to 500 people who were still living, actually appeared to James, and although it was a vision, actually he did appear to me.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh, and uh he was saying, and and so we should anticipate that not just the atonement, communion, kind of the crucifixion, but actually the resurrection is part of the story arc that we should live under.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: Which is why then he goes on to say, um, if you don't believe there's a resurrection, and then this is then as Paul read it, kind of you kind of we're kind of stumbling through, what's he trying to say?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: What's it?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: If you follow your thinking through, okay, so if you say that you don't believe there's a resurrection, well, that means that not even Christ has been raised.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because if no one's resurrected, it means no one is, including Jesus.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and if he hasn't been raised, then what we've preached is useless.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: Now you might think, well, Paul, you can still preach the crucifixion, you can still preach the um atonement, you can still preach deliverance, but actually, for Paul, if you didn't get the resurrection, actually the preaching is useless, and so is your faith.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: What's more than that, actually, because the resurrection was so much part of the gospel that we said to you, if we told you that Jesus was raised from the dead, which we did when we preached the gospel, actually, and Jesus isn't raised from the dead, actually, we're false witnesses.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: We've been giving false testimony.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: We've told you that Jesus raised from the dead, but if you believe that no one's raised from the dead, then actually we've been telling you porcupies.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um and if the dead aren't raised, then Christ has not been raised either.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: And if Christ hasn't been raised, actually your faith is futile.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, you're still in your sins.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: Now, oh, but my sins were dealt with on the cross.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, in Paul's mind, the resurrection is just as much part of the salvation deal as the crucifixion.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you don't if if Jesus wasn't raised from the dead, actually you're still in your sins.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, resurrection was uh uh justified that every sin was taken.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: So Jesus could only come back to life again when the sin that he bore his body was a hundred percent dealt with.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: And we can only know that sin was a hundred percent dealt with because he came back to life again, and and the resurrection was a um a vindication of the suffering uh that he had.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: So um, so your faith is futile if you don't believe the resurrection.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you're still in your sins if you don't believe in the resurrection.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, people who've fallen asleep, who've died in Christ, well, they're lost.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't believe resurrection, kind of um, do you know what?
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: Your religion, uh, I just pity you because you're hanging on to some kind of religious activity and it's not got the hope of the resurrection that's there.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, you're most to be pitied of all human beings.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: Can you see his argument?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: He's trying to say, well, if you your stance is that it's oh when when we die, well, that's the end.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, you no, you can't say that because all these things are the consequences of that.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: So his consequence is actually, I do believe that Jesus himself, he was raised from the dead.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: And he's raised from the dead.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he used this phrase first fruits.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I I've got little allotment, um, and uh I I love growing raspberries.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it gets to kind of June time, and one or two raspberries start to turn red, and and so you pick them and you eat, and they're the first fruit, and you just know actually, within the next three or four weeks, I'm gonna have a bump across of raspberries because I I've tasted the first fruit.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: That first fruit, only a few of them are red, and some still looks quite small or a bit green or yellow, but the first fruit assures me that the rest is on its way.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so Mike Four says that that Jesus is a bit like the first fruit.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: He's the first fruit, he's the first taste of a big harvest that's on the way.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: So um he says, but Christ has indeed been raised from the dead.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you say there's no resurrection, but Jesus, he has been raised from the dead.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_02: He's the first fruit of those who've fallen asleep.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: So he's like the first person that has beaten death, the first person that comes back in a, not in a physical body, but in a resurrection body.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: He he shows us that he pioneers, this is what a resurrection body looks like.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: So if you've ever wondered what a resurrection body looks like, when you when you die and when you come to the resurrection, what will you look like?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: Well, in some ways there's a bit of continuity.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: For Jesus, there's a bit of continuity, but with Jesus there was also mystery.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: So there was continuity in that for him he had the scars of his suffering, but there's mystery in that are you the gardener?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: Or we had all this walk to Emmaus, and we didn't recognize it was Jesus.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so for us, our resurrection bodies are going to be so much more than we can imagine, they're gonna fit into heaven and earth.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus' resurrection body could go through closed doors but can eat fish.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: It was suitable for the heavenly realm and the earthly realm.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_02: Our resurrection bodies are going to be just like Jesus's, suitable for the heavenly realm and suitable for the physical realm, the new heavenly realm and the new earthly realm.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna have bodies just like Jesus.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_02: He was the first fruit of those who've fallen asleep.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: He says in verse 23, um, but each in turn Christ the first fruit, then when he comes, those who belong to him.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: So when are we going to be resurrected?
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, we're gonna be resurrected when Jesus comes.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a little song that we sing sometimes about uh he's resurrected me.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, ah, do you know what?
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: I just can't sing that.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very sorry, because he hasn't resurrected me.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm gonna be resurrected when Jesus returns.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not sure why the songwriter put it there.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's a great song otherwise, but I haven't been resurrected yet.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's a bit like the one Jesus' body, his buried body began to breathe.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: No, his buried body didn't start to breathe, his buried body disappeared and he had a brand new body.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: Lazarus' body started to breathe, but Jesus' body, buried body, didn't start to breathe.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: It was a totally new body.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: So again, I struggle.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: The rest of the song's great.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't see that bit.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: You might think, Tim, you're a pedantic person.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yes, I am, but there's something about the resurrection that I know to be true, and I and I don't want it to be, I don't want my words to say stuff that I know.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_02: There's a profound thing about the resurrection of Jesus.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't just his body came back to life, kind of, no, it was a resurrection.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: It was so much greater than that.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: His body was a brand new body, and not the old body started to breathe again.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: Does that kind of make sense?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: So we're the first fruit.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, our resurrection will happen not when we die, but when we when Jesus returns.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: So if you're trying to have it in a uh that there's kind of here, here's life here, and there's the right, just who trust in Jesus and those who don't.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, we're all going to die unless Jesus returns.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: When we die, um there's like a waiting room.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: Uh kind of there's this place called Sheol, Hades, that's kind of the place of the departed.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: It seems to be that kind of uh all of humanity kind of waits here.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: For some people, it feels like paradise.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: Luke 16, uh, the uh the poor uh man uh is in paradise.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus says to the to the thief, today you will be with me in paradise.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus descended to the dead.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, for other people, kind of feels like anticipated judgment.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: I've been living for my physical body, my physical needs my whole life, and now I haven't got a physical body.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: And ah, it feels like, even while I'm waiting, that feels a bit fiery.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um but the day will come when everybody kind of seems to come back to life, and and there's resurrection, and and and with that resurrection, we all come before the great white throne and and we all face Jesus, and whoever we are, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, kind of not because we choose him as Lord, but because he's obviously Lord, it's not we choose him as Lord, then even people who've lived the most anti-Christian lives, they'll have to at that moment acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, and then there will be judgment.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: And those whose names are in the Lamb's Book of Life, goes to the new heaven and new earth, and then there's a destination, which again, if you want to look at Bible school, death and hell, um, three different interpretations of what that's that might look like.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um so so this is when resurrection is gonna happen, when Jesus returns, uh, which is kind of what um he he talks about.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: So he talks about a trumpet blast and something happening and Jesus returned, and at this point, resurrection for us is gonna happen.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the question is kind of uh how how will that happen?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of what will it feel like, what would it look like?
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so Paul starts to use some imagery that helps us to understand, because all we've known is the physical world, how can we start to understand resurrection life?
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: And so Paul takes examples like like seed.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, how will they be raised?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: What kind of body will they have?
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh how foolish.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed of perhaps wheat or something else.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_02: So if I if I have an acorn, I will plant an acorn.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: The acorn doesn't look like an oak tree.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: What is planted dies and it grows and it becomes an oak tree.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's so much more than the acorn.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: Or a kernel of wheat.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: You plant a kernel of wheat and it becomes a wheat plant, kind of, and the wheat plant doesn't look like that, it looks like that.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_02: And what he's saying is that just as a seed, perhaps wheat.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: So, but God gives us a body as he determines it, and each one, and each kind of seed is given its own body.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so he then talks about how so it will be with the resurrection of the dead.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_02: This body that you can see now, this Tim Dobson body, actually, it will it will die.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh this body will be like uh an acorn or like a piece of wheat.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: It will be sown, perishable.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: But what's the resurrection gonna look like?
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's gonna be raised, imperishable.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, it's gonna be raised, and it's gonna be something that is indestructible.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of this life is destructible, it's perishable, but our resurrection life is gonna be.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: Imperishable.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: It will be sown in dishonour.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: Again, when we breathe our final breaths, again, it's there's a sadness, there's a grief, there's a yeah, people struggling for the last it's it's kind of it's it's sown in in dishonour.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: But actually, we anticipate being raised in glory.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's sown in weakness as our bodies fail and our lungs cease to work and our brains cease to function.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, we it we're it's sown in weakness, but it will be raised in power.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's sown a natural body, but it'll be raised a spiritual body.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um and Paul's trying to use this in actually, this is what the resurrection, this is the hope we have in Jesus.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: He's the first root, and because we're in Christ, what's happened to Jesus Christ actually inevitably it will happen to us.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: And it will be like this.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: He uses the um illustration of clothes.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: Again, if you I'll tell you a mystery, you'll not all sleep, but we will all be changed.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: So they anticipate that Jesus, when Jesus returns, some Christians will still be alive.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: So they may not sleep, they might not be a terminology for dying, but they will change in a flash, in the twinkle of an eye, the last trumpet, uh, for the trumpet will sound the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: For the perishable must be must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: At the moment we are mortal.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think God made us to be mortal, but he intended us to be immortal.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's why Paul says in 1 Timothy that in Christ Jesus life and immortality has been brought to light through him, because we we are born mortal, but in following finding and following Jesus, because of his resurrection, actually we will become, we will be clothed in immortality.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_02: When the perishable is clothed with the imperishable, and immortality with immortality, then the same will come true.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: Death has been swallowed up in victory.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: The physical death, the spiritual death that has marred, actually, the spiritual death that keeps us away from God, actually, now that is swallowed up in people who find Jesus, there's now a hope through his death and through his resurrection that we will be like him.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: John, as he has his original revelation, actually, it again this was after Paul wrote his letter, so this is about AD 90.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: But again, the image that he sees is very much the same.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: So Revelation 20, verse 12, I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened, another book was opened.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: This was the book of life, and the dead, all the dead, were judged according to what they'd done, as recorded in the books.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: And the sea gave up the dead that were in them, and death and Hades gave up the death that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they'd done.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire, the lake of fire is the second death.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea, and I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from heaven from God, prepared as beautiful as a bride, beautifully dressed for a husband.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I heard a voice from the throne saying, Look, God's dwelling place is now among people, and he will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God, and he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there'll be no more death, there'll be no more mourning or crying or pain, for the old things have passed away.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: And he who seated on the throne said, I'm making everything new.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's resurrection hope.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right there.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_02: That's resurrection.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: That's what Paul was saying.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, you must preach the resurrection.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's part of the gospel deal because otherwise we live, even though we say we we trust Jesus and find, actually, we live under the fear of death.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of, we we we we don't want to die, but for Paul he says, do you know what?
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: For me, if I die, it's gain.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I can't, in some ways he's saying, I can't wait to die because I know I'll be with Jesus, and that's going to be better.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I know I've still got work to do, so I think I'm gonna stick around.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh and it's because he had a vision of what resurrection looked like.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as I said in 2 Corinthians, again, still writing to the same church, the same people, they're obviously still thinking about the resurrection, because he has to tell them again.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: So this is in chapter 4 of 2 Corinthians.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: Therefore, do not lose heart.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we're being renewed day by day.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: For our light and momentary troubles of this physical world and our physical body are achieving for us eternal glory that far awaits them all.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: For we fix our eyes not on what is seen, the physical world round about us, fear of death, but on what is unseen.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_02: What is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then he takes the illustration of a tent.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_02: For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: Again, if you go on a camping holiday, it's great for the first three or four days.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: If you're there for two or three weeks and it's raining and it's whatever, you think, do you know what?
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: I could just do it and be back home.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: And in some ways, a tent that starts to kind of squeak in the rain and that bends in the wind and starts to leak a bit.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, there's a time we think, do you know what?
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to pack this tent up because I know that there's a bricks and mortar.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, at one point, this physical body is like a tent, and it's been great to have for now, but it comes from it's when our joints start to wake and our hearing starts to get not as quite as good.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: Death will tell you that, um, um, when she asks me to do stuff.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um and kind of our our bodies start to wear out.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's like our like a tent that's reached the end of its useful life, but we know we've got a permanent building, bricks and mortar in heaven.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, we groan, longing to be clothed instead in our heavenly dwelling, because while we are clothed, uh while we are clothed, we will not be found naked.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: For while we are in this tent, this physical body, we're groan and burdened because we do not wish to be unclothed, but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that's Paul's confidence of the resurrection.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: That if you that Jesus rose from the dead, if you are in Jesus, you don't just have the benefits of his death on the cross, actually, you have the benefits of his resurrection.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, the benefits of his resurrection is that this physical body that uh is given to the vagaries of this world, one day this temple will be backed up and we'll find that our resurrection body in the new heaven and new earth.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: A new earth, this earth is broken and it needs to be renewed.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, new heaven, you might think, well, why do we need a new heaven if heaven is where God lives?
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, the heaven is also where the devil lives and where the demons live, the heavenly realm.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so the new, we need a new heaven as well as a new earth, because we need to deal with the forces of evil that go into the lake of fire, as well as the brokenness of the physical world.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: So the new heaven is, the old heaven has gone away.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: No more devil, no more demons.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and the new heaven's come.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: And the old earth is gone, and the new earth has come, and somehow the new heaven and new earth meld and to become one.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and God comes home to be with us, his people.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's quite exciting.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's something that actually should really motivate us in our lives.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_02: Not just when you're getting a little bit older like me, and the time's coming nearer when I'm going to anticipate being with Jesus, but actually, however old or young you are, that is a hope we should all should have.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really sorry I've talked a bit long there.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry about that.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_02: Any questions or or comments before we just take a little handbrake turn and do a little bit?
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_03: When Jesus died to approve the wrote.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_02: How long?
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: Probably about um about 30 years, something like that.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: I would say about 30, 35.
• 52:27
  unknown: Yeah.
• 52:27
  unknown: Um what does he mean when he says um that you can add more people?
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I think he became a Christian and became an apostle, not like the ones who spent the three years with Jesus.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: So he talks about the other apostles, those other kind of founders of the Christian faith, they spent three years with Jesus.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: Now, obviously, Jesus died and came back to life again and ascended back to heaven before Paul had his encounter with Jesus.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: So, in some ways, they were born again while Jesus was there.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: His born-again experience was slightly abnormal to theirs because he saw Jesus, the vision of Jesus from heaven, whereas they saw the physical Jesus.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: So, in some ways, he's comparing his experience to the experience of the other uh apostles at the time.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: Is that okay?
• 53:19
  unknown: Yeah.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um so the first one is what you talk about the edge, was one of the guys in the background that you got to the laws.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: It feels like a bit of a tangent.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: So he's saying in Corinth, um why some people were saying that the resurrection isn't going to happen or after life doesn't matter, is well, we might as well then just be like everyone else.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_02: So so that quote isn't from the a quote from the Bible.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually is that a quote from the Bible?
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, maybe it is.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_02: There's sometimes he he quotes the local sayings.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh I think it might be a proper.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a quotation it's a quotation from a play.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so I think it's kind of like like an attitude, uh, that an axiom that have been absorbed.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so it's saying actually, and if you keep the company of people who hold that view, uh let's each drink and be merry, actually, you're not gonna be the body of Jesus that has a different perspective, a different worldview.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_02: So hanging around with those people will corrupt you.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_02: People who say, well, let's just eat and drink, because what we do today doesn't affect our future.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, no, actually, no, it does.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of there's gonna be judgment uh uh that's gonna happen for all of us.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so it's like a caution.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh don't get involved with the guys that say that kind of stuff.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, sorry, second question.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, sorry, last one.
• 54:47
  unknown: Um when he's talking about like the trumpets and all that kind of stuff, right?
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: What are we supposed like what is he talking about there, and then what are we supposed to know that he's talking about there when he's talking about trumpet sounding?
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think the kind of the idea of a herald of of when um when a king comes into a city, there would be some kind of music, there would be some kind of and you'd hear, and probably the the the musical instrument that carried the furthest would be the trumpet, kind of, and you and you'd hear the approaching of a king coming in victory, coming to to claim his throne.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there would be music there, and and partly within that there may be kind of trumpet.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: So so it was probably that kind of uh so it's pictorial language.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh he's talking about Jesus returning as king to be rightfully king of the of this world, that there'll be that last trumpet will sound uh as King Jesus comes uh to his rightful place.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_04: Folks I yes, yeah.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_02: For other people, it's just uh wishful thinking, whereas we know because Jesus went through death and out the other side and came back to tell us, we we we have a certainty that actually this is what he's the first reader, what's gonna happen.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: I realize we we've we've we're running out to we try in order to try to finish by quarter past.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_02: We may be sorry, my fault for talking a bit too long.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um if we go till 20 past, is that okay?
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: If you need to leave, please, please do.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh do you want to go now?
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_02: Is that okay?
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was gonna do a little question for the group, but but probably if I'm gonna be very brief, but you can't okay.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_02: Why not have just with people near you say what's blown your mind or what's encouraged you, or what didn't you know before that you found out this evening?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um we've come to the end of this letter, and so I am just gonna be really brief and uh just uh give us some a few brief thoughts as we wrap up this big and complicated letter.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when you're in church on a Sunday, when you're in your church gathering and you're surrounded by people, do you take a moment sometimes to look at the people that are around you?
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a look at their faces ever and remember how precious they are and how precious it is to be part of this strange and wonderful thing called the church?
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: I do that sometimes when I'm in there on a Sunday, sometimes very deliberately, especially when we're standing to worship.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I will take a minute to not look away from what's happening at the front and just look around me at the other people around me there who are worshiping.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_00: There are people there that I know really well, that I've known for years, that have journeyed with me through lots of the ups and downs.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: People that I know are there who are carrying their own troubles and burdens and illnesses, who it's been really hard for them to even get to church that day.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: People that I don't know, faces I don't recognise, and I wonder what their stories are.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's a room full of um joys and sorrows, as life is.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I like to look around to remember that I'm not there on my own to just worship on my own.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm part of this body of believers.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you were here last week, Aaron uh was talking about the body, and uh he's very good with words, and he said a sentence that really stuck with me.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: He said, The day we said we were we were Christians is the day we had to give up joy and suffering in isolation.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Paul has had some really hard and direct words to share with the church in Corinth.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, as we've said, they're they're in a bit of a mess in some ways.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's disunity, there's um their meetings are sometimes disorderly and chaotic, they're causing harm to one another in some instances.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: They're trying to work out what it looks like to follow Jesus in these really early years of the church.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things that I always really love about this letter is that despite all of that, Paul really loves them and he wants to encourage this church to keep going.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um chapter 16 is quite a typical ending to one of Paul's letters in some ways.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's full of greetings and little bits of information that he wants to hand on and saying hello from Priscilla and Aquila and that sort of thing.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: But in the in the middle of um in the middle of this chapter, these verses, it's as if Paul sort of remembers that this is what he really wants to leave with them before he finishes.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: He says, Be on your guard, stand firm in the faith, be courageous, be strong, do everything in love.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: He wants them to have courage, he wants them to persevere.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't want them to give up.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't a sort of grit your teeth and and get on with it idea.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: He he knows that they do this with the strength that Jesus alone gives that comes through his spirit.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he ends up by by reminding them to do everything in love and also of his own love to them.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is the the final words of the book.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: My love to all of you in Christ Jesus.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't a quick sort of lots of loved Paul sort of phrase that we might put at the end of a letter or a put on a card.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is that love that that George has been talking about this evening.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_00: He wants them to keep going because he loves them, and he loves them because he knows that Jesus loves them.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: They are messy and they're troublesome, but as he said back in chapter one, they are the church of God in Corinth, sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_00: So he looks at them with these eyes of love, and that's why he's writing this letter, I think.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're next in your church community in a gathering on a Sunday, have a look around you.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: And are you looking at those people with those eyes of love?
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_00: Remind yourself of what an extraordinary blessing it is to have been brought into this family with all its complexities and difficulties and challenges.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to finish this letter, finish our our discussions on this letter really by by encouraging you to treasure the church, just like Paul treasured the church in Corinth.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just gonna pray for us, is that okay?
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just pray.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: Lord, we thank you for this letter, we thank you for what we've been able to learn from it over the past few weeks, and we pray for all the different churches and congregations that are represented in this room tonight.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_00: That Lord, you would help us to pursue unity, that you would help us to do everything in love, that you would help us to treasure one another and to treasure this amazing family that you have brought us into.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: We thank you, Lord Jesus, for um yeah, calling us to be the church, to be your church, to be your holy people.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: What a blessing that is.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: And we thank you for that.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_00: In your name.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much, Catherine.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, a big thank you to Joel, Janta, and to Catherine for uh for sharing this evening.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um and um yeah, I hope you've enjoyed Bible school.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: This is our last one.
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um I will send the inevitable evaluation question to you, and I know nobody likes doing them, but if you happen to see it in your room box and you've got five minutes, any comments or reflections back would be really helpful.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um so our next Bible school is Autumn Bible School, and um that is quite close by.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so that's gonna be in on the 29th of September, and then the first three Tuesdays in October.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um we're gonna book at the book of Exodus, so we're gonna explore the book of Exodus.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_02: So uh if you'd like to do an Old Testament book um next time, uh that's gonna be on the 29th, uh, so and then every every Tuesday in October up until after.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh so yeah, thank you so much, and um yeah, I hope uh when you get to read 1 Corinthians, some of those things will be helpful uh to you as you go out.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_02: Enjoy the next week.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.