Latest / 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project / Michael Osborne: The Story Is Never Finished | 100 Stories Ep. 10
Transcript
- Paige Williams: Welcome to 100 Stories, the Narrative Intelligence Project. I'm your host, Paige Williams. I am interviewing 100 thinkers, creators, leaders, researchers, teachers, people whose lives have been shaped by profound change and understand that shift. Together, we are exploring. A question at the center of how we become who we are, how malleable are the stories that we live by, and what does it take to change one? Across these conversations, we are examining the stories we inherit, the stories that become identity, and the human capacities that allow us to recognize, question, revise, and live beyond those stories. This is one hundred stories. Today we are speaking with Michael Osborne. Michael is an award winning podcast producer and runs a production studio for people to develop and grow their shows. He is the host of Famous Engravy, which is a dead celebrity podcast where we ask what can a life story show us about ourselves? Michael has created three original shows that have all attracted major media distribution. Michael has listened and recorded thousands of people's stories. And he doesn't just listen to story 15 hours of tape a week. He is pulling out the meaning from stories and the gems from the storytelling. So, Michael, welcome to the show. I'm so excited for this conversation. It's gonna be awesome. Michael: Thanks for inviting me, Paige. It's great to be here. Paige Williams: tell me about the work that has most shaped how you see yourself and the world. Michael: you know, I I I have really found myself in podcasting. I was an early adopter of the medium. I came to it in two thousand five during the first wave of shows and then I started creating shows around two thousand ten, two thousand eleven. not as a point of comparison or anything, but I have Loved everything about what a podcast is and can be, kind of from the get go. I think because we are humans and we're hardwired for story, which I have to say, I am really interested in exploring this idea of narrative intelligence Paige Williams: Tell me about how this work of being a podcaster for 21 years has shaped who you are and how you see the world. I mean, you've listened to thousands of stories. This is right up narrative intelligence alley. Michael: probably the best answer I have for that is the wonderful thing about working in storytelling and working in production and working in podcasting is that I am reminded so often of how little I know. Paige Williams: Ooh. Michael: you ask how it shapes me. It it shapes me because every show, every episode is a window into somebody else's mind, into somebody else's experiences. And you know, it's a big complicated, crowded world out there. and I need to get out of my head as often as possible. Podcasts help me do that. that's one of the things they do for me. And I I'd I'd like to think that I hope I'm bringing an attitude of curiosity and learning to every thing I listen to. So if you if you're asking me how has this work shaped me, I think it has helped me build a regular practice of staying curious and nurturing my own curiosity, which a on some level is self serving, but it's also incredibly validating. Paige Williams: That's awesome. Michael: once upon a time I was working on a PhD in climate science at Stanford. And w every time I say Stanford PhD, I I to this day I still feel kinda funny about it because anybody who knew me growing up knew me as a rebellious teenager who got into a lot of trouble, who there's not anybody whose jaw didn't hit the ground when they learned I got into Stanford, including me. When I was working on this degree, I had a terrible case of imposter syndrome. I I remember showing up on that campus and thinking, wow, I I don't belong here. and I spent many years struggling to sort of make progress in my degree. And one day kind of the last stop before the therapist's office. I went by the career development center at Stanford and I wandered into this woman's office. Her name is Diane and she said, have a seat. Tell me what's going on. I was at a real low point in my life and I, you know, I kind of just unloaded on Diane. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't feel like I belong at this university. I don't not sure if I want to be an academic. Climate change is a very depressing topic and I'm I'm just very, very lost. And she said, out of nowhere, kind of unprompted, have you ever thought about starting a podcast? And it was, I swear it felt I I look at that moment now, Paige, as divine intervention, which I know is a a lot to talk it up, but but it did feel like that. It was such an inspired idea from this woman who I'd never met before. And, you know, I said, podcast, I mean I I love podcasts. Where's this you know, say more. And she said, Well, you obviously have a lot to say. and you seem to have a resonant voice. And I think you need a creative outlet. I think that you are way too close to the books and way too close to academic research. And you have got to figure out a way to exercise different parts of your mind, different parts of your brain. I think you should start think about starting a podcast. walked out of that office just with this bolt of jolt of inspiration, right? I just I was like, that would be awesome. I could do this. I ended up coming up with an idea. I ended up teaching it as a class where I had had students participate. So was a project based course. And I kind of incubated an idea for a podcast as a as a teacher inside a classroom. And we really developed it in that class and we released it about a year later and that really began my journey as a podcast host and creator. what it unlocked, I don't think I could do it justice, Paige, but one thing was that I discovered I needed community, I need people. I also discovered I'm somebody who learns through dialogue that I do like to read and I think of myself as a, you know, fairly intellectual person. But I ideas need to be spoken aloud and hashed out. And one thing I love, love, love and has always loved about podcasting is is the way that you invite people into your inner dialogue and that you are trying to sort out, you know, your own thinking in community, in collaboration. So that initial show gave me that opportunity and set me on a course that I've been on ever since. Paige Williams: Yeah, that's awesome. What do you think happens to us, to the human brain, when we express what we're thinking and hash it out through dialogue? Why is that so important for us? Michael: Yeah, I mean I have really come around to the idea I was thinking before this interview, because this whole idea of narrative intelligence and your show is has me thinking in a lot of directions, and I was I was meditating on it a little bit this morning. That I think we misuse the word ego a lot, that when I say, that's my ego talking, most people interpret that as like your ego is talking you up. But my ego also talks me down, right? And my ego is not always telling me how great I am. Sometimes it is. and but it's just as often telling me, you know, what a what a pie piece of dirt I am. but the thing that it is always doing is it it is only concerned with me. it's only concerned with my selfish interest and my self-narrative, my autobiography. I think what happens to answer your question when we are sharing our ideas with somebody else is we're checking the truth of that story. And that story is always incomplete. It is always misaligned and wrong in some places. Not that it doesn't have some truth to it, but whatever story the ego is writing is not the whole story. It may not be the best story. It may not be the truest story. And We need others who are observing us and observing our behavior and evaluating our humanity to tell us what's true and what's not about ourselves. Paige Williams: Yeah, I have been thinking deeply about, okay, if narrative intelligence is the ability to recognize that we're living within a story and change it, whether it's an individual, a community, a group, a corporation, and understanding that we're under narrative structures of culture, identity, etc., how do we know? When and if a story is true, especially about ourselves, because I'm only looking through my lens. I'm like, this is the story of Paige. This is the story of Michael Osborne walking devastated in Stanford about climate science. And he sits down with Diane and she said, you should do a podcast. Like, what story would Diane tell? And where's the truth? And how do we understand it? Michael: Great question. I think the pursuit of some form of truth, whatever that means, is probably a worthwhile and noble pursuit. It's a little bit analogous to the idea of objectivity. That, you know, journalists and scientists are striving for that elusive ideal that they call objectivity. if I'm trying to get at the truth of myself or anybody else, that it should have some balance and some humility and some context. should not all be up to me, you know, and the less it's all up to Paige Williams: Yeah. Michael: me, the the more others are helping me to understand the story of myself and hopefully understand themselves through that, the better. Paige Williams: you and I both have advisors and spiritual advisors and people we work with and you know, when we look at an honest self appraisal of ourselves and just take stock. Like, where am I at? Where am I responsible? Where do I need to clean up something? I can't do that work alone. Michael: Yeah. I and where am I doing good? I I you know, where Paige Williams: Yes. Michael: this is where I fall short. I it has been made very clear to me really in the last several years, but I'd say particularly in the last several months. I have no shortage of people in my life who are like, dude, you are way too hard on yourself. You are really beating the hell out of yourself. And I finally decided a few months ago, I need to take that feedback seriously. I am somehow something is blocking me. from seeing the the good side of the ledger as well and which is not to say that there's Paige Williams: Yeah. Michael: not plenty to look at that needs correction or amending or, you know, a better version, but but it's it's way easier for me to beat up on myself than it is for me to talk myself up. Paige Williams: my God, me too. I'm so glad you said that because, you know, I've been taught and trained. Look at your side. And then I forget the good side of the ledger. And that's why I need those people in my life. I'm glad you have them too. God, that's good, Michael. when you write yourself a permission slip that says, Hey, you can take your foot off your neck and you can, you know, appreciate the good that you're doing, what does that do for you? Michael: gosh, I gotta take that in for a second. Th the first thing it does is connect me with others. The better version of me is always one that is a channel that is somehow g giving back all that I'm receiving. so there is a opening up that happens if I take it a little bit easier on on myself. And it's not just like it's it's not as simple as me giving myself the instructions, Michael, take your, you know, foot off your neck. and quit. or set the bat down or whatever. I think it has to go a step beyond that. I need people to point out how I can be helpful and how I might have helped them. but but when that feels like that's actually happening, there's a lightness that I think is in my heart. I think that there's a fleeting sense of greater purpose. And I say fleeting because like I can feel it for a minute and then it goes away. You know, most feelings go away. and that's one that goes away. But in the better moments that's what I think it feels like. Paige Williams: Can we talk about false humility? Michael: Sure. Paige Williams: What story have you lived? Last 20, 25 years around humility, false humility, and the ego. We were talking a little bit about this before we rolled tape. And I was saying that, I grew up in a society that taught me that women can't be spiritual leaders, they really shouldn't take the microphone. that humility was a virtue that would help me grow spiritually. And I had to unlearn. that in order to come in front of the camera, put a microphone in front of my mouth, It took a lot of recognizing an old narrative that was no longer serving me that I had to outgrow in order to do the work. Do you feel that in your work and like balancing humility as well as being a public person in podcasting? Michael: I struggle with this, you know. and I like the term false humility. I was Paige Williams: Yeah. Michael: working with somebody who who I think was really important for his story, Corey Best, who you know, kind of helped Matt see some of his I don't know, some of where he was at once upon a time. And I was on a meeting with Corey and Matt one time and I was talking about exactly this, this, how much I can beat myself up. And one thing Corey said is if you're if you're up against that, stop and ask yourself the question, Who told you that story? How'd it get in there? How'd that voice get in there in the first place? I've really been thinking about that ever since. This is several years ago. I don't know where these voices of self doubt have come in. And I do think that the flip side of of some of that self-judgment can be false humility. I so maybe where I'm going with that idea is a a kind of question of you where and how do I experience validation? Whose validation am I seeking? Whose approval am I seeking in order to, you know, be able to call myself successful? you asked a question a minute ago that I really appreciate. What does it feel like when you feel like you're in that better place? there really is no word for it other than intuition for me. That there is something in my heart that That feels meaning, that feels purpose, that feels direction. Paige Williams: I love what Corey Best said. who taught you this story? Where'd that come from? And I had to do a lot of that work in order to be in front and with you today. But what's so beautiful about it is what you said before that it's about connection. and dialogue and getting out what's in my head so that I'm just not living with myself. it's a phenomenal thing. And so maybe the the cure to my false humility is connection. And as long as it's doing that and my creative project is hitting that on the head and it's giving me a sense of joy and it's maybe Michael: Yeah. Paige Williams: of love and service to someone, then it's it's aligned action. Michael: That's the right direction. Yeah. I sometimes think about denial, self delusion, Paige Williams: Yeah. Michael: and how I have at times in my life had a story in my head about who I am and what I'm about and what I represent that does not line up with my behavior and my actions and that I have a that this is what the ego does. It tells a an incomplete, inaccurate, maybe you know, flat out false story. and that and that's what denial is. w the reason I need other people is because I do need others to observe my behavior and what they see whether the version I have in my mind is true or not. it's amazing that I can't see that more clearly or more I but I don't know. We wanna hide from ourselves, right? We wanna hide from our fears, we wanna hide from our resentments, we wanna pretend that's not who we are and that's not how we feel. We have shame, guilt, maybe, whatever it. You know, there's there's a lot of emotions that come up in human experience that we try to hide from. And and this is where community and connection comes into play for me. I'm just not the best arbiter of my own story. Paige Williams: Okay, so you've listened to thousands of people's stories. After hearing so many people tell you their stories and you asking questions about their stories and looking at the stories of dead celebrities and what we might learn from a life lived, what have you learned about being human? Michael: think number one is we're all on a quest for love, I think. And when I say love I don't mean romantic love. I mean love more in that sense of validation. We we want to be seen, but we also I think learn at a very young age what love is, or we develop ideas at a young age about what love is. And those can really set us on a course that we don't all share that same language. We don't always experience and we don't all see and experience love the same way. And I do think on the other side of that is fear and the power of fear. And I think that you can never underestimate what a primary driving force that is to explain a tremendous amount of human behavior. There's something I learned you know, in in a spiritual program about the connection between fear and resentment. I've committed this to memory because I've always loved it. I heard somebody say once, fear is me not getting my way in the future. Anger is me not getting my way in the present and resentment is me not getting my way in the past. And what's powerful about that for me is that helps me explain the common denominator of how fears become resentments. And resentment for me is a big category. That includes anger, that includes rage, that includes f sadness, that includes frustration. at the heart of it is I wanted to get my way in some way and I didn't, you know. But knowing that that comes ultimately from a position of fear is I think really, really important because I do think fears never go away. I think the human condition as I understand it is one where fear is essentially an infinite well. it is in us all the time and it's gonna show up and it often comes out sideways and it often comes out externally in ways that are not obviously about fear. to your question about what have I learned from other people's stories, I think that that drives a lot of our behavior. I think that there's a lot of different ways fear and resentment present. And I also have come to believe that the more you attend to the inevitable fears in your life, the more you do make space for love and for gratitude. and for connection in in ways you couldn't have anticipated before. if I take that blueprint of how I think humanity works, I feel like I can understand most stories better if if I ask those questions. What is the fear here? Why is this person seeking love? Paige Williams: Okay, let me ask you this. Love your breakdown of fear leading to resentment, past, present, future, and connection to love, its opposite. Let's put it in the context of narrative intelligence. Let's just have a dialogue about, okay. What does narrative intelligence have to do with fear and love, which is the human condition that you identified through listening to so many people's stories? Michael: so I love the phrase narrative intelligence. When I first read it on your show, I don't think I'd ever seen it before. And so, Paige Williams: Yeah. Michael: you know, I'm happy to like tell you my reaction to it or what I thought it meant, and maybe we Paige Williams: Please. Michael: can go from there. Yeah, I mean, the first thing I saw on it is the fundamental truth that we are a storytelling species. And and that is so much of what what we're Doing all the time. We're telling a story about ourselves, we're telling us stories about others, about the world around us, you know, the things we can explain, the things we don't. And I I had a friend say, the scene he painted was two high school girls going like and he was all and she was all and he was all he was like doing a funny voice around it. Is like they're telling a story right there. everybody is telling stories all the time. you add the word intelligence onto that. my mind goes a few different directions. One thing I've learned through Famous Engravy that's been really exciting and really gratifying is that so w it's celebrity biographies, right? On every episode we choose a dead celebrity and We are interested in that question. What does this life story show us about ourselves? the truth of the matter is we use celebrities because it's kind of convenient. Their stories are public, their lives are well documented. You got a lot of information to work with when when telling that story. And as soon as you get into the research, you can always find out things about people that you didn't know before that begin to paint a more three dimension dimensional picture. Part of what I hear and and see in the idea of narrative intelligence is that that's available to everybody. That all of our lives are complex and filled with details that nobody else knows anything about. And if you had those details and those bits of information, it might change how you interpret the story. that's kind of what I hear in narrative intelligence, is that our story. our stories as individuals, our biographies are open to interpretation always. But then I think you can also scale that up. I think that's true for institutions. I think that's true for countries. I think that's true for cultures. I think that you know it it it gets to the earlier point about that elusive standard of objectivity and truth. That that there is, you know, never enough information to have a full and complete story, but that the there's room for debate and dialogue in that. I I find that exciting and that's what I hear in the term narrative intelligence. it's a learning journey. Paige Williams: There's so much gold in there, Michael. So much gold. things that when you were talking, I wrote down because it made me more deeply curious. so you said, you know, we're humans are narrative machines, or I can't remember the exact words, but I'm like we're like meaning Michael: No, that's a good way of putting it. Narrative machines. Yeah. Yeah. Paige Williams: making masters. Michael: Yes. Paige Williams: yes, we are always telling stories. Why? Because we want to make sense of our world, we wanna make meaning. and so that made me want to ask you, who's your favorite dead celebrity story? Michael: wow. that's a tough one. I mean, because they've all shown me different things that I didn't expect going in. Maya Angelou's up there. just one that changed me I think a common theme of the show and I think is also part of this narrative intelligence question is the creative journey and the idea that creativity is there I always mangle this quote, but what is it, the soul's expression or or something like that? That when Diane told me years ago you need a creative outlet, I don't know where she got that idea from. I've tried to thank her every occasion I've gotten ever since, but but there there was something, there was an idea, there was a story inside that wasn't finding an expression. And and art helps us find those expressions. That's a common theme on famous engravy. that, you know, whether it's music or acting or writing or directing or well sports, I mean that that part of how we how we understand ourselves is through storytelling. And that has a tight connection with creativity as we understand it and finding our the creative modality that works the best for us. so all you know, all of those episodes have in some ways changed me. Paige Williams: one thing I think about too when when you were going through narrative intelligence was you talked about narrative and you said, and then we put intelligence on it. What does that mean? And I always think about the multiple intelligences, right? And intelligence is something that we can increase. And so If we understand narrative and we're all living within a narrative and we're building the field of narrative intelligence so that people even come to grasp this concept, then we have a place where we can go up, like emotional intelligence. And so I created Michael: Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: this assessment to tell you kind of where you are. I'm the assessment isn't nailed down, like it's a just like this. hundred stories, it's a inquiry right now to see w what needs to change, how it needs to shape. Because my life, in my experience, can't have a transformation story until I realize that I'm living from a story that needs to change. And from there Michael: God. Paige Williams: I can grow. you're my tenth interview out of a hundred. I have learned so much listening to ten people talk to me about what they think narrative intelligence is. So I feel like my narrative intelligence has gone up just listening to your story. Michael: have you ever sort of nerded out on story structure and sort of conventions and stuff one of my favorite adages about storytelling is The idea that in great stories there's this notion that you have unpredictability coupled with inevitability, that you don't know where a story is going, but that once once the big reveal happens or a big reveal happens, you're like, of course it had to go, it's all clicking into place now. And I think part of, you know, you said it earlier, part of why we tell stories and why we seek them is meaning making, is understanding the world. things click into place. one thing about podcasts is you can look at every category, every kind of creator, every concept, every show, whether it's a narrative or an interview show or you know something in between. And every podcast has three core elements that make it successful: story, learning, and hangout space. hangout space being the vibe, the parasocial relationship with the host. The story and the learning piece are really I think close together though, right? That what story does is educate us. And so I I hear that idea in narrative intelligence. And to hear you talk about it, it feels like what is intelligence? why do these words work together in my mind when you put them together? I feel like it it's storytelling with a intention with a greater, richer understanding of things that are otherwise mysterious. And they may be mechanical, they may be cosmological, they may be philosophical. it could be a lot of different payoffs for that reveal. I think that what resonates about this idea of narrative intelligence is that the better the story, the bigger the learning payoff, or at least that's that's what I wanna read into the term. Paige Williams: Okay, as a podcast producer, both helping people create their shows and grow them, and then doing your own shows that have distribution, what are you looking for? What makes a good story? Michael: I do produce audio and video, but one thing I love about audio is that I I think that there's something about the human ear that is a finely tuned BS detector that we can tell when somebody's full of it, when we're listening to, or we can like hang on somebody's every word. my job ultimately, the most important thing I do for a client or for anybody else is be a good listener. And be a an attentive listener and pay attention to my own my own listening experience. Is something holding my attention? That's worth paying attention to. Do I feel like I'm in good hands? Is somebody leading me somewhere that I they're signposting along the way and telling me where we're gonna go? and then this idea that we keep coming back to, you know, does it feel authentic? Does it feel true and real? a lot of the way I try to evaluate somebody's ideas, their show, when I'm producing content is to is to really be attentive to those kinds of things. what is my reaction as somebody's talking and telling whatever story they're trying to tell? Paige Williams: What your responsibility as a podcast producer in the telling of the person's story? Like in the editing, in the music, in the pieces that you leave on the floor and the pieces that you keep in? Michael: I wanna say accuracy, but that is n i that's an incomplete description. I see my job, my obligation as always okay, somebody hires me and and if they're paying me to produce their podcast, I have a, you know, financial obligation to do good. do right by them. But I actually wanna say my first obligation is to their audience, not to them. that what I see happening with a lot of podcast hosts and a lot of podcast creators and and interviewers overall is, you know, they can they can get really excited about their idea and they should be. They need to be close to it. They need to have proximity and passion for where they want to take this. But it's not always clear that that is coming through to their audience, to the people who they want to reach. there's almost always a gap between the story you think you're telling and the story you're actually telling, right? That this is Kind of a theme of this whole conversation, I think, is Paige Williams: Yeah. Michael: that there's often that disconnect between that that we just don't see it perfectly. Paige Williams: You are shepherding what I heard you just say, We all have a deep emotional need to make sense and meaning. And you're the person seeing that all the way through. Michael: I hope so. That's what I'm trying. I mean, that's the ideal. is to Paige Williams: Yeah. That's a calling. That's a calling. Michael: the joke I make, and I've said this to Diane, the woman who helped put me on this journey, is I got into podcasting 'cause I like talking and much to my chagrin, I discovered it's about listening. being a better listener is one of those things that is never done. what does it even mean to be a great listener? I mean I think I've tried to speak to it a little bit earlier, but that's something that is a lifelong project and the more I'm aiming for that, the more I'm setting that as an ideal I'm trying to reach. Like It brings out the good side of me. It opens me up to other people and other ways of thinking that I might not have considered before. Paige Williams: So if you got to create the definition of narrative intelligence, what would you say it means? What what's the definition, Michael? Michael: over the course of the conversation we've put together some key pieces for it. if I were to develop a working definition of narrative intelligence, I think it would be A journey to understand the stories that help us make sense of both ourselves and the world while recognizing that those stories are always subject to new events, new information, and most importantly, new interpretation. you know, stories are what organize us as individuals and as people, but stories are also what organize us as as cultures and as societies and as nation states. and that Just because those stories f feel deep and immutable, no story is immutable. So the intelligence part of it is is recognizing that the the storytelling work there is never done and that there's always opportunity to adjust, change, or start with a whole new script. Paige Williams: we're gonna develop our narrative intelligence. In the definition, that beautiful definition you just gave us, what is required for us to be able to do that? Here's why I'm asking you. You've heard thousands of transformation stories. You've lived your own transformation stories. Diane is an example of a transformation moment in your life. What was required for you to receive information, hear something, and then change your story or rewrite it? Michael: Somehow what is required is that people are one shown the inevitable truth of themselves and two are are able to look at it, are able to see it. I think that it's a lot, lot, lot, lot, lot easier said than done. the ego is always working to defend itself and that never underestimate the power of denial and our unwillingness to see the truth of ourselves. Sometimes circumstances show it to us in a way where you know there's nowhere left to go. sometimes we arrive at those revelations through unexpected means. It does feel like a prerequisite for developing narrative intelligence, at least within a within a an individual, within a human. if you want to talk about what that means to scale it up, it's people who have had those kinds of experiences, sharing notes about it and saying how they came to understand a certain level of truth that they didn't see before. and I think that happens a lot. I mean, I think that what stories organize us as people, but they also organize us as communities and as culture. Part of the reason I enjoy the Dead Celebrity Show, Famous Engravy, is because they're often is the case that people who are famous have a story that is representative of a fandom. It's representative of something shared that people see themselves in. That's why we ask that question. What is this? story show us about ourselves. It's the notion that celebrity is mirror. I think it's always worth asking the question, why does a song succeed? Why does a movie succeed? Why does a politician succeed? Why does a novel succeed? What is it about this story that organizes things for And that leads us to these inevitable truths that we may not even see until we like break it down and talk about it, but that are somehow, you know, intuitively where we're at at any given moment. Paige Williams: that made me think of as like identification. Yeah. Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I totally, Paige, and I think that's often subconscious. You know, sometimes we respond and we don't even know why we're responding. Paige Williams: you're cutting, you're editing as a podcast producer so that the end audience identifies with the story in the best way possible. Michael: when you asked me a moment ago what how had I define narrative intelligence, I wanted to kind of underline that idea of open to interpretation. because I to me that's where a lot of the learning happens. It is in the dialogue and it is the is you know, what are the elements of somebody's journey or somebody's story that we're responding to where we do see ourselves. I mean, the best stories often, you know, have a sort of like a lot of metaphorical possibility, I guess, right? That they that there's more than Paige Williams: Yeah. Michael: one way we might take it in. you know, you could think of like we're talking about the hero's journey. Think about Star Wars, right? there's a lot of different reasons we respond to metaphorical possibility. I never used that phrase before, but sounds good, so I'll run with it. Paige Williams: Love that. Metaphorical possibility. I have one final question for you. what did you learn from Maya Angelou and why was she one of your favorite stories that you riffed on? Michael: A recurring theme of famous engravy, it's a pattern that shows up a lot, but often our greatest weaknesses or points of pain become our greatest sources of strength. the idea that the things that caused us pain or the reactions we had to adversity may turn out to be our superpowers. I love that because it to me speaks to catharsis and release and possibility through creativity. the Maya Angelou story really brought that one home. Paige Williams: Michael, thank you. I really appreciate your experience and your time and sharing all of this with us. It's been awesome. I have so many more questions, but whew, more will be revealed. Michael: it's my honor, Paige. And let me just say, I'm really excited for you. I think you are on to something really awesome with this idea. I love the possibilities of where you can go with it. there's an infinite well here of places where you could take it. So thank you for inviting me on and and best of luck with everything you're working on. Paige Williams: Thank you. Thanks for joining us. Wow, this conversation about narrative intelligence really helped me shape the field. Michael helped me see how much our stories need other people. We are constantly making meaning from our own lives, but we're not always the best arbiters of our own story. Listening, dialogue, and relationship can reveal what we cannot see inside our own perspective. I also absolutely loved Michael's definition of narrative intelligence. It's an ongoing journey of understanding the stories that help us make sense of ourselves and of the world while remembering that those stories remain open to new events. They open remain open to new information, new interpretation. Maybe intelligence is partly the humility to know that the story is never completely finished. Now I want to invite you into your own inquiry. What's your narrative intelligence? You can take the assessment at storykeys.co and subscribe to 100 Stories, the Narrative Intelligence Project, wherever you listen or watch. Tell your friends. If you like this podcast, comment, rate. It really helps us get the word out. Michael, thank you so much for sharing your experience and your hope with us today.