Latest / Nurtural Disasters / Is it Autism or Narcissism?
Transcript
- Ken: Welcome to Nurtural Disasters with Ken and Lisa. Welcome to the next episode! How are you Lisa? Lisa: Hello and welcome to Nurtural Disasters. This is a podcast for those of us with toxic or emotionally immature parents. might not have a bunch of credentials next to our names, but we do have PhDs from the Hard Knocks University. Basically, want this to be a validating space for adult children of parents who had no business having children. I think I'm okay. I mean, it's funny because I had an outline for this particular episode, but then, had an old boss me a message on Instagram and said, oh, I listened to all your podcast episodes. And I said, oh, really? Oh, okay. Cause I never told him to listen. You know, it's one of those things I just posted on Instagram and I just... I just assume nobody listens, they just kind of click through or people go like, okay, you know, she's a close enough friend or I'm like, I'm doing her a favor. But he basically said, I finished all the episodes. It made me feel good that I had a heart to heart with my kids a few years ago about their childhoods and any issues they may have had with me. And I apologize for any hurt that I may have caused them and made a relationship better for sure. And that's really cool because I wrote back, you know, I'm so glad you really got something out of it. And fact that he listened to it, not just listen to it, that he was able to get something out of it and realize, you know, all parents make mistakes. But the fact that adulthood. If you don't acknowledge it and you keep doubling down and making the same mistakes, that's when estrangement occurs. up to the parents to create that bond, in my opinion anyway. ⁓ just my anecdotal experience. Ken: you want to add? Lisa: No. It's interesting because it reminded me of My dad years ago, he He apologized for... told me, you know, I'm sorry because... ⁓ before your mom and I divorced... Even before then, I still acted very selfishly. a lot to me because since then were able to mend a relationship. Before that, it was a lot more tenuous. So him to recognize that... I actually told my that, that he said that. And she at the time that she was my therapist at the time. And when I told her that I started like getting teary eyed and she's like, I could tell that meant a lot to you and your voice was cracking and I could tell. And she looked like she was getting, she was tearing up herself. So I could tell like it affected her. You know, when someone cries and you, ⁓ can't help but cry because it's ⁓ when it's a genuine cry, not like a fake cry. So it was that thing, I don't know what his relationship with his daughters were and I actually met his daughters because they would come into the office. And they seemed really cool, but I don't know what the dynamic was and the fact that he said, if there was anything that I did, I'm so sorry. And having that heart to heart, he their relationship's gotten better. ⁓ That not surprise me. And... Anything you want to add, Ken? Ken: really think it's great that found someone that know to have situation, especially with it being on the other end, that they're the parent and they're trying to mend or fix the issues that he has with his kids. Honestly, you're like between you and me, if our parents did that like your dad did for you, that's huge for the kid. That's pretty much like hitting a home run right there. Having your parents actually acknowledge that, hey, I screwed up, I'm so sorry. It seems like such a little thing, right? ⁓ It's not, it's takes, on the most part, we don't even get that. That's what makes it so frustrating. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: that the parent doesn't even like, well, I did what I could. Are you gonna apologize? No, why should I? And that's usually what we get. So to have your old coworker tell you that, that they're actually listening, actually engaging and actually knowing what we're talking about and actually applying it in his life, that's huge. Yeah, cause... It almost makes us feel proud that we're actually recording this, right? There's a breakthrough there and someone actually told us. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: That's amazing. I can't put it into words you told me that just before the show, ⁓ who person was. I think that's ⁓ absolutely amazing. even if we don't get a huge audience, feel like that's, ⁓ we keep these stories left and right ⁓ and people enjoying the podcast. really is helping us, motivating us to keep doing this. Cause it's really enjoyable for us to record this podcast. Lisa: Yeah, just didn't realize how much it would resonate with people. You because to me, I think of like the Dr. Romney level, so wise and in my core, we were just these scumbags, you're just like talking, just talking shit about their parents. But the fact that he was able to say, ⁓ you know. it reminded me of what I did with my kids. But at same I was thinking about you know the saying like all parents make mistakes and people like do as excuse for shitty parents like all parents make mistakes and I just think mistakes ⁓ unintentional you know it's like Oh, I accidentally left the clothes in the dryer. Oh, I... You know what? I forgot to turn off the stove. I forgot to... Whatever. it's intentional, when you intentionally try to hurt your own child, I just don't think the whole like, oh, parents make mistakes. That does not apply. I know that I have this one friend... don't... Okay. hasn't me if it's okay to say this, but her mom always gone, was always at the bar drinking, and left her ⁓ alone with her... left her with her pedophile uncle. ⁓ I guess that the mom's brother. And know, ⁓ she's no contact now, but the fact that like, your mom just made a mistake. Our parents make mistakes. How do you that? How do you explain that? Ken: That's a huge deal and this was something glad you brought that up because this is something that I kind of wanted to talk to you about. I know people personally that have had run-ins with like family members or maybe step parents and they've been involved in you like a sort of assault right and And the thing is, the most hurtful thing for that person is that their family members don't believe them, especially their mom or their dad. And I could just imagine how hard it is and how it messes with you to have a family member assault you and have someone you trust that you think is going to protect you, not believe you and not stand on your side. And I have heard stories of that. It's, it's, are the kinds of things where it really destroys the whole family dynamic. There's usually no coming back from that. terms of mistakes, that's huge mistake. There's mistakes whoopsie, I forgot to do this for my kid. I forgot to pick up my kid after school, or I forgot to enroll my kid in some project, I forgot to get my kid this thing for his birthday. ⁓ A lot of the times those stuff could be mended and a lot of the stuff could be really like squash. If the parents are just like, oops, I screwed up. I'm so sorry. Sometimes sorry is, and acknowledging it is enough. But for like situations like that where it's like, ⁓ yeah, a kid is coming to you and telling you this and you kind of brush it off. I don't think there's any coming back from that. Right? Lisa: No. not. I mean, I fucking hate- just hate the whole like, but they're your so and so, they're your mom, the this. ⁓ It's so hard for to ⁓ imagine a parent actually to inflict pain ⁓ or just not caring where they put you in danger. That it's ⁓ just people can't it that's why they say all these trite things like, all families have problems. ⁓ Ken: Well, it's all these people that are in the periphery, right? Like, they think that they're helping out to solve the family problem by discounting one person's account of the issues. That's not gonna work. Lisa: You know what? That's... Yes. Exactly. Because it's well-intentioned, but I would like, you know toxic positivity bullshit that hear? Like, ⁓ just forgive. not for other person. for you. Ken: Yes. Lisa: And there was, you know, back in a few years ago, there was this whole toxic positivity wave that was coming out. And they're like, I know your your mom exposed you to pedophiles, but just forgive. And know it's well-intentioned, but it pisses off because. it's so fucking dismissive. of everything you went through and it does not hold the perpetrators accountable and it dismissing what you went through. No. Can you imagine if we twisted the narrative and said, you know what, actually, you know what, I'm going to go to your parent and say, why? Why did you do this? Why hold them accountable and twist it? And the thing is, if you hold them accountable, ironically, that would create estrangement, you know? The parent would realize, ⁓ I fucked up. Then I can make amends. But no, what we do is we victim blame and victim shame. Ken: Yeah, and that's a huge big problem with that. It's not holding people accountable. Sometimes brushing it. ⁓ seems like a diplomatic thing to say, right? Just forgive. Just forgive. Forget. Let's get the family back together. No, it's sometimes you have to get to the point where you're like, yeah, we all know what this person did. We all know those this person did. People have to start apologizing for things and actually mean it and actually want to work on things, work on rebuilding the relationship. You can't just forgive without wholeheartedly like not getting what you need out the If you don't get healed, you can't forgive someone. And you usually can't heal or it's harder to heal on a one-way street. It's so much easier if the person participates, the other person that wrong you participates in helping you. So if you have that one part of your life just not want to help, it makes it so much harder. It makes it, I don't think it's even up to you to forgive if that's the case. If someone doesn't even give you like enough, doesn't even give you like a part of themselves to admit that they're wrong or screwed up. What's the point of forgiving them really? it almost gives them the satisfaction that I forgive you. But ⁓ you ⁓ deep inside know that you don't the You're just saying it. So it's just diplomacy. Lisa: Yeah You know what it is? It's like The whole toxic positivity. It's really called forced forgiveness It's kind of like, ⁓ you know when little kids they fight or something and it goes Will you tell the kid say you're sorry? You force them say, say you're sorry. sorry. They're really sorry, but they're just saying it because they're being forced to. It's that level, but in the adult version of that, you know what I mean? Ken: Of course not, they're not sorry. Yeah, because exactly is that analogy you just stated. It's like, just say sorry. So you say sorry, but you don't know what you're sorry for. So what's the point of having the sorry? It's lip service. Doesn't mean anything. Lisa: But just forgive. Okay, I forgive. But yeah, ⁓ you them, internally, you're still feeling that anger of like being exposed to these horrific people, things that you should never, ever had had to deal with as a child. But you're- Ken: Yeah, like you being wrong, Lisa, it's like, ⁓ yeah, they're like, ⁓ yeah, just forgive. Just forgive your mom or your dad for something like that. Lisa: Yeah. Oh, I forgive. And people, do that spiritual bypassing. where it's like, everything's great. You know what? I don't even deal with it. That's bullshit. you know, it's funny. Dr. Anna, she talks about that. Feelings are like a beach ball the water, right? You push it down, you push it down, but eventually It comes right back up. So you're just like, ⁓ no, I forgive and everything's great and you know, I love it. It's gonna come right back up. ⁓ I don't know kind ways, And if there's anything about this podcast that I want to resonate or it sticks with people, stop. Fucking victim blaming and victim shaming it. I fucking hate it stop Like though I'm not to sound like Erica Kirk of like stop, you know that the fake, Bride of Chucky Ken: He's done. Lisa: seen those memes of juxtapose her picture with Bride of Chucky because of this makeup. Ken: Hey, bride Bride of Chucky, less scary than her. the same thing where it's like people tell you take the high road be the person stick out the olive branch. Why? Heck no, I ⁓ it's the bigger person just leaves you to be like angry and kind of like seething like you're shaking the other person's hand I forgive you but secretly inside you're like I hate this motherfucker ⁓ and seething too. You're like it's fake. It doesn't it doesn't heal you inside, right? Lisa: Be the big- be the bigger person. Exactly. It's so fake. And also toxic people people take the high road they love to prod and bait you. They ⁓ loved, they will scream at you like, ⁓ they're not going to scream back. they're going to do everything they every thing to you. And like, ⁓ this person's not retaliate because they're gonna take the high road. Ken: Well in terms of that, tell you this Lisa, I've been watching a lot of those TikTok videos where people do stupid things like pick a fight with people. So been watching a lot and a lot of these guys are influencers on like, it's not even like on TikTok anymore, a lot of it's like on Kik, which is like the more extreme version of Twitch and they're streaming their lives ⁓ and recently saw this one where forgot creator's name, but he was literally hitting on this guy's wife and And was just like hitting on his guy's wife in front of him and the guy was like that that's on the other side He's a bodybuilder. So he's like a big dude. He like double the size this guy and He's like ⁓ keeps goading him like I'm gonna your wife is here for the taking When I'm like and the guy just you know what just try to calm down and when he couldn't anymore, slap the crap out of that kid. And point is do people just think that they could say whatever they want and not have the consequences for it because they're thinking that people will just take it or take the high road, right? They're just going to ignore them. And there are going to be people out there that are just like, they're going to be okay with it, right? They're just be like, oh man, I'll brush it to the side. I'm not going to start a fight right now. It's not that kind of thing. And eventually they're going to hit someone where it's like, that fool out. And this is pretty much what it is, right? Eventually, you keep being that toxic person and eventually you're gonna run into someone that's not gonna take it anymore. It might not be today, it might not be tomorrow, it might not be the fifth person or the 10th person, but that 11th person is gonna knock you out. And that's really what it is. There's too many people that have that kind of like toxicity that don't think that they're gonna get a payback one day. And the thing is, even if you don't believe in karma, you should believe in like a balance of the universe of people getting what's coming to them. It might not be today, it might not be tomorrow. It's gonna happen because things have consequences. And these toxic people, realize that consequences, ⁓ gonna come for them, but they don't care? Is that what it is? I don't even know. What's to be like meeting these people guys like, I don't wanna take the higher road. I wanna get into the gutter with this person. Don't you feel that way? Lisa: ⁓ yeah. thing about bullies is that they like to pick on someone who they think is not gonna fight back. So when you fight back, they're not expecting it. The only way to beat a bully is another bully. And I've said this about It's like the only person who can beat a narcissist ⁓ their manipulation and their gaslighting all this shit is a sociopath. And I've this before and I've thought it, the only one could beat a sociopath, probably a psychopath. So. It takes someone above them or maybe at their... their level beat them. Ken: So I'm thinking, yeah, it's like, even think so. Like if you're a narcissist, there might be someone that's a bigger narcissist than you or a different type of narcissist that's gonna like outdo you. ⁓ the way, no matter how you are thinking you're in control of something or like the top of whatever thing you're doing, there's gonna be someone out there that's like, ⁓ yeah, slightly better than you are. So do be aware of that. ⁓ your powers don't work on them. So always keep that in mind. mean like master manipulators are gonna run into someone that, yeah, can't manipulate me because I don't have a stake in this. Then everything falls apart. Because the thing that narcissists hate the most, right? Someone they can't control, right? Someone they can't gaslight. Someone just like, you know what, I have no emotion. Lisa: Yeah You know what? That's the thing there's this narcissist on TikTok Instagram, He basically said Yet they hate someone they can't manipulate but Not only do not hate them. Well, ⁓ they also but respect them That's the thing. They respect people they can't manipulate and control Ken: must a thing where it's like, my powers work on this person. Interesting. Lisa: But they respect them. So the people they manipulate, think, you're a fucking idiot. You are ⁓ a fucking gullible piece of shit. they can't control, they them, but they also respect them, ⁓ Ken: respect is also from ⁓ place of fear too, right? And like, it's a threat. That person's a threat because it doesn't work on them. So it's much like you can't control that person. So that person is considered a wild card now. So it's like, something comes down and you need to push your agenda, it's not gonna work on that person. that's why you have respect for them because it's... Like subconsciously, that person to you could cause you harm your powers don't work on that person. That's like your kryptonite right there. And you're very cautious of that if you're a narcissist or any kind of manipulator. You know who you can't manipulate. And I think that's also intriguing for that person. It's like a challenge pretty much that their powers don't work on someone. Lisa: Mm-hmm. I know. Ken: Well, the thing is, yeah, people don't respect someone they could walk all over. That's really the truth. So if, yeah, like, so if you're a narcissist if you're a manipulator, and someone just bows at your feet, you don't think highly of that person at all. That's just, I think that's just how it is, right? It's like, oh, this person, bootlicker. I don't respect this person. Lisa: Right. Yes, the doormats. You just... Ken: Yeah, being a doormat doesn't get you any brownie points. It might get you some brownie points in the beginning when the narcissist is like, ⁓ yeah, everything's good. like you, I like you too. Once going ⁓ to top, I'm bringing all of you with me until things go wrong and then you're just, you're gonna be scapegoated out or kicked out because you're weak. It's gonna happen like that. Lisa: Yeah. Thanks for the supply at the beginning, but I'm going to discard you because I'm bored with Ken: I got another supply over here, that's why. I got another supply over here, you're not good enough supply for me. You're too easy. It's almost like you're too easy. I got something a little bit more complicated up here. Lisa: Mm-hmm. can you not talk about narcissism? Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: My dad's ex, ⁓ texting and she me something recently and it said, my therapist and think that your dad is a narcissist because I was telling ⁓ about I'm wife five and the way he discarded me and blah blah blah blah blah. It was a long text and I was like, what? I can see why it could seem like narcissism because autism and narcissism, there's a ton of overlap. Like there's literally been studies of, well, not studies plural, but I know of one study showed that autism can present as covert narcissism or what they call vulnerable narcissism or whatever. And ⁓ actually recent study. the study was in Milan, Italy. And I actually looked it up because there was a with Dr. had this video of covert narcissism. ⁓ And when I watched it, I thought, ⁓ reminds me of my dad so much. ⁓ And when I found out that like there's so much overlap between autism covert narcissism, it made a lot of sense. ⁓ And could see why she would think that. But I even told her ⁓ he's obviously autistic. And ⁓ his ex, number is this is ex number five, just to clarify. She's very neurotypical. And when I say that, I mean, a-listic, meaning not autistic. to the point where it's like the miscommunication was so severe that she would come up to me and say, why does he do this? Why can he put himself in other people's shoes? constant misunderstandings? She was having, ⁓ it's called Cassandra syndrome. I'm not sure if you've heard it. So I found out it because I'm part of this group of like adult children of autistic parents. Ken: Never heard of that before, what is that? Lisa: Cassandra syndrome it comes from it's It's Greek mythology. Cassandra she was cursed with knowing the future, but no one would believe her so She saw like all these horrible things coming and then she would tell people no No, they're gonna all these horrible things gonna happen. No believed her and then it happened kind of a thing So a neurotypical person who's with a neurodivergent person. But to me, it work. I think it actually would work better with a person who's ⁓ narcissistic and they're ⁓ a narcissistic partner because like, ⁓ my partner does this to me. That's really horrible. Like, no, they're very charming. They're funny. They're so intelligent. No, they would never do that. They're so nice. I think it works better, but for some reason it's been attributed to partners of neurodivergent partners, so what I'm saying that what she had was she had this Cassandra syndrome, constantly asking me, am I wife number five? Why is this this? Why does he do this? And I even told her, look, ⁓ autism. It makes perfect sense. She had him evaluated, actually. So going back the study that I was telling you about, They had 87 participants, ⁓ all were diagnosed on this spectrum, And ⁓ professionals, were to ⁓ there's tons of overlap between both. This study came out in 20th November, 2023. It's called Traits of Narcissistic Vulnerability in Adults with Autism Spectrum Disorders without Intellectual Disabilities. So ⁓ the they were able to use for the study, were high functioning autistics. So it used to be called Asperger's, but now it's level one. And I could totally get that because my dad, like I could see with my dad with, he's very passive aggressive. He's very pedantic. I'm not sure if you ever heard of pedantic speech. ⁓ Ken: I have not. Lisa: Okay, so pedantic speech, it's pretty typical for people with autism or functioning autism where have to constantly correct because they... ⁓ know, someone who constantly corrects you on your grammar ⁓ or whatever it is or ⁓ You said, ⁓ da da da. No, they're correcting you, but like it sounds super arrogant. Ken: ⁓ Lisa: Yeah, it's constant that it could come off as criticism. ⁓ Ken: think a normal person tries not to do that, right? Mid-conversation? Yeah. Lisa: Yeah, someone with good social skills would just... And I've talked about this with my dad, where it's like, you know what? If someone misuses a word or something, just let it go. Whatever. Just let it go. Everyone makes mistakes, you know, everyone misspeaks. Ken: Let the person finish their thought and then, ⁓ I think it was this word. It doesn't always have to be mid-sentence. It's like, ⁓ you said it wrong. That's just, so it's like, so grammar police, are they like, they just have that? Your dad's a grammar police? Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, when he does it, he the nose up in the air kind of like... sounds super arrogant, like super condescending. You feel like being talked down to. Ken: Yeah, would be even worse if he had a British accent. Lisa: dare you? I know you're just trying to get me to use the accent because Ken: haven't had a visit from Victoria in a very long time. Lisa: You're obsessed with it. I know you're obsessed with my British accent and even texted me about it like, ⁓ my God, ⁓ just heard this rough cut in the British accent and I'm obsessed and ⁓ Ken: I'm like dying most of the time, I'm like ⁓ my gosh. the episode before, ⁓ the episode that's gonna come out like soon, ⁓ it hasn't already, just ⁓ like a string, like a whole like half of the episode was just that. Lisa: know Ken keeps talking about it because he's obsessed with it. I keep saying he's obsessed. It's like stop. ⁓ Ken: It makes it very interesting to be, ⁓ no, I didn't know someone from the UK is here in the studio. Hello! Lisa: Don't make me go Erica Kirk on you. Ken: man, ⁓ ⁓ we shouldn't do the political stuff but I saw a clip of someone ⁓ her about honoring Charlie during an interview and you could see her eyes just lock and she has this look to kill someone! Lisa: she's throwing daggers at- like through her eyes. Ken: good lord, it's so creepy, right? Lisa: She... You know, I have some thoughts about her, but I'll keep to myself because it's not a political podcast. But let's go back to ⁓ I was saying. Okay, to be fair, there's a lot of overlap between autism and narcissism, but you know, I've actually met people who are both. They were comorbid autists ⁓ narcissists. And mean... Look, everyone knows Elon Musk, right? ⁓ most famous narcissistic person ⁓ in the But I've met people personally in my life who were diagnosed autistic, but I knew they were also narcissistic. So it can happen. but with my dad, I know he's not narcissistic because of intention. ⁓ I think not malicious. So I knew it wouldn't work out between them because she had a very strong personality, very allistic, not autistic. I just knew but he's not a discerning can see why she would think he was narcissistic. But, you know, and my dad is very passive aggressive. Very passive aggressive. And it's funny because he doesn't even know what passive aggressive means. I've tried to explain it to him. Like he doesn't know the definition. Ken: a backhanded compliment, right? Lisa: A yeah, it's a backhanded compliment I've tried to explain it but he doesn't get it because he's so hyper literal Like you're either aggressive or you're passive There's no in between He- it's black and white There's no nuance But he doesn't get it But ⁓ funny because he himself is very passive aggressive Ken: Yeah, it's... it's also very easy to misdiagnose someone as ⁓ narcissist there's traits and it's comorbid with a lot of things. But a lot of the times, ⁓ especially your dad, it's his a sort of intention that's fitting with some sort of narcissism. It doesn't seem like it is. It seems like maybe the autism just seems to have similar traits, right? Lisa: yes, very. Ken: It's very, because really narcissism is like the hot topic, right? It's like, wow, this person's a narcissist. It's like, no, no, no. It's kind of like, you have to look deeper. They have the traits, but it doesn't mean they're a narcissist. You have to really dig deep into that. You have to really investigate someone's personality in order to have that. So it's not, it seems like a very easy thing for people to throw around. It's like, oh yeah, another thing back then was like, oh yeah, I have ADHD. And then if you look for like people that have... that just say it, like if you investigate further, like they don't have the traits. They have like maybe a couple of the traits, but they think they have ADHD or something like that. So it's like something you have to dig deeper and with like a actual like psychologist or psychiatrist to actually help you diagnose that. Like this is something that's like ⁓ it's it's often and it just turns into like a WebMD kind of thing. ⁓ I think I have this. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. easy to say. It's easy to go, like, ⁓ I think that person has it, or I think I have it. It's like, well, you have to get a check. ⁓ have to be diagnosed. Lisa: I the narcissism is so overused, but at the same time I feel like it's underused. ⁓ Because think the pop psychology version of narcissism where it's like, ⁓ they're love with themselves. They think about them. it's because they take so many selfies. my God, they're self-obsessed. ⁓ Ken: Yes. Not necessarily, yeah. Yeah, self-obsessed and self-centeredness is not an all-in-all be-all of narcissism. Lisa: No, but the real narcissistic person out of the disorder, someone who is super manipulative empathy. No empathy. Ken: manipulative, sensitive, no empathy, insecure at the same time. Like that's like, okay, if they have all of those, maybe that's a very, Those are all indicators that someone could investigate and be like, oh yeah, they have that, that, and that could be. Right? Lisa: Yeah, and that... who are really narcissistic, they say, they're an asshole. What a dick. Ken: A lot of times they are hard, that's why. ⁓ Lisa: yes, they are, but they don't recognize real narcissistic personality disorder. Have you noticed that? Where just someone who has narcissistic personality disorder, they're like, God, what a fucking asshole. It's just me. Ken: Well, it's like they're assholes too, but a lot of the times they're masters of manipulation. They're masters of putting up a narrative. So unless you're like, I got harmed by this narcissist, how would you know? Unless you're the person that got manipulated, how would you know? That person is, yeah, it's like, almost like dealing with someone that's like a snake oil salesman, right? Or someone that's like selling you onto something. They make you feel good about yourself sometimes. And then, they're the scorpion, right? Then the scorpion's gonna sting you and then it's like, oh, it is, and then the scorpion brings you a present. And then the scorpion stings you again. So it's kinda like that. That's pretty much how, like, someone with narcissistic tendencies, like, operate. Oh. It's kinda like the Dr. Romany thing, where it's like, oh yeah, Mess with Toll, gaslight you, and then lovebomb you. It kinda goes into this cycle. So it's like, if you have someone that's totally manipulating narratives and stuff like that, and they're manipulating relationships, That person is a narcissist. so what happened? um, your dad's ex-wife messaged you that? Did you message anything back to her? It was like, oh yeah, it's probably not right. Lisa: I said, no, he's obviously autistic, but... to it but she was like no the person evaluated him ⁓ just for context he was evaluated but the person who evaluated him was a student okay they did not have a Ken: ⁓ boy, that's not... That's not best! Lisa: No. Ken: And plus, the person that evaluated him, was it in person? Lisa: It was in person my understanding. But I this person, this student needed a lot of experience. ⁓ when asked dad, said, ⁓ you know, ⁓ someone, your ex me that you were evaluated for autism. What was it? ⁓ Like, ⁓ they I wasn't. And I'm like, well, what the monologuing? I monologue? Ken: Yes. Lisa: Yeah, that's literally the first fucking thing that, you know, have you heard of the ICD-11? Ken: explain it to me. Lisa: Okay, so the DSM-5, the Diagnostical Manual, basically the Bible for psychologists, ICD-11 is the Diagnostical Manual for the World Health Organization. The very, very first thing in their criteria for autism is can you have reciprocal conversations? He cannot. the fact that ⁓ at people, I mean, literally cannot have any kind of small talk. I mean, is a communication disorder. right? and I asked him what about your meltdowns? ⁓ Like what meltdowns? ⁓ my god ⁓ Ken: Yeah, he's not aware. That's kind of indicator that doesn't take social cues well. He's not self aware. Yeah, I think he has autism. Lisa: duh. And it was like... I looking at this... It was a video YouTube. And this, I guess, or psychiatrist was saying, I ⁓ do evaluations for autism. And what they do is have family member... ⁓ Ken: That's all. Lisa: come and they'll say usually family member they've known for a long time they'll talk to that family member and say it's usually a parent or a sibling the most part say oh where they have the speech delays did they walk on their tiptoes did they have like finger what's called finger posturing finger posturing is like when they hold their fingers in weird ways like it almost looks like they're throwing up gang signs things like that evaluate he had to self evaluate so you're basically going for somebody who has zero self awareness asking do you do this ⁓ no i don't ⁓ not Ken: ⁓ that's not good. That's ⁓ like asking a blind man, what do you see right here? Lisa: Yeah, need a person on the outside to show them because they have no self-awareness. And... Ken: ⁓ boy, this seems like it's a very flawed diagnostic kind of thing already. Lisa: Mmm. Ugh. Ken: yeah! Lisa: ⁓ my god... Anyway... Ken: That's some malpractice a little bit. Lisa: ⁓ not lot of experience. It's super, super obvious to me. ⁓ Ken: Yeah, it's a lack of experience. It's like, ⁓ yeah, it's not, by the way, psychology? Not as easy as it looks. Lisa: I mean, the problem with psychology is that a young science. So it hasn't been around as long as like math or all these other quote hard sciences. But it's unfortunate because... ⁓ It doesn't give him the help that he needs. He would really benefit from ABA therapy. And I know ABA therapy is super controversial. I get that. But it would help him having to converse with neurotypical people the back and forth. Ken: And with stuff like that with your dad, think the rule of thumb is you should treat it like a medical issue and always get a second opinion, get a second diagnosis. Because yeah, maybe that therapist was too young, didn't have enough experience. You should really get checked somewhere else. Like, one therapist might tell you one thing, another therapist might tell you something else, and it'll be like totally different, right? Lisa: That's what I was going to bring up maybe he gets a second diagnosis because ⁓ Ken: Yes, and plus it's quite common to cycle through several different therapists, several different psychiatrists even to find the one that actually like is you're on the same level with them. You're fixing the same thing because you easily find someone that thinks you have something that you don't have. Case in point, first ever experience with like anti-depressants and stuff like that, the SSRIs. First psychiatrist I went to was, I very young. ⁓ I think I had like a attack when I was like 21. I went to psychiatrist. He asked me some questions and decided to give me bipolar medicine because he thought I was bipolar based on what I said. I wasn't bipolar and ⁓ all the side effects of medication hit me at once so I was crazy for two weeks where I couldn't sleep, I couldn't stop fidgeting probably like the ⁓ worst weeks mentally of my life I couldn't sleep I was sleeping maybe like half an hour every day for like two weeks and ⁓ had Tardive Dyskinesia I had like ⁓ muscle movements stuff like that it's pretty much everything in the commercial list of side effects it was all there it was so bad I had my family go in there and was like, well, you got to fix this because he's like, he's been psycho for two weeks. He ends up prescribing me like a medication. So my tremors would stop and it did. And as soon as that happened, we're like, can we sue this guy for malpractice for misdiagnosing me? And that's why ⁓ that point I am so wary of taking medication unless I know what I'm getting myself into. And I was, I learned young at like 21. I was like, ⁓ man, if you misdiagnose me, you could really mess me up. And really there has been situations where I've had family members and friends get misdiagnosed and take the wrong medication and they go crazy for like a week or two. Like I was like, ⁓ I've been there and I tried to talk them down from it. ⁓ of that, don't think that one ⁓ or psychiatrist and psychologist, that's the person you listen to. No, get multiple, as much opinions, different, shop around. Don't get the first guy or girl that you find in like a phone book or like on like ZocDoc or something like that. It is so important. Always get a second opinion with stuff like that. Lisa: ⁓ my god. Wow. ⁓ Ken: Did you ever hear that story about me going crazy for two weeks? This was before we met. This was like right after. Yeah. Isn't it great keep telling each other stories that we never told each other? There's so much more stuff that we don't know about each other. They're all great stories, by the way. Lisa: You never told me. ⁓ I guess we don't know each other. You you never told me anything. Ken: We do know each other, but you know why this is a good friendship? We always have more stuff to talk about with each other, right? Lisa: But thankfully, it's always positive. Ken: it's good and bad. Don't you feel warm and fuzzy inside? This is what friendships are we have running jokes and then we have stuff that we never talk about Guess what? We always have something to talk about Lisa: Whatever. Ken: Jeez, jeez, Lisa! Jeez! Lisa: i so depressing when think about like, ugh, fuck, you know? Ken: Depressing? Yes. Yes. Other stuff, yes. Lisa: Yeah, I just... I... It's unfortunate that my dad can't get the help that he needs because of ⁓ super diagnosis. And it's just me saying it because how many people have been around him? And how many people are like, autistic? Is he autistic? Is he... Like how many people are like, yeah, it's obvious, you know, because he's a boomer. And back in those days, nobody got the help that they needed. right? Ken: Yeah, yeah. And it also frustrates me that say that people say, are there so many autistic people now? It's because we have better ways of diagnosing it. People are actually trying to see if they are autistic or not. They're trying to fix things in their life. And to say it's like, ⁓ man, all these things. We have a huge spike in autism. I was like, OK, that's just ⁓ my mind, incidental. Like your dad, if he grew up. Lisa: Well. Ken: maybe even 50 years ago would not have gotten this checked even. Lisa: exactly. because like reason boomers are being ⁓ diagnosed with autistic is their children ⁓ or not just boomers maybe Gen X, even Millennials, the kids are being diagnosed tell the parents, might want to get yourself checked because I see a lot of the same patterns and all of a sudden, there's this huge autism boom. just was not recognized and it's really obvious and a huge genetic component. evaluated for autism, but my brother was evaluated ADHD. He actually was diagnosed with ADHD. My mom obviously is super obvious ADD. Like it's very, very obvious that she has like severe ADD. I mean, I don't know if he got it from her. I don't know what that means for me. I don't know. I've never been valued it for anything, really. So. just, and I know ABA is super controversial because it's like people say it's akin to like gay conversion therapy because it forces autistic people to mask and to basically become, try to be as neurotypical as possible. you know, communicate in a neurotypical way, Whereas like, you know, neurotypical people, they, when they like a tennis match, back forth, back and forth. whereas autistic people, it's, it's like bowling. Right, you just ⁓ roll the ball ⁓ to the end. Ken: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I could understand why say it's controversial, but I do want to say like, it's like, okay, it's really up to your dad's agency. Does he want to get done? Does he feel like he should Because ⁓ honestly, in ⁓ most of our especially when in public or we're in workspace and stuff like that, we do even as like, as neurotypical as we are. Lisa: forth. Ken: on what your wants to get out of it. Right. ⁓ does he want to be able to understand people's behaviors? Does he want to just be seen as neurotypical? Totally up to him. Right. So it's like, I think eventually it just, you might want to talk with dad and just be like, what do you want? What do you want out of this? Lisa: know what's, it's annoying because because of this lack of diagnosis or under diagnosis, whatever you want to call it, he's like, no, I'm not. Funny, it goes to his black and white thinking of like, ⁓ what's it called? to authority? Kind of like, Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: this authority figure said, I'm not autistic, so it means I'm not autistic. There's no nuance. There's no gray area. It's black and white of like, I'm either autistic or I'm not autistic. Or it's like, ⁓ maybe there's a diagnosis. Maybe this didn't have the experience, but doesn't see it that way. And It's unfortunate. And you were saying about the ABA therapy, I could see it being very But I've also known a lot of people who've had children who were on this spectrum. and they actually had ABA therapy. And ⁓ let's say a child, know how lot of autistic kids, they'll just bang their head against the wall when they're frustrated, they have the meltdowns? ⁓ Ken: Yes. Lisa: bang their head until like their head bleeds and ⁓ there's hole in the wall and like with ABA therapy they stop doing that. I mean, to me it seems like a win, but I'm sure people who are anti-ABA listening and they're like, You are the same as like ⁓ a anti-conversion therapy... Like conversion proponent. You're an ableist. Ken: Well, we're not asking for the person to be like a, you know, stop molesting children or something like that. It literally is a communication tool. Right. and a of it is just like, hey, sometimes this this kind of like ABA, it does help the parents. It's very difficult raise a kid with autism to have a kind of like a structure or like a like a kind of game plan to be able to help someone live as normal of a life as they can. think it's great. I think it's great. But that's just me. I can see why people don't like it. I think it's a helpful tool. Lisa: You know what? Yeah. complicated. at the same time... ⁓ I just wonder if it would help me. I ⁓ wonder if it would help my dad with his meltdowns. ⁓ Ken: Yeah, and it's a little harder because your dad's already like pretty long into adulthood. So not sure how much benefit he could get, but maybe even just taking like some steps, he will see someone's gonna explain this to him. ⁓ is why how it is. Hopefully he gets a lot out of it if he does do it or just learn more about it. So doesn't to be like totally. into it, right? He's already been through his entire life without having it. be great to fix it, but... Lisa: ⁓ that's not without issues though. The fact that he has tons of exes, the fact that he's had tons of issues and Ken: Of course. Of course. Well, it's a lack of self-awareness too. He probably doesn't even know why it keeps failing. Why his relationships don't last. Lisa: Yeah, zero self, zero self-awareness. Ken: So maybe his goal in life is to figure out why. And before I was like, why what? was like, why anything? Why am I like this? Lisa: You know what? You know what he used to say? I don't know why nobody likes me Why does nobody like me? Why can I maintain friendships? can I maintain relationships? It's pretty obvious, you know, but Ken: Obvious to us, not obvious to him. Lisa: Right. It someone like me to point out the monologuing and fact that I'm like, I have to say, I literally have to tell him, did you hear what I said? no, I didn't. I'm like, ⁓ after he like ⁓ three minutes over me I'm trying to get a word in edgewise, and I was like, did you realize you monologued? And he just kind of stops himself and he doesn't realize that he had monologued. Ken: Yeah, I have done Act 2 of Romeo and Juliet. Did you like it? I wasn't in the room. I went to go get a drink. Are you done now? Lisa: Thank you ⁓ god. Ken: be great for your dad if... I mean, he's went entire life the best part of it, I guess, in terms of relationships. So you would think that he'll be a little curious, right, to get this looked But that's just me. Lisa: I mean, he did, but it was only because his ex basically said, maybe it's autism. And I was very surprised that he was receptive about the fact that he got himself evaluated. Ken: sometimes people just want to know what's wrong. I don't want to say it's like, ⁓ it's a crutch. Or they could just go back and, ⁓ it's because I had this. That's why I'm like that. No, for some things, maybe explains some things in their life, right? Like if we discover, like you discover your mom's a narcissist and your dad has autism, my dad's a narcissist. It gives context into what we experience. So maybe, This will give context into those relationships that your dad had that failed or ones that didn't fail his relationship with you. It could really help him, I think. Lisa: It would help him if he got the ABA therapy, but I say ABA, Applied Behavioral Analysis, for those who are wondering like, what's ABA? There you go, I'm not being pedantic. But what trying to say is would help him, but he would to seek it out. ⁓ Unfortunately, unless he's diagnosed, he cannot get ABA therapy. That's like the catch-22. ⁓ Ken: Here comes the get a second opinion. Lisa: gonna bring that up. He's ⁓ gonna with me actually in a few days. He's gonna fly into LA and he's gonna stay with me for 10 days. that should interesting. ⁓ my god. will have ⁓ a lot material for the next day. ⁓ Ken: Woo! 10 days. That's a week and a half. That's almost a Fortnite. Remember to write things down. He's like, are you writing down? I was like, oh, just notes. I like, I like taking notes. Lisa: ⁓ I'm just reading- It's my grocery list, sorry. ⁓ yeah, it's just my Costco list, sorry. ⁓ Ken: you're taking notes about your dad being over, I'm gonna take notes about my dad just saying the most insane stuff to me. He's like, you wanna eat lunch? I was like, I don't wanna eat your lunch, dad. He's like, why not? It's like, your cooking's terrible, ⁓ dad. I don't even to play nice anymore. Lisa: you Thank Ha ha ha ha! tell him his cooking's terrible? ⁓ my god. Ken: It is. It is. You know, ironically, the only people that like my cooking is my fiance. she likes his cooking for some reason. I'm like, his cooking is terrible. He puts oyster sauce in everything. Everything tastes the same then, right? Lisa: I wonder if that's a narcissistic thing. Probably not. But like my mom was a horrible cook. You know she put Alfredo sauce and soy sauce together in a dish and it literally looked like vomit and even smelled like vomit. Ken: is it not that my dad can't cook? ⁓ You what the worst thing is? It's that confidence. We will go to a restaurant, right? And we'll have like something. Let's say like we go to Thai food and it's pad thai or like something like that or like it'll be like spaghetti or something like that meatballs. he'll say something like, ⁓ I could cook that at home. I could probably make it better. No, you can't. No, you can't. Do you know why I know that you tried this before? We know how this turned out. Lisa: You Ken: Not good. it's that, ⁓ man, it's like, are you just really overly confident in your ability? And it's just, this was before I thought he was a narcissist and like throughout the years it's confirmed as such was like, he really thinks highly of himself, does he? Like I'm the opposite. I'm like, I'm a terrible cook. I'm like, I was like, I hope this is edible. That's what I do. But I never was like, I could, I could recreate this. He says it on a regular basis. It's like, you can't recreate it. Lisa: Thank my god, that reminds me of my mom. My mom never cooked when I was growing up, hardly ever. When she did it was like super dry steaks for her partner she was with, because he like super like well done. When I say well done steak, was like dry, dry. was like, like, the consistency of bubble gum. ⁓ Ken: Dup, dup, yeah, that's just... Well, it's called the, I'll overcook it so nobody gets food poisoning. Plan. Lisa: she did not think about that. But the little that she did cook, it was horrible. And when I was talking about the Alfredo sauce the soy sauce, you know the thing is that she's very competitive with her female siblings, especially she has one sibling who's like her mortal enemy. Her mortal enemy, she a fantastic cook. Like, she could do michelin starred like a restaurant like she makes the her pozole is excellent when i say excellent i'm talking about like michelin stars they would just be like you know what i give up because this is there's not enough stars for this shit ⁓ her cooking is so fucking good so my mom biggie competition with her like i'm gonna start cooking so she started cooking and Ken: Oooooh Lisa: She started making things that my grandmother used to make, because my mom hardly ever cooked growing up. ate like, I would be the one making sandwiches, or we ate cereal for dinner, or a lot of frozen food and stuff ⁓ we living the States, right? So I later on, this in her ⁓ 50s decided to a chef. I'm like, whatever. And then she's recreating that my grandmother had made but she didn't remember all of the ingredients so brother's like, ⁓ she made tortas de papa ⁓ I was like, you know, like and funny because it's like a German thing but it's like potato pancakes but they're made with tuna and they're filled with maybe cheese I don't remember Ken: ⁓ god! Mm-hmm. Lisa: And I was like, oh, did she make them with the tuna? And it's like, oh, she forgot about that. Oh, she forgot about that. I'm like, oh my god, she grew up eating my grandmother's food. My grandmother was an excellent cook too. Great cook. oh my god, it's amazing. But my mom never picked it whatever reason. It's just so weird that she just decides to be a chef in her like... mid late 50s because she's trying to compete with her sister and it was like you know why can't you just be a good cook for your own children rather than just them eat cereal dinner because you're too lazy to cook and you're gone most of the time so it's like just whatever shit that was in the fridge you the little food that she left in the fridge that I had to like make for me and my brother. It's like, why can't you just make these gourmet meals for us? And they're like, these gourmet meals, but they're horrible that she makes. They're not even good. You know? the fuck? Ken: Well, got humbled because cooking's not as easy as it looks. So she's thinking, I could just like do it as a hobby. It's like, no, it takes years of practice and It's not that easy to cook well. Lisa: You know what's weird about her? I would have willing to wager that she thinks she's a great cook. Oh, I can hold my own. She says that in Spanish. It's like, me defiendo, which means like, I can hold my own. she really believes that she's a great cook, even though she's horrible at it. Her food is disgusting. It literally smells like vomit and it looks like vomit. Like the presentation, it looks like fucking vomit. It's nasty. And she doesn't get it. Ken: she eat her own cooking? ⁓ doesn't, she doesn't know. Lisa: I think so. think so, I don't know. Ken: She's smart enough not to touch it, so... She gives it to you, I'll be like, how is it? Tastes like feet. Lisa: are you She'd be like, no, that's the greatest thing. a great cook. ⁓ my god. ⁓ Ken: You are not. Here, have a bite. Lisa: people think self-delusion like the way you're talking about like your dad believes his own lies. That's the way my mom is. She believes her own lies. So lies themselves and the self gaslighting and it's it's another level. It's not normal. Ken: Well, when you run out of people to tell you that you're great, you start telling it to yourself. Lisa: whatever. ⁓ Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: Alright, on that note, should we just wrap it up? Ken: Yes, wrap it up into a nice little package. Lisa: Alright. So, hopefully I'll come back in the... So that gets the next episode. I'll have a lot of material because my dad has been in my house for 10 days and doing whatever. I'll see you guys then. Ken: Yeah, yeah, if we if you survive and I survive, we will have another episode. Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. We'll just call it like survivors or some shit, ⁓ Working Survivors. Ken: We're just survivors or like, guess what happened this time? Lisa: my god. ⁓ Ken: We spill the tea about our parents now being really close to us and it's not going well. Or it might go well, who knows? Let's have a open mind. Lisa: On that note. Ken: I We have to laugh, if we don't laugh we're not going to survive. Lisa: We keep from crying, you know? Ken: Yeah, laughing and crying are very close. Lisa: They say tears are laughter turned inside out or whatever. Anyways, Ken, yeah, we'll just touch base later. And thank you guys for listening with us. ⁓ Hopefully guys can relate and it's some kind of catharsis. ⁓ Ken: Yeah, whatever that is. Mm-hmm. That's a SAT word. Lisa: Is it catharsis? Ken: Probably. Lisa: I don't know, I never take the SCTs. Ken: I don't know, I didn't do well in the SATs. My parents were not happy. Yeah, I did not get a good score. And you know what my dad said? Lisa: Wow. What? Ken: You should have looked up schools and like training to get yourself have better grades at the SATs. Lisa: Sounds about Asian. Ken: Sounds about what Asian parents would tell their 16 year old. Find it yourself! You should have tried harder. Lisa: Okay. Ken: What a jerk. Lisa: fucking asshole. glad my mom's illiterate. So I never knew about the SATs and stuff. just kind of like, didn't. ⁓ Ken: My dad likes to read. It's not much better. Lisa: Is it- my dad loves to read, but my mom's illiterate. So it's kind of a weird combination because he's very literate and she's illiterate. It's such a weird combination. I'm like, it's funny because people go like, how'd they ever get together? And I'm like, I have no fucking clue. But she- but well, think she was trying to get her papers. ⁓ so yeah, let's ⁓ SAT words aside, SAT or SAT? I don't know, I've never took it. ⁓ Ken: I don't care anymore. It's been like over 20 years. I don't care anymore. On that note, let's end the show, Lisa. Lisa: All right, bye Ken. It was good talking with you. Ken: Bye Lisa. Good talking to you too. Bye everyone.