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Inside The Data: Expected Usage Of Under Center, Motion, Play Action In Philadelphia Eagles Offense · Inside the Birds: A Philadelphia Eagles Podcast

0:09
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Inside the Data on Inside
0:13
Speaker 1: the Birds.
0:13
Speaker 2: I'm Jeff Mosher with of course our.
0:15
Speaker 3: Data and analytics expert Sam Finkel, And it did not
0:18
Speaker 3: take long. Although it might the actual search for a
0:21
Speaker 3: new Eagles offensive coordinator might have felt like an eternity
0:24
Speaker 3: for some, Sam, it did not take long for us
0:27
Speaker 3: to get right back in to the first Inside the
0:30
Speaker 3: Data of the offseason, and we are going to focus
0:33
Speaker 3: it on not only the hiring of offensive coordinator Sean
0:37
Speaker 3: mannon a relative unknown in the coaching field, but also
0:41
Speaker 3: the addition of the past game coordinator Josh Grizzard, because
0:45
Speaker 3: both of these guys come from a similar background, they've
0:49
Speaker 3: coached with similar type coaches. And when you start to
0:51
Speaker 3: connect all the dots right the mcvaan, mcmick, shanahan McVeigh trees,
0:57
Speaker 3: you start to see where the Eagles are going, at
1:00
Speaker 3: least theoretically with their offense and what they wanted to
1:05
Speaker 3: look like. So was that A your impression of the
1:08
Speaker 3: two HighRes and then B when you put this together
1:10
Speaker 3: what we're about to go through on Inside the Data here,
1:14
Speaker 3: what were you seeking to do?
1:17
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean my impression is that they got the
1:20
Speaker 4: relatively unknown, like you said, but a rising star, and
1:23
Speaker 4: then they married it to a you know, a more
1:27
Speaker 4: seasoned coach with the thought process I'm assuming being that
1:31
Speaker 4: we have a voice that has been coaching a little
1:35
Speaker 4: bit longer in the room as well and can help
1:38
Speaker 4: with the transition because it does take usually a little
1:41
Speaker 4: bit of time for it, especially a new play caller,
1:44
Speaker 4: to find success. So trying to put him in a
1:47
Speaker 4: position of success by having another person who's had some
1:50
Speaker 4: you know, success, but also some more time coaching.
1:54
Speaker 3: I loved how you use unintentionally the word marrying there,
1:58
Speaker 3: because you're talking about marrying two coordinators or two offensive
2:03
Speaker 3: designers with a similar background, which helps, right, much like
2:06
Speaker 3: when Vic Fangio became defensive coordinator to get a guy
2:09
Speaker 3: like Clint Hurt Christian Parker who had both coached under
2:12
Speaker 3: him before Joe Casper. That way, the trickle down, right,
2:16
Speaker 3: because the position coaches are really the most important coaches
2:19
Speaker 3: in development of players, not the coordinator, because those are
2:22
Speaker 3: the guys who work.
2:23
Speaker 1: On the techniques and the fundamentals.
2:25
Speaker 3: So now you have two guys in Josh Grizzard and
2:28
Speaker 3: Sean Mannion, and we'll see if there's more changes on
2:31
Speaker 3: the offensive staff so that their message can get trickled
2:34
Speaker 3: down to the position coaches and you can start to
2:37
Speaker 3: learn the concepts needed to execute their offense. And I
2:41
Speaker 3: think the word mary is important because if there's one
2:44
Speaker 3: thing that I believe that we'll look forward to in
2:47
Speaker 3: this offense right is better and deeper understanding of how
2:54
Speaker 3: the run game and the.
2:56
Speaker 2: Pass game are married within this offense.
2:59
Speaker 3: Because for about three years now, and I'm including the
3:02
Speaker 3: Super Bowl run and i'm including twenty twenty three, basically
3:07
Speaker 3: since Shane Syken left and they changed some rules on
3:09
Speaker 3: crackdowns and RPOs, I think it's fair to say no,
3:12
Speaker 3: even on days where the Eagles offense looked very good,
3:15
Speaker 3: it was because of shot plays in the past game
3:18
Speaker 3: and an effective running game, not necessarily a pass game
3:23
Speaker 3: that was a byproduct of.
3:26
Speaker 2: A good run game.
3:27
Speaker 1: And a lot of these guys from the Shanahan.
3:30
Speaker 3: McVeigh tree, everything they do and teach has to do
3:34
Speaker 3: with timing, rhythm, your footwork. How on a three step
3:38
Speaker 3: drop a route has to marry correctly with that play
3:42
Speaker 3: call as opposed to a five step drop, and the
3:44
Speaker 3: change there, I think, looking at the Eagles pass offense.
3:47
Speaker 3: There were so many times where you and I and
3:49
Speaker 3: Greg Cosel and people who break down tape wondered, like,
3:53
Speaker 3: how is that pass concept supposed to be or that
3:56
Speaker 3: route concept supposed to mirror.
3:58
Speaker 1: What the quarterback is doing his drop back.
4:00
Speaker 2: It's just the rhythm wasn't there.
4:04
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and it was definitely a problem that they had.
4:07
Speaker 4: And hopefully this will fix a lot of those problems.
4:10
Speaker 3: Right, You and I we talked because Sam and I
4:12
Speaker 3: got together with a couple of other inside the Birds
4:14
Speaker 3: interns and we were talking about this is either going
4:16
Speaker 3: to fix the problem or reveal that there's a bigger
4:19
Speaker 3: issue with the personnel of the offense. So we're going
4:22
Speaker 3: to find that out most likely this year. And I
4:25
Speaker 3: think we all agree we hope that through thick and
4:27
Speaker 3: through thin, the coach Nick Sirianni, allows this coaching staff
4:31
Speaker 3: offensively to let it like work, let it cook, you know,
4:35
Speaker 3: give it a shot, don't pull the the you know,
4:38
Speaker 3: curtains down on it. After five weeks allack, Kellen Moore, Right,
4:43
Speaker 3: so let's go.
4:44
Speaker 2: Let's let's do it. So I like what you did
4:47
Speaker 2: with this to introduce it to the viewers.
4:49
Speaker 3: We focused on some important concepts that we think this
4:53
Speaker 3: offense is going to be predicated on. What were those
4:55
Speaker 3: concepts that you sought to get analyte aalytics on.
4:58
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I went and got some advanced statistics that
5:02
Speaker 4: was kind of a big part of it. Some play
5:04
Speaker 4: action statistics, motion under center, and no huddle, those were there.
5:09
Speaker 2: You go.
5:09
Speaker 5: We kind of stuck with.
5:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, the four, the three or four like the real
5:13
Speaker 3: main points of this offense. And so what Sam did
5:17
Speaker 3: was take and and uh, we'll get to like the
5:20
Speaker 3: couching of it a little bit, take the Eagles offense
5:24
Speaker 3: and then compare it to Green Bay's offense where Sean
5:26
Speaker 3: Mannon came from, and Josh Grizzard's offense.
5:29
Speaker 2: From Tampa Bay.
5:30
Speaker 3: And a little bit of the couching is that Tampa
5:32
Speaker 3: Bay's numbers are a little skewed by all the injuries
5:35
Speaker 3: that they had and he really only had one year
5:37
Speaker 3: as coordinator. But I think most football fans understand that
5:40
Speaker 3: prior to this year, the Tampa Bay offense and Baker
5:43
Speaker 3: Mayfield in particular, had been really well from Dave Canalis
5:47
Speaker 3: to Liam Cohen to it started off really nicely for
5:51
Speaker 3: Josh Grizzard and when he had, you know, Mike Evans
5:54
Speaker 3: before he got hurt, and Mecca Buka had a nice
5:57
Speaker 3: rookie year, and Bucky Irving was the bucks of pretty
6:00
Speaker 3: good for four weeks, and then obviously the injuries.
6:02
Speaker 5: Changed a bunch of injuries.
6:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, so let us get into
6:08
Speaker 3: some of those charts. I just wanted to introduce sort
6:10
Speaker 3: of where we were going with this so that everybody
6:13
Speaker 3: can understand. All right, So we have two new voices
6:18
Speaker 3: for the Eagles offense, and we're going to compare where
6:20
Speaker 3: they came from and why that matters. To try to
6:24
Speaker 3: adjust the screen here so we can get everything on it.
6:27
Speaker 3: Here we go, all right, so your first chart, let's
6:32
Speaker 3: just isolate.
6:33
Speaker 2: That more if we can.
6:34
Speaker 3: Okay, these are just advanced stats from the twenty twenty
6:38
Speaker 3: five season for the Eagles Packers.
6:40
Speaker 5: The box correct correct.
6:41
Speaker 3: All right, what did you why did you focus on
6:45
Speaker 3: these five categories?
6:47
Speaker 2: And then what did you find out?
6:49
Speaker 5: Yeah?
6:49
Speaker 4: So EPA, because you know we've stressed that a lot
6:53
Speaker 4: in these podcasts. Is it's a pretty decent metric. It's
6:56
Speaker 4: not perfect. I think it's a better metric of team
6:59
Speaker 4: success than it is of individual success. But just how
7:03
Speaker 4: often are you putting your offense in a position to score?
7:07
Speaker 5: And obviously positive numbers are better than negative ones.
7:10
Speaker 4: As you'll see, average separation is an okay statistic, it's
7:15
Speaker 4: when targeted. But I like that statistic because a lot
7:18
Speaker 4: of the times when you're a higher average preparation, it
7:21
Speaker 4: means you're scheming guys open or putting your quarterback in
7:24
Speaker 4: a position two hit open receivers.
7:27
Speaker 5: That's why I put that one there and then run.
7:30
Speaker 4: Success because you know, I wanted to have some run
7:32
Speaker 4: game statistics in there.
7:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think all three of these teams last
7:36
Speaker 3: year were sort of victims of this a somewhat similar issue,
7:40
Speaker 3: which is injuries on the offensive line.
7:42
Speaker 2: We know that impacted the Eagles. We know it impacted
7:44
Speaker 2: the Packers.
7:45
Speaker 3: They lost Elton Jenkins, they lost Rashid Walker for a
7:48
Speaker 3: couple of games, or left tackle Penn se Kai.
7:52
Speaker 2: They lost their right tackles.
7:54
Speaker 3: Act Tom was hurt like all year lost sometimes he
7:56
Speaker 3: was playing.
7:57
Speaker 1: Hurt and he's a pretty good right tackle. And the
8:01
Speaker 1: had I think they were without Worfs for the first
8:03
Speaker 1: few weeks, and.
8:04
Speaker 3: Then they had all sorts of injuries, uh in the
8:07
Speaker 3: middle and the right side of their offensive line, absolutely,
8:11
Speaker 3: and they still finished with the fourteenth best run success
8:14
Speaker 3: So that's a that's a little bit of a positive there.
8:16
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there are some positives for sure. I mean,
8:20
Speaker 4: really this is more of an indictment on the Eagles offense.
8:23
Speaker 4: You look, there's nothing that they're leading in in these
8:27
Speaker 4: five statistics between the three teams, right, and.
8:30
Speaker 5: Then you look at the Packers.
8:31
Speaker 4: I mean, they're leading in e p A per play,
8:33
Speaker 4: they're leading an e p A per pass, they're learning
8:35
Speaker 4: leading in average separation per target, and then the Packers
8:41
Speaker 4: are leading in e p A per rush at zero,
8:43
Speaker 4: by the way.
8:45
Speaker 1: And then Buccaneers not Pat Buccaneers.
8:48
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm sorry, my mind's on the Super Bowl clearly.
8:53
Speaker 2: All good, All good.
8:55
Speaker 3: Uh let's wait, let's let's not closs over this about
8:58
Speaker 3: the Packers. Okay, so this is the Matt Floor offense
9:01
Speaker 3: and this is where Sean.
9:02
Speaker 2: Manion comes from.
9:03
Speaker 3: All right, and I think this these stats, I'll ask
9:07
Speaker 3: you if you I think this shows an efficiency to
9:11
Speaker 3: the Green Bay offense that may not be obvious when
9:14
Speaker 3: you're watching them, especially for an Eagles fan who remembers,
9:18
Speaker 3: I think, what was it a.
9:18
Speaker 1: Sixteen to nine game or no, it was like nine
9:21
Speaker 1: to three something.
9:23
Speaker 3: The score of that game was really low, and the
9:24
Speaker 3: Packers offense was not good against the Eagles that day.
9:28
Speaker 3: But this Packers offense in twenty twenty five sam was
9:32
Speaker 3: very up and down as far as points four and
9:36
Speaker 3: there were times that they went through some slumps. They
9:39
Speaker 3: were also missing Jayden Reid for a lot of the year.
9:42
Speaker 3: They lost their great tight end craft. But the fact
9:45
Speaker 3: for those who can't see who are just listening on
9:47
Speaker 3: the podcast, they were a top five EPA per play,
9:52
Speaker 3: EPA per pass, and six overall in separation, speaks to
9:57
Speaker 3: I think the coaching and the offense of design, because
10:01
Speaker 3: offensively they weren't always pretty, right.
10:05
Speaker 5: I think it's huge.
10:05
Speaker 4: There's a huge point that you just pointed out that
10:08
Speaker 4: you know, they are top five in some pretty significant statistics,
10:13
Speaker 4: despite like you said, all the injuries, despite some you know,
10:17
Speaker 4: difficulty to score points, they still were putting their offense
10:21
Speaker 4: in a position to succeed more often than not.
10:24
Speaker 3: Right, I don't remember, I'm gonna go I'll check it
10:27
Speaker 3: in a second here. I don't think the Packers were
10:30
Speaker 3: like a top five scoring team.
10:33
Speaker 2: They had some issues just getting the.
10:34
Speaker 3: Ball into the end zone if I'm correct. But the
10:38
Speaker 3: so again, I think it's a little bit of a
10:40
Speaker 3: testament to how well they know how to move the
10:43
Speaker 3: ball and how well Matt Lafleur coaches offense that despite
10:49
Speaker 3: some hang ups that they.
10:49
Speaker 2: Hadn't they honestly, they don't have.
10:51
Speaker 3: A whole lot of great weapons outside of Josh Jacobs
10:55
Speaker 3: and in the passing game, Watson came back after what
10:58
Speaker 3: seven or eight weeks and gave it a nice boost,
11:01
Speaker 3: but it's not like he's Jamar Chase either. They don't
11:03
Speaker 3: have a whole lot of great weapons.
11:06
Speaker 2: And as I.
11:07
Speaker 3: Look here, they scored the fifteenth most points in the league,
11:10
Speaker 3: so that's kind of like middle of the pack.
11:14
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, that was not the right I was looking
11:16
Speaker 2: at the wrong team.
11:16
Speaker 3: Hold on, it was less than that sixteenth, So there
11:19
Speaker 3: was sixteenth in scoring offense, Sam.
11:22
Speaker 2: But yet they move. But I think that there's a
11:25
Speaker 2: lesson in that.
11:26
Speaker 3: It's that they actually, for all their difficulties having a
11:30
Speaker 3: real elite player and putting the ball on the end zone.
11:33
Speaker 2: They move the ball with really good efficiency.
11:35
Speaker 4: Well, I think actually it's super interesting that you say
11:38
Speaker 4: that because one thing the Eagles did excel at is
11:42
Speaker 4: when they were in the red zone, and then they
11:44
Speaker 4: can again marry the two. You know, the actual success
11:48
Speaker 4: that the Eagles had in the red zone versus the Packers,
11:51
Speaker 4: the way that they were able to move the ball right,
11:54
Speaker 4: it could be really exciting if it works out.
11:57
Speaker 3: It's a great point because even though Goddard had a
11:59
Speaker 3: ton of those touches and it would be easy to
12:01
Speaker 3: say that was an individual Dallas, Goddard was awesome in
12:03
Speaker 3: the red zone thing. I mean, he was who's either
12:06
Speaker 3: wide open or untouched on several of those because they
12:09
Speaker 3: were schemed touchdowns. They were either RPOs or they were
12:12
Speaker 3: shovel passes, right.
12:14
Speaker 2: They had the Jets sweep with him there.
12:16
Speaker 3: He went around the corner and basically ran it in
12:18
Speaker 3: for a touchdown.
12:19
Speaker 2: So they used him creatively.
12:21
Speaker 1: But I think it was the offensive design that really
12:23
Speaker 1: was the biggest deal.
12:24
Speaker 5: Agree, What do you.
12:27
Speaker 2: Make of the Bucks?
12:27
Speaker 3: I mean, it's tough because they were beat up all
12:30
Speaker 3: year offensively.
12:31
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's interesting. I feel like he kind
12:34
Speaker 4: of getting like a little bit of a Goldilocks effect, right,
12:37
Speaker 4: I mean in the sense that you know, the Eagles
12:41
Speaker 4: are kind of in the middle of both them. But
12:44
Speaker 4: you see that the Packers have been better than average,
12:49
Speaker 4: top five in a lot of the pass metrics, and
12:52
Speaker 4: then you have the Buccaneers who were like top ten
12:55
Speaker 4: in the other metric, which is the run. See you
12:58
Speaker 4: kind of have the best of both words.
13:00
Speaker 5: Was coming in.
13:01
Speaker 2: Yep.
13:01
Speaker 3: I've always thought the Bucks have done a good job
13:03
Speaker 3: running the ball over the last few years, whether it
13:05
Speaker 3: was from Canalis to Cohen to Gizzard, despite not having
13:09
Speaker 3: a great offensive line, having injuries on the offensive line,
13:12
Speaker 3: and really using a variety of different running backs for
13:15
Speaker 3: Seat White, Bucky Irving, Sean Tucker, who all have different
13:19
Speaker 3: sort of strengths, right. I mean, Irving is clearly the
13:22
Speaker 3: best and most explosive, but he's he was hurt a
13:25
Speaker 3: lot last year, and yet they were still able to
13:27
Speaker 3: have a really good EPA per rush.
13:29
Speaker 4: So that speaks well, yeah, and again it's it's very
13:32
Speaker 4: interesting the seventh best in the league is zero zero.
13:35
Speaker 2: Yeah.
13:37
Speaker 4: That shows you rushing the ball does not necessarily lead
13:41
Speaker 4: to points expected.
13:42
Speaker 2: So that's true, all right.
13:45
Speaker 3: So the first element we're going to look at in
13:47
Speaker 3: comparison is play action. How often the Eagles use play
13:51
Speaker 3: action compared to the Packers and the Bucks last year,
13:54
Speaker 3: and what jumped out to you.
13:56
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, so, I think what's interesting is when
14:00
Speaker 4: you look at the play action past percentage, so I
14:03
Speaker 4: put the pass plays and then the play action pass
14:05
Speaker 4: plays again, you find the Eagles in the middle. So
14:09
Speaker 4: you have the Packers who ran it at a clip
14:12
Speaker 4: of twenty eight percent, and then you have the Buccaneers
14:14
Speaker 4: at nineteen point three percent. So I think it's really
14:17
Speaker 4: interesting having a team that ran it significantly more than
14:21
Speaker 4: the other, and then the Eagles fall in the middle.
14:23
Speaker 5: And I think that that's a.
14:24
Speaker 4: Theme that you're going to see a lot through these numbers,
14:27
Speaker 4: is that you have the Buccaneers on one end and
14:29
Speaker 4: they have the Packers on the other end, and the
14:30
Speaker 4: Eagles are in the middle. And I think the number
14:32
Speaker 4: will probably closer to the middle, but I just think
14:34
Speaker 4: it's interesting that you have these kind of two different
14:37
Speaker 4: fundamental not necessarily philosophies, but the way that they executed,
14:41
Speaker 4: the way that they actually played is different.
14:45
Speaker 5: And I think that's super interesting.
14:46
Speaker 2: Yeah.
14:47
Speaker 3: So for the again, those for who are listening, the
14:49
Speaker 3: Bucks of the three ran the fewest percentage of play
14:53
Speaker 3: action passes at nineteen percent. The Eagles were at twenty four.
14:56
Speaker 2: The Packers were at twenty eight.
14:59
Speaker 3: Well, we'll get to a later and I think this
15:01
Speaker 3: that matters as much as how much of that came
15:03
Speaker 3: from an under center formation as opposed to just this
15:07
Speaker 3: play action percentage that you're giving me is just.
15:10
Speaker 2: Overall play action, right, correct?
15:12
Speaker 3: All right, So the Packers, who are middle of the
15:17
Speaker 3: oh no, no, they had the highest percent of play action,
15:20
Speaker 3: were also really good at it from an EPA.
15:22
Speaker 5: Standpoint, Yeah, they really were.
15:25
Speaker 4: They had an excellent EPA of zero point two eight,
15:28
Speaker 4: and then the Buccaneers had a good, actually really good
15:32
Speaker 4: ep A play action EPA of.
15:33
Speaker 5: Point one to eight.
15:34
Speaker 4: And then you look at the Eagles and they're at zero. So,
15:38
Speaker 4: I mean, they weren't doing anything to add points, but
15:41
Speaker 4: they weren't taking anything.
15:42
Speaker 5: They weren't leading points on the table when they were
15:44
Speaker 5: in action.
15:45
Speaker 2: It was weird.
15:45
Speaker 3: There's zero is actually better than their non play action EPA,
15:49
Speaker 3: which was minus zero point two, yes, or point zero two.
15:52
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, So that that's kind of interesting.
15:56
Speaker 5: It is.
15:57
Speaker 4: And then you look at the Packers and they were
15:58
Speaker 4: still efficient passing under non play action, and then the Buccaneers.
16:03
Speaker 5: It's like the polar opposite.
16:05
Speaker 4: They went from zero point one to eight positive for
16:08
Speaker 4: play action EPA to negative point one six in non
16:12
Speaker 4: play action.
16:13
Speaker 5: So it's really interesting to see how that works.
16:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's fair to say the Packers have
16:17
Speaker 3: the best sort of marriage between the play action and
16:19
Speaker 3: non play action. They have a lot of players that
16:22
Speaker 3: look alike out of the same formations that can be
16:24
Speaker 3: play action cannot be play action.
16:26
Speaker 2: They're really good like that.
16:27
Speaker 5: Yeah.
16:28
Speaker 4: And then again, I put the average separation because I
16:32
Speaker 4: went targeted because I think it's interesting and I do
16:35
Speaker 4: think it's scheme related a lot of the times. And
16:38
Speaker 4: then you look at the Packers in both play action
16:40
Speaker 4: and non play action. They were higher on both, not
16:43
Speaker 4: by much, but I mean, you're not going to see
16:45
Speaker 4: that much difference between these numbers.
16:47
Speaker 3: Right, It is interesting that all three teams had a
16:51
Speaker 3: point two percent increase in average separation using play action
16:56
Speaker 3: the non play action.
16:58
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, exactly point two. That is interesting.
17:01
Speaker 4: It makes sense, right, I mean a lot of one
17:03
Speaker 4: of the benefits of play action is that you suck
17:05
Speaker 4: the linebackers down and you create more space at least,
17:09
Speaker 4: you know, you make them think about that it might
17:11
Speaker 4: be a run when that moment of hesitation can make
17:15
Speaker 4: a big difference, but makes a difference at point too clearly.
17:18
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I always said there's two statements that sometimes people
17:22
Speaker 3: confuse in the NFL that you hear from coaches a lot.
17:25
Speaker 3: They're not contradictory statements, they're just sounded. But you do
17:29
Speaker 3: not need an effective run game to have an effective
17:34
Speaker 3: play action game.
17:35
Speaker 2: Okay, there's no correlation between running the ball well and
17:39
Speaker 2: having a good play action game.
17:41
Speaker 3: However, there is a correlation between running play action under
17:47
Speaker 3: center and succeeding in your pass game. There is a
17:51
Speaker 3: good like going under center, making those linebackers think you're
17:54
Speaker 3: going to run, sucking them in like you just said,
17:57
Speaker 3: and throwing the ball. So yes, there is a correlation
17:59
Speaker 3: between and going under center and livening up.
18:03
Speaker 2: Your play action game. Absolutely, and the Packers do it
18:06
Speaker 2: really well.
18:08
Speaker 3: And one thing I wanted to point out before we
18:11
Speaker 3: get to the real meat of potatoes of motion under
18:13
Speaker 3: center in a huddle is that I would say Matt
18:17
Speaker 3: Lafleur is more like McVeigh and I would expect this
18:21
Speaker 3: from schoe Mannion is a little bit more.
18:23
Speaker 6: Like McVeigh in the adaptability of.
18:25
Speaker 3: His offense than Kyle Shanahan, who is going to run
18:28
Speaker 3: the same variety. He's gonna use a fullback, he's gonna
18:31
Speaker 3: run twenty one twenty two personnel, gonna go under center
18:35
Speaker 3: and shotgun both.
18:36
Speaker 2: But McVeigh, as we all saw this.
18:38
Speaker 3: Year, he used to be wide zone outside zone like
18:41
Speaker 3: the old Shanahan Kubiak run game, but he runs way
18:44
Speaker 3: more inside zone now. He runs between the tackles with
18:47
Speaker 3: Kyon Williams. He's been doing that for a couple of
18:49
Speaker 3: years now. When he had Girley, it was outside old
18:52
Speaker 3: school outside zone with Kien Williams and Blake KRM. He's
18:57
Speaker 3: way more inside zone duo. And then also he uses
19:00
Speaker 3: three I mean, who uses three tight ends as much
19:02
Speaker 3: as Sean McVay does. He doesn't even use a fallback.
19:05
Speaker 3: So that's where his system deviates from the Shanahan system.
19:09
Speaker 3: And I think Laflor has taken his cues because over
19:12
Speaker 3: the last two years since they got Josh Jacobs, they
19:14
Speaker 3: actually run like power, they run gap. They're not just
19:17
Speaker 3: a complete zone run team, which is his own spin
19:20
Speaker 3: on it. They've run RPOs with Jordan Love, which is,
19:25
Speaker 3: you know, a shotgun based offense when you're doing RPOs,
19:28
Speaker 3: which is not all under center. So I feel like Lafloor,
19:32
Speaker 3: of all the guys we talk about, maybe him and
19:34
Speaker 3: McVeigh are the most adaptable with their offense. So you
19:37
Speaker 3: hope that that benefits Manion coming here trying to ease
19:41
Speaker 3: or trying to transition, you know, an offense that totally
19:45
Speaker 3: did it one.
19:45
Speaker 2: Way to the way he eventually would like to do it.
19:47
Speaker 2: He's probably going.
19:48
Speaker 3: To have to marry some of the old school Eagles
19:51
Speaker 3: concepts as he gets to where he wants to go.
19:54
Speaker 5: Absolutely.
19:54
Speaker 4: I mean you're not starting from scratch, which is a
19:56
Speaker 4: good thing, but yeah, yeah, I mean adaptability is something
20:00
Speaker 4: the Eagles lacked last year.
20:02
Speaker 5: I feel like they couldn't adapt.
20:04
Speaker 4: I feel that they a lot of the times they
20:05
Speaker 4: had a pretty decent scripted plays and then they couldn't
20:09
Speaker 4: adapt to what the defense was doing. So having that
20:12
Speaker 4: trait actually would be super beneficial I think for this
20:15
Speaker 4: Eagles team.
20:16
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
20:17
Speaker 3: So let's look at those three core tenants that we
20:20
Speaker 3: talk about with the McVeigh and Shanahan, Offens's motion, under center,
20:24
Speaker 3: and no huddle, and compare those.
20:25
Speaker 2: Two the Packers and the Bucks.
20:28
Speaker 4: What jumped out to you with motion I mean both
20:31
Speaker 4: teams used motion at about the same rate. I mean
20:34
Speaker 4: fifty nine percent fifty eight point nine percent respectively for
20:37
Speaker 4: the Packers and Buccaneers, and then the Eagles not surprisingly
20:40
Speaker 4: much lower at forty four percent, higher than I believe
20:44
Speaker 4: it was last year, but still or two years especially
20:48
Speaker 4: two years ago, it was higher than two years ago.
20:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I know this.
20:52
Speaker 3: Is tracked by Warren Sharp, right from Sharp Football is Yeah, yeah,
20:57
Speaker 3: it's it's you know, data and analytics gathering is kind
20:59
Speaker 3: of hard because different people have different numbers, like they
21:04
Speaker 3: generally tend to be around the same number.
21:05
Speaker 2: But I don't know.
21:07
Speaker 3: There are some weird things that I find that are
21:09
Speaker 3: not debatable as far as either formational diversity or things,
21:12
Speaker 3: and yet you find different stats on them. So for sure,
21:17
Speaker 3: but like, for example, I don't know if NFL pro
21:20
Speaker 3: I've been trying to figure out if pistol is include.
21:23
Speaker 3: When they give you your the shotgun versus under center
21:27
Speaker 3: and then you look at the pistol numbers, they don't
21:29
Speaker 3: all mathematically add up to total place. So I'm wondering
21:31
Speaker 3: if they consider pistol a form of shotgun within the
21:37
Speaker 3: or within the shotgun umbrella. So that when you're looking
21:39
Speaker 3: at the totally Okay, so when you're looking at shotgun,
21:42
Speaker 3: you're looking at pistol and conventional gun and anything else
21:46
Speaker 3: that has the quarterback like a couple of yards behind
21:48
Speaker 3: the center, right.
21:50
Speaker 5: I believe that is true.
21:52
Speaker 4: If all the data was available at NFL pro, I
21:55
Speaker 4: probably would use it, but I want to make sure
21:57
Speaker 4: we have important informations.
21:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, all right.
22:00
Speaker 3: So the point is that the Packers and the Bucks
22:03
Speaker 3: run motion about fifteen sixteen percent higher than the Eagles do.
22:09
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then you see they're under center rate and
22:13
Speaker 4: they're almost the same.
22:15
Speaker 5: Again.
22:16
Speaker 4: They Packers have thirty eight point two percent and the
22:19
Speaker 4: Buccaneers had thirty five point three percent, and the Eagles
22:22
Speaker 4: were at twenty three point five percent, which most of
22:25
Speaker 4: that was all towards the end of the year.
22:26
Speaker 2: Anyway.
22:27
Speaker 3: I was just about to say, if you did like
22:29
Speaker 3: the twenty twenty three and twenty four Eagles right motion
22:32
Speaker 3: under center, compared it to twenty five Packers and twenty
22:36
Speaker 3: five Bucks, these numbers would be even more skewed because
22:38
Speaker 3: the Eagles just started dabbling in some of this.
22:41
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's really interesting because I think that was
22:45
Speaker 4: a key part of what the Packers and the Buccaneers did. Like,
22:48
Speaker 4: you don't get almost forty percent if you just pick
22:51
Speaker 4: up that habit near the end, right, And so I
22:54
Speaker 4: think there'd be a little more intentionality with the under
22:56
Speaker 4: center earlier next season. I'm not sure it will be
23:00
Speaker 4: at almost forty percent, but I do think it'll be
23:03
Speaker 4: higher than twenty three point five percent of the Eagles.
23:05
Speaker 2: Yes, I would think so too. I agree.
23:07
Speaker 3: That's where you get into that point of they're gonna
23:10
Speaker 3: they're gonna want to get to where the Packs and
23:12
Speaker 3: Bucks were last year, but that.
23:14
Speaker 2: Might not be an overnight thing.
23:17
Speaker 5: Yeah, now you did it packers, you said, Pats.
23:20
Speaker 2: Oh did I pack? I love?
23:26
Speaker 5: But go ahead, IM sorry. I was just gonna say.
23:28
Speaker 4: The no huddle rate is interesting, yes, because you have
23:32
Speaker 4: the eighteen point five percent for the Eagles, which they
23:36
Speaker 4: found a lot of success in no huddle. Uh, and
23:38
Speaker 4: then you had the Packers and the Buccaneers who both
23:41
Speaker 4: had under ten percent eight point five and six point
23:44
Speaker 4: three respectively, right, And a lot of this what there's
23:49
Speaker 4: a lot of execution issues that the Eagles faced, especially
23:53
Speaker 4: with the play clock, and no huddle somewhat help those issues.
23:59
Speaker 4: I think it also allowed Hurts to you know, make
24:03
Speaker 4: some more adjustments.
24:05
Speaker 5: There was some benefits to it.
24:07
Speaker 2: Yeah.
24:07
Speaker 4: Now I think what's interesting is if they don't have
24:10
Speaker 4: those play clock issues. I really hope they don't because
24:14
Speaker 4: it really hurt the offense. But I wonder if that
24:17
Speaker 4: would affect how they do no huddle, If they do
24:19
Speaker 4: no huddle, how often, the frequency that they do no huddle.
24:23
Speaker 5: I think that they're somewhat correlated.
24:25
Speaker 3: So interesting, No, this is a great, great sort of
24:29
Speaker 3: discussion on how much does Sean Mannion and Josh Grazar
24:33
Speaker 3: have to change and adapt to everything that they do
24:36
Speaker 3: or can they pick and choose some of the things
24:40
Speaker 3: that the Eagles offense has done well, I would say
24:43
Speaker 3: motion I'm sorry.
24:45
Speaker 1: No huddle has been something that Egles have weaponized well up.
24:48
Speaker 3: Until last year, where they would still have a high
24:51
Speaker 3: rate of no huddle, but it was almost like no huddle.
24:54
Speaker 2: But what was if you're going.
24:56
Speaker 3: No huddle but then still snapping the ball with one
24:59
Speaker 3: second on clock, then what is it that you've actually
25:01
Speaker 3: accomplished by going no huddle other than maybe limiting your
25:07
Speaker 3: that your opponent's ability to substitute, But you've still now
25:10
Speaker 3: given your opponent keeping their personnel on the field a
25:14
Speaker 3: lot of time to discern what it is you might
25:16
Speaker 3: want to do. So in this era of positionless play,
25:21
Speaker 3: like you know something is important, but it's not as
25:23
Speaker 3: I mean, I felt like in the early two thousands
25:25
Speaker 3: there were those situational pass rushers who would come in
25:28
Speaker 3: and really help a defense. Now I feel like those
25:30
Speaker 3: guys have become starters. Yeah, and it's and they figure
25:34
Speaker 3: out a way to scheme around the run deficiency element
25:37
Speaker 3: of it.
25:37
Speaker 4: No, I I one hundred percent agree, and it'll be
25:41
Speaker 4: really interesting to see how they operate, particularly with no huddle.
25:46
Speaker 4: But again, you have to use no huddle efficiently. I mean,
25:49
Speaker 4: there has to be intentionality behind no huddle. There has
25:53
Speaker 4: to be like a reason. And like you said, even
25:56
Speaker 4: if they were trying to do it to help with
25:58
Speaker 4: the play clock, it really didn't help that much.
26:00
Speaker 5: I mean, they were still having the issues.
26:02
Speaker 3: I feel like it's the great mystery of the twenty
26:05
Speaker 3: twenty five Eagles, just why because nobody's really had a
26:09
Speaker 3: great answer for it. Why could they not get the
26:14
Speaker 3: play call or the play off before the clock hit
26:17
Speaker 3: one or zero eye It just happened so often that
26:20
Speaker 3: you would have thought that it was intentional, but it
26:22
Speaker 3: makes no sense to want that to be intentional.
26:25
Speaker 2: It just went against It's a detritic.
26:28
Speaker 4: Yeah, when you can give the defensive line the exact
26:33
Speaker 4: moment you're gonna snap the ball, I mean, that just
26:36
Speaker 4: hurts your I mean, especially with the O line, how
26:38
Speaker 4: they'd struggled.
26:39
Speaker 5: It's interesting that they.
26:40
Speaker 4: Struggled a lot more and run than they did pass,
26:42
Speaker 4: but you're giving them time to.
26:44
Speaker 5: Tee up, so like it's it's tough.
26:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just I don't get it. And it was
26:49
Speaker 3: eighteen weeks of it. It's not like it never improved.
26:52
Speaker 3: It was almost as if they didn't view it as
26:55
Speaker 3: an issue when it clearly was. And that part has
26:58
Speaker 3: always made me scratch my head.
27:00
Speaker 4: The whole way that last year ended is just frustrating,
27:03
Speaker 4: especially with the personnel's mad.
27:06
Speaker 3: Speaking of head scratching, sam our friend Dennis Selman, who
27:11
Speaker 3: does a lot of analytics to work and chart and
27:14
Speaker 3: graph compiling, and he.
27:15
Speaker 2: Does some work with phl y.
27:17
Speaker 3: He's always good for the hitch route versus out route
27:21
Speaker 3: versus the like what the rest of the NFL does.
27:24
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I mean equals loved the hitch route for
27:28
Speaker 4: some reason it didn't work a lot of the time,
27:32
Speaker 4: but Green Bay loved the.
27:33
Speaker 5: Out route more than most.
27:36
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then you look at the Buccaneers and there's
27:38
Speaker 4: smack dab in the middle.
27:40
Speaker 2: They really are.
27:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's probably where you want to be because it
27:43
Speaker 3: means you have a nice balance of one versus the other.
27:47
Speaker 5: Yeah.
27:48
Speaker 4: The thing is, though, if you're gonna go extreme for
27:52
Speaker 4: hitch and out, it's I feel like it's out every time.
27:56
Speaker 3: Because it's either your guy or the out of like
28:00
Speaker 3: there's less risk involved or yeah, such a deeper route also.
28:04
Speaker 4: Well, I mean speedouts are fine too, my Actually, that's
28:08
Speaker 4: preferable to me a lot of the times if you
28:10
Speaker 4: have access. And what I mean by that is if
28:12
Speaker 4: the corner is playing off, I love a speed out there,
28:17
Speaker 4: and then you just that's your read. If you have access,
28:20
Speaker 4: you take the speed out, take the four or five
28:22
Speaker 4: yards every time, and then force them to play you know,
28:25
Speaker 4: cloud or overtire. And when you do that, you can't
28:28
Speaker 4: run the speed out. Then it's a must convert outside,
28:31
Speaker 4: release go or something like that. Does that effect or
28:34
Speaker 4: a deeper route. But if they're going to play off,
28:36
Speaker 4: you and a lot of NFL defenses like to play
28:40
Speaker 4: off and give access take advantage of it. So I'm
28:44
Speaker 4: a big proponent of the out route, particularly on in
28:47
Speaker 4: certain plays. I mean a lot of the times, if
28:49
Speaker 4: you can get a first read and just get four
28:51
Speaker 4: yards for like Devanta Smith on a speedout, I feel
28:55
Speaker 4: like you take it. I feel like you take it
28:56
Speaker 4: every time. And then or if you know, assuming Aj
29:00
Speaker 4: rounds with the team, you do Aj Brown and he's
29:03
Speaker 4: a person that can make plays once he has the
29:05
Speaker 4: ball in his hands, or some.
29:07
Speaker 5: Type of player I prefer.
29:09
Speaker 4: And you can do it also from the slot, but
29:12
Speaker 4: I think it's better from the outside. I think if
29:14
Speaker 4: your expert yr Z can run a speed out with access,
29:18
Speaker 4: you do it every time. I mean we did it
29:19
Speaker 4: at Penn State. All that was our like big philosophy.
29:22
Speaker 4: We take what they give us. And even in like
29:25
Speaker 4: an RPO, A lot of the times, like our read was,
29:28
Speaker 4: if there's access, you pull the ball and then you
29:30
Speaker 4: throw the speed out right super easy play. It doesn't
29:34
Speaker 4: always generate a ton of yards, but it keeps you
29:36
Speaker 4: on schedule.
29:37
Speaker 5: And I'm a big chant.
29:38
Speaker 3: Of it, and I help when you were there, they
29:39
Speaker 3: had got did they have Godwin there or was he
29:41
Speaker 3: gone already?
29:41
Speaker 5: He was gone, he was gone.
29:42
Speaker 2: But they had handler right, Yeah.
29:44
Speaker 5: They had John dottson.
29:46
Speaker 3: John Dotson right, And wasn't there somebody else who I'm
29:49
Speaker 3: not thinking of who's.
29:50
Speaker 2: Was pretty good.
29:52
Speaker 5: Our tight ends were pretty good tight ends.
29:54
Speaker 2: Yeah. They could run the outs too, Yeah, absolutely.
29:57
Speaker 3: Uh, this is such a strange chart and trying to
29:59
Speaker 3: figure out if they're like a thread between.
30:01
Speaker 1: Good offenses and bad offenses. Really not, because like you see.
30:04
Speaker 3: The Bills and the Broncos and the Lions and the
30:08
Speaker 3: Cardinals are all in that same quadrant and you wouldn't
30:11
Speaker 3: equate those offenses no each other.
30:15
Speaker 2: In the middle where.
30:16
Speaker 3: The Bucks are is also where the Jets are, but
30:18
Speaker 3: also where the Jaguars are, and the Falcons and the
30:21
Speaker 3: Browns but also the Chiefs.
30:24
Speaker 2: So just just a weird on. The Patriots are there too,
30:29
Speaker 2: We're right up there with the Bears.
30:30
Speaker 3: So very very odd combination. But because that's these are
30:34
Speaker 3: just two routes.
30:35
Speaker 2: I mean there's obviously other routes that other teams specialize in.
30:39
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think there's too much to clean into
30:41
Speaker 4: like this makes you successful if this doesn't. But I
30:44
Speaker 4: do think the Eagles being where they were in hitches
30:47
Speaker 4: and not changing. It just shows like them they were
30:51
Speaker 4: just stubborn last year.
30:52
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it just is frustrating because it didn't work.
30:56
Speaker 5: It just didn't work and they didn't change anything.
30:59
Speaker 3: By the way, for those who can only listen to
31:01
Speaker 3: the pod, So the Eagles led all teams in hitch
31:05
Speaker 3: routes twenty four percent, and the next closest team from
31:11
Speaker 3: a hitch route perspective, ironically was Kellen Moore Saints, but
31:15
Speaker 3: that was about I'm gonna say eighteen maybe nineteen, like
31:20
Speaker 3: nineteen percent. Leagles are far and away above them, and
31:26
Speaker 3: then maybe the next would be Minnesota or Washington right
31:29
Speaker 3: in that eighteen and a half to nineteen percent range.
31:31
Speaker 4: And then not only that, but the Eagles were also
31:35
Speaker 4: the second least team to have out routes.
31:38
Speaker 5: The Giants were the only ones with.
31:39
Speaker 3: Less right then the Colts were right on it with
31:43
Speaker 3: them at around fourteen percent.
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Speaker 3: Really fantastic stuff. I think that this did a really
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Speaker 3: nice job of just giving you an idea of what
35:16
Speaker 3: these two coordinators backgrounds are. We talk about motion, we
35:20
Speaker 3: talk about under center, we talk about that right timing rhythm,
35:25
Speaker 3: and those stats really show that, you know, the Packers
35:28
Speaker 3: were good.
35:28
Speaker 2: They had a good marriage of their offense.
35:30
Speaker 3: I think if we had taken a three year look
35:32
Speaker 3: at the Bucks, people would have noticed that their offensive
35:34
Speaker 3: metrics were a lot better than.
35:37
Speaker 2: Last year because of all the injuries.
35:40
Speaker 3: So but look, this is what people want for the
35:42
Speaker 3: Eagles offense, Sam, change.
35:45
Speaker 5: I mean change they got.
35:46
Speaker 3: Let's yeah, theoretically, yes, we have to see how it
35:50
Speaker 3: plays out. All right, that'll do it for this episode
35:54
Speaker 3: of Inside the Data. And I know next week we're
35:56
Speaker 3: going to be back and we're going to take a
35:58
Speaker 3: look at the jump in the salary cap and explain
36:01
Speaker 3: what that means for the NFL, for the Eagles, for
36:03
Speaker 3: certain contracts that the Eagles have right now, and what
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Speaker 3: that might look like compared to how the jump in
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Speaker 3: the cap might help or hurt or whatever. We'll get
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Speaker 3: all into it when we get back next week. Sam,
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Speaker 3: thanks for all your work.
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Speaker 2: Man. Absolutely all right, you've been.
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Speaker 3: Watching or listening to Inside the Data here on Inside
36:22
Speaker 3: the Birch for Sam Finkel.
36:23
Speaker 2: I'm Jeff Mosher.
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Speaker 3: We'll catch you all on the next one.