Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 29: Basic Witches and Salem Vibes

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Ep. 29: Basic Witches and Salem Vibes · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

0:00
Welcome to the We Are More podcast.
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My name is Alyssa.
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And my name is Bri.
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We are two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism.
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We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach His
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word.
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And apparently that's controversial.
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Get comfy.
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You're a witch.
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That's really hurtful.
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Is it?
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I think, I think so.
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With the way you said it, your inflections.
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I have so many songs to go with that.
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So periodically Bri will just sing, which is pretty par for the course.
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Yeah, it's pretty, pretty much me.
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Yeah, that sounds right.
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I've been thinking, okay, have you seen those things?
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This is old.
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This is like, I'm out of date.
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But have you seen where people go, oh, if I had a starter pack, or if this character
1:03
from this show had a starter pack.
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If I had a starter pack, it would most likely be Birkenstocks, Claw Clips, those waffle
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shirts from Aerie, a Starbucks.
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So you're a basic witch is what you're telling me.
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A bottle of wine and a DJ.
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A DJ?
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I'd be a DJ.
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Oh, you'd be a DJ.
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Not like you'd have one following you around.
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No, we tried that.
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That didn't work.
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So happy Halloween, everyone.
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Happy Halloween.
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Spooky scary skeletons.
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Except not skeletons.
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We're talking about witches.
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We are.
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But you do have, I bought Bree a painting for her birthday.
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And it has spooky scary skeletons on it.
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Except the title of it is The Winds of Change.
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I need you guys to know, I was okay.
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I love to gift give, it's just like part of who I am as a human.
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And Brianna constantly, out of nowhere, goes, do you feel that?
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And there's no context, okay?
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You're talking about something totally different.
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She goes, can you feel that?
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It's the winds of change.
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And so I found this painting.
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And it's a Disney still from, what's it from?
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Fantasia.
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Fantasia, that's it.
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And I mean, we're not like big Fantasia fans or anything, but we are big Disney fans.
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And it's entitled The Winds of Change.
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Guys, I've never been more proud of myself.
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I just need to get a nail and it's going up in my wall.
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I think we have nails.
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I haven't been able to find one lately.
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Absolutely certain.
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But in this house somewhere, there is a nail to be had.
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But do you know what that quote is from?
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I don't.
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Really?
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No.
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Where?
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Where in Monsters Inc is there talking about spooky scary skeletons?
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Randall, he goes, do you feel that?
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Oh, The Winds of Change.
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The Winds of Change.
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Oh.
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I was still on spooky scary skeletons.
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Oh, that, I mean, there are skeletons in Fantasia that-
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But there aren't in Monsters Inc.
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Listen.
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Oh, this is a really different movie than I thought.
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It is.
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Monster skeletons.
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And they will send shivers down your spine.
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Oh, good.
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And anyways.
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So I'm super proud of the fact, and I recognize that this was none of our doing, but I'm so
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proud that this is coming out on Halloween.
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This was God's timing.
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It just makes me feel very accomplished.
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I feel so professional.
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On Halloween, we're talking about witches.
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I'm very excited.
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So guys, I have done an inordinate amount of research.
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Guess what?
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Brie has done none.
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I have done none.
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But Brie researched the last episode.
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Yeah, that's good enough.
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It's fine.
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And also, I have been contributing nothing due to the plague.
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That's okay.
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She had the plague.
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Very appropriate for witches.
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I feel like had is not the term.
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Has.
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Has.
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Still going on.
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Do people get over pneumonia?
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It's a real question.
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Continuous plague.
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I think it might go on till I die, which might be tomorrow.
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This might take all my life.
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But at least if I die tomorrow, I have enough money to really live it up for the next day.
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Live like it's your last day on earth.
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And your last day on earth is today.
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If today is my last day on earth, I'm ditching all you people.
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I'm going to Disney.
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See you bye.
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Very Super Bowl of you.
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Speaking of the Super Bowl, for the day after Black Friday, we have very cool shirts.
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We'll get on topic at some point.
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I like how we're like, speaking of Super Bowl, I have no idea when the Super Bowl is.
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It's not that day.
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It's not Black Friday.
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But football, there was a train of thought there.
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We like to cause waves because it's who we are as people.
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I don't know if you all have noticed.
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But our family is very into like football, particularly on Thanksgiving Black Friday.
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I don't think particularly on.
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I think it's continuous.
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They love football.
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All the time.
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We have to be present for it on the holidays because we're all together in one big house
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for like four days.
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And so for the last, I don't know, for one of the games on Black Friday, I think there's
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multiple games on Black Friday.
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Do not look at me.
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I have no idea.
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But we ordered shirts and a hoodie for my daughter that all say, go Taylor's boyfriend.
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And I'm so excited about it.
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They're still together.
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I don't even care.
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My boss texted me this morning and he was like giving me a list of things to do.
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And at the end, he's like, go blue.
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And I said, is there a game today?
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Go football.
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And he goes, Michigan versus Michigan State is playing I think tomorrow.
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Oh, really?
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Oh, well, go blue then.
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I have made a family brand out of being, if you are not from Michigan, go blue is like
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U of M, University of Michigan.
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And if you say go green, it's Michigan State.
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And I have made a personal brand out of being a Michigan State fan, despite the fact that
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I could not possibly care less about any sport ever because Alyssa solely likes to push the
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buttons of everybody around her.
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Our whole family is U of M fans.
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And I think it's hilarious.
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And whenever anybody asks me about it, I very seriously just say, well, I look better in
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green.
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Yeah.
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And the looks that I get.
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It's worth it.
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It goes better with my eyes.
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It does.
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And my hair.
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It does.
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My personality.
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You know.
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And on to witches.
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So today, we're going to be talking about the Salem witch trials and also the Hartford
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witch trials and also the Pendle witch trials because I did so much research.
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Proud of you.
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Hartford just reminds me of Gilmore Girls.
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I mean, that's exactly where it was.
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So there you go.
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Fantastic.
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So we'll be talking about the Gilmore Girls witches.
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Hope you guys are prepared.
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So we're going to start with the Salem witch trials because I mean, I think that's probably
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why you're all here.
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That's the most famous ones for us here in the United States.
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So the Salem witch trials were between February of 1692 and May of 1693.
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So not like a long time.
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I just almost made a joke about 1692.
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Was it an inappropriate joke?
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No.
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Then make the joke.
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I'm going to sail the ocean blue.
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Well, that's wrong.
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I know.
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Anyway, so I think we think of this as a long period in history.
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And the reality is it was just over a year.
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And really, most of it happened in the summer between those two.
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So the summer of 1692 was when it...the FUROR.
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Can I say something stupid?
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Okay.
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When I think Salem witch trials, I do not think the United States of America.
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Well, I mean, they were still colonies.
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Yeah.
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But I just...I picture it in England.
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Okay.
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Well, that's wrong.
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I can't help you there.
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I just don't want to be associated with it.
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I'm like, send it over the ocean.
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Well, in England...well, in Europe, I guess, between...lots of research, guys.
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Between the early 15th and the early 18th century, 500 people were executed for witchcraft.
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Across the pond.
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So is across the pond.
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So when you do talk about witch trials, globally, Salem is kind of just a blip.
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But for us, because it happened in the country we're living in, and it happened a lot later
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than most of the European witch trials, it seems like in Europe they had kind of...they
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thought they moved on, they thought they were better than this now.
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You know, like, we've moved on, we are better.
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Yeah, like we're more educated, we don't think about this anymore, whatever.
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And then all of a sudden, Salem happens like 80 years after the main ones in Europe.
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Or behind the times.
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Yeah.
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And so it was kind of a big deal.
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So the Salem witch trials started with two young girls.
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One was 9, one was 11.
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Oh, they were babies.
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They were very young.
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I mean, that's my daughter's age, so you're talking about young, young.
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I'm sorry.
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This big of drama started with preteens?
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Yeah.
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What the heck is this?
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We have preteen drama in our history?
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Preteen drama.
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I mean, probably a lot.
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My gosh.
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So their names were Betty Parris and Abigail Williams.
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Now Betty was the daughter of the Reverend Parris.
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So he was the pastor of the Salem area at the time.
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So he would have had a lot of power and influence.
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And then Abigail was her cousin, Betty's cousin.
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And I believe Abigail was living with them at the time.
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And all of a sudden, the girls start acting real weird.
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As all 9 and 11 year olds do.
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But like they're contorting their bodies.
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They just watched The Exorcist and were confused.
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Leave them be.
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They were in the 1690s?
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Yep.
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I don't think so.
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They were just trying to be cheerleaders out in their backyard.
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So they're starting to do weird things.
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They're saying weird things.
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Strange, right?
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Now there's no videos of this.
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I can't sit here and tell you this is exactly what they did.
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They were starting their periods and they had hormones.
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I mean, they were 9 and 11.
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That's what was happening.
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I can tell you right now.
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But I think because they were in the Reverend's house, obviously there was precedent for witch
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trials.
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This was not a new concept.
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It was kind of an old concept.
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But when witch trials come to town, who becomes the most important figure?
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True.
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The Reverend, right?
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The Exorcist.
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I don't think he was exercising anybody.
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I haven't seen The Exorcist all the way through, so all my references probably don't make sense.
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Alright, well, you people out there that are going to watch it tonight because it's Halloween,
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don't listen to Brie.
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So these two girls, they accused three women of being witches.
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I think the wording was afflicting them, so essentially coming to them in their dreams
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and scratching them or attacking them, things like that.
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Yeah, basically.
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So they accused three women and those three women...
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Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
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So the three women were Tituba.
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Whoa, watch your mouth.
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So she was actually the slave of Reverend Paris.
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So she's in their household, she's an easy target, right?
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Absolutely.
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She's marginalized, she's not important in society.
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No one will miss her when she's gone.
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Right, so they accused her as one of them.
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The other two were Sarah Good and Sarah Osborne.
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Oh, I've heard of them.
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So these were all women kind of on the outskirts of society.
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How can you accuse someone whose last name is Good?
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Like the Good Witch?
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They did.
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She was the Good Witch of the North.
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I don't think so.
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Like Glinda!
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So one of them was younger, pregnant, she had to beg for money because...
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Was she 12?
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Maybe.
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Not that young.
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But she was begging for money, so again, outskirts of society, not an important person, not someone
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that the girls would have been concerned about in any way.
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And then the other woman was an older woman who, from some accounts that I read, had recently
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stopped going to church.
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Oh, convenient.
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Yeah, was someone that wasn't super well liked, you know, again, on the outskirts of society.
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So I feel like putting myself in these 9 and 11 year old shoes, that makes sense, that
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they would try to pick people who wouldn't be missed or weren't connected well or...
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Well who's gonna question that?
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These are already people that if we kick them off the island, nobody's gonna care?
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Which is horrifying.
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Poor unfortunate souls.
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Right.
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But at the same time...
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Sea Witch.
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I caught it.
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I caught it.
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Sea Witch.
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Thank you.
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But at the same time, if they had started off accusing really important people, they
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probably would have been dismissed.
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Even though they did have some level of status, they were related to the Reverend.
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As two children.
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Right.
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But they had more status than say, these women.
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So what happened is Tichyba, who's the slave, she confesses.
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She says she is associated with the devil, she was coming to them in their dreams, whatever.
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Now she confesses because allegedly she was beat very badly by Reverend Paris.
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She was forced into it.
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Right.
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Right.
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However, the deal was also throughout all of the Salem Witch Trials, the deal was if
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you confess and you blame a bunch of other people, you won't be killed.
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Which makes zero sense.
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None of this makes any sense.
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Our history sucks.
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But that was kind of the deal.
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So on both sides, on the one side she's getting beaten and told you're going to confess to
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this whether you like it or not.
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And then on the other side, she's trying to save her own life.
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Which I mean, can you blame her for heaven's sake?
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And I mean, she's in that household.
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There's these two girls that she's probably been caring for for as long as they've been
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alive.
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She probably feels maybe protective of them in some way.
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I'm just speculating.
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Yeah, for sure.
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So the other two women did not confess.
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As they shouldn't, Sarah's.
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The Sarah's did not confess.
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Now the Sarah that was pregnant, the younger Sarah, she was actually already a mother and
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her daughter was now having to be raised by someone else.
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And she had her baby while in prison.
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The baby passed away, unfortunately.
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And then once she had the baby, she was accused, found guilty, and hanged.
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The other Sarah, I believe, died in prison.
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Because she was old.
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Why do we always think of burning the witches when they were hanged?
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So none of the US witches were burned.
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Now that's not to say that didn't happen other places.
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But when you see, like Brie was telling me about, the reason we were doing this episode
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is because Brie saw some shirts that said they didn't burn witches, they burned women.
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And there's definitely precedent for burning.
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But in the United States, particularly in Salem, there were 20 people that were accused
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of witchcraft.
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And there were almost 200 that were accused.
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But there were 20 that were accused and convicted and executed.
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And they were all hanged.
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And there was one additional man that was crushed.
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We'll get there.
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Like a tomato.
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I mean, it was quite graphic.
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I read some graphic stuff.
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It's not great.
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But, so that was the start of things.
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And that was in March of 1692 that they were accused, that they were then, you know, went,
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started on this whole path, right?
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And that started a crazy amount of crap.
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So in the end, there were four main girls that were accusing people.
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So it was Betty Abigail, and there was Ann Putnam, who was 12, and Elizabeth Hubbard,
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who was 17.
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And these four girls are primarily responsible for accusations, okay?
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So they start the path.
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Now, there's a lot of control around them.
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And you have to ask, where's the control coming from?
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Satan.
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I don't think that's it.
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I mean, you could make that argument.
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But a lot of the control is coming from the men around them.
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Now these two first little girls, they're acting super weird.
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There's actually some theories as to why.
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One of the theories is that-
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Periods.
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That's your theory.
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I don't know that that's been substantiated.
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But one of the theories is that they had a very heavily rye-based diet, and rye can get
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a fungus in it.
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There's a fungus among us.
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That can make you act super weird.
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So that's one theory as to why that might have started.
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But remember that the father here is the reverend who has something to gain.
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Now later on, another one of the women that gets accused, I believe it's Anne Putnam's
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father.
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So Anne starts acting weird too, right?
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And her dad is feuding with this woman whose land kind of backs up to his.
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They've been feuding for a long time.
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She is an upstanding member of the community.
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She goes to church.
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She's like everybody's grandma.
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Everybody loves her.
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The BFF.
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Except Mr. Putnam.
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So Mr. Putnam now tells, in theory, the theory is, that he tells his daughter, accuse her.
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That way we'll get her land.
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Because she was in control of it, and women didn't have a lot of rights in the first place.
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So the fact that she had any control of this property, she's hanging on by a thread.
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All he needs is one little thing to break that thread.
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Oh, you're going to sing a song.
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A tiny little...
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The rumor weed.
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You're on the rumor weed.
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The rumor weed.
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Yeah.
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Never mind.
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At least I knew where that one was going.
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So then you've got that man in power.
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Then you've got the judges, the magistrates, the religious leaders that come in to decide
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the fate of those who are accused.
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Saying guilty or not guilty.
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Always guilty.
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And they're perpetuating it in a really horrific way.
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Because like I said, the deal is, if you want to be found innocent, you have to say, yes
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I'm in line with the devil, but plus also, here's four other people that I saw in line
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with the devil.
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Which is crazy.
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It's all about power, right?
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So about 200 people, not quite 200, but right around 200 people were accused over a very
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short amount of time.
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Think of how many, almost every day you're having these cases.
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And actually there were a couple of animals too that were tried.
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There was a dog.
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What?
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And I want to say a pig.
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Were they allowed to speak up for themselves?
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I don't know, but they were executed.
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This is very Charlotte's Web.
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It's very strange.
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I don't like that.
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Dr. Dolittle and whatnot.
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It's wild.
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But think of how often this is happening.
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This is almost constant.
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And then you look at why.
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I want to get through this one so that we can talk about some of the other trials too.
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But oh, I'm sorry.
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By the end there were 10 women and girls that said they were afflicted by witchcraft.
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So those four that I said before were the main four, but by the end there was like a
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group of 10 of them.
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And they would go in and they would provide something called spectral evidence.
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So remember-
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Like the moon and the stars?
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Not quite.
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Remember that this is a legal court in the United States.
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Now this wasn't the United States at the time.
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It was colonies.
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But still, this is a legal proceeding.
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And this group of girls, however many there were accusing you at the time, would stand
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up in court and they would present what they would call spectral evidence.
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So that's where they can see something.
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So if I was to be like, Brianna is scratching my eyes out-
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With my third eye?
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Yeah.
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And ripping my leg off and whatever.
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I couldn't think of anything else.
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That was the first thing that came to my mind.
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The first thing that came to my mind is, she's ripping my leg off.
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But they would present this spectral evidence.
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They would contort, they would look crazy, they would whatever.
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And that was taken as evidence against the people being accused.
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I want to say so much that like, oh, they're so stupid back then, but I guess it's not
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like they had access to the internet.
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Well that time was very different.
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It was definitely very different.
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But a huge part of what's happening here is, like we said, power dynamics, selfishness,
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a lack of consideration for other people, a lack of ability to consider other people.
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Some of these girls that are accusing people, one of them was a servant who started having
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the convulsions and whatever, which again could have been caused by Ry.
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It could have been caused by something actually going on in the environment.
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And her master, I don't really know what, her boss, she was a servant, not a slave,
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so that's kind of a complicated terminology.
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But he beat her really badly because he didn't believe in the witch trials and he said, not
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in my house.
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So then, long story short, that's John Proctor and his wife were both accused.
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And he was one of the men that was hanged because she did turn around.
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At first she apologized.
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She said, oh so sorry, didn't mean it, whatever, because he had hurt her and she was scared
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of him.
23:37
But then the girls turned on her, the group of girls, and said, no, now we're going to
23:44
accuse you of being a witch because you're saying we're all lying.
23:49
So now she's got to turn back around.
23:52
So she accuses him and his wife again and he is hanged, the wife is not because she
23:55
was pregnant and ends up getting pardoned in the end.
24:00
It's all about power dynamics and where does the power lie?
24:05
And you've got these ten girls that had no power in their lives.
24:11
And I don't want to excuse what they did in any way.
24:15
If you have zero power and then you go from having zero to all of this power and you don't
24:21
know how to handle yourself, and if you give up even a little bit of that power then they're
24:27
going to turn on you.
24:28
Now it's a game of survival too.
24:31
So I think it's, because the whole time I'm researching I'm asking myself, why are women
24:37
accusing women?
24:40
Why are these marginalized people accusing more marginalized people?
24:46
And I think it boils down to if they had accused prominent members of the community, if they
24:52
had accused men, if they had accused the pastor.
24:57
People that were important, and unfortunately that was not the case for most women.
25:02
Most women wouldn't have been considered important.
25:05
So they accused the less important to get their own leg up.
25:10
Because that's what worked for them.
25:12
And in the end, what stopped all of this, and this is a little bit wild to me, so what
25:18
stopped it in the end, again, 200 people have been accused, we've been going through trials
25:25
for a year, is that the girls accused the governor of Massachusetts' wife of being
25:33
a witch.
25:35
And so now he's like, okay, we're not going to take spectral evidence anymore, and we're
25:41
done, we're out.
25:43
I wonder if they knew that that would stop it.
25:49
Years later, quite a few of them formally publicly apologized for the whole situation,
25:56
as did quite a few of the magistrates.
26:00
There was one guy, kind of like the head judge, he to his death never apologized and essentially
26:07
said I was doing God's work.
26:09
Evie- He doubled down.
26:10
Bekkah- He doubled down.
26:11
Evie- Just like the KFC sandwich.
26:13
Bekkah- Oh, the double chicken garbage?
26:16
Evie- Yeah, nasty.
26:19
One of the videos that I saw, and I watched a lot of videos, I read a lot of articles,
26:24
but one of the videos that I saw, I think the most impactful thing that they said was
26:30
these are some of the truest Christian martyrs.
26:33
Bekkah- Explain.
26:35
Evie- These would have been the people, the 20 people that died.
26:40
21 actually, because one was crushed.
26:42
Just real gross, his tongue came out.
26:46
Bekkah- Ew!
26:47
Stop it!
26:48
It's Halloween!
26:49
Evie- Oh, for Halloween.
26:51
We love to talk about-
26:52
Bekkah- We're talking about death!
26:53
I don't know what to tell you.
26:55
The hanging was not a great time either.
26:58
But they said that these 21 particular people were the ones that refused to say yes I did
27:07
it.
27:08
Now it's really hard to blame the other 180 people-ish, because that's scary and you're
27:15
saving your own butt.
27:16
But at the same time, the 20 people that died, the 21 people that died, refused to say that
27:25
they were witches.
27:28
They refused to say they were in line with the devil.
27:31
Now you can say for whatever reason, but I would guess that for a lot of them it was
27:35
based on their own faith.
27:38
I'm not gonna align myself with that.
27:41
I'm not ever gonna say that I did that.
27:43
At the very least, they don't want to lie.
27:45
Bekkah- Right.
27:47
And so these people, now were all of them great?
27:50
No.
27:51
John Proctor, not a good man.
27:54
But they were martyrs for their beliefs at the end of the day, which because it's a Puritan
28:00
culture were mostly Christian beliefs.
28:03
And I just thought that was so impactful.
28:05
I've never heard it talked about like that.
28:08
That these people were Christian martyrs.
28:11
And what a way to turn that story on its head.
28:15
Think about that.
28:16
Put yourself in that situation.
28:17
What would you do?
28:20
Would you stick to your guns and know that you're facing death?
28:25
Or would you lie and accuse someone else?
28:29
That's a tough choice.
28:30
Just to save your own butt.
28:32
Bekkah- Well I mean only 10% of them did that.
28:36
So it's a very small percentage and I think that's probably representative of what would
28:41
actually happen if this happened today.
28:43
It's very hard to blame people for when you're facing death, working to save themselves,
28:50
and yet at the same time, the people who paid the ultimate price, we call them witches.
28:57
Still.
28:58
We call them the Salem Witches.
29:02
And that's gotta be, I mean they're not on earth anymore, but that's pretty rough.
29:10
I just thought that was so impactful.
29:13
And remember that 70% of the people in the Salem Witch trials that were hanged were women.
29:22
It wasn't all of them, but it was a huge percentage of those who were accused and those who were
29:31
hanged.
29:32
Bekkah- Yeah, I'd love to dive deeper sometime into women turning on women and how that is
29:37
not a new topic.
29:41
We're doing that today.
29:43
In so many ways, just simple things like, oh you don't homeschool your kids?
29:49
I do.
29:50
Shame on you.
29:51
Or ooh you're going to work?
29:53
Oh you shouldn't.
29:54
You should really, like your greatest calling is to be a wife and mother.
29:57
You should want and love to stay at home.
30:00
Or you're celebrating Halloween.
30:03
Oh yeah!
30:05
That's a huge one.
30:06
I remember we've always, we didn't really come from a family that didn't celebrate Halloween,
30:11
but we also went to very conservative churches where there was definitely that group of people
30:17
that was like, you're celebrating the devil.
30:20
Which I think is kind of funny because they don't want to celebrate Halloween, but they
30:23
will celebrate harvest and you can decorate and go get candy.
30:27
And then I mean Christmas is a pagan holiday.
30:32
We stuck a Christian sticker on it, but that doesn't make it a Christian holiday.
30:37
I think it's all about what you choose to do with that day.
30:42
Trick or treating is not inherently demonic.
30:46
We're just getting candy guys.
30:47
I like candy, I don't know what to tell you.
30:48
I love cats!
30:49
You know what my favorite is?
30:52
Those Reese's Fast Breaks.
30:55
They've got like nougat and peanut butter and chocolate.
30:58
It's a great time.
30:59
I like it.
31:00
Take five.
31:01
I know you do.
31:02
Those are hard to find.
31:03
Both of these are hard to find.
31:05
It's like all of the things.
31:06
So sinful.
31:09
So there's a couple of theories of why this got so big in Salem.
31:15
Because there, we'll go into another one that happened in the United States as well, but
31:20
it's interesting because there's a broader picture here.
31:26
So part of it is that the Puritan leadership was starting to feel out of control.
31:33
They were having some wars with the Native Americans and they believed that the Native
31:38
Americans were in line with the devil.
31:42
I realize that that is insane, horrific, ridiculous, but that is what they believed at the time.
31:52
And so in these wars, now they're feeling out of control.
31:56
They're feeling like Satan is coming in because we're at war and we're losing.
32:01
And so because they were, again, losing control, now how do we regain the control of at least
32:08
the people in town?
32:11
Because originally the Puritans had come over to avoid religious persecution, but now they
32:17
were over here and a lot of people were not going to church.
32:22
A lot of people were starting to think differently.
32:24
A lot of people were questioning the reverends, things like that.
32:28
So how do we regain control?
32:30
Well, a really publicized widespread witch hunt might do it.
32:34
G!
32:35
So that's one theory as to why it kind of got so big and why the leaders allowed it
32:44
to get so big.
32:45
Because there were other times where these things got shut down, where it would start
32:49
and they were like, no, this is stupid.
32:51
We're not doing this.
32:53
But here was a perfect reason.
32:56
And one of the resources that I read, it said 1690s New England is much less Puritan than
33:03
1630s.
33:04
So you think about modern day churches, when a pastor starts to lose control, what's the
33:12
first thing that he does?
33:14
Puts more restrictions on the people to try to force them into control.
33:21
Puts more restrictions on the women.
33:24
Not biblically based.
33:26
No.
33:27
But just human based.
33:28
How do we control this big group of people?
33:31
A big group of people is hard to control.
33:33
So tell the women that they can only wear skirts.
33:37
Have an element of fear.
33:38
Right.
33:39
Absolutely.
33:40
Like you think of trauma bonding now, you can create really strong bonds if you have
33:45
a common enemy or a common fear.
33:47
Right.
33:48
So that's exactly what they were doing here.
33:50
Now the next one I'm going to talk about.
33:54
There's so much that goes into this.
33:56
I feel like I watched like 20 hours worth of videos and we're compressing it into not
34:02
that long of a podcast.
34:04
I've just been watching Agatha all along, so I feel like that's my research.
34:08
Oh good.
34:09
Yeah, that's good.
34:10
That'll do it.
34:11
They did have the horrifying Salem witches in that.
34:15
That gives me nightmares.
34:16
Very scary.
34:17
It's very scary.
34:18
If you're not into scary, don't watch it.
34:21
If you're into scary, it's pretty good.
34:23
But anyway, so the next ones I want to talk about were a little bit earlier in time and
34:29
they were the Connecticut witch trials or the Hartford witch trials depending on who
34:33
you ask.
34:34
The Gilmore Girls witch trials.
34:37
Because that's all we know about Connecticut.
34:39
Or Hartford.
34:41
So these happened in a longer period of time, but they're not quite as famous because there
34:46
were less cases tried over quite a long period.
34:51
But it was between 1647 and 1663 and it was the very first large scale witch trials in
34:59
the colonies.
35:00
There were 37 cases tried as opposed to almost 200 in Salem and 11 people were killed.
35:08
Again, most of whom were women.
35:10
What's 11 divided by 37?
35:12
What?
35:13
I don't know.
35:14
I have an English degree.
35:15
You're trying to figure out percentages.
35:16
You should phone.
35:17
Because I feel like that's a bigger percentage of people.
35:22
Percentage wise, oh yeah, a lot more percentage wise.
35:25
If you got accused, you were less likely to survive it.
35:28
But a lot less cases over a long stretch of time as opposed to a single year and then
35:36
you've got almost 200 people.
35:39
So the first woman, the first person, but she was a woman, to be accused, her name was,
35:47
and I don't know how to say this, but Ulce A-L-S-E Young.
35:52
Call her Ulce.
35:54
She was the first person executed for witchcraft likely in the American colonies.
36:00
So ever since we came over, she's our first witch.
36:04
She's the first witch.
36:05
But again, that's really hurtful probably.
36:08
So she was executed in May of 1647 and there are no surviving records about her trial or
36:15
charges.
36:16
So nobody really knows what she was accused of, what the evidence was.
36:22
We just know that she was executed.
36:24
And one of the theories is that she was potentially in line to inherit her husband's land.
36:31
Oh, power move.
36:34
So that's a theory.
36:35
It's not proven for sure, but that's what happened with her.
36:39
So then the first recorded confession of witchcraft, so she didn't confess to it that we are aware
36:47
of, but the first confession was Mary Johnson.
36:51
Why would you be spared if you confessed?
36:54
Doesn't it make more sense?
36:56
If you're confessing, let's get rid of you.
36:59
Yeah, but if you confess and you blame someone else, then the trials keep going and they
37:06
have a vested interest in the trials continually.
37:08
True.
37:09
I don't know, it seems shady.
37:11
So the first confession was from a servant.
37:16
She was a servant named Mary Johnson.
37:18
She was accused of theft in 1648 and then was extensively tortured and interrogated.
37:26
And after that, she confessed to familiarity with the devil.
37:30
Ew.
37:31
Yeah.
37:32
I mean, it's dark and icky.
37:36
Her execution was delayed, but she actually was executed in the 1650s, so even though
37:40
she confessed, she was executed.
37:42
And then these are the three main ones.
37:45
Again, there were 11 people, but these are the three main ones.
37:48
There was Catherine Harrison, who was a former maid servant of one of the captains in the
37:54
area.
37:55
She was born in England and came to America, which poor her because they were done in England.
38:01
They were done killing the witches.
38:03
She's like, I thought I escaped.
38:05
Dang it.
38:06
But she became a wealthy citizen eventually because her husband passed away and she inherited
38:14
his estate.
38:16
She then had a bunch of legal issues and despite the fact, so people were burning her crops
38:21
and killing her livestock.
38:23
Rude.
38:24
She's a woman who owns property and they don't like that and they're trying to drive her
38:28
out.
38:30
And even though people saw it, there were eyewitness accounts of it.
38:35
She was never given any restitution.
38:37
No one was ever charged.
38:38
Well, think about the bystander effect now.
38:41
Just because you see something wrong that's happening doesn't mean people in general are
38:45
going to do something.
38:47
So, her whole situation was a disaster.
38:50
Okay?
38:51
Poor thing.
38:52
So, she's accused of that.
38:54
Then she's accused sometime between 1668 and 1669 and she's accused of breaking the Sabbath,
39:02
which wow, if we're getting accused of that, we are all done.
39:05
All of us are out.
39:06
You did any amount of- Did you turn your head to breathe on the Sabbath?
39:10
You're done.
39:11
I mean, if I don't actually work on a Sunday, it's a miracle.
39:15
Think about every time someone has a Sunday off and they're like, oh, finally I can mow
39:19
the lawn.
39:20
You're screwed.
39:21
You're right.
39:22
You're still doing something.
39:23
Yeah.
39:24
So, she was accused of that, of fortune telling and also of black magic.
39:28
And then they also used spectral evidence against her.
39:31
Her case was real funky.
39:33
So, the first jury-
39:35
Stink?
39:36
Yes.
39:37
The first jury could not decide whether she was guilty or not.
39:40
The second jury did find her guilty, but then the magistrate decided that she was not guilty
39:48
because it was all spectral evidence against her and he didn't like that.
39:53
Some of them-
39:54
How kind of him.
39:55
Some of them turned on it eventually.
39:57
Still not great.
39:58
So, she was actually released, but she was banished from Connecticut.
40:03
So, despite the fact that she was released, all of her property, so she might as well
40:09
be dead.
40:10
All of her livestock.
40:11
I mean, we don't know what happens to her after this.
40:13
I believe her family moves to New York, but we don't know what happens to her from here.
40:18
But whatever did happen, she lost any autonomy.
40:24
Any power, any finances, she lost it.
40:26
It was gone.
40:27
She was literally banished from her home.
40:31
Despite the fact that she's found innocent.
40:33
They banished her.
40:35
Like why?
40:36
I don't know.
40:38
So, there's a really interesting after these things happen process of eventually, after
40:46
these people have died, finding them innocent.
40:48
Okay, so with the Hartford case, Salem has a similar situation, but with the Hartford
40:53
case in particular, in 2012, descendants of those who were executed petitioned to the
41:00
Connecticut government to pardon the victims.
41:03
Because technically, it's still on the books that they are guilty of witchcraft.
41:10
Because these were legal proceedings.
41:13
So technically, it's still there, right?
41:16
So that was in 2012.
41:18
The motion was not passed.
41:19
Maryam- 2012 was a rough year.
41:20
We thought the world was going to end.
41:22
Bekkah- Yeah, and then it did it in 2020.
41:24
Dang it.
41:25
All day.
41:26
But the motion didn't pass.
41:27
Why?
41:28
I don't know.
41:29
I didn't get there.
41:30
Then in 2007, so we're going back a little bit, Addie Avery, who was a descendant of
41:36
one of the women that was killed, petitioned the British government, because remember,
41:41
we were colonies at the time.
41:43
So the British government to acquit the convicted witches.
41:46
They did not.
41:48
I would love to know the reasoning.
41:50
I couldn't tell you.
41:51
I think it's just not important enough.
41:54
It's so long ago that it's like, who cares?
41:58
But clearly, someone cares or no one would bring it up.
42:02
So then in 2017, the town of Windsor, so just Windsor specifically, not the whole of this
42:08
case, but just one town that was involved, unanimously passed a resolution to symbolically
42:15
clear the names of two of the victims that were in their town.
42:18
So they couldn't clear everything, but they symbolically cleared it.
42:22
In 2023, last year, boys and girls, the Connecticut House of Representatives voted 121 in favor
42:31
and 30 against to exonerate those who were convicted of witchcraft.
42:38
Why 30 against?
42:41
They were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
42:47
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
42:52
no, no.
42:53
This is last year.
42:54
That's insanity.
42:55
Last year.
42:56
And a similar situation happened in Salem.
42:57
This was not exclusive.
42:58
Wild.
42:59
Okay, so the last one is the Pendle Witches.
43:02
And the Pendle Witches were in England.
43:04
They were in Lancashire.
43:05
Lancashire?
43:06
Lancashire.
43:07
I think it's Lancashire.
43:08
Lancaster?
43:09
No, that's not Lancashire, England.
43:13
And this was in 1612.
43:15
So this was significantly earlier.
43:17
I don't know if you guys know this, but we're not British.
43:20
Even though sometimes we're talking in accent.
43:24
Sometimes you talk in accent.
43:26
What?
43:27
I don't know.
43:29
So we're going to speed through.
43:31
Only 12 people were accused in this particular case, but the reason that it's significant
43:35
is because it was one of the bigger cases.
43:41
Even though 500 people were executed in Europe, it was over a huge period of time.
43:49
So this was one of the hot spots, right?
43:51
Oh.
43:52
So 12 people were accused.
43:54
Nine women and two men.
43:56
So that's how many were tried at that point.
43:59
And then 10 were found guilty and hanged and one was found not guilty.
44:04
Most of them, so six of these people, were from two feuding families.
44:10
Just like the Hatfords and the Hatfords?
44:13
Hatfields.
44:14
Hatfields and the Pacoys.
44:15
Good job.
44:18
I know history.
44:19
But I think it's important, this one I'm not going to talk a ton about because we're
44:23
getting to the end.
44:24
But I think it's important, again, power dynamics.
44:28
So the way that this started is kind of a wild story.
44:31
So buckle up.
44:33
The original accuser was a man.
44:35
He's walking through the forest.
44:37
He comes upon a beggar woman.
44:39
She asks him for some money.
44:42
Now the current assumption based on current knowledge is that this man likely had a seizure
44:48
or some kind of medical event.
44:50
He passes out.
44:52
Someone finds him, takes him to a local inn.
44:55
They revive him.
44:57
And when he wakes up, he tells this story.
45:01
He says, I met a beggar woman on the road.
45:03
I said, no, I wouldn't give her any money.
45:05
And a dog came out of the forest and started talking to her.
45:09
And the dog said, do you want me to kill him?
45:13
And she said, yes.
45:14
Why wasn't the dog tried?
45:15
Why wasn't there evidence of a dog attack?
45:19
Like there are many questions here.
45:21
There was no dog.
45:23
So he accuses her.
45:24
They bring her in.
45:26
She admits to this after, again, a lot of coercion.
45:32
She's a beggar.
45:33
She has no status in society.
45:36
She just doesn't want to die.
45:38
That's what this boils down to.
45:40
And he actually was going to say, according to records, he was going to pardon her to
45:45
say, forget it, whatever.
45:48
Because I'm insane.
45:49
Probably because he didn't believe himself.
45:50
Yeah.
45:51
Or hot goss time.
46:00
He was trying to do something bad to her.
46:03
And he was like, no, no, no, no, no.
46:04
I'll pardon you.
46:05
Yeah.
46:06
I mean, there are many possibilities.
46:08
This is an old story.
46:10
A lot of it is lost to time.
46:11
But what happens is his son was called because his dad is passed out in this random town.
46:19
His son comes in and is like, heck no, we're accusing her.
46:22
So she ends up being accused of being a witch.
46:24
So then from there, there are two feuding families.
46:28
And they're feuding because both of them are impoverished and they are basically fighting
46:33
over who gets to beg where.
46:37
They also think that there might have been some aspect of natural healing going on.
46:42
So potentially they were using herbs and stuff to try and help heal people.
46:46
Homeopathic?
46:49
Which at the time probably would have been considered witchcraft.
46:52
Which is weird because I feel like all medicine back then was homeopathic.
46:56
Well, yeah, but this one was being done by women.
46:59
Oh, okay.
47:00
I mean, that's it.
47:02
That's what's happening.
47:04
And so in order to save her own butt, she accuses this other family because, hey, they're
47:11
annoying me anyway.
47:12
I'm going to accuse them.
47:13
Now both of these families were led by matriarchs who were in their 80s, both of whom were executed
47:21
along with huge percentages of their families.
47:24
So it didn't work out.
47:25
Sorry, grandma.
47:26
Didn't work out.
47:27
But it's so interesting to dive into this.
47:32
And on Halloween yet.
47:34
On all Hallows' Eats.
47:37
It's so fun to look at these stories and pull them apart in a way I've never seen them before.
47:45
To look at the Salem witches and say, you were martyrs for your faith.
47:52
Instead of saying, oh, you were witches.
47:55
And I think we just, we go along with the story because it's an interesting story.
48:01
It's a wild story.
48:03
It's a spooky story.
48:04
If you go to Salem, it's super kitschy.
48:07
Now I've never been, but I've seen lots of videos.
48:09
Very hocus pocus.
48:10
Yeah.
48:11
And I don't necessarily think there's anything inherently wrong with that.
48:15
Every town has their thing.
48:17
Michigan has a lot of apples.
48:18
There's a lot of apples here.
48:19
Cars.
48:20
Cars, yeah.
48:21
So many cars.
48:22
But I don't necessarily think there's anything inherently wrong with it.
48:27
I also think it's important to dive deeper into these stories and to ask bigger questions.
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Why did it happen?
48:37
Why were women turning on women?
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That's why those shirts are so popular right now.
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They didn't burn or hang witches.
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They killed women.
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Where do we draw the line today?
48:51
Because I was talking to my mom about this.
48:53
Our mom.
48:54
Our mom.
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No, just yours.
48:56
She's been aggravating me.
48:57
Just kidding.
48:58
Sorry, mom.
48:59
You haven't been.
49:00
But I was talking to her about this the other day, and obviously on a much smaller scale,
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but I was relating this to the witchcraft scare of our childhood.
49:12
So we grew up in the era of Harry Potter, and yet, as little conservative Christian
49:18
children, if you said the words Harry Potter, you were getting grounded for a month.
49:25
I remember when you started reading them.
49:27
In high school.
49:28
Yeah, in high school.
49:29
And you had to hide it.
49:30
You put different book covers on your books to hide that you were reading them.
49:34
Because we were rebels.
49:35
But I mean, I'm not talking about little kid at that point.
49:40
I was in high school, I think my sophomore, junior year of high school, and I started
49:45
reading them because my friends were all really into them.
49:48
And still, even by that time, so that was after they'd been out for quite a while, it
49:55
was still, my mom was very, our mom, our mom, just yours, Terrence, was very upset that
50:01
I was reading them initially.
50:02
And our parents have read them, watched movies, very much turned around on that, and are totally
50:08
fine with it.
50:09
In fact, very obsessed, I would say.
50:11
Yeah, we watched them a lot.
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But it's so interesting because you look at the same concept?
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This fear of this unknown witchcraft stuff.
50:28
And yet we were okay with, and I know not all Christian households were, but in ours,
50:34
we watched the show Bewitched.
50:37
We watched The Sword and the Stone.
50:39
We watched...
50:40
What was that one movie with, I think it was Cary Grant, where they buried people in the
50:45
basement?
50:46
NIC.
50:47
Arsenic and Old Lace.
50:48
I don't think they were witches, I think they were just killers.
50:49
They were just killers.
50:50
That is a spooky show.
50:52
They were just killers.
50:53
They were not witches.
50:56
Also you could talk about things like Snow White and Cinderella.
51:01
The Wizard of Oz.
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The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
51:05
Why are those things okay?
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And what are we really scared of as Christians in this setting?
51:14
What are we afraid of?
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Because the reality at the end of the day is the spells in Harry Potter, she just took
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a bunch of words and translated them into Latin.
51:25
Evie.
51:26
They weren't relating it back to Satan at all, it was just magic.
51:30
It was magic, but we are so afraid of getting too close to sin.
51:39
And maybe that's part of what some of the accusers or the magistrates or whoever in
51:45
these cases were doing, not that that makes it any better, but maybe that's what they're
51:50
doing is you're so afraid of stepping a little too close to the sin because then you might
51:56
fall into the sin that you put this big wall up, not just around you, but around everyone
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of faith.
52:05
Evie.
52:06
And now it's not just that sin that's the actual sin, it's for example, really conservative
52:12
Christians back in our time, I don't know if it's true now, but they would say don't
52:16
go to the movies.
52:18
Because not that necessarily the movie that you're going to see is bad, but you don't
52:22
want anybody to think that you're going to see what could possibly be a bad movie.
52:27
And that's real, I know if you're not from the conservative Christian faith, that sounds
52:31
wild, but that's true.
52:33
Bekkah Or don't go into a restaurant that serves alcohol, because even if you're not
52:38
getting alcohol, someone might walk by and think you're getting alcohol and then that
52:42
could damage their faith.
52:43
Evie.
52:44
Right, so now all these things become additional sins, like going to the movies is a sin, going
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to that restaurant is a sin, even though it's not.
52:51
Bekkah Right, so even though Harry Potter is not talking
52:57
about the devil in any way, if you want to argue Agatha all along on Disney, I hear you.
53:06
I hear you.
53:07
But, because there's actual demons in it, it's a little spooky guys.
53:12
But with Harry Potter, there was nothing about that.
53:15
There's magic, there's spells, etc., but there's no worshipping the devil.
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And that's what the Bible says to steer clear of.
53:24
But we had to put a bigger circle around it so that you don't get even close to sin.
53:29
It's the same thing with drinking.
53:32
We talk about wine a lot.
53:34
A lot.
53:35
conservative Christians, at least the spaces that we grew up in, did not drink.
53:43
You do not drink.
53:44
Ever, ever, ever.
53:45
Evie Even though Jesus did.
53:46
Bekkah Not for health purposes, not for anything else, and if you choose not to drink, no issues
53:52
with that.
53:53
100% your own decisions.
53:54
But to look at the entire Christian community and say none of you can drink because the
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Bible says don't get drunk.
54:06
So now we can't drink at all.
54:07
Evie I think more specifically it says don't make anything else an idol.
54:12
So if you're an alcoholic, I do think you're making alcohol into an idol.
54:18
But if you're having a glass of wine, I'm not going to follow you for that.
54:21
Bekkah But we had to draw a big circle.
54:24
And once you draw your own big circle, you gotta draw it for everybody else because you
54:28
don't want to be all alone.
54:29
Because if it's a sin for you, it's gotta be a sin for everybody else.
54:32
We don't understand nuance.
54:34
Evie The idea of misery likes company.
54:38
So if you're miserable, you don't want to be miserable alone.
54:41
So you're going to draw everybody else around you into that.
54:45
Bekkah It's such an interesting, as we relate it all back into the witch trials, I think
54:51
it absolutely is about exerting power over the people around you.
54:56
Whether that's through the church, whether it's through the witch trials, whether it's
55:02
through men telling women what they can wear and what they can do with their bodies, it's
55:07
exerting control.
55:10
It all falls back onto that.
55:12
And what can we do to step out of that?
55:17
Here on this, the Halloween.
55:18
Evie Here on Halloween, we have a Christmas message
55:22
for you.
55:23
Bekkah We do?
55:24
I don't know.
55:25
It'll be really interesting if one of these comes out on Christmas.
55:29
Maybe we'll do the trifecta.
55:31
Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas.
55:32
Evie I think on Christmas we should talk about the ghost stories.
55:37
Bekkah Sure, like a Christmas Carol.
55:40
Alright, so I think that's all we have to talk about today.
55:44
I hope you guys have an amazing Halloween.
55:46
Evie I hope you watch a scary movie, eat some candy, have a good time, and then call into
55:54
work tomorrow.
55:55
Bekkah Oh, I was going to call into work on...
55:58
I was going to pre-warn them, like I'm out on...
56:01
I'm a freelancer so I do what I want.
56:02
I was going to be like, I'm not working on the first, but I've had the plague and I had
56:10
to call out a lot, so I can't do that.
56:12
It's a bummer.
56:13
But I hope that you guys can.
56:15
I think that they should...
56:17
Hot take.
56:18
Controversial take.
56:19
Are you ready for it?
56:20
Halloween should always, always, always be on a Friday.
56:23
Evie A hundred percent!
56:25
Bekkah Why are we doing this to ourselves?
56:27
Evie This is ridiculous, like I don't care about October 31st, I don't care what it is.
56:33
It should just be the last Friday of October.
56:34
Bekkah I'm good with that.
56:36
Friday or Saturday?
56:37
I'm okay with Saturday also.
56:38
Evie Yeah, even better.
56:39
Bekkah Either way.
56:40
All right.
56:41
Well, now that you've heard us rant for a while.
56:44
I love you.
56:45
Woooooo!
56:46
All right, if you know anybody in... let's see.
56:51
Salem.
56:52
If you know anybody in Salem or Massachusetts.
56:56
Or England.
57:00
Or Hartford.
57:01
Any of those places that might want to listen to our craziness.
57:05
Please share this with them.
57:06
Hey, if you know any witches.
57:08
Hey, maybe they would enjoy it.
57:09
I know one just looking at me right now.
57:11
Shut up.
57:12
But we'll see you guys next week for...
57:14
I don't know what yet.
57:15
Ummmm...
57:16
The winds of justice.
57:17
All right, we'll see you next week for The Winds of Justice.
57:24
Bye, we love you.
57:25
Bye.
57:26
I love you.
57:27
I love you.