Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / Divorcing A Narcissist - Part 2

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Divorcing A Narcissist - Part 2 · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate the podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Finding the space for all of you in life and love.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Sally Ann Hartel, and this podcast is for anyone wanting to reclaim and liberate themselves in their relationships and their life.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Wherever you are on your relationship journey, these conversations meet you right there in soulful, deeply supportive DNMs with me and interviews with other gorgeous humans, moving you from where you are to where you most want to be.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: A life and love completely aligned with your deepest desires to have it all on your own terms.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you're seeking a relationship and a life that lights up all of you, you're in the right place.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also like to acknowledge that this podcast is recorded on the traditional lands of the Wurundri people and pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging and acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hello, hello, and welcome back to this episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is actually part two of Divorcing a Narcissist.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if you've not yet listened to the previous episode, I suggest you go back and listen to that first before diving into the second part of tips, strategies, how to divorce a high conflict or narcissistic ex-partner.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Next tip easy to say, not so easy to do, is to stay calm and keep your cool.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever it takes, learn to dial down your reactivity.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: And working with a therapist, counselor, or a coach can be really, really useful and powerful here.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Learn to dial down your reactivity.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Know what your likely triggers are, preempt them and know how to respond rather than react.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Learn to regulate your emotions, learn to regulate your nervous system so you don't react and you don't get hooked back into the same pattern of engaging.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: You can use a grey or yellow rock technique.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't know what that is, I'll drop a link to an article or a resource in the show notes.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: Grey rock or yellow rock can be powerful in dealing with high conflict or narcissistic ex-partner.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: And even though it might be really tempting to fight back, to defend yourself and to try and prove your point that you're right, try to resist this urge.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: That is what your narcissistic ex wants.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: They want engagement, they want to hook you back in.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: So maintaining your composure, staying as calm and as unresponsive and unemotional as you can is your best defense and your best way forward.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's crucial for disarming your narcissistic ex and protecting yourself from more abuse.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: Getting hooked back into the cycle just perpetuates it.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: You need to be the one that breaks the circuit and maintaining a cool, calm grey or yellow rock ex um strategy is really important.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maintaining a neutral tone or a neutral stance, minimizing your reactions may trigger initially more gaslighting behavior, it may it might trigger an escalation, but the more you hold your line, the less you will be affected by the behavior coming in, and that goes back to making sure you've ramped up your self-care.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Gaslighting, toxic engagement, manipulation, it's still going to happen.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: They're still going to throw that hook out to try and pull you back in.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: You just become less affected or less activated by it if you've learned to dial down your emotions to regulate your nervous system.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: You also need to set rock solid boundaries.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Do not let your ex-partner walk all over you.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: You need to protect your well-being, secure your future.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: Think about being future focused.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, where do you want to be in two or five years' time?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Set firm boundaries around yourself to make sure that you can move forward to that.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you have to stay in contact, that is, if you're co-or at least I should say parallel parenting, consider reviewing the boundaries with your lawyer ahead of time.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: So that can also be part of your plan to leave.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: You can actually contact and engage with a lawyer before you leave so that you've got full legal advice, education, empowerment, support.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: Expect that your ex will challenge those limits, will push those boundaries over and over and over again, which is why I say set rock solid boundaries.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Know what is and is not okay for you.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Know how you will and will not communicate with this person.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: Have really firm rock solid boundaries of what is and is not acceptable for you and stick to them.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: The more consistent you are, the more solid and anchored you are, the better your mental and emotional well-being will be.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: You also, in terms of boundaries, it's also really important to review your digital boundaries.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Change all your passwords for any account or anything that they might have, your ex might have access to banking insurance, centerlink, on your online shopping accounts, everything.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: I just suggest you change your passwords to ever to everything.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can also consider blocking or unfriending them on social media, and that includes their extended family members and friends who might be acting as their flying monkeys.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Be really cautious about who you do remain connected with on social media and what you post.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Have rock solid boundaries for yourself around social media use.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: Don't get online after a glass or three of wine and post or comment.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: So review your digital boundaries, change your passwords, consider who you're connected with on social media and be really cautious.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Set good boundaries for yourself about what you post and what you share.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: My next tip is take radical personal responsibility.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: Understand what is and is not in your power to control, but take radical responsibility about your part in creating this dynamic.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I am not victim blaming here.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm suggesting is look to what you can control, your reactions, your responses, your behavior, your tone of voice, your level or degree of engagement, of getting hooked back in, even how much you care about what's said to you or about you by this person.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: And also own the part that you're playing or have played in this relationship, this pattern or this cycle.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: What is it about that that you have capacity to change?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I am not victim blaming here at all.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: What is in your capacity to change?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you need to disengage?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you need to firm up your boundaries?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you need to speak up?
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you need to remain silent?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Take radical personal responsibility for what you can control, and that's all about you.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's about taking back your power.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: So when I say take radical personal responsibility about how you got here, I am not victim blaming.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: I am suggesting that by taking radical responsibility, you move yourself forward, you move out of that victim mode, and you step forward on a healing pathway.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: My next tip is about acceptance, and that is accepting that it is highly likely that you leaving and separating and divorcing that your divorce is going to be difficult, it is going to be high conflict, it is going to take time.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: So if you expect the worst, if you expect that it's going to be difficult, protracted, and high conflict, you're not going to be surprised.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: They will twist and distort things.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: So again, I go back to write it all down.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Narcissists, by their nature, need to be right, they need to win, they need to come out on top.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: It is about power and it is about control.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, they are likely, if they can financially resource it, they are likely to find the most aggressive lawyer.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: They will exhaust their and your final financial resources to ensure you they win and you lose.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it is important that you get the right legal support from the get-go.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: It is also important that you disengage, that you stop playing your part of the dance.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: You step out of the pattern or the cycle and that you let go and surrender.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: This can be incredibly difficult, but sometimes letting go is actually the only way forward.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in the middle of mediation or negotiation or litigation court proceedings, definitely avoid calling them out publicly as a narcissist or criticizing them.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Criticizing them directly.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever you think of them, keep it to yourself.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Tell your therapist, tell your coach, share it with your lawyer, keep it in the village.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: Don't publicly out them, whatever you think of them.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because if your narcissist's ego is bruised, if you've publicly outed them, they will come out fighting and do whatever is in their power to safe face, to protect that image, to restore the narrative, what they believe is the right and correct version of themselves.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because a narcissist is never wrong.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: They don't have the problems, and they will often say things like, It's all in your head, you're the problem, you're the one with the problem.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have any expectation or hope that your narcissistic ex will apologize or admit they've done something wrong, let that go right now.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Forget ever getting any apologies and instead educate yourself about codependency, narcissistic relationships, and get the support you need to deal with your end and the end of this toxic relationship, this toxic dynamic.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: So expect the worst, expect their behaviour to escalate, expect them to engage in high conflict behaviour and expect them to lawyer up.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Be prepared and make sure that that is part of your planning.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And take the lead from your lawyer, provided you've chosen well and you're you're aligned with a lawyer who understands high conflict divorce, who understands high conflict personalities, narcissistic behaviours.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Take the lead from them, take their expert legal advice, of course, but it may, it may be in your and your children's best interests to release yourself from the cycle, from the argument, to find ways you can compromise so your ex feels like they have won and settle relatively quickly so that you can start the healing process so that you can move on.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Expect behaviors like twisting the truth or gaslighting or calling you a liar or just discounting your version of events or reality.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Expect them to potentially hide assets or money.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Expect them to, if you've got court orders in place, expect them to ignore the court orders, expect them to push up against your boundaries, expect them to continually move the goalposts, change the rules of engagement, particularly when you're trying to negotiate an agreement.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: Expect them to drag it out, not provide documents, even when it's court ordered, provide some things, not other things.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Expect them to lawyer up with somebody who is going to push hard.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Expect them to line up a team of flying monkeys and kickstart a smear campaign, to use bullying and intimidation tactics, whatever you've been used to within the relationship, expect that behaviour to escalate.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: If what I'm sharing in this episode is really landing for you and you are looking for next level support, you can book a free intro call directly in my calendar via the link in the show notes.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: We can chat through coaching options and what your next best steps could look like in terms of building the support around you that you need to navigate your separation and divorce in the best, healthiest, most solutions-focused way possible.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to support you.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: Finally, I want to talk about communication, communicating with a high conflict, toxic, narcissistic ex partner.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: There are options around communication with your ex, and it's going to depend on your unique circumstances.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, this is going to be general advice.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to have to pick and choose what will or won't work for you.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Importantly, keep whatever communication to the absolute bare minimum essentials.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Keep it on topic, keep it unemotional.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: It might work for you to be calmly, brutally honest with them.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: No snarky tone, no stuck, no sarcasm, but just straight up brutal honesty.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Call it out.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Call it how it is.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Just tell the bear, not the bear, tell the absolute truth.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: Narcissists are liars and they are used to people lying because they think everyone is like them.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: They think that everybody lies because that's the way they live their life.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: So being honest, being brutally honest in a calm, unemotional way is unexpected and they may not know what to do with it.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Call out the bullshit behavior, call out the gaslighting with calm, quiet, brutal honesty if you think that's going to work in your circumstances.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Pushback is also something they may not expect if they're used to you giving in and acquiescing to whatever they want.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: So pushback will cause them disquiet, they'll be unsettled.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: They might panic and push back hard against you as a response, but they will start to realize that this person they used to have control over is no longer listening to everything they do or I'm sorry, that they say or doing everything that they want.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: So pushback can actually unsettle and destabilize a narcissist.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now, again, your ex's behaviour will likely escalate when you change your behaviour.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: So calling out whether you choose to call them out or push back against them, it's going to escalate no matter what you do or how you respond.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: And again, that's part of being prepared for the worst.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Pushing back, speaking your truth openly, honestly, claiming your space and your autonomy is that first step in taking back control of your life, taking your power back and healing so that you can move forward.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: Still on communication but a slightly different angle.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Be really mindful of venting about your feelings to mutual friends or family members who may still be in contact with your spouse.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I touched on this when I talked about social media and flying monkeys.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Your ex may try to solicit flying monkeys to check up on you only to then use that information against you later.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: They will send someone into your circle to make sure you're alright.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And they will twist and use that information if you've openly disclosed that you know you're feeling wobbly or you're seeing a therapist.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: So just be really careful about who you share information with.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Also, negative gossip really tends to perpetuate the cycle of victimhood to sit you in that messy, muddy space, and it can exacerbate feelings of anger, feelings of helplessness.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: So absolutely vent, absolutely speak your truth, as I said earlier, but just be mindful about who and how much you're communicating, who you're communicating with, and how much, and how much you're tipping into that negative spiral of sharing that sharing all the negative stuff so that you're spiraling down into it.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Communication with your ex does not need to be immediate.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: If they're messaging you, you don't have to respond immediately, and you may not need to respond at all.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes the most appropriate, the most effective response when dealing with a narcissist is no response, silence.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now you may have been in a pattern where you'd acquiesce, you just say yes just to keep the peace, or you'd just avoid saying no to avoid confrontation.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um maybe you've previously been available to your ex whenever whenever they called or contacted you, or maybe you would fire up in response to their manipulation, their behavior, and things would escalate or spiral quickly.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: The more boundaries and safety you can build around how and when, and about what you communicate with a narcissistic ex-partner, the saner and the healthier you will be.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: So remember, you don't have to respond at all, you don't have to respond immediately.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever you're dealing with a narcissistic ex, I think it's helpful to, as I said earlier, extend them some compassion.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Not for them, for you.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Your narcissistic ex is scared, they need to feel in control, they need to feel in control of the situation and of you to feel powerful, to feel safe.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: And at the moment they're not in control and they don't feel safe, so they're gonna do anything they can to regain that feeling of safety by exerting control, so trying to hook you back in.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: They are like that bully kid in the playground who makes fun of others because they think so little, so poorly about themselves.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: They have such low self-esteem that they need to poke against others to build themselves up.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: So pushing back against them means that yes, they will ramp up those narcissistic tactics as we talked about lying, gaslighting, all the coercive control, all the manipulation, all the intimidation, and maybe even the love bombing, trying to get you back under their control.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Losing control is their biggest fear.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Remember that.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: That is a key tip I'm offering you.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Remember that losing control is their biggest fear.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And understanding that is something that you can use to your advantage.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Other specific communication strategies you can use are disarming, validating them, mirroring them, and appealing to their ego.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: So by disarming, key phrases you could use to disarm your narcissistic ex is to turn around and say, Yeah, I agree with you, or I disagree with you, and you're entitled to your opinion.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or as we as I said before, just call it out with brutal honesty.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: That's not true.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: They're very disarming statements that can be used effectively in some cases.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, validating them is another way.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: I hear you.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: What I hear you saying is appealing to their ego.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: A narcissist really needs to feel important, so appealing to their ego can be a really useful strategy.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Things like, can I ask your advice on this?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or how would you handle this?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Or what's your opinion on X?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or what do you think about this plan?
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: Appealing to their ego, getting them to weigh in on something that you think they're being a bit crazy about helps them feel in control and powerful, like they're solving the problem, and it also highlights the crazy or ridiculous or manipulative behavior that they're engaging in.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: It can also be really useful to use we phrases, we statements.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: For example, in a recent client session, um, this particular client wanted her difficult ex to undertake a parenting course, and she was asking me how do I get him to do that?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I suggested she tackle that by using a we statement.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: We could both benefit from a parenting course.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Here's one I found.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: That kind of thing.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's a little bit more structure around that conversation, but definitely using a we phrase rather than finger pointing and then the narcissist or your ex high conflict ex feeling like they're being targeted and blamed can be a really helpful, useful strategy.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've also spoken in another episode about the biff method of communication, and that can be really useful when you're dealing with a high conflict, toxic, narcissistic ex-partner through the settlement and negotiation phase, and also when you're parenting with them afterwards.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: So if you haven't listened to that one, go back and have a listen.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And finally, my final tip is choose your battles.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you are exiting this relationship, and yes, you need to stand in your power and reclaim your sense of self, reclaim your truth, all of that.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: But choose your battles because not everything, not every single thing is worth engaging on, not everything is worth a fight, not everything is worth re-engaging with this person you're trying to untangle yourself from.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: While it's not always possible, as much as you can as much as you can, keeping your distance, limiting or minimizing contact and avoiding conflict with this person is going to be vital for your mental and emotional well-being and for your healing.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you do have kids together, it does not mean your ex has 24-7 access to communicate with you.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you set the boundaries around your communication.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: You are actually in control of when and how they contact you.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: You can break that cycle, step out of the pattern so that you are no longer available to your narcissistic ex-partner, and then you can start healing.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: My final tip get specialized support.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Connect with people who understand this pattern of behavior and who understand it through a divorce and parenting, parallel parenting lens.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: You need to build this rock solid team around you.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: So get specialized support.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Therapist, yes.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Work with a coach, yes.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Get specialized legal and financial advice, build that team around you.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, there'll be links in the show notes for some of the resources that I've referenced throughout this episode.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you would like to work with me as you split from and divorce a narcissistic, toxic, high conflict ex, there is a link in the show notes to jump on a call and we can chat through how that might look as part of your planning to leave.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to support you.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And if you know someone who this episode might support, please share it with them.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being here.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Bye for now.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, Relationship Coach, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love this episode, please, please share it with them.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also be so grateful if you'd follow the podcast and review this episode so we can get it in the ears of a whole lot more humans just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll join me next time for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: Until then