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Hope After Darkness · Pete Vs Anxiety!!!!!

• Pete: Ever wish you had someone to talk to anytime, anywhere, matter what you're going through? Meet PsychPAL, your 24-7 AI companion, designed to help you process your thoughts, calm your mind, and keep you moving forward. Chat anytime during a panic attack on a restless night or just when you need to vent. Prefer talking instead of typing? Try voice journaling. PsychPAL listens, transcribes, and truly understands. You can even upload screenshots of tough conversations, and it'll help you unpack how they made you feel. PsychPAL keeps life organized, too. It can add appointments to your calendar, track your mood, and even summarize your sessions for your therapist so you'll never lose progress. Plus, built-in crisis resources are always just one click away. It's a privacy-first, constantly evolving, made to complement your professional care, not replace it. Ready to try it out? Head over to the link in this episode and use my code, Pete, at checkout to get 20 % off your first month subscription to PsychPAL. PsychPAL, because your mind deserves a companion too. There we go. I think that's the one I like. We got it. We got it. Boom. peter: but Pete: went to doing like pre-recordings. Well, Keith, we're at the part of the interview where I'm gonna ask you those two questions. All right, Amanda Landes: that I had been kind of like since head for a while about about writing the story because Mia Mason: you are not the only one that experiences thoughts, Pete "mental Health Champ": Well, Dr. Erica, before we start wrapping up, I'm going to ask you exciting episode of Pete Fring Sighting before we get started today. Let's give a shout out to my partners over at Psych Pal Guys. Psych Pal, there's a link in the bio for this show. Go and check it out guys. Take your free day seven trial. If you like what you see, use my code p to check out for 20 % off your first month. With that being said, let's introduce my guest today. She's a licensed psychologist with 30 years experience, president of the BC Psychological Association, co-author of the nine time award winning book, Improbable and Extraordinary. Also the author of Through the Maze of Motherhood, Empowering Mothers Speak. She's also a former director of counseling services at Simon Fraser University. She's also the 2026 winner of Global Recognition Award for excellent achievement. Please welcome in the one, the only Dr. Erica Horwitz. Doctor, thank you so much for being here today. Dr. Erika Horwitz: Thank you, Pete. Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Pete "mental Health Champ": Oh, I'm beyond honored having you here, trust me. So Dr. Horowitz has actually sent me the book you see right in the background there. And I was telling her a little bit, I was reading a little bit about it. you know, it's really good. Before we get into that, why don't you tell me a little bit more about yourself? I mean, you've been doing this for 30 years, man. That's an accomplishment in its own. Dr. Erika Horwitz: Yeah, well, I, you know, I just was lucky to choose a direction that was right for me, right? I fell in love with psych, my first psych class in university. And that was just a date myself. That was 1983. But I took that first class and I just fell in love with psychology. And I've also myself you know, done a lot of therapy to heal my own early childhood traumas and issues. so I've, you know, I have a bachelor's, master's and PhD in psychology. My focus is mainly psychotherapy. And I, my passion, really, I think my passion is service and helping. Even if I'm in movie theater and I'm already sitting and people are trying to figure out where to sit, I... I start thinking I should move and help them. know what mean? So to me, pretty well, if you see my career and everything I've done, whether it's an individual room, doing psychotherapy to, you know, working on eliminating stigma, to writing this book with my brother, the purpose is always, can I make a difference? Can I, can I help, can I, you know, help people transform their pain? So that's a, that's a big. passion of mine and so everything I do is so focused on that. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, yeah. And you know, like I said, the book, I absolutely am loving what I'm reading so far. Like I said, I started reading it when I got it the other day. I've been reading it every chance again. It's so interesting to see the perspective of what your brother was thinking, you know, to get in his thoughts, you know, for somebody that's going through these things. So like, how did you guys decide to write this book? Like, you know, it had to be a struggle to get him to talk, because I know before we hit records, you were saying like, hey, you got to speak from your own point of view so people can understand what your what your thought process is. Dr. Erika Horwitz: Well, the way that it all came about is that he's three years older than me. And he was a lovely little, very curious little kid and very full of life. And of course he's the oldest, so he was a leader. We have another brother in the middle. And then when he started adolescence around 12 or 13, things started changing. He started having troubles at school. troubles with sleep and all kinds of different things. And gradually we started losing him. Bear in mind, this is in the seventies and there's no Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: diagnosing. So, you know, my dad was like, you know, you're just lazy. You don't try hard enough. You don't stay with anything. My poor mother trying to get him out of bed. Right. And he describes now that his reluctance to get out of bed was extreme fear, which, you know, extreme anxiety to just get out into the world. So As the years went by and then I moved to Canada and he moved to another city in Mexico. So we haven't lived in the same city for a long time. So, you know, we had our periodically we would talk on the phone or I would go visit. But he just kept deteriorating. He got he did get married. He had two kids and. It was he was so unwell, it was so hard to be around him. He like he was he would talk a mile a minute saying appropriate things. um you know was not able to listen or have a conversation it was it was really bad and then about 12 years ago 10 years ago um i started visiting the city where he was living more frequently because i have a daughter that got married and moved there and uh i was like what like it was truly incredible that this person who was so hard to be around was now a centered sensitive, good listener, full of wisdom. No, no, no. So after a few visits, I said, this is beyond incredible. I said, we got to tell the story. And he's like, I don't know. I go, no, no, we got to tell the story. And it took a few years, right? Because with his bipolar disorder, he gets excited about something and then he kind of forgets why he was excited about it, right? But this book, he kept at it, right? He would write bits and then it would come to me and I would, because I'm a witness to it too. It was a Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: really nice kind of working on it together. You know, he did say that writing it, you know, stirred him up at times. And every time I was working on it, Pete, was like, I would say to my husband, oh my God, this is so amazing, so inspirational because I'm seeing him walking the walk. And He didn't take medication, which is, and I don't say people don't take medication at all. I think medication is helpful, but he didn't like how it felt when he first took it in his forties. So he did all this without taking medication, which was to me the, the, the miracle of it all. Like, how do you do that? Right. So Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: it was a real, again, for both of us is I said to him, your story can make a difference. It will inspire. It'll give hope to people. whether they have initial mental health or they know somebody who does, or they just want to be inspired to believe that with hard work you can transform your life. Pete "mental Health Champ": Well, that too. Yeah. You know, in the perspective we're getting is what it's like to be that person, you know, and I think that's the hardest part for a lot of things, you know, like I dated somebody with BPD and like understanding her point of view was my main goal was like, you know what, let me figure out what it's like for her on that side of the coin. And I think that when it comes to things like that and bipolar, people don't do enough research. You know, we have these great things called phones. We don't use them for those positive things like looking up and understanding what this other person is dealing with. So him giving that perspective. It's great. Like I said, I've been reading the book and I'm enjoying it right now. So far, what I've been reading is great. I kind of skimmed through it a little bit just to see. But there's a lot of really interesting things in there. Those pictures of him when he was younger and all these really cool personal things you see as you go. But you get these perspective thoughts of what he was thinking in the moment, which is really cool because like, you know, that's what a lot of people don't understand is like what these individuals are dealing with. But now he's unlocking it. And now your nine time award winning book. It's crazy. Like to think that He's like, he didn't realize, you know, I don't think it's going to make difference. But you're like, yeah, it does. A story does make a difference. But, you know, it's a warm, winning piece now, man. And it's just him sharing his thoughts. I mean, right there alone. you know, and I agree, though, you know, medicine works for certain people. Some people should be medicated. It has its place. But for him to do it without it, it's very impressive as well, you know, to make a whole 180 turn. Because you said he's not doesn't seem like the same person that you used to know. He's way different. Dr. Erika Horwitz: it's honestly, Pete, it's we wrote this book. And along the way, I saw him walking the walk. It's not he's just saying and you will not read the book saying, he doesn't say I'm fixed or I'm Pete "mental Health Champ": no. Dr. Erika Horwitz: better. He doesn't say that in any part of the book. He'll say he has a section in the second part where he's talking about his flaws and he there's a few pages of flaws. He doesn't have all of them. Right. And he says, I still have these flaws. but now I have awareness and I know how to manage myself better and differently. And so he is, you know, there's a lot of humility in how he tells a story. And I'll give you an example, you know, we enter the book in many contests for awards and you know, Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: the first one was we were finalists. We made it to finalists. go, my God, that's great. And then, you know, we won for memoirs, for mental health, for addictions, for all kinds of different things. And we pronounce his name Saul, even though in English would be Saul. I go, Saul, Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: aren't you excited? He'd say, yeah, but I have to be careful. I cannot let myself go there because bipolar disorder has one of the symptoms is grandiosity and Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: a lot of ego. He says, I can't. Yes, I'm happy. But he He wants the book to be successful, but he says he wants to be careful because he doesn't want to get wrapped up in that all in those old patterns. And I'm like sitting there thinking, or when we were deciding on the, on the cover, my goodness, that was, it took so long, like to, like to, find the right cover. And he would say, well, I like this. I would say, but eventually he said, we narrowed it down and he said, decide because I, I don't need to be the one deciding like I used to. It's just. Honestly, I spent time with him and I call him now if I'm stuck and I'm a psychologist, like, because he has so much wisdom. And Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: of course, after he got better, he did it in a group setting. So not in one-on-one therapy in a group setting that is like an AA type group. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: They follow more or less the model of AA, but somewhat modified. They're kind of a little tough love. And so he, you know, as he got better, he started helping other people with all that wisdom that he has. He doesn't have any degree in psychology, but he knows maybe as much as I do because he's obviously very intelligent and an avid student Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: of the brain and psychology and very curious. So the transformation is truly nothing I've ever seen. Like I, in my years of working and I was the director of a counseling service, we supervise, I supervise many cases as well as the ones I've seen. And I've never, and I'm sure there's other people that have achieved it, but I've never come across it. It's quite remarkable. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, yeah, it's impressive though to hear that he went through all these things and he's helping other people and he's self aware. He's like, you know what? Yeah, I'm excited for the book, but I don't want to give into the temptation because I know the flaw, which is, know, hats off to him because, you know, most people don't aren't aware about these things, you know, don't know how to handle like he does, which is it's really cool though. Like I said, though, as we go through the book and you start seeing things, I think I did see the chapter where he was talking about his flaws, because like I said, I looked through it a little bit because I was just kind of curious to see what's in the book. you before I really started reading it. And I saw a part where he was listing a bunch of things in there. I'm going to say it's probably the part you're talking about, which I haven't gotten to yet, which I'm excited, though, to get to because I'm like, I don't really read a lot of books. But let me tell you right now, this book, it's easy to read. Not a lot of things going on. You're reading his personal thoughts as you're going through this thing. And it's like you're there with him the whole time because, you know, it's being written through the eyes of someone that's dealing with these things, you know. And I love it though. think for people in the category of mental health for sure, it's better insight to the thought process of people, you know, and I love it. I think it's great. I'm going to recommend it to a few people to check out, you know. And like I said, I don't read a lot of books. I got to be honest with though, this one I picked up and I started reading a little bit at a time. I'm like, all right, yeah, this is this. All right, cool. Every chance I get, like, all right, I got time, 15 minutes. Let me read a couple more pages out of the book and go in anticipation of this interview because I was like... You know, and I get a lot of books sent to me and I read, I try to read most of them. Some of them are just, yeah, they ended up in that zone back there, the dead zone back there. But I mean, I respectfully appreciate the people sending them. I will do some research for the interviews on them, but you know, this is one I have really invested in because I started reading it because it's so interesting because I'm so fascinated to see what people's thought processes are and things. then Sal's thought processes in this book so far we're reading and I love it. I can only tell you it's going to be great. But I did notice in the back, there's some tests and stuff in the back too that's really cool. What are those? Dr. Erika Horwitz: There's some what, pardon? Pete "mental Health Champ": There's stuff in the back of the book. What's that in the back of the book? There's a section in back of the It's like some kind of skills training or something. can't remember what it is. Dr. Erika Horwitz: yes, yes, in the back of the book. Well, the way that he wrote, we wrote it and it was obviously his structure. The first half is he's describing how unwell he was in Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: many areas of life. And the second half, he talks about how he healed, how he recovered. He uses the word recovery. Pete "mental Health Champ": Okay. Dr. Erika Horwitz: We debated about, you know, whether that was the word, but for him, that was the word. And He writes it, miracle number one, miracle number two, miracle number three. He tells through the whole book that he's not really, he's not, he used to be atheist. Now he's agnostic. He feels Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: that there's something bigger, but not, you know, it could be God, it could be karma. He doesn't know, but he used the word miracle. And as he's going, he describes some of the things that he did, well, all the things that he did that he feels helped him overcome the the chains of the bipolar disorder. And some of it is trauma work, right? So Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: bipolar disorder, just to clarify for folks who may not know, is not something that is caused by life experience. People with bipolar disorder do come with a brain that's not functioning in the average way, right? When you have a predisposition for a mental illness like that, and then you have life experience like trauma and loss, it combines to how bad it's going to get. So part of his work was to heal, and you'll read in the book, the different things that happened to him, some pretty horrid. So some of it... the work is supporting what we call the inner child, right? So I don't know if you've come across that concept, right? Like, so when we're little and we have trauma. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, see the funny thing is I talk to my inner child all the time. Dr. Erika Horwitz: Exactly. so he has at the end of the book, we included a process on how to heal the inner child. He does say through throughout the book, this is not a self-help book. It's not how to tell you how to do, you know, but it describes in more detail, you know, what that is. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: But even things like in that group, he would go every day to the group and sometimes he would stay at stand on the podium and sometimes he would do service. And some of the service was to wash the floor. And he does not like washing floors. He's really good at cleaning kitchens and cooking and all kinds of stuff. But he was told, you want to wash that floor imagining that God's going to walk on that floor. Like, you know, that house, and the dedication, right? It becomes almost meditative. Right. He said to me that one thing that made a huge difference for him was to do service for others, to get out of himself. and to make his life about helping others. And so in that, and you know, one little cool thing is that as I was working on the book and he has miracle number one, miracle number two, and he's saying that it's not religious, but to him it felt miraculous. So I go and look up the definition of miracle and there's the, you know, the usual religious type, you know, God granting a miracle. But the second definition was, something that is improbable and extraordinary, unexpected, but that it comes to happen. And I said, well, that's the title of the book because it was very improbable, honestly. I mean, but he was in his forties when this thing started to shift. and it's extraordinary. So, and he said, are you sure? Doesn't that make me sound conceited? I said, no, no, but that is, you know, His was improbable and extraordinary. And the fact that he used that word to describe the different things that he experienced that helped him grow. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, yeah, you know, and a lot of people look at it being spiritual almost, you know, because it's whatever that entity is. You know, I tell people that too. It's like, you know, you don't have to be religious. It's just whatever that higher power you feel is. It can be a spirit of some sort or whatever, know, at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter. It's whatever fits best for you. You know, if you look at the Greeks, Greeks had multiple gods, the Indians had multiple gods. You know, it's whatever works best for you. What fits your best interest and things like that, you know. So, I mean, hats off to them, though. I mean, It's helping people. People love it. Obviously, people are loving it. It's a nine time award winning book. So clearly, you know, when he wrote this thing, he had no idea what it was going to how impactful was, but you know, like I could get that though. I feel the same way, though. It's like I always want to help people, you know, but mine came from because the fact that was abandoned when I was 10, you know, so like that sense of making sure everybody feels community together, you know, and instead of using it like like a crippling thing, I use it as a superpower now because I want people to feel safe. reason the show existed in the beginning is because when I started this thing, I was more curious about my mental health and things like that. So I wanted to know if there are other people out there. And when I started it, there was a lot of responses to it. then as we went on, I start learning things about myself, you know, in different things. And I've had interactions with things I couldn't even explain, just like, you know, he's describing the miracles. I had some interactions, like I couldn't even tell you how it even happened, but it happened, you know, I mean, and things have changed for the better for me, though, as as I've been going through all these different interviews and meeting different people and, you know, learning different things about other things. It's always interesting what the conversations lead to, you know, and things like that, too. So but yeah, you know, I'm excited, though. I really am excited to finish this book. I'm really cool. I'm really glad that you sent it to me so I can check it out because I was like, you know, I got it. I was looking at it. I kept staring at it across the room. I was like, you know, I'm going to check this thing out. I'm like, I'm going to check this thing out. So looked at the back of the cover. So I read again, I was like. Alright, let's go look through it little bit. Okay, I'm gonna start reading this thing. So I got in there and start reading it. I was like, okay, alright, you know, and then it started drawing me in and I was like, alright, well, alright, okay, I like this, you know, so like, I'll find time. I'll go outside and I got a patio outside the window of the studio I'm at now. I'll go sit out there and read it. What are you doing reading the book for a little bit? Okay, you know, and I'll just constantly reading these different books. My mom's always looking at me weird, like, what are you reading? different book I got sent to me, you know, because I got all these packages that people send me and so like for different interviews and And so when that book came in, it was drawing me in because I was like, man, I just kept looking at it like, dude, I really want to read this book. I don't know something about it's drawing me to it. And I'm glad I started reading it. Like I said, I'm going to finish it. I don't have to tell you my thoughts when I finish it completely. But I'm excited Dr. Erika Horwitz: Thank Pete "mental Health Champ": for it, though. I think it's great. think what you guys did, the fact you inspired him to do it, though, and you pushed on him, hey, listen, you should do this. You know, I think it was a really great example of just, you know, how a story can matter to people. And all the people of Reddit obviously loving it at this point and things like that too. And the fact that he did it the way he did it, it's just proof that even if you feel like medicine doesn't work for you, there is other options out there. Now, don't get me wrong, it has its place. But I'm more the holistic side than anything now, seeing that all these different things you can do. But that doesn't mean it works for everybody though. Dr. Erika Horwitz: Exactly. And you know, to me, the inspiring thing is just really instilling hope, right? That it doesn't matter how much you're struggling, just reach out to someone, right? Or in some of these podcasts that you that like the one that you record, That might just get people started to feel that there is light at the end of that darkness. My brother describes what he calls suicidal crisis that he had. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: The first few times he said he didn't go ahead because he didn't want to do that to my mom. You know, those deep depressions in bipolar disorder, right? Those deep depressions where people feel completely hopeless. And then the mania that often leads to a lot of irresponsible, impulsive type behaviors. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: You know, in his case, there's people with bipolar disorder that are very successful academically or in jobs. His Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: bipolar disorder really got in the way of being able to stick with school. He did have jobs and worked. He's very intelligent. whatever he tried, was, but the bipolar sort of would get in the way. So then the self-worth starts getting messed up. Between my dad putting him down because you're lazy, you're not consistent. And then of course we had a brother, my middle brother. So he's the oldest and then my middle brother was that golden child. Perfect at school, perfect at karate, good with music. So then my older brother had that, you know, everybody admired that middle brother and he was kind of lagging behind because the bipolar disorder that was undiagnosed was getting in the way. And so his self-worth was also destroyed along the way, which Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: really happens, right? To a lot of people with mental health issues where they're not keeping up with the rest of people. And so I think part of his transformation was also releasing all that trauma and releasing all that self dislike. And honestly, I mean, he lives in a small little place with an extreme humility. I mean, we come from a father who was very poor as a kid, but my dad made millions by the time we were teenagers. And so we, you know, we grew up with, you know, moderate wealth or whatever. And now he lives in complete humility with lower income and just content. It's really, he's not quite Buddha, but he was able to find inner peace and come to Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: terms with his life. And the other thing is that you mentioned a few minutes ago that having awareness, self-awareness, I think that's his superpower now. Because I've been trying to, you know, like, how do I conceptualize what he does? He has the ability to know when his brain is starting to go into depression or mania. He has an awareness, right, that he's irritable or that he's, because he says some of his mania is just very irritable agitation. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: And so he has the awareness and he knows to tell people around him, I'm in a mania that's irritable because that's his brain doing it, right? So don't mind me or he knows to stay away. Honestly, it's the awareness and then he has the tools, right? He Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: knows what's happening. So for example, he says, I don't listen to my head anymore. I go like, what do mean? He says, before I did all this work on myself, my brain would get depressed and then I had a narrative in my head. Oh, I'm all alone. Nobody loves me, blah, blah, blah. And so his mind would... push the depression even deeper. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: So he says now if he's starting to feel like that, he doesn't go there. He uses meditation. He uses, you know, washing the floor, even though he still doesn't like it. Like he'll wash the floor or he'll go help somebody, right? And then he prevents the depression from going down. And the other piece, I'm sure you've come across this whole neuroplasticity thing. I don't have Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: scans of his brain. But I think what we understand in neuroplasticity now in psychology is that in neuroscience, that when you do something over and over mentally, right, your brain adapts to being that way. So over the many years that he did that work and repeated what was helpful, like washing the floor or helping people or not listening to his head over time, that becomes more of his default setting than the old setting. And so again, it speaks to the remarkable ability that we have as human beings to transform. And now we know that some of that transformation is at the brain level. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, it's almost like he reprogrammed himself, you know, which I met somebody the other day. That's what she does. She goes into your subconscious and helps reprogram those little ticks and things that you don't like about yourself. You know, it's a very it's a very serious process the way she does it. But the way she does it, she goes in and she's very careful about it, too, because especially when you're playing in the subconscious mind, you got to be really careful because that's where a lot of that stuff is. You know, and we've had a few neuroscientists on one. We were discussing where, you know, negative self-talk actually has another part of your brain it sits into, which was really interesting to find out, you know, in things like that. So I'm always fascinated when people start telling me about neuroscience things, because I'm like, it's so fascinating to hear the studies that what people are doing and how they're doing things, you know, and it's always interesting because a lot of it's like building a pattern. So he's retraining his brain to do a different pattern than what it would normally do, which is really It really makes sense though, honestly, because a lot of times we creature habits, know, lot of us will do the same things and won't break that habit at all. It'll just be the same thing regardless, you know, good or bad, we're still doing them. Dr. Erika Horwitz: Yeah, to me it's inspiring really that he managed to do that. honestly, think Pete, would agree that all of us want to experience inner peace and contentment in our lives, right? And so many things get in the way of that. And he honestly, it's... It's been many years now that he's been maintaining this. So it's not a fake, you know, he doesn't have the Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: grandiosity of I'm perfect. And on the contrary, very, very humble. And, and, know, for me, Pete, it was like, I think my my other brother and I, we felt like we lost him once he became an adolescent, right? Like he was in his head, he would stay up all night, which is common for people with bipolar disorder, and then sleep till three in the afternoon, didn't want to go to school. And then all those years where he, his behaviors and the way he was just made it really hard to want to be around him. And then I started spending this time with him in the last 10, 12 years. And I feel like I got my brother back and an improved version of that brother that can. you know, he's loving and helpful, know, full of wisdom and just lives really well embracing the life he has, which is, know, he's divorced. He, he, he, I he talks about that in the book. He's divorced, has two kids that are grown, but neither of them lives in the city where he lives. And, you know, goes to these groups still to help people. The other day he was telling me he was feeling pretty depressed, which doesn't really happen much. Again, the awareness. He went to the group, stood on the podium, and spoke about what his head was doing, what his mind was doing, and he turned it around. Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: Right? So his brain will still want to sneak in there and, you know, start a depression or a bit of mania. But Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: he keeps maintaining that balance and living. fully content on his own in this little town by himself. I don't know that I could. I've done a lot of therapy, I've done a lot of healing, I'm a psychologist. I don't know that I could, you know? That's how advanced I feel. Like he's very evolved. He's become a very evolved being. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, you know, that's a possibility for other people, though. He sets the example that just because you're, you know, you have bipolar or something doesn't mean you're going to let it, you can't let it defeat you because if Saul can do it, I mean, there's possibility for anybody to do it. You know what saying? Like whatever he was doing is working, you know, and, you know, it leads people to believe that they can do it too, but I mean, because they can really, you know, and that's what people need these days. It's like they need some positive, you know, reinforcement, not negative, because there's so much negativity out there, especially with the internet. and everything like that, you know, all these things you say, all this misinformation out there, it's great to hear that somebody comes from such a humble beginning and he's just kind of happy just doing whatever. He's almost like Buddha a little bit because, you know, he just really is just like, all right, well, I really help other people. I really don't need all this other stuff. I'm, you know, just happy with just being me. Dr. Erika Horwitz: Yeah, it is. Yeah, I, you know, feel so so much admiration for what he's done and it's for people like me, so you have listeners that are psychotherapists, psychologists, therapists, again, right, it just really emphasizes that people can transform, right, Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: that with the right guidance and support, in his case he was in a group, although he did get You know how the A groups have like a sponsor in Mexico, they call them where he lives, they call them Godfather. So he got a Godfather that's like the sponsor. And I think he chose the sponsor, but I think he got lucky. was just a tough love, he, know, a little tough love there, but just very wise that was able to... One particular story he tells in the book that I just felt so enamored with. The sponsor said to him one day, this is quite a bit after he had been working on himself. He says, do you pray? And Saul went, yeah, yeah, I pray. What do you pray for? Well, I pray that God helps me or the universe helps me to be a better person and to heal. And the guy goes and says, yes, that's so self-centered. No, no. I want you to go on your knees every night and you pray for other people. You pray for the real people that need prayers, know, those people that are starving or the people that are ill or whatever. And then he tells a story of how we were not raised religious, but he literally went on his knees and put his hands together on his bed and just prayed for other people. it's... You know, it really is this thing about getting out of yourself. People with mental illness often are very centering themselves because they're suffering so much. And so just little lessons like that, you know, like watch the floor Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: as God's going to walk on it or, you know, just go pray for other people. And he got scolded and he did that and he did that many nights and, you know, and all those things transformed him from the self-centered grandiose to to expanding himself, almost changing his worldview on what is really important in the world. My niece and nephew grew up with him while he was in the midst of this whole bipolar thing. And I've talked to my niece, his daughter, and she's also said to me, Tia, I feel like I got my dad. you know, they're close now and they're able to connect and my brother is able to be a support to her that Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: perhaps when she was growing up he wasn't, right? So the transformation seeps to the people around him, certainly for me and you know and his kids. So it's a gift to him but when people heal it's a gift to those around them as well. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, you know, people notice it too. Like she said, I got my dad back finally, you know, from what she's seen to where he's now. You know, Dr. Erika Horwitz: Mm-hmm. Pete "mental Health Champ": it's great to hear from him though. I'm so happy that he's found peace and he's in a better place. you know, he's focusing on helping other people too, because it's hard. You know, I think that's where a lot of people lose their sense of humaneness at that point is that we forget that we're all humans at the end of the day and we don't show enough compassion each other. And it's Dr. Erika Horwitz: Yes. Pete "mental Health Champ": really sad these days. like it kills nothing to be kind to somebody, you know, but we can't do that. We have to always bring each other down for whatever reason. you know, and it's really despicable because, you know, especially people with mental health issues, people that don't really get it, you know, they always have some kind of comments they want to make. go get therapy or you should go to the hospital or this and that. It's like, that's great, but you're not helping the situation, you know. I just feel like people don't talk about it enough because they don't understand enough of it. That was the goal from beginning of the show, is to raise awareness and break the stigma around the whole thing because people always have something to say, but they don't know anything about it or they'll judge things they don't know and they'll say these wild things. I've had people on this show that tell me some wild stories of things that people have said to them. We had a woman come on and that she was sexually assaulted and somebody was making fun of her. Like how do you make fun of somebody who didn't choose these things? You know what mean? It's like no logic behind it. You're just being a straight up asshole for no reason to people. It's like, we don't need all that. We got enough going on. We don't need you to be terrible to these people. Yes, you may not understand the things these people have gone through and the things they deal with, you know, but, you know, have a little compassion for once in your life. It's not really that bad to be nice to somebody, you know. Oh, hey, you may not understand they're going through, you know, hey, listen, I'm so sorry you're going through it. doesn't kill you to be nice to somebody just say something like that, you know what mean? And it's just, just, Dr. Erika Horwitz: Absolutely. Pete "mental Health Champ": the internet drives me crazy sometimes because for a while those suicide videos where they're like, well, you know, if you take your life after you take your life, there'll be 10,000 phone calls. And I'm like thinking, you have no idea what you're saying to you. Like, you know, the level of just like ignorance being said in this video makes no sense. Like you're not helping anybody. In fact, you're making the message even worse. Because what you're telling them is that, even if you kill yourself, we don't care. You're gone. It's like. What's like, like, I don't think people think before they put some of these videos out, everything's too clickbait worthy for me. And it just drives me nuts when you see people posting those videos, because I'm like, every time I see it, I get mad. I'm like, you really have no idea what it's like being there, do you? And it's, you know, and to me, it's just like. The insensitive level and I get I get people are trying. to do something positive, but you're really not with those videos. Please stop posting those things. They're not, they're not helpful. People in that state of mind and Dr. Erica can tell you the same thing. They're, they're, that's not probably not helping whatsoever. You're not, you're not helping them. Their whole idea. A lot of them are, is that they feel like they're not wanting. And that says right there is that, okay, well, if you do it, life will still move on without you. And that's not what we want these people to know. We want them to know they're not alone and that they have, that we want them here. We don't want them to go. We don't want to give them any reason to think why they should go and it won't matter if they're gone, you know? And to me, it's just like, I get so mad though every time I see those videos. Like I said, those just drove me nuts. get one of these tangents of people and they're like, well, guys, Pete, you still know them in those videos. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I did. I'm tired of seeing these damn things. So, but Dr. Erika Horwitz: Yeah. Pete "mental Health Champ": you know, it's just, it's just because, you know, I've been there. I know what it's like. I've been in the edge, you know? And to me, it's insulting that you're putting this kind of crap on the internet. And to me, it's almost like you're making a joke of the situation, even though I know a lot of these people aren't, they just don't understand. What's going on 100 %? Dr. Erika Horwitz: It's irresponsible, really. You know, when I was working at the university, we do a lot of suicide prevention there. And there's a quote, I'm not sure who came up with the quote that we used in our presentations. And we said, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Right. And we used to talk about it feels you're in a crisis at the time that you're considering taking your life, but it is temporary for the majority of people. know, Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: a crisis is temporary. I mean, my brother talks in the book about many of his suicidal crises and, know, his how he used to fantasize about how he would take his life. And thankfully, he never attempted. But the thankfully he didn't attempt. Right. Because look at. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: look at the gift he's given people by not only not attempting, but transforming his life and being able to instill hope in others. Pete "mental Health Champ": Right. Dr. Erika Horwitz: So those lives that are lost to suicide are wasted really because people, I some people live with chronic, know, like bipolar disorder is a chronic disorder that messes with people's Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: minds. Same with people that have chronic depressive episodes. They start feeling hopeless, but there's so much in science now and medications as well that can actually help people transform and feel better. so, our big message is reach out when you're feeling on the edge, when Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah, 100 % agree. Dr. Erika Horwitz: you're feeling like you're giving up, reach out, reach out to someone and get over that. crisis, right? That moment, those days that feel like that. Because, you I mean, I believe that all lives are, you know, you and I were talking about this anti-stigma campaign I had come up with, but one of the things that we wanted to communicate in eliminating stigma is that everybody's life has something to give and contribute, right? Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: And so that we need to not reduce people to the diagnosis. and seeing them in this larger way that they are, right? Like I wrote the foreword in the book and I talk about how, my brother used to be very protective of me. I was very lucky being the youngest of three because boys behave themselves around me because I had these two big brothers. But he was very, there was a boy in grade three that kept. bugging me and hitting me on the arm. And I told Saul and Saul went and found him and said, you've been bothering my sister. And the guy said, no, no, you are. And you, you stop bothering her or you're going to answer to me. Of course, you know, my brother's three years older than this kid or four years older and bigger. The kid behaved, you know, so he had so much love to give and so on. And then, you know, as we, as, as we saw this, this bipolar disorder hijacked him. in a way, you know, but for people to see that we see their essence, we see their beauty, we see their soul, you know, and when you embark in healing, you can peel those layers so that you can reconnect with that essence that you are. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Well, Dr. Erica, before we start wrapping up, I'm going to ask you two questions. Now, I ask all my guests these same two questions, OK? So the first one's a little bit of a fun one that we borrowed from a friend of ours. The question to you is, if your mental health had a song, what would you say that song would be? This is a really fun one, though, I'm telling you. A lot of people love this question. Dr. Erika Horwitz: If my mental health was a song. Pete "mental Health Champ": Yep, what would that song be? Dr. Erika Horwitz: I will survive. First I was afraid, I was terrified, kept thinking I Pete "mental Health Champ": Okay. I love it. Dr. Erika Horwitz: could never live without you by my side. You know, it's, yeah, even though that song is for somebody that left you, we can think of it as, you know, my mental health left me and Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: I took my power back, right? So yeah, I would Pete "mental Health Champ": Right. Dr. Erika Horwitz: say that one. Pete "mental Health Champ": I love it. OK, so now here comes the main question and the reason I started this podcast. OK, if you could break the stigma about mental health now, anything that you hear on a daily basis that you just want people to stop believing, what would you say that one thing would be? Dr. Erika Horwitz: that we are all in the world of experiencing troubles of mental health. It's not an us and them, or them the people that are mentally ill and the rest of us. No, All of us experience struggles of mental health, from feeling very stressed or overwhelmed to Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. Dr. Erika Horwitz: grief at times when somebody dies or you lose something Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: and you feel very upset. That's a mental health. right, to people that perhaps have an addiction to something all the way to the diagnosable mental illnesses. We're all in the same boat. So eliminating stigma to me is to see that. And the other thing you said one, but I'll say a second one is speak about it. Like just speak about it because you know how there's a closet for, you know, that the LGBTQ community talks about. I think this is another closet where Pete "mental Health Champ": Mm-hmm. I agree. Dr. Erika Horwitz: If people have any issue of mental health, they are struggling to hide it because it isn't safe in the world. But the more of us that talk about it, I I talked about my brother, I have had a pretty bad depression when I finished my PhD, which was weird. It didn't make sense, but where I ended up have to take medication. And I tell people, like, don't, you know, I tell my patients, I've taken medication, you know, because I think the more that we talk about it, the more that we are out of that closet, the more it will be normalized. Right? That Pete "mental Health Champ": Yeah. Dr. Erika Horwitz: this is just part of being human in the world. Pete "mental Health Champ": I agree. Well, Dr. Erica, thank you so much for coming to hang out with me. was a pleasure meeting you and it's pleasure getting to know you. Before we sign off, do want to let me know where to find you guys? I will include all these links she's about to list for you in the bio so you can go check out the book and everything else. Dr. Erika Horwitz: Right. So the book is called Improbable and Extraordinary, a Transformation of Mental Health, Mental Illness and Addiction. And the website for the book is improbableandextraordinary.com. So pretty easy to remember. I have some interviews with my brother there. have, you know, summaries, all kinds of stuff there that you can take a look at. And then if people want to find me separately, my website is mindfulness. Why? viasandvictorr.com. So it's mindfulness and YVR is the airport acronym for Vancouver in Canada. So some creative person say, why don't you just call it? Because I do a lot of the mindfulness therapies and I'm a certified mindfulness teacher. So those are the two places where they can find us. Pete "mental Health Champ": Definitely. Well, thank you so much for coming and hanging out with me. It was great getting to know you. Dr. Erica will be back for another special collaboration, guys. So stay tuned for that one, though. But with that being said, guys, we're going to wrap up this episode of Peteford's Anxiety. You know where to find me? I'm Peteford's Anxiety, X all the way down to TikTok. I'm on Spotify all the way down to Pandora Radio. And as I always say, it costs nothing, absolutely nothing to be kind to somebody. One kind act you could do could save someone's life, or hell, can make their day. I'm Peteford's Anxiety signing off. Don't ask how your day is today. Say, hey, how's your mental health?