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Life after life: What the Bible actually says about heaven and who gets there · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

• 0:26
  Well, hello everyone, and welcome to the Ten Penny Files.
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  I'm your host, Dr.
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  Sherry Tenpenny.
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• 2:08
  We're grateful that you're all here.
• 2:10
  Now, let's get started.
• 2:12
  Today's conversation is with speaker, author, and senior pastor of Kendred Community Church, Philip DeCourcy, to talk about his book, Life After Life, Exploring the Bible's Wonderful Promises About Heaven and Eternity, an informative and uplifting guide to God's incredible promises about heaven and the wonders that you will explore there.
• 2:36
  Thank you so much, Pastor Philip, for joining us.
• 2:39
  It's a pleasure to have you on the show today.
• 2:41
  Dr.
• 2:42
  T, it's a joy to uh be with you and your uh followers.
• 2:46
  Thanks for the opportunity to talk about about a great uh subject.
• 2:50
  And uh as you and I are talking kind of off-camera, I spent many happy years in the state of Ohio where you are, and so I want to send greetings, especially to the Buckeye Nation and my friends back in Ohio, spent some good time there and uh glad to be with you and your followers.
• 3:07
  Well, thank you so much.
• 3:08
  Yes, it's it's always fun to talk to a fellow Buckeye, that's for sure.
• 3:12
  You know, I'm really excited to talk to you about your book, Life After Life, Exploring the Bible's wonderful promises about heaven, because it was such an uplifting book with so much downtrodden and kind of gloom and doom stuff that's out there going on in in the world right now.
• 3:28
  Your book is just so uplifting.
• 3:31
  Why do you say that that humanity as a whole has an innate has an innate belief in heaven?
• 3:38
  Yeah, I mean, I'm glad to hear from you that you felt the book was uplifting and it should be.
• 3:45
  Um, because I mean Titus talks about Jesus' return and and the life to come as the blessed hope.
• 3:53
  And uh we have we have a hope that's unrivaled and unparalleled in Christ.
• 3:58
  It's a living hope based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
• 4:02
  And and uh there are several reasons why I think man and women innately uh think about the life to come because especially Ecclesiastes uh three talks about the fact that God has put eternity in our hearts.
• 4:17
  Um whether someone is a clear and dedicated follower of Jesus Christ.
• 4:23
  Um, I think most human beings, if you look at most cultures uh across the world, past and present, there's an element of reaching for the stars.
• 4:32
  There's an element of there's got to be more than this.
• 4:35
  Tell me death is not the end.
• 4:38
  And uh certainly as Christians, we know what the answer to those questions are.
• 4:43
  Um, you know, in my book I talk about the fact that um we can know uh about eternity because of uh God's uh word to us, because God has revealed um what uh the the life after this life looks like.
• 4:58
  He's pulled back the curtain on the eternity, and I'm thankful for that.
• 5:03
  I don't need to guess, I don't need to dream.
• 5:06
  God has revealed it in his word.
• 5:07
  I hasn't seen, ear hasn't heard, uh, neither has it entered into the heart of man what God has prepared for them, but the spirit of God has showed us these things.
• 5:17
  And and also um, you know, God's witness in us, uh, the spirit of God who comes to indwell the believer, calls us, causes us to cry above Father.
• 5:27
  He's called the engagement ring or the inheritance in Ephesians one.
• 5:31
  And so God's word tells me about the life to come.
• 5:34
  Um, God's spirit draws me towards that life, and then finally the world around us, Dr.
• 5:41
  T.
• 5:42
  Um, there's an old James Bond movie called The World Is Not Enough.
• 5:46
  And and C.S.
• 5:48
  Lewis talks about this uh from a kind of philosophical point of view, not so much a biblical point of view, but we have desires this world doesn't satisfy, which makes you wonder is there a world where you get those desires satisfied?
• 6:02
  So there are there are several streams that that kind of contribute, but but man innately, you see it in science fiction, uh, you see it in books, you see it in in even uh uh anymystic religions.
• 6:16
  There's there's a hope that there's something more.
• 6:19
  And the nice thing is as a Christian, we don't guess about that.
• 6:22
  We have an assurance uh that the Christ who came from heaven, died for our sin, rose from the dead, and we put a trust in him is going to take us to heaven, as my book says, Jesus says, I go to prepare a place for you.
• 6:35
  So yes, it's uplifting.
• 6:36
  We need in a day of bad news, we need the good news of an everlasting experience that is holy and healthy and happy.
• 6:45
  You know, in the very first chapter of your book, you said something that I found really interesting.
• 6:51
  He said, Heaven is the water in which Christians swim, the air that we breathe.
• 6:57
  Heaven is not just the object of our longing, but the subject of our living.
• 7:00
  But the subject of our living.
• 7:03
  I thought that was really, really powerful.
• 7:03
  I thought that was really, really powerful.
• 7:05
  Explain that to us a little bit.
• 7:05
  Explain that to us a little bit.
• 7:07
  Yeah, I love the fact that you you got that.
• 7:07
  Yeah, I love the fact that you you got that.
• 7:10
  Chapter one, that's where we start.
• 7:10
  Chapter one, that's where we start.
• 7:11
  It's a chapter entitled Heaven, can't wait.
• 7:11
  It's a chapter entitled Heaven, can't wait.
• 7:14
  Because I think we fall foul of this idea.
• 7:14
  Because I think we fall foul of this idea.
• 7:16
  We'll get round to thinking about heaven.
• 7:16
  We'll get round to thinking about heaven, we'll get round to dying and going to heaven.
• 7:19
  We'll get round to dying and going to heaven.
• 7:21
  But if you read the New Testament, and I base that chapter on one passage, Colossians 3, 1 to 3, although there are other passages where Paul says, set your affection on things above and not on things below.
• 7:21
  But if you read the New Testament, and I base that chapter on one passage, Colossians three, one to three, although there are other passages where Paul's
• 7:36
  And the New Testament encourages us not to see heaven just as a destination, although it is that it's a place, we're going to it, can't wait.
• 7:47
  But if you read the New Testament, I could add to that maybe Philippians 3 20 and 21, where Paul says we are citizens of heaven.
• 7:56
  And if you were in Philippi, get a little bit of history.
• 8:01
  Philippi was a Roman colony, about 800 miles from Rome.
• 8:05
  And Paul knew that.
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  When you walked the streets of Philippi, the architecture was Roman, the language was Roman, the laws were Roman.
• 8:13
  You'd see Roman legionnaires and soldiers.
• 8:15
  And so although you weren't in Rome, Philippi reminded you of Rome.
• 8:20
  And Paul is saying, as Christians, our citizenship is in heaven and the values of heaven, the worship of heaven, the God of heaven.
• 8:29
  That should be something we live out on a daily basis.
• 8:33
  We tend to, you know, uh, we're we're citizens of earth trying to get to heaven.
• 8:37
  No, we are citizens of heaven, trying to get through earth.
• 8:41
  And so heaven needs to be an orientation.
• 8:44
  Um think about this, Dr.
• 8:46
  T and your listeners.
• 8:48
  Um, you know, Matthew 6, I just finished the sermon in the mind in our church, Jesus talks about laying treasure up in heaven.
• 8:56
  So heaven should govern the way we spend and consider material things.
• 9:01
  Um Paul says in Romans 8, verse 18, uh, not to compare your present suffering with the glory that shall come.
• 9:10
  And so when I'm suffering and it's hard, and I'm sure some of your listeners are going through a season of sickness or suffering, and that's hard to embrace and hard to endure.
• 9:19
  But one of the reasons we can endure it is that there is a long life coming that that is perfect and without sickness and without death.
• 9:28
  And Paul says, make sure in your momentary suffering, you think about heaven, and that will alleviate, it will help you endure.
• 9:36
  And I I could give other examples of how the thought of heaven and the theology of heaven should govern our our daily lives.
• 9:48
  I mean, we ought to share our faith, because according to Paul in 1 Thessalonians 2, um, he says about the Christians in Thessaloniki, you're going to be my crown of rejoicing in heaven.
• 10:02
  And that's that, you know, it's one of the blessings of evangelism.
• 10:06
  If God uses us to bring someone to faith, one of the joys of being in heaven, well, those people will be in heaven with us our children, our loved ones, our neighbors, our friends, our workmates.
• 10:17
  So the point is, heaven is a state of mind.
• 10:21
  It it's it's an orientation uh of one's heart.
• 10:25
  I'll finish with this.
• 10:27
  Uh, in the book, I quote a um a Puritan, uh, an English Puritan pastor, Richard Sibbs, it was said of him, and I love this, Dr.
• 10:35
  T, um, heaven was in him before he was in heaven.
• 10:41
  And I want to challenge myself.
• 10:43
  I I fall foul of kind of using salvation like an insurance card, and I stick it in my back pocket.
• 10:51
  Oh, I've dealt with the eternal.
• 10:54
  And Paul says, no, set your affection on things above where Christ sits and he's going to return.
• 10:59
  So each day live with a heavenly mindset.
• 11:02
  It will give you endurance, it will help you be dedicated to Christ.
• 11:08
  It will remind you that all that you see is passing and fleeting.
• 11:12
  So don't put all your eggs in a nest that's on a branch on a tree that's going to be cut down.
• 11:18
  So for all of that, um, the main challenge is you heaven is a mindset and a motivation in the New Testament.
• 11:27
  And I think we've lost something of that.
• 11:29
  Do you do you agree?
• 11:30
  Oh, I do, and I just think that's just uh a great, like really important point.
• 11:36
  A really important point of your book, that um that it's about that we are residents of there.
• 11:42
  It's like um if we uh were residents of the United States, and we traveled to Europe or we went to Africa, we are residents of the United States, so we practice the way that we live here while we're sojourn, sojourning there.
• 11:56
  And it's I take from your book that we are residents of heaven after we've been saved by Jesus.
• 12:02
  We're already residents there.
• 12:04
  We just happen to be traveling down here on earth and making it through.
• 12:09
  And you know, he's with us because he says he'll never leave us or forsake us that he's always with, he doesn't give us an easy path, but he gives us the strength to deal the path that we've been given.
• 12:19
  And so I think that that's a really, really uh important way to think about heaven that most people don't think about heaven as though we already live there and we're sojourning here.
• 12:29
  We think about we're living here and we can't wait to get there.
• 12:32
  It's a different I mean, I I identify with your your analogy.
• 12:36
  Thankfully, right now I'm a naturalized American citizen, so everything for me is about America.
• 12:41
  But what in my first few years, I was a resident alien.
• 12:45
  I was a I was a citizen of the United Kingdom, living in California, doing uh uh postgraduate studies.
• 12:52
  And and I I even though I was living on the West Coast, I felt the tug towards home.
• 12:57
  I missed the bagpipes, I missed my mother, I miss my father, I missed the the green rolling hills of Ireland.
• 13:04
  And in some sense, when Paul says you're a resident or you're in a citizen of heaven, he's he's saying, I want you to have a resident alien.
• 13:11
  In fact, Peter uses that phrase, doesn't he?
• 13:14
  We are aliens uh or sojourners.
• 13:17
  Uh 1 Peter 1 talks about that exactly.
• 13:20
  We are sojourners, we're on a journey um to heaven where our Savior is, where our destiny lies.
• 13:27
  In fact, Ephesians 1 says what?
• 13:30
  We are seated in the heavenly places.
• 13:33
  Our heart and our identity is already united to Christ.
• 13:37
  So I hope that we live, we can get to attach to this world, and we've got to fight that.
• 13:44
  I I you know, like you, I think you're speaking into the political issues of today, the culture.
• 13:49
  There's a place for that.
• 13:50
  I do that, but I got to remind myself that that uh my first loyalty is to a kingdom that's everlasting.
• 14:00
  Uh the cultures of the today and the politics of today and the Republican Party and the Democratic Party and whoever's in the White House, that's all going to change as every four years, uh every eight years.
• 14:00
  The cultures of the today and the politics of today and the Republican Party and the Democratic Party and whoever's in the White House, that's all going to change as every four years, every eight years.
• 14:12
  And then ultimately when Jesus comes, that's irrelevant.
• 14:12
  And then ultimately when Jesus comes, that's irrelevant.
• 14:15
  The relevance will be as Jesus says, Did you seek first the kingdom of heaven?
• 14:15
  The relevance will be as Jesus says, Did you seek first the kingdom of heaven?
• 14:20
  You know, in your book, Life After Life, you describe heaven as a real place designed as a cube, 1500 miles long on each side, calculate.
• 14:20
  You know, in your book, Life After Life, you describe heaven as a real place designed as a cube, 1500 miles long on each side, calculated to be able to hold 100 billion people, and having walls, gate streets, 12 foundational stones, and even a river.
• 14:39
  Why do you think the Bible gives us this much detail about what heaven looks like?
• 14:45
  Because God is kind, he's loving and he's gracious, and he wants to know, he wants us to know the grace and the joy that he has stored up for us.
• 14:57
  And back in the book of Psalms, it talks about God has stored up goodness for us.
• 15:02
  Or maybe the verse that comes to my mind is I think it's Ephesians 2, verse 7, somewhere around there, where it says that God will show the exceeding riches of his grace to us throughout the ages.
• 15:15
  So Dr.
• 15:16
  T, you and I are saved by God's grace.
• 15:18
  It's an amazing thing, as John Newton says in the hymn.
• 15:21
  I'm saved, I'm indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
• 15:24
  I've got all the promises of God, which are yes and amen and Jesus, and they're great and exceeding.
• 15:30
  I know the Lord Jesus, the Son of God, God is my Father, and heaven is my ultimate home.
• 15:36
  And and and um, like any good father, God wants the best for us, and he is preparing uh a life that it's uh it's it's in one ways it's beyond imagination, but what I want to bring across in the book, it's not, it's very like life now, except disease, death, Satan, all the things that disrupt life will be missing.
• 15:58
  But but it is important that we we get across heaven's uh a mindset in some degree.
• 16:04
  Pump some people think it's kind of a state, a spiritual state, but the Bible says it's a zip code, it's a place, it's as real as New York, Rome, London, Beijing.
• 16:15
  Well, I'd start in John 14, or Jesus says, I go to prepare what?
• 16:20
  A place for you.
• 16:22
  Uh heaven's not some nirvana, some bodiless, you know, uh ethereal uh uh experience.
• 16:30
  Uh uh the the present heaven is above us, it's real, it's got a throne, God dwells there, angels are there, the departed souls of the righteous there, and Jesus calls it a place.
• 16:42
  But the ultimate heaven, which is what what you reference is Revelation 21 to 22, where the the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven to earth, and this present earth is being made new.
• 16:54
  Jesus talks about the restoration of all things.
• 16:57
  Revelation 21, 22 says, and there was a new heaven and a new earth, and the former things are gone, and behold, he makes all things new.
• 17:07
  And you can dig into this with me, but the point we're making is I want people to know ultimately there's an intermediate heaven, which is the third heaven.
• 17:16
  We see the the uh uh the the uh the heaven by day, we see another heaven by night, and we see the third heaven by faith.
• 17:23
  Uh it's a real place, and our departed loved ones in Christ are there.
• 17:27
  But the ultimate heaven, the permanent heaven, will be back on earth, and we will have a resurrected body, which I find is so good because I think Christians even fall foul of the caricature.
• 17:39
  We're some kind of little Casper entity floating about heaven, or we're a spirit or an angel, which is you know nothing close to the truth.
• 17:49
  We're kind of you know, puffing up a cloud and playing a harp.
• 17:53
  No, heaven ultimately is earth, and it's Eden revisited, and it's what life ought to have been until man disobeyed God.
• 18:02
  And and I love that thought.
• 18:03
  I can identify with that.
• 18:05
  I can the new the everlasting life will include rivers and mountains and ground and and developing civilizations and expanding God's kingdom.
• 18:16
  Um I I want that to get across.
• 18:19
  Uh C.S.
• 18:20
  Lewis said that Christianity is the most materialistic religion of them all.
• 18:25
  And what he meant by that is most religions have a kind of spiritual or Gnostic idea to them.
• 18:31
  We've got to escape this world, we've got to escape our bodies.
• 18:34
  And Christianities, no, we will not escape our body, we'll be given a new one, not subject to death, and we'll be back on the earth, terra firma.
• 18:43
  And I I'm just excited about that.
• 18:46
  You know, you say in another place in your book, um, death is not full stop, it's a comma.
• 18:53
  What does that mean to you?
• 18:55
  And what do you think we're gonna be doing in heaven when we get to that real place?
• 18:59
  Yeah, I mean uh death is is not an end, it's a beginning.
• 19:04
  Uh, there's a great story about uh Dietrich Bonhoffer, uh the the uh resistance fighter and and and Lutheran pastor who who opposed Hitler, um, who was sadly hung by wire just a day or two before the end of the second world war.
• 19:20
  But he sent a telegram to I think it was Bishop Bell in England in Gloucester, and his words were, this is not the end, this is but the beginning.
• 19:30
  And death for the Christian, it it's not annihilation, it's not extinction, it's not reincarnation.
• 19:36
  We're appointed to die once.
• 19:39
  Uh Hebrews 9, 27, but then the judgment.
• 19:43
  So there's death, and then the spirit leaves the body and goes before its its maker.
• 19:48
  And and uh if if we're not in Christ and we're in our sin, Jesus says, where I am, you cannot be.
• 19:54
  And the reality is there's a there's hell and there's heaven.
• 19:57
  There's two destinies.
• 19:58
  Jesus talks about two roads, one broad, one narrow, one ends in life, one ends in destruction.
• 20:04
  If if we have the happy experience of knowing Christ, and we die and we go to be with Christ, it's not the end.
• 20:11
  And as I've said, we'll be in that intermediate heaven until the second coming, the millennial kingdom, and then the new heaven and the new earth.
• 20:19
  And uh, when that happens, we'll be given a new body, we'll return with Christ to reign on the earth, and we'll do all kinds of things.
• 20:29
  Uh, you know, we'll serve him.
• 20:31
  Uh, people get this idea that when you know, when you get to heaven, you don't have to do anything.
• 20:36
  No, uh, we will we will continue to do perhaps many things we were good at on earth.
• 20:42
  God doesn't waste his gifts and his graces.
• 20:45
  Um, I believe if you go back to creation mandate, right?
• 20:48
  Uh we won't multiply because there's no marriage in heaven.
• 20:52
  Uh that won't re that won't be repeated.
• 20:54
  But back in the Eden, subdue the earth and be co-regents or rulers with God.
• 21:00
  With God.
• 21:01
  And I think that's what we're going to do in eternity.
• 21:01
  And I think that's what we're going to do in eternity.
• 21:03
  And then you have it in New York, that's a new start, and we will build civilizations.
• 21:03
  In a new heaven and a new earth, it's a new start, and we will build civilizations.
• 21:07
  We will learn about God in ways we have never known before.
• 21:07
  We will learn about God in ways we have never known before.
• 21:10
  Our knowledge is always expanding.
• 21:10
  Our knowledge is always expanding.
• 21:13
  We'll worship, we'll socialize, we'll know each other, which is something people always ask me.
• 21:13
  We'll worship, we'll socialize, we'll know each other, which is something people always ask me.
• 21:18
  Dr.
• 21:18
  Dr.
• 21:18
  T, do I will I know my loved one?
• 21:18
  T, do I like will I know my loved one?
• 21:20
  Well, yeah.
• 21:20
  Well, yeah.
• 21:21
  The Spurgeon said, the old English pastor, we're not, we're not any, we're not stupider, forgive the drummer.
• 21:21
  Spurgeon said, the old English pastor, we're not, we're not any, we're not stupider, forgive the grammar.
• 21:27
  We're not stupider when we get to heaven.
• 21:27
  We're not stupider when we get to heaven.
• 21:29
  We're we're
• 21:29
  We're we're we're we're we're more wise, we're more knowledgeable.
• 21:33
  We're not less, we're more.
• 21:35
  And we'll know each other.
• 21:37
  Uh marriage won't continue.
• 21:39
  But I think I'll know that I was married to my wife June.
• 21:42
  And she was a precious gift to me, and we'll enjoy eternity together with with our our children, uh, God willing, with friends, with our church, with the churches, with the nations.
• 21:52
  So heaven uh is going to be a busy place, a beautiful place.
• 21:58
  And best of all, it's it's we love it not for what's just present, God, Christ, salvation, uh uh, um, everlasting life.
• 22:08
  It's what's absent, sorrow, suffering, Satan, temptation, um, the the frustration of wanting to serve God better and love him more what on earth when we couldn't do it because sometimes we feel so um uh you know, again, I hope the book opens people's eyes to realize that um, you know, heaven is gonna be a pursuit, it's gonna be a pleasure.
• 22:33
  It's gonna be an ever-expanding um experience.
• 22:37
  One last thing.
• 22:39
  Uh people tend to think, well, if we're if we're gonna do something forever, won't it be bored, ultimately become boredom?
• 22:46
  Because you just it's repetitious.
• 22:49
  I don't think it will be that.
• 22:50
  In fact, I'm sure it won't be that.
• 22:52
  And and C.S.
• 22:53
  Lewis, forgive me for quoting him again, or maybe it was G.K.
• 22:56
  Chestern and uh an English philosopher.
• 22:59
  I've got two little granddaughters.
• 23:01
  Uh the other day they came over and we had a pool party.
• 23:04
  And you know, we might throw them up in the air and the splash in the water.
• 23:08
  And you know, you know this, Dr.
• 23:09
  T.
• 23:09
  You know what they say?
• 23:10
  Do it again.
• 23:11
  Granda, do it again.
• 23:13
  And yet you could do that all day long with them, and they would love every minute of it.
• 23:18
  And I think God will give us that kind of childish curiosity, that ex that instinctual happiness that whatever we do in the life to come, we will say, do it again.
• 23:29
  And and then we'll and that joy will never end at his right hand or pleasures forevermore.
• 23:36
  You know, when they talk about Jesus is going to come back and reign here on earth for a thousand years, and then there's eternity, which is forever.
• 23:43
  Do you think that we age when we're in heaven?
• 23:46
  Or do you think that when we get our new bodies, if you die when you're 40, you'll always stay 40.
• 23:51
  If you die when you're 70, you always say 70.
• 23:53
  Do you have any idea about that?
• 23:55
  I have a bit of an idea.
• 23:56
  I don't want to be categorical about it, because you know, uh I remember an old theologian I heard said, where the Bible leaves off teaching, leave off learning, in the sense that, right?
• 24:06
  But at the same time, here's what I would go on.
• 24:10
  I talk about this in the book on my chapter on resurrection on the new body.
• 24:15
  Um I don't know that there's a there's a theory that when Jesus met his disciples, he was, you know, in his his mid-30s, early 30s, and and scientifically and biologically, uh, you know, in that in that kind of realm that you're you're kind of at your peak, fitness, physicality.
• 24:37
  So there's a theory, and there's some merit to it, I think that um that you know, we'll have a body like on the Lord, like the Lord Jesus, right?
• 24:46
  And um it won't age.
• 24:49
  Um, I don't think it'll show signs of aging, because aging came through sin and death came through sin.
• 24:55
  So that that won't happen.
• 24:57
  So I uh um there's there's a most theologians have made an argument that we know medically in that age range, we're out of physical peak, and that's where Jesus was in his resurrection body.
• 25:10
  So I have to deduce from that.
• 25:12
  It's it's an inference, not a you know, something I'll die, I'll die on or fight you on.
• 25:18
  But it makes some sense.
• 25:19
  I mean, Adam and Eve weren't born, they weren't immediately created you know one month old.
• 25:26
  They were created, you know, adult beings.
• 25:29
  And so I think we'll we'll be in an adult stage of of, and if the word perfect is attached to the life to come, why not consider the birth the new body will be perfect, and we have some measure, both in Jesus' resurrection and just scientifically, somewhere in that mid-30 range is kind of, you know, you're kind of at uh at your best as a human specimen.
• 25:52
  So that's a lot of Protestant and evangelical theologians deduce that's probably the age we'll be somewhere in that adult peak physical condition, and we'll be that forever.
• 26:04
  I'll take that one.
• 26:06
  Yeah, I'll take it too.
• 26:07
  I'm 65 and I'm getting creaky and old and my bones are sore, and I'm takes a while to jump out of bed.
• 26:14
  So give me 35 any day of the week.
• 26:16
  Exactly.
• 26:17
  Well, Pastor Phillip, this is a great way, great place for us to take a short break to hear from our sponsors from America Outloud.news.
• 26:24
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• 26:26
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• 27:29
  We'll be right back with more from Pastor Philip DeCourcy about his book, Life After Life, Exploring the Bible's wonderful promises about heaven and eternity.
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• 33:48
  Well, welcome back, everyone.
• 33:50
  Today our conversation is with Pastor Philip DeCourcy about his book Life After Life: Exploring the Bible's Wonderful Promises About Heaven and Eternity, an informative and very uplifting guide to God's incredible promises about heaven and the wonders that you will experience there.
• 34:08
  Let me tell you just a little bit more about today's guest.
• 34:11
  Pastor Philip DeCourcy is the senior pastor of Kindred Community Church, born in Belfast, Northern Ireland.
• 34:18
  He became an engineer and spent six years as a part-time police officer in North Belfast, where civil tension and terrorism were commonplace.
• 34:27
  After being called into full-time ministry, Pastor Phillips spent six years at Carr Baptist Church in Lisburn, a suburb of Belfast in 1994.
• 34:38
  He really coded his family to the United States and served in churches in Southern California and also in Central Ohio.
• 34:44
  My frankly he told me it was Toledo, Ohio.
• 34:46
  Yep, uh before becoming a senior pastor at Kendrid Community Church.
• 34:51
  In addition to his work in the ministry, Pastor Phillip is a dynamic speaker on the national media program, Know the Truth.
• 34:59
  Pastor Phillip, welcome back to the show.
• 35:00
  Pastor Philip, welcome back to the show.
• 35:02
  Thanks for being with us today.
• 35:02
  Thanks for being with us today.
• 35:04
  Dr.
• 35:04
  Dr.
• 35:04
  T, thank you.
• 35:04
  T, thank you.
• 35:05
  Thank you for your platform.
• 35:05
  Thank you for your platform.
• 35:07
  Sure today.
• 35:07
  Shared today.
• 35:08
  Appreciate what you're doing to uh get the God's word out and the truth of Jesus Christ into the culture.
• 35:08
  Appreciate what you're doing to uh get the God's word out and the truth of Jesus Christ into the culture.
• 35:14
  So it's a joy to join you, and as we said in the first half of the hour.
• 35:14
  So it's a joy to join you, and as we said in the first half of the hour.
• 35:17
  I spent several happy years in uh the churches in Toledo, though I lived in the suburb uh uh Sylvania, and uh picked up uh uh a lifelong love for
• 35:17
  I spent several happy years in uh the church was in Toledo, although I lived in the suburb uh uh Sylvania and uh picked up uh uh a lifelong love for uh buckeye football.
• 35:31
  In fact, if you were in my study this morning here in Southern California, um uh I I look straight across to uh on the wall to a picture of Woody Hayes, famous Ohio State coach.
• 35:43
  Oh, wow.
• 35:44
  Yeah.
• 35:45
  Um this it's an iconic picture of him.
• 35:48
  I love it, where he's coaching in the snow and he's got short sleeves on.
• 35:52
  And I just love the challenge.
• 35:54
  Here was a man that regardless of the weather, the conditions, let's get it done.
• 35:58
  And so I love the the message of that.
• 36:01
  Behind me uh for my 60th birthday, the church bought me an Ohio State football helmet uh that was signed by Urban Meyer uh for the 2014 championship team.
• 36:13
  So I'm all into the buckeyes.
• 36:15
  I usually come back to Columbus once a year or once every two years or go and watch them.
• 36:21
  Nice thing is now we're part of the Big Ten, so they're gonna come out to the West Coast.
• 36:25
  So this year I'll be scouting uh a nice ticket for the Ohio State USC game.
• 36:31
  That'll be that'll be that sounds go bucks.
• 36:34
  Go buckeyes.
• 36:35
  You know, in your book, Life After Life, and we talked about this uh some uh quite a bit in the first half of the show, but I want to ask a further question about it.
• 36:44
  That Christians um are not citizens of earth trying to get to heaven, but they're citizens of heaven making their way through the world.
• 36:51
  And that is such a different way of thinking about heaven that I don't think most Christians have considered before, and that's one of the reasons why I think this book, your book, Life After Life is so uplifting.
• 37:03
  How can we learn to live that way and believe that it's true?
• 37:07
  Yeah, look, you've probably heard the statement we can be so heavenly minded we're no earthly use.
• 37:16
  And what while that can happen, I want to say that's an exception.
• 37:20
  I haven't met too many Christians, Dr.
• 37:22
  T, who are so heavenly minded that they're of no earthly use.
• 37:26
  If if if anything is we're too earthly minded to be of heavenly use.
• 37:31
  Um and and Paul tells us to set our affection or our mind on things above, um, not on things below.
• 37:40
  We're citizens of heaven, we're aliens and sojourners, and and and so heaven needs to be something that's shaping um, you know, uh uh everything about me.
• 37:52
  I need to have a heavenly mindset about um the use of my time, because I've got to redeem the time, the time is short.
• 38:00
  I gotta have a heavenly mindset about the suffering that I experience on earth.
• 38:05
  Um I I fear that there are some in in the health and wealth movement that give Christian the impression that you can find some version of heaven on the earth.
• 38:16
  And I just don't read that in the gospels, I don't read that in the New Testament.
• 38:20
  Um Jesus tells us we're going to have to take up our cross.
• 38:24
  Jesus tells us we're going to have to go through great tribulation.
• 38:27
  Uh and so uh the thought of heaven helps me to realize the tears, the suffering, the heartache, the brokenness.
• 38:35
  Someday it will end.
• 38:37
  And when you know there's when you know there's light at the end of the tunnel, when you know there's a finish line, it helps you, right?
• 38:44
  If you're rounding the corner on a race, Dr.
• 38:46
  T, and you're exhausted.
• 38:48
  But if you can see the finish line, doesn't it give you a second wind?
• 38:51
  Absolutely.
• 38:52
  It should be the same with heaven.
• 38:53
  Um again, what why why why should I serve?
• 38:57
  Why should I um as as Paul says in Corinthians, always be abounding in the work of the Lord, because we know our work is not in vain.
• 39:06
  Because according to the doctrine of the judgment seat of Christ, which I talked about in the book, everything I do in this world, if it's good and for God's glory, I'm going to get rewarded for that.
• 39:16
  That's a great incentive.
• 39:18
  I mean, if you if you work for bonuses, you know, the bonus motivates you.
• 39:22
  If I if I can get that deal, if I can get that uh seal, I get extra.
• 39:28
  And and heaven is is not a heaven is ours by gift, but there are rewards in heaven.
• 39:35
  Um I tell a story, I think, in the opening chapter.
• 39:38
  I love it.
• 39:38
  Uh Martin Luther King Jr., the civil rights leader.
• 39:43
  Um, when he was a young boy, he was dealing with segregation.
• 39:46
  And he tells this story every time he got on a bus, you know, whites to the front, colors to the back.
• 39:52
  He longed for the day that that would not be the case.
• 39:55
  And he said this.
• 39:56
  Every time I get on the bus, I set my mind on the front seat.
• 40:02
  And I took my body to the back row.
• 40:05
  And I longed for the day that my body would catch up with my mind.
• 40:10
  Loved it.
• 40:10
  And he worked to that end.
• 40:12
  And I thought it was a great illustration.
• 40:14
  Paul says to me, although my body's on the earth and my life is within time and space, I've got to have a mindset that's eternal.
• 40:24
  Look to the throne of God, the coming of millennial kingdom, the eternal state, and long that my body will catch up with my mindset.
• 40:31
  And so we long for the day to see Jesus.
• 40:34
  And I have reason to believe it.
• 40:36
  I mentioned in the first half hour.
• 40:38
  The word of God tells me about heaven.
• 40:40
  Jesus said this.
• 40:42
  Um if you believe in God, believe also in me.
• 40:46
  Uh, because in my father's house there are many mansions.
• 40:50
  Uh if it were not so, I would have told you.
• 40:53
  But I go to prepare a place for you.
• 40:56
  And if I go away, I will come again and receive you under myself.
• 41:00
  Jesus made me a promise, and he made you a promise, Dr.
• 41:03
  T, and he made your audience a promise that if we'll put our faith in him, he promises to take us to the Father's house, to heaven, and he has prepared us a place.
• 41:16
  Uh we mentioned earlier there uh it's it's secondary to belief in God's word and the revelation of Jesus Christ, but innately, um, lie on your bed and look through your window and you see the starry heavens and and you realize, you know, this is a vast universe, and and the the wonder of creation makes you believe there's a designer and there's a purpose, and and and you and we reach for the stars.
• 41:45
  Um, you know, um it's innate, you know.
• 41:48
  Elon Musk wants to create a new civilization in Mars.
• 41:52
  What produces that that uh adventurism?
• 41:56
  It's it's God who's put eternity in our hearts.
• 41:58
  So, you know, we we know it innately, but thank God we've got the absolute sufficient inerrant revelation of God's word, telling us where heaven is uh and how you can get there.
• 42:00
  We know it innately, but thank God we've got the absolute sufficient inerrant revelation of God's word telling us where heaven is and how you can get there.
• 42:09
  And look, I I can't miss this opportunity.
• 42:09
  And look, I I can't miss this opportunity.
• 42:12
  Not everybody goes to heaven.
• 42:12
  Not everybody goes to heaven.
• 42:15
  I I know that that's a striking statement.
• 42:15
  I know that that's a striking statement.
• 42:18
  Uh, but if you go to a uh uh uh you know a cemetery in your city, everybody's going to heaven.
• 42:18
  But if you go to a uh uh uh you know a cemetery in your city, everybody's going to heaven, but that's not the case.
• 42:24
  But that's not the case.
• 42:25
  Jesus said there's a broad road, and many there be that on it, and it leads to destruction.
• 42:25
  Jesus said there's a broad road, and many there be that on it, and it leads to destruction, and there's a narrow road that leads to life eternally says, enter by the narrow gate.
• 42:35
  And there's only one way to heaven, and that's Jesus.
• 42:38
  Because in that same passage in John 14, I'm the way, I'm the truth, I'm the life, a person, and no one gets to the Father but by me.
• 42:50
  I'm so glad that you interjected that there, because I think it's really, really important that we understand that this uh heaven is a is a place for believers.
• 43:01
  I find and I mentioned this before in the first half of the show about how uplifting your book is, and with all the crisis going on in the world today, and you know, whether it be you know, wars or rumors of wars or economic things or food shortages or whatever it is, your book is a great read for somebody that wants to be inspired and uplifted.
• 43:22
  What inspired you to write a book about the physical realities of heaven?
• 43:26
  It's a great question.
• 43:28
  Um there were several things.
• 43:30
  Um, I I have a belief I'm going there, and and again, it's not by works of righteousness which I do, but by God's mercy is saved me.
• 43:39
  It's what Jesus did on the cross, and I've put all my eggs in the Jesus basket.
• 43:44
  I've rested all my hope on the foundation of Jesus Christ.
• 43:48
  And so I believe I'm going there.
• 43:50
  And I don't know about you, we're all different, but if you're, you know, my wife and I are going, God willing, in a couple of weeks.
• 43:56
  Hopefully I don't make you jealous or stir up any envy.
• 43:59
  Dr.
• 44:00
  T, but we're going to Kawaii, which is a beautiful Hawaiian island, and we're going to stay in a nice uh resort there.
• 44:06
  And um, the first time I went to Kauai, this will be my third trip.
• 44:09
  You know, I went down to triple A and got a book, and I want to know what the food is, what the climate is, what is what's available to me there.
• 44:17
  And and so that's one of the driving.
• 44:19
  I want to know if I'm going to spend eternity, which is the what IW Tozer calls the long tomorrow.
• 44:25
  This is a short life.
• 44:27
  This is the ugly life.
• 44:28
  There's coming a long life, a long tomorrow, which is beautiful.
• 44:32
  Then I I, you know, I want to know.
• 44:34
  And God has revealed plenty to know about that life to come.
• 44:38
  Um, you know, my my mother died uh recently, and so it just stirred up in me.
• 44:45
  I loved her, she was a godly woman, and I kind of you know, wonder what she's doing.
• 44:50
  Uh what lies ahead for her?
• 44:52
  What what when I will I high and when will I meet her again?
• 44:56
  Will I recognize her?
• 44:58
  So all of that stirred me.
• 45:00
  Um I'm an expositor of God's word.
• 45:03
  And so I believe it's my role according to Acts 20 to preach the whole council of God.
• 45:09
  And so I decided a while ago in our church, which turned into the book, I did a 15, 16 part series on heaven, which was I also realized that tapped into something, Dr.
• 45:21
  T.
• 45:21
  Our people respond to that when I talked about we're back here.
• 45:25
  That's the ultimate heaven, back on earth.
• 45:28
  People were like, I need to hear more about that.
• 45:30
  I always thought we were like without bodies, when we're in heaven, floating about, and you know, so people have are somewhat ignorant of God's word on these subjects.
• 45:40
  Um, and then maybe lastly, there was there, maybe I'll add two other things.
• 45:45
  Um I'm a pastor, and I I visit the sick and the dying.
• 45:50
  And it's a wonderful thing to go to someone on their deathbed and and say, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer said, as we talked about in the first half hour, this is not the end, this is the beginning.
• 46:01
  And as uh, you know, 2 Corinthians 5, as you close your eyes in death, it's absent from the body and immediately present with the Lord.
• 46:09
  No soul sleep, no purgatory, you're immediately with the Lord.
• 46:13
  And that's it's a wonderful thing to go into hospice, cancer wards, hospital wards, and say, I've got good news for you, and there is hope.
• 46:23
  And the last thing, negative turning positive.
• 46:27
  I am concerned that there's a worldliness and a materialism about the church today.
• 46:35
  And there's even a theology that talks about bringing the kingdom.
• 46:39
  We're gonna bring the kingdom, we're gonna we're gonna take over the government, we're gonna, we're gonna turn uh earth into heaven.
• 46:46
  Well, that's not my job, and it's not uh your job or anybody's job.
• 46:50
  Jesus brings the kingdom, and that won't happen till the second coming.
• 46:54
  And and I I want to have my feet firmly in life.
• 46:59
  I want to make things better for our country.
• 47:01
  I I wish America success.
• 47:04
  Um I wish my children success.
• 47:07
  But all the time I'm thinking about this, the the nigh, and uh I want to think about the then.
• 47:14
  And I don't want to get so rooted in this life, I I forget about heaven, the judgment seat of Christ, eternal reward.
• 47:21
  And I I prop my ladder up against the wrong wall, and I may be climbing the ladder, and I may be succeeding, but I'm succeeding in the wrong things.
• 47:30
  So for all of those reasons and a few more, I I sat down and wrote the book.
• 47:36
  When you were doing your research, and you're you're you have a lot of Bible verses in your where you find where you find things about the dimensions of the Bible and all the things we've already got.
• 47:47
  You have a lot of Bible verses that you put in there.
• 47:49
  Was there anything in your research that when you found it, you went, oh gosh, and you were really surprised by that.
• 47:56
  I need to go back years uh to, you know, because I've been studying the Bible, so it's kind of you know, layer upon layer upon layer.
• 48:05
  It's not like anything in the book was like brand new.
• 48:09
  But but uh a couple of things hit me.
• 48:13
  Uh well, two or three things we've talked about, but we'll can't I again I was hit by I need to be heavenly minded.
• 48:19
  I need to bring the thought of heaven, it needs to become my filter when I'm watching the news, uh, when I get a doctor's report, when when I when uh like Ecclesiastes, when I think this life is vain and empty and and and and it's dissatisfying.
• 48:36
  So that I uh that was good for me.
• 48:39
  Um the judgment seat of Christ, I think it's a forgotten doctrine, which is a chapter in the book where um I get to heaven by faith alone.
• 48:51
  I don't get to heaven by my works, but but my works are not incidental.
• 48:56
  Um Jesus said uh, you know, um uh when I return, my I uh uh I'll come and my uh and my my reward is with me.
• 49:00
  Uh when I return, my I uh uh I I'll come and my uh and my my reward is with me.
• 49:06
  Um according to 2 Corinthians 5, 9 to 11 and 1 Corinthians 3, um I think about 10 to 13.
• 49:06
  Um according to 2 Corinthians 5, 9 to 11 and 1 Corinthians 3, um, I think about 10 to 13.
• 49:16
  We're gonna stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
• 49:16
  We're gonna stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
• 49:18
  That's not the great white throne.
• 49:18
  That's not the great white throne, that's where the unsaved are judged and sent to eternal punishment.
• 49:19
  That's where the unsaved are judged and sent to eternal punishment.
• 49:23
  The the judgment seat of Christ is a Greek word that means bima.
• 49:23
  The the judgment seat of Christ is a Greek word that means bhima.
• 49:26
  It was a raised platform, and judges would hand.
• 49:26
  It was a raised platform, and judges would hand out medals or wreaths of victory for those who ran or wrestled.
• 49:34
  And and it the judgment scooters were um rewards are handed out.
• 49:40
  And I think those rewards include uh authority and the kingdom to come, responsibility and the life to come, um, maybe an ability, uh Daniel 12, 1 to 2, where our bodies will shine and the uh the the the glory of God and in in greater and lesser capacities.
• 49:58
  I'll talk about that in the book.
• 50:00
  But that I you know, um that pushed me to to rededicate myself in new ways that uh Jonathan Edwards, a great American uh theologian said that um he used every day of his life to to acquire for himself as much happiness in the life to come as is possible.
• 50:23
  And and we're winning and losing every day.
• 50:25
  If we're not living fully for Christ, we're losing, we're losing reward.
• 50:29
  We're losing that well done.
• 50:31
  So that was bigger than just uh the one we have talked about.
• 50:34
  It was so refreshing again that ultimately my my future life is my present life but 2.0.
• 50:42
  I'll have a new body, I'll worship God freely and spontaneously.
• 50:48
  Um I will serve God happily, I will be part of the of the con of the subduing of a new earth and perhaps parts of the universe.
• 50:58
  Um, as we pursue the life that was lost in Eden through sin, it's been regained.
• 51:04
  And and we will we will uh you know, God will show his exceeding grace um uh throughout the ages.
• 51:12
  So those were the things that hit me with freshness and and newness, and we're good for my sanctification.
• 51:19
  You know, we've just got a few minutes left here today, Pastor Philip.
• 51:22
  I think you and have this discussion for a couple of more hours because your book had a lot of gems in it.
• 51:30
  And I uh I think at this uh this this podcast that we've done here together was a good overview of what your book was about.
• 51:37
  But why should people buy this book and put it in their personal library?
• 51:42
  Yeah, I mean, as we wrap up, I I hope they do.
• 51:44
  They can get it at Amazon.com, they can contact us at KTD.org.
• 51:48
  Uh number one, if you're not a Christian, I'd love you to read this book and find out the promises that Christ makes to those uh who put their trust in him.
• 51:57
  Uh, there are two destinies there's heaven or hell, and Jesus Christ is the decide the decision maker on that.
• 52:03
  And so I'd invite you to accept his invitation uh to trust him and to go to a place that he's prepared for you.
• 52:12
  Don't die in your sin.
• 52:14
  Die in Christ.
• 52:15
  To the believer, I'd come back to that idea.
• 52:19
  Um, waken up uh to the reality that this is a short, ugly life.
• 52:23
  This is where um God gives us things to do, assignments to fulfill, and we can't fall down on the job because our eternal happiness and our eternal rewards hang on that.
• 52:34
  And and and and we need to allow heaven to shape all that we do and drive all that we do.
• 52:39
  Heaven needs to be on us before we're in heaven.
• 52:42
  Dr.
• 52:42
  T if I can squeeze this in and wrap it up.
• 52:44
  I have a friend who told this story.
• 52:46
  A pastor was ganged up on in his church and kind of kicked out.
• 52:50
  Sad story, and and he went to his office and was clearing out 10 years, 15 years of ministry.
• 52:58
  It was really discouraging.
• 53:00
  A deacon follows him out to the car lot, he's got his box, he's getting as the car, and and uh uh the deacon says, I'm so sorry, this is wrong.
• 53:09
  Uh and um he says, you know, what are you gonna do now?
• 53:12
  And he said, It's okay, I'm going to heaven.
• 53:16
  And the deacon goes, well, Pastor, I know you're going to heaven, but what are you going to do now?
• 53:20
  You have no job, you're you're kind of insecure.
• 53:23
  He says it's okay, I'm going to heaven.
• 53:26
  And he said that a few times, and then the penny dropped.
• 53:29
  That is the answer to when you're sick.
• 53:32
  It's okay, I'm going to heaven.
• 53:34
  When someone betrays you or becomes your enemy, it's okay.
• 53:37
  I'm going to heaven.
• 53:39
  Um, when God asks you to sacrifice for his kingdom, do it, because it's okay.
• 53:44
  You're going to heaven.
• 53:45
  Uh, all the hardship and and and betrayal and hatred we get from the culture, it'll all melt away, Dr.
• 53:53
  T, in the first second we we get into heaven.
• 53:57
  And as the hymn says, you know, when we have been there 10,000 years, bright shining as the sun, we have no less days to praise his name as when we first begun.
• 54:07
  And I want that.
• 54:08
  That's my parting thought.
• 54:09
  Please get this mindset.
• 54:11
  Whatever is happening to you, allow the hope of heaven and being with God there to help you.
• 54:16
  It's okay.
• 54:17
  We're going to heaven.
• 54:18
  And if you don't know Christ, you need to fix that today, because you're not okay until you're going to heaven.
• 54:25
  What a powerful way to close out our powerful way to close out our time here together, Pastor, because it's really that is the bottom line.
• 54:33
  It doesn't matter which book you read, even when you read the good book, that is the bottom line.
• 54:39
  Do you sell your uh book from your website?
• 54:42
  We do.
• 54:42
  Um, and we'd love people to contact us, and there's a lot of material there, sermons, devotionals, ktt.org.
• 54:50
  But as the world we live in, some of the easiest ways to get it's just straight off Amazon.com.
• 54:55
  So either ktt.org or Amazon, and uh you'll find it Life After Life by Philip DeCorsey.
• 55:02
  I'd be I'd be honored uh to to be purchased and put in your library.
• 55:06
  I think as as I hope your experience will be that of Dr.
• 55:09
  Ts.
• 55:10
  It will be exciting and encouraging and give you something to truly look forward to.
• 55:15
  Well, I think that that's great.
• 55:16
  And if we can go to ktt.org and buy directly from you, that's a really good thing.
• 55:20
  If you're shopping around, we have put all of the guy all the books from all of our guests into our bookstore at bookstore.drtempedi.com, at bookstore.drtempendi.com, so you can find all of them.
• 55:32
  And this is one that I really feel strongly that you should read because it is so encouraging and so uplifting to Christians.
• 55:39
  And if you're not a Christian reading it, you'll want to become one.
• 55:43
  Because it's really uplifting.
• 55:45
  So, Pastor Corsi, thank you so much for being with us today and and being in sharing your wisdom about about heaven and how we should be living every day.
• 55:54
  It's such an uplifting story.
• 55:56
  And I want to thank all of our guests for joining us here today and every day at 3 p.m.
• 56:00
  3 p.m.
• 56:00
  Eastern time on the Tenpenny Files.
• 56:00
  Eastern time on the 10 penny files.
• 56:02
  And with that, I'm going to close out with one of my favorite verses from the Bible.
• 56:02
  And with that, I'm gonna close out with one of my favorite verses from the Bible.
• 56:05
  I clause all of my broadcasts with, whether it is live or pre-recorded, which is Romans 12, 12.
• 56:05
  I close all of my broadcasts with, whether it is live or pre-recorded, which is Romans 12 12.
• 56:11
  Rejoice in hope.
• 56:11
  Rejoice in hope.
• 56:13
  Be patient in trouble and be persistent in prayer.
• 56:13
  Be patient in trouble and be persistent in prayer.
• 56:16
  Remember that God is always there with you.
• 56:16
  Remember that God is always there with you.
• 56:18
  Trust him for everything.
• 56:18
  Trust Him for everything.
• 56:19
  He'll never let you down.
• 56:19
  He'll never let you down.
• 56:20
  His timeline may not be your timeline, but he's always there with you.
• 56:20
  His timeline may not be your timeline, but He's always there with you.
• 56:23
  So we'll see you tomorrow or at 3 p.m.
• 56:23
  So we'll see you tomorrow or at 3 p.m.
• 56:26
  Eastern right here on AmericaOut Loud.news and iHeartRadio or on
• 56:26
  Eastern right here on AmericaOut Loud.news and iHeartRadio or on our Substacks as we post them.
• 56:32
  Or if you join us on other podcast platforms, please do.
• 56:37
  Uh please share this out because more people that we reach, not only with this broadcast, but all of them, the more education that we can provide.
• 56:44
  So we'll see you tomorrow or the next time right here on the 10 penny files.
• 56:50
  Have a great rest of your day and rest of your week, everyone.
• 56:52
  Goodbye and God bless you.