Latest / Through the Sh#t with Jen McDowell / Ioana Bazavan | When Your "Best" is a Moving Target
Transcript
- speaker-0: I talk a lot with my coaching clients about, you know, we are not products. We go out and read the Amazon reviews, you know, 4.7 out of five stars for this thing. So when we talk about doing our best, especially in hindsight, you know, we start to woulda, shoulda, coulda. In reality, as human beings, best is a moving target, right? Like on a day where like you had a speaker-1: Mmm. speaker-0: great date last night and a really good night of sleep and you just finished a project successfully and all the things, your best today might be a 10 out of 10. If you were up with a sick child all night or you had a fight with your person or your project's going south, your best might be a two out of 10 today. If your company just got breached, your best is probably a minus 10 out of 10. So in those situations, That recovery might be getting you from a minus 10 out of 10 to like a zero out of 10. Right? And even getting to like a two out of 10 is miraculous. There is no 10 out of 10. speaker-1: Yeah, not yet. Welcome, I'm Jenn McDowell and you're listening to Through the Shit, a podcast for anyone going through the shit and the people who love them. In every episode, we'll hear a new story of loss, hope and resilience and how going through the shit led to something greater. So if you're in the shit now and feeling lost or alone, disconnected from your bad-ass self or in need of an ember of hope to keep putting one foot in front of the other, you're in the right place. So settle in, prepare to be moved and inspired and welcome Welcome everybody, you're listening to Through the Shit and I'm your host, Jenn McDowell. With me today is Awana Bozavan and I am so glad to have you here, Awana. speaker-0: Thank you so much for having me, Jen. This is really exciting. Yeah. speaker-1: Let's tell everybody how we met. We met recently. speaker-0: When was that like in early October, I think? Late September? I don't know. Last fall sometime. speaker-1: before we both did a bunch of travel. it was, you know. speaker-0: Yes, it was the James Garrett webinar. He was talking about how to get comfortable with discomfort. at the end of or towards the end of his session, he wanted people to like make a commitment to try something new that's uncomfortable. And we got paired together. And we've kept in touch and we've actually connected on our discomfortable, uncomfortable things. And yeah, it's been great. speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. And I think at some point in our conversation of what are we doing that's uncomfortable, I mentioned this podcast. I like, so I'm in this thing and putting myself out there in this way that seems really uncomfortable. ⁓ And then when I told you what it was about, you're like, ⁓ I've got a story of shit to tell. ⁓ here we are. ⁓ Let's do your bio and then we'll kind of dive in. So Awana Bazivan is a career cybersecurity professional. having designed strategies, implemented large transformational programs, run operations teams, and led breach recovery teams for Fortune 500 companies. In recent years, Awana has shifted her focus to leadership development and coaching, realizing that a lot of security and technology leaders she's worked with got their roles due to their technical skills and were struggling in their roles due to insufficient focus on their leadership skills. I feel like the law is the same way. Like you get promoted for being a good lawyer and then no one tells you what to what it means to be a manager. So recently in mid January, 2026, Iwona retired from corporate consulting and is now the founder and CEO. Yes. Of ⁓ Ocean Swell Opportunities, focused primarily on executive leadership coaching for cybersecurity and technology leaders. She also offers cyber advisory services to help boards, board members and senior executives get through their cybersecurity. speaker-0: Bye. shit. speaker-1: Yes. ⁓ When not working, Awana has a litany of other interests. Chief among them is traveling the world with her wife, scuba diving, and teaching others to safely navigate the wonders of the underwater world. She also plays the tuba and loves to do home improvement projects. And for anyone who is curious, the instrument in the background is an amalgamation of a trumpet, tuba, and trombone. It is a working sculpture. And I asked Awana if she would play it. And she said, no, it sounds like a dying elephant. speaker-0: Sick elephant. sounds like a sick elephant. It's not attractive, but it's fun. speaker-1: So for anyone who's watching the video and wondering what that thing is on her shelf in the background, that's what it is. Very cool. Okay. So, Awana, welcome. So glad you're here. Okay. So before we dive into the story, such a tea, right? In terms of like, we gotta wait until we get into the story. Tell me a little bit about what this idea of through the shit means to you in your story. speaker-0: Thank you. Me too. ⁓ so can I divulge the topic now? ⁓ yeah, shoot. speaker-1: So you're going to be telling us about work shit that taught you what? speaker-0: resilience. speaker-1: Okay, work shit that taught you resilience. ⁓ so yes, so please give us a little teaser. What's the story and then what does mean? What does through the shit mean? speaker-0: Yeah. So, so my shit was actually chosen shit. Part of my role in consulting was, I was on the shortlist for being called for breach recovery, leading breach recoveries. And I ended up actually doing two of those back to back a couple of years ago. And very, very large, very material breach recoveries. And this isn't the part of the recovery that's about like finding the, you know, doing the forensics and finding the bad guy and getting them out and stuff. It's actually recovering the business. So ⁓ this level of breach recovery, I would call it the corporate equivalent of your child being in the hospital in critical condition. Right? It's incredibly shocking. And, you know, for the people involved, it's like the worst day of their work lives. So it's a really interesting environment. It's grinding work, but there's a lot to be learned from it. speaker-1: So for you, through the shit is this idea of shock, unexpected. It's the worst thing. Having done a little bit of privacy work back when I was practicing ⁓ law and working in compliance, you get that phone call like, ⁓ shit, we just had something happen. And you're like. speaker-0: Dozens of terabytes of your very, very private data is out there now. speaker-1: Black web. ⁓ So yeah, it's that, ⁓ there goes my dinner plans tonight for and for the next three months or whatever. OK, so shock and expected. And then it's like grinding and grueling, right? Because then shit hits the fan. You've got to do the reporting and the disclosure. then if regulators are involved, everybody is down your throat. Yeah, so ⁓ high stakes, high pressure, grind for an extended period of time. Okay, awesome. Anything else? speaker-0: No, I think that coming in as the consultant ⁓ adds a flavor to it because there's a lot that the client has to do for themselves that we can't do. Like a lot of the things you just mentioned, the disclosures and the talking to Congress and all those things we can't do for them. We can help them prepare for that sort of thing, but they have to do it themselves, right? Because we are not the employees they are, right? And it's also, you come in as a stranger. Right, both times I was, they were not my existing normal day-to-day clients. So I was coming in, hi, here I am, you know, and it doesn't matter. You know, I'm pretty good at building relationships, but that doesn't matter. In that moment, you are the stranger coming in and trying to tell the CEO and the executive committee, here's what you need to do now. And they're freaked out. speaker-1: interest. speaker-0: And they're like, well, but is that really the right thing to do? but, you know, cause the gut instincts are in some cases different than what our experience tells us are the things you should be doing right now. And that's part of the advisory now is like, here's what really happens. Please prepare for this before it actually does happen. Cause you don't want that. speaker-1: Interesting. Interesting, okay. So I think there's a thread here to pull on the relationships and you're seeing people sort of at their worst on their worst workday ever, right? And so how do you navigate those relationships? But let's not ⁓ jump ahead. Let's stay kind of with the shit. So whenever you're ready, tell me your shit. speaker-0: Whoa. So I'll give you, know, the first one I jumped into. I arrived at the client site just after lunch, so about 1230 in the afternoon, you know, with travel and all the things. Between 1230 on Monday afternoon and about noon the next day, I got yelled at by the COO four times. And, you know, talking about resilience, like you have to really be... your own person and really centered in that moment. And that one was because I had just walked in, I wasn't expecting it quite so soon. And it was a little like, ⁓ my God, you know. ⁓ because here's this client that's yelling at you. And that's the first thing they tell you in consulting is don't piss off the client. And it was like, I didn't piss him off. Like I just got here. He's just pissed because his company's imploding. So yeah, it's a little scary. speaker-1: Okay. So you get there and you're already being screamed at. You're violating one of the cardinal rules of a consulting is don't piss off the client. But tell me a little bit like what happens beforehand. So from how quickly between the time that you got the call to 1230 on Monday, like tell me what happened before then. speaker-0: I was brought in as executive reinforcement. We had a team that had been on the ground for about a week and a half. So the breach had already happened almost two weeks prior. And nobody realized the extent of the breach. And part of that was because the client wasn't being honest with themselves or anybody else, right? They kept thinking, oh no, it's okay. And then it's like, oh shit, no, it's not. Oh, but now it is. ⁓ shit, no, it's not. We had this kind of repeating cycle like five or six times until we're like, stop saying it's okay. Here are the criteria for checking that it's okay before you say it's okay. Nobody realized. And part of what we bring in consulting to these things is manpower. You have to set up these 24 seven factories to recover and things like that. You know, we started with our typical team of six to go in and see what's going on and what needs happening. And within that week and a half, it ballooned to a team of 60. Phew. Yeah. And the client in their panic. just kind of thought, like we said, look, we come in with like processes for how to help you get back. And in their panic, they understood that to mean, we know how to recover every single one of your systems and applications, and we're gonna come in on a silver platter and give that all to you, which is not the case. Like we don't know their systems, you know, and they had a lot of pretty old systems. It's like, no, no, we have a process for how to help put the factories together and help you recover, standard operating procedure for how to recover your application number 23, right? speaker-1: We're guaranteed that it's all gonna come back. mean, it's like this idea of like something happens with your cell phone and they're like, we're gonna recover as much as we possibly can, but you only find out that you have a third of the pictures and phone numbers that you had saved. my God, okay. So you get in, it's noon on Tuesday, you've been screamed at four times. What next? speaker-0: And honestly, in that particular case, and this was a really interesting scenario between the two, as I mentioned, I did back to back. ⁓ The first client, their corporate culture was naturally a little bit bullying. ⁓ And when their world blew up, the bully really came out. ⁓ My second client was a very nurturing client. And when their shit hit the fan, they came together, right? And they implemented all these things to help, you know, make sure they started bringing in meals three times a day so people could eat and not have to worry about how am I getting lunch and things like that. You know, they set up little restrooms. Like if you were going to be working all night and you needed to go take a nap for 30 minutes, there's like a little room that was dark and quiet with pillows and blankets and things, right? First client didn't even think of any of that. Right. So it's really interesting how the corporate culture starts to come out ⁓ in those crisis situations. speaker-1: So we've kind of been talking exclusively on the first one and you had said it takes you a couple of weeks before you feel like the momentum is moving and then it's months before you are fully recovered. anything else from the second one, because you said you did them back to back, that's relevant here. speaker-0: even though they were different industries and different, I mean, very different companies, ⁓ the recovery was remarkably similar. I wish that more executives, you know, because they have this, ⁓ that won't happen to us attitude. speaker-1: Mm. speaker-0: And when it does, that depth of, shit, is so profound. ⁓ You're right, there's the grief, there's the shame, there's also lot of blame. Then they turn and it's like, well, whose fault is this and who didn't do, and it's like, and they sometimes want to spend that time. Why did this happen? And it's like, okay, right now that does not matter. The other interesting thing is how much and how quickly the business as usual perception goes back. speaker-1: Mmm. speaker-0: And I've seen breached clients, not just these two, but others, ⁓ where it's like security becomes this big thing for a few months. And then it kind of goes away. And the old behaviors come back. It was like, y'all, really? Because, and it's interesting because the statistic is that 80 % of companies that have had a breach We'll get popped again within six months. Oof. speaker-1: Oopsie. Yeah. So I mean, the things that I'm taking away here are one that like, and I'm thinking back to my own experiences as well, is like shit happens. Even if you are trying to be responsible and planning and having the right security protocols in place or, you know, the things that I was doing to try and, you know, protect myself from shit happening, shit happens. ⁓ The other thing I'm kind of curious about though is This concept of culture matters. And I'm curious, if you look at the organizations where the culture was crap and the organizations where the culture was good, and you talked about the client coming in and having the restrooms and bringing in lunch and caring for people as humans, do you see a correlation between culture and learning the lesson. speaker-0: Good question, and unfortunately I'm not around long enough. ⁓ I like to think it's more likely. There's a lot of neuroscience that says maybe not, right? The neuroscience and that it won't happen to me attitude is very much a neuroscience thing. speaker-1: Interesting. speaker-0: Right? Our brains are very good at, you know, this is what I believe and this is what feels safe. And so when you come with this thing over here that says, hey, this bad thing might happen, your brain's like, I'm going to discount that data point as like a way outlier because that's not safe and that's not what I believe. And that's in cybersecurity. That's why. I mean, if you look at our industry. Sure, the attack vectors have changed, right? We didn't have AI 20 years ago, right? We have now passwordless instead of passwords and all this. Like the technology has changed. The ways to be attacked have changed, but fundamentally what happens and how and why has stayed the same. Because fundamentally it's about the people. People used to laugh at me 25 years ago when I was kind of an early security person. And I'd be like, you know what? We wouldn't have security problems if we didn't have users. And everybody laughed, haha, right? Because you have to have users. That's whole point, right? ⁓ And that's still true. speaker-1: Interesting. Yeah, I I jotted down this idea that technology is still human, right? Which feels very relevant in this realm of AI. It's like, is it going to gain sentience and when and all of this stuff? It's like, there's still a person behind the technology. And because we as humans are perfectly imperfect, that sort of creates flaws in the technology, the way that we think about technology, and it's not going to happen to us. And ⁓ my gosh, super interesting. All right, so you're in the shit, you're resolving, you get the second phone call. ⁓ You talked about this idea of chosen shit, ⁓ which sometimes is like, ⁓ I did this to myself. So what lessons or wisdom do you have to share around this idea of chosen shit? speaker-0: But the learning opportunities are just huge. And that's why I'm saying it is chosen shit. I know what I'm getting into. And hey, I've learned how to deal with super stressed out CEOs. I've learned how to impress upon executive committees. what needs to be done even when they think it should be different. No, they don't always listen to me and they don't have to. but I've found my voice. speaker-1: Hmm. speaker-0: I have learned how to stand up for myself and how to, you know. Take up my space. when I am one person, a visitor in these people's company and their sky is falling. speaker-1: Yeah. A couple of things come up as I'm listening to you here. One is this idea of choosing the hard things. I mean, you said you had the choice. You had the choice to say no. When I look at that on sort of like a macro level, sometimes when you don't make the hard choice, it inevitably comes around again, and you have to make the choice again. Or it gets to the point where you can't not make the choice because you are now the employee and you have to face your shit. So yeah, even if you say no, sometimes if it's meant to be, it finds its way to you anyway. The other thing that I'm really curious about, because you talked about the toll that this takes, not only on you, but on the people who are employees. mean, your spouse. I'm assuming you were married at the time. But how do you manage that 18, 20 hour days? mean, you know. speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: You're eating like shit because you're tied to a computer, you're on-site or whatever. What gets you through those moments? speaker-0: Well, and eating like shit, you know, the second client that, you know, brought in three meals a day, that client was in the South. So breakfast was like biscuits and gravy and cinnamon, like the best cinnamon rolls I've ever had in my life. speaker-1: Let me go with the stick of butter. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, and lunch was like fried chicken and you know, I mean, and they brought in this huge variety and it was really good food, but it was not salad. mean, salad was an option, but even when salad was an option, like salad or this really amazing looking fried chicken. speaker-1: Yeah, comfort food! ⁓ speaker-0: I was super comforted. My scale, not so much, right? In both cases, for me, these were traveling engagements. So I would fly to the client, which in a way was better because I wasn't at home. I was in a hotel room. I... went back to my room to sleep basically. Shower and sleep. ⁓ This is one of the things, my wife Colleen, she knows the job. She knows what it means. ⁓ She knows that this is it. That for the foreseeable few weeks or months, it's like I don't exist. And I know that I have no life. So we talk on the phone when we can, we text. speaker-1: Yeah, okay. So a couple of things came up. One is that you had the ability to get some distance from the shit. You could go back to your hotel room and kind of just retreat into yourself. The other thing that came up for me was this idea of staying connected to what lights you up. Finding the small ways to stay connected so that you remember, ⁓ yeah, there is a light at the end of this tunnel. There is a reason why I'm doing this. There is a reason to have hope and be happy or whatever it is that you get out of that connection. ⁓ Let's go back to expectations now because you've said, Colleen, conversations with her. ⁓ It also goes back to what you said earlier about what expectations do you set with a client? The client comes in, thinks you're gonna come in riding on the white horse, give them the solution on a silver platter, right? So like, how do you set expectations? Maybe the question is, how have you learned to... modify expectation setting with the people around you based on these experiences, whether it's family, colleagues, clients, things like that. speaker-0: I've learned two things. One is to be very particular in my language and as much as possible to keep using the same language and being very consistent. Right? It's in this one, not that I'm a parent, but like I've seen this and Colleen's a teacher and she deals with a lot of kids, right? When you have a child having a meltdown, speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: They're not going to listen. You can't reason with them, you know, but your consistent behavior eventually calms them down. know, and it's the same with, you know, like, I know what's going to happen. I've done this before. It's part of my day job. They have never experienced this before. And they are flipping the fuck out. Anything I say in any given moment is not going to get through. But if I keep saying it and I keep showing up and they yell at me and I still show up and I'm still calm and I'm still doing the thing and I'm still showing them, eventually they're like, ⁓ I get it now. ⁓ And that's what I'm saying. You have to have a lot of center for yourself and not take any of that onslaught personally. Yeah. You know. ⁓ It's interesting because there's another element to this where you have a lot of employees where sometimes you have to like talk them into going home. Because not everybody is useful in that situation. And you know, some people can be useful by doing things like going and ordering lunch or bringing in lunch or you know, like more administrative type things, right? But if they're not, if they don't have a specific recovery job, and they can't help with like the support work. They'll mill around trying to be useful and they're not, and it's actually distracting. And getting them to go home is really hard because they feel like they're not useful or they're not adding value. And it's damaging to them on multiple levels now, because now they're worried about their company, they're worried about their job, they're worried about why am I not useful, you know. So I think the other kind of lesson learned in all of this is how do you find those words? How do you tell someone, it's not that you're not valuable, it's not that we don't love you, but please go home? You know, it's a hard message. It's a hard message to be heard in the way that you intend. speaker-1: Yeah, and I mean, even as we're kind of talking, I see so many parallels between like work shit and life shit. ⁓ You're talking about this idea like language matters, calm consistency matters, both in terms of your words and your presence. Sometimes it's this idea of permission to let go, making sure that people are valued and appreciated. And I'm thinking back to, as you were talking, I was thinking of the circumstance where my mom was in the hospital and she was dying. And like, it felt so helpless. And I'm not a healthcare provider. I can't do shit, right? So, ⁓ but my presence made me feel better. And I just paced around the room, right? Because I had nothing else to do. Probably annoying the fuck out of her as she was like in her final days. ⁓ But that's what I needed to do. It felt like I was contributing in some way. Yeah, exactly. Having someone say like, go get a fucking cup of coffee. Go home and go to sleep or try to sleep or whatever. Yeah, interesting. Okay, so let's go back to the relationships. Cause you just talked now about like sometimes you got to tell people things that may not land well, whether it's executives, the clients, we're only going to recover part of this. You got to go home. You're not helping. ⁓ And yet you're a stranger, right? You said right at the drop. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, exactly. speaker-1: relationships matter and you're dealing with people on the worst day of their professional life. How do you build those relationships? How do you maintain those relationships after being screamed at four times in 24 hours? speaker-0: And that's where the consistency comes in. And understanding that in that moment, it's not personal, even though it may feel really personal. This is a human who is very scared, legitimately concerned about the existence of their company, their job, their reputation. Because any one of those people is also at that point thinking, ⁓ my God, did I do something? Did I make a decision? that led to this breach being possible. Right? So they're dealing with their own self-judgment. They're dealing with, don't know what to do. I don't know how to make this go away. So they're feeling incredibly vulnerable and ineffective. And when your title is CXO and you're terrified and you don't know what to do, there is no worse feeling in the world, professionally. Right? ⁓ speaker-1: Hmm. speaker-0: So it's just like, you know, kind of being what they need. which is, you know, sometimes it's punching bag, you know, sometimes it's shoulder, sometimes it's ear, you know, it's, but just, you know, being consistent and continuing to show up and showing, hey, this is the progress we made today. Here are the issues that we ran into and what we're doing about them, right? It's starting to rebuild that sense of consistency and normalcy that just completely caved out from under them. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, for me, as I'm listening to you, it's this idea of like recognizing the humanity at the heart of it all ⁓ and going back to that stable, consistent, calm presence. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. Interesting. And doing your best to not get swept up and freak out. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, being able to be far enough removed from it that you can kind of see what's going on for what it is. It's like these are people trying to do the right thing and they got hit with something awful and they're not at their best and right, like not taking it personally. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: And it's really hard, right? Because we all have the mirror neurons, right? And so when you have a room full of people that's all freaked out, right? You're gonna get pulled to that freak out too. So like trying to hold back is really, really hard. And that's why I'm saying it takes a toll. Even though you know that and you're expecting it and whatever, it's still really hard not to get pulled into it. Right? And it's easy for me to sit here in my office when it's not happening to say, ⁓ yeah, you've got to keep your center and whatever. In the thick of it? Not nearly as easy as I'm describing it. speaker-1: Yeah. I've been keeping a running list here of all of the things that you've been saying either implicitly or explicitly around lessons that are learned. And I mean, the list is long. It's everything from relationships matter to culture matters to the humanity of the situation. Recovery takes time. ⁓ Recovery requires trial and error. ⁓ You've got to monitor your progress, right? Like, it's not just like one day it's all better. You've got to be able to see the incremental progress in order to keep going. ⁓ Shit happens even when you've tried to prevent it. ⁓ You also talk personally about resilience and finding your voice and, you know, being able to navigate those high stakes, high pressure environments, the ability to influence, ⁓ language matters, learning restraint. Like, what other gems? speaker-0: This is why you choose this sort of shit, right? The litany of lessons learned. It also, to me, redefines the definition of best. I talk a lot with my coaching clients about, you know, we are not products, right? We go out and read the Amazon reviews, you know, 4.7 out of 5 stars for this thing. Cool, that's really good, right? We are not an iPhone. And so when we talk about doing our best, especially in hindsight, we start to woulda, shoulda, coulda, because it's hindsight, right? In reality, as human beings, best is a moving target, right? Like on a day where you had a great date last night and a really good night of sleep and you just finished a project successfully and all the things, your best today might be a 10 out of 10. Right? If you were up with a sick child all night or you had a fight with a person, with your person or, you know, your project's going south, your best might be a two out of 10 today. If your company just got breached, your best is probably a minus 10 out of 10. You know, right? So, so in those situations, right, that recovery might be getting you from a minus 10 out of 10 to like a zero out of 10. Right? And even getting to like a two out of 10 is miraculous. There is no 10 out of 10. speaker-1: Yeah, not yet. speaker-0: Never. You know, like you're not, there is no 10 out of 10 in breach recovery, right? ⁓ So understanding that every day there are going to be mistakes. There are going to be setbacks, right? And some of them is people making mistakes because they're exhausted or whatever, right? In my second recovery, they had a room, right? Because there are so many physical servers that were compromised. They had them unplugged from the network in a separate room where there was a team that did the cleanups and then labeled them with a colored sticker. And then they got moved to another room where they got connected to a special network for additional testing and stuff before they got moved to the green network. Wow. And several times somebody almost accidentally plugged a still not clean machine into the green network, they would have had to start all over again. Not anything anybody did maliciously, but everybody was so exhausted and so stressed out. That kind of stuff happens. Backups that turned out to be corrupted. ⁓ I had a different breach several years ago where one of the first things, attacker did was get to the backups and delete them all. There are no backups. Now what do you do? Super ⁓ shit, right? ⁓ So it's not just ⁓ shit we've been breached. Every day there are a bunch of new ⁓ shits. And some of them are technological, some of them are mistakes, some of them are new discoveries. speaker-1: Yeah. Mm. speaker-0: And that's where the resilience is like, just kind of, know, the hits just keep on coming and how do you, how do you stand up one more time? speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. So the best is a moving target and gotta find a way to stand up. So I think that segues with the last question in terms of like someone who's going through the shit, whether it's work shit or life shit or all of the above. Like, what do you tell them, Alana? speaker-0: I tell them find ways to find your center and to give yourself the benefit of the doubt, give the people around you the benefit of the doubt, and acknowledge that sometimes your best is a minus two out of 10. Because I guarantee you on any given day, you are doing your best. but best doesn't mean 10 out of 10. Each day that's gonna be different, right? And absolutely you can learn from it, but don't waste time beating yourself or others up. That's wasted energy that you need to help you continue to slog. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, so find your center. Negative two out of 10, if that's the best you got. Don't beat yourself or others up for it. Okay. Well, Awana, thank you so much for telling me your shit and all of the lessons. mean, there were so many lessons from your experience. Listeners, so glad to have you here listening to the story of shit, and we'll see you on the flip side. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: That's it for this episode of Through the Shit. Thanks for listening. If you liked this podcast, like, share, and subscribe, and maybe send it to someone who needs a boost because they're going through the shit. While you're at it, tell them how important they are to you. If you have a story of shit to share or you're in the shit now, I'd love to hear from you. Email me at throughtheshitpodcasts.gmail.com or go to our website at throughtheshit.com. I'll see you on the flip side.