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Philip Goldberg – Karmic Relief · Vox Novus with Victor Fuhrman

0:05
Speaker 1: Vox Novus, the new Voice, Vox Novas, the new dimension,
0:14
Speaker 1: Vox Novas thought and movement leaders who will share from
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Speaker 1: their experience and offer tools to help us navigate our
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Speaker 1: rapidly changing world. My name is Victor Furman. Welcome to
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Speaker 1: Vox Novus, the New Voice. Karma is in our vocabulary,
0:39
Speaker 1: but do we really know what it means? The word
0:43
Speaker 1: is everywhere, not just in alternative spirituality and among Hindus
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Speaker 1: and Buddhists, but in news reports, ads, sitcoms, sports columns,
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Speaker 1: and the everyday conversation of people who wouldn't know the
0:57
Speaker 1: Upanishads from US magazine. My guest this week on Box
1:02
Speaker 1: novis Philip Goldberg, joins me to share a little karmic relief.
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Speaker 1: Philip Goldberg has been studying the world spiritual wisdom for
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Speaker 1: more than fifty years as a practitioner, teacher, and author.
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Speaker 1: His many books include American Veda from Emerson and the Beatles,
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Speaker 1: to Yoga and Meditation, and How Indian Spirituality Changed the West,
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Speaker 1: named one of the top ten Religion books of the
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Speaker 1: Year by the American Library Association. He has lectured and
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Speaker 1: taught at venues throughout North America and India, and conducted
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Speaker 1: online courses for platforms such as Spirituality and Practice, Embodied Philosophy,
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Speaker 1: and Hindu University of America. He hosts the podcast spirit
1:48
Speaker 1: Matters with Philip Goldberg at Mind, Body, Spirit dot fm,
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Speaker 1: serves on the board of the Association for Spiritual Integrity,
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Speaker 1: and writes regularly on his substack, Practical Spirituality. His website
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Speaker 1: is Philip Goldberg dot com, and he joins me this
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Speaker 1: week to share his path and new book, Karmic Relief,
2:10
Speaker 1: Harnessing the Laws of Cause and Effect for a joyful,
2:14
Speaker 1: meaningful Life. Please join me in welcoming back, Philip Goldberg.
2:19
Speaker 1: Welcome Phil, good to be back with you, Vic, Phil.
2:24
Speaker 1: This is our third interview together.
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Speaker 2: Amazing is that a record?
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Speaker 1: I actually have someone who has five interviews. I'm not
2:34
Speaker 1: going to mention any names, but no, but three is
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Speaker 1: the next level of a record. So absolutely, okay, I'm honored,
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Speaker 1: thank you and congratulations for this wonderful and timely new book.
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Speaker 1: The last time you were on with me was in
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Speaker 1: twenty twenty and we were discussing your best selling book,
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Speaker 1: Spiritual Practice for Crazy Times, and I kidded you about
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Speaker 1: the fact that we were two boys from Brooklyn talking
2:59
Speaker 1: about Eastern spirituality. For listeners meeting you for the first time,
3:04
Speaker 1: please share your early path and how it led to
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Speaker 1: your calling.
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Speaker 2: Well as you indicate, I grew up in Brooklyn before
3:14
Speaker 2: it was hip like you, and when it was mostly
3:21
Speaker 2: a working class melting pot, ethnic and religious melting pot.
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Speaker 2: And I grew up not just in a non religious household,
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Speaker 2: but an anti religious household. But then when I was
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Speaker 2: a college student, well, the period we think of as
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Speaker 2: the sixties with capital s erupted and I was one
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Speaker 2: of the many people searching for answers to the important
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Speaker 2: questions about life, and wondering how to live well and
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Speaker 2: have a fulfilling life and a not ordinary life, and
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Speaker 2: wondering what I was, who I was, how do I
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Speaker 2: fit into the rest of the cosmos. And as part
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Speaker 2: of those the zeitgeist at that time, I discovered books
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Speaker 2: about Eastern spiritual teachings. First Zen because I was fond
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Speaker 2: of the Beat poets, and then what we think of
4:37
Speaker 2: as Yoga philosophy and Vedanta philosophy. Basically what the world
4:42
Speaker 2: thinks of is Hinduism and Buddhism, but without the religious overlay,
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Speaker 2: and something about those teachings had a strong appeal for me,
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Speaker 2: and I just wanted to read as much as I could.
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Speaker 2: I became immersed in it, and everything pointed to the
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Speaker 2: importance of spiritual practices like mostly meditation at the time,
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Speaker 2: and what we think of as yoga, and so I
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Speaker 2: took them up as methods of self discovery and self improvement,
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Speaker 2: and they worked and they transformed my life, and I
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Speaker 2: got more deeply immersed in them, and years later I
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Speaker 2: became a teacher of meditation. And when I became when
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Speaker 2: I turned to what I think was my true calling
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Speaker 2: it professionally to write and speak and use my whatever
5:47
Speaker 2: gifts with words I had, I naturally drifted to writing
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Speaker 2: about those subjects that had been so important to me
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Speaker 2: personally and less fifteen sixteen years that's been the focal
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Speaker 2: point of my writing, in public speaking and so forth.
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Speaker 2: So that's the nutshell version of it.
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Speaker 1: And that's a wonderful nutshell. Before we get into karmic relief,
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Speaker 1: let's talk about spiritual practice for crazy times. What inspired
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Speaker 1: that book and what did you share with your readers.
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Speaker 2: You know, it's odd, but the book came out shortly
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Speaker 2: after COVID erupted, and so we added a one paragraph
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Speaker 2: to the preface or the introduction. But most people thought
6:42
Speaker 2: I wrote it because times were crazy, thanks to COVID.
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Speaker 2: But you know, I'd been working on the book for
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Speaker 2: a year or more prior to that. No one expected COVID.
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Speaker 2: But times were crazy, you know, beginning in twenty seventeen
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Speaker 2: eight team when the Trump era began, And so I
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Speaker 2: wrote the book because people were struggling with how to
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Speaker 2: make sense of things, and I thought spiritual practices of
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Speaker 2: various kinds were very important in the equation of how
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Speaker 2: to stay sane and how to stay stable and centered
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Speaker 2: while dealing with the eruption of changes in the world.
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Speaker 2: And then when COVID happened, it was just good timing. Well,
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Speaker 2: bad timing for the world, but good timing for a
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Speaker 2: book with that with that title. And so there it is.
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Speaker 2: And as the years go by, I find myself when
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Speaker 2: the subject comes up of saying, well, it's still crazy
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Speaker 2: and crazy in different ways, and so the book maintains
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Speaker 2: its relevance.
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Speaker 1: Are you going to release it with a new forward?
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Speaker 2: I could, but I don't think in a sense it's
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Speaker 2: not even necessary. If anybody doubts that were in crazy times,
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Speaker 2: they need more than a new forward to realize how
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Speaker 2: crazy things are.
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Speaker 1: I remember an outstanding essay that you wrote entitled Spiritual
8:28
Speaker 1: Responsibility in the Age of Black Lives Matter, And to
8:32
Speaker 1: quote a line from that essay, you said, our long
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Speaker 1: overdue moment of reckoning is a spiritual challenge, not just
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Speaker 1: a social or political one. We're called upon to stretch
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Speaker 1: beyond our comfort zones, to introspect rigorously and self assess. Honestly,
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Speaker 1: that was five years ago. Where did we go wrong?
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Speaker 1: And what made me do about it?
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Speaker 2: Well, I'm honored that you remembered that or dug it up.
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Speaker 2: I didn't remember it, but I would say the same
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Speaker 2: thing now, only you know, in a different context. And
9:08
Speaker 2: the reason I did that is, you know, the eruption
9:13
Speaker 2: of protests and everything after the murder of George Floyd
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Speaker 2: and the Black Lives Matter movement. It was a turning
9:24
Speaker 2: point in our social contract in a sense. And as
9:30
Speaker 2: somebody of a certain age who came of age in
9:32
Speaker 2: the sixties during the Civil rights era, it was shocking
9:36
Speaker 2: to me that people that the fact of racism and
9:44
Speaker 2: what's called structural racism and all the you know, inequalities
9:50
Speaker 2: that are systemic, that it wasn't just common knowledge that
9:57
Speaker 2: it had to be revealed to people once again. And
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Speaker 2: I found that shocking. But maybe it's just a reflection
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Speaker 2: of my age or the times I grew up in.
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Speaker 2: And now I think, you know, we're facing a different
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Speaker 2: kind of danger and threat. And one of the reasons
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Speaker 2: I address that and have written certain things more recently
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Speaker 2: is that, well, at a certain point, there was a
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Speaker 2: tendency among spiritual people to think, oh, all this will pass,
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Speaker 2: and this is just the way of things, and if
10:44
Speaker 2: we just continue to evolve us on a spiritual level,
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Speaker 2: it'll all take care of itself. And I felt that
10:55
Speaker 2: there was a certain escapism in that, or a certain
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Speaker 2: denial or naivete that certain people who care about other
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Speaker 2: human beings and care about issues of justice and fairness
11:13
Speaker 2: in the world and would like to see unnecessary suffering
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Speaker 2: ended had a responsibility to engage in the world and
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Speaker 2: not just think you can pray it or meditate it
11:31
Speaker 2: or mindfulness it away. And I still feel that way.
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Speaker 2: I think there's great threats to our freedoms and our
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Speaker 2: democracy and what we hold dear, and people who are
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Speaker 2: spiritually aware and compassionate and care need to do more
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Speaker 2: to engage in actions that might make a contribution, whatever
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Speaker 2: that may be. I'm not calling on everybody to storm
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Speaker 2: the barricades. Not everybody's an activist, but anything we can
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Speaker 2: do to make the world a little better and not
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Speaker 2: just internalize our spirituality in the spirit of other spiritual
12:26
Speaker 2: leaders who engaged in the world, whoever you want to
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Speaker 2: call upon as a role model, whether Jesus or Buddha,
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Speaker 2: or the prophets or Tick not Han or Martin Luther
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Speaker 2: King or whoever. There's a certain degree of engagement that
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Speaker 2: I think we're called upon to take up.
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Speaker 1: At the time, you shared that the remedy for this
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Speaker 1: was taking on sacred citizenship. How do you define that
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Speaker 1: and is it still possible.
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Speaker 2: I think it's not only possible, it's necessary, and I'm
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Speaker 2: very encouraged. You know, I'm involved with different aspects of
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Speaker 2: the spiritual community. I'm on the board of the Association
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Speaker 2: for Spiritual Integrity. I interview people on my own podcast
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Speaker 2: all the time. I talk to people, and I'm very
13:29
Speaker 2: happy to hear that those signs of escapism and denial
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Speaker 2: that I talked about that I observed five six years
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Speaker 2: ago are not happening now. People care and people are
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Speaker 2: aware and being good spiritual citizens. It matters to people
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Speaker 2: that spirituality is an internal thing, and it's an individual thing.
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Speaker 2: Those of us who are in position of communicating teachings
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Speaker 2: to others or teaching them ourselves, we want to help
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Speaker 2: people develop the internal spiritual resources of expanded awareness, inner peace,
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Speaker 2: all those wonderful symptoms that go with spiritual growth. But
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Speaker 2: we also want them to not turn their backs on
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Speaker 2: their neighbors and their fellow citizens and the social and
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Speaker 2: political realities, because we have a special responsibility, because we
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Speaker 2: recognize the importance of the inner dimension of life as
14:45
Speaker 2: well as outer security, outer peace, outer harmony, because one
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Speaker 2: feeds on the other. And so I think it's necessary.
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Speaker 2: I think it's not only possible, but.
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Speaker 1: Absolutely What inspired your new book, Karma Relief Harnessing the
15:06
Speaker 1: Laws of Cause and Effect for a Joyful, meaningful Life.
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Speaker 2: Well, you know, we talked about my early longstanding interest
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Speaker 2: in Eastern philosophy, and one key concept in that system,
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Speaker 2: those systems of ideas and insights is the concept of karma.
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Speaker 2: And so I became interested in it early on and
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Speaker 2: wondered if it was true and it was really the
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Speaker 2: case that there's justice in the universe and laws of
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Speaker 2: cause and effect analogous to the laws of physics are
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Speaker 2: in play, and that, as we say colloquially, we reap
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Speaker 2: what we sew. What goes around comes around. All of
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Speaker 2: our actions have a consequence in the world that comes
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Speaker 2: back to us, whether wanted or unwanted. And it's a
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Speaker 2: lovely framework for a fair and just universe. But is
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Speaker 2: it true? And so I wrestled with that for many
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Speaker 2: years and finally came to the conclusion that I can
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Speaker 2: neither prove it nor refute it. No one can, but
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Speaker 2: that it's a good bet. I decided, you know, to
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Speaker 2: err on the side of accepting karma as a reality,
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Speaker 2: because I noticed that when I made decisions, when I
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Speaker 2: looked at situations in life, assuming karma was true and
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Speaker 2: real and the universe was lawful in those ways, I
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Speaker 2: made better choices and I was a better person for it,
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Speaker 2: And so that became an interesting addition to how I
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Speaker 2: see the world, and to be honest, the title Karmic
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Speaker 2: Relief came before before the idea for a book, back
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Speaker 2: in the days when Robin Williams and Whoopi Goldberg and
17:26
Speaker 2: Billy Crystal were doing the comic relief charity of TV shows.
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Speaker 2: I thought, I started using the term karmic relief, and
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Speaker 2: at one point I said, Gee, that would make a
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Speaker 2: good book title. Maybe I should write a book about karma.
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Speaker 2: And I put it on the shelf for a long time,
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Speaker 2: but it became more and more relevant because the word
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Speaker 2: karma kept being used in public more and more. I'd
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Speaker 2: hear it on sportscat, I'd hear it on news reports.
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Speaker 2: I'd hear it in pop songs. Taylor Swift has a
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Speaker 2: song about karma. Alicia Keys had a song about karma.
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Speaker 2: Willie Nelson had a song about karma. So I kept
18:14
Speaker 2: seeing it and it showed up in everyday speech. But
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Speaker 2: I realized people have an intuitive understanding of what karma
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Speaker 2: is and means, but they often misconstrue it and get
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Speaker 2: it wrong. And so I kept thinking, maybe I should
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Speaker 2: do a book about it, and eventually my wife and
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Speaker 2: my agent convinced me to do it. And so here
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Speaker 2: it is.
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Speaker 1: There it is. Where did the idea of karma originate?
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Speaker 1: And what does it really mean?
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Speaker 2: The Sanskrit real translation is simply action, So you see
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Speaker 2: references to karma in the earliest literature of the Vedic
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Speaker 2: period of India as goes back thousands of years, usually
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Speaker 2: meaning action and then meaning ritual actions to create certain
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Speaker 2: effects in the world, and over time, at least as
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Speaker 2: they show up in the Oral traditions and the texts
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Speaker 2: from the East, it evolved into a deeper and more
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Speaker 2: nuanced explanation of action in general, and the notion that
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Speaker 2: everything we do, and not just do, but everything we
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Speaker 2: even think and say, has a consequence in the world
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Speaker 2: that is far reaching in its impact throughout the universe.
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Speaker 2: Almost like electrons and vibrations emanate through the universe, so
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Speaker 2: do the vibrations of our actions, our thoughts, and they
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Speaker 2: come back to us as what we think of, you know,
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Speaker 2: naively as good karma or bad karma, meaning there are consequences,
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Speaker 2: and some of those consequences are things were glad happened
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Speaker 2: to us, and others are things we wish didn't happen
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Speaker 2: to us based on what we've done in the past,
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Speaker 2: And we're creating new karma all the time. And that's
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Speaker 2: how at a certain period of the Eastern traditions it
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Speaker 2: began to be more and more articulated and eventually sophisticated
20:41
Speaker 2: concepts of karma and explanations of karma came down and
20:46
Speaker 2: they found their way to the West along with the
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Speaker 2: others aspects of Eastern teachings, and they eventually became part
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Speaker 2: of our vocabulary and our frame of reference. I think
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Speaker 2: if you ask most people if what karma means, they'll
21:05
Speaker 2: have a pretty good approximation of, you know, we reap
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Speaker 2: what we sew or something like that. But then again,
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Speaker 2: as I said, it's a much more nuanced thing. And
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Speaker 2: I felt an explanation in a book that clarifies what
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Speaker 2: karma is and what it's not and why it's relevant
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Speaker 2: and useful concept if we want to live a happier life,
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Speaker 2: I felt the book would be useful.
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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting you would mention the pop songs
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Speaker 1: that feature karma, and I can only think back to
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Speaker 1: John Lennon's Instant Karma.
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Speaker 2: Right, Instant Karma. It was one of the early ones,
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Speaker 2: early seventies. But then I did a search when I
21:51
Speaker 2: thought about the book, and like more than one hundred
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Speaker 2: and fifty titles came up on iTunes with the word
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Speaker 2: karma or kara in the lyrics or the title, including,
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Speaker 2: as I said, Willie Nelson has Us had a song
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Speaker 2: called a little old Fashioned Karma, and then were recently
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Speaker 2: Alicia Keys and famously Taylor Swift and others. You know,
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Speaker 2: it was the song in the I think the eighties
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Speaker 2: called Karma Chameleon, remember that.
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Speaker 1: One, boy George Karma Chamelion.
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Speaker 2: Yes, but they all, most of them are about They're
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Speaker 2: in the genre of music of you've done me wrong
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Speaker 2: and now you're going to get it. You know, karma
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Speaker 2: is going to come after you, and we've That's how
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Speaker 2: most of us think. When you hear people use karma,
22:49
Speaker 2: it's usually in the negative, like your team loses, they
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Speaker 2: have bad karma. Candidate does make some mistake, bad karma,
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Speaker 2: something happens in the world, it must be karma, bad
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Speaker 2: karma coming back to the person. But all the good
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Speaker 2: stuff is karma too, you know, and we forget that.
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Speaker 2: We're filled with blessings in our life all the time.
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Speaker 2: You know, it's good karma that I'm here talking to you,
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Speaker 2: and it's good karma that your listeners are maybe learning something.
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Speaker 2: And it's good karma that you got to check in
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Speaker 2: the mail today, or that you know you've got a
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Speaker 2: new job, or you met someone you love. All these
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Speaker 2: things are a product of good karma, and we forget
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Speaker 2: about that, but it's important to keep aware of it.
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Speaker 1: My guest is Philip Goldberg. His new book Karmak Relief,
23:43
Speaker 1: Harnessing the Laws of Cause and Effect for a joyful,
23:46
Speaker 1: meaningful Life. Philip, please share with our listeners where they
23:49
Speaker 1: can get all of your books and find out more
23:51
Speaker 1: about you.
23:52
Speaker 2: Well. You get all of my books, including Karmak Relief
23:55
Speaker 2: and the usual booksellers if you're If you like using Amazon,
24:02
Speaker 2: it's there there. If you like using other booksellers online,
24:07
Speaker 2: they are there. If you like going to your local bookstores,
24:11
Speaker 2: which I encourage people to do, I hope the books
24:14
Speaker 2: are in stock and they'll certainly order them for you.
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Speaker 2: My website is Philipgoldberg dot com. My sub stack, which
24:25
Speaker 2: I write on fairly often, is called Practical Spirituality. My
24:32
Speaker 2: podcast is called Spirit Matters.
24:36
Speaker 1: And we'll be back with more Phil after these words.
24:38
Speaker 1: On the Own Times Radio network.
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Speaker 3: The cutting edge of conscious radio. Home Times Radio I
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Speaker 3: own FM. Ome Times Magazine is one of the leading
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Speaker 3: humanity on a global scale. Home Times co creating a
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25:13
Speaker 1: We're back with Philip Goldberg his brand new book Karma Relief,
25:18
Speaker 1: Harnessing the Laws of Cause and Effect for a joyful,
25:22
Speaker 1: meaningful Life, phil are the popular notions of what karma
25:26
Speaker 1: is at all accurate?
25:29
Speaker 2: Oh, They're mostly accurate in the general sense. People know
25:35
Speaker 2: that karma and the laws of karma are indicative of
25:42
Speaker 2: a universe where everything we do matters and has consequences,
25:47
Speaker 2: whether good or bad or indifferent, and that every karma,
25:53
Speaker 2: if it's real, suggests that whatever we do has consequences
25:59
Speaker 2: for us as well. So generally yes, But at the
26:03
Speaker 2: same time, there's a lot of misconceptions, and I run
26:07
Speaker 2: into misuses of the term or incomplete uses of the
26:14
Speaker 2: term all the time. For example, I just mentioned in
26:19
Speaker 2: the last segment that we have a tendency to think
26:22
Speaker 2: of karma or use the term karma when bad things happen,
26:27
Speaker 2: as if it were retribution by some cosmic judiciary for
26:36
Speaker 2: us doing bad things in the world. But karma the
26:41
Speaker 2: laws of karma apply to everything. Everything that happens is
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Speaker 2: the result of past karma. Everything we do now in
26:50
Speaker 2: the present will produce karma in the future. So the
26:55
Speaker 2: good things, the neutral things, and the negative things are
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Speaker 2: all the product of karma. In physics, there's the concept
27:04
Speaker 2: that every action has an equal and opposite reaction, and
27:08
Speaker 2: that applies to the material universe, you know, Newton's laws
27:14
Speaker 2: and so forth. Karma is very similar. It suggests that
27:19
Speaker 2: everything we do and say and think has an equal
27:22
Speaker 2: and opposite reaction. So we send out everything reverberates through
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Speaker 2: the universe, and it affects other people and the environment
27:33
Speaker 2: in different ways, to different degrees, depending on you know,
27:38
Speaker 2: distance and the closeness of relationship and all those multiple factors,
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Speaker 2: and they come back to us in ways we can't
27:48
Speaker 2: predict or necessarily anticipate. Sometimes it's obvious if you insult somebody,
27:58
Speaker 2: the chances are you'll reap the consequences of being cruel
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Speaker 2: fairly quickly in some way or another. You're on a
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Speaker 2: red light, you might suffer the consequences immediately with a
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Speaker 2: ticket or an accident, or maybe not so. But some
28:19
Speaker 2: things are sort of what John Lennon called instant karma.
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Speaker 2: But for most of our actions, they're much more subtle,
28:28
Speaker 2: much more nuanced. They interact with the karma of other people.
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Speaker 2: So things get a little uncertain and unpredictable. But everything
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Speaker 2: is karma, and everything we do will come back to
28:45
Speaker 2: us in one way or another at some time or another.
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Speaker 2: But it's not just retribution. It's not like somebody, you know,
28:56
Speaker 2: some god figure is calculating re word words and punishment.
29:01
Speaker 2: It's more like the laws of science. There are causes
29:07
Speaker 2: and effects, just like there is if you throw a
29:10
Speaker 2: pebble in a pond or hit a billiard ball on
29:15
Speaker 2: a pool table. There's consequences that reverberate and bounce back.
29:23
Speaker 1: Are there things that are not part of karma?
29:27
Speaker 2: No, not, If you take the laws of karma seriously,
29:31
Speaker 2: In the theory of karma seriously, everything in the manifest
29:36
Speaker 2: world is a subject to the laws of karma. What's
29:45
Speaker 2: not subject to the laws of karma is the spiritual realm,
29:50
Speaker 2: the transcendent realm that's beyond time and space, that's beyond
29:57
Speaker 2: causes and effects, beyond beyond forms and substances, the spirit,
30:06
Speaker 2: the world of spirit that has different names depending on
30:12
Speaker 2: the spiritual tradition you turn to, whether you call it
30:16
Speaker 2: brumen or Buddha nature or in the West God, that
30:22
Speaker 2: aspect of existence is beyond karma, and we can part
30:29
Speaker 2: of my book is the importance of recognizing that and
30:33
Speaker 2: accessing that aspect of existence, that eternal, infinite aspect of
30:40
Speaker 2: existence we call spirit because it's the best and most
30:45
Speaker 2: effective way of changing our karma, of putting ourselves in
30:53
Speaker 2: a position to act effectively, to create better karma going forward,
30:58
Speaker 2: and to neutralize the effect of past karma that's going
31:02
Speaker 2: to continue to come our way. So when you say,
31:07
Speaker 2: is anything not karma, the answer is no, because spirit
31:11
Speaker 2: is not a thing, but the spiritual realm that we
31:16
Speaker 2: think of as you know, divine and infinite and eternal.
31:22
Speaker 2: That's beyond karma.
31:25
Speaker 1: And in the book you share that karma is about
31:28
Speaker 1: doing the right things, but then also not about doing
31:32
Speaker 1: the wrong things. How do we protect ourselves in that way?
31:36
Speaker 2: Well, you know, as my grandmother when I was growing
31:41
Speaker 2: up in Brooklyn used to say, be nice. That's the
31:47
Speaker 2: short answer. You know, every spiritual tradition has codes of
31:56
Speaker 2: ethics and morality. Every secular system of ethics as dos
32:05
Speaker 2: and don'ts that are not just for the sake of
32:10
Speaker 2: social cohesion and social harmony and the welfare of others,
32:19
Speaker 2: but for our own well being. That said, in some ways,
32:27
Speaker 2: doing the right thing not doing the wrong thing is
32:30
Speaker 2: encoded in various ways in different systems, and I would
32:34
Speaker 2: invite listeners to turn to the system of ethics that
32:38
Speaker 2: is most familiar to them and most comfortable. In the book,
32:43
Speaker 2: I focused on the ethical systems that came from the
32:50
Speaker 2: East because they specifically address or assume that karma is
32:56
Speaker 2: part of this consideration. And when you look at that,
33:02
Speaker 2: and you look at any ethical system, some of it
33:06
Speaker 2: seems very simple. Be nice, do good things, be kind,
33:10
Speaker 2: be generous, be loving, don't be selfish, don't be cruel,
33:18
Speaker 2: don't hurt people. Essentially the golden rule. Do unto others
33:23
Speaker 2: as you would have them do unto you. There's some
33:26
Speaker 2: statement like that in every religious and spiritual tradition. There's
33:30
Speaker 2: nothing particularly Christian or Jewish or Hindu or whatever about that.
33:35
Speaker 2: It's universal. But then you get into nuances. So that's
33:42
Speaker 2: where the subtleties of karma come in, and you know
33:47
Speaker 2: different guidelines for how to be in the world and
33:50
Speaker 2: how to treat other people, and how to engage in
33:55
Speaker 2: your responsibilities to your community and or there are varieties
34:02
Speaker 2: of that, and I devote some space in the book
34:05
Speaker 2: to that, and I invite readers to explore that and
34:08
Speaker 2: go a little deeper than just the ordinary ethical codes,
34:15
Speaker 2: because it when you especially when you bring in the
34:18
Speaker 2: spiritual dimension, it gets quite nuanced and quite subtle. But basically,
34:25
Speaker 2: do the right thing, don't do the wrong thing, and
34:29
Speaker 2: be aware. One of the things that paying attention or
34:33
Speaker 2: assuming karma is real does for you is it may
34:36
Speaker 2: make you a little more likely to think, well, what's
34:40
Speaker 2: the right thing to do here? If I don't do
34:43
Speaker 2: the right thing, there'll be consequences for me, So I
34:48
Speaker 2: should do the right thing. And sometimes it's not necessarily obvious,
34:54
Speaker 2: because life is complicated and our relationships with people are complicated.
35:00
Speaker 2: So sometimes it takes a kind of intuitive sense of
35:04
Speaker 2: what's right. Sometimes it takes seeking guidance from others or
35:10
Speaker 2: you know, any other way we can make good decisions
35:14
Speaker 2: in the world.
35:16
Speaker 1: Well, you had just mentioned about the golden rule, that
35:19
Speaker 1: there's an iteration of that in virtually every religion around
35:24
Speaker 1: the world. Is something that I learned when I attended
35:27
Speaker 1: the New Seminary Interfaith back in the nineteen nineties, and
35:31
Speaker 1: also while attending that seminary, one of the spiritual lessons
35:35
Speaker 1: shared was everything is unfolding in divine order. We were
35:40
Speaker 1: taught that we may not see it with human eyes,
35:43
Speaker 1: but we will if we use our spiritual eyes. Is
35:46
Speaker 1: that a Western iteration of karma?
35:49
Speaker 2: No, well, it's Western in the sense that it's English
35:54
Speaker 2: and framed in a certain way. But you find the
35:59
Speaker 2: same prince in Hinduism and all the what's so called
36:05
Speaker 2: Dharmic traditions Hinduism, Buddhism especially, but also Jains and Seeks
36:12
Speaker 2: and Dallists. You'll see similar things and just expressed in
36:17
Speaker 2: different words, that everything happens for a reason, whether we
36:25
Speaker 2: can decipher it or not. And sometimes we can attune
36:32
Speaker 2: ourselves and have a sense of why things are happening
36:36
Speaker 2: or and if not, that's okay. Just knowing that things
36:43
Speaker 2: are unfolding on a level beyond our comprehension in ways
36:50
Speaker 2: that have antecedents in the past and are unfolding in
36:58
Speaker 2: a certain way. It doesn't absolve us of responsibility, though,
37:03
Speaker 2: and that's a danger in thinking, well, it's God's will
37:07
Speaker 2: or the universe is, you know, doing presenting us with
37:12
Speaker 2: you know, phenomena that we can't comprehend. But it's all good,
37:21
Speaker 2: it's all unfolding as it needs to do. It doesn't
37:25
Speaker 2: mean we don't intervene and we don't contribute, you know.
37:29
Speaker 2: Martin Luther King famously alluded to that when he said
37:33
Speaker 2: the arc of the moral universe is long, but it
37:37
Speaker 2: bends toward justice. And that's historically true. But we can't say, well,
37:44
Speaker 2: it'll bend toward justice, so we don't have to do anything.
37:49
Speaker 2: Maybe we need to help it bend or bend it
37:52
Speaker 2: more quickly in the right direction. But yes, And one
37:57
Speaker 2: of the things that's important about karma is there's a
38:02
Speaker 2: line in the Bagavad Gita that says that karma, the
38:08
Speaker 2: ways of karma, meaning the details the minutia are unfathomable
38:16
Speaker 2: beyond the comprehension of human beings. You see the same
38:19
Speaker 2: thing in the Book of Job. Essentially, you know, God
38:22
Speaker 2: appears to Job and says, you know, you can't understand
38:28
Speaker 2: this vast, complicated cosmos and why things unfold as they do.
38:36
Speaker 2: Don't even try. It's a waste of time. But if
38:39
Speaker 2: you accept this is what the universe is putting before
38:43
Speaker 2: me at this moment. I didn't anticipate it, I didn't
38:48
Speaker 2: want it, but I accept that it's the result of
38:51
Speaker 2: my past karma. You accept that, and then you take
38:55
Speaker 2: responsibility for how you respond in the moment, because what
39:01
Speaker 2: you do now in the face of reality will determine
39:05
Speaker 2: your karma going forward. We're always experiencing the effects of
39:10
Speaker 2: past karma. We're always creating future karma in the moment,
39:16
Speaker 2: in the present. And that you don't even have to
39:19
Speaker 2: accept all the laws of karma as a cosmic phenomenon
39:25
Speaker 2: to understand that. Any good psychotherapist will tell you, well,
39:31
Speaker 2: things are happening to you. Now, accept the reality, learn
39:36
Speaker 2: the lessons that have to be learned, and make the
39:39
Speaker 2: right choices going forward.
39:42
Speaker 1: You had touched upon this before. Tell us more about
39:45
Speaker 1: some of the karma spiritual practices.
39:49
Speaker 2: Well, I'm a big advocate and practitioner of meditation. I've
39:56
Speaker 2: been meditating every day since nineteen sixty eight, when I
40:03
Speaker 2: was a toddler. But so I have learned the effectiveness
40:15
Speaker 2: of meditation practices when they're done regularly and when they're
40:22
Speaker 2: deep and authentic. So that's always been the centerpiece of
40:28
Speaker 2: my spiritual repertoire and what I advocate for others some
40:36
Speaker 2: form of deep inward turning, whether you call it meditation
40:42
Speaker 2: or mindfulness or prayer or whatever. There's of course, one
40:48
Speaker 2: of the blessings of the modern world is that we
40:50
Speaker 2: have a tremendous variety of practices available at our fingertips
40:56
Speaker 2: that we can learn. It's also a bit of a
41:00
Speaker 2: because we have to make smart choices. There's a lot
41:03
Speaker 2: of nonsense out there as well as a lot of
41:06
Speaker 2: effective practices. But there are practices that would be suitable
41:11
Speaker 2: for everybody, and so it's a question of looking into
41:16
Speaker 2: them and finding what works for you and then supplementing it.
41:21
Speaker 2: I would say with practices that are done before meditation
41:25
Speaker 2: or after meditation, prayer, chanting, congregational worship, physical practices like
41:40
Speaker 2: yoga and tai chi. I mean, there's a huge variety,
41:44
Speaker 2: and I recommend that people find practices that suit their
41:48
Speaker 2: needs and that are effective. And how do we know
41:52
Speaker 2: they're effective? In my estimation, you judge it not by
41:58
Speaker 2: what happens during the practice, but how it affects your
42:01
Speaker 2: life afterward. Are you more at peace? Do you are
42:06
Speaker 2: you less subject to anger? And irruption of loss of
42:12
Speaker 2: temper or anxiety or depression. Are you more likely to
42:19
Speaker 2: behave in a kind and loving manner? Are you more
42:25
Speaker 2: likely to have maintained some peace and equanimity even when
42:29
Speaker 2: things go bad? So you can make smart decisions? Evaluate
42:35
Speaker 2: your practices. Don't just do them because someone says you
42:39
Speaker 2: should try different practices. But the key to me is
42:47
Speaker 2: setting aside time every day for some form of inward practice,
42:52
Speaker 2: because you will notice a difference in your life afterward.
42:58
Speaker 1: His new book Kermic Relief, Harnessing the Laws of Cause
43:02
Speaker 1: and Effect for a joyful, meaningful Life. Will be back
43:05
Speaker 1: with more of Phil Goldberg after these words on the
43:08
Speaker 1: Own Times Radio network.
43:11
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43:41
Speaker 1: Back with Phil Goldberg, we're talking about his brand new book,
43:44
Speaker 1: Karmak relief, harnessing the laws of cause and effect for
43:48
Speaker 1: a joyful, meaningful life. Phil What are the differences or
43:55
Speaker 1: are there differences between the words karma and dharma?
44:00
Speaker 2: Good one vic, Well, there are differences, but they're very complementary.
44:10
Speaker 2: Karma we've been talking about, so there's no need to
44:13
Speaker 2: define it. Dharma is an equally nuanced concept. It's often
44:22
Speaker 2: translated as duty duty, but that is rather inadequate. Dharma
44:34
Speaker 2: has to do with that which upholds, that which sustains.
44:42
Speaker 2: So something is in accord with dharma if it sustains life,
44:50
Speaker 2: if it sustains growth and development and well being, and
44:57
Speaker 2: it applies throughout the universe. But we think of it
45:01
Speaker 2: mainly in terms of our behavior. So each of us
45:06
Speaker 2: has a dharma to the people in our family. So
45:13
Speaker 2: I have the we have the dharma of a son
45:16
Speaker 2: or daughter to a parent. We have the dharma of
45:19
Speaker 2: a parent to our children. We have the dharma of
45:23
Speaker 2: a sibling to our brothers and sisters and so on
45:27
Speaker 2: and so forth. We have a dharma as a professional,
45:32
Speaker 2: uh which, so if you're a doctor, you have your
45:36
Speaker 2: dharma is to heal and do no harm. If you're
45:40
Speaker 2: hosting a podcast or your dharma is to convey information
45:44
Speaker 2: and truth. So there everything has a specific dharma, or
45:50
Speaker 2: in a traditional society it would be laid out as
45:54
Speaker 2: this is your duty, this is what you must do
45:57
Speaker 2: in this context, in that context text, in this role
46:02
Speaker 2: that you play in life, and so forth. That's how
46:05
Speaker 2: it was traditionally. These days, in our complex world, sometimes
46:10
Speaker 2: it's a little difficult to sort out what our dharmic
46:14
Speaker 2: duty or responsibility is in any situation. But essentially, if
46:20
Speaker 2: you are tuned into your dharma as a professional, as
46:25
Speaker 2: a family member, as a member of a community, in
46:29
Speaker 2: terms of your callings and responsibilities in life, you will
46:36
Speaker 2: behave in a way that's harmonious with your environment, and
46:40
Speaker 2: therefore you'll be creating good karma for yourself and others.
46:46
Speaker 2: If you go against dharma, then it's you're creating negative
46:52
Speaker 2: karma and unwanted consequences will follow, so they complement one
46:58
Speaker 2: another in that way.
47:02
Speaker 1: Does karma exist between conscious beings and material things that
47:07
Speaker 1: we do not attribute consciousness to.
47:10
Speaker 2: That's interesting, you would have to say yes, because we
47:15
Speaker 2: know we impact the material environment. Look what we look at,
47:23
Speaker 2: just look at climate change and the effects of human
47:27
Speaker 2: behavior on the natural environment. I mean, if you know,
47:33
Speaker 2: if we toss a can of motor oil in the
47:39
Speaker 2: local creek, we're creating that's we're doing something with karma consequences.
47:47
Speaker 2: And if we do that intentionally knowing it's harmful, presumably
47:55
Speaker 2: the consequences will come back to us in some way
47:58
Speaker 2: that we would not be happy about because we're doing
48:01
Speaker 2: something harmful to the natural world and potentially to other
48:09
Speaker 2: human beings. So, yes, everything we do has an effect
48:13
Speaker 2: that reverberates through the universe. It may affect I mean,
48:17
Speaker 2: what I'm saying now is affecting my teeth, my camera
48:24
Speaker 2: and my microphone and the desk in some way because
48:29
Speaker 2: words sounds have vibratory impact, but the effects are inconsequential,
48:36
Speaker 2: knowing nothing's happening that I could see to my desk
48:42
Speaker 2: or the monitor or my computer. But if I say
48:47
Speaker 2: something nasty or harmful, then that has consequences because of
48:57
Speaker 2: the meaning of my words, and not affect the desk,
49:02
Speaker 2: but it's going to affect the listeners and so forth.
49:06
Speaker 2: So you could say that everything we do as an
49:10
Speaker 2: effect on everything that it touches in terms of energy.
49:18
Speaker 2: But some of the effects are inconsequential and some are important.
49:24
Speaker 1: Is there a way of correcting karma for mistakes made
49:29
Speaker 1: during a lifetime.
49:31
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that's a critical part of what I wrote
49:35
Speaker 2: about in Karmic Relief. We've done things in the past,
49:41
Speaker 2: all of us, so unwanted. Things are going to happen.
49:45
Speaker 2: No matter how happy our lives are, no matter how
49:49
Speaker 2: blessed we are, no matter how evolved and deeply spiritual are,
49:54
Speaker 2: Stuff's going to happen. We're going to suffer loss, are
50:00
Speaker 2: going to get sick, We're going to lose loved ones,
50:05
Speaker 2: We're going to be disappointed. You know, our team will
50:09
Speaker 2: lose our you know, stock portfolio will go down or
50:16
Speaker 2: up or whatever. Things happen. The world is complex and
50:20
Speaker 2: there's always a certain amount of you could say, suffering
50:26
Speaker 2: or pain or discomfort or discontent that is inevitable in
50:32
Speaker 2: the midst of happiness and joy and love and all
50:35
Speaker 2: the good things. So can we ameliorate or neutralize the
50:45
Speaker 2: effects of negative karma from the past. The answer is
50:51
Speaker 2: decidedly yes. And all the teachings on karma emphasize that.
50:56
Speaker 2: There's a chapter in my book titled Avert the Danger
51:01
Speaker 2: that has not Yet Come, and one of the factors
51:05
Speaker 2: in that is, to behave in the present so that
51:10
Speaker 2: your karmic balance sheet, so to speak of good karma
51:16
Speaker 2: and bad karma, improves. And then if something negative happens,
51:24
Speaker 2: if challenges arise, whether they're physical or mental, or emotional
51:31
Speaker 2: or social, we're better equipped to respond effectively. And if
51:40
Speaker 2: we have a deep inner reservoir of stability and strength
51:47
Speaker 2: and inner peace, whence stuff happens, it won't shake us
51:54
Speaker 2: up as much, we won't suffer as much, and we'll
51:58
Speaker 2: be able to make smarter DEI visions about how to
52:01
Speaker 2: handle the situation and what to do going forward. A
52:06
Speaker 2: long time ago, I was blessed to hear a spiritual
52:11
Speaker 2: teacher use an analogy, very practical analogy. If you take
52:19
Speaker 2: out a loan for business purposes or mortgage or whatever,
52:25
Speaker 2: at a certain point, that loan is going to come
52:28
Speaker 2: do like that. You do things in the world, you behave,
52:34
Speaker 2: you make decisions, It's like taking out alone. The consequences
52:42
Speaker 2: will come back, and what you do will come do So,
52:46
Speaker 2: if you do something slightly dishonest or harmful to somebody
52:52
Speaker 2: else or selfish, it'll come back to you at some point.
52:56
Speaker 2: Then the question is what do you do in the interim.
52:59
Speaker 2: In the case of alone, if you're careless with your money,
53:05
Speaker 2: if you don't bother to earn enough, then when the
53:09
Speaker 2: loan comes due, it's going to be hard. It's going
53:13
Speaker 2: to hit you hard. You're going to suffer, You're going
53:16
Speaker 2: to be you know, it's going to be pain. It's
53:18
Speaker 2: going to be priced to pay. If, on the other hand,
53:22
Speaker 2: you're conscientious and you earn money and you're you save
53:27
Speaker 2: money and you're responsible with your money, when the loan
53:31
Speaker 2: comes due, it'll be you know, it'll roll off your back,
53:36
Speaker 2: you know, in a proverbial way, because it'll you have savings,
53:41
Speaker 2: you have a reservoir. And it's similar with our internal qualities.
53:49
Speaker 2: If we develop ourselves and in a way that gives
53:54
Speaker 2: us inner strength and stability. I mean, if bad karma happens,
54:03
Speaker 2: we'll handle it well. We'll look at it as a lesson,
54:09
Speaker 2: which is I think a terribly important part of karmic relief.
54:14
Speaker 2: Understanding whatever happens to be part of our lesson plan
54:19
Speaker 2: and ask ourselves, what can I learn from this, and
54:22
Speaker 2: how can I do things better moving forward so it
54:25
Speaker 2: doesn't happen again and good things happen instead, and so yes,
54:32
Speaker 2: that's a big part of the equation and I'm glad
54:35
Speaker 2: you asked the question.
54:37
Speaker 1: His new book, Karmak Relief, Harnessing the Laws of Cause
54:41
Speaker 1: and Effect for a joyful, meaningful Life, my guest Philip Goldberg.
54:46
Speaker 1: Phil one more time, please share with our listeners where
54:49
Speaker 1: theyn get all of your wonderful books and find out
54:51
Speaker 1: more about you.
54:53
Speaker 2: My books are available on the usual online booksellers, from
54:57
Speaker 2: Amazon to the Independence, and I hope local bookstores and
55:04
Speaker 2: libraries which I want to support. They can learn more
55:08
Speaker 2: about me at Philipgoldberg dot com. They can subscribe to
55:13
Speaker 2: my substack writings on practical spirituality, and they can tune
55:20
Speaker 2: into my interviews with wonderful guests on Spirit Matters podcast.
55:27
Speaker 2: Thanks you for asking, vic.
55:28
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, and I understand you're going to be making
55:31
Speaker 1: two appearances here in New York in December.
55:34
Speaker 2: Yes, book related for Karmic Relief. I'll be at Tibet
55:40
Speaker 2: House on December sixth, one o'clock at a Saturday, one
55:45
Speaker 2: o'clock in the afternoon, and I'll be at the Vedanta
55:49
Speaker 2: Society on the Upper West Side on Sunday morning, December seventh, Phil.
55:55
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us ensuring this wonderful
55:58
Speaker 1: wisdom that you've collected through the year.
56:00
Speaker 2: Thank you, Vic for having me and giving me the
56:03
Speaker 2: opportunity and for all the good work you do.
56:07
Speaker 1: And thank you for joining us on Vox Novis. I'm
56:10
Speaker 1: Victor la Voice Furman. Have a wonderful week.